Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 2007-10-19, Mumia W.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reply to list: http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList Oddly enough this one isn't working for me on testing's TB! (2.0.0.6). I have both MHengy and Enigmail installed. :( -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 12:01:42PM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: I started a small mailing list for some old buddies and I to use as we plan our camping trip for next year. Its something we do every 4 years or so and it generates all kinds of mail in the process. I thought a list would be a great way to manage that stuff. Yep, same for me what were you using? A beer meeting every friday evening :) but me and others moved out of the city, so we had to find a different way for planning events (especially New Years Eve). And because of that I opted for the groups feature of one big free mail provider. It comes will all the bells and whistles, like subject tagging and reply-to munging. Yuck! I thought of that, but it was just so easy to set-up and I even ended up just manually signing up my friends (minimalist here, just a flat text list of the subscribers). I've also avoided reply-to munging, but I may just do it so I can stop reposting stuff to the list. But I have no place on the web to host a list :/ Theoretically I could do a dyndns type hosting on my own computer(s), but my server machine is down and the laptop is running unstable and not well suited for this task. Besides, I try to avoid any open ports to the big bad internet if I can avoid it. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 09:34:47PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 08:13:54AM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:51:21PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: Miles Bader wrote: I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. Which is the exact reason why reply-to-list has been an open bug for = TB! for going on 4-5 years now. They don't want to add another button and ca= n't agree on what the default behavior should be or if they should have a dro= pdown menu like 1/2 the other buttons. *sigh* I started a small mailing list for some old buddies and I to use as we plan our camping trip for next year. Its something we do every 4 years or so and it generates all kinds of mail in the process. I thought a list would be a great way to manage that stuff. Yep, same for me what were you using? And because of that I opted for the groups feature of one big free mail provider. It comes will all the bells and whistles, like subject tagging and reply-to munging. Yuck! I thought of that, but it was just so easy to set-up and I even ended up just manually signing up my friends (minimalist here, just a flat text list of the subscribers). I've also avoided reply-to munging, but I may just do it so I can stop reposting stuff to the list. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 08:13:54AM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:51:21PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: Miles Bader wrote: I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. Which is the exact reason why reply-to-list has been an open bug for = TB! for going on 4-5 years now. They don't want to add another button and ca= n't agree on what the default behavior should be or if they should have a dro= pdown menu like 1/2 the other buttons. *sigh* I started a small mailing list for some old buddies and I to use as we plan our camping trip for next year. Its something we do every 4 years or so and it generates all kinds of mail in the process. I thought a list would be a great way to manage that stuff. Yep, same for me So they are all pointy-clicky users who don't know much about computing and that's fine. The result is they don't have a clue, despite repeated explanation by me, how to use the list. A major part of that I put down to the fact that none of the popular mailers in use by user's of that other OS are equpped to handle mailing lists. And because of that I opted for the groups feature of one big free mail provider. It comes will all the bells and whistles, like subject tagging and reply-to munging. Yuck! The folks at t-bird and google etc are all worried about how to present it blah blah blah. THey're afraid of confusing the users, whatever. Just stick it in there and let them figure it out. Its not *that* complicated and if the users are presented with it, they'll make it work. I swear dumbing down interfaces has done more to make dumb users than anything else. There was a sig here somewhere (on d-d) ... here it is: Create a system that is usable even by idiots, and only idiots will use it. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/18/2007 11:51 PM, Steve Lamb wrote: Miles Bader wrote: I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. Which is the exact reason why reply-to-list has been an open bug for TB! for going on 4-5 years now. They don't want to add another button and can't agree on what the default behavior should be or if they should have a dropdown menu like 1/2 the other buttons. *sigh* There are some TB extensions that can help with reply-to-list: Folder account: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/2874 Reply to list: http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList However, a bona-fide feature addition to TB is much preferred. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:51:21PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: Miles Bader wrote: I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. Which is the exact reason why reply-to-list has been an open bug for = TB! for going on 4-5 years now. They don't want to add another button and ca= n't agree on what the default behavior should be or if they should have a dro= pdown menu like 1/2 the other buttons. *sigh* I started a small mailing list for some old buddies and I to use as we plan our camping trip for next year. Its something we do every 4 years or so and it generates all kinds of mail in the process. I thought a list would be a great way to manage that stuff. So they are all pointy-clicky users who don't know much about computing and that's fine. The result is they don't have a clue, despite repeated explanation by me, how to use the list. A major part of that I put down to the fact that none of the popular mailers in use by user's of that other OS are equpped to handle mailing lists. The folks at t-bird and google etc are all worried about how to present it blah blah blah. THey're afraid of confusing the users, whatever. Just stick it in there and let them figure it out. Its not *that* complicated and if the users are presented with it, they'll make it work. I swear dumbing down interfaces has done more to make dumb users than anything else. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About what? Gmail did the right thing, given the information available. The peculiar constraints of this mailing list are just that; gmail has no way to detect them, so it's up to you as the reader to follow them (or instruct your MUA to do so). This is false and has been for years before gmail existed. This being? -Miles -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/18/07, Miles Bader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About what? Gmail did the right thing, given the information available. The peculiar constraints of this mailing list are just that; gmail has no way to detect them, so it's up to you as the reader to follow them (or instruct your MUA to do so). This is false and has been for years before gmail existed. This being? This being the idea that gmail has no way to detect that this is a mailing list. There are a number of headers in each message that show that this a mailing list and that the address is debian-user@lists.debian.org: X-Mailing-List: debian-user@lists.debian.org archive/latest/500826 X-Loop: debian-user@lists.debian.org List-Id: debian-user.lists.debian.org List-Post: mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: list Based on this gmail could add a reply to list button, and if there was a situation that required CCing, you could still use reply to all. A number of the better MUAs work like this. Cheers, Kelly -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Bret Busby wrote: I hope that my apology is accepted, and that we can move on. For what it's worth Bret, I apologize for blowing up on you also. I won't apologize for being angry at the rest of the folks who dog-piled on, who still aren't attempting to help you in any way, but had plenty to say about our behavior. Some of them are acting high-and-mighty, but not helping the situation any, which some of them do in EVERY thread on Debian-User. Sorry Bret, I honestly hope you find a solution to your window-popping problem. Nate (I'll break the rules this once, and send this both to you direct and to the list, just to make sure you get this response. Perhaps it can start another 50 message flamewar about THAT behavior... seen that one here multiple times. Very childish. Those folks need to learn to hit delete and move on, just like I should have with your response when I realized it was going to get me going. Maybe I should have top-posted too, just to get THAT crowd going. Bunch of children around here, Bret. Me included -- apparently -- since I'm complaining about them! HA. Sorry. Maybe its time to unsubscribe from D-U permanently... who has time for this silliness? Or at least a good long multi-year break from it all. The S/N ratio is -- and has been for years -- way out of whack here... normal for D-U, though... and I'm not complaining about that... just the way it is. Sorry for adding to the N instead of the S. Cheers!) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Steve Lamb wrote: Nate Duehr wrote: I didn't start the insults, please look back through the thread. The original poster gets more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly without fully defining his problem from the beginning. I did, I started from the beginning and didn't feel compelled to jump in until I saw your tripe. So now that's two false presumptions on your part. Want to make it the trifecta? Yeah, he's grumpy, I would be too if stuff didn't work that should, in spite of your limited view, work. Doesn't mean you have to reciprocate and escalate. So you felt compelled to jump in to rescue Bret. Fine. Useless but fine. We can work our problems out on our own, Steve. We're adults. No one appointed you to be the list baby-sitter. Do you feel compelled to jump in and continue this process and actually fix his problem? Take up the technical challenge or step away. In my limited view, you won't succeed in finding his problem. There's some tripe for you. Best regards, Nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This being? This being the idea that gmail has no way to detect that this is a mailing list. You're right, gmail can detect _that_. Based on this gmail could add a reply to list button ... and it could add a button with that (reply to list only) behavior too. However, gmail's behavior is certainly correct for reply to all, and the decision over what to use (reply to list only, or reply to all) is up to the user -- and it's not an entirely trivial decision for the user either, as some lists call for one (reply to list only), and some call for the other (reply to all) behavior, with the latter being traditional. I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. [A better method would be to have a per-list option to enable the reply-to-list-only behavior -- that way only people who actually know what they're doing would be bothered by it.] -Miles -- We live, as we dream -- alone -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/18/07, Miles Bader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This being? This being the idea that gmail has no way to detect that this is a mailing list. You're right, gmail can detect _that_. Based on this gmail could add a reply to list button ... and it could add a button with that (reply to list only) behavior too. However, gmail's behavior is certainly correct for reply to all, and the decision over what to use (reply to list only, or reply to all) is up to the user -- and it's not an entirely trivial decision for the user either, as some lists call for one (reply to list only), and some call for the other (reply to all) behavior, with the latter being traditional. That's the problem. There is a reply button and a reply to all. If you press reply, you get only a To: field with the individual address filled in. If you press reply to all, you get a To: field with the individual address and a Cc: field with the list address. You have to cut and paste the list address from Cc: to To: and delete the individual address. [A better method would be to have a per-list option to enable the reply-to-list-only behavior -- that way only people who actually know what they're doing would be bothered by it.] I agree on that. On topic: Bret, did you get a chance to reinstall and try a new profile? I think that should help, or at least eliminate what I think is the most likely problem. Cheers, Kelly -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Miles Bader wrote: I expect that google is somewhat chary about adding more buttons to their UI (look how long it took them to add a delete button!), especially one as potentially confusing as reply-to-list-only. The current reply-to-all is much safer. Which is the exact reason why reply-to-list has been an open bug for = TB! for going on 4-5 years now. They don't want to add another button and ca= n't agree on what the default behavior should be or if they should have a dro= pdown menu like 1/2 the other buttons. *sigh* --=20 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+-= signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/15/07, Bret Busby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I note that the only action that I can take, when the offence occurs, is to twice minimise the offending browser windows that are opened by the application; as, as already mentioned, if I close the offending browser windows, it crashes the browser session, inclusing all browser windows open within the session, and, in Iceape, the session cannot be restored. SeaMonkey aka Iceape aka Mozilla will not have session restore until SeaMonkey 2.0 comes out, with much of the Firefox code branch merged back in (2.0 is currently in alpha but usable (using it right now)). I have been using the 2.0 alpha for a while now so it is hard to remember how robust the stable version should be, but it should definitely handle ~40 tabs. I start with almost 20 tabs open and I average 25-35, using the same instance for several days. When I browse certain image boards, or start researching something I often temporarily go over 50 tabs, and sometimes nearly 100 (usually spread over several windows). With the 2.0 alphas going over about 40 windows is dangerous (I have been getting some crashes with just a few tabs, but it is alpha). The last stable build I used was good for ~50 before beginning to creak. Any time I have 60+ windows open, I restart Moz as soon as I am finished researching or whatever. I have always found Mozilla to be slightly more stable than Firefox, but either one should now be able to handle ~40 windows. I don't really pay attention to how much ram Moz eats, but I only have 512 (X11+Fluxbox and Amarok being my other big apps). I completely agree with the proposal to purge and reinstall, and to make a new profile - it can make all the difference in the world. I also suggest Ad Block or Ad Block Plus and perhaps NoScript (it is very annoying until you turn off the alerts and teach it your main sites, then it is very good). A huge amount of instability seems to come from ads, ad scripts and ads that use plugins. Also, are you using plugins other than Flash and Java? If you are using media player plugins or in-browser pdf, you might try it without those plugins, as they tend to cause a lot of trouble in my experience. Cheers, Kelly -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/17/07, Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/15/07, Bret Busby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mozilla stuff Sorry about the To/CC thing, I was so busy writing that I forgot gmail is stupid about mailing lists. Note to self: time to bug google about that again. Cheers, Kelly -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:48:40PM -0700, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Nate Duehr wrote: Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer Might I suggest since you're neither a developer or a package maintainer to keep your insults to yourself? Be helpful or be gone. Personally, I would hope that developers and package maintainers would also keep their insults to themselves. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry about the To/CC thing, I was so busy writing that I forgot gmail is stupid about mailing lists. Note to self: time to bug google about that again. About what? Gmail did the right thing, given the information available. The peculiar constraints of this mailing list are just that; gmail has no way to detect them, so it's up to you as the reader to follow them (or instruct your MUA to do so). -Miles -- Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory. -- Walter Hines Page -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/17/07, Miles Bader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Note to self: time to bug google about that again. About what? Gmail did the right thing, given the information available. The peculiar constraints of this mailing list are just that; gmail has no way to detect them, so it's up to you as the reader to follow them (or instruct your MUA to do so). That's not quite true. There are a number of headers starting with List-. Given that they don't begin X-List-, I'm assuming they're standardized. While it's perfectly reasonable to have the default Reply go to the sender (unless otherwise specified), it's also reasonable for the list headers to result in a Reply to List or similar button. -- Michael A. Marsh http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~mmarsh http://mamarsh.blogspot.com http://36pints.