Re: Debian is the best!
On 06/21/13 01:15, Stephen Powell wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:09:27 -0400 (EDT), Dirk wrote: how does grub boot a kernel better than lilo? this is all [expletive deleted]... the linux community is now full of people who speak like some marketing shills... freedesktop reinvents windows badly.. and now people are talking themselves into that they need features /before/ the OS kernel has been loaded... so much [expletive deleted] fail... if i was younger and still more caring it would really hurt to see this [expletive deleted]... we live in the age of aggressive reputation management now... forums and mailing lists have become cancers.. [expletive deleted] you all I understand your frustration. However, the use of foul language on Debian mailing lists is prohibited. Please refrain from using it. See http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct i have seen enough If you have had it with grub2 and wish to switch back to lilo, see my lilo web page at http://users.wowway.com/~zlinuxman/lilo.htm thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c4401b.2000...@pwnoogle.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On 06/18/2013 11:35 AM, Gary Dale wrote: On 18/06/13 10:35 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: On 06/18/2013 05:03 PM, Dirk wrote: you are clearly talking out of your ass... a boot loader doesn't need features other than loading the kernel... what crucial work do you do with the features of grub? spreadsheets? presentations? project managing? or do you play it like a text adventure figuring out what the grub rescue console actually does? *primitive is the best thing about lilo*... if you don't realize that then you don't care if a part as stupid as the boot loader doesn't work... because you have alternatives to linux.. Having just involuntarily bumped into the grub rescue console, I can say that LILO was much easier to work with and to figure out. In the case of grub I eventually had to give up and nuke the MBR from the rescue mode of the installation CD. grub is complex, grub2 more so. Regards, /Lars When GRUB came out, it's best feature was that you didn't need to update it every time you installed a new kernel - something that LILO required. With GRUB2, we're back to needing to update the boot loader when the kernel changes. This is not true at all. No need to reinstall GRUB at any point and in many distributions who simply install a kernel under a single name (In arch, for example, kernel image filenames aren't versioned. So upgrading a kernel all you have to do is reboot to use the new kernel.), the configuration needs no updating either. It's only on systems like DEBIAN which does things in package management in overly verbose and complicated ways that GRUB has to be reconfigured just to use a new kernel. In this case it's less on GRUB and how the distribution installs its kernel and initramfs images. Yes, I know that Debian does this so you can fall back on an older kernel if you need, but that's a separate issue. I'm just pointing out the downside of that is GRUB will have to be informed every time the kernel is upgraded. The other features you need in a boot loader is that it works on everything, and you need it to fail gracefully into a mode where you can fix the problems that are preventing the system from booting. GRUB 2 does this... but its recovery console is next to unusable. It's better to use a LiveCD or something, chroot onto your installed system, and reinstall/reconfigure grub. Last I heard LILO didn't even have much in the way of recovery tools. Unfortunately, there is also now the UEFI problem to consider. Now boot loaders have to contend with security checks enforced by the hardware. Thanks to Microsoft's Windows 8 sticker standard SecureBoot can be turned off on all Windows8-based x86 systems that have it. If you don't want to contend with it, then turn it off. Bootloaders don't have to contend with security at all unless you don't know how to turn off SecureBoot. Primitive no longer cuts it. What you need is a boot loader that can handle all the crap that gets thrown at it. The boot loader that does it best wins. On UEFI systems, use rEFInd (Even better: Use rEFInd to load the kernel directly to boot itself.). On MBR systems GRUB still does it better than LILO. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c30c4f.8060...@marupa.net
Re: Debian is the best!
Primitive no longer cuts it. What you need is a boot loader that can handle all the crap that gets thrown at it. The boot loader that does it best wins. On UEFI systems, use rEFInd (Even better: Use rEFInd to load the kernel directly to boot itself.). On MBR systems GRUB still does it better than LILO. how does grub boot a kernel better than lilo? this is all bullshit... the linux community is now full of people who speak like some marketing shills... freedesktop reinvents windows badly.. and now people are talking themselves into that they need features /before/ the OS kernel has been loaded... so much fucking fail... if i was younger and still more caring it would really hurt to see this shit... we live in the age of aggressive reputation management now... forums and mailing lists have become cancers.. fuck you all Dirk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c31b27.8040...@pwnoogle.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 17:09 +0200, Dirk wrote: fuck you all Hi Dirk, why f*!#in' us all? FWIW some, especially advanced Linux users claim that only Syslinux is a sane bootloader and btw. nobody needs to use GRUB with the update thingy or even by the used distro. GRUB legacy, Lilo and tons of others are still available. Regarding to upstream a lot of people are disgruntled. For the distro I prefer at the moment, not Debian, I'm missing the independence from upstream provided by Debian. If Debian isn't independent enough from upstream for your taste, contribute by fixing what you don't like from upstream. You hardly want find an alternative to Linux, if you need to drop it, assumed you're that annoyed. For many tasks FreeBSD is a very good alternative, but not for all purposes. I can't use it for audio, Linux already is hard to use for media productions. OTOH FreeBSD soon or later will reach the state of Linux, with all it's pleasures, but also with all the steps in a direction, that some of us don't like. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1371744688.644.28.camel@archlinux
Re: Debian is the best!
