Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 13:32 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Am Freitag, 28. September 2012 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 02:52 -0400, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote: The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. Something wrong with 'x86_64'? FWIW I never noticed a difference between CONFIG_MK8 yes and not set for real-time kernels. This x86_64 vs amd64 thingy does confuse newbies, but after a while everybody understands why there are those name. i368? What is it for? I only know 80386, never heard about 80368 ;). There are enough explanations available regarding to the names. Changing names only will cause more confusion. Hmmm, the thing is named i386, huh? I often read i368 too. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1349160595.1164.1.camel@localhost.localdomain
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 10/1/2012 2:02 PM, Kelly Clowers wrote: Agreed, if you where going to change the name, x86-64 makes the most sense, is the most common name for it in the Linux community (MS users tend to use x64, which is absurd), and is technically accurate. Actually, x86-64 is no longer technically accurate. AMD renamed the architecture from x86-64 to AMD64 to brand it, much to my chagrin. Currently, AMD64 is the technically accurate name of the ISA. AMD deprecated x86-64. Please read my post which stated why both the AMD64 and IA64 port names must be changed simultaneously for any renaming of ports to effect the desired result, which is eliminating confusion amongst new/lazy users. Changing AMD64 in isolation will do nothing to un-confuse new users when they see IA64 in the ports list. Anyone not in the know will instantly think that means Intel and AMD 64 bit CPU. This is sufficiently confusing to many users, who apparently don't read the descriptions, that they feel the need to ask on this list for clarification. Again, renaming IA64 to Itanium and AMD64 to amdintel64, or similar, would instantly fix the confusion. Why? IA64 would no longer exist to confuse people, and of the other port choices, amdintel64 would simply make sense, because the person downloading the distro knows his/her CPU is an AMD 64 bit CPU, or an Intel 64 bit CPU, because this information is on the processor box or computer system. The names of the ISAs the chips support is NOT on the box or the computer system. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/506bcb13.9040...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 2:51 AM, Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote: On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 01:47:55 -0500 Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Hello Stan, name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to understand. I disagree. the use of the letters INTL are already established, admittedly in other fields, as representing International. For one letter, what's wrong with AMDINTEL64? However, x86-64 is the better option, IMO. Your contention that most users don't what it is, they've never heard of it may be true in the general sense, but we're talking Linux adopters here; On the whole, they're a bit more technically savvy that the average Joe. Agreed, if you where going to change the name, x86-64 makes the most sense, is the most common name for it in the Linux community (MS users tend to use x64, which is absurd), and is technically accurate. There is no reason to call it AMDINTEL64 or any such thing. Unless you also want to change i386 to INTELAMD32 or some silliness, but at that point you might as well change the official names to 32 bit AMD and Intel processors, like the 386 and original Pentium and Athlon and Itanium, Intel's huge, expensive 64 bit chip for servers that competes with IBM POWER. I mean really, there is a point where it just gets silly. Just use a reasonable name and give a good description. Speaking of which, I note that the Debian ports page has changed, it now has improved descriptions that call out Xeon and Core2 and Itanium by name, which I don't believe it did before. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAFoWM=9k_dohz7xd23vkchiq1a6l4d6htxnggp5ssavscl3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Sonntag, 30. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days. Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as competent as before, I couldn't say. There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are irrelevant. What matters is that people aren't getting it. If we change the port names they more than likely will get it. So or so I think if someone likes to propose a change of the current naming time its not sufficient to discuss this in this user mailing list. ;) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209301240.25255.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
How long after end-of-life of the itanium chip will Debian keep the port to IA64? sorry for top-posting; that is how droid does. Wolf Halton http://sourcefreedom.com Apache developer: wolfhal...@apache.org On Sep 30, 2012 6:40 AM, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Am Sonntag, 30. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days. Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as competent as before, I couldn't say. There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are irrelevant. What matters is that people aren't getting it. If we change the port names they more than likely will get it. So or so I think if someone likes to propose a change of the current naming time its not sufficient to discuss this in this user mailing list. ;) -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209301240.25255.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/30/2012 6:02 AM, Wolf Halton wrote: How long after end-of-life of the itanium chip will Debian keep the port to IA64? There's no requirement, that I am aware of, that says Debian must wait until EOL of a processor before dropping support for it. Anyone have a link to the release inclusion criteria for ports? Is it even publicly published? -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5068f7d5.8050...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/28/2012 1:52 AM, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote: The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. Something wrong with 'x86_64'? Apparently AMD thought so. They renamed the architecture from their original vendor neutral x86-64 to the vendor specific, branded, AMD64. Which is why Debian now calls its port AMD64, whereas it originally called it x86-64. Debian currently uses ISA names for its ports. AMD changed the name of the ISA, so Debian followed suit. IMO, again, for the benefit of new or not so technical users, we should break with the tradition of naming ports after ISAs, and give them names that are meaningful to all users, not just those of us ITK. Like it or not, silly as it, both Intel and AMD now brand the crap out of their chips and avoid declaring the ISA in their literature. If Debian is truly serious about driving adoption, changing some of the port names to something new users can easily recognize is a good step. Adopting Microsoft's use of x64, while disdainful, would be the most logical move. I avoided mentioning x64' in my previous posts knowing it would not be taken seriously, even though it is the smartest move. