Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 12:12, Colin Watson wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:00:46PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [You seem to be breaking attributions - who said this?] Why can't the installer ask what the CPU is and if it's an x86 then use kudzu and if it isn't don't? Wouldn't that work on all platforms? Or can't an x86 CPU be reliably detected? It might work. It would clearly work; there's a separate installer build for every architecture! But it blows off the ideology of consistency. I disagree; I think it's fine for the i386 installer to behave a little differently, particularly in inherently architecture-specific things like hardware detection. I think the debian-installer people think so too and will be using discover for automatic hardware detection at least on i386. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd also offer that unlike most other platforms, only IA-32 processor-based systems currently operates with a reasonably consistent memory architecture but wide ranging off the shelf plug-in hardware at this point. Compare that to M68K systems where each vendor tended to have relatively limited add-on hardware (generally only from that vendor,) but there were significantly different internal memory designs from one vendor to the next. When faced with those different considerations of the environment encountered for hardware detection, do you doubt that it could be anything but complicated? -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Good Debian-based distro
on Mon, Aug 11, 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: And Knoppix uses Kudzu And Kudzu is available as a Debian package Then why don't we (Debian) use Kudzu as an installation tool? How many of the 11 official architectures does Kudzu run on? P. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 05:03:03PM -0500, Kent West wrote: David Fokkema wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 03:51:36PM -0500, Kent West wrote: I put Debian on a SunBlade 150 last year. This week I plan to attempt to put it on four SunBlade 2000s for a university computer lab. I've also got it on my Macintosh G4. And I'm very glad Debian is ported to these archs, and that Debian on these archs works pretty much like it does on i386. Go Kent! I tried to boot a disk I created from the sparc-floppies on a computer which a fellow student had severely crashed and for which the tech people didn't have time to reinstall. Didn't work out, :-( It was an Ultra 5. What installer/branch did you use? David It's been a year, so my memory is hazy, but I probably started with Potato (or whatever was stable then) and then upgraded to Sid. I never could boot off of local media; I resorted to a tftp boot which worked dandy, and which I'll have to again do with the 2Ks. My problem exactly. It's a pity I don't have control over a tftp server. Anyway, the machine is reinstalled by now and I won't be able to touch it again in the sense of installing debian, :-/ David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Good Debian-based distro
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 02:28:38AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Loren M Lang [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Good Debian-based distro -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. I love debian much better than redhat based distros mostly for the packaging system, especially all those apt-* commands. Though for my less linux experienced friends, I have to install debian for them if I want to get them to use it. I've heard of Libranet, Corel, and Xandros OS that are debian based but haven't tried any of them. Any recommendations or should I just have them use redhat or mandrake? Corel - dead. Replaced by Xandros. The old Corel distribution, should you find it somewhere, can be upgraded to Debian but is basically unsupported. Libranet - small Canadian company. Well packaged as I understand it. Xandros - Successor in title to Corel. Well packaged, relatively complete desktop system as I understand it. Fairly high cost. Lindows - ask others opinion on this one. Well packaged but high priced. All of the above are commercial distributions with their own agendas. You might want to try burning them a copy of Knoppix and giving it to them to play with. Knoppix is essentially Debian unstable + a small amount. Runs in RAM from CDROM. Pros: Very full featured. One man's distribution for himself - put together exceedingly well. Hardware autodetection excellent. Usability good. Regularly updated. The basis for Morphix and a whole host of other live CD's. Contains about 2.8 GB on a 700M CDROM. Will install to hard disk with one command, taking with it all the X settings etc. that have been autodetected. Cons: Be aware that you run as root initially. No clear upgrade path, though possibly direct to Debian unstable. (Knoppix today is actually slightly ahead - XFree 4.3 is in there). Free in cost - it may contain a small amount of what Debian would consider non-free All the above IMHO - I also help maintain the Distributions HOWTO in English so would appreciate any Debian based distro's I've missed. Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: The Social Contract states we will be guided by the needs of our users. You left out ...and the free software community the Free Software community is not interested in being locked into architectures any more than it is interested in being locked into operating systems. Has anyone done a poll on how many Debian users still run non-i386 systems? Judging by the the people who came to the Debian booth at Linuxworld in new York earlier this year, quite a few. For several architectures, Debian is the only decent choice if you want to run Linux. Sure portability sounds nice, but what is a hppa, anyway? How many users still run sparcs? Why should I as a user have to spend hours fiddling with obscure hardware setup issues and avoid recommending Debian to others so that Debian can run identically on every platform around. Leave this goal to NetBSD. Why should I as a developer care you have to spend hours fiddling with hardware? Leave that goal to Mandrake :-) Anyway, why do we think that portability is a top priority? Often times programmers make assumptions that can lead to subtle bugs which are only revealed when you try and compile in a different environment. Debians' wide range of architectures mean we can catch many of these bugs and fix them. This makes the software better overall for everyone, even people who only use i386. No one is denying the present Debian installer falls short of first class. A replacement will be done. But it will be done right rather than quickly. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. Search the archives and find out _why_ Knoppix has better hardware detection. This has been a large thread a few months ago. David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:09:45 +0100 Peter Whysall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Mon, Aug 11, 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Is there a buzzword to reference? Yes. Portability. The same Debian Installer runs on 11 different architectures. Knoppix doesn't. If a decision was made to break the installer on platforms such as hppa and sparc in favour of superduper hardware detection on x86, I for one would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Why can't the installer ask what the CPU is and if it's an x86 then use kudzu and if it isn't don't? Wouldn't that work on all platforms? Or can't an x86 CPU be reliably detected? It might work. But it blows off the ideology of consistency. The best you (should) strive for is a manual intervention to use kudzu in lieu of the other available tools. Kind of like using bastille for security. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Because Debian is available for nearly ever hardware out there. http://www.debian.org/ports Redhat supports significantly less platforms. http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/platform/linux/redhat.com/dist/linux/9/en/os/ shows only i386. They can afford to tailor their installer for just that one architecture. That is a summary of the thread about why Knoppix has better detection. They also focus on i386. Excellent point! If we assume that I'm narrowly focused on i386 architecture only. How do you utilize Kudzu in Debian for configuring new installs? I'm not sure, I've always preferred to have a basic knowledge of my hardware and set everything myself. If a new installer comes out, I'll probably be the only one using the old woody disks and dist-upgrading. I've actually come to like the current installer. Admittedly it isn't consistent with the ideology of Debian having a wide range of support for hardware and a consistent interface for installation, but the reality is that I have a number of installations to get done in a big fat hurry and could really benefit... If your looking to do identical systems, look at the fully automatic installer. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ apt-cache show fai -- -johann koenig Now Playing: Huntingtons - Potty Mouth : Punk Vs. Emo (Disc 1 - Punk) Today is Pungenday, the 4th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3169 My public pgp key: http://mental-graffiti.com/pgp/johannkoenig.pgp pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Aug 09, 2003 at 11:48:14PM -0700, Loren M Lang wrote: I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. Xandros? Knoppix? - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/NvIDsClmdIs2Ki8RAmscAJ4nGGguT7G0tIRfOBPxk1kkiqpNSQCfWbaP gqOzqqE6awPW0LCUaYWDbMY= =Ykl0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
on Tue, Aug 12, 2003, Andrew Malcolmson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The Social Contract states we will be guided by the needs of our users. Has anyone done a poll on how many Debian users still run non-i386 systems? You seem bothered about it. Are you volunteering? Sure portability sounds nice, but what is a hppa, anyway? How many users still run sparcs? Why should I as a user have to spend hours fiddling with obscure hardware setup issues and avoid recommending Debian to others so that Debian can run identically on every platform around. Leave this goal to NetBSD. Translation: I've got a PC, so everyone else can go fuck themselves. Go run a nasty, hard-to-manage BSD UNIX instead. If you're getting into the portability argument and you cannot even be bothered to go to the ports page to look up what hppa means... well. That's lazy. You can't even be bothered to read the FAQ that addresses *this very question*: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-compat.en.html#s-arches Obscure hardware setup issues? All Debian 3.0 asked me was what make and model my video card was. Given that I've still got the box, identifying it as an nVidia GeForce 4 wasn't TOO stressful. Anyway, why do we think that portability is a top priority? Can someone show me Debian's policy statements on this? Read part 4 of the social contract: We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environment. You sound as though you don't understand that there are no second-class architectures in Debian; if you want an i386-centric Linux, go play with Red Hat or Mandrake. Debian is about (among other things) not excluding people just because their hardware isn't like yours. Regards, Peter. