Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed 21 Feb 2024 at 23:16:41 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > > keyboards. > > > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. > > And is their layout identical? No: Great Britain, GB, and United States, US. British keyboards have an extra key left of Z; yes, that Z. It's engraved with \|. There is also an extra key in the ASDFG… row. It's left of the Return key, which has a different shape, being merged with the key above, ie the \| key. Of course, that reduces the number of keys in the QWERTY… row. Which in turn leads to displacements of the following symbols: ~, @, #, \, |, ", and allows the addition of two more: ¬ and £. > If isn't, do all the keys on both > keyboards what you expect them to do? Yes, as engraved. There are a lot of shifted key combinations too, but on the whole I prefer to use Compose sequences, as I find them more logical. I got used to using them long before I got my first PC. Rather than remembering which shifted key types ©, I prefer typing CapsLock c o (or o c) instead. And I've chosen some of the more obscure ones for myself, eg CapsLock # d s for 턪 and CapsLock # d b for 턫. > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? The OS sends a code and the keyboard returns some bytes, which the OS interprets as a description. For a keyboard as old as the IBM, I guess it would be fairly rudimentary, but perhaps it's more expansive for modern keyboards. I think the OS can also send programming codes to some modern keyboards to modify their behaviour. The properties that udev discovers and deduces can be found in /run/udev/data/c13\:* (amongst a load of other character devices). The implications of those properties would be found, presumably, in the drivers. [ … ] > But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys > like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is > Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver > substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order > to make the keyobard usable for PCs. I don't know anything about this keyboard apart from reading that new ones contain some model of Raspberry, making it easier to reflash the controller. > Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that > don't exist (for PCs)? Why would the kernel developers restrict themselves to one architecture? [ … ] > You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I think F18 is being treated as a Left-shifted F6, except that it releases the Shift before releasing F6, whereas a typist would normally release Shift after F6. > I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only > by accidident. > > > > For the backtab key it says: > > > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > > NumLock appears to be on. > > It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key > labeled Dup/Insert. OK, I actually thought it might be the key left of Dup/Insert because I didn't know that symbol, whereas the key left of Delete appears to have the same symbol as the keyboard's Enter key (almost next to it). It looks as if it sends codes similar to F18, using Control instead of Shift, but in the same unconventional order. AFAICT the two keys you pressed happen to be ones that don't react to NumLock being set. > > Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys. > > Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard > for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys? https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/albums/72157650296043599/with/15857592493 looks ancient enough not to be USB, but modern enough to have a PS/2 plug. [ … ] > > This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11 > > (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep. > > Such a Fn key is for laptops; I don't want one on a normal keyboard. The idea behind this is that you can use the wireless
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > [...] > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > keyboards. > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. And is their layout identical? If isn't, do all the keys on both keyboards what you expect them to do? > In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the > table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two > screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > > key combinations instead? > > > > > > That would be difficult: > > I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half > a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: I have no intention of doing something like that. > "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or > even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there > duplicate keys?" > > That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > > > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. > > I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in > udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. Perhaps what I have been reading wasn't true, or things have changed and it is now possible to have more keys. It was sufficiently long ago for things to have been changed. But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order to make the keyobard usable for PCs. Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that don't exist (for PCs)? > > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > > and how does xev identify them? > > > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. > > It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > > > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] > > Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear > to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only by accidident. > > For the backtab key it says: > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > NumLock appears to be on. It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key labeled Dup/Insert. > > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. > > That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24. > Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys. Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys? > > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > > > engraved with "Enter",
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > [...] > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > keyboards. Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > key combinations instead? > > > > That would be difficult: I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys?" That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > and how does xev identify them? > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. > For the backtab key it says: Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, NumLock appears to be on. > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24. Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved > > with "-". > > I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the > symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer > on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would originally have produced. > > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is > > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending > > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's > great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on > every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like > F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my > workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried. This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11 (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep. > > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added > > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted > > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which > > is a far more important feature. > > It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than > one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to. Sure it is, and when you do that, it's even more important to be able to change the layout because you have to do it for all the languages you're used to typing in --- and for all the keyboards you're using. I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between keyboards. I don't know if that's possible, but I expect it to be possible since USB makes it easily possible to have multiple keyboards connected at the same time. So like in gnome settings, all the connected keyboards need to show up so that I can pick a layout for each and then change their layouts as I need them. If that doesn't work it's a bug. Actually, I just tried it and it doesn't work :( The German keyboard gets an US layout just like the US keyboard; it doesn't show up in gnome settings, and there is no way to select a keyboard and to pick a layout for it. That really sucks --- I can only assume that developers don't want to have to do anything with keyboard layouts, which might explain why it has always been a nightmare to get a keyboard to work right and still