Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Tuesday 08 January 2008, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 01/08/08 21:15, s. keeling wrote: > > Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> Over 90% of GNU/Linux-Users I know are suckers... > >> > >> Yeah GNU/Linux is free (of charge) and thats all they want. > > > > If you only listen to d-u and Usenet, the power of those users' > > noise can be deafening. On the other hand, there are huge moves in > > corporateland in adopting Linux. My present client is massive[*], > > and > > [snip] > > > [*] I do mean massive, as big as they get. It's a sweet gig. :-) > > In Canada? > > ROFLMAO Someone sounds out of shape. Just leave the body there on the floor. We can work around him. Must be overheated from all that southern sun and heat... Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On 01/08/08 21:15, s. keeling wrote: Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Over 90% of GNU/Linux-Users I know are suckers... Yeah GNU/Linux is free (of charge) and thats all they want. If you only listen to d-u and Usenet, the power of those users' noise can be deafening. On the other hand, there are huge moves in corporateland in adopting Linux. My present client is massive[*], and [snip] [*] I do mean massive, as big as they get. It's a sweet gig. :-) In Canada? ROFLMAO -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables!" unknown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Over 90% of GNU/Linux-Users I know are suckers... > > Yeah GNU/Linux is free (of charge) and thats all they want. If you only listen to d-u and Usenet, the power of those users' noise can be deafening. On the other hand, there are huge moves in corporateland in adopting Linux. My present client is massive[*], and just one of my projects involves 10,000 server installs in the next year. They're already using it heavily (as in primarily, including desktops and supercompute clusters) in a major chunk of their operation. Not every Linux user is the equivalent of the kid I was when I started drooling over this stuff. Some serious players are finally beginning to become comfortable with it. I never thought I'd live to see the day. [*] I do mean massive, as big as they get. It's a sweet gig. :-) -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Am 2008-01-01 13:35:36, schrieb Paul Johnson: > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since > trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss customers > off and limits their freedoms. Right, but HOW MANY $USER would pay for services? Over 90% of GNU/Linux-Users I know are suckers... Yeah GNU/Linux is free (of charge) and thats all they want. Using pirated copies of Win-$oftware or Linux free of charge is nearly the same... What they do not understand is, that GNU/Linux is developed mostly by volunters worldwide and then they demand for this and that feature and forgetting the "please". And if you do not implement there wishes? Your Software will be called an dozens of forums a CRAP. Sorry, but this is unfortunatly my very negative experience with it. In the last 9 years using Debian GNU/Linux I have developed over 90 programs and tools but they are only availlable for my commercial clients because I do no more want to bother with $RANDOMUSERS demanding tonns of features which I personaly or my customers never need. If my customers ask for something, they will pay since I must live from something since I am Programmer and Debian/GNU Linuy Consultant. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
--- Hal Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wednesday 02 January 2008, Andrew Sackville-West > wrote: > ... > > > I can control my system, I can't control my > clients' computers, so > > > I want a minimum of possible errors on their > computers. > > > > > > I would not want to make it easy for someone to > grab my code and > > > compete. Maybe later, but I'm still within a > year of finishing all > > > the development work. > > > > I can understand. And, as I said, I am not > attempting to discuss your > > particular usage. Just the idea of open vs. closed > source in general > > and the economic arguments in favor of clsoed > source. And frankly, > > I'm not sure where I stand in a situation like > yours. Likely in a > > similar position. > > I've considered this situation many times over. All > the tools I use are > open source. I avoid closed source programs > whenever possible and have > been quite keen to build my business on a grounds > that I consider > ethical and moral. > > My first post on this thread was in response to > someone making what I > consider a quite foolish statement that, > essentially, closed source > software was unethical. I know some people respect > (such as RMS) say > that, but I also think it's a statement that's more > easily made by > people who get nice tidy paychecks and aren't the > ones who have to > figure out how to do the marketing. > fair enough, kinda hard to separate the ideal from the practical when you have to make a living at it > > If I write a program, a story, a song, a script, or > anything else, or if > I create a song or movie or any other IP work, I > made it. Just as if I > put the effort into making a chair or a car or > anything else. It's up > to me to decide what I do with it and how I'll find > a way to get > rewarded for my work. If I want to sell it as > closed source software, > I have every right to do it. If someone doesn't > like it, then they > don't have to buy it or deal with it. > > On the flip side, I do contribute to FOSS projects > and hope, when this > work is done, that any programming I do later will > all be FOSS, but for > now, I have the task of earning a living to deal > with as well. > > > > It would level the playing field if everyone > were on the same > > > field. They're not. > > > > true. > > I think eventually we'll see more open source than > closed source, but > over the past 25 years or so, it seems the > innovations have been made > in closed source, then emulated in open source. > There are advantages > to different business models. > i agree with both sides of the equasion here but, personally find that any reason to open source seems to make sense for the business as well. examples being in the updating and maintanece of systems, the fact that the company was going to pay for software either way, so why not develop it in a model that allows them to have it modified to meet their needs even if the origional programer is no longer with the company. further, the open source model seems to be of benefit in areas where sensitive data is concerned (anyone can write an encription program, but if it is available in an open source setting, like debugging it benefits from more eyes to see problems) like always just my 0.02 jwlockhart Registered Linux User #458799 Registered Kubuntu User #19678 this user is penguin powered Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?(resent to list, sorry hal)
On Jan 2, 2008, at 3:04 PM, Angus Auld wrote: I'm not familiar with the flow of things here on this list, but I hope no one is offended if I am amused by these sort of communications. It's all in good fun. (I hope. That's how I intended my comment, anyway.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: Re: Galeon R.I.P?(resent to list, sorry hal)