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50669909.4070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/28/2012 6:30 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: AMDINTL64 seems to long for me. Compared to kfreebsd-amd64 or kfreebsd-i386 it's not long at all. Besides, the length is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is that people know exactly what it is by name alone. I think x86-64 would make some sense. SUSE for examples uses it. The problem here is branding. Most users have no clue what x86-64 is--they've never heard of it. All they know is they have a 64 bit AMD or Intel chip, of one name or another, such as Phenom or Core i7. The name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to understand. The other problem is the existence of the name IA64. This has as much to do with the confusion as AMD64 does. To fix the entire problem, IA64 must be eliminated so it doesn't confuse people who have non-Itanium Intel chips and are not techies. Or even pc32 and pc64, since that is the classical PC platform. But then why other workstations on Alpha, SPARC base should not be called PCs as well. So maybe: x86-64 and x86-32. ;) Similar thing with PowerPC. powerpc-32, powerpc-64? You're over thinking this Martin. There's no need to change all the names, just the ones that are problematic. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5066999b.3060...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/28/2012 7:54 AM, Jon Dowland wrote: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:35:49AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Maybe we could start some kind of petition for Itanium and AMDINTL64. I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion. Itanium will probably disappear as a supported release architecture sooner than it would take to convince enough people it was worth renaming. AFAIK, the only place Debian has on Itanic these days is possibly in the second hand market for SGI Altix 3/4K and HP RX systems, in North America anyway. And the numbers would be extremely small. You may be right on this one. Itanic is included in Wheezy yes? So it will be at least a few years before the IA64 port is dropped. Changing from IA64 to Itanium during the Wheezy release isn't going to confuse anyone. And it would absolutely be helpful to many new users with non-Itanic chips who get confused by it, containing both [I]ntel and [A]MD in the name. This port name, combined with the AMD64 port name, create the perfect storm of confusion for new users with desktop x86-64 CPUs. Intel isn't going to rebrand Itanium before they kill it, so this change is a no brainer. Getting AMD64 changed I'd think would meet more resistance. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50669e0d.1030...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 01:47:55 -0500 Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Hello Stan, name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to understand. I disagree. the use of the letters INTL are already established, admittedly in other fields, as representing International. For one letter, what's wrong with AMDINTEL64? However, x86-64 is the better option, IMO. Your contention that most users don't what it is, they've never heard of it may be true in the general sense, but we're talking Linux adopters here; On the whole, they're a bit more technically savvy that the average Joe. Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days. Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as competent as before, I couldn't say. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent But they didn't tell him the first two didn't count Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/29/2012 4:51 AM, Brad Rogers wrote: On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 01:47:55 -0500 Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Hello Stan, name I suggest above allows even the most challenged users to understand. I disagree. the use of the letters INTL are already established, admittedly in other fields, as representing International. For one letter, what's wrong with AMDINTEL64? Works for me. The whole point behind the proposed change is eliminating confusion. If adding the 'e' helps lets do it. However, x86-64 is the better option, IMO. Your contention that most users don't what it is, they've never heard of it may be true in the general sense, but we're talking Linux adopters here; On the whole, they're a bit more technically savvy that the average Joe. It's not my contention of supposition, it's simply fact. Read the post that started this thread. The OP was confused by AMF64. He's surely be just as confused by x86-64. Driving adoption is all about pulling the non-Linux savvy crowd to Debian. Your point is valid for current users, not new users, new defined as coming from Microsoft Windows and never having used Linux. If some Linux savvy users, such as the OP who started this thread, can't understand the current port names, 'new' users surely won't. You're also missing the fact that IA64 confuses people who have never heard of the Intel EPIC chips based on the IA64 ISA. They see IA64 and think Intel AMD 64. Having said that, I am aware that something is changing as the IA64/AMD64 question is getting asked more frequently these days. Whether that's because there are more adopters that are not quite as competent as before, I couldn't say. There are multiple reasons for it, but the reasons/causes are irrelevant. What matters is that people aren't getting it. If we change the port names they more than likely will get it. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5067b6b7.5010...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/27/2012 10:07 AM, Jochen Spieker wrote: Tony Baldwin: On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'. Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit processor, or an AMD64? No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been resolved in this very thread. Yes, it was, very early, by yours truly. The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. The conventions Debian uses are based on the microarchitecture names, which back in the day worked fine and were self explanatory: i386, IA64, 680x0, MIPS, ALPHA, SPARC, PPC, etc. But when AMD released the x86-64 architecture in 2002, and Intel copied it, creating two 64 bit chip families from Intel, the old naming convention fell apart, as many laypeople can't make sense of it. Granted the number of people unable/unwilling to figure this out on their own is rather small, so those in charge simply haven't addressed the issue. Given how often this question is asked, I think changes should be made to fix this. Maybe we could start some kind of petition for Itanium and AMDINTL64. I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50654545.50...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote: The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. Something wrong with 'x86_64'? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209280252.47782.neal.p.mur...@alum.wpi.edu