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 01:19:01PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote: On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Nate Duehr wrote: [I think I've managed to snip the bile] 41 webpages open and you're experiencing problems. Gee, there's a big surprise. You're somewhat pushing the bounds of sanity at that point, for just about any browser. In the browser window that I open for this country, I have about ten tab bookmarks, and, of those, about 6 web pages automatically refresh. Due to the bodgy way that the ABC presents its news web pages, apart from five news headline web pages refreshing about every minute, each news story web page that is open, also refreshes about every minute. And, when web browsers do not release unused memory, instead increasing memory and other resource usage, whenever a web page is opened or reloaded, cumlative problems occur. Agreed. At present, I have 22 Iceape browser windows open, with however many tabs in total are open, and tsome of those tabs, are subject to automatic refreshing. So, you are telling us that Mozilla is incapable of producing a web browser that can operate with more than one browser window and more than one tab open, and that Mozilla is inapable of producing web browsers that operate within limits of load defined by the developers, whereby, a limit is reached, and a dialogue box appears, stating You have already too many browser windows/tabs open. You need to close some browser tabs,windows, before opening any more. ? Okay. So you say that Mozilla are incompetent software developers. I am sure they would like for you to tell them that, directly. I've had lots of problems with mozilla browsers, such that I only use iceweasel when I can't get a site to use Konquerer, or: when I access the web browser on my Athlon64 via ssh from my P-II and need lots of tabs open. The P-II only has 64 MB of ram and Konquerer puts its rendering in the xorg server memory on the P-II whereas Iceweasel keeps its memory footprint on the Athlon64 box. I may open 20 tabs or so, comparing the weather across Canada (we do have six time-zones to contend with), or loading up real-estate pages for my wife to view. On dialup, each page may take 5 min to load so I do the hour's work before I bring her into the picture. On occasion, Iceape has taken above 95% of CPU, and that is when (but not necessarily the only occasions when) it sometimes crashes of its own accord (without me closing untitled windows). I have earlier today, with these browser windows and tabs open, encountered the problem with the untitled windows. I have also encountered the problem on occasions with 10 browser windows open, and with 14 browser windows open, thence with less memory usage, both by programs and by cache. When I'm running on my Athlon64 box, I run Konqueror for all sites on which it works (all but MLS.ca's usage agreement). You may want to see if Konqueror can keep up with your tabs usage. The kernel should handle cleaning up application memory (or permanently caching any memory that wasn't de-allocated at the iceweasel/iceape crashes. Once cached, if never called for again they'll just sit there using some swapfile space. Until that fills, I wouldn't worry about doing a full reboot. Well, it doesn't. That is why I reboot after each mentioned crash. Because, the system monitor can show that up to 50% of the memory is still being used with no tasks visible in the taskbar after such a crash. Seriously? You find that after the iceweasel grabs memory and then crashes that the memory isn't being released? I guess that Mozilla really can't write good software. As to why the kernel can't keep track of the memory and release it when iceweasel crashes, I haven't tested that. I wonder if BSD kernels work better... As the computer, having gigabytes of RAM, and, swap space that is seldom used, is not placed under extreme load by the way that I use it, it is not me that is running the system at extremes. Even when I have Konqueror loaded up with tabs, my CPU usage is mostly idle, even if I can conspire to use up ram and hit swap. Try Konq. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:19:01 +0800 (WST), Bret Busby [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I didn't expect bigotry on this list. I am not sure bigotry means what you think it does. You asked for volunteers to help you with a problem; they said that the problem you presented was presented in a fashion that was likely to be triaged out in favour of problems which presented better. This is not presenting any dogma as being incontrovertibly correct. But then, if that's what the list is about, so be it. This list is about people who use Debian helping each other. I hope that you are not a professional software developer. I am. If you are, and you tell customers to get stuffed, if they find fault with your software, then I pity any customers that you have left. But then, if they are stupid enough to stay with you, they so do at their own peril. You are not a customer. Customers help pay my salary. You do not. At best, we are both people who use Debian. If I can help you, I will, but this is entirely on my dime, and an act of goodwill. Do not presume to abuse that. So, you are telling us that Mozilla is incapable of producing a web browser that can operate with more than one browser window and more than one tab open, and that Mozilla is inapable of producing web browsers that operate within limits of load defined by the developers, whereby, a limit is reached, and a dialogue box appears, stating You have already too many browser windows/tabs open. You need to close some browser tabs,windows, before opening any more. ? Mozilla folks have a Bugzilla implementation. As the person encountering this problem, perhaps you are the best person to report it? Well, it doesn't. That is why I reboot after each mentioned crash. Because, the system monitor can show that up to 50% of the memory is still being used with no tasks visible in the taskbar after such a crash. You find system memory being used after a crash. Are you sure it is not used in cached buffers? But then, I suppose you are more interested in making a noise, as disturbing and annoying as possible, rather than examining the facts, and determining a cause of a problem and seeking a solution. Is your name really John MacEnroe? You know, you have a singularly ineffective means of asking for help. And I wish you good luck with your much needed full frontal lobotomy, and I hope that it eliminates your distemper, and makes you able to coexist with other people. Wow. For someone asking for help from volunteers, you certainly are making friends here. manoj -- A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:52:40PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Not sure what's opening the extra windows though. Unless it's some for of advertising from the web sites. I browse through a sqiud+adzapper proxy so I tend to miss a large portion of cruft that the net tries to throw at my browser. good point. I've seen adblock do this on occaision. The window is spawned by the current server, but the content comes from a blocked site so you get an empty window. But its been a long time since I've seen that behavior. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Daniel Burrows wrote: Personally, I would hope that developers and package maintainers would also keep their insults to themselves. Touche'. BTW (not just to you, Daniel) looks like it's time for the friendly reminder of list CoC... Don't CC unless requested. Thanks. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Miles Bader wrote: About what? Gmail did the right thing, given the information available. The peculiar constraints of this mailing list are just that; gmail has no way to detect them, so it's up to you as the reader to follow them (or instruct your MUA to do so). This is false and has been for years before gmail existed. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:08 AM, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:48:40PM -0700, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Nate Duehr wrote: Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer Might I suggest since you're neither a developer or a package maintainer to keep your insults to yourself? Be helpful or be gone. Personally, I would hope that developers and package maintainers would also keep their insults to themselves. I didn't start the insults, please look back through the thread. The original poster gets more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly without fully defining his problem from the beginning. (If I'd have seen him say, I'm opening a god-awful number of windows and then... X happens..., I would have ignored the entire thread from the beginning. He suckered me into trying to help and then said I wasn't doing it right... fine... go whine to the devs, instead of a USER list.) I'm sure all the fine folks dog-piling on me who didn't bother to read the entire thread, will get all of his problems sorted out now. For free. Like professionals even! And he'll NEVER have another problem ever again with free software! (Yes, that's sarcasm.) The OP needs to realize that free software sometimes works great, sometimes works badly. Having an attitude that reeks of entitlement (this MUST work for me or you must make it work!), doesn't get many