--- Angus Auld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:58:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Angus Auld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Galeon R.I.P? > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --- Hal Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Wednesday 02 January 2008, David Brodbeck > wrote: > > > On Jan 2, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > On 01/02/08 08:20, s. keeling wrote: > > > >> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > >> Says you. I think you should spend the next > > year in a Cat in the > > > >> Hat suit, but I doubt you'll comply. > > > > > > > > He wears furry bear suits. Why not furry cat > > suits? > > > > > > "So what are you telling us, Lister? That > you're > > a closet squirrel? > > > Behind closed doors you parade up and down with > a > > strap-on bushy > > > tail, calling yourself Nutkin?" -- Rimmer, Red > > Dwarf > > > > That's very nice, Mr. Flibble, now, please get > back > > in the quarantine > > chamber with your holographic buddy, Arnold, and > his > > bronze swimming > > certificate. > > > > Hal > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I am new on this list, and also to Debian, but not > to > Linux, which I > have been using for several years now. > I'm not familiar with the flow of things here on > this > list, but I hope > no one is offended if I am amused by these sort of > communications. > Linux is sure a great basis for discerning folks to > come together > and interface.I really love Linux. :) > Open source rules as far as I am concerned, but, I > do > no more than use and appreciate it's benefits. > I have much to learn about the *real world* > implications. > > I am just thankful to be able to thumb my nose at > Bill > Gates et. al., and enjoy my computer. > > Thanks Linux! > > Best regards, and a happy new year to all. > > > -- Angus > > ##Linux Laptop powered by Debian Linux## > ###Reg. Linux User #278931### Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Wednesday 02 January 2008, David Brodbeck wrote: > On Jan 2, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Ron Johnson wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On 01/02/08 08:20, s. keeling wrote: > >> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> Says you. I think you should spend the next year in a Cat in the > >> Hat suit, but I doubt you'll comply. > > > > He wears furry bear suits. Why not furry cat suits? > > "So what are you telling us, Lister? That you're a closet squirrel? > Behind closed doors you parade up and down with a strap-on bushy > tail, calling yourself Nutkin?" -- Rimmer, Red Dwarf That's very nice, Mr. Flibble, now, please get back in the quarantine chamber with your holographic buddy, Arnold, and his bronze swimming certificate. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Jan 2, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/02/08 08:20, s. keeling wrote: Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Says you. I think you should spend the next year in a Cat in the Hat suit, but I doubt you'll comply. He wears furry bear suits. Why not furry cat suits? "So what are you telling us, Lister? That you're a closet squirrel? Behind closed doors you parade up and down with a strap-on bushy tail, calling yourself Nutkin?" -- Rimmer, Red Dwarf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Jan 1, 2008, at 9:41 PM, Hal Vaughan wrote: I know some people respect (such as RMS) say that, but I also think it's a statement that's more easily made by people who get nice tidy paychecks and aren't the ones who have to figure out how to do the marketing. AMEN to that. It's so easy for people to say "all information should be free" when they have a day job that provides them with a guaranteed paycheck. The sentiment that IP isn't worth anything is pretty disturbing to people who have to make a living off it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/02/08 08:20, s. keeling wrote: > Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> On Jan 1, 2008 7:10 AM, s. keeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera > for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally correct answer. >>> Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel or >>> AMD? Aren't they proprietary? >> Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic >> reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since > > Says you. I think you should spend the next year in a Cat in the Hat > suit, but I doubt you'll comply. He wears furry bear suits. Why not furry cat suits? > Programmers doing that work for paying customers generally do what the > paying customers request, not what the programmers decide to give > them. Any possibility for immorality in the process would be better > pointed at customers, not programmers. > > So, are you going to slam all your friends and family for their > egregious immorality in using Windows? Probably already has. >I think they're foolish for > doing that, not immoral. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables!" unknown -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHe6OjS9HxQb37XmcRAjVgAJ41MAG3a3GG2pDsRk0lFnmCVsopBQCgp74G 9shClpGJC5bdsE8nS4G/HCc= =9HMD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/02/08 06:21, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> [snip] >> >> Yup. I just had a 2-week fling with KDE. *Really* configurable >> (thank $DEITY, because their defaults suck), but KDE 3.5.8 is a lot >> slower than even GNOME 2.14 and the KDE versions of the apps (mail, >> web browsing, usenet reading, stargazing, > > > ? You want examples? >> listening to music) which >> I use the most are either not as fully functional or work in a >> radically different manner than which I am used to using. >> >> IMO, GNOME/Gtk apps seem to feel[*] like Windows apps. Some will >> think that's Bad, but because I need to have a Windows PC right next >> to my Linux box, that's a Good Thing. > > > Take out the PC, take out the videocard, put that into the other PC, > leave the monitor/keyboard, mouse and reconfigure xorg.conf for 2 of > each. The install the VMware Server and run Windows on it. > > I run XP without servicepacks from 2001 that way. And the behavior of XP > is impressive. Gets all the displays right. When building my (now 5 week old) PC, I thought about going 64-bit and using a hypervisor, but decided that it would be much simpler to move hda to the new box, and mv movies, etc to a new data-only drive. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables!" unknown -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHe6MqS9HxQb37XmcRAlvlAJoCRAJq6DCufQMUXH2hshws2Z19QQCff5lS PXV+GfzCDfUub3VeMXWZmxQ= =cgTt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Jan 1, 2008 7:10 AM, s. keeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera > > > > for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. > > > > > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally > > > correct answer. > > > > Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel or > > AMD? Aren't they proprietary? > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since Says you. I think you should spend the next year in a Cat in the Hat suit, but I doubt you'll comply. Programmers doing that work for paying customers generally do what the paying customers request, not what the programmers decide to give them. Any possibility for immorality in the process would be better pointed at customers, not programmers. So, are you going to slam all your friends and family for their egregious immorality in using Windows? I think they're foolish for doing that, not immoral. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/31/07 11:28, ZephyrQ wrote: Kelly Clowers wrote: On Dec 29, 2007 8:50 AM, ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to reproduce: Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the top/bottom/left. Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. Years ago, Galeon was forked to create Epiphany. A few years later, they recombined under the name Epiphany. http://www.linux.com/feature/50021 I don't know how the feature-set of Epiphany+extensions compares to Galeon overall. There is a tabs-left extension, but no tabs-right extension as far as I can see. However, I just changed 5 words and the file names of the tabs-left extension and created a working tabs-right extension. Here is the code for the tabs-left extension: http://rmjokers.blogspot.com/2006/11/dont-let-tabs-control-you.html I think you can see just by looking at it how to make tabs-right. Cheers, Kelly Clowers Thanks for this, but I remember when Epiphany was developed...to be a 'simpler, kinder' browser. Unfortunately, every time I use it, I miss the ability to tweak it (again, I've used the same settings for Galeon for 5+ years...). Thanks for all the input. I'm trying to play with IceWeasel now to make it suit my needs, but I will look at Opera to play with it. Change is hard... Yup. I just had a 2-week fling with KDE. *Really* configurable (thank $DEITY, because their defaults suck), but KDE 3.5.8 is a lot slower than even GNOME 2.14 and the KDE versions of the apps (mail, web browsing, usenet reading, stargazing, ? listening to