Re: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
TigerDirect is not partial to either Windows or any other operating system. TigerDirect is also an OEM manufacturer of systems. TigerDirect currently offers BTO systems with "FreeDOS" on them. TigerDirect was the FIRST to offer LIndowsOS based PCs and has continued to promote the LindowsOS and their suite of products. Banners are banners. Products are products. Market share is market share. I'd love to have Debian sponsor some banners!
Re: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Feb 07, 2004 at 06:41:35AM -0500, Lonny Paul wrote: TigerDirect is not partial to either Windows or any other operating system. TigerDirect sells your contact information to spammers. Banners are banners. Banners are spam, and was among the worst marketing inventions of the 1990s. I'd love to have Debian sponsor some banners! Debian's philosophy is closer to that of returning the net to more sane times, not making the problem worse. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAJQmMUzgNqloQMwcRAloXAJ9fWu5zf4uNdeyRbdjX2xuhMcy3SwCgqw7t p6kzlisggOQo6LEbqnOK2Uc= =AjMF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RFC: Linux compatibility test framework (was: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect)
on Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 11:15:07AM -0600, Kent West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: John Hasler wrote: Terry writes: Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. So you guarantee that it works with a specific version of a specific distribution. And ship it with that version installed and running. Or to make it even simpler: Designed for Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 and include that Knoppix CD without an OS installed. That'd be good enough guarantee for me. I've recommended this (strongly) in the past. It would be nice to see HW vendors pick up on this. It would also be helpful if a HW regression test fram for various peripherals could be created, automated to the extent possible. There's some work toward this (lshw, hdparm, my own system-info script, etc.), anyone care to mention subsystems and possible tests? Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? We freed Dmitry!Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RFC: Linux compatibility test framework (was: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect)
On Sunday 14 December 2003 02:16 am, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 11:15:07AM -0600, Kent West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: John Hasler wrote: Terry writes: Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. So you guarantee that it works with a specific version of a specific distribution. And ship it with that version installed and running. Or to make it even simpler: Designed for Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 and include that Knoppix CD without an OS installed. That'd be good enough guarantee for me. I've recommended this (strongly) in the past. What does this mean, exactly? There's more than one idea here. It would be nice to see HW vendors pick up on this. It would also be helpful if a HW regression test fram for various peripherals could be created, automated to the extent possible. There's some work toward this (lshw, hdparm, my own system-info script, etc.), anyone care to mention subsystems and possible tests? You know, I'm not really sure I know what regression test framework means. I've heard it before, of course, but never really heard a definition. But if you mean that it would be good to make testing much easier for the hardware guys by providing automated testing procedures, I think that's a great idea. Regarding supporting Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 or some such exact distribution, I think it's missing the point. Not enough people in the Linux users community is going to settle for one distribution. And in this case, the user is optimistically asking for a distribution ONLY ONE MONTH OLD! Think about what you're demanding! It's hard enough to stay in the business of selling Debian CDs, when every few months your customer base decides your inventory is all stale and isn't interested anymore. And CDs are *cheap* compared to computer systems. How many good systems must you sell to justify the cost of all the hardware you had to test and send back because it didn't work? How many Linux users will *actually* buy these hypothetical computers, instead of just agitating for them? The actual turn-out tends to be rather underwhelming, from what little I've been able to see of it. In order to make a useful size run, the vendor's going to want more than 1 month lead-time! You need time to decide on a platform design, test the components, replace any that need replacing, and then fill bulk orders for enough units to make the sale profitable. I'm not sure Linux users as a class are that patient. I'm reminded of the college human geography teacher who described a survey on the usage of public buses in Austin, TX. He said the surveys overwhelmingly showed that people [said they] would use the