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 02:52 -0400, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote: The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. Something wrong with 'x86_64'? FWIW I never noticed a difference between CONFIG_MK8 yes and not set for real-time kernels. This x86_64 vs amd64 thingy does confuse newbies, but after a while everybody understands why there are those name. i368? What is it for? I only know 80386, never heard about 80368 ;). There are enough explanations available regarding to the names. Changing names only will cause more confusion. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348815989.1154.8.camel@localhost.localdomain
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Freitag, 28. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/27/2012 10:07 AM, Jochen Spieker wrote: Tony Baldwin: On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'. Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit processor, or an AMD64? No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been resolved in this very thread. Yes, it was, very early, by yours truly. The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. The conventions Debian uses are based on the microarchitecture names, which back in the day worked fine and were self explanatory: i386, IA64, 680x0, MIPS, ALPHA, SPARC, PPC, etc. But when AMD released the x86-64 architecture in 2002, and Intel copied it, creating two 64 bit chip families from Intel, the old naming convention fell apart, as many laypeople can't make sense of it. AMDINTL64 seems to long for me. I think x86-64 would make some sense. SUSE for examples uses it. Or even pc32 and pc64, since that is the classical PC platform. But then why other workstations on Alpha, SPARC base should not be called PCs as well. So maybe: x86-64 and x86-32. ;) Similar thing with PowerPC. powerpc-32, powerpc-64? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209281330.45524.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Freitag, 28. September 2012 schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Fri, 2012-09-28 at 02:52 -0400, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 28, 2012 02:35:49 AM Stan Hoeppner wrote: The only permanent solution to this confusion is for Debian to rename the IA64 port to Itanium and rename the AMD64 port to something like AMDINTL64. Something wrong with 'x86_64'? FWIW I never noticed a difference between CONFIG_MK8 yes and not set for real-time kernels. This x86_64 vs amd64 thingy does confuse newbies, but after a while everybody understands why there are those name. i368? What is it for? I only know 80386, never heard about 80368 ;). There are enough explanations available regarding to the names. Changing names only will cause more confusion. Hmmm, the thing is named i386, huh? -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209281332.52300.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:35:49AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Maybe we could start some kind of petition for Itanium and AMDINTL64. I think these tell everyone at a glance what they need to know when selecting a port, and would completely eliminate the confusion. Itanium will probably disappear as a supported release architecture sooner than it would take to convince enough people it was worth renaming. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120928125409.GE5503@debian
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: Am 21.09.2012 um 06:43 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/20/2012 8:43 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Everybody has to start somewhere snip Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580. Why not? AFAIR it was with the release of Squeeze that I did my first 64 bit installation after using Debian 10 years. I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'. Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit processor, or an AMD64? I have AMD64, and Lenny was my first OS on said architecture. I 3 my AMD64 machine. (still have a couple of Pentium 32bit machines around, an old Dell d420 and an old Celeron machine serving as a server in my office). ./tony -- http://www.tonybaldwin.me all tony, all the time! 3F330C6E signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Tony Baldwin: On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 09:33:45AM +0200, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'. Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit processor, or an AMD64? No, it isn't. And I am sure this exact misconception has already been resolved in this very thread. J. -- I wish I had been aware enough to enjoy my time as a toddler. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Tony Baldwin t...@tonybaldwin.org wrote: Isn't this just a question of whether you have a Pentium/Intel 64bit processor, or an AMD64? No. That is the point of this thread. The marketing name Intel 64, also known as EM64T *is* AMD64 aka x86-64. All modern Intel Pentiums, Core series, and Xeons are x86-64. It is called AMD64 in Debian because AMD invented that extension to x86; Intel copied it when it turned out to be so successful. IA64 (Intel Architecture 64, named long before the marketing name Intel 64 for x86-64) is the Itanium processor and is about as different from anything x86 as it is possible to be. It is a VLIW architecture, very unlike traditional CISC (x86, PDP-11, VAX, Moto 68k) or RISC (ARM, MIPS, POWER, SPARC). Itanium is a very expensive chip that is used in very expensive servers and mainframe-type computers. It is/was meant to compete with high-end modern SPARCs and IBM POWER, and to some extent IBM zSeries/System Z, and it was a replacement for HP's PA-RISC. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAFoWM=-wf0HN2c=yt8z1sjpoubydyx5sqneo_qea3rw+vpm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Dienstag, 25. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: I'm direct, often blunt, opinionated, arrogant, and sometimes abrasive. I admit these character flaws and make no apologies for them. That's who I am. I guess I was made to counterbalance all of the sugar coating and political correctness afoot in the world these days. ;) LOL I think most people know when I swing the cluebat that I'm not trying to belittle the person on the receiving end, but simply forcefully driving home a point. If I actually intended to hurt someone's feelings I'd reply off list. That makes it personal. And this is exactly why I never do such a thing--because it's never personal. Good to know. