Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
Brian writes: On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 17:02:01 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 04:04:17PM +, Brian wrote: > > On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 13:43:29 +, Tixy wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 07:47 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: [...] > > > > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > > > > > > > > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two. > > > > > > Guessing here... because a live version already has a desktop > > > environment on the disk, so it make sense to default to installing that > > > one. E.g. if you choose, say, the XFCE live iso, it would default to > > > XFCE not Gnome. Would be a bit perverse otherwise. AFAICT it does not only "default" to the DE contained within the live system but rather does not even show the choice screen because it installs by copying/extracting the live system's data and hence, the DE (and other software choices) are already set. See below. > > I rather thought the Live images contained a copy of d-i but am not > > going to download an ISO to refresh my menory. I will offer > > > > https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live- > > manual/customizing-installer.en.html > > > > I'd see it as a bit unusual for this copy to differ from the regular d-i. > A few things: [...] > 3. The live CDs are designed so that you download the one with the desktop > you want. The "standard" one installs a minimum Debian with standard > packages and no gui. OK, but the relevance to the OP's issue is obscure. Does it need to taken into account for the issue raised? TL;DR: Live Installers do not present the DE selection screen hence it should not relate to the OP. > 4. Live CD install is not guaranteed to be the same as the traditional > Debian installer. Calamares is very significantly different. Live CD/DVD is > maintained by a different libe CD team and not by the Debian media team. Ah! Calamares. It alters the way tasksel behaves in d-i? Heaven help us! Is that is what is meant when it is claimed by Greg Wooledg: With the "Live" installers, the default is different"? Calamares introduces a new ball game? [...] Let me try to clarify this a little bit from my experience as an "advanced" user :) Calamares is an entirely separate installer that can be invoked from within a running (live) system. It is _one_ way to install Debian from a live system but it is not the only one. It is worth stressing that there is _no_ interaction between Calamares and d-i and that they prsent different screens. Behind the scenes, Calamares invokes an `rsync` to copy the data from within the live system to the target. For a typical session in Calamares, see [1] for an example from Debian Buster. Now d-i is separate in that it does not run from within the live system but has to be invoked _instead_ of the respective live system from the boot menu. It is, however, contained on the same ISO image/DVD together with the live system's data. The d-i variant used on live systems does not ask for the choice of DE because its software selection cannot be customized like in the regular d-i. Instead, it simply copies the data from the live file system to the targed drive (? I am not exactly sure on this one ?). See [2] for an example from Debian Buster and note the absence of the tasksel screen. Now the regular d-i shows the tasksel screen and asks for which DE to install. See [3] for an example from the Debian Bullseye Alpha 3 installer. Here are some "real screenshots" :) [1] https://masysma.lima-city.de/37/debian_i386_installation_reports_att/m2-dl1080-i386-lxde-calamares.xhtml [2] https://masysma.lima-city.de/37/debian_i386_installation_reports_att/m2-dl1080-i386-lxde-di.xhtml [3] https://masysma.lima-city.de/37/debian_i386_installation_reports_att/m6-d11a3-i386-netinst.xhtml HTH Linux-Fan öö pgpK1tyhC5AEL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 17:02:01 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 04:04:17PM +, Brian wrote: > > On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 13:43:29 +, Tixy wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 07:47 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon > > > > > > installation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the > > > > > unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task > > > > > happens > > > > > to be GNOME. > > > > > > > > > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two. > > > > > > Guessing here... because a live version already has a desktop > > > environment on the disk, so it make sense to default to installing that > > > one. E.g. if you choose, say, the XFCE live iso, it would default to > > > XFCE not Gnome. Would be a bit perverse otherwise. > > > > I rather thought the Live images contained a copy of d-i but am not > > going to download an ISO to refresh my