other users interested in helping him. In my upset state, I mixed in the information of exactly how to trace what the software is doing with some get a clue insults. I probably shouldn't have done that. Still others had offered up MULTIPLE ideas on how to fix the problem, and the OP refuses to try them. I don't think I'm the one with the problem here. Guess what? Iceape/ Iceweasel works FINE for me... so guess who has the problem? The OP needs to get over himself and try some of the suggestions given, in some cases those solutions have been repeated MULTIPLE times by his peers here with more experience with the software. Rebuild the profile, purge and reinstall, or trace the software and see exactly what's triggering the behavior you don't like. It's just a damn browser, after all. There are other browsers to try, too. Am I still a bit upset? Yes. I hate it when people think they DESERVE answers to their questions here. It reeks of the very elitism he claims I hit him with -- I just flung it back his direction, is all. I only did because he started in on me... ignoring suggestions, acting like he was entitled to better answers, claiming that we weren't doing it right when he hadn't shared even the most important detail -- that he was opening a large number of windows to lots of different sites. (If you recall, he sent a list of exactly TWO URL's and told us those were the problem sites. Uh- huh, sure.) Anyway... who cares? He'll either find answers to his problems from all you nice people, or he'll still hate the software and maybe even me, and I'll still be happy with the software I'm using and he won't. The mean people offered up solutions and he didn't like them. Oh well. I guess we're terrible people. Good bye. (I'm going to go be mean and enjoy the efforts of all the developers who've kindly developed all this free software. Sometimes it doesn't work right -- you don't see me complaining that a USER list isn't supporting it in a professional way. Of course we don't. We're users. Talk to the devs, for crying out loud. I never owed you any answers or ideas in the first place, and you went on the offensive when you didn't like what I offered. I didn't start it. Then Steve piles on with complaints that I'm being rude. Fine. Steve can fix your problems, as I'm sure he will. Please make sure to send any complaints in the future to Steve.) -- Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 04:56:45PM -0600, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:08 AM, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:48:40PM -0700, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Nate Duehr wrote: Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer Might I suggest since you're neither a developer or a package maintainer to keep your insults to yourself? Be helpful or be gone. Personally, I would hope that developers and package maintainers would also keep their insults to themselves. I didn't start the insults, please look back through the thread. The original poster gets more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly without fully defining his problem from the beginning. I don't care who started it or who threw more insults; please keep your contributions to the list at least minimally civil. That goes for everyone involved, and is not intended as a put-down of you specifically. Lists like this can tend to become unnecessarily hostile, and I think a reminder now and then helps keep people aware of the issue of the tone of discussions. Escalating personal disagreements is not useful, particularly online where it's difficult to gauge whether someone's reply was actually meant to be confrontational. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 01:19:01PM +0800, Bret Busby [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: The kernel should handle cleaning up application memory (or permanently caching any memory that wasn't de-allocated at the iceweasel/iceape crashes. Once cached, if never called for again they'll just sit there using some swapfile space. Until that fills, I wouldn't worry about doing a full reboot. Well, it doesn't. That is why I reboot after each mentioned crash. Because, the system monitor can show that up to 50% of the memory is still being used with no tasks visible in the taskbar after such a crash. That is very interesting. What do you see if you run top, sorted by memory usage (press M) or ps uax after one of these crashes? If memory isn't being reclaimed, it's almost certain that some process is hanging onto it. I have a few guesses, but there's no substitute for actual data. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Nate Duehr wrote: I didn't start the insults, please look back through the thread. The original poster gets more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly without fully defining his problem from the beginning. I did, I started from the beginning and didn't feel compelled to jump in until I saw your tripe. So now that's two false presumptions on your part. Want to make it the trifecta? Yeah, he's grumpy, I would be too if stuff didn't work that should, in spite of your limited view, work. Doesn't mean you have to reciprocate and escalate. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 04:56:45PM -0600, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:08 AM, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:48:40PM -0700, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Nate Duehr wrote: Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer Might I suggest since you're neither a developer or a package maintainer to keep your insults to yourself? Be helpful or be gone. Personally, I would hope that developers and package maintainers would also keep their insults to themselves. I didn't start the insults, please look back through the thread. The original poster gets more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly without fully defining his problem from the beginning. One thing needs to be clarified here - I did not get more and more agitated that people aren't testing correctly; I posted what I thought was a clarification, as, clearly, to open a single browser window, with either only one, or both, of the two URL's that I provided, would not be sufficient to reproduce the problem, and it would not have been at all clear that I had experienced the problem with multiple browser windows with multiple tabs, concurrently open. Having been left out of the original problem description, that needed clarifying. So, I felt that I should post a message clarifying the circumstances of the occurrence of the problem. No agitation was involved, in the posting of that clarification. If that it how it appeared, then I apologise. There is also another thing for which I must apologise. Whilst I believe that the responses from Nate Duehr, were unjustifiably derogatory and inappropriate, I believe, as it has been pointed out to me, that I aggravated the problem, with the comments that I made in my responses, to his responses. As the proverb says, two wrongs do not make a right. What I did, in my responses, was wrong, and aggravated the problem. So, I did wrong, and, in that wrongdoing, I believe that I made the problem worse. I apologise for both of those things. One thing, out of interest - one response that I have read, to my comments, included the statement that it was thought that bigotry means something different to my understanding of the word. My understanding of the meaning of the word bigotry, is that it means an intolerance of opinions that are different. This is supported by my having just checked my copy of the Shorter Oxford Dictionary. Also, under the definition of the word Bigoted,is included, intolerance toward others. Whilst the word is increasingly abused, mostly misused to mean racist, rather than bigoted, the difference is significant, and interesting. Anyway, the purpose of this message is not to go into English usage. Neither is it the purpose of this list. The purposes of this message, are to clarify why I posted the message trying to clarify the circumstances of the software problem, and to apologise for having behaved inappropriately on the list, as I have described. I hope that my apology is accepted, and that we can move on. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 23:20:41 -0700 From: Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 12:56:31PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote: Who is responsible for Iceape and Iceweasel? I am running Debian 4.0, which came with these two applications rather than the Mozilla applications, and the two applications appear to be quite buggy and unstable. they are renamed versions of the firefox and seamonkey(?). Otherwise there is essentially no difference between them. ... Both Iceape and Iceweasel, open up untitled windows when trying to open web pages at all kinds of locations, and, trying to close one of these untitled windows when it is initially displayed, crashes the application, including all of the browser windows that it has open; a procedure has to be used, of some time later, finding the duplicate copy of the untitled window that the application has opened, and, closing that, will cause the untitled window to close. So, when these untitled windows start opening, all that can be done, is minimising the untitled window and its duplicate (they open in pairs), and, again clicking on the link to get the destination that was sought when the application decided to goawry. I'm confused by this description above. The only thing I know of that causes this untitled window issue is when you open a .pdf or some other externally handled file while using a middle click (opening a tab). And closing them certainly doesn't crash anything. Perhaps you could provide specific instructions on how to duplicate this problem for others to try? It just seems to happen. The number of browser windows open at the time, and, the number of tabs within each browser window, also vary. The web addresses, or, URL's, that are involved with the unauthorised untitld windows being opened, vary, from addresses to which I have previously been, to addresses that I regularly visit, inclusing the two below, with such addresses being unlikely to involve malicious code, hence the problem appears significantly more likely to lay with some bug (or, possibly malicious code (?) ) within the particular web browser applications. It recently happened while the system monitor showed memory usage of less than 50% total (out of 2GB RAM). The untitled windows appear to open as pop-ups, although I have a setup configuration of the web browsers, to block pop-ups, which obviously does not work within the software. The problem also appears to occur, apart from when I open links in either new tabs or new windows, when a tab within a window, automatically refreshes, such as the news and weather web pages at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDW60034.shtml and http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/ . Then, I get multiple untitled windows opened, even if I am not doing anything, other than leaving browser windows displaying web pages, open. Leaving web browser windows open, appears to be dangerous, due to the unauthorised actions performed by the software, including the opening of the unauthorised untitled windows, and, otherwise increasing usage of preocessor and memory resources. Whilst Netscape and Mozilla browsers appear to have become increasingly buggy, since about netscape 4.x, I do not remember having encountered this untitled window phenomenom, before Iceape and IceWeasel. I do not know whether this problem is also present in Mozilla 2, or whatever it is now named, as, as previously mentioned, as it is not available as a .deb package, it is simply too complicated to install. Previously, with Netscape, I think it was, installing using the.tar.gz packages, made a kafkaesque mess, as, as each upgrade version came out, in order to upgrade, in following the instructions, I had to go down a further directory level, to install a new version of the software, so it became a bit like a Journey To The Centre Of The Earth. I think I got down to about seven levels of directories, under I think the bin directory, or the /usr/bin directory, before I gave up upgrading that software, as it got too complicated and messy. I note also that, with Iceweasel, which retains records of crashed sessions, which allow for restoration at the next loading and running of the application after a crash, when restoring the crashed session, the untitled windows are not restored. Unfortunately, Iceape, which allows easier use of email links within web pages, by clicking on the email addresses to open a Compose New Message window, with the email address, and, if included, subject fields, already completed, the same way that Netscape Communicator and the Mozilla Suite (I think it was called, before it all went to sea), operated, does not retain session information, so that, when a session crashes, all of the web pages that were open, and, the record of the web pages having been open within
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/16/2007 01:30 AM, Bret Busby wrote: [...] The untitled windows appear to open as pop-ups, although I have a setup configuration of the web browsers, to block pop-ups, which obviously does not work within the software. The problem also appears to occur, apart from when I open links in either new tabs or new windows, when a tab within a window, automatically refreshes, such as the news and weather web pages at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDW60034.shtml and http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/ . Then, I get multiple untitled windows opened, even if I am not doing anything, other than leaving browser windows displaying web pages, open. [...] When I visit those sites in Iceweasel, I don't get the behavior you describe. It looks like your Iceweasel installation is mussed. Purge iceweasel and reinstall it. Since I use aptitude for package management, I would do this: aptitude purge iceweasel aptitude install iceweasel Your Iceweasel/Mozilla profile might also be messed up. Move your profile to someplace where Iceweasel can't find it, e.g. a trash directory. Do this before starting iceweasel again. Read here about your profile folder: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile http://kb.mozillazine.org/ is a great place to get information about Mozilla. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Mumia W.. wrote: Your Iceweasel/Mozilla profile might also be messed up. Move your profile to someplace where Iceweasel can't find it, e.g. a trash directory. Do this before starting iceweasel again. Read here about your profile folder: Alternatively, you can invoke it as: iceweasel -profilemanager and create a new profile. -- Lab tests show that use of micro$oft causes cancer in lab animals Got Gas??? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Bret Busby wrote: The web addresses, or, URL's, that are involved with the unauthorised untitld windows being opened, vary, from addresses to which I have previously been, to addresses that I regularly visit, inclusing the two below, with such addresses being unlikely to involve malicious code, hence the problem appears significantly more likely to lay with some bug (or, possibly malicious code (?) ) within the particular web browser applications. It recently happened while the system monitor showed memory usage of less than 50% total (out of 2GB RAM). The untitled windows appear to open as pop-ups, although I have a setup configuration of the web browsers, to block pop-ups, which obviously does not work within the software. The problem also appears to occur, apart from when I open links in either new tabs or new windows, when a tab within a window, automatically refreshes, such as the news and weather web pages at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDW60034.shtml and http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/ . Then, I get multiple untitled windows opened, even if I am not doing anything, other than leaving browser windows displaying web pages, open. Leaving web browser windows open, appears to be dangerous, due to the unauthorised actions performed by the software, including the opening of the unauthorised untitled windows, and, otherwise increasing usage of preocessor and memory resources. Your installation is either broken, your machine has been compromised, or you have a setting turned on that is non-standard in your profile. The examples you gave above do not pop any extra windows here on any OS or browser I've tried. (Various browsers, on Windows, Debian, Ubuntu, and OS X.) I think the examples given by others of either rebuilding your profile, and/or purging and reinstalling are a good start for troubleshooting. You might also want to log into that machine as a different user and see if the problem happens to any other users other than your own. Preferrably not root, another regular user... for sanity. Note that on the top of the first example page it says: This page has been replaced by an improved version so it will be discontinued after August 31st 2006. Please update your bookmarks. Cute. 2006, huh? They're right on the ball there at the Oz Meteorology department... Nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Mumia W.. wrote: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 04:14:11 -0500 From: Mumia W.