is. > > > > [...] > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > > > shifting ones (win and fn). > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > key combinations instead? > > That would be difficult: That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. About 20 years ago I've seen a machine with terminals running some HP Unix that had keyboards like that. They were networked through token ring coax cables and had been used to run some CAD software which had been replaced with, IIRC, autocad, but there were still files people sometimes needed to retrieve from them, via NFS IIRC. They were nice keyboards and had connectors that wouldn't fit any PC. > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > and how does xev identify them? I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. When I press F18, for example, wev says: , | [11: wl_data_device] selection: id: 4278190081 | [13: wl_pointer] motion: time: 665008611; x, y: 617.781250, 467.316406 | [13: wl_pointer] frame | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270273; time: 665012185; key: 50; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270274; group: 0 | depressed: 0001: Shift | latched: | locked: 0010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270275; time: 665012185; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: F6 (65475), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270276; time: 665012313; key: 50; state: 0 (released) | sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270277; group: 0 |
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > [...] > > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. > > > > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject > > line. > > It doesn't concern me. > > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which > is a far more important feature. It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to. > > > [...] > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > > shifting ones (win and fn). > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > key combinations instead? That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, and how does xev identify them? The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved with "-". The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > > all now. > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > No, it's about keyboards and computers. Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up? As for figuring out keyboards, I would say that Xorg does a pretty flexible job. There are plenty of preselected options available in /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst, and I guess you can override all you like with /etc/X11/xkb/ to get whatever you like. Not that I've needed to do so, as the options provided work here AFAICT. > Can you show me a keyboard > that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout > so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any > configuration required? No, not without /any/ configuration. I'm guessing that you mean an EDID-like PROM that completely describes the layout of every key. I don't know that keyboard manufacturers have ever looked at something like that, at least for detached keyboards. But even then, it's likely that some configuration would be necessary as people exercise their own preferences over at least such things as CapsLock's behaviour and placement. If such advances led to an inability to tweak the layout, I'd see that as a backward step. > I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian > or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the > keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary. > When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the > keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the > installation. > > I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US > one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one > keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't > make a difference. > > I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens > when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I > haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German > keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that > be? > > Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you > connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
Greg writes: > To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a > different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think > *most* people would assume the former. I think the possibility of *altering* the keyboard layout would not even occur to most users. -- John Hasler j...@sugarbit.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 06:58:39AM +0100, hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > layouts. No, I can assure you, it is ambiguous. To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think *most* people would assume the former. Compare to "change clothing". If a parent says they want you to go upstairs and change your shirt, they *most likely* mean they want you to select a different shirt. They would be quite surprised if you altered your shirt with a knife and some magic markers.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. > > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject > line. It doesn't concern me. > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and never about switching between different keyboards or between different layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which is a far more important feature. > > [...] > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > shifting ones (win and fn). 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending key combinations instead? > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > all now. > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. No, it's about keyboards and computers. Can you show me a keyboard that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any configuration required? I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary. When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the installation. I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't make a difference. I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that be? Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a layout for each one manually? > > [...] > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. > > I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references > that say something quite different. About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it? What are those references? I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time. > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > users haven't noticed yet. > > > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > > alternative for servers. > > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have > an awful lot of them. I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't understand.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > > been around for 30 years. > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject line. It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been > troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added > over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every > keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays > were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines > manually. My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are shifting ones (win and fn). > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > all now. I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references that say something quite different. > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > users haven't noticed yet. > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > alternative for servers. I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have an awful lot of them. Cheers, David.
solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > [...] > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift. Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :) [ids] * [main] ` = ~ [shift] ` = ` [1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the > context of GNOME and I don't need that again. Discussions are tiresome, yes. Knowing it won't go well, it's important to keep them short. > But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better. I'm not very optimistic. But I suspect that a thousand similar bug reports are harder to discard as marginal than one or two. Stefan
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: > hw wrote: > > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > [...] > > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > > > four major ways: > > > > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. > > If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are > mentioned as the second of the four ways. Strange, it's also in the part you quoted. I don't understand how I missed that, sorry.
Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:32 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: > > [...] > > > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String > > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...] > > Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"... Hm I guess that's one way of controlling someone. For a computer, you might have to put some variable resistors into a buch of wires to make it work. But they're way too digital for that.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a > Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the > A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for > Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I > used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the > A), and would work both in X and in console mode. Wow that's a very tall order! > The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, > was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is > managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different > keyboard models. > > This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, > and somewhat poorly documented. At least there is a way :) Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere? I was thinking if I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then modify it they way I need it. Or is that approach not even feasible? I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done with xmodmap. > And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI > config tools for it. Well, I prefer that. > Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev. Is wayland using this XKB thing? When I run 'setxkbmap -print -verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an Xwayland server'. Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or that we're not supposed to use XKB? > https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ > (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa > > Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were > /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) That's an interesting file indeed! So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not having to press Shift. I. e. the key is the first key on top row of my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get a tilde. Wev says 'key: 49'. That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file. Now what? > /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package) According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist. > Gotchas include: > Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) > Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb. > For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the > same as the example/sample config files. It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards. That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop. Perhaps he would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report as described in the file. Then these keys may end up working for everyone with such a laptop. > If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of > your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) > instead of giving an error message. Hm, that's bad ... Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case. I could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to specify my keyboard to make settings for it.
Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: [...] > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...] Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"... =:-o Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard > > layout? > > I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, > and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where > you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for > Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I > used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the > A), and would work both in X and in console mode. > > The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, > was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is > managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different > keyboard models. > > This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, > and somewhat poorly documented. And it's an edit-the-configfile > system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it. > > It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a > scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean > them up. The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour > (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it > would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself. > > Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input > https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ > (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent. > Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were > /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) > /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev > package) > > Gotchas include: > Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) > Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) > For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the > same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev > will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you > might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message. >
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 10:57 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > [...] > OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to > my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang > up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed > to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out > how to map that to a single insert. That is another good example that we need to be able to change the keyboard layout. When these strange keys create scan codes and you're using Xorg, it's probably easy to remap them with xmodmap. Just change their mapping to what usually the insert key is mapped to. > [...] > As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met > many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key. It's 'Ctrl'. There is no German translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong. A more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong for this key. If someone says 'String' that only shows that they have no clue what they're talking about. 'Strg' means nothing. It's another failure like 'allgemeine Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of 'segementation fault'. 'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing. A lot of things don't translate into German and the people who are creating such translations don't know what the term they are trying to translate means and thus come up with such nonsense. I never read any documentation in German because the transation is always garbage and not understandable; you have to read it in English for it to make any sense. Computers and software were not created and developed in Germany but in the US and thus fit into the English language and not into German. That's still the case, and German doesn't have the necessary words. There's probably more to it, like computers being part of the worlds American peoeple live in while not being part of the worlds Germans live in, with a few exceptions, so they never made it into the language. There is still not even a word for 'computer' in German (there is no word for cellphone, either). Germany has been cut off, and it shows. When you need to tell a German to press Ctrl, you have to tell them to press Strg. They won't find the Ctrl key and they won't find the Steuerung key. Those keys aren't on German keyboards. I don't know why they changed that, it used be Ctrl on Germany keyboards. People used to be able to find the Ctrl key when you told them to press Control. It's just bullshit, they should never have changed it, and it's stupid and annoying.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > [...] > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > > four major ways: > > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are mentioned as the second of the four ways. > The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and > since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other > characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being > rather awkward and difficult to use. Whoever created it has > completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters. > > And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key. That also has > consequences that make things worse. > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout > >
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
Hi, Loris Bennett wrote: > As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met > many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why BASIC ? Or the popular bundle theory: [Strg] (= [Ctrl]) means "String", [AltGr] (= right side [Alt]) means "Altgriechisch" (= ancient greek), [Entf] (= [Delete]) means "Entfetten" (= degrease). Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 11:35:34AM +0100, hw wrote: [...] > > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > > an outright solution [...] > It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth. I was following this thread with some interest. Now, I'm out. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 09:17 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > and for almost 30 years we had > > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session > > numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. > Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a > gap of at most a few years. NumLock has been around well before 2002. > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup=5154 > > https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ > > May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be > more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the > environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or > plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to > simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible > solution simply brush it off? Nobody has yet suggested a solution to how to change keyboard layouts when using wayland. > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend > them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending > or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even > reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an > answer to share. It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > [...] > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > been around for 30 years. I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines manually. We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at all now. > > [...] > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian users haven't noticed yet. Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good alternative for servers.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