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:06:07 -0500 Conrad Nelson y...@marupa.net wrote: GRUB 2 does this... but its recovery console is next to unusable. It's better to use a LiveCD or something, chroot onto your installed system, and reinstall/reconfigure grub. Last I heard LILO didn't even have much in the way of recovery tools. In the heyday of LILO, a tomsrtbt floppy was all you needed. It used to take me ten minutes to fix a LILO problem, and eight minutes of that was getting my Unix For Dummies book down and re-learning a few vi commands. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130621000228.77490...@jretrading.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:09:27 -0400 (EDT), Dirk wrote: how does grub boot a kernel better than lilo? this is all [expletive deleted]... the linux community is now full of people who speak like some marketing shills... freedesktop reinvents windows badly.. and now people are talking themselves into that they need features /before/ the OS kernel has been loaded... so much [expletive deleted] fail... if i was younger and still more caring it would really hurt to see this [expletive deleted]... we live in the age of aggressive reputation management now... forums and mailing lists have become cancers.. [expletive deleted] you all I understand your frustration. However, the use of foul language on Debian mailing lists is prohibited. Please refrain from using it. See http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct If you have had it with grub2 and wish to switch back to lilo, see my lilo web page at http://users.wowway.com/~zlinuxman/lilo.htm -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1992172927.1807993.1371770150034.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:35:23PM -0400, Gary Dale wrote: On 18/06/13 10:35 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: On 06/18/2013 05:03 PM, Dirk wrote: you are clearly talking out of your ass... a boot loader doesn't need features other than loading the kernel... what crucial work do you do with the features of grub? spreadsheets? presentations? project managing? or do you play it like a text adventure figuring out what the grub rescue console actually does? *primitive is the best thing about lilo*... if you don't realize that then you don't care if a part as stupid as the boot loader doesn't work... because you have alternatives to linux.. Having just involuntarily bumped into the grub rescue console, I can say that LILO was much easier to work with and to figure out. In the case of grub I eventually had to give up and nuke the MBR from the rescue mode of the installation CD. grub is complex, grub2 more so. Regards, /Lars When GRUB came out, it's best feature was that you didn't need to update it every time you installed a new kernel - something that LILO required. With GRUB2, we're back to needing to update the boot loader when the kernel changes. Actually, you don't NEED to update GRUB2 when the kernel changes. If you use the /vmlinuz and /vmlinuz.old symlinks you can still have a pair of menu entries that point to them. However, doing so loses some user-friendliness (i.e. the ability to see what kernel you're booting. It could be argued, though, that many users neither care nor know whether they want to boot Debian with Linux 3.8.0 or Debian with Linux 3.8.0. They want Debian 7.0, with possibly Debian 7.0, fallback kernel). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian is the best!
