Re: Code of conduct reminder.
On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 20:43:46 + Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 05:52:20PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:18:18AM -0400, David Peacock wrote: > > > I'm seeing a shocking and disappointing amount of disrespect and > > > vulgarity of late from several parties. If there is no active > > > moderation possible, it would be nice to see us moderate > > > ourselves into civility, lest this list degenerate into something > > > that embarrasses the entire Debian project. > > > > Since "shocking", "disrespect" and "vulgarity" are pretty subjective > > measures (they are still very legitimate, though), it would be nice > > and constructive if you gave people the chance to understand what > > you are taking issue with. > > I don't think that will actually be productive but if anyone is > going to do that I would strongly suggest they do so off-list with > the authors of the posts they take issue with. I think that calling > people out on-list is likely to devolve into a huge flame war. > > The reason why I don't think it will be productive is that posters > tend to feel they are justified in what they post, and people > who disagree with them are "just an opinion, man". What may go over > better is a gentle off-list comment by someone with actual authority > within Debian. A problem with that being that there isn't really any > authority to moderate on this mailing list by anyone, except for in > the most extreme of circumstances. > > Then again, I have had a DD take me to task off-list recently > telling me that me opening an email with "Hi," was passive > aggressive and that the rest of the content of my email was not > worth sending. Yet from my perspective the original poster and I had > had a reasonably productive thread on-list, so, you know, not all > persons of authority are cut out for this kind of thing either! I have to agree here. If someone starts psychoanalyzing me by way of correction, I'm switching off. "Passive-aggressive" is pure psychobabble. > > I think Debian's community team do a pretty good job when they do > actually get involved, I just wish they could get involved more. > For what it's worth, in the 90s I co-founded my local Linux Users Group. For about a decade, I was treasurer, president, list admin and moderator. I rarely had to ban someone from the list. I had similar list rules to Debian, and occasionally I stepped in to warn miscreants. But mostly, list members curtailed bad behavior. I believe they did this because this was *their* group and *their* list. And because they didn't want to see an otherwise reasonable contributor banned for having a bad day, or being easily antagonized by another idiot. The difference is that in my group, there were a total of 400, and many of them knew each other from meetings. I'm guessing DU has quite a few more. The more people, the harder it is to have a cohesive group. And there's no one here to ban them when they get out of hand (or is there?). Just my two cents worth. Paul -- Paul M. Foster Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:51 PM Andy Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 06:52:57PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > Could we please finish the package managers thread at this point? > > Do you include in that the sub-thread of that where the OP is > (still) attempting to get Synaptic to work, and also the sub-threads > this generates as the OP breaks their system in different ways in > the process (e.g. "I set a root password and now can't log in as any > other user")? > > >From my point of view that thread was mostly a waste of a lot of > people's time but it seems like possibly there is a bug somewhere, > so it would be really good to salvage at least a bug report out of > it. I'm not sure we can actually get there though. ++ And it's still going on, eleven after the pleas. I'm ready to start plonk'in some heads... Jeff
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
Hello, On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 06:52:57PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > Could we please finish the package managers thread at this point? Do you include in that the sub-thread of that where the OP is (still) attempting to get Synaptic to work, and also the sub-threads this generates as the OP breaks their system in different ways in the process (e.g. "I set a root password and now can't log in as any other user")? >From my point of view that thread was mostly a waste of a lot of people's time but it seems like possibly there is a bug somewhere, so it would be really good to salvage at least a bug report out of it. I'm not sure we can actually get there though. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
Hello, On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 05:52:20PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:18:18AM -0400, David Peacock wrote: > > I'm seeing a shocking and disappointing amount of disrespect and vulgarity > > of late from several parties. If there is no active moderation possible, > > it would be nice to see us moderate ourselves into civility, lest this list > > degenerate into something that embarrasses the entire Debian project. > > Since "shocking", "disrespect" and "vulgarity" are pretty subjective > measures (they are still very legitimate, though), it would be nice > and constructive if you gave people the chance to understand what you > are taking issue with. I don't think that will actually be productive but if anyone is going to do that I would strongly suggest they do so off-list with the authors of the posts they take issue with. I think that calling people out on-list is likely to devolve into a huge flame war. The reason why I don't think it will be productive is that posters tend to feel they are justified in what they post, and people who disagree with them are "just an opinion, man". What may go over better is a gentle off-list comment by someone with actual authority within Debian. A problem with that being that there isn't really any authority to moderate on this mailing list by anyone, except for in the most extreme of circumstances. Then again, I have had a DD take me to task off-list recently telling me that me opening an email with "Hi," was passive aggressive and that the rest of the content of my email was not worth sending. Yet from my perspective the original poster and I had had a reasonably productive thread on-list, so, you know, not all persons of authority are cut out for this kind of thing either! I think Debian's community team do a pretty good job when they do actually get involved, I just wish they could get involved more. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:18:18AM -0400, David Peacock wrote: > Hi folks, > > Just a friendly reminder of the code of conduct that we agree to be bound > by when we participate in this list, pasted below for convenience, but > originally from here [0]. > As a semi-moderator of the list and the person that posts the FAQ here each month - a request from me. Could we please finish the package managers thread at this point? This is another long thread that is, essentially, going nowhere. Whatever the merits of any of the arguments in the thread about the utility or otherwise of various package management front ends, those have long since been lost and the thread is now the same claims and counter claims. > I'm seeing a shocking and disappointing amount of disrespect and vulgarity > of late from several parties. If there is no active moderation possible, > it would be nice to see us moderate ourselves into civility, lest this list > degenerate into something that embarrasses the entire Debian project. > As a member of the Community Team: Debian is supposed to be a welcoming place. The request is that discussions should be respectful, constructive and that everyone should engage in good faith. Debian user is often people's first encounter with a Debian mailing list. The standard slips sometimes but we should endeavour to maintain this as far as we can: regulars on the list should be aware of what is appropriate - and that doesn't include sniping at people. I would appreciate it if some folk would pause and consider whether a two or three way argument about the merits of how an individual conducts themselves on the list actually merits continued reply and counter-reply to the extent that this is happening. Breathe, pause from the keyboard and consider whether instant new replies are helpful, please. > David > With every good wish, Andy Cater [For the Debian Community Team] > Code of conduct > When using the Debian mailing lists, please follow the Debian Code of > Conduct in addition to these rules: > > The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. > Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not > welcome. > Do not send spam; see the advertising policy below. > Send all of your e-mails in English. Only use other languages on mailing > lists where that is explicitly allowed (e.g. French on debian-user-french). > Make sure that you are using the proper list. In particular, don't send > user-related questions to developer-related mailing lists. > Wrap your lines at 80 characters or less for ordinary discussion. Lines > longer than 80 characters are acceptable for computer-generated output > (e.g., ls -l). > Do not send automated out-of-office or vacation messages. > Do not send test messages to determine whether your mail client is working. > Do not send subscription or unsubscription requests to the list address > itself; use the respective -request address instead. > Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead. > Avoid sending large attachments. > Do not quote messages that were sent to you by other people in private > mail, unless agreed beforehand. > When replying to messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy > (CC) to the original poster unless they explicitly request to be copied. > If you want to complain to someone who sent you a carbon copy when you did > not ask for it, do it privately. > If you send messages to lists to which you are not subscribed, always note > that fact in the body of your message. > Do not use foul language; besides, some people receive the lists via packet > radio, where swearing is illegal. > Try not to flame; it is not polite. > Use common sense all the time. > > [0] https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
On 21 Jun 2023 17:52, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: Since "shocking", "disrespect" and "vulgarity" are pretty subjective measures (they are still very legitimate, though), it would be nice and constructive if you gave people the chance to understand what you are taking issue with. Otherwise, we have no way to try to adjust our behaviour. I think it's concerning the thread "How to stop systemd or whatever does,to always tries to check and fix disk errors".
Re: Code of conduct reminder.
On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 10:18:18AM -0400, David Peacock wrote: > Hi folks, > > Just a friendly reminder of the code of conduct that we agree to be bound > by when we participate in this list, pasted below for convenience, but > originally from here [0]. No need to quote the thing in full. It gets posted here regularly. > I'm seeing a shocking and disappointing amount of disrespect and vulgarity > of late from several parties. If there is no active moderation possible, > it would be nice to see us moderate ourselves into civility, lest this list > degenerate into something that embarrasses the entire Debian project. Since "shocking", "disrespect" and "vulgarity" are pretty subjective measures (they are still very legitimate, though), it would be nice and constructive if you gave people the chance to understand what you are taking issue with. Otherwise, we have no way to try to adjust our behaviour. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?]
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 09:50:45AM -0800, RP wrote: > > > This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. By that, I presume you are referring to "The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome" from the mailing list code of conduct. I agree that this thread has become rather off-topic for this list. > If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and posters". It does say that. However, his choice of quoting sends a different message. Hence my request for additional information about the specific offense that prompted the warning. > This is for everyone. > There are ways to send messages intended "for everyone" and Andrew's message seems (unintentionally, I assume) to single out particular invidual in a somewhat threatning way. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?]