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:23:24PM +0200, David Fokkema wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 07:13:10AM -0500, Kent West wrote: Bummer. I had administrator access to our Sparc server for using as a tftp server, but I reckon in a case like yours, you might could have created a mini-LAN with a 4-port hub/switch using the Ultra 5 and any Debian box you have and configure your Debian box to be a tftp server. I've never done it, but it seems like it would probably work. Oh well, maybe next time :-) Indeed. I'd love to see debian on a sparc, :-) It's pretty slick. I've got an Ultra 60 running debian; I installed using the tftp method (I used a debian i386 system as the tftp server). I also had to set up a RARP server; rarpd works great if you are running 2.4.x. I've had debian running on an Ultra 30 as well as some SparcStation 5s. I love that administration is the same interface as that on my i386 boxes. The Ultra 60 is an SNMP poller machine right now; it does a lot of work and is rock solid. I got the whole thing for under $1000 buying piecemeal off ebay. One feature I really like is the boot rom; I run RAID1 root and the machine will try each disk in turn if the first disk(s) has failed. Very few i386 BIOSes support this ... -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] No. Should I include quotations after my reply? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
I agree, Koppix does a great job of hardware detection and system configuration. This is one thing that tends to scare off linux neophites. Getting this *right* is very important IMHO, and Knoppix is a big step in the right direction in that respect. The second one is keeping the system up to date, that I _know_ Debian is great at, as far a Knoppix is concerned, I would expect that givent that the /etc/apt/sources.list is Debian based, that it should be the same. cheers On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. -- Luc Lefebvre In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few. Shunryu Suzuki Key fingerprint = D2E5 5E35 B910 6F4E 0242 EC63 0FD9 96D0 C7F4 784E -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
David Fokkema wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 05:03:03PM -0500, Kent West wrote: It's been a year, so my memory is hazy, but I probably started with Potato (or whatever was stable then) and then upgraded to Sid. I never could boot [the Sparc SunBlade 150] off of local media; I resorted to a tftp boot which worked dandy, and which I'll have to again do with the SunBlade 2000s. My problem exactly. It's a pity I don't have control over a tftp server. Anyway, the machine is reinstalled by now and I won't be able to touch it again in the sense of installing debian, :-/ Bummer. I had administrator access to our Sparc server for using as a tftp server, but I reckon in a case like yours, you might could have created a mini-LAN with a 4-port hub/switch using the Ultra 5 and any Debian box you have and configure your Debian box to be a tftp server. I've never done it, but it seems like it would probably work. Oh well, maybe next time :-) -- Kent West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
David Fokkema wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 03:51:36PM -0500, Kent West wrote: I put Debian on a SunBlade 150 last year. This week I plan to attempt to put it on four SunBlade 2000s for a university computer lab. I've also got it on my Macintosh G4. And I'm very glad Debian is ported to these archs, and that Debian on these archs works pretty much like it does on i386. Go Kent! I tried to boot a disk I created from the sparc-floppies on a computer which a fellow student had severely crashed and for which the tech people didn't have time to reinstall. Didn't work out, :-( It was an Ultra 5. What installer/branch did you use? David It's been a year, so my memory is hazy, but I probably started with Potato (or whatever was stable then) and then upgraded to Sid. I never could boot off of local media; I resorted to a tftp boot which worked dandy, and which I'll have to again do with the 2Ks. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 01:48, Loren M Lang wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. I love debian much better than redhat based distros mostly for the packaging system, especially all those apt-* commands. Though for my less linux experienced friends, I have to install debian for them if I want to get them to use it. I've heard of Libranet, Corel, and Xandros OS that are debian based but haven't tried any of them. Any recommendations or should I just have them use redhat or mandrake? Libranet is very user friendly. It has a text-mode installer, but does a good job of h/w detection. It's KDE based, if that's a concern. -- +---+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA| | | | Man, I'm pretty. Hoo Hah! | |Johnny Bravo | +---+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:00:46PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [You seem to be breaking attributions - who said this?] Why can't the installer ask what the CPU is and if it's an x86 then use kudzu and if it isn't don't? Wouldn't that work on all platforms? Or can't an x86 CPU be reliably detected? It might work. It would clearly work; there's a separate installer build for every architecture! But it blows off the ideology of consistency. I disagree; I think it's fine for the i386 installer to behave a little differently, particularly in inherently architecture-specific things like hardware detection. I think the debian-installer people think so too and will be using discover for automatic hardware detection at least on i386. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
