Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 10:38:03 -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 20150421_1248+0100, Brian wrote: On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 11:30:55 +, Bonno Bloksma wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) Nope, I think you are absolutely right. I never selected Expert install as I am in no way an Expert, but it seems I should have. I definitely understand pretty much all that is offered there. I might not use it all but Advanced covers better what the option intends to offer. What does it offer that is more advanced than what is offered by partitioning and installing GRUB in the regular install? In my case it offered the option of manual entry of an IP address for the computer, as opposed to letting DHCP provide an IP address. The majority of people wouldn't know the difference between an address allocated by DHCP and a fixed address. Furthermore, they probably do not care. The installer does the right thing with the regular install. It caters for the most usual situation in which Debian is installed. Someone who does not realise that a fixed address is important for them can do corrections from the installer when it dawns on them. Its a win-win for the installer. For experts, 'Expert install' apparently offers a check-list of things to decide this time, like the pre-flight check-list for airplane pilots. Experts in any topic tend like and use check-list, IMHO. You are equating 'Expert install' with 'experts' rather than with 'more control'. Maybe we should have 'Debian Simulators ' to mimic the flight simulators for aeroplane pilots. Oh - we do?; its called 'Change debconf priority'. I learned that almost no one who has deep experience and real expertise regularly uses the non-expert path and thus can understand what a newbie is talking about when the newbie is asking for help with the most recent implementation of netinst. Knowing the context of a question is important to giving focused comment and help. I see this as a problem worth thinking about. I use the regular path frequently. Possibly more frequently than a preseeded install. I'd question the first sentence; it implies that that person has little idea about what they are doing. I have no idea for a realistic solution. I don't believe any newbie reads ALL the documentation that is available just a few mouse clicks away from www.debian.org. Everyone has a point where they decide they are ready to try it, and they stop reading and start doing. When should that be? Who is qualified to critisize a mistaken decision? Everyone is qualified; it is the way we make progress in any field of endeavour. 'ALL' documentation amounts to the manual and the Release Notes. I would I hope a budding aeroplane pilot would familiarise herself with what the machine can do before operating it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21042015184602.5ab7a75c2...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On 20150421_1930+0100, Brian wrote: On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 10:38:03 -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 20150421_1248+0100, Brian wrote: On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 11:30:55 +, Bonno Bloksma wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) Nope, I think you are absolutely right. I never selected Expert install as I am in no way an Expert, but it seems I should have. I definitely understand pretty much all that is offered there. I might not use it all but Advanced covers better what the option intends to offer. What does it offer that is more advanced than what is offered by partitioning and installing GRUB in the regular install? In my case it offered the option of manual entry of an IP address for the computer, as opposed to letting DHCP provide an IP address. The majority of people wouldn't know the difference between an address allocated by DHCP and a fixed address. Furthermore, they probably do not care. The installer does the right thing with the regular install. It caters for the most usual situation in which Debian is installed. Someone who does not realise that a fixed address is important for them can do corrections from the installer when it dawns on them. Its a win-win for the installer. For experts, 'Expert install' apparently offers a check-list of things to decide this time, like the pre-flight check-list for airplane pilots. Experts in any topic tend like and use check-list, IMHO. You are equating 'Expert install' with 'experts' rather than with 'more control'. Maybe we should have 'Debian Simulators ' to mimic the flight simulators for aeroplane pilots. Oh - we do?; its called 'Change debconf priority'. I learned that almost no one who has deep experience and real expertise regularly uses the non-expert path and thus can understand what a newbie is talking about when the newbie is asking for help with the most recent implementation of netinst. Knowing the context of a question is important to giving focused comment and help. I see this as a problem worth thinking about. I use the regular path frequently. Possibly more frequently than a preseeded install. I'd question the first sentence; it implies that that person has little idea about what they are doing. I have no idea for a realistic solution. I don't believe any newbie reads ALL the documentation that is available just a few mouse clicks away from www.debian.org. Everyone has a point where they decide they are ready to try it, and they stop reading and start doing. When should that be? Who is qualified to critisize a mistaken decision? Everyone is qualified; it is the way we make progress in any field of endeavour. 'ALL' documentation amounts to the manual and the Release Notes. I would I hope a budding aeroplane pilot would familiarise herself with what the machine can do before operating it. Thanks, for your comment. It is very revealing. Peace, -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150421192726.ge6...@big.lan.gnu