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian User List debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:34:28 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org On 10/16/2007 01:30 AM, Bret Busby wrote: [...] The untitled windows appear to open as pop-ups, although I have a setup configuration of the web browsers, to block pop-ups, which obviously does not work within the software. The problem also appears to occur, apart from when I open links in either new tabs or new windows, when a tab within a window, automatically refreshes, such as the news and weather web pages at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDW60034.shtml and http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/ . Then, I get multiple untitled windows opened, even if I am not doing anything, other than leaving browser windows displaying web pages, open. [...] When I visit those sites in Iceweasel, I don't get the behavior you describe. It looks like your Iceweasel installation is mussed. Purge iceweasel and reinstall it. Before I go purging and reinstalling software, and trying to rebuild associations (or whatever they are named), like when I click on a link to a .pdf file and it is opened by a PDF viewer (not Adobe Acrobat - that is not installable), and then trying to again configure the reinstalled software, there is something that I should perhaps clarify, if you or someone else is trying to reproduce the problem that I encounter, and are unable to reproduce the problem. As previously mentioned, I have the problem with both Iceweasel and Iceape. In the browser windows, I tend to have multiple tabs open, for various purposes. As an example, for one country, to read the news, I have a bookmark set that I use, that has 32 URL's, so that I have at least 32 tabs open in the browser window for the news for that country. As I open links for news stories, I can have tabs open, that go off the right hand edge of the screen. I have just opened an extra tab, in that particular browser window, that went to the right edge opf the screen, and that was a count of 41 tabs open in that browser window. In the browser window that I open for this country, I have about ten tab bookmarks, and, of those, about 6 web pages automatically refresh. Due to the bodgy way that the ABC presents its news web pages, apart from five news headline web pages refreshing about every minute, each news story web page that is open, also refreshes about every minute. At present, I have 22 Iceape browser windows open, with however many tabs in total are open, and tsome of those tabs, are subject to automatic refreshing. My system monitor shows Memory- 38% in use by programs 55% in use by cache. That is including me having the xterm session running PINE, that I am using. I have no other tasks open, shown in the taskbar. In running top, for Iceape, I get 3241 bret 15 0 341m 247m 26m S 4.0 12.2 148:12.55 iceape-bin On occasion, Iceape has taken above 95% of CPU, and that is when (but not necessarily the only occasions when) it sometimes crashes of its own accord (without me closing untitled windows). I have earlier today, with these browser windows and tabs open, encountered the problem with the untitled windows. I have also encountered the problem on occasions with 10 browser windows open, and with 14 browser windows open, thence with less memory usage, both by programs and by cache. So, perhaps, if you want to try to reproduce the problem, you may need to have more than just one instance of each of the two URL's that are included in my message shown above as having the timestamp of 0130 AM. Oh, and, when I experience an application crash, and/or a gnome crash, I reboot the system, to try to avoid residual memory problems. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Bret Busby wrote: Before I go purging and reinstalling software, and trying to rebuild associations (or whatever they are named), like when I click on a link to a .pdf file and it is opened by a PDF viewer (not Adobe Acrobat - that is not installable), and then trying to again configure the reinstalled software, there is something that I should perhaps clarify, if you or someone else is trying to reproduce the problem that I encounter, and are unable to reproduce the problem. You might have us confused for software testers. We're just your peers/other users also using the software. In open software, ultimately you're responsible for coming up with a reasonable test that will reproduce the problem on multiple systems if you're experiencing a problem. Frustrating as that might be, that's how it works. Your description might help someone else recognize something they've seen before so you get help also, by their direct assistance, but if you're doing things that are out of the ordinary -- you probably won't find anyone out there at the edge of the envelope with you. This is just a mailing list of folks who are trying to help you figure it out, not the other way around. You can turn in a real bug report through the BTS if you'd like a developer to look at it. But... looking at your description below, I don't think you're going to get much in the way of a response... As an example, for one country, to read the news, I have a bookmark set that I use, that has 32 URL's, so that I have at least 32 tabs open in the browser window for the news for that country. As I open links for news stories, I can have tabs open, that go off the right hand edge of the screen. I have just opened an extra tab, in that particular browser window, that went to the right edge opf the screen, and that was a count of 41 tabs open in that browser window. 41 webpages open and you're experiencing problems. Gee, there's a big surprise. You're somewhat pushing the bounds of sanity at that point, for just about any browser. (And my interest in helping with your problem just vanished completely. I can't read 41 pages at a time, and neither can you. Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer -- I'd recommend the old adage of Doctor it hurts when I do this! probably applies. Then don't do that.) In the browser window that I open for this country, I have about ten tab bookmarks, and, of those, about 6 web pages automatically refresh. Due to the bodgy way that the ABC presents its news web pages, apart from five news headline web pages refreshing about every minute, each news story web page that is open, also refreshes about every minute. Yeah, it's the websites fault you're opening 41 web pages. LOL! We'll get right on that... I'll attempt to contact the various badly-written websites and see if they'll fix their sites just for you and little-old me. Sure they will. Maybe after we're dead. Get real. At present, I have 22 Iceape browser windows open, with however many tabs in total are open, and tsome of those tabs, are subject to automatic refreshing. That's utterly ridiculous. Have fun being a test pilot. What you're describing sounds more like a load test in a QA department than any normal needs of anyone running a web browser! On occasion, Iceape has taken above 95% of CPU, and that is when (but not necessarily the only occasions when) it sometimes crashes of its own accord (without me closing untitled windows). Yeah, well... whatever. You're so far out on a limb doing stuff that makes no sense (no one can read 41 pages at a time) that what difference do the details make at this point? I have earlier today, with these browser windows and tabs open, encountered the problem with the untitled windows. I have also encountered the problem on occasions with 10 browser windows open, and with 14 browser windows open, thence with less memory usage, both by programs and by cache. I bet you have. So, perhaps, if you want to try to reproduce the problem, you may need to have more than just one instance of each of the two URL's that are included in my message shown above as having the timestamp of 0130 AM. I bet I would. However, I'm no longer interested. Maybe some gung-ho developer or person without a real life will go on a mission to reproduce your problem at this point, but I doubt any sane person would spend much time on it. You're too far outside of the normal use curve, methinks. If you're interested in finding out what's wrong, tools are available on Linux that don't really exist (without cost) on other OS's. For example, you could start launching iceweasel inside of strace or other low-level debugging tools and trying to trap the moment when the phantom windows pop up,
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Nate Duehr wrote: Bret Busby wrote: The web addresses, or, URL's, that are involved with the unauthorised untitld windows being opened, vary, from addresses to which I have previously been, to addresses that I regularly visit, inclusing the two below, with such addresses being unlikely to involve malicious code, hence the problem appears significantly more likely to lay with some bug (or, possibly malicious code (?) ) within the particular web browser applications. It recently happened while the system monitor showed memory usage of less than 50% total (out of 2GB RAM). The untitled windows appear to open as pop-ups, although I have a setup configuration of the web browsers, to block pop-ups, which obviously does not work within the software. The problem also appears to occur, apart from when I open links in either new tabs or new windows, when a tab within a window, automatically refreshes, such as the news and weather web pages at http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDW60034.shtml and http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/ . Then, I get multiple untitled windows opened, even if I am not doing anything, other than leaving browser windows displaying web pages, open. Leaving web browser windows open, appears to be dangerous, due to the unauthorised actions performed by the software, including the opening of the unauthorised untitled windows, and, otherwise increasing usage of preocessor and memory resources. Your installation is either broken, your machine has been compromised, or you have a setting turned on that is non-standard in your profile. The examples you gave above do not pop any extra windows here on any OS or browser I've tried. (Various browsers, on Windows, Debian, Ubuntu, and OS X.) I