Andrew Malcolmson wrote: Sure portability sounds nice, but what is a hppa, anyway? How many users still run sparcs? Why should I as a user have to I put Debian on a SunBlade 150 last year. This week I plan to attempt to put it on four SunBlade 2000s for a university computer lab. I've also got it on my Macintosh G4. And I'm very glad Debian is ported to these archs, and that Debian on these archs works pretty much like it does on i386. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 07:13:10AM -0500, Kent West wrote: David Fokkema wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 05:03:03PM -0500, Kent West wrote: It's been a year, so my memory is hazy, but I probably started with Potato (or whatever was stable then) and then upgraded to Sid. I never could boot [the Sparc SunBlade 150] off of local media; I resorted to a tftp boot which worked dandy, and which I'll have to again do with the SunBlade 2000s. My problem exactly. It's a pity I don't have control over a tftp server. Anyway, the machine is reinstalled by now and I won't be able to touch it again in the sense of installing debian, :-/ Bummer. I had administrator access to our Sparc server for using as a tftp server, but I reckon in a case like yours, you might could have created a mini-LAN with a 4-port hub/switch using the Ultra 5 and any Debian box you have and configure your Debian box to be a tftp server. I've never done it, but it seems like it would probably work. Oh well, maybe next time :-) Indeed. I'd love to see debian on a sparc, :-) David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 03:51:36PM -0500, Kent West wrote: Andrew Malcolmson wrote: Sure portability sounds nice, but what is a hppa, anyway? How many users still run sparcs? Why should I as a user have to I put Debian on a SunBlade 150 last year. This week I plan to attempt to put it on four SunBlade 2000s for a university computer lab. I've also got it on my Macintosh G4. And I'm very glad Debian is ported to these archs, and that Debian on these archs works pretty much like it does on i386. Go Kent! I tried to boot a disk I created from the sparc-floppies on a computer which a fellow student had severely crashed and for which the tech people didn't have time to reinstall. Didn't work out, :-( It was an Ultra 5. What installer/branch did you use? David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. Search the archives and find out _why_ Knoppix has better hardware detection. This has been a large thread a few months ago. David A quickie search shows that Knoppix uses Kudzu which is originally supplied by RedHat and is now available as a Debian package. So... If Knoppix has better hardware detection than base Debian And Knoppix uses Kudzu And Kudzu is available as a Debian package Then why don't we (Debian) use Kudzu as an installation tool? Do we still really need kudzu still now that linux has hotpluging support for usb, pci and firewire? Maybe for supporting old isa hw. Even though it's called hotplug, it should be able to also detect hardware on the initial boot as well, it does for usb by calling usb.rc, why can't there be a pci.rc that does the same thing and at least parially remove the need for kudzu and Xconfigurator. Maybe I'll have to look into writing that... - -- I sense much NT in you. NT leads to Bluescreen. Bluescreen leads to downtime. Downtime leads to suffering. NT is the path to the darkside. Powerful Unix is. Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD 835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/OHxF+vN6RuSjKAwRAg5cAJ4zsvhDNb+FSVf5VZr+zctr/I4MDgCeJdnL cDsJ6WVIUL+VVymKmBIOKI4= =7zmO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
Luc Lefebvre wrote: I agree, Koppix does a great job of hardware detection and system configuration. This is one thing that tends to scare off linux neophites. Getting this *right* is very important IMHO, and Knoppix is a big step in the right direction in that respect. The second one is keeping the system up to date, that I _know_ Debian is great at, as far a Knoppix is concerned, I would expect that givent that the /etc/apt/sources.list is Debian based, that it should be the same. cheers On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. The Social Contract states we will be guided by the needs of our users. Has anyone done a poll on how many Debian users still run non-i386 systems? Sure portability sounds nice, but what is a hppa, anyway? How many users still run sparcs? Why should I as a user have to spend hours fiddling with obscure hardware setup issues and avoid recommending Debian to others so that Debian can run identically on every platform around. Leave this goal to NetBSD. Anyway, why do we think that portability is a top priority? Can someone show me Debian's policy statements on this? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:09:45 +0100 Peter Whysall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Mon, Aug 11, 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Is there a buzzword to reference? Yes. Portability. The same Debian Installer runs on 11 different architectures. Knoppix doesn't. If a decision was made to break the installer on platforms such as hppa and sparc in favour of superduper hardware detection on x86, I for one would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Why can't the installer ask what the CPU is and if it's an x86 then use kudzu and if it isn't don't? Wouldn't that work on all platforms? Or can't an x86 CPU be reliably detected? - Richard. -- Richard Kimber http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:51:15 +0100 Richard Kimber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:09:45 +0100 