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 21:26:07 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 03:49:07PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote: On 04/20/2015 03:44 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 07:52:53PM +0100, Brian wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. The first screen is for selecting a language. There is a 'Go Back' button or the ESC key to use. 'Change debconf priority' has an extensive help screen. Does doing this mean the user has a) read the first screen? b) read the manual? c) been overcome with curiosity? d) a cat given to walking on keyboards? Or does it mean the user possesses super-human powers and has become an 'expert'? Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) You wouldn't be the first; it crops up from time to time. Some people even treat it seriously. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21042015114025.2576bf557...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 03:49:07PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote: On 04/20/2015 03:44 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 07:52:53PM +0100, Brian wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150421092606.GB25598@tal
RE: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
Hi, Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) Nope, I think you are absolutely right. I never selected Expert install as I am in no way an Expert, but it seems I should have. I definitely understand pretty much all that is offered there. I might not use it all but Advanced covers better what the option intends to offer. Bonno Bloksma -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/89d1798a7351d040b4e74e0a043c69d7cdfa4...@einexch-01.tio.nl
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 11:30:55 +, Bonno Bloksma wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) Nope, I think you are absolutely right. I never selected Expert install as I am in no way an Expert, but it seems I should have. I definitely understand pretty much all that is offered there. I might not use it all but Advanced covers better what the option intends to offer. What does it offer that is more advanced than what is offered by partitioning and installing GRUB in the regular install? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21042015124519.bc310f923...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On 20150421_1248+0100, Brian wrote: On Tue 21 Apr 2015 at 11:30:55 +, Bonno Bloksma wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric Yeah it would, it implies access to finer grained features than to the skill level of the person installing. Could be just me that sees it that way though. :) Nope, I think you are absolutely right. I never selected Expert install as I am in no way an Expert, but it seems I should have. I definitely understand pretty much all that is offered there. I might not use it all but Advanced covers better what the option intends to offer. What does it offer that is more advanced than what is offered by partitioning and installing GRUB in the regular install? In my case it offered the option of manual entry of an IP address for the computer, as opposed to letting DHCP provide an IP address. For experts, 'Expert install' apparently offers a check-list of things to decide this time, like the pre-flight check-list for airplane pilots. Experts in any topic tend like and use check-list, IMHO. I learned that almost no one who has deep experience and real expertise regularly uses the non-expert path and thus can understand what a newbie is talking about when the newbie is asking for help with the most recent implementation of netinst. Knowing the context of a question is important to giving focused comment and help. I see this as a problem worth thinking about. I have no idea for a realistic solution. I don't believe any newbie reads ALL the documentation that is available just a few mouse clicks away from www.debian.org. Everyone has a point where they decide they are ready to try it, and they stop reading and start doing. When should that be? Who is qualified to critisize a mistaken decision? Cheers, -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150421163803.gc6...@big.lan.gnu
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
Quoting Paul E Condon (pecon...@mesanetworks.net): We have been snipping stuff that seemed to be no longer relevant, so I have to work from my own memory that I know is flawed. Everything on this list is also at the Debian website. This thread starts at https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/04/msg00881.html [...] It took a while to remove enough cruft from various locations in memory of the various hosts to get the remaining data make sense. I don't think I am finished, but I am on my way. Great. The lesson that I have for others who may find this email while trying to debug a small personal LAN in your home is: Always use 'Expert install' in doing netinst even if you know very well that you are not an expert. Agreed. And this also gives a lot more control over disk partitioning, which is something people may regret not taking more care over. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150420173453.GA10624@alum