buses. But this survery was devastatingly wrong -- hardly anyone used them when they were provided, and they lost a lot of money. His explanation was that what people really wanted was for OTHER PEOPLE to ride the buses, so they could drive their cars with less traffic on the roads. Are you sure this isn't what's going on here? Otherwise, why isn't e-Linux (for example) a household name? Do you shop there? I mean -- I don't shop there: I can too easily find what I want at PC Club or the local swap meet, and figure out the compatibility issues on my own. And I think that's probably closer to the average Linux users' attitude. I think that a hardware vendor system that really meshes with the FL/OSS community is going to have to take this kind of thing into account. It will have to be sufficiently flexible and robust that it can actually cope both with lots of different distributions, and with the small core market that it will have to depend on. And it will have to (somehow) engage in the same responsibility and AT YOUR OWN RISK risk sharing that the open-source software movement uses. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: Linux compatibility test framework (was: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect)
on Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 03:35:06AM -0600, Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sunday 14 December 2003 02:16 am, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 11:15:07AM -0600, Kent West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: John Hasler wrote: Terry writes: Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. So you guarantee that it works with a specific version of a specific distribution. And ship it with that version installed and running. Or to make it even simpler: Designed for Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 and include that Knoppix CD without an OS installed. That'd be good enough guarantee for me. I've recommended this (strongly) in the past. What does this mean, exactly? There's more than one idea here. The notion of HW vendors using Knoppix (or something very much like it) as a general-purpose copmatibility testing tool. I see bidirectional advantages: HW vendors would have better GNU/Linux support, and Knoppix (and other distros) would gain better HW support within GNU/Linux. It would be nice to see HW vendors pick up on this. It would also be helpful if a HW regression test fram for various peripherals could be created, automated to the extent possible. There's some work toward this (lshw, hdparm, my own system-info script, etc.), anyone care to mention subsystems and possible tests? You know, I'm not really sure I know what regression test framework means. I've heard it before, of course, but never really heard a definition. But if you mean that it would be good to make testing much easier for the hardware guys by providing automated testing procedures, I think that's a great idea. Essentially, yes. There are a number of major subsystems: - BIOS - Disk, including performance (hdparm). - Console (keyboard and text-based video) - Graphics (X), including resolution, refresh, and framerate. I'd think max res for 75 Hz refresh would be a good metric. - Mouse/trackpad/pointer. - Modem. - Audio. - Ethernet. - Peripherals: Serial/Parallel (for legacy), audio out, USB, Firewire, etc. - Features: sleep/hibernation. Note too: there's a difference between _testing_ and _passing_. What I want to know when I assess hardware is how well is this going to work for me stock, and how much additional outlay (say, PCMCIA modem for a crap WinModem) do I need to plan for. 100% is a nice target, but it's not the essential goal. Many of your comments indicate that it is. Regarding supporting Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 or some such exact distribution, I think it's missing the point. Not enough people in the Linux users community is going to settle for one distribution. And in this case, the user is optimistically asking for a distribution ONLY ONE MONTH OLD! Think about what you're demanding! An evaluation against a relatively current Knoppix release, at least as of HW release, would be valid. I'm thinking 6-12 months, as laptop lifecycles are very short. It's hard enough to stay in the business of selling Debian CDs, when every few months your customer base decides your inventory is all stale and isn't interested anymore. And CDs are *cheap* compared to computer systems. Compatibility reports can be updated readily and in near realtime. There's this really neat thing called The World Wide Web you may have heard about that's useful for document distribution Knoppix, too, is released online and updated every few weeks. It can be obtained readily. How many good systems must you sell to justify the cost of all the hardware you had to test and send back because it didn't work? How many Linux users will *actually* buy these hypothetical computers, instead of just agitating for them? The actual turn-out tends to be rather underwhelming, from what little I've been able to see of it. For a number of vendors (Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Sony) there's