Peter Whysall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Mon, Aug 11, 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Is there a buzzword to reference? Yes. Portability. The same Debian Installer runs on 11 different architectures. Knoppix doesn't. If a decision was made to break the installer on platforms such as hppa and sparc in favour of superduper hardware detection on x86, I for one would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Why can't the installer ask what the CPU is and if it's an x86 then use kudzu and if it isn't don't? Wouldn't that work on all platforms? Or can't an x86 CPU be reliably detected? The installer is currently being rewritten. I went looking for a reference page, but I don't have much time, and nothing came up quickly. If you want to find it, here are some suggested keywords: automatic hardware detection debian installer -- -johann koenig Now Playing: Bad Religion - Generator : Punk-O-Rama (Vol. 4) Today is Pungenday, the 4th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3169 My public pgp key: http://mental-graffiti.com/pgp/johannkoenig.pgp pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Sat, Aug 09, 2003 at 11:48:14PM -0700, Loren M Lang wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. I love debian much better than redhat based distros mostly for the packaging system, especially all those apt-* commands. Though for my less linux experienced friends, I have to install debian for them if I want to get them to use it. I've heard of Libranet, Corel, and Xandros OS that are debian based but haven't tried any of them. Any recommendations or should I just have them use redhat or mandrake? My father, a linux newbie, got a bit frustrated with Debian. Nice system, sure, but how to print from scribus, mozilla, openoffice? He got CUPS working at my suggestion, but then openoffice would still not print correctly, etc. etc. He tried to get it working for a week or two (debian, not just printing) and then installed Knoppix to his hard drive (without my help, and without overwriting the wrong partitions, :-) Knoppix is free, debian-based, i386-only, mostly a mix from testing and unstable. The idea is that the creator has thought hard about what packages to install and how to configure them. So, insert the CD, (run hdinstall to install everything to the hard drive), and print, burn, scan, write, see, hear, create, without having much to configure, ;-) He got it all figured out within two days, ;-) From my point of view, it only has one major drawback: everything _is_ configured and there is a _huge_ sources list. But from the viewpoint of a newbie, it works _very_ nice. HTH, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Because Debian is available for nearly ever hardware out there. http://www.debian.org/ports Redhat supports significantly less platforms. http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/platform/linux/redhat.com/dist/linux/9/en/os/ shows only i386. They can afford to tailor their installer for just that one architecture. That is a summary of the thread about why Knoppix has better detection. They also focus on i386. -- Excellent point! If we assume that I'm narrowly focused on i386 architecture only. How do you utilize Kudzu in Debian for configuring new installs? Admittedly it isn't consistent with the ideology of Debian having a wide range of support for hardware and a consistent interface for installation, but the reality is that I have a number of installations to get done in a big fat hurry and could really benefit... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:26, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 02:28:38AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Loren M Lang [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Good Debian-based distro You might want to try burning them a copy of Knoppix and giving it to them to play with. Knoppix is essentially Debian unstable + a small amount. Runs in RAM from CDROM. Pros: Very full featured. One man's distribution for himself - put together exceedingly well. Hardware autodetection excellent. Usability good. Regularly updated. The basis for Morphix and a whole host of other live CD's. Contains about 2.8 GB on a 700M CDROM. Will install to hard disk with one command, taking with it all the X settings etc. that have been autodetected. Cons: Be aware that you run as root initially. No clear upgrade path, though possibly direct to Debian unstable. (Knoppix today is actually slightly ahead - XFree 4.3 is in there). Free in cost - it may contain a small amount of what Debian would consider non-free All the above IMHO - I also help maintain the Distributions HOWTO in English so would appreciate any Debian based distro's I've missed. I would add Morphix, it is based on Knoppix but seems to be built to facilitate users packaging their own distro. Last I looked it comes in a few flavours. MorphixBase MorphixCombined-Game MorphixCombined-LightGUI MorphixCombined-HeavyGUI MorphixCombined-KDE - or something like that google gets it's page HTH Bob Parker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. Search the archives and find out _why_ Knoppix has better hardware detection. This has been a large thread a few months ago. David A quickie search shows that Knoppix uses Kudzu which is originally supplied by RedHat and is now available as a Debian package. So... If Knoppix has better hardware detection than base Debian And Knoppix uses Kudzu And Kudzu is available as a Debian package Then why don't we (Debian) use Kudzu as an installation tool? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