menory. I will offer > > > > > > https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/customizing-installer.en.html > > > > I'd see it as a bit unusual for this copy to differ from the regular d-i. > > > > A few things: > > 1. GNOME is only the default on AMD64 / i386 - on some of the ARM variants, > it's still XFCE, I think. Fine, but this is not, IMHO, the OP's concern. He is using amd64/i386. Nevertheless, it is something to be aware of. > 2. XFCE _was_ the default for a one CD install until Buster - it's now > too big for one CD so there is no longer a CD which will install as > single desktop by default. Correct, but I do not think we are into CD vs DVD in the OP's issue. This is something to discard from our thinking. > 3. The live CDs are designed so that you download the one with the desktop > you want. The "standard" one installs a minimum Debian with standard packages > and no gui. OK, but the relevance to the OP's issue is obscure. Does it need to taken into account for the issue raised? > 4. Live CD install is not guaranteed to be the same as the traditional > Debian installer. Calamares is very significantly different. Live CD/DVD is > maintained by a different libe CD team and not by the Debian media team. Ah! Calamares. It alters the way tasksel behaves in d-i? Heaven help us! Is that is what is meant when it is claimed by Greg Wooledg: With the "Live" installers, the default is different"? Calamares introduces a new ball game? Alejandro Colomar's observations are quite clear and reprducible. It would be expected he would be along later to expand on them. -- Brian.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 07:43:22 (-0700), Peter Ehlert wrote: > On 11/5/21 4:50 AM, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: > > > > I did some test by installing 2 identical virtualbox instances > > (EFI turned on) with the same netinst image > > . > > > > I typically use XFCE, so I wanted to test if leaving "Debian > > desktop environment" marked would affect or not my XFCE > > installation. > > > > It does. > > > > a) > > | [ ] Debian desktop environment > > | [*] XFCE > > > > b) > > | [*] Debian desktop environment > > | [*] XFCE > > > > Using (b), I end up with 12 more installed packages. I checked > > that there weren't any available upgrades after installing both > > (apt-get update && apt-get upgrade showed 0). > > > > The offending list is: > > > > hv3 [ and its dependencies ] > > > > Maybe there's a bug somewhere in tasksel? > > I consider it Faulty Design. > > there is no "Debian desktop environment"... from my superficial > testing it is kinda "Gnome Lite" > (and in My Opinion gnome desktop is rather hateful). > > Being selected by default is a Huge design flaw. > > a simple "select a desktop environment" text message with something > like "without a desktop you only get a terminal" as a suggestion for > the uninformed would be far superior. This particular horse was flogged a year ago. Top of thread: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/09/msg00238.html It's not something I take great interest in as I don't use a DE. > BTW: I only use net-install because I don't want all that cruft. I wasn't aware that the netinst d-i distinguished itself by not installing "cruft". AIUI, whether you install a DE depends on your replies on this screen: │ Choose software to install: │ │ │ │ [*] Debian desktop environment │ │ [*] ... GNOME │ │ [ ] ... Xfce│ │ [ ] ... GNOME Flashback │ │ [ ] ... KDE Plasma │ │ [ ] ... Cinnamon│ │ [ ] ... MATE│ │ [ ] ... LXDE│ │ [ ] ... LXQt│ │ [ ] web server │ │ [ ] SSH server │ │ [*] standard system utilities │ I've installed non-DE and non-DE, non-X systems from DVDs in the past, and one DE installation from a netinst. > PS: hunting down all swap partitions on very drive and setting them to > Format by default is also a real pain in the tush. I've no idea what is meant by this, nor its relevance to the Subject. I'd mention in passing that I installed bullseye on a 512MB laptop without configuring any swap space, as always. I leave that until the system is up and running. Cheers, David.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 16:44:04 +, Brian wrote: > On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 16:28:36 +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 12:50:23PM +0100, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) > > wrote: > > > hv3 > > > > This is a web browser written in TCL/tK. What I suspect is happening is > > it's being pulled in to satisfy a dependency on "www-browser" virtual > > package by one of the desktop metapackages. > > Interesting that hv3 hasn't any Reverse Depends: and that 'apt install > task-desktop task-xfce-desktop' does not propose it for installation'. I forgot firefox-esr is installed. This satisfies the www-browser package dependency. Hence apt install task-desktop task-xfce-desktop apt install task-xfce-desktop show the same number of packages to be installed. Purging the browser gives the twelve package differnece obtianed by Alejandro Colomar. Now it gets more interesting. task-xfce-desktop depends on task-desktop and the later recommends firefox | firefox-esr. The first command above proposes to install firefox-esr. Why propose hv3 too? -- Brian.