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209272018.26837.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Stan Hoeppner: I think most people know when I swing the cluebat that I'm not trying to belittle the person on the receiving end, but simply forcefully driving home a point. If I actually intended to hurt someone's feelings I'd reply off list. That makes it personal. And this is exactly why I never do such a thing--because it's *never* personal. Interesting approach. I do it the other way round: I discarded many e-mails I had already written after asking myself whether I would write the same to the person privately, instead of on-list. If I feel uneasy about being harsh in private, I don't do it in public. J. -- When standing at the top of beachy head I find the rocks below very attractive. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Tue, 2012-09-25 at 00:19 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: I think most people know when I swing the cluebat that I'm not trying to belittle the person on the receiving end, but simply forcefully driving home a point. If I actually intended to hurt someone's feelings I'd reply off list. That makes it personal. And this is exactly why I never do such a thing--because it's *never* personal. It sure seemed to me you were trying to belittle the person. And your repeated elaborate posts defending the propriety of your original response don't help either. I wish you would be more civil instead of more clever about being incivil. Ross -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348553530.11083.79.ca...@corn.betterworld.us
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 02:12:10 AM Ross Boylan wrote: I wish you would be more civil instead of more clever about being incivil. Never mind that Miss Manners would be utterly aghast that someone would try to claim the right to behave rudely, impolitely and/or barbarously simply because some notorious person behaves in such a manner. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209250242.52406.neal.p.mur...@alum.wpi.edu
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am 21.09.2012 um 06:43 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/20/2012 8:43 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Everybody has to start somewhere snip Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580. Why not? AFAIR it was with the release of Squeeze that I did my first 64 bit installation after using Debian 10 years. I also had to find the answer for 'IA64 or AMD64?'. AFAIR I used google and then I grepped /proc/cpuinfo for 'lm'. BTW: We have here many powerful machines out of service, because they are not worth the time for refurbishing. Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/acce46f6-3efe-4f31-9b48-1451a32e1...@fixpunkt.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am 21.09.2012 um 22:53 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Then you should not answer. Or only give a short but friendly answer with a link like Camaleón did: | The available architectures are detailed and explained here: | | http://www.debian.org/ports/index.en.html Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e192e4a1-6404-4422-b9ca-e300801ee...@fixpunkt.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am 21.09.2012 um 23:16 schrieb Neal Murphy: If one cannot respond with civility and respect, one shouldn't respond at all. Attitudes like yours drive people away from OSS. Fully ACK. Open Source needs open communication. Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/994ac37e-9da8-461a-b0c5-069b00c03...@fixpunkt.de
RE: IA64 or AMD64?
Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580. You're right! Some people starts biger than a DL580 :D Ezen üzenet és annak bármely csatolt anyaga bizalmas, jogi védelem alatt áll, a nyilvános közléstől védett. Az üzenetet kizárólag a címzett, illetve az általa meghatalmazottak használhatják fel. Ha Ön nem az üzenet címzettje, úgy kérjük, hogy telefonon, vagy e-mail-ben értesítse erről az üzenet küldőjét és törölje az üzenetet, valamint annak összes csatolt mellékletét a rendszeréből. Ha Ön nem az üzenet címzettje, abban az esetben tilos az üzenetet vagy annak bármely csatolt mellékletét lemásolnia, elmentenie, az üzenet tartalmát bárkivel közölnie vagy azzal visszaélnie. This message and any attachment are confidential and are legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient, please phone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment of it from your system. Please note that any dissemination, distribution, copying or use of or reliance upon the information contained in and transmitted by this e-mail or to anyone other than the recipient designated above by the sender is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7af9f7955a605547ab5bcd2b303f4b7d0109f1d98...@budakzpmbx02.mak.allamkincstar.gov.hu
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 2:53 AM, Tóth Tibor Péter toth.tibor.pe...@kincsinfo.hu wrote: Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580. You're right! Some people starts biger than a DL580 :D Ezen üzenet és annak bármely csatolt anyaga bizalmas, jogi védelem alatt áll, a nyilvános közléstől védett. Az üzenetet kizárólag a címzett, illetve az általa meghatalmazottak használhatják fel. Ha Ön nem az üzenet címzettje, úgy kérjük, hogy telefonon, vagy e-mail-ben értesítse erről az üzenet küldőjét és törölje az üzenetet, valamint annak összes csatolt mellékletét a rendszeréből. Ha Ön nem az üzenet címzettje, abban az esetben tilos az üzenetet vagy annak bármely csatolt mellékletét lemásolnia, elmentenie, az üzenet tartalmát bárkivel közölnie vagy azzal visszaélnie. This message and any attachment are confidential and are legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient, please phone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment of it from your system. Please note that any dissemination, distribution, copying or use of or reliance upon the information contained in and transmitted by this e-mail or to anyone other than the recipient designated above by the sender is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7af9f7955a605547ab5bcd2b303f4b7d0109f1d98...@budakzpmbx02.mak.allamkincstar.gov.hu I started with AS/400 and knew pretty much nothing, does it count? =) -- Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKP++NfaD6CoWXHfD-jB3uMC=fn1kj4avkme8hgs27m6flc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am 21.09.2012 um 22:53 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Then you should not answer. Or only give a short but friendly answer with a link like Camaleón did: | The available architectures are detailed and explained here: | | http://www.debian.org/ports/index.en.html Helmut Wollmersdorfer Camaleon is a woman, are the others who are asking to become a slave, women? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4278c4210444734d58337f2de82d6243.squir...@mail.vcn.bc.ca