On 2022-01-24 12:50, RP wrote: > On 1/24/22 09:33, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 04:55:25PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 12:44:52PM +0100, deloptes wrote: max wrote: > For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian > developers voted not to censure him. > https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a > double > standard, but whatever. If you engage in such discussion, you are ready to fail. There is no force in this universe to tell me not to use the pronouns he and she based on biological sex. The opposite is complete madness: I recommend listening to Jordan Peterson on this subject. I doubt RMS is authority in this field. He has opinion and this is it - he and not only he - no one has the authority to tell you or me how to speak. Language is to help us understand each other. Obviously someone does not want to admit to this basic rule and wants us to roll over into the Overtone window. It is absolutely unnecessary discussion. J. Peterson refuses to accept, I refuse and many others. It is perfectly OK. I have the same rights as you do. Period. >>> Can I please remind readers and posters: >>> >>> Communication on this list, on IRC and on other Debian media are bound >>> by the Debian mailing list code of conduct, the Debian IRC code of >>> conduct >>> and, above all, by the Debian Code of Conduct. >>> >>> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct >>> https://www.debian.org/support#irc >>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines >>> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct >>> >>> Action can and will be taken by listmasters if appropriate. >>> Please also report issues with conduct to the Community Team >>> >>> With thanks for your attention, >>> >>> Andrew Cater >>> [For and on behalf of the Debian Community Team] >>> >> Andrew, >> >> I am very concerned by your message and the signal it seems to be >> communicating. The links you provided do not seem to describe any sort >> of boundary or misbehavior which appears to be at issue in deloptes's >> message. The most egregious thing seems to be the continuation of an >> off-topic thread. There many contributors to that particular problem in >> this case in addition to delpotes. >> >> Could you perhaps describe precisely what offense was caused or what >> boundary was skirted in this instance? >> >> In the future, messages such as yours would appear less menacing and >> more constructive with this additional bit of information added. >> >> Regards, >> >> -Roberto >> > This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. > If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and > posters". This is for everyone. > Copy of CoC : 1 - The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome. 2 - Do not use foul language; besides, some people receive the lists via packet radio, where swearing is illegal. 3 - Try not to flame; it is not polite. -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?]
On 1/24/22 09:33, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 04:55:25PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 12:44:52PM +0100, deloptes wrote: max wrote: For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian developers voted not to censure him. https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a double standard, but whatever. If you engage in such discussion, you are ready to fail. There is no force in this universe to tell me not to use the pronouns he and she based on biological sex. The opposite is complete madness: I recommend listening to Jordan Peterson on this subject. I doubt RMS is authority in this field. He has opinion and this is it - he and not only he - no one has the authority to tell you or me how to speak. Language is to help us understand each other. Obviously someone does not want to admit to this basic rule and wants us to roll over into the Overtone window. It is absolutely unnecessary discussion. J. Peterson refuses to accept, I refuse and many others. It is perfectly OK. I have the same rights as you do. Period. Can I please remind readers and posters: Communication on this list, on IRC and on other Debian media are bound by the Debian mailing list code of conduct, the Debian IRC code of conduct and, above all, by the Debian Code of Conduct. https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/support#irc https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Action can and will be taken by listmasters if appropriate. Please also report issues with conduct to the Community Team With thanks for your attention, Andrew Cater [For and on behalf of the Debian Community Team] Andrew, I am very concerned by your message and the signal it seems to be communicating. The links you provided do not seem to describe any sort of boundary or misbehavior which appears to be at issue in deloptes's message. The most egregious thing seems to be the continuation of an off-topic thread. There many contributors to that particular problem in this case in addition to delpotes. Could you perhaps describe precisely what offense was caused or what boundary was skirted in this instance? In the future, messages such as yours would appear less menacing and more constructive with this additional bit of information added. Regards, -Roberto This whole thread has turned into a violation of the very first rule. If you read Andrew's post, the first line says to "readers and posters". This is for everyone.
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?]
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 04:55:25PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 12:44:52PM +0100, deloptes wrote: > > max wrote: > > > > > For comparison, RMS is publicly against singular "they", and Debian > > > developers voted not to censure him. > > > https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Seems like a double > > > standard, but whatever. > > > > If you engage in such discussion, you are ready to fail. There is no force > > in this universe to tell me not to use the pronouns he and she based on > > biological sex. > > The opposite is complete madness: I recommend listening to Jordan Peterson > > on this subject. > > I doubt RMS is authority in this field. He has opinion and this is it - he > > and not only he - no one has the authority to tell you or me how to speak. > > Language is to help us understand each other. Obviously someone does not > > want to admit to this basic rule and wants us to roll over into the > > Overtone window. It is absolutely unnecessary discussion. J. Peterson > > refuses to accept, I refuse and many others. It is perfectly OK. I have the > > same rights as you do. Period. > > > > Can I please remind readers and posters: > > Communication on this list, on IRC and on other Debian media are bound > by the Debian mailing list code of conduct, the Debian IRC code of conduct > and, above all, by the Debian Code of Conduct. > > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct > https://www.debian.org/support#irc > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIRCChannelGuidelines > https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct > > Action can and will be taken by listmasters if appropriate. > Please also report issues with conduct to the Community Team > > With thanks for your attention, > > Andrew Cater > [For and on behalf of the Debian Community Team] > Andrew, I am very concerned by your message and the signal it seems to be communicating. The links you provided do not seem to describe any sort of boundary or misbehavior which appears to be at issue in deloptes's message. The most egregious thing seems to be the continuation of an off-topic thread. There many contributors to that particular problem in this case in addition to delpotes. Could you perhaps describe precisely what offense was caused or what boundary was skirted in this instance? In the future, messages such as yours would appear less menacing and more constructive with this additional bit of information added. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