on Mon, Aug 11, 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Is there a buzzword to reference? Yes. Portability. The same Debian Installer runs on 11 different architectures. Knoppix doesn't. If a decision was made to break the installer on platforms such as hppa and sparc in favour of superduper hardware detection on x86, I for one would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Regards Peter. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:40 -0400 (EDT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A quickie search shows that Knoppix uses Kudzu which is originally supplied by RedHat and is now available as a Debian package. So... If Knoppix has better hardware detection than base Debian And Knoppix uses Kudzu And Kudzu is available as a Debian package Then why don't we (Debian) use Kudzu as an installation tool? Because Debian is available for nearly ever hardware out there. http://www.debian.org/ports Redhat supports significantly less platforms. http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/platform/linux/redhat.com/dist/linux/9/en/os/ shows only i386. They can afford to tailor their installer for just that one architecture. That is a summary of the thread about why Knoppix has better detection. They also focus on i386. -- -johann koenig Now Playing: Rancid - 1998 : Punk-O-Rama (Vol. 4) Today is Pungenday, the 4th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3169 My public pgp key: http://mental-graffiti.com/pgp/johannkoenig.pgp pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 09:35:18AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may want to have a look at knoppix, they have a live CD so that folks can experiment with it. It can then bee installed to HD if folks wish to do so. Best of all it's Debian based... I have had a look at it and was impressed by it. cheers I found the hardware detection excellent! IMHO this is one area that Debian needs some work. Search the archives and find out _why_ Knoppix has better hardware detection. This has been a large thread a few months ago. David Is there a buzzword to reference? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Because Debian is available for nearly ever hardware out there. http://www.debian.org/ports Redhat supports significantly less platforms. http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/platform/linux/redhat.com/dist/linux/9/en/os/ shows only i386. They can afford to tailor their installer for just that one architecture. That is a summary of the thread about why Knoppix has better detection. They also focus on i386. Excellent point! If we assume that I'm narrowly focused on i386 architecture only. How do you utilize Kudzu in Debian for configuring new installs? I'm not sure, I've always preferred to have a basic knowledge of my hardware and set everything myself. If a new installer comes out, I'll probably be the only one using the old woody disks and dist-upgrading. I've actually come to like the current installer. I don't mind it except for configuring X. I haven't really tried other hardware, though I have a ton weird stuff available: floppy based tape drive parallel port zip disk various printers usb cameras from 1990's I even have a Macintosh SCSI-1 hard drive case that, in theory, should hook up to to an existing Linux box as an external SCSI device. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Good Debian-based distro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. I love debian much better than redhat based distros mostly for the packaging system, especially all those apt-* commands. Though for my less linux experienced friends, I have to install debian for them if I want to get them to use it. I've heard of Libranet, Corel, and Xandros OS that are debian based but haven't tried any of them. Any recommendations or should I just have them use redhat or mandrake? - -- I sense much NT in you. NT leads to Bluescreen. Bluescreen leads to downtime. Downtime leads to suffering. NT is the path to the darkside. Powerful Unix is. Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD 835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Neq5+vN6RuSjKAwRAolvAKCUN9Do5W/dd5tkSQaXnIjsLscAMQCfao73 ZJOM17n4wYaKXBRfWteLx28= =aS6R -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Debian-based distro
On Sunday 10 August 2003 8:48 am, Loren M Lang wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm looking for a good debian-based distro with a good and user friendly install program. I love debian much better than redhat based distros mostly for the packaging system, especially all those apt-* commands. Though for my less linux experienced friends, I have to install debian for them if I want to get them to use it. I've heard of Libranet, Corel, and Xandros OS that are debian based but haven't tried any of them. Any recommendations or should I just have them use redhat or mandrake? Knoppix. It's almost magic. The only problem is that it is set up to run from the distribution CD, and the script to install to the hard disk is not announced very clearly. In fact, they warn you that this script is only in early stage of development. However, it works fine, with the proviso that you have to install into one partition (2.2GB, approx) - if you want to separate /home onto another partition, this is trivial to do straight after the installation. The script is called knx-hdinstall or kpx-fdinstall or something permutation like that, and runs from the command line when you open a console in Knoppix (i.e. it is already on the path). There are a few helpful comments about the hd install out there - google knoppix hard disk install will find them. You will have to set up networking afterwards, but it does an amazing job of setting everything up. HTH -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