On Tuesday 18 June 2013 00:01:49 Dirk wrote: Grub 2.00 (unstable) failed me the 2nd time now and resulted in a unuseable system showing only the grub rescue console that does *nothing* Grub 2.00 does everything now and nothing right... not even load a kernel.. That is shit. So... how can we help? Without any more details, we are left in suspense and can only guess... i updated from the old unstable to the new unstable during the last stable release... everything went smooth except the grub 2.00 update... after reboot it ended up showing the worthless grub rescue console... so i downgraded grub to 1.99 from stable... yesterday i tried again with the same results... i haven't tried installing unstable from scratch yet... but i guess it will work then so it would be pointless to do that... it is bad when linux stops working before the kernel was even loaded... so i advice to ditch grub in favor of lilo since it does nothing much except what it is supposed to do... it doesn't even troll users with a worthless rescue console that doesn't rescue shit... The *only* situation I would consider installing lilo instead of grub is when building an embedded system. lilo is too primitive and too hard to configure, grub has so many features! I love it! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201306182023.06102.mikl...@gmail.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:01:49 +0200 Dirk noi...@pwnoogle.com wrote: i updated from the old unstable to the new unstable during the last stable release... everything went smooth except the grub 2.00 update... after reboot it ended up showing the worthless grub rescue console... Here's your first problem: there is no old or new unstable. There is just unstable, enduring through the ages... OK, it's a different unstable every day, but there is no concept of 'version'. It just gets continuously updated. If you have updated it for the first time in many months, yes, there is a chance of failure, as such a large amount of software has changed. If you make use of unstable, you need to update it frequently. I do it nearly every day on my main workstation, but that isn't really necessary. There is no carefully researched and planned one-step upgrade as there is between consecutive stable versions, as a new plan of this kind would have to be created almost hourly. You just take pot luck and fix it if it breaks. You're pioneering the next stable upgrade, and somebody has to be the first to fall down the hidden potholes. As to grub... yes, I know. Nearly all the (Linux) software trouble I had over the course of about five years was due to grub. It has been OK for a couple of years now, and when the grub changes occur in unstable, they do seem to work. The bottom line is that if you run unstable, you take what it throws at you. There is no Windows equivalent: Microsoft wouldn't dare, they don't release anything earlier than their equivalent of frozen testing, and they expect their beta testers to do some work in exchange for their free OS. These beta testers, of course, have no access to the source code, and they make up only a very tiny fraction of Windows users. A much higher percentage of Debian users run testing and/or unstable. If you don't like the heat, there is testing, or even stable if you don't want to do any development work at all. Even testing is a little hairy at the moment, I believe. -- Joe thanks for shining your wisdom on me... i /am/ updating unstable at least twice a week for many years now and the problem occured contemporarily with the last release of stable... now your nitpicking over the old/new aside... your email didn't help at all... please spare me.. i already have the taste of vomit in my mouth.. also did i google for the problem and realized that i am not alone with it... so i stop caring... it /will/ be fixed... Dirk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c066e2.9020...@pwnoogle.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On Tuesday 18 June 2013 00:01:49 Dirk wrote: Grub 2.00 (unstable) failed me the 2nd time now and resulted in a unuseable system showing only the grub rescue console that does *nothing* Grub 2.00 does everything now and nothing right... not even load a kernel.. That is shit. So... how can we help? Without any more details, we are left in suspense and can only guess... i updated from the old unstable to the new unstable during the last stable release... everything went smooth except the grub 2.00 update... after reboot it ended up showing the worthless grub rescue console... so i downgraded grub to 1.99 from stable... yesterday i tried again with the same results... i haven't tried installing unstable from scratch yet... but i guess it will work then so it would be pointless to do that... it is bad when linux stops working before the kernel was even loaded... so i advice to ditch grub in favor of lilo since it does nothing much except what it is supposed to do... it doesn't even troll users with a worthless rescue console that doesn't rescue shit... The *only* situation I would consider installing lilo instead of grub is when building an embedded system. lilo is too primitive and too hard to configure, grub has so many features! I love it! you are clearly talking out of your ass... a boot loader doesn't need features other than loading the kernel... what crucial work do you do with the features of grub? spreadsheets? presentations? project managing? or do you play it like a text adventure figuring out what the grub rescue console actually does? *primitive is the best thing about lilo*... if you don't realize that then you don't care if a part as stupid as the boot loader doesn't work... because you have alternatives to linux.. Dirk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c068b3.5070...@pwnoogle.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On 06/18/2013 05:03 PM, Dirk wrote: you are clearly talking out of your ass... a boot loader doesn't need features other than loading the kernel... what crucial work do you do with the features of grub? spreadsheets? presentations? project managing? or do you play it like a text adventure figuring out what the grub rescue console actually does? *primitive is the best thing about lilo*... if you don't realize that then you don't care if a part as stupid as the boot loader doesn't work... because you have alternatives to linux.. Having just involuntarily bumped into the grub rescue console, I can say that LILO was much easier to work with and to figure out. In the case of grub I eventually had to give up and nuke the MBR from the rescue mode of the installation CD. grub is complex, grub2 more so. Regards, /Lars -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c07032.3090...@gmail.com
Re: Debian is the best!