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On 20150420_0911+0200, Petter Adsen wrote: On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:18:58 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: On 20150419_0852-0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 20150419_0826-0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 20150419_0830+0200, Petter Adsen wrote: On your router, depending on make and model, there is usually a page in the web interface where you can map MAC addresses to IP addresses, if the router assigns those via DHCP. I am trying to setup DHCP assignment, but it doesn't seem to be working. Mostly the more things I try, the less things show up in the list of attached devices. I hope I can recover from this experiment. Another option you have, that I would file in the future experiments when everything else is stable and working category, would be to see if your router is supported by something like OpenWRT or DD-WRT. They both have a lot more features than most manufacturers firmware, and give you a greater degree of control. Also, on my router and the one I had before, the list of DHCP clients was frequently not listing all clients. It may have had something to do with the fact that I set really long lease times, but I'm not sure. See if your router has a log, on my router I can even filter on events, and DHCP is one of the filters I can choose. Then you will see the requests come in and the router sending replies. Good luck, Petter To all contributers to this thread: We have been snipping stuff that seemed to be no longer relevant, so I have to work from my own memory that I know is flawed. The starting point in getting control was to take note of exactly what Petter wrote in a earlier post. It was only for IP addresses that were managed by the router in its role as a DHCP server that the router box had any control. For some reason this triggered my memory of a something that *did*not* happen in what was then the most recent netinst of Jessie: I did not see a question about whether or not I wanted to use DHCP. I kept thinking that question would be later in the dialog, but it never came. I am sure it was not there because I had neglected to specify 'expert install', which years ago I had learned that I should always do. So I have done yet another netinst of Jessie using RC2 CD. And the results are very different, and much more successful in meeting my needs. After the most recent netinst, the fact, already pointed out by Petter, was obvious to me. The warning message was the same as always, but my response was to delete the offending line from the know_hosts file and try again. It took a while to remove enough cruft from various locations in memory of the various hosts to get the remaining data make sense. I don't think I am finished, but I am on my way. The lesson that I have for others who may find this email while trying to debug a small personal LAN in your home is: Always use 'Expert install' in doing netinst even if you know very well that you are not an expert. Cheers, and Thank you. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150420155709.ga6...@big.lan.gnu
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Mon 20 Apr 2015 at 12:34:53 -0500, David Wright wrote: Quoting Paul E Condon (pecon...@mesanetworks.net): The lesson that I have for others who may find this email while trying to debug a small personal LAN in your home is: Always use 'Expert install' in doing netinst even if you know very well that you are not an expert. Agreed. And this also gives a lot more control over disk partitioning, which is something people may regret not taking more care over. 'Install' gives exactly the same partitioning options as 'Expert install'. Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. Having booted d-i with 'Install' it is easy enough to get 'Expert' mode by returning to the main menu to change the debconf priority. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20042015193834.8974d090b...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
Quoting Brian (a...@cityscape.co.uk): 'Install' gives exactly the same partitioning options as 'Expert install'. Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. Having booted d-i with 'Install' it is easy enough to get 'Expert' mode by returning to the main menu to change the debconf priority. Points taken. I was rambling once I'd written the possibly slightly more important first paragraph. I haven't retried an inexpert install since about 1997. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150420191013.GB11709@alum
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On 04/20/2015 03:44 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 07:52:53PM +0100, Brian wrote: Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. Would advanced setup be better? Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55355833.7050...@gmail.com
Re: I need guidance about how to configure a newly installed Jessie ... great progress
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 07:52:53PM +0100, Brian wrote: On Mon 20 Apr 2015 at 12:34:53 -0500, David Wright wrote: Quoting Paul E Condon (pecon...@mesanetworks.net): The lesson that I have for others who may find this email while trying to debug a small personal LAN in your home is: Always use 'Expert install' in doing netinst even if you know very well that you are not an expert. Agreed. And this also gives a lot more control over disk partitioning, which is something people may regret not taking more care over. 'Install' gives exactly the same partitioning options as 'Expert install'. Also 'Expert' doesn't really imply that that user is an expert. It does to me. Strange name choice if that is not the case. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150420194448.GC23009@tal