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 03:53:21PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. +1 That is one of the reasons it is getting harder and harder to find a helpful hint to a search because it is getting swallowed in haystacks, and the haystacks are getting bigger. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120925113125.GG8247@tal
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 04:54:26PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 4:16 PM, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer That's how it's supposed to work, but rarely does. Most people these days go straight for the mailing list hoping to save themselves the time/effort of doing research. +1 Especially when people are so very willing to do their Internet searches for them. There will likely be dozens more replies to this thread with the Lilliputians gang tackling me for being a bully. I guess forcefully presenting facts is now classified as bullying in 2012. There's a big difference. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120925114406.GH8247@tal
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/23/2012 8:14 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Am Freitag, 21. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: That's how it's supposed to work, but rarely does. Most people these days go straight for the mailing list hoping to save themselves the time/effort of doing research. This is what the OP did in this case, which shoots your argument down entirely. And how do you actually know that? Personal observation, but numbers are list dependent. But I'll revise most to many for the general case, as I don't think it's over 50% of people doing this, but the number is far more than a few. I agree it seems likely. But maybe Mauro made some effort? The answer is simply too easy to find. One click from the Debian home page (Ports/Architectures), and the first Google hit for IA64 AMD64 yields the answer. I didn't lop his head for being incompetent or lazy--many such folks around. I lopped his head because he should have known better, given the caliber of system he's working on. WRT my attitude driving people away from FLOSS, apparently you've never heard of a guy named Linus' Torvalds and his behavior. I'm absolutely tame compared to Linus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g 1. I do not think that Linus is the best example to follow, just cause he started the whole Linux kernel thing. You misunderstood. I said he's much worse. Given that far more people listen to Linus than me, he'd be driving far more people away from FLOSS, if this theory were true. Obviously it's not. 2. He attacked a company, namely NVidia. In this video, yes. He didn´t attack anyone personally. Not in this video. Apparently you've not seen his colorful attacks on individuals on LKML, calling people or their coding efforts stupid, dumb, insane, or his favorite, crap. He's far more abrasive than me on a regular basis. I only lop heads on rare occasions. What Linus and I do have in common is that he doesn't apologize for being blunt, brutally honest, and occasionally abrasive, and neither do I. It's been a long time since I lopped heads like this on debian-user. This may be the first of this level of abrasiveness. It's worth noting that I predicated my post with the fact that I was going to be harsh, and I explained why I was being harsh. Some people got it and some didn't. Those that didn't overreacted due to their own predispositions, personal demons. Frankly I was a bit surprised by this. If I had literally done something like run over the OP's dog intentionally, or clobbered him with a 2x4, I could understand this reaction. But not over a head lopping list post... -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/506114c4@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/23/2012 9:20 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote: Stan, I feel your question is sincere and I will answer it sincerely. Below is your original post, quoted in its entirety: I'm going to snip a lot and try to respond to specific points as we've taken up so much list space with this tread already. This post is perfectly fine with 2 exceptions: This may be a bit harsh, but it's the glaring truth: your employer should fire you and hire someone qualified to do your job. This is called hyperbole, here prompted by incredulity. This is colorful, creative clue batting, and yes, harsh. I'm obviously not calling on his employer, whoever that is, to fire him. You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Again, clue batting/head lopping. One or both of these is likely true, simply based on the information he gave, and the fact he asked the question here You even appropriately expressed your frustration in another way in your post. The answer you seek is only one click deep from the Debian home page, under the 'Support' heading on the right side of the page. And note my frustration wasn't with answering the question. I always give people the answer (usually in far too much detail) and usually without the hyperbole and cluebatting. My frustration was with the fact that, again, someone of the OP's apparent caliber, based on the caliber of the system being used, should have been able to easily find the answer. It's not necessary to live and breath this stuff as I do in order to find such answers, without resorting to a mailing list. The only thing you can conclude from his question is that he didn't know the difference between amd64 and ia64. That's it. You can draw no other conclusions about his experience, knowledge, or intentions. Well, I did. Maybe I just key on subtleties that others don't. Note two critical words in the last line of the OP's post. On 9/20/2012 2:44 AM, Mauro wrote: Hello. I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? If the OP doesn't know to look for the word Ports or Architectures on the front page then it's not outside the bounds of reason that he'd not find the answer, on his own, to the question he asked here. He knew which words. See above. You made the unreasonable (in my opinion) assumption that the OP is an idiot. I didn't make this assumption. I didn't use the word idiot. I said he was lazy or incompetent. Incompetency is not equal to idiocy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competence_%28human_resources%29 There is no factual ground in the OP's original (or any subsequent) post to conclude that he is, in fact, an idiot. If I agree. See above. someone comes onto this list being a jerk in their original post then I have no issue with folks like you taking them to task. While I don't think this list should be a free for all full of flames, I don't feel it at all inappropriate to tell those to take a piss on everyone to piss off. (I love those for whom their post opens with Debian sucks! The sound doesn't work! PulseAudio! Lennart! Lennart! Lennart! Debian sucks! and then go on to ask can someone help