a certain cache or volume of GNU/Linux user purchases. We're not talking about sending stuff back, we're talking about doing a compatibility test, and publishing the results. Need not be the manufacturer either -- LinuxCare used to do something along these lines. And if the framework is structured properly, a large portion of the tests can be simply scripted and output as a standard report. In order to make a useful size run, the vendor's going to want more than 1 month lead-time! You need time to decide on a platform design, test the components, replace any that need replacing, and then fill bulk orders for enough units to make the sale profitable. I'm not sure Linux users as a class are that patient. I'll be _reasonably_ satisfied with a test that's based on a reasonably current
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 22:59, Kevin Mark wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 09:46:03AM -0600, Kent West wrote: OFF-TOPIC Perhaps I have no business posting this here . . . . I've done business with TigerDirect in the past, but recently they've added a pro-MS banner to their home page. I wrote this note to them, and would encourage other Debianistas who have done business with them to make your feelings known to them also. Note, I realize many (most?) of you aren't anti-Microsoft (unlike myself), but are rather pro-Debian, but the banner just seems -- wrong, somehow, for freedom-loving folks. I'm probably over-reacting (and hopefully this message won't get me in a bunch of killfiles), but it just seems like I should make you folks aware of this. snip Hi Kent, IIRC they offer some no os pcs. If that is the case, as long as they continue to do this, that is what I would care about. I understand their position, 99.9% of businesses that are pro-linux are not anti-microsoft but just want for ms not to bury them(sun,...etc) contrary to what the linux community wanted out of the antitrust cases. Freshmeat, Slashdot and other media have had ms banner IIRC. So, this is not a big deal to me. What is a big deal to me is the DMCA, Patriot Act and DRM. -Kev I myself am not a pure-ist. But, I no longer use windows, and Boot Debian Sid for my OS of choice. I have long promoted Debian, even while my colleagues were Red Krap freaks because they thought it was cool to like linux, but not really know anything. But I have to say I agree with the original poster. Although I agree that our biggest threats to the 'Open Source' movement is things like the DMCA...etc. There is also the problem of the small threat. Not to 'Opensource', but to Linux it self. 'Opensource' is not Linux, it's a way of life. Companies like Tigerdirect, by promoting XP, have shown a bias. They are a hardware distributor, who are now promoting a software upon the hardware they sell. Are we not a legitimate OS that can run on the same hardware? Companies like Dell stopped selling Linux based computers because there was a lack of interest. But it was funny that I noticed that the same hardware could be bought for a cheaper price, from them, when it was shipped with winblows. Only problem was, and have experienced this, Dell would not honor their warranty if it was shipped with winblows, and got formated and Linux installed. I mean holly fril, If Gateway had a sticker that guaranteed that every piece of hardware on a specific Box was Linux compatible, no matter what os was shipped, they'd probably become better than they are currently. But, why do they not get this? HP recently announced that they will start supporting Debian, but where on their site can I gat a laptop pre-installed with Debian? I just want these companies to recognize that we buy too, and that we want to know if a particular product is Linux compatible. I mean, a while back I was a big ATI fan. But, once I realized they would support the video drivers only, but not support the All-in-Wonder card's TV functions, I completely quit using them, and am now anti-ATI unless they get their shit together and support Linux as a whole and not just when they want too. At least nVidia puts out Linux drivers for their cards! (yes, I know about the gatos project, but it's an outside thingATI has not helped them.) Hell, Bioware...although took way too long to put out the Linux version binaries for NeverWinter's Nights, at least they put it out. Unlike all these other companies who don't consider my OS worth while to develop for. These companies promote the M$ monopoly, and should realise that maybe, currently M$ may have a lagre group, 70% to whatever of the desktop world(just a guess for the rant), but are you really wanting to lose 30% of your business? And what if M$ goes underif you have never developed for others you go under as well. Jesus, how much of common sense does this take for them to get it? Honestly, how many of us would go completely to a particular hardware vender if they had a stamp that said'Linux Compatible'. You know we all would. And, I don't have a problem if tigerdirect, or anyone else, has banners that are windows oriented, but if they promote that they recommend windows over anything else, then we should let them know that we are Buyers as well and would appreciate equal advertisement or they will not get our business, and promote against them...like maybe a link page of Linux-friendly hardware distributors, or whatever we can to make these game developers and hardware makes know that we want to be supported, and are tired of being treated like second class citizens. I don't give a damn if most computers run winblows...I don't! and I want to watch DVD's, play games, burn cd's, and do all the same things they do. And, my opinion is that if they don't develop for Linux as well, then