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 04:04:17PM +, Brian wrote: > On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 13:43:29 +, Tixy wrote: > > > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 07:47 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > > > > > Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon > > > > > installation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the > > > > unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task happens > > > > to be GNOME. > > > > > > > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > > > > > > > > > > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two. > > > > Guessing here... because a live version already has a desktop > > environment on the disk, so it make sense to default to installing that > > one. E.g. if you choose, say, the XFCE live iso, it would default to > > XFCE not Gnome. Would be a bit perverse otherwise. > > I rather thought the Live images contained a copy of d-i but am not > going to download an ISO to refresh my menory. I will offer > > > https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/customizing-installer.en.html > > I'd see it as a bit unusual for this copy to differ from the regular d-i. > A few things: 1. GNOME is only the default on AMD64 / i386 - on some of the ARM variants, it's still XFCE, I think. 2. XFCE _was_ the default for a one CD install until Buster - it's now too big for one CD so there is no longer a CD which will install as single desktop by default. 3. The live CDs are designed so that you download the one with the desktop you want. The "standard" one installs a minimum Debian with standard packages and no gui. 4. Live CD install is not guaranteed to be the same as the traditional Debian installer. Calamares is very significantly different. Live CD/DVD is maintained by a different libe CD team and not by the Debian media team. All the very best, as ever, Andy Cater > -- > Brian. >
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 16:28:36 +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 12:50:23PM +0100, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: > > hv3 > > This is a web browser written in TCL/tK. What I suspect is happening is > it's being pulled in to satisfy a dependency on "www-browser" virtual > package by one of the desktop metapackages. Interesting that hv3 hasn't any Reverse Depends: and that 'apt install task-desktop task-xfce-desktop' does not propose it for installation'. -- Brian.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 12:50:23PM +0100, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: hv3 This is a web browser written in TCL/tK. What I suspect is happening is it's being pulled in to satisfy a dependency on "www-browser" virtual package by one of the desktop metapackages. libsqlite3-tcl libtcl8.6 libtk-img libtk8.6 tcl tcl-tls tcl8.6 tcllib tk tk-html3 tk8.6 These are all dependencies from hv3. -- Please do not CC me for listmail. Jonathan Dowland ✎j...@debian.org https://jmtd.net
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 13:43:29 +, Tixy wrote: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 07:47 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > > > Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation? > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the > > > unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task happens > > > to be GNOME. > > > > > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > > > > > > > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two. > > Guessing here... because a live version already has a desktop > environment on the disk, so it make sense to default to installing that > one. E.g. if you choose, say, the XFCE live iso, it would default to > XFCE not Gnome. Would be a bit perverse otherwise. I rather thought the Live images contained a copy of d-i but am not going to download an ISO to refresh my menory. I will offer https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/html/live-manual/customizing-installer.en.html I'd see it as a bit unusual for this copy to differ from the regular d-i. -- Brian.