music) which I use the most are either not as fully functional or work in a radically different manner than which I am used to using. IMO, GNOME/Gtk apps seem to feel[*] like Windows apps. Some will think that's Bad, but because I need to have a Windows PC right next to my Linux box, that's a Good Thing. Take out the PC, take out the videocard, put that into the other PC, leave the monitor/keyboard, mouse and reconfigure xorg.conf for 2 of each. The install the VMware Server and run Windows on it. I run XP without servicepacks from 2001 that way. And the behavior of XP is impressive. Gets all the displays right. If GNOME had a more complete and full-featured "control center" and Miguel de Icaza didn't have his ass half-way up Bill Gates' ass, it would be the perfect DE for someone who wants to *use* a computer instead of constantly fiddle with it. [*] Except that GNOME/Gtk apps know how to multi-thread, and don't crash. Hugo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Hal Vaughan wrote: I think eventually we'll see more open source than closed source, but over the past 25 years or so, it seems the innovations have been made in closed source, then emulated in open source. There are advantages to different business models. The first IBM mainframes back in the 1960s arrived with free open source software and a license that said you could not redistribute the software or move it to a different brand of computer. Lots of people contributed improvements to the software because they did not see programming as producing valuable intellectual property. Software can be free, open, and collaborative but still restricted. The American government eventually sued IBM over some anti trust issue. IBM dropped their hardware prices and started charging for the open source software. The total bill was the same. Lots of people demanded better software out of the box because they were now paying for the software. Most people stopped contributing and started thinking about how they could develop their ideas as separate add on products they could sell. Neither the BSD or GPL licence stop you selling add on products. IBM eventually stopped distributing the software in source code because so many people made changes without contributing the changes back to the developers. Those changes made support too expensive and IBM removed the source code to prevent all those little tweaks. Source code can create problems. Open source can lead to sloppy code development if you expect other people to detect and fix all the problems for you. Unix arrived with an open source model and promptly exploded into more variations than there were computers. Linux had to go through the hassle of stopping the base system exploding into a million versions and is now trying to unify the main variations. The Apache model of a stable base and lots of plug in modules is the best approach. The plug in modules do not have to be free. I like open source software because I can see what it is doing and ensure the software is secure. Australia has data privacy laws that cannot be met by closed source software. The software has to be open but does not have to be free. You can use an application for months before you find a major problem, which is too late to recover your data if the data is locked in a proprietary data store. I look for software that uses a free open database I can access with other tools if the application fails. The application does not have to be free but I must be able to keep the data and access the data if I stop using the application. You could sell me an expensive application if you used MySQL or PostgreSQL to store the data and provide a way to control, log, and audit everything that your application puts on or accepts off the network. I like the software model where people offer free open products for beginners and amateurs then offer a commercial version for professionals who use the product to make money. MySQL has a free version that I use to develop most projects and a commercial cluster version I recommend for large corporate projects. One of the examples mentioned in an earlier post was a client server application. If I was looking at that application, I would demand the client be open so I can see exactly what data is sent to the server and I would demand a daily backup of my data from the server in an open form where I can access the data without proprietary tools, a form suitable for into to alternative software. Free access to my data is more important than free software. MYOB costs a trivial amount of money but I threw it out because they refused to switch to an open database or provide an open SQL interface. I would have paid ten times the cost of MYOB for a good open alternative. Peter Moulding Helping you help your customers Web: PeterMoulding.com Speaker: Translate Geek speak to business language. Entertain and educate your customers and staff with a Web site roast. Strategic technology direction for your board. "impressed by his knowledge of the subject" "business-oriented" Author: 2 books 5 languages in 80 countries. Ghost writer for your articles and speeches. Mentor for your next book. "exceptional" "the greatest" "amazing" Trainer: Now in Australia, the workshops enjoyed in America and Europe. Web Architect:Increase sales. Retain customers. Decrease costs. Proven 1000% effective. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Wednesday 02 January 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: ... I can control my system, I can't control my clients' computers, so I want a minimum of possible errors on their computers. I would not want to make it easy for someone to grab my code and compete. Maybe later, but I'm still within a year of finishing all the development work. I can understand. And, as I said, I am not attempting to discuss your particular usage. Just the idea of open vs. closed source in general and the economic arguments in favor of clsoed source. And frankly, I'm not sure where I stand in a situation like yours. Likely in a similar position. I've considered this situation many times over. All the tools I use are open source. I avoid closed source programs whenever possible and have been quite keen to build my business on a grounds that I consider ethical and moral. My first post on this thread was in response to someone making what I consider a quite foolish statement that, essentially, closed source software was unethical. I know some people respect (such as RMS) say that, but I also think it's a statement that's more easily made by people who get nice tidy paychecks and aren't the ones who have to figure out how to do the marketing. Collectively, so far, there is no competitive aspect in the thinking. Rather than two opposing camps being set up, with the classic "either, or" duality, all we have to do is change our thinking. There are those that insist that the creator of the work is being selfish in retaining ownership of his work and not releasing it into the "commons" or "public domain", whichever applies, but if he/she is, it's the same degree of selfishness that resides in the mental attitude that presumes they are entitled to feed off the creation of another without having provided any input themselves. Parasitism, basically. In an environment where the fiscal aspect means survival, earning money from the sweat of one's brow is not an unethical behaviour. There is a middle road, and it doesn't reside in the "99 years with option" style of copyright currently established and being spread from the American realm of jurisprudence into the realms of other nations by way of free trade agreements and the ilk. The present movement of establishing a wide range of copyright and patenting options is a healthy one, giving everybody their individual choice in the situation, and individual choice is what it's all about. The patent scenario is every bit as insane as that posited by the current copyright debacle. Say I was to come up with an original idea for a product. I would have no problem in registering a patent that had a maximum term of fifteen years. This would give me the time to source finance (5 years?). The time to commence manufacture and begin to establish a profit from my invention (5 years?). The time to streamline my processes and place myself into an unassailable position in the marketplace, well ahead of any competition (5 years?). Anybody know what the current patent term is? After 15 years I would have no problem in placing my creation into the public domain so that others could build on it, and would get as great a deal of pleasure from seeing the benefit to the greater good of the community at large, as I would from any other stage of the process. Perhaps more. Copyright's the same. Current lack of philosophies do nothing but benefit the few at the expense of the common good. Nothing new here, so the thinking is wrong. > If I write a program, a story, a song, a script, or anything else, or if I create a song or movie or any other IP work, I made it. Just as if I put the effort into making a chair or a car or anything else. It's up to me to decide what I do with it and how I'll find a way to get rewarded for my work. If I want to sell it as closed source software, I have every right to do it. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't have to buy it or deal with it. On the flip side, I do contribute to FOSS projects and hope, when this work is done, that any programming I do later will all be FOSS, but for now, I have the task of earning a living to deal with as well. It would level the playing field if everyone were on the same field. They're not. true. I think eventually we'll see more open source than closed source, but over the past 25 years or so, it seems the innovations have been made in closed source, then emulated in open source. There are advantages to different business models. Yes, they breed competition which is always good on the evolutionary level, but the longer it stays closed source, the closer to the "dog in a manger" philosophy it becomes. I don't disagree with making money off honest effort. I've never made it any other way. But the longer the original idea is unavailable to the public domain, innovation is stifled and the common good of the community is held in suspended animati
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Wednesday 02 January 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: ... > > I can control my system, I can't control my clients' computers, so > > I want a minimum of possible errors on their computers. > > > > I would not want to make it easy for someone to grab my code and > > compete. Maybe later, but I'm still within a year of finishing all > > the development work. > > I can understand. And, as I said, I am not attempting to discuss your > particular usage. Just the idea of open vs. closed source in general > and the economic arguments in favor of clsoed source. And frankly, > I'm not sure where I stand in a situation like yours. Likely in a > similar position. I've considered this situation many times over. All the tools I use are open source. I avoid closed source programs whenever possible and have been quite keen to build my business on a grounds that I consider ethical and moral. My first post on this thread was in response to someone making what I consider a quite foolish statement that, essentially, closed source software was unethical. I know some people respect (such as RMS) say that, but I also think it's a statement that's more easily made by people who get nice tidy paychecks and aren't the ones who have to figure out how to do the marketing. If I write a program, a story, a song, a script, or anything else, or if I create a song or movie or any other IP work, I made it. Just as if I put the effort into making a chair or a car or anything else. It's up to me to decide what I do with it and how I'll find a way to get rewarded for my work. If I want to sell it as closed source software, I have every right to do it. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't have to buy it or deal with it. On the flip side, I do contribute to FOSS projects and hope, when this work is done, that any programming I do later will all be FOSS, but for now, I have the task of earning a living to deal with as well. > > It would level the playing field if everyone were on the same > > field. They're not. > > true. I think eventually we'll see more open source than closed source, but over the past 25 years or so, it seems the innovations have been made in closed source, then emulated in open source. There are advantages to different business models. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:52:16PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: > On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 05:08:20PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: > > > On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > > > > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service > > > > since trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss > > > > customers off and limits their freedoms. > > > > > > There is, though, economic reason to not release software code. > > > > > > If I had to open source the part of my system that goes on my > > > clients' computers, someone who didn't put in the effort to develop > > > it would start a company without the development costs and cause me > > > serious damage. > > > > I think this is often an over-inflated worry. ... > > > > If your code isn't sufficiently complex to force this situation (I > > don't mean gratuitously complex, BTW), then maybe your code isn't > > worth all that much anyway? (no comment intended on your code > > specifically, just talking generalities here) > > Most of the work is done on my local servers, but what I do is something > many companies do, at least up to a certain point. I've gone out of my > way to make sure the software on my clients' computers is as simple as > possible. Basically all the work is done here, preparing it for a few > final steps that take place o their system. This is a large part of > what makes my stuff different from almost anyone else. > > I can control my system, I can't control my clients' computers, so I > want a minimum of possible errors on their computers. > > I would not want to make it easy for someone to grab my code and > compete. Maybe later, but I'm still within a year of finishing all the > development work. I can understand. And, as I said, I am not attempting to discuss your particular usage. Just the idea of open vs. closed source in general and the economic arguments in favor of clsoed source. And frankly, I'm not sure where I stand in a situation like yours. Likely in a similar position. ... > > It would level the playing field if everyone were on the same field. > They're not. true. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 05:08:20PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: > > On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote: > > ... > > > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > > > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service > > > since trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss > > > customers off and limits their freedoms. > > > > There is, though, economic reason to not release software code. > > > > If I had to open source the part of my system that goes on my > > clients' computers, someone who didn't put in the effort to develop > > it would start a company without the development costs and cause me > > serious damage. > > I think this is often an over-inflated worry. I dabble in hacking on > some open-source stuff a little bit here and there. In any > sufficiently complex project, there is a *huge* learning curve to > become proficient enough to truly support a product, much less meet > customers' needs for changes and improvements. > > Sure, I could take whatever code you open and probably hack at it and > make it do a few few things differently in pretty short order, but > that would catch up with me quickly. Either the customer would need > something I simply wasn't yet in a position to implement, or I woudl > break something in some unforeseen way and end up mired in spaghetti > source code I don't fully understand trying to hack my way out of the > proverbial paper bag. > > So if your code is sufficiently complex to cause this kind of > difficulty for someone using it to compete with you, then your own > expertise will win out in the end. You'll be able to implement > changes, track down bugs, support users etc with much more efficiency > than the competition and in