me get PulseAudio working?) What I take exception to are instances where someone asks an innocent and reasonable question (and for me the bar here is *very* low) and then someone comes along and hits them with both barrels. I ignore all those posts. The *ONLY REASON* I replied to the OP's post is because he stated he has a quad socket DL580 w/quad core CPUs. Large systems are one of my areas of expertise. When I saw the question attached to this box I went ballistic. I've already stated why. Everyone I know, or have ever known, that has worked on such hardware, already knows this stuff. And if not could easily find it. Which is the reason behind the lazy/incompetent remarks. To be honest, it wasn't even your post that motivated me to comment. I generally let one-offs like that slide. I just don't care enough. What incenses me, however, is that when you're called on it, you take neither of the most sensible courses of action: 1. apologize or 2. shut up. If I felt I'd done something wrong I'd have apologized. If only a couple of people had attacked me/my post, I'd have not responded. When a half dozen or more attacked, I defended. Simple as that. To say nothing at that point is tantamount to admitting fault--ducking. You took door number 3. vociferously defend your initial attack and complain that you're the victim. I *never* claimed I was a victim. Quite the opposite. Stating that the Lilliputians are gang tackling me drives that point home. Have you read Gulliver's Travels? Tens of thousands of Lilliputians could gang tackle Gulliver and he'd simply stand up and brush them off. When I'm called out for such anti-social behavior (and I
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/22/2012 7:14 AM, Camaleón wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:53:21 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. But that's you own opinion and being a personal thinking, do you think making such assertions is going to help anyone? Or are simply aimed to feed your selfish and completely lack of empathy standpoint? Join 10 random technical mailing lists and ask the question Should I search for answers to my issue before asking here, or just immediately ask here first, every time I have a problem? I'm truly surprised you'd argue this point as it's universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette. But after reading the rest of this, which I snipped to reduce resources, it seems clear you will simply argue every point I make, whether you're right or wrong, because you are apparently so irritated at me that you equate agreeing with anything I say to slitting your own wrists or walking through fire. If you want to call me a jerk then do so. But don't argue the wrong side of an issue simply to show your disdain by being a contrarian. That does disservice to your reputation. Burying this thread is way overdue. If you truly feel this dead horse hasn't been beaten enough, please email me off list out of courtesy to all others. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505eb8e3.7050...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 2:23 AM, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: On 9/22/2012 7:14 AM, Camaleón wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:53:21 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. But that's you own opinion and being a personal thinking, do you think making such assertions is going to help anyone? Or are simply aimed to feed your selfish and completely lack of empathy standpoint? Join 10 random technical mailing lists and ask the question Should I search for answers to my issue before asking here, or just immediately ask here first, every time I have a problem? You're right! No one disagrees with you here. You'll get the same answer everywhere you go! It's universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette to research your issues first before posting, to the best of your ability. I'm truly surprised you'd argue this point as it's universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette. But after reading the rest of this, which I snipped to reduce resources, it seems clear you will simply argue every point I make, whether you're right or wrong, because you are apparently so irritated at me that you equate agreeing with anything I say to slitting your own wrists or walking through fire. Nope! While it's universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette to research your issues to the best of your ability first, it's also universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette to not be a jerk. While folks may have a bad day or let their feelings slip or otherwise -- be a jerk -- it's not acceptable anywhere. Is it understandable? Sure, it happens sometimes. Doesn't make it right. If you want to call me a jerk then do so. But don't argue the wrong side of an issue simply to show your disdain by being a contrarian. That does disservice to your reputation. You're a jerk and a contrarian and I think the responses you're getting in this thread show exactly what that's doing to *your* reputation. And, by the way, you can call me Chris. There's really no need to keep repeating my full name, as it's at the top of every email I send. Chris is also in the signature. Use the signature. Burying this thread is way overdue. If you truly feel this dead horse hasn't been beaten enough, please email me off list out of courtesy to all others. While one could hope you're wanting this off the list because you've finally realized how much you've embarrassed yourself, I know that, sadly, that isn't true. -- Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOEVnYv2bBso8xOfJ+eT1Z-LsKJ7htHAMiuQ9anG54AjKqtA=g...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Stan, Calling people names is no way to encourage them to use free software. Rick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bb13d31f-28c7-47b1-b34c-3c121e74f...@pobox.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/23/2012 3:20 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote: While one could hope you're wanting this off the list because you've finally realized how much you've embarrassed yourself, I know that, sadly, that isn't true. The only thing in this thread that has embarrassed me is the hypocrisy of those, including you Chris, claiming to be more mature, claiming the moral high ground, while simultaneously acting like immature children on a school playground, attempting to gang up on the perceived bully because they themselves have been bullied. Every post in this thread since my reply to the OP has been about this, not the actual content of my post. Go back and re-read my original reply to the OP. Then explain to the list what it was that I said which so compelled you to go to battle. Explain *why* you felt so compelled, why you were unable to simply bite your tongue and move to the next thread like most of the thousands of subscribers have. The vitriol in this thread has everything to do with the personalities of those attacking me, and very little to do with my reply to the OP. Now let's see how many attacks I get for speaking truth once again. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505eeed2.2070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Freitag, 21. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Stan, I agree on this. I consider it disrespectful if someone asks me without having made any effort to solve the question by some quick search or so. And I also tell people this. Why? Cause I do not like being treated like a unpaid community Debian / Linux support slave. (Yes, sometimes I felt like that, but then thats also my own problem, cause if I do not like to answer, I can simply ignore the question and be done with it.) But all this said: I think there are less hurtful ways to express that. And here, a short answer with a clear request to do some own research next time, takes less time than a personal attack and dealing with its consequences. When I learned one thing in mailing lists, its that I better stay away from any sort of attacking a person. I try look at the behavior, not the person. Cause I would not like to be attacked either. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209231509.51040.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Freitag, 21. September 2012 schrieb Neal Murphy: On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer; it is the duty of others in the forum to respond politely and civilly. Second, Neal, I disagree on this one. No one here has any duty to answer any post. Period. But if one decides to answer, I agree its best to maintain some politeness. That doesn´t mean saying yes and amen to everything, but for me it means to stay away from attacking a person. Always have respect for another person. Even, well especially if you disaggree. Thats what I try to live to (and sometimes likely also fail to live to). -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209231512.48381.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Am Freitag, 21. September 2012 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 9/21/2012 4:16 PM, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer That's how it's supposed to work, but rarely does. Most people these days go straight for the mailing list hoping to save themselves the time/effort of doing research. This is what the OP did in this case, which shoots your argument down entirely. And how do you actually know that? I agree it seems likely. But maybe Mauro made some effort? WRT my attitude driving people away from FLOSS, apparently you've never heard of a guy named Linus' Torvalds and his behavior. I'm absolutely tame compared to Linus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g 1. I do not think that Linus is the best example to follow, just cause he started the whole Linux kernel thing. 2. He attacked a company, namely NVidia. He didn´t attack anyone personally. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209231514.57553.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri 21 Sep 2012 at 19:42:03 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 7:05 PM, T Elcor wrote: If someone deems a question stupid and below his level of expertise one can always ignore the question, as there is no obligation for anyone to answer any questions on this list. Perhaps someone else will give a simple answer to a simple/stupid question without any of the name calling. Read my original reply to the OP. I gave him the answer, in full detail, and a link to the page from where I copied it. I also derided him for his failure to make a cursory effort of his own. The OP expressed appreciation and satisfaction with your response too. It isn't a stupid question. I've answered it many times on this list. But in most/all of those cases, those asking were noobs. Someone installing on a quad socket DL580 isn't a noob, certainly should not be a noob. Someone who should not be a noob asking a noob question is what prompted my derision. Again, anyone at a level where they're working or playing with a DL580 should have already known the answer, or been able to easily find it, especially given the ease with which this particular answer can be found. Perhaps he has a bad memory: http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-users/2008-11/msg00710.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120923133551.GA25143@desktop
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: On 9/23/2012 3:20 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote: While one could hope you're wanting this off the list because you've finally realized how much you've embarrassed yourself, I know that, sadly, that isn't true. The only thing in this thread that has embarrassed me is the hypocrisy of those, including you Chris, claiming to be more mature, claiming the moral high ground, while simultaneously acting like immature children on a school playground, attempting to gang up on the perceived bully because they themselves have been bullied. Every post in this thread since my reply to the OP has been about this, not the actual content of my post. Go back and re-read my original reply to the OP. Then explain to the list what it was that I said which so compelled you to go to battle. Explain *why* you felt so compelled, why you were unable to simply bite your tongue and move to the next thread like most of the thousands of subscribers have. The vitriol in this thread has everything to do with the personalities of those attacking me, and very little to do with my reply to the OP. Now let's see how many attacks I get for speaking truth once again. Stan, I feel your question is sincere and I will answer it sincerely. Below is your original post, quoted in its entirety: === From Stan === This may be a bit harsh, but it's the glaring truth: your employer should fire you and hire someone qualified to do your job. The answer you seek is only one click deep from the Debian home page, under the Support heading on the right side of the page: http://www.debian.org/ports/ On this page we find: 64-bit PC, (amd64) First officially released with Debian 4.0. Port to the 64 bit AMD64 processors. The goal is to support both 32bit- and 64bit-userland on this architecture. This port supports AMD's 64-bit Opteron, Athlon and Sempron processors, and Intel's processors with EM64T support, including the Pentium D and various Xeon and Core2 series. Intel Itanium, IA-64 First officially released with Debian 3.0. This is a port to Intel's first 64-bit architecture. Note: this should not be confused with the latest Intel 64-bit extensions for Pentium 4 and Celeron processors, called EM64T; for these, see the AMD64 port. You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent == Fin == This post is perfectly fine with 2 exceptions: This may be a bit harsh, but it's the glaring truth: your employer should fire you and hire someone qualified to do your job. And You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent You even appropriately