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 03:57:37AM -0600, Wayne Sitton wrote: On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 22:59, Kevin Mark wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 09:46:03AM -0600, Kent West wrote: OFF-TOPIC Perhaps I have no business posting this here . . . . snip And, I don't have a problem if tigerdirect, or anyone else, has banners that are windows oriented, but if they promote that they recommend windows over anything else, then we should let them know that we are Buyers as well and would appreciate equal advertisement or they will not get our business, and promote against them...like maybe a link page of Linux-friendly hardware distributors, or whatever we can to make these game developers and hardware makes know that we want to be supported, and are tired of being treated like second class citizens. I don't give a damn if most computers run winblows...I don't! and I want to watch DVD's, play games, burn cd's, and do all the same things they do. And, my opinion is that if they don't develop for Linux as well, then they are promoting the M$ monopoly, and should be liable under the U.S. justice for promoting a monopoly I would say just my 2 centsbut I think I have taken up a dollar! Wayne Hi Wayne, I'm on your side. I love free software and it world-wide community and I try to say Gnu - Linux (hi RMS!) when ever possible. unfortunatley its like the US Govn't, They listen to $100,000,000 lobbyists, not to joe citizen who may write a letter. This is how the DMCA, broadcast flag laws got passed. MS Pays them for the advert. Maybe we can setup a fund and tell Debian proper to direct this fund to pay Tiger Direct to post OUR Banner, web link, etc. This would be cool! -Kev signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Saturday 13 December 2003 03:57 am, Wayne Sitton wrote: I mean holly fril, If Gateway had a sticker that guaranteed that every piece of hardware on a specific Box was Linux compatible, no matter what os was shipped, they'd probably become better than they are currently. But, why do they not get this? HP recently announced that they will start supporting Debian, but where on their site can I gat a laptop pre-installed with Debian? I just want these companies to recognize that we buy too, and that we want to know if a particular product is Linux compatible. This is a good idea, which I've had before. In fact, I liked it so much, I thought maybe I should open a small shop that did precisely this. Then you find out the problem: When you slap a sticker on hardware like that, you aren't just suggesting that it *probably* works with Linux, you are *making a legal guarantee* that it works with Linux and *promising to support it* if it doesn't work on Linux. That can be an incredible burden! Windows (and Sun and Macs) come in relatively few flavors. Furthermore, one flavor is always recommended and all others deprecated, because these companies want to force you to keep upgrading to their latest and greatest OS. So, as a hardware vendor, you're okay if you just support that variety. What's more, you've got a lot of backup -- you have suppliers who *also* guarantee the hardware with that OS, and you've got an OS tech-support number that you can dump people onto if you can't figure it out, and a legal agreement that they're going to do something for you (that's what those designed for Microsoft Foo stickers are all about). Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. Now there *are* a *few* hardware vendors who do officially support Linux (e.g. Netgear NICs -- which is why I buy from them. They not only provide Linux drivers, they provide *source* for their Linux drivers in the consumer-packaged box. This is good practice!). But if you had to build a retail computer business around only those suppliers, you'd never get anywhere. It already sucks badly enough being a hardware vendor -- hardly anything is more perishable than the value of computer hardware. You can *not* afford to hang on to inventory. So either you sell in volume, with extremely efficient JIT supply, or you don't stay in business. No time to hang around waiting for a community driver to be written or fixed. A couple of companies have actually tried to support Linux online. You may be interested in http://www.elinux.com/ for example. But, even they don't really *guarantee* that their hardware works with Linux (they are also quite biased towards the server rather than the desktop and have limited selection -- which just means they've