On 18/06/13 10:35 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: On 06/18/2013 05:03 PM, Dirk wrote: you are clearly talking out of your ass... a boot loader doesn't need features other than loading the kernel... what crucial work do you do with the features of grub? spreadsheets? presentations? project managing? or do you play it like a text adventure figuring out what the grub rescue console actually does? *primitive is the best thing about lilo*... if you don't realize that then you don't care if a part as stupid as the boot loader doesn't work... because you have alternatives to linux.. Having just involuntarily bumped into the grub rescue console, I can say that LILO was much easier to work with and to figure out. In the case of grub I eventually had to give up and nuke the MBR from the rescue mode of the installation CD. grub is complex, grub2 more so. Regards, /Lars When GRUB came out, it's best feature was that you didn't need to update it every time you installed a new kernel - something that LILO required. With GRUB2, we're back to needing to update the boot loader when the kernel changes. The other features you need in a boot loader is that it works on everything, and you need it to fail gracefully into a mode where you can fix the problems that are preventing the system from booting. Unfortunately, there is also now the UEFI problem to consider. Now boot loaders have to contend with security checks enforced by the hardware. Primitive no longer cuts it. What you need is a boot loader that can handle all the crap that gets thrown at it. The boot loader that does it best wins. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51c08c4b.7050...@rogers.com
Re: Debian is the best!
Hi On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 03:58:30PM +0100, Dirk wrote: Hello, my beloved Microsoft reputation management shills \:D/ How is freedesktop reinventing Windows badly today? I know, right? :D ? Sounds like you do. Grub 2.00 (unstable) failed me the 2nd time now and resulted in a unuseable system showing only the grub rescue console that does *nothing* Grub 2.00 does everything now and nothing right... not even load a kernel.. That is shit. So... how can we help? Without any more details, we are left in suspense and can only guess... -- Karl E. Jorgensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130617152058.GA15076@hawking
Re: Debian is the best!
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:01:49 +0200 Dirk noi...@pwnoogle.com wrote: i updated from the old unstable to the new unstable during the last stable release... everything went smooth except the grub 2.00 update... after reboot it ended up showing the worthless grub rescue console... Here's your first problem: there is no old or new unstable. There is just unstable, enduring through the ages... OK, it's a different unstable every day, but there is no concept of 'version'. It just gets continuously updated. If you have updated it for the first time in many months, yes, there is a chance of failure, as such a large amount of software has changed. If you make use of unstable, you need to update it frequently. I do it nearly every day on my main workstation, but that isn't really necessary. There is no carefully researched and planned one-step upgrade as there is between consecutive stable versions, as a new plan of this kind would have to be created almost hourly. You just take pot luck and fix it if it breaks. You're pioneering the next stable upgrade, and somebody has to be the first to fall down the hidden potholes. As to grub... yes, I know. Nearly all the (Linux) software trouble I had over the course of about five years was due to grub. It has been OK for a couple of years now, and when the grub changes occur in unstable, they do seem to work. The bottom line is that if you run unstable, you take what it throws at you. There is no Windows equivalent: Microsoft wouldn't dare, they don't release anything earlier than their equivalent of frozen testing, and they expect their beta testers to do some work in exchange for their free OS. These beta testers, of course, have no access to the source code, and they make up only a very tiny fraction of Windows users. A much higher percentage of Debian users run testing and/or unstable. If you don't like the heat, there is testing, or even stable if you don't want to do any development work at all. Even testing is a little hairy at the moment, I believe. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130617192734.0a7ff...@jretrading.com
Re: Debian is The Best
http://bianca.cc.ankara.edu.tr/penguin22.swf?msg=Halil+is+the+best deyince halil is the best oluyor :))) On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 11:48:54AM +0200, Serdar Aytekin wrote: http://bianca.cc.ankara.edu.tr/linux.html Cok hos mutlaka izleyin, izlettirin :) Serdar Aytekin
Re: Debian GNU/Linux: Best of the Web! (fwd)
On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, James A.Treacy wrote: For those few of you who don't read http://slashdot.org, the Mining Co has posted their Linux Best of the Net site awards. Debian was number 1. I'd never heard of this company before, but am not adverse to any good publicity for Debian. The awards page is at http://linux.miningco.com/library/awards/blapr98.htm Looks like they've put a good deal of effort into their site. I don't know who made the ratings(has good taste, I imagine) ... but notice Debian is the #1 site, while no other distribution made the top 10. John Lapeyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian GNU/Linux: Best of the Web! (fwd)
On Tue, Apr 21, 1998 at 11:33:49AM -0400, James A.Treacy wrote: For those few of you who don't read http://slashdot.org, the Mining Co has posted their Linux Best of the Net site awards. Debian was number 1. I'd never heard of this company before, but am not adverse to any good publicity for Debian. The awards page is at http://linux.miningco.com/library/awards/blapr98.htm Three cheers for Debian. Are we really that good?? =) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