think the examples given by others of either rebuilding your profile, and/or purging and reinstalling are a good start for troubleshooting. You might also want to log into that machine as a different user and see if the problem happens to any other users other than your own. Preferrably not root, another regular user... for sanity. Yup, I second that. That's what I would do as a test. So, to the original poster: have you done this yet? If yes, what are the results? -HS Note that on the top of the first example page it says: This page has been replaced by an improved version so it will be discontinued after August 31st 2006. Please update your bookmarks. Cute. 2006, huh? They're right on the ball there at the Oz Meteorology department... Nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 01:48:32PM -0600, Nate Duehr wrote: Your thread now (to me personally anyway reads like this): Dear Debian community, I tried to drive the car you provided at RPM red-line and excessive speeds for days on end, and it has exhibited some bad behavior when I abuse it like that! The tires fell off, and once in a while it even blows a head gasket, and has to be taken to the shop every few days! Uh-huh. Yep. LOL. _At_ redline shouldn't be a problem or the redline should be lower :)) But put the engine at redline and the gearbox in top gear and you'll probably end up going faster than the chassis (or the tires) are designed to handle. Do that on a twisty road in the rain (or in a blizzard) and life could get interestingly short. :)) My brother once had his engine at redline for 20 minutes straight. It was a 351 Windsor V8 hauling too big a trailer up a mountain. The engine finally needed rebuilding after 954,000 miles. $1,500 later it was as good as new. I don't even want to know how long it would take me to fill 20 browser windows with (what was it?) 50 tabs in each (Is that a thousand pages???) when I'm on slow dial-up. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Nate Duehr wrote: 41 webpages open and you're experiencing problems. Gee, there's a big surprise. You're somewhat pushing the bounds of sanity at that point, for just about any browser. (And my interest in helping with your problem just vanished completely. I can't read 41 pages at a time, and neither can you. Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer -- I'd recommend the old adage of Doctor it hurts when I do this! probably applies. Then don't do that.) I didn't expect bigotry on this list. But then, if that's what the list is about, so be it. In the browser window that I open for this country, I have about ten tab bookmarks, and, of those, about 6 web pages automatically refresh. Due to the bodgy way that the ABC presents its news web pages, apart from five news headline web pages refreshing about every minute, each news story web page that is open, also refreshes about every minute. Yeah, it's the websites fault you're opening 41 web pages. LOL! We'll get right on that... I'll attempt to contact the various badly-written websites and see if they'll fix their sites just for you and little-old me. Sure they will. Maybe after we're dead. Get real. I hope that you are not a professional software developer. If you are, and you tell customers to get stuffed, if they find fault with your software, then I pity any customers that you have left. But then, if they are stupid enough to stay with you, they so do at their own peril. A proverb exists; Damnant quod non intelligunt - They condemn what they do not understand. Without you knowing of the faults to which I refer in the bodgy design of the web pages, you have no idea of what you are denigrating. But then, in the tone of your comments, that is not really surprising. The bodgy design of the web pages, goes to the timestamps of the web pages, being presented in relative (x minutes/hours ago), rather than absolute (date and time of report) terms, thence, each story is updated every minute, wasting bandwidth and cpu time for each system that has such a web page open. And, when web browsers do not release unused memory, instead increasing memory and other resource usage, whenever a web page is opened or reloaded, cumlative problems occur. But then, details and the truth, appear to be of no interest to an arrogant know-it-all, such as yourself. At present, I have 22 Iceape browser windows open, with however many tabs in total are open, and tsome of those tabs, are subject to automatic refreshing. That's utterly ridiculous. Have fun being a test pilot. What you're describing sounds more like a load test in a QA department than any normal needs of anyone running a web browser! So, you are telling us that Mozilla is incapable of producing a web browser that can operate with more than one browser window and more than one tab open, and that Mozilla is inapable of producing web browsers that operate within limits of load defined by the developers, whereby, a limit is reached, and a dialogue box appears, stating You have already too many browser windows/tabs open. You need to close some browser tabs,windows, before opening any more. ? Okay. So you say that Mozilla are incompetent software developers. I am sure they would like for you to tell them that, directly. On occasion, Iceape has taken above 95% of CPU, and that is when (but not necessarily the only occasions when) it sometimes crashes of its own accord (without me closing untitled windows). Yeah, well... whatever. You're so far out on a limb doing stuff that makes no sense (no one can read 41 pages at a time) that what difference do the details make at this point? So, you do not have any books or newspapers, that have more than one page of text, and you think that all publications that involve more than one page of text, should be banned, as you are incapable of reading more than one page of text at a time? Okay. I have earlier today, with these browser windows and tabs open, encountered the problem with the untitled windows. I have also encountered the problem on occasions with 10 browser windows open, and with 14 browser windows open, thence with less memory usage, both by programs and by cache. I bet you have. So, perhaps, if you want to try to reproduce the problem, you may need to have more than just one instance of each of the two URL's that are included in my message shown above as having the timestamp of 0130 AM. I bet I would. However, I'm no longer interested. Maybe some gung-ho developer or person without a real life will go on a mission to reproduce your problem at this point, but I doubt any sane person would spend much time on it. You're too far outside of the normal use curve, methinks. If
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Nate Duehr wrote: Note that on the top of the first example page it says: This page has been replaced by an improved version so it will be discontinued after August 31st 2006. Please update your bookmarks. Cute. 2006, huh? They're right on the ball there at the Oz Meteorology department... Actually, I think that it is quite benevolent of them, to have retained that web page, even if it is past its official Use By date, as the replacement web page is not as user-friendly. But then, with your responses so far, the terms user-friendly, as with the term friendly itself, appear to be concepts with which you are not familiar. Perhaps, you may be due for your next rabies shot? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Nate Duehr wrote: Bret Busby wrote: As an example, for one country, to read the news, I have a bookmark set that I use, that has 32 URL's, so that I have at least 32 tabs open in the browser window for the news for that country. As I open links for news stories, I can have tabs open, that go off the right hand edge of the screen. I have just opened an extra tab, in that particular browser window, that went to the right edge opf the screen, and that was a count of 41 tabs open in that browser window. 41 webpages open and you're experiencing problems. Gee, there's a big surprise. You're somewhat pushing the bounds of sanity at that point, for just about any browser. Nate, that's not very helpful. In fact tip-toeing directly into rude. (And my interest in helping with your problem just vanished completely. I can't read 41 pages at a time, and neither can you. Says who? Who says you have to actively read 41 pages at a time. Hate to break it to you but when tabbed browsing came into being with Opera almost half a decade ago I found a litmus test for proper tabbed browsing to be the ability to open a folder of bookmarks in tabs with one click. Something that Phoenix ne Firebird ne Firefox ala Iceweasel didn't have for many, many revisions after it got tabbed browsing. For my part I like reading the traditional syndicated comics as well as web comics through my browser. I have a folder with 20 comics in it. I click 1 button, hover my mouse over the X to close the tab and read. Simple matter of read, click, read, click, never have to move my mouse and I get my daily dose of comics. Is that 41 tabs? No. Am I reading them all at once? No. Is it damn convenient? Yes. Would I expect it to handle 41 tabs? Yes. I've had more than that open when I browse sites like deviantart.com where I hit someone's gallery or favorites and just CNTL-Click to throw what looks interesting into the background for later perusal. Just because you haven't found the usefulness of a large number of tabs does not make it unusual or pushing the bounds of sanity. Esp. not when the OP has 2Gb to play with. Perhaps you might argue that the software should handle it perfectly, but at that level of insanity, I certainly don't care anymore... as one user to another -- since I'm not a developer or package maintainer Might I suggest since you're neither a developer or a package maintainer to keep your insults to yourself? Be helpful or be gone. I'd recommend the old adage of Doctor it hurts when I do this! probably applies. Then don't do that.) How about If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all? Bret, no clue on what's up with your experience. Nate had some good suggestions with strace and trying nightly builds so don't let his idiocy deter you from exploring those avenues. As it stands though Iceweasel can handle the 20 comic pages on my dinky little laptop (256Mb RAM) and Firefox on my game machine (WinXP, 1Gb RAM) regularly has 40-50 tabs open without major problems. So I don't think you're beyond the pale on tabs, esp. with 2Gb of RAM to play with. Not sure what's opening the extra windows though. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Steve Lamb wrote: Not sure what's opening the extra windows though. Unless it's some for of advertising from the web sites. I browse through a sqiud+adzapper proxy so I tend to miss a large portion of cruft that the net tries to throw at my browser. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 12:56:31PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote: Who is responsible for Iceape and Iceweasel? I am running Debian 4.0, which came with these two applications rather than the Mozilla applications, and the two applications appear to be quite buggy and unstable. they are renamed versions of the firefox and seamonkey(?). Otherwise there is essentially no difference between them. ... Both Iceape and Iceweasel, open up untitled windows when trying to open web pages at all kinds of locations, and, trying to close one of these untitled windows when it is initially displayed, crashes the application, including all of the browser windows that it has open; a procedure has to be used, of some time later, finding the duplicate copy of the untitled window that the application has opened, and, closing that, will cause the untitled window to close. So, when these untitled windows start opening, all that can be done, is minimising the untitled window and its duplicate (they open in pairs), and, again clicking on the link to get the destination that was sought when the application decided to goawry. I'm confused by this description above. The only thing I know of that causes this untitled window issue is when you open a .pdf or some other externally handled file while using a middle click (opening a tab). And closing them certainly doesn't crash anything. Perhaps you could provide specific instructions on how to duplicate this problem for others to try? Also, the two applications appear to be designed to use up all of the RAM, regardless of how much RAM is available and how many browser windows and tabs ar open, leading to crashes in the application, the windows manager, and, sometimes, the operating system. there are (or were at least) memory leaks. That appears to be improving in later versions coming down the pipe. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On Oct 10, 2007, at 12:20 AM, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: Both Iceape and Iceweasel, open up untitled windows when trying to open web pages at all kinds of locations, and, trying to close one of these untitled windows when it is initially displayed, crashes the application, including all of the browser windows that it has open; a procedure has to be used, of some time later, finding the duplicate copy of the untitled window that the application has opened, and, closing that, will cause the untitled window to close. So, when these untitled windows start opening, all that can be done, is minimising the untitled window and its duplicate (they open in pairs), and, again clicking on the link to get the destination that was sought when the application decided to goawry. I'm confused by this description above. The only thing I know of that causes this untitled window issue is when you open a .pdf or some other externally handled file while using a middle click (opening a tab). And closing them certainly doesn't crash anything. Perhaps you could provide specific instructions on how to duplicate this problem for others to try? Are these just pop-ups? What sites are you seeing them on, specifically? The history of the Ice named versions is here; there's virtually no difference of any consequence between them and the Mozilla branded versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_conflict_between_Debian_and_Mozilla -- Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
On 10/09/2007 11:56 PM, Bret Busby wrote: Who is responsible for Iceape and Iceweasel? apt-cache show iceweasel | grep Maintainer I am running Debian 4.0, which came with these two applications rather than the Mozilla applications, and the two applications appear to be quite buggy and unstable. Iceweasel works for me. To go to the Mozilla web site to try to install the equivalent applications (I don't remember what they are named - I think that one is seamonkey (?) ), they are not available as .deb packages for Debian, and trying to install them otherwise, is too problematic. It's not so bad. You untar a tarball, read a README and execute an installer script. Problems with that, reported t5o Mozialla, have apparently been ignored - maybe Moziila doesn't like Debian users and so ignores us, hoping we will just disappear. From where did you get this idea? Both Iceape and Iceweasel, open up untitled windows when trying to open web pages at all kinds of locations, and, trying to close one of these untitled windows when it is initially displayed, crashes the application, including all of the browser windows that it has open; a procedure has to be used, of some time later, finding the duplicate copy of the untitled window that the application has opened, and, closing that, will cause the untitled window to close. So, when these untitled windows start opening, all that can be done, is minimising the untitled window and its duplicate (they open in pairs), and, again clicking on the link to get the destination that was sought when the application decided to goawry. I first suggest that you purge and reinstall Iceweasel. If that doesn't solve the problem, come back in here with more specifics of your hardware and software. Also, the two applications appear to be designed to use up all of the RAM, regardless of how much RAM is available and how many browser windows and tabs ar open, leading to crashes in the application, the windows manager, and, sometimes, the operating system. Mozilla applications are legendary memory hogs, but I don't see this. Firefox and Thunderbird typically use 150 to 300 MB of memory on my system, but I have 512 MB of RAM, so the system rarely needs to use swap even when both programs are used at the same time. My experience has been that, when Firefox reaches 300 MB, it rarely goes beyond that; however, that is with Flash and Java disabled. If you do decide to have the courage to install Seamonkey on Etch, you need to install libstdc++5 first. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Query about Iceape, Iceweasel
Who is responsible for Iceape and Iceweasel? I am running Debian 4.0, which came with these two applications rather than the Mozilla applications, and the two applications appear to be quite buggy and unstable. To go to the Mozilla web site to try to install the equivalent applications (I don't remember what they are named - I think that one is seamonkey (?) ), they are not available as .deb packages for Debian, and trying to install them otherwise, is too problematic. Problems with that, reported t5o Mozialla, have apparently been ignored - maybe Moziila doesn't like Debian users and so ignores us, hoping we will just disappear. Both Iceape and Iceweasel, open up untitled windows when trying to open web pages at all kinds of locations, and, trying to close one of these untitled windows when it is initially displayed, crashes the application, including all of the browser windows that it has open; a procedure has to be used, of some time later, finding the duplicate copy of the untitled window that the application has opened, and, closing that, will cause the untitled window to close. So, when these untitled windows start opening, all that can be done, is minimising the untitled window and its duplicate (they open in pairs), and, again clicking on the link to get the destination that was sought when the application decided to goawry. Also, the two applications appear to be designed to use up all of the RAM, regardless of how much RAM is available and how many browser windows and tabs ar open, leading to crashes in the application, the windows manager, and, sometimes, the operating system. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