hw writes: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: >> hw writes: >> >> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: >> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): >> > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. >> > > >> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, >> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes >> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable >> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard >> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ >> > > localization experience. >> > >> > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. >> > >> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With >> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- >> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on >> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be >> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a >> > German layout. >> >> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and >> regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German >> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the >> default shortcut of 'Super + space'. > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't > change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German > layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be > able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and > layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for > the keyboard to be usable. OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out how to map that to a single insert. > And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for > example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an > US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you > have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like > 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed > to mean? As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why > So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there > no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there > should be? > > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. > > It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between > switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But > the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. > > > [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet. -- This signature is currently under constuction.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a gap of at most a few years. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup=5154 https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible solution simply brush it off? Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an answer to share. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 hw wrote: > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode. The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different keyboard models. This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and somewhat poorly documented. And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it. It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up. The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself. Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package) Gotchas include: Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:24:32AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional > > working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not > > aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an > > environment has the motivation to do so. > > I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for > the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file > feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard). > > AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but > that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland. I lost that optimism long time ago. If I felt a genuine interest, I'd put up with all the inconveniences involved, but I just don't. I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the context of GNOME and I don't need that again. But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional > working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not > aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an > environment has the motivation to do so. I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard). AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland. Stefan
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. At this point, I believe there are folks who *believe* that Wayland is the future, and that everyone should switch to it sooner rather than later. I also believe that there are people who are happily using it. Most people who use it probably don't even know they're using it. What I *know*, however, is that there are some people who are never going to switch until (a) the decision is taken away from them, by X no longer working, or (b) a fully equivalent Wayland environment can be created to take the place of their existing X environment. I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an environment has the motivation to do so.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > > [...] > > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > > of those. > > > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > > goes. > > Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such > a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. man keyboard perhaps? (First paragraph in Description.) > Try to get a > German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. > > It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the > question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that > into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring > that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Would you get more help on the German list, as one might expect people there to be using German layouts more frequently? caps:ctrl_modifier Caps Lock is also a Ctrl xorg.conf is only omitted because by default it is empty. I drop a small file into xorg.conf.d just because the side buttons on one of my mice are a nuisance. But I don't resent not having to specify all those Screens, Monitors and Devices that used to be necessary. > Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some > ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. > So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and > if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then > do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the > other way round). As I have NumLock turned off, and never turn it on, I haven't had occasion to use IgnoreModifiers in fvwm, but IgnoreModifiers 2 is meant to ignore that modifier. > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > good way to change the keyboard layouts! I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's been around for 30 years. > > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > > keyboard(5) man page. > > "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in > /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the > console." > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. Cheers, David.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 06/02/2024 03:59, Michael Kjörling wrote: Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just about forever. GNOME developers decided that they do not want to support all "bells and whistles" of XKB, e.g. layout switch using CapsLock and Shift+CapsLock. So some features configurable through /etc/default/keyboard are not available.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > [...] > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > of those. > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > goes. Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. Try to get a German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the other way round). How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a good way to change the keyboard layouts! > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > keyboard(5) man page. "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the console." Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > [...] > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > four major ways: It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being rather awkward and difficult to use. Whoever created it has completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters. And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key. That also has consequences that make things worse. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history goes. The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the keyboard(5) man page. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 21:06 +0100, hw wrote: > And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean? "Strg" is short for "Steuerung", just the literal translation of "control". /ralph
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon 05 Feb 2024 at 21:06:30 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > > hw writes: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > > > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. > > > > > > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, > > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes > > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable > > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard > > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ > > > > localization experience. > > > > > > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. > > > > > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- > > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on > > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be > > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a > > > German layout. > > > > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and > > regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German > > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the > > default shortcut of 'Super + space'. > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't > change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German > layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be > able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and > layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for > the keyboard to be usable. > > And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for > example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an > US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you > have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like > 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed > to mean? Control. > So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there > no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there > should be? > > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. > > It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between > switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But > the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. > > [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet. "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in four major ways: The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched. In English, the letter "y" is very common and the letter "z" is relatively rare, whereas in German the letter "z" is very common and the letter "y" is very uncommon.[1] The German layout places "z" in a position where it can be struck by the index finger, rather than by the weaker little finger. Part of the keyboard is adapted to include umlauted vowels (ä, ö, ü) and the sharp s (ß). (Some newer types of German keyboards offer the fixed assignment Alt+++H → ẞ for its capitalized version.) Some of special key inscriptions are changed to a graphical symbol (e.g. ⇪ Caps Lock is an upward arrow, ← Backspace a leftward arrow). Most of the other abbreviations are replaced by German abbreviations (thus e.g. "Ctrl" is translated to its German equivalent "Strg", for Steuerung). "Esc" remains as
How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > hw writes: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. > > > > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ > > > localization experience. > > > > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. > > > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a > > German layout. > > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and > regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the > default shortcut of 'Super + space'. Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for the keyboard to be usable. And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean? So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there should be? Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one of those. It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.