followed their market). And although, I'm pleased to see that e-Linux is still in business, I'm not sure that all Linux users are exactly flocking there. So, as an entrepreneur, it's hard to feel too motivated by this type of business plan. It's *not* obvious that the market is sitting there waiting for you. This kind of dilemma is a direct consequence of Linux's development model: Distributed open-source development and an indemnity from responsibility (as in the Gnu disclaimer we put at the top of our source files), makes it awkward for a company to underwrite our successes in this way (whereas corporate-written proprietary software comes with that guarantee, so the vendor can pass the buck if things don't work as advertised). My point? If we're going to hang onto our software model (and we should), then we're probably going to need a new distribution model for the hardware, too. I'm still not sure what that model is, though I have a few ideas about pieces of it. But it's a problem to be solved. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
Terry writes: Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. So you guarantee that it works with a specific version of a specific distribution. And ship it with that version installed and running. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
- Original Message - From: Wayne Sitton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect Only problem was, and have experienced this, Dell would not honor their warranty if it was shipped with winblows, and got formated and Linux installed. That is the same story from Evesham. (So they told me). Would they not still be liable under common law to sell hardware fit for the intended purpose ? Geoff. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
John Hasler wrote: Terry writes: Now, if you are just doing this in good faith or making a best effort, you're asking for a lawsuit the first time somebody buys your stuff and can't get the backalley joe Linux distro version 0.0.2 to work with it. Either that, or you're just going to be giving people their money-back an awful lot. So you guarantee that it works with a specific version of a specific distribution. And ship it with that version installed and running. Or to make it even simpler: Designed for Knoppix 3.3 11-02-2003 and include that Knoppix CD without an OS installed. That'd be good enough guarantee for me. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
Kent West wrote: OFF-TOPIC Perhaps I have no business posting this here . . . . I've done business with TigerDirect in the past, but recently they've added a pro-MS banner to their home page. I wrote this note to them, and would encourage other Debianistas who have done business with them to make your feelings known to them also. Note, I realize many (most?) of you aren't anti-Microsoft (unlike myself), but are rather pro-Debian, but the banner just seems -- wrong, somehow, for freedom-loving folks. I'm probably over-reacting (and hopefully this message won't get me in a bunch of killfiles), but it just seems like I should make you folks aware of this. /Kent Message to TigerDirect follows: I've often come to TigerDirect as one of my first on-line shopping stops, and have been happy with my previous experiences with TigerDirect, but lately I've noticed that on your home page (http://www.tigerdirect.com) you have emblazoned across the top of the page this message: TigerDirect recommends Microsoft® Windows® XP. As someone who has an _extreme_ distaste for all things Microsoft, I find this message offensive. I realize you must sell Microsoft products to stay in business, but to openly recommend their products just makes you seem too cozy with MS. It actually crosses my mind when I see this message that Microsoft has probably pressured TigerDirect into making this statement, since I've always held TigerDirect in high regard, thinking you to be more interested in meeting the needs of your customers rather than in hawking a particular vendor's product. Anyway, the short of it is that while this won't keep me from doing business with TigerDirect, it does reduce your value in my opinion, and whereas previously I probably would have chosen TigerDirect to make my next purchase, I've already decided that my next purchase will not be TigerDirect. There are other reasons for this besides this pro-Microsoft banner, but I thought you should be aware that the pro-MS banner was a significant consideration in this decision. Thanks for taking time to read this rant. Did anyone think of sending a CC of their thread replies to Tiger Direct?What would happen if they received email from everyone on this list asking if they had Linux compatible computers? How about a preaddressed form letter that everyone can usesosmething that could also be sent to other hardware vendors.? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Sat, 2003-12-13 at 10:57, Wayne Sitton wrote: I myself am not a pure-ist. But, I no longer use windows, and Boot Debian Sid for my OS of choice. I have long promoted Debian, even while my colleagues were Red Krap freaks because they thought it was cool to like linux, but not really know anything. But I have to say I agree with the original poster. [ ] Companies like Dell stopped selling Linux based computers because there was a lack of interest. But it was funny that I noticed that the same hardware could be bought for a cheaper price, from them, when it was shipped with winblows. Only problem was, and have experienced this, Dell would not honor their warranty if it was shipped with winblows, and got formated and Linux installed. Thanks for letting me know: Do you have details on that? Apple, for example, seems to handle this differently: See start of this thread: Linux voiding warranty for Apple Hardware, or not? http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2003/debian-powerpc-200309/msg00517.html I mean holly fril, If Gateway had a sticker that guaranteed that every piece of hardware on a specific Box was Linux compatible, no matter what os was shipped, they'd probably become better than they are currently. But, why do they not get this? HP recently announced that they will start supporting Debian, but where on their site can I gat a laptop pre-installed with Debian? Ask me what I would do if someone would have pre-installed Linux on a machine I bought? ... :) And how long it would take to delete their Linux and then install mine (My way, as Sinatra would have put it, perhaps :) I think economically it makes not much sense for hardware companies to pre-install Linux for folk like me ... Might be different with people not at home in Computerville ... don't know ... I just want these companies to recognize that we buy too, and that we want to know if a particular product is Linux compatible. I mean, a while back I was a big ATI fan. But, once I realized they would support the video drivers only, but not support the All-in-Wonder card's TV functions, I completely quit using them, and am now anti-ATI unless they get their shit together and support Linux as a whole and not just when they want too. Slowly. ... :) It seems ATI has been helpful *at least* for Linux-powerpc: http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2003/debian-powerpc-200312/msg00291.html Excerpt: Regarding sleep support, there's always hope as far as ATI chips are concerned as ATI has always been helpful with that in the past, though it takes time. For nVidia chips, there is no hope. At least nVidia puts out Linux drivers for their cards! A more than 2 year old thread seems to speak another language. Part of it is this message: http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2001/debian-powerpc-200107/msg00400.html Excerpt: .. nVidia is not playing fair with binary only drivers and no support for non-x86. (yes, I know about the gatos project, but it's an outside thingATI has not helped them.) [ ] I would say just my 2 centsbut I think I have taken up a dollar! Wayne Regards, Wolfgang -- Profile, Links: http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: Companies like Dell stopped selling Linux based computers because there was a lack of interest. But it was funny that I noticed that the same hardware could be bought for a cheaper price, from them, when it was shipped with winblows. Only problem was, and have experienced this, Dell would not honor their warranty if it was shipped with winblows, and got formated and Linux installed. Thanks for letting me know: Do you have details on that? That is absolutely untrue. I called Dell today and tried (unsuccessfully, of course) to purchase a laptop without Windows. They said it was not possible. I then asked if it would somehow affect the warranty on the hardware if I formatted it and installed Linux. The salesman said it would not affect the warranty. He even verified it with a supervisor. The salesman's name was Ricky. Naturally, I ended up not purchasing the laptop. -Roberto pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
That is absolutely untrue. I called Dell today and tried (unsuccessfully, of course) to purchase a laptop without Windows. They said it was not possible. I then asked if it would somehow affect the warranty on the hardware if I formatted it and installed Linux. The salesman said it would not affect the warranty. He even verified it with a supervisor. The salesman's name was Ricky. Naturally, I ended up not purchasing the laptop. -Roberto I ordered a laptop from one of our distributors here and they also said they would ONLY sell them with windows and wireless technology. So i said OK i'll take my business elsewhere, They then complied and offered me the same laptop for 600 euro cheaper so i got a DVD burner and Extra RAM ;-) the only downside was that it was shipped with FreeDos But it was free so that's ok :) (NEC Rox) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
