Re: RPM under Debian?
Mitch Blevins wrote:
Jernej Zajc wrote:
Call me a silly fool, but I cannot but wonder would it be possible
to make a pkg mgmt program (drpm :-)) that would install RPM
packages from their native format and put the installed files' and
dependencies info in the deb database?
Any dpkg developers willing to comment the idea?
#!/bin/bash
# drpm - program to install RPM and DEB packages from their
# native format and put the installed files and dependencies
# info in the deb database
# (also does Stampede packages)
#
# usage: drpm packagefile [packagefile] ..
for filename in $@; do
case ${filename} in
*.rpm|*.slp ) alien --install ${filename} ;;
*.deb ) dpkg --install ${filename} ;;
* ) echo Huh? ;;
esac
done
# end drpm
The above script does what you want (in a limited way).
The issue is not compatibility of the formats, but rather compatibility
of the contained programs and their file locations.
Example:
foo.deb - keeps config file in /etc/foo.conf
foo.rpm - keeps config file in /usr/some/other/location/foo.conf
bar.deb - depends on foo.deb
Has a post-install script that parses the information in foo.conf
and fails miserably to find the file from the converted RPM.
Requiring the maintainer of a Debian package to be compatible with not only
the relevant deb files, but also with any possible rpm (Official or not) that
may be floating out on the web would be intractable.
Debian is able to do some amazing things because the packages can depend
on other packages conforming to Debian policy and conventions.
Have you played with apache and its modules on Debian? Great stuff!
You can drop the mod-perl deb on top of the apache deb and it reconfigures
itself almost as if by magic.
Developers are now working on configuration tools and the ability to
administer multiple machines centrally. This would not be possible if
it had to support foreign packaging systems and their non-Debian-aware
install scripts. We should not hold back progress of our distribution
to accomodate less-advanced formats especially when Debian has the
most packages availble compared to any other distro.
-Mitch
Now I get the idea. It is virtually impossible for RPM support
to be implemented in a manner that would work w/o problems.
I was wondering about RPM since some people suggested that RPM
support could (will, some said) play a key role as a selection
criterion in competition among Linux distros. I wouldn't bother
about this, at least not much, but Eric S. Raymond said this, so
I looked at it again.
Jernej
Re: RPM under Debian?
Mitch Blevins wrote: In foo.debian-user, you wrote: Hello, this is Linux newbie and just-heard-about-Debian asking: is there support for RPM package management under Debian? The website doesn't meantion it, not even for the upcoming 2.1 release. Did I miss something? Debian provides different levels of rpm support. 1) The rpm program is available as a Debian package, and it can install/uninstall rpms. This method of use is not advised, however. RPM keeps a database of which packages are installed and uses this database to determine if the required dependencies for a given package are available. Since the RPM database cannot read the database of the native Debian package manager (dpkg) it will not work as desired. You can cause serious problems for your system by trying to use two different package managers actively. 2) You can use the 'alien' program, supplied as a debian package, to convert rpms to debs. Then you can use dpkg to install the package, and still have the advantage of a single database of installed packages. This works well for non-system-critical packages and packages without alot of complex dependencies... but you are just asking for trouble if you install (for instance) gnome as a converted alien package. Of course the best alternative is to install a native deb if available. -Mitch Call me a silly fool, but I cannot but wonder would it be possible to make a pkg mgmt program (drpm :-)) that would install RPM packages from their native format and put the installed files' and dependencies info in the deb database? Any dpkg developers willing to comment the idea? Jernej
Re: RPM under Debian?
Jerney wrote: Call me a silly fool, but I cannot but wonder would it be possible to make a pkg mgmt program (drpm :-)) that would install RPM packages from their native format and put the installed files' and dependencies info in the deb database? Any dpkg developers willing to comment the idea? I am no dpkg developper, but I'll bite anyway. The program exists and is not called drpm, but alien. The problems are not in reading the package and it's dependency information, the problem is in the organisation of the programs into packages. For example (just an example, I don't know if it is true), RedHat could have a package x11-clients_3.3.2.rpm, and debian a package xbase_3.2-1.deb. Say both contain `xterm'. Now if a third package needs `xterm', it will depend on x11-clients in RedHat, and on xbase in debian. If this is an rpm package, alien will spot that it depends on x11-clients, but this information is near useless, since this package does not exist in debian. Something else that can go wrong is file placement. One distibution might put xterm in /usr/bin, another one could choose /opt/x11/bin. Programs that depend on a certain full pathname can break because of this. Then there may be differences in configuration files. Note that the problems I described are not due to differences in the package format at all. They can arise between Caldera and RedHat as well, although they both use rpm. The fact that there is only one distribution currently using .debs actually protects you from this kind of trouble. HTH, Eric Meijer -- E.L. Meijer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) | tel. office +31 40 2472189 Eindhoven Univ. of Technology | tel. lab. +31 40 2475032 Lab. for Catalysis and Inorg. Chem. (TAK) | tel. fax+31 40 2455054
Re: RPM under Debian?