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On 11/5/21 4:50 AM, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: Hi, I did some test by installing 2 identical virtualbox instances (EFI turned on) with the same netinst image . I typically use XFCE, so I wanted to test if leaving "Debian desktop environment" marked would affect or not my XFCE installation. It does. a) | [ ] Debian desktop environment | [*] XFCE b) | [*] Debian desktop environment | [*] XFCE Using (b), I end up with 12 more installed packages. I checked that there weren't any available upgrades after installing both (apt-get update && apt-get upgrade showed 0). The offending list is: hv3 libsqlite3-tcl libtcl8.6 libtk-img libtk8.6 tcl tcl-tls tcl8.6 tcllib tk tk-html3 tk8.6 Maybe there's a bug somewhere in tasksel? I consider it Faulty Design. there is no "Debian desktop environment"... from my superficial testing it is kinda "Gnome Lite" (and in My Opinion gnome desktop is rather hateful). Being selected by default is a Huge design flaw. a simple "select a desktop environment" text message with something like "without a desktop you only get a terminal" as a suggestion for the uninformed would be far superior. BTW: I only use net-install because I don't want all that cruft. PS: hunting down all swap partitions on very drive and setting them to Format by default is also a real pain in the tush. I did some tests running tasksel again after the installation, and were intriguing, but I'll hold the deeper tests for after this is inspected. Cheers, Alex
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 07:47 -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation? > > > > > > > > Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the > > unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task happens > > to be GNOME. > > > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > > > > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two. Guessing here... because a live version already has a desktop environment on the disk, so it make sense to default to installing that one. E.g. if you choose, say, the XFCE live iso, it would default to XFCE not Gnome. Would be a bit perverse otherwise. -- Tixy
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri 05 Nov 2021 at 12:50:23 +0100, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: > Hi, > > I did some test by installing 2 identical virtualbox instances (EFI turned > on) with the same netinst image . > > I typically use XFCE, so I wanted to test if leaving "Debian desktop > environment" marked would affect or not my XFCE installation. > > It does. > > a) > | [ ] Debian desktop environment > | [*]XFCE > > b) > | [*] Debian desktop environment > | [*]XFCE > > Using (b), I end up with 12 more installed packages. I checked that there > weren't any available upgrades after installing both (apt-get update && > apt-get upgrade showed 0). > > The offending list is: > > hv3 > libsqlite3-tcl > libtcl8.6 > libtk-img > libtk8.6 > tcl > tcl-tls > tcl8.6 > tcllib > tk > tk-html3 > tk8.6 > > Maybe there's a bug somewhere in tasksel? > > I did some tests running tasksel again after the installation, and were > intriguing, but I'll hold the deeper tests for after this is inspected. Bearing in mind that a bullseye installation of mine does not have a DE but does have xorg, the commands apt install task-desktop task-xfce-desktop apt install task-xfce-desktop tell me that 759 packages are needed in both cases. None of the packages you cite are mentioned in either list or already present on the sytem.. -- Brian.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 7:21 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > > Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation? > > > > Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the > unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task happens > to be GNOME. > > With the "Live" installers, the default is different. > And if I may ask: Why is it different? If there is a reason or two.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
> Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation? Assuming you install with one of the REGULAR installers (not one that contains the word "Live" anywhere in its name): yes. Selecting "Debian desktop environment" in the installer simply acts as an alias for whichever desktop environment task happens to be the default for that installer. Right now, for the regular official installers (and also for the unofficial installer with non-free firmware), that default task happens to be GNOME. With the "Live" installers, the default is different.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
Hi, I added a few CCs, and added below a quote that I should have added to the original mail. On 11/5/21 12:50, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: Hi, I did some test by installing 2 identical virtualbox instances (EFI turned on) with the same netinst image . I typically use XFCE, so I wanted to test if leaving "Debian desktop environment" marked would affect or not my XFCE installation. It does. a) | [ ] Debian desktop environment | [*] XFCE b) | [*] Debian desktop environment | [*] XFCE Using (b), I end up with 12 more installed packages. I checked that there weren't any available upgrades after installing both (apt-get update && apt-get upgrade showed 0). The offending list is: hv3 libsqlite3-tcl libtcl8.6 libtk-img libtk8.6 tcl tcl-tls tcl8.6 tcllib tk tk-html3 tk8.6 Maybe there's a bug somewhere in tasksel? I did some tests running tasksel again after the installation, and were intriguing, but I'll hold the deeper tests for after this is inspected. Sorry, I forgot to quote the previous mail: > I think the goal of the menu design was to accommodate > a first time user who has no experiential background > to chose a specific desktop. If you chose > "Debian desktop environment" AND a specific desktop, > the specific choice overrides. So I proved that this is not what is happening. Cheers, Alex -- Alejandro Colomar Linux man-pages comaintainer; https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