Roberto Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote .. Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: Companies like Dell stopped selling Linux based computers because there was a lack of interest. But it was funny that I noticed that the same hardware could be bought for a cheaper price, from them, when it was shipped with winblows. Only problem was, and have experienced this, Dell would not honor their warranty if it was shipped with winblows, and got formated and Linux installed. Thanks for letting me know: Do you have details on that? That is absolutely untrue. I called Dell today and tried (unsuccessfully, of course) to purchase a laptop without Windows. They said it was not possible. I then asked if it would somehow affect the warranty on the hardware if I formatted it and installed Linux. The salesman said it would not affect the warranty. He even verified it with a supervisor. The salesman's name was Ricky. Naturally, I ended up not purchasing the laptop. -Roberto This is absolutely true, as I said I have experienced this directly with my company, as well as some of the companies I support. Wayne
OT: Letter to TigerDirect
OFF-TOPIC Perhaps I have no business posting this here . . . . I've done business with TigerDirect in the past, but recently they've added a pro-MS banner to their home page. I wrote this note to them, and would encourage other Debianistas who have done business with them to make your feelings known to them also. Note, I realize many (most?) of you aren't anti-Microsoft (unlike myself), but are rather pro-Debian, but the banner just seems -- wrong, somehow, for freedom-loving folks. I'm probably over-reacting (and hopefully this message won't get me in a bunch of killfiles), but it just seems like I should make you folks aware of this. /Kent Message to TigerDirect follows: I've often come to TigerDirect as one of my first on-line shopping stops, and have been happy with my previous experiences with TigerDirect, but lately I've noticed that on your home page (http://www.tigerdirect.com) you have emblazoned across the top of the page this message: TigerDirect recommends Microsoft® Windows® XP. As someone who has an _extreme_ distaste for all things Microsoft, I find this message offensive. I realize you must sell Microsoft products to stay in business, but to openly recommend their products just makes you seem too cozy with MS. It actually crosses my mind when I see this message that Microsoft has probably pressured TigerDirect into making this statement, since I've always held TigerDirect in high regard, thinking you to be more interested in meeting the needs of your customers rather than in hawking a particular vendor's product. Anyway, the short of it is that while this won't keep me from doing business with TigerDirect, it does reduce your value in my opinion, and whereas previously I probably would have chosen TigerDirect to make my next purchase, I've already decided that my next purchase will not be TigerDirect. There are other reasons for this besides this pro-Microsoft banner, but I thought you should be aware that the pro-MS banner was a significant consideration in this decision. Thanks for taking time to read this rant. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 10:46 AM, Kent West wrote: I've done business with TigerDirect in the past, but recently they've added a pro-MS banner to their home page. I wrote this note to them, and would encourage other Debianistas who have done business with them to make your feelings known to them also. Note, I realize many (most?) of you aren't anti-Microsoft (unlike myself), but are rather pro-Debian, but the banner just seems -- wrong, somehow, for freedom-loving folks. I'm probably over-reacting (and hopefully this message won't get me in a bunch of killfiles), but it just seems like I should make you folks aware of this. I interpret it as being aimed at Windows users, encouraging them to spend extra for Windows XP instead of copying some old version of Windows from a friend. As a Debian user I don't care what version of Windows they recommend. If they recommended Redhat, then I'd be annoyed. David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Letter to TigerDirect
On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 09:46:03AM -0600, Kent West wrote: OFF-TOPIC Perhaps I have no business posting this here . . . . I've done business with TigerDirect in the past, but recently they've added a pro-MS banner to their home page. I wrote this note to them, and would encourage other Debianistas who have done business with them to make your feelings known to them also. Note, I realize many (most?) of you aren't anti-Microsoft (unlike myself), but are rather pro-Debian, but the banner just seems -- wrong, somehow, for freedom-loving folks. I'm probably over-reacting (and hopefully this message won't get me in a bunch of killfiles), but it just seems like I should make you folks aware of this. snip Hi Kent, IIRC they offer some no os pcs. If that is the case, as long as they continue to do this, that is what I would care about. I understand their position, 99.9% of businesses that are pro-linux are not anti-microsoft but just want for ms not to bury them(sun,...etc) contrary to what the linux community wanted out of the antitrust cases. Freshmeat, Slashdot and other media have had ms banner IIRC. So, this is not a big deal to me. What is a big deal to me is the DMCA, Patriot Act and DRM. -Kev signature.asc Description: Digital signature