Jernej Zajc wrote:
Mitch Blevins wrote:
[snip]
Debian provides different levels of rpm support.
1) The rpm program is available as a Debian package, and it can
install/uninstall rpms. This method of use is not advised,
however. RPM keeps a database of which packages are installed
and uses this database to determine if the required dependencies
for a given package are available. Since the RPM database
cannot read the database of the native Debian package manager (dpkg)
it will not work as desired. You can cause serious problems for
your system by trying to use two different package managers
actively.
2) You can use the 'alien' program, supplied as a debian package,
to convert rpms to debs. Then you can use dpkg to install the
package, and still have the advantage of a single database of
installed packages.
This works well for non-system-critical packages and packages
without alot of complex dependencies... but you are just asking
for trouble if you install (for instance) gnome as a converted
alien package.
Of course the best alternative is to install a native deb if
available.
-Mitch
Call me a silly fool, but I cannot but wonder would it be possible
to make a pkg mgmt program (drpm :-)) that would install RPM
packages from their native format and put the installed files' and
dependencies info in the deb database?
Any dpkg developers willing to comment the idea?
#!/bin/bash
# drpm - program to install RPM and DEB packages from their
# native format and put the installed files and dependencies
# info in the deb database
# (also does Stampede packages)
#
# usage: drpm packagefile [packagefile] ..
for filename in $@; do
case ${filename} in
*.rpm|*.slp ) alien --install ${filename} ;;
*.deb ) dpkg --install ${filename} ;;
* ) echo Huh? ;;
esac
done
# end drpm
The above script does what you want (in a limited way).
The issue is not compatibility of the formats, but rather compatibility
of the contained programs and their file locations.
Example:
foo.deb - keeps config file in /etc/foo.conf
foo.rpm - keeps config file in /usr/some/other/location/foo.conf
bar.deb - depends on foo.deb
Has a post-install script that parses the information in foo.conf
and fails miserably to find the file from the converted RPM.
Requiring the maintainer of a Debian package to be compatible with not only
the relevant deb files, but also with any possible rpm (Official or not) that
may be floating out on the web would be intractable.
Debian is able to do some amazing things because the packages can depend
on other packages conforming to Debian policy and conventions.
Have you played with apache and its modules on Debian? Great stuff!
You can drop the mod-perl deb on top of the apache deb and it reconfigures
itself almost as if by magic.
Developers are now working on configuration tools and the ability to
administer multiple machines centrally. This would not be possible if
it had to support foreign packaging systems and their non-Debian-aware
install scripts. We should not hold back progress of our distribution
to accomodate less-advanced formats especially when Debian has the
most packages availble compared to any other distro.
-Mitch
RPM under Debian?
Hello, this is Linux newbie and just-heard-about-Debian asking: is there support for RPM package management under Debian? The website doesn't meantion it, not even for the upcoming 2.1 release. Did I miss something? Thanx, Jernej
Re: RPM under Debian?
In foo.debian-user, you wrote: Hello, this is Linux newbie and just-heard-about-Debian asking: is there support for RPM package management under Debian? The website doesn't meantion it, not even for the upcoming 2.1 release. Did I miss something? Debian provides different levels of rpm support. 1) The rpm program is available as a Debian package, and it can install/uninstall rpms. This method of use is not advised, however. RPM keeps a database of which packages are installed and uses this database to determine if the required dependencies for a given package are available. Since the RPM database cannot read the database of the native Debian package manager (dpkg) it will not work as desired. You can cause serious problems for your system by trying to use two different package managers actively. 2) You can use the 'alien' program, supplied as a debian package, to convert rpms to debs. Then you can use dpkg to install the package, and still have the advantage of a single database of installed packages. This works well for non-system-critical packages and packages without alot of complex dependencies... but you are just asking for trouble if you install (for instance) gnome as a converted alien package. Of course the best alternative is to install a native deb if available. -Mitch
Re: RPM under Debian?
Jernej Zajc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: this is Linux newbie and just-heard-about-Debian asking: is there support for RPM package management under Debian? The website doesn't meantion it, not even for the upcoming 2.1 release. Did I miss something? In addition to the answer you've already got: I have a feeling that your question might be caused by articles in magazines that sometimes recommend Redhat or another RPM-based distributions because of the ease-of-use compared to less sophisticated installation systems. In that case you should know that Debian's native packaging system, .deb, is at least as sophisticated as RPM and will give you the same advantages. In fact we find deb to be a technically superior tool. -- Henning Makholm http://www.diku.dk/students/makholm