the long run win out. > > If your code isn't sufficiently complex to force this situation (I > don't mean gratuitously complex, BTW), then maybe your code isn't > worth all that much anyway? (no comment intended on your code > specifically, just talking generalities here) Most of the work is done on my local servers, but what I do is something many companies do, at least up to a certain point. I've gone out of my way to make sure the software on my clients' computers is as simple as possible. Basically all the work is done here, preparing it for a few final steps that take place o their system. This is a large part of what makes my stuff different from almost anyone else. I can control my system, I can't control my clients' computers, so I want a minimum of possible errors on their computers. I would not want to make it easy for someone to grab my code and compete. Maybe later, but I'm still within a year of finishing all the development work. ... > > While some feel > > it's okay to download any song for free and others want to control > > everyone's complete use of a song, movie, or software (for > > instance, the MS license that does not allow using standard XP as a > > web server for public use), we do have to remember that it takes > > work to produce IP and much of what's out there would not be there > > if it weren't for people and companies being able to get a return > > on their investment. > > I think the disparity comes in when the profit motives far exceed the > realistic income expectations of a normal human being. It wasn't more > than about a generation ago that song writers didn't get rich writing > songs, they just made a living (and often a meager one at that). And some did quite well. George Gershwin wasn't broke. I don't think Harold Arlen died in poverty and there are many other song writers that did quite well. Some did very well, but yes, there were more that made a living and that was about it. > Same > with musicians. There was a fragmented market with many people in > many places earning a small living doing creative things. Now you > have mega-corporations making huge profits by pushing a handful of > "artists" at us. THey've consolidated it, provided an artifical > scarcity of sorts by controlling the market, and created an > atmosphere where if one doesn't make *millions* doing music, then > there is no point in doing it. What bothers me is that people use the mega-corps as an excuse or rationalization for not paying at all. If one really were on a moral crusade, why not download, then send a check directly to the songwriters and musicians for a percentage of what they'd pay for an album. I think we're seeing the last years of the mega-corps running the music business and it's just possible that sometime within the next decade, we'll see the music business changing back to an emphasis on, believe it or not, music. Perhaps then we'll see musicians that can play doing well as opposed to those who merely act like spoiled brats on stage. > How many peices of software, or support contracts or whatever do you > have to sell to make a decent living? And do yo
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 05:08:20PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: > On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote: ... > > > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since > > trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss customers > > off and limits their freedoms. > > There is, though, economic reason to not release software code. > > If I had to open source the part of my system that goes on my clients' > computers, someone who didn't put in the effort to develop it would > start a company without the development costs and cause me serious > damage. I think this is often an over-inflated worry. I dabble in hacking on some open-source stuff a little bit here and there. In any sufficiently complex project, there is a *huge* learning curve to become proficient enough to truly support a product, much less meet customers' needs for changes and improvements. Sure, I could take whatever code you open and probably hack at it and make it do a few few things differently in pretty short order, but that would catch up with me quickly. Either the customer would need something I simply wasn't yet in a position to implement, or I woudl break something in some unforeseen way and end up mired in spaghetti source code I don't fully understand trying to hack my way out of the proverbial paper bag. So if your code is sufficiently complex to cause this kind of difficulty for someone using it to compete with you, then your own expertise will win out in the end. You'll be able to implement changes, track down bugs, support users etc with much more efficiency than the competition and in the long run win out. If your code isn't sufficiently complex to force this situation (I don't mean gratuitously complex, BTW), then maybe your code isn't worth all that much anyway? (no comment intended on your code specifically, just talking generalities here) > > But maybe I'm wrong. After all, it's so easy to take a moral high > ground and say you know what's absolutely right when you're the one who > has nothing at stake by following what you say. > > There is a serious need for balance in the field of IP. Indeed. > While some feel > it's okay to download any song for free and others want to control > everyone's complete use of a song, movie, or software (for instance, > the MS license that does not allow using standard XP as a web server > for public use), we do have to remember that it takes work to produce > IP and much of what's out there would not be there if it weren't for > people and companies being able to get a return on their investment. I think the disparity comes in when the profit motives far exceed the realistic income expectations of a normal human being. It wasn't more than about a generation ago that song writers didn't get rich writing songs, they just made a living (and often a meager one at that). Same with musicians. There was a fragmented market with many people in many places earning a small living doing creative things. Now you have mega-corporations making huge profits by pushing a handful of "artists" at us. THey've consolidated it, provided an artifical scarcity of sorts by controlling the market, and created an atmosphere where if one doesn't make *millions* doing music, then there is no point in doing it. How many peices of software, or support contracts or whatever do you have to sell to make a decent living? And do you expect to make that living continuously for an extended period of time without continued work? or even develop and grow your products to the point where not only do you make a living, but you make many times more than a living and develop a large corporation? I'm not criticizing with these questions, just putting them out there as things to consider. ISTM that open source sort of levels the playing field a little bit, gives some control back to the little guy, allows little guys to make a living, possibly, with systems much more complex and robust than what one person could create on their own all as a benefit of the communal nature of the product. It's all food for thought, IMO. Happy New Year! A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/08 15:35, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Jan 1, 2008 7:10 AM, s. keeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >>> On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. >>> You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally >>> correct answer. >> Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel or >> AMD? Aren't they proprietary? > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since > trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss customers > off and limits their freedoms. I know someone who's on rms' Christmas card list... - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables!" unknown -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHetRaS9HxQb37XmcRAq09AKC14nWUNZ2CN5Ud6Rb7QMb8OzHYuACg7q56 C/pvSvZChr4ERokIbRY+cdU= =rOf4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
--- ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Angus Auld wrote: > > --- ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>> big snip>> > >>Just played with Opera for a while. I was > >> impressed. Not afraid to > >> pay $ for it if it can hold up to everyday usage > >> (heck, considering how > >> much $ I **don't** pay for software, dropping a > few > >> bucks here and there > >> for a program worth it feels good...). > >> > >>Now I just have to make sure it handles .pdf > stuff > >> right (work > >> requirement). > > Pay for it??? Opera doesn't ask for money > > anymoreunless > > you wish to donate to their cause. > > Considering how they have been pushing back > against > > ms's > > BS, maybe we should all donate. ;) > > > > I really like Opera, and inspite of some > difficulties > > having to do > > with plugins, I haven't found a browser that I am > as > > satisfied > > with as theirs. The Wand feature is a real winner > for > > me, as well > > as Speed Dial. > > If you are adventureous, and want to try Opera > beta > > releases, > > go here: > > > > http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ > > > > Opera 9.50 promises to be even better. :) > > > > Like I said, I really like Opera. > > > Heh, been out of the 'latest-greatest' game for a > while. I guess I > still thought Opera was a 'for pay' proposition. > Imagine my surprise > when I didn't see any ads and/or a shareware notice > come up while > playing with it. > > I'm setting it up as my new browser now--a long > term project as I have > decided that I won't import my bookmarks (8+ years > of bookmarking has > left my bookmarks, well, bloated. I google > everything now anyway...) > and will just transfer sites/passwords as necessary. > > Dumb question, if I want a folder of bookmarks on > my personal toolbar, > can I change the icon from a folder to something > else? If so, how? I > couldn't find how to do it yet. >>> I think you can make the change you desire, if I understand your question correctly. Opera's bookmarks file can be found ~/.opera/opera6.adr. You should be able to modify that file to suit your needs. I'm glad you find Opera worth your attention. They have an Opera Linux mailing list that has proved helpful in my experience, and I feel the Opera team works hard to make their browser a quality Linux, and, cross platform browser. The mailing list info, and a link to the list archives, can be found here: https://list.opera.com/mailman/listinfo/opera-linux HTHs. -- Angus ##Linux Laptop powered by Debian Linux## ###Reg. Linux User #278931### Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Tuesday 01 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Jan 1, 2008 7:10 AM, s. keeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > > > > > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's > > > > > been my > > > > > > > > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up > > > > with opera for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't > > > > have everything. > > > > > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally > > > correct answer. > > > > Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel > > or AMD? Aren't they proprietary? > > Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic > reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since > trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss customers > off and limits their freedoms. There is, though, economic reason to not release software code. If I had to open source the part of my system that goes on my clients' computers, someone who didn't put in the effort to develop it would start a company without the development costs and cause me serious damage. But maybe I'm wrong. After all, it's so easy to take a moral high ground and say you know what's absolutely right when you're the one who has nothing at stake by following what you say. There is a serious need for balance in the field of IP. While some feel it's okay to download any song for free and others want to control everyone's complete use of a song, movie, or software (for instance, the MS license that does not allow using standard XP as a web server for public use), we do have to remember that it takes work to produce IP and much of what's out there would not be there if it weren't for people and companies being able to get a return on their investment. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Jan 1, 2008 7:10 AM, s. keeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > > > > > > > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my > > > > > > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera > > > for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. > > > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally > > correct answer. > > Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel or > AMD? Aren't they proprietary? Hardware has scarcity which software lacks. There's no economic reason to sell software. Programmers should sell their service since trying to sell the product is, by definition, going to piss customers off and limits their freedoms. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Angus Auld wrote: --- ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: big snip>> Just played with Opera for a while. I was impressed. Not afraid to pay $ for it if it can hold up to everyday usage (heck, considering how much $ I **don't** pay for software, dropping a few bucks here and there for a program worth it feels good...). Now I just have to make sure it handles .pdf stuff right (work requirement). Pay for it??? Opera doesn't ask for money anymoreunless you wish to donate to their cause. Considering how they have been pushing back against ms's BS, maybe we should all donate. ;) I really like Opera, and inspite of some difficulties having to do with plugins, I haven't found a browser that I am as satisfied with as theirs. The Wand feature is a real winner for me, as well as Speed Dial. If you are adventureous, and want to try Opera beta releases, go here: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ Opera 9.50 promises to be even better. :) Like I said, I really like Opera. Heh, been out of the 'latest-greatest' game for a while. I guess I still thought Opera was a 'for pay' proposition. Imagine my surprise when I didn't see any ads and/or a shareware notice come up while playing with it. I'm setting it up as my new browser now--a long term project as I have decided that I won't import my bookmarks (8+ years of bookmarking has left my bookmarks, well, bloated. I google everything now anyway...) and will just transfer sites/passwords as necessary. Dumb question, if I want a folder of bookmarks on my personal toolbar, can I change the icon from a folder to something else? If so, how? I couldn't find how to do it yet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > > > > > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my > > > > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera > > for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally > correct answer. Since when does proprietary == immoral? Who made your CPU? Intel or AMD? Aren't they proprietary? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Wildly OT] Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:31:39 -0600 Kent West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > It's a Very Big Universe, and I'm not hubristic (is that a word?) > > enough to make such a claim. > > For the Jesus-followers out there, he put it this way for the > know-it-alls, which agrees with Ron's take on matters: /"If you were > blind," Jesus told them, "you wouldn't have sin. ^ But now that you say, > 'We see'—your sin remains./ - John 9:41 > > And if "hubristic" is not a word, it should be; I like it. > and the Spaniards in central America used it when they read the bible aloud to the locals , then said that they are no longer knowledge-less innocents (blind in your words) and thus it is OK to kill them for not following the bible ... Personally I believe that everyone should have a right to decide what they want to do with the software and how to distribute it. My main gripes with M$ in that respect is not so much that it is a shitty software, but more with the fact that they force me to pay for it even if I don't want it or use it (came with my new laptop, and despite junking it as soon as the laptop was turned on, I'm still stuck with paying for it).