Hi, I did some test by installing 2 identical virtualbox instances (EFI turned on) with the same netinst image . I typically use XFCE, so I wanted to test if leaving "Debian desktop environment" marked would affect or not my XFCE installation. It does. a) | [ ] Debian desktop environment | [*]XFCE b) | [*] Debian desktop environment | [*]XFCE Using (b), I end up with 12 more installed packages. I checked that there weren't any available upgrades after installing both (apt-get update && apt-get upgrade showed 0). The offending list is: hv3 libsqlite3-tcl libtcl8.6 libtk-img libtk8.6 tcl tcl-tls tcl8.6 tcllib tk tk-html3 tk8.6 Maybe there's a bug somewhere in tasksel? I did some tests running tasksel again after the installation, and were intriguing, but I'll hold the deeper tests for after this is inspected. Cheers, Alex -- Alejandro Colomar Linux man-pages comaintainer; https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
Thank you, Richard Hector and Richard Owlett.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On 05/14/2018 06:42 AM, dft wrote: When clean-installing Debian 9.4 from "debian-9.4.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso" using the text-based interface, the following dialog appears. | Software selection | | At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. | To tune the system to your needs, you can choose to install | one or more of the following predefined collections of software. | | [*] Debian desktop environment | [ ] GNOME | [ ] Xfce | [ ] KDE | [ ] Cinnamon | [ ] MATE | [ ] LXDE | [ ] web server | [*] print server | [ ] SSH server | [*] standard system utilities After the installation was performed with "Debian desktop environment" checked and "GNOME" unchecked, I found GNOME installed. It seems that the following three combinations have exactly the same effect, but I am not sure. Please confirm whether the following three combinations have exactly the same effect. | [*] Debian desktop environment | [ ] GNOME | [ ] Debian desktop environment | [*] GNOME | [*] Debian desktop environment | [*] GNOME Does checking "Debian desktop environment" have exactly the same effect as checking "GNOME"? Yes. I think the goal of the menu design was to accommodate a first time user who has no experiential background to chose a specific desktop. If you chose "Debian desktop environment" AND a specific desktop, the specific choice overrides.
Re: Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
On 14/05/18 23:42, dft wrote: > It seems that the following three combinations have exactly the same > effect, but I am not sure. Please confirm whether the following three > combinations have exactly the same effect. > > | [*] Debian desktop environment > | [ ] GNOME > > | [ ] Debian desktop environment > | [*] GNOME > > | [*] Debian desktop environment > | [*] GNOME > > Does checking "Debian desktop environment" have exactly the same effect > as checking "GNOME"? > There were comments about this recently on the list. I believe the answer is yes, due to Gnome being the first on the list. ie if you don't pick a specific DE, the first one is chosen. Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Is "Debian desktop environment" identical to "GNOME" upon installation?
When clean-installing Debian 9.4 from "debian-9.4.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso" using the text-based interface, the following dialog appears. | Software selection | | At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. | To tune the system to your needs, you can choose to install | one or more of the following predefined collections of software. | | [*] Debian desktop environment | [ ] GNOME | [ ] Xfce | [ ] KDE | [ ] Cinnamon | [ ] MATE | [ ] LXDE | [ ] web server | [*] print server | [ ] SSH server | [*] standard system utilities After the installation was performed with "Debian desktop environment" checked and "GNOME" unchecked, I found GNOME installed. It seems that the following three combinations have exactly the same effect, but I am not sure. Please confirm whether the following three combinations have exactly the same effect. | [*] Debian desktop environment | [ ] GNOME | [ ] Debian desktop environment | [*] GNOME | [*] Debian desktop environment | [*] GNOME Does checking "Debian desktop environment" have exactly the same effect as checking "GNOME"?