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
--- ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>big snip>> > Just played with Opera for a while. I was > impressed. Not afraid to > pay $ for it if it can hold up to everyday usage > (heck, considering how > much $ I **don't** pay for software, dropping a few > bucks here and there > for a program worth it feels good...). > > Now I just have to make sure it handles .pdf stuff > right (work > requirement). Pay for it??? Opera doesn't ask for money anymoreunless you wish to donate to their cause. Considering how they have been pushing back against ms's BS, maybe we should all donate. ;) I really like Opera, and inspite of some difficulties having to do with plugins, I haven't found a browser that I am as satisfied with as theirs. The Wand feature is a real winner for me, as well as Speed Dial. If you are adventureous, and want to try Opera beta releases, go here: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ Opera 9.50 promises to be even better. :) Like I said, I really like Opera. -- Angus ##Linux Laptop powered by Debian Linux## ###Reg. Linux User #278931### Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Dec 29, 2007 8:50 AM, ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to reproduce: Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the top/bottom/left. Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. Thanks for this, but I remember when Epiphany was developed...to be a 'simpler, kinder' browser. Unfortunately, every time I use it, I miss the ability to tweak it (again, I've used the same settings for Galeon for 5+ years...). Thanks for all the input. I'm trying to play with IceWeasel now to make it suit my needs, but I will look at Opera to play with it. Change is hard... IMO, GNOME/Gtk apps seem to feel[*] like Windows apps. Some will think that's Bad, but because I need to have a Windows PC right next to my Linux box, that's a Good Thing. If GNOME had a more complete and full-featured "control center" and Miguel de Icaza didn't have his ass half-way up Bill Gates' ass, it would be the perfect DE for someone who wants to *use* a computer instead of constantly fiddle with it. [*] Except that GNOME/Gtk apps know how to multi-thread, and don't crash. Just played with Opera for a while. I was impressed. Not afraid to pay $ for it if it can hold up to everyday usage (heck, considering how much $ I **don't** pay for software, dropping a few bucks here and there for a program worth it feels good...). Now I just have to make sure it handles .pdf stuff right (work requirement). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Wildly OT] Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Ron Johnson wrote: It's a Very Big Universe, and I'm not hubristic (is that a word?) enough to make such a claim. For the Jesus-followers out there, he put it this way for the know-it-alls, which agrees with Ron's take on matters: /"If you were blind," Jesus told them, "you wouldn't have sin. ^ But now that you say, 'We see'—your sin remains./ - John 9:41 And if "hubristic" is not a word, it should be; I like it. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/31/07 11:28, ZephyrQ wrote: > Kelly Clowers wrote: >> On Dec 29, 2007 8:50 AM, ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is >>> does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried >>> FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to >>> reproduce: >>> >>> Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I >>> miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the >>> top/bottom/left. >>> >>> Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side >>> by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. >> >> Years ago, Galeon was forked to create Epiphany. A few years later, >> they recombined under the name Epiphany. >> >> http://www.linux.com/feature/50021 >> >> I don't know how the feature-set of Epiphany+extensions compares >> to Galeon overall. >> >> There is a tabs-left extension, but no tabs-right extension as far as >> I can see. However, I just changed 5 words and the file names of the >> tabs-left extension and created a working tabs-right extension. >> >> Here is the code for the tabs-left extension: >> http://rmjokers.blogspot.com/2006/11/dont-let-tabs-control-you.html >> >> I think you can see just by looking at it how to make tabs-right. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Kelly Clowers > > Thanks for this, but I remember when Epiphany was developed...to be > a 'simpler, kinder' browser. Unfortunately, every time I use it, I miss > the ability to tweak it (again, I've used the same settings for Galeon > for 5+ years...). > > Thanks for all the input. I'm trying to play with IceWeasel now to > make it suit my needs, but I will look at Opera to play with it. > > Change is hard... Yup. I just had a 2-week fling with KDE. *Really* configurable (thank $DEITY, because their defaults suck), but KDE 3.5.8 is a lot slower than even GNOME 2.14 and the KDE versions of the apps (mail, web browsing, usenet reading, stargazing, listening to music) which I use the most are either not as fully functional or work in a radically different manner than which I am used to using. IMO, GNOME/Gtk apps seem to feel[*] like Windows apps. Some will think that's Bad, but because I need to have a Windows PC right next to my Linux box, that's a Good Thing. If GNOME had a more complete and full-featured "control center" and Miguel de Icaza didn't have his ass half-way up Bill Gates' ass, it would be the perfect DE for someone who wants to *use* a computer instead of constantly fiddle with it. [*] Except that GNOME/Gtk apps know how to multi-thread, and don't crash. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile." Santa-bot -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHeTUQS9HxQb37XmcRAvjkAJ9YPbuQKlV58ym5/F7HBA+B7jUiPwCgxbDj OTmX8AyAe0xAvl8eG3/dNSw= =iFnF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Wildly OT] Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/07 22:45, Hal Vaughan wrote: > On Sunday 30 December 2007, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 12/30/07 21:04, Paul Johnson wrote: >>> On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been > my browser of choice for many moons. Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. >>> You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally >>> correct answer. >> Sure, if *your* morality is The One True Morality... > > You mean you don't believe that your morality is? It's a Very Big Universe, and I'm not hubristic (is that a word?) enough to make such a claim. (Anyone who's been here a while should not be surprised that Paul has such a quality.) However... I *do* think that the moral compass (which is not particularly unique or special) which I follow is a good one, and that the country would be better off if more people followed it. Because if I did *not* think it was a good moral compass I wouldn't (try to) follow it!! - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile." Santa-bot -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHeTDQS9HxQb37XmcRArtQAKDi0mlPW6vcJ/rREIilSHyW9Vxh+gCfdM4j Omv57kufRHH1Z56VXpSRAVs= =9LbW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
Kelly Clowers wrote: On Dec 29, 2007 8:50 AM, ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to reproduce: Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the top/bottom/left. Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. Years ago, Galeon was forked to create Epiphany. A few years later, they recombined under the name Epiphany. http://www.linux.com/feature/50021 I don't know how the feature-set of Epiphany+extensions compares to Galeon overall. There is a tabs-left extension, but no tabs-right extension as far as I can see. However, I just changed 5 words and the file names of the tabs-left extension and created a working tabs-right extension. Here is the code for the tabs-left extension: http://rmjokers.blogspot.com/2006/11/dont-let-tabs-control-you.html I think you can see just by looking at it how to make tabs-right. Cheers, Kelly Clowers Thanks for this, but I remember when Epiphany was developed...to be a 'simpler, kinder' browser. Unfortunately, every time I use it, I miss the ability to tweak it (again, I've used the same settings for Galeon for 5+ years...). Thanks for all the input. I'm trying to play with IceWeasel now to make it suit my needs, but I will look at Opera to play with it. Change is hard... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Sunday 30 December 2007, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 12/30/07 21:04, Paul Johnson wrote: > > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > >>> It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been > >>> my browser of choice for many moons. > >> > >> Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with > >> opera for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have > >> everything. > > > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally > > correct answer. > > Sure, if *your* morality is The One True Morality... You mean you don't believe that your morality is? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/30/07 21:04, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: >> >>> It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my >>> browser of choice for many moons. >> Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera >> for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. > > You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally correct > answer. Sure, if *your* morality is The One True Morality... - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA "Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile." Santa-bot -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFHeHJyS9HxQb37XmcRAofTAJidEHfPb+975sk7ogpZfy1183trAKCiOYh4 S17CXDZ1R9uFjdZbhIKeAg== =cGqg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
default wrote: On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my browser of choice for many moons. Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. Done a lot for open source though. Had a lot to do with the Skole Linux programme, amongst other things. In the process of kicking Microsoft into the middle of next week at the moment. I predict a favourable result for them in that scenario. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7143912.stm Regards, -- David Palmer Linux User - #352034 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Dec 30, 2007 7:11 AM, default <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:02:34 -0800, Angus Auld wrote: > > > It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my > > browser of choice for many moons. > > Same here. I've tried quite a few browsers, but none keep up with opera > for speed. Shame it's not Open Source, but you can't have everything. You could boycott it for being proprietary. That's the morally correct answer. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
--- Allan Wind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2007-12-29T10:50:18-0600, ZephyrQ wrote: > > Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using > Galeon for **years**, I > > miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put > tabs on the > > top/bottom/left. > > Did you try the Tab Control add-on? > > > Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a > Galeon thing, but side > > by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* > faster. > > Have you tried the FasterFox add-on? There are also > additional > about:config tuning steps that will increase the > perceived loading of > pages > (http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=53650 > may be a good > starting point for further web searches). > > > /Allan > You could give Swiftfox a try. It's billed as "optimized Mozilla Firefox build for Linux". http://getswiftfox.com/ It does seem pretty fast. Personally, I use Opera, and it's been my browser of choice for many moons. -- Angus ##Linux Laptop powered by Debian Linux## ###Reg. Linux User #278931### Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On Dec 29, 2007 8:50 AM, ZephyrQ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is > does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried > FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to reproduce: > > Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I > miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the > top/bottom/left. > > Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side > by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. Years ago, Galeon was forked to create Epiphany. A few years later, they recombined under the name Epiphany. http://www.linux.com/feature/50021 I don't know how the feature-set of Epiphany+extensions compares to Galeon overall. There is a tabs-left extension, but no tabs-right extension as far as I can see. However, I just changed 5 words and the file names of the tabs-left extension and created a working tabs-right extension. Here is the code for the tabs-left extension: http://rmjokers.blogspot.com/2006/11/dont-let-tabs-control-you.html I think you can see just by looking at it how to make tabs-right. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Galeon R.I.P?
On 2007-12-29T10:50:18-0600, ZephyrQ wrote: > Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I > miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the > top/bottom/left. Did you try the Tab Control add-on? > Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side > by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. Have you tried the FasterFox add-on? There are also additional about:config tuning steps that will increase the perceived loading of pages (http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=53650 may be a good starting point for further web searches). /Allan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Galeon R.I.P?
With all the news of Netscape 'fading off' into mozilla and its ilk, is does anyone know if Galeon is ever going to be updated? I've tried FireFox/etc. and there are a couple of things I've not be able to reproduce: Tabs...on the -right- hand side. After using Galeon for **years**, I miss this and the 'tab' plug-in only lets me put tabs on the top/bottom/left. Quickloading of pages. I don't know if this is a Galeon thing, but side by side with IceWeasel Galeon loads pages *much* faster. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: R.I.P
John, Did you by any chance defragment the win95 partition? We have a machine where doing this seems to upset the linux partition - best guess was that the win95 defragmenter had a record of the disk partitioning, but hadn't noticed that FIPS had shrunk the linux partition. We couldn't quite believe that it could be designed this way, but you never know - it would take too much time to track it down more precisely! If anyone else has had this occur it would be interesting. Kevin Dr Kevin Scott Philips Electronics UK Limited Patents and Trade Marks Department Tel: +44 1293 815281 Cross Oak Lane, Redhill Fax: +44 1293 815060 Surrey RH1 5HA, UK E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: R.I.P
> Well it looks like i may just have to accept microsmurfdom. :-). > My debian partition has gone and r--ted itself somehow. > I shutdown last time using shutdown -r 0 back into win95 then later tried > to access it and ouch. > > I recieved the following. > > Attempt to access beyond end of device 08:03:rw=0, want=1939953655, > limit=979965 EXT2-fs error (device08:03): ext2_find_entry: bad entry in > directory rec_len % 4 !=0-offset=8192, inode=3917106399, rec_len=31559 > name_len=17389. > Parallelising fsck version 1.10 24 april-97. A similar thing happened to me a while back at work. A 2.1 gig drive, the BIOS only detecting it as 540meg [no LBA support.. it was an old machine] hence Linux trying to access beyond 540meg. Perhaps one has nothing to do with the other, I don't recall the exact output of fsck other than it attempting to access beyond the end of it. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me remember what I did to rectify it. The machine + drive coexist quite happily now, so I guess all hope is not lost. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.. D. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: R.I.P
On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, john wrote: > I shutdown last time using shutdown -r 0 back into win95 then later tried > to access it and ouch. > > I recieved the following. > > Attempt to access beyond end of device 08:03:rw=0, want=1939953655, > limit=979965 EXT2-fs error (device08:03): ext2_find_entry: bad entry in > directory rec_len % 4 !=0-offset=8192, inode=3917106399, rec_len=31559 > name_len=17389. > Parallelising fsck version 1.10 24 april-97. > > Newby running Debian 1.3.1 , 2.1Gb UW IBM HDD from Adaptec 2940UW. > what happened ,this in fact happened once before but i assumed i screwed up > with a utility which supposedly gave acces to linux in win95. This is the > 2nd time in 2 months i kinda like the system, and am keen to > continue, but this is putting me off. It has been running great except for > these blowouts ??? It seems that debian was not really shutdown... maybe you pressed the power switch while it's still trying to shut itself? try the command "shutdown -r now" you could see visually that it has indeed shutdown because it has rebooted. I also have an adaptec 2940 UW, 2.0 Gb Seagate. regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Andre M. Varon Lasaltech Incorporated Technical Head Fax-Tel: (034)433-3520 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] web page: http://www.lasaltech.com/andre.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
R.I.P
Well it looks like i may just have to accept microsmurfdom. :-). My debian partition has gone and r--ted itself somehow. I shutdown last time using shutdown -r 0 back into win95 then later tried to access it and ouch. I recieved the following. Attempt to access beyond end of device 08:03:rw=0, want=1939953655, limit=979965 EXT2-fs error (device08:03): ext2_find_entry: bad entry in directory rec_len % 4 !=0-offset=8192, inode=3917106399, rec_len=31559 name_len=17389. Parallelising fsck version 1.10 24 april-97. Newby running Debian 1.3.1 , 2.1Gb UW IBM HDD from Adaptec 2940UW. what happened ,this in fact happened once before but i assumed i screwed up with a utility which supposedly gave acces to linux in win95. This is the 2nd time in 2 months i kinda like the system, and am keen to continue, but this is putting me off. It has been running great except for these blowouts ??? . Any advice apreciated. Contemplating my next move. Whether to try again or just stick with ughh. Thanx in advance. John Leget -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