expressed your frustration in another way in your post. The answer you seek is only one click deep from the Debian home page, under the 'Support' heading on the right side of the page. There's nothing in the OP's post that indicates he doesn't know what kind of hardware he has (x86 vs. Itanium). He even identifies the processor in the original post as Xeon. When it's pointed out to him that IA64 is for Itanium, he immediately indicates that no, he's using Xeon and not Itanium. The confusion stems from amd64 vs. ia64. It is not unreasonable to wonder which is correct, and you pointed him, correctly, to the answer. There is no need to insult him, to call for him to lose his job, to call him lazy, or to call him incompetent. There is no basis in the original post on which to rest any such judgement. It is not unreasonable for someone who works in this space (using this caliber of hardware) but is unfamiliar with Linux to not understand the reasons behind name of the amd64 port (I personally prefer the Red Hat convention of calling it x86_64). The only thing you can conclude from his question is that he didn't know the difference between amd64 and ia64. That's it. You can draw no other conclusions about his experience, knowledge, or intentions. Not only that, but the Ports information on the front Debian homepage just now took me a few minute to find and I had to hit ^F and type ports because it's not immediately obvious in that wall of text in a tiny typeface where I should be looking to find the page you quoted (the overall navigability of the Debian website leaves a lot to be desired already). If the OP doesn't know to look for the word Ports or Architectures on the front page then it's not outside the bounds of reason that he'd not find the answer, on his own, to the question he asked here. A question which boils down, basically to, I'm running a Xeon (x86) system and I can't find the difference between the amd64 and ia64 versions of Debian when trying to figure out which to install on it. Can someone give me a hand here? You made the unreasonable (in my opinion) assumption that the OP is an idiot. There is no factual ground in the OP's original (or any subsequent) post to conclude that he is, in fact, an idiot. If someone comes onto this list being a jerk in their original post then I
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 02:23:15 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/22/2012 7:14 AM, Camaleón wrote: (...) I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. But that's you own opinion and being a personal thinking, do you think making such assertions is going to help anyone? Or are simply aimed to feed your selfish and completely lack of empathy standpoint? Join 10 random technical mailing lists and ask the question Should I search for answers to my issue before asking here, or just immediately ask here first, every time I have a problem? There's no need to ask on technical mailing lists about it because that's something it comes with the common sense in all life matters. I'm truly surprised you'd argue this point as it's universally understood/accepted support mailing list etiquette. The only universally accepted everywhere is politeness. Period. When you break that simple rule (and you break it too many often), the rest is superfluous. And no, it's not a valid point that you said hey, but I pointed the OP to the solution. Yes, of course, like many of us also did without having to add crap over the user. But after reading the rest of this, which I snipped to reduce resources, it seems clear you will simply argue every point I make, whether you're right or wrong, because you are apparently so irritated at me that you equate agreeing with anything I say to slitting your own wrists or walking through fire. One thing is for true: I'm irritated when someone starts arguing against unrelated and personal thought that only hurt the user. There are ways and ways for replying and I guess you are capable enough to say the things you think in a more satirical -yet friendly- way. If you want to call me a jerk then do so. I don't recall to have used that term. But don't argue the wrong side of an issue simply to show your disdain by being a contrarian. That does disservice to your reputation. It's just a matter of taste: you think the point is all around a user that is (using your own words) lazy or unqualified while I think the problem is around the attitude you show in this mailing list. Burying this thread is way overdue. If you truly feel this dead horse hasn't been beaten enough, please email me off list out of courtesy to all others. So what you want for you is not what others deserve. That's unfair, so to speak. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k3n8j0$lsj$7...@ger.gmane.org
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
- Original Message - From: Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com Go back and re-read my original reply to the OP. Then explain to the list what it was that I said which so compelled you to go to battle. The problem is that you make some questionable assumptions, hold them as absolute truth and then proceed to insult other people on the list. Specifically, from your post: You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent This creates a hostile and non-constructive environment and is in violation of Debian Code of Conduct, please see http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct . If you cannot respond to a simple question without resorting to insults, consider not responding at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348421456.25537.yahoomail...@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Joe Pfeiffer pfeif...@cs.nmsu.edu wrote: T Elcor tel...@yahoo.com writes: - Original Message - From: Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Please see the Code of Conduct ( http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ) instead of inventing your own rules. I am reading this in a Usenet newsgroup (linux.debian.user). A mailing list code of conduct is at best of peripheral relevance. If there is a portal to a mailing some place, it really doesn't make any difference to where I'm reading (and posting). Where and how you read this mailing list is immaterial. The vehicle of discussion is the debian-user mailing list. That you read it through some newsgroup gateway is irrelevant. The mailing list CoC still applies. Stan violates these two points of the CoC: * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome. * Try not to flame; it is not polite. If you claim that by reading this through a newsgroup these guidelines somehow do not apply to you, then you're violating this point: * Use common sense all the time. -- Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOEVnYt9yFFB8-4==xkxbbp0ggns1oemvhwc7gdr1ed95gb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: On 9/21/2012 7:05 PM, T Elcor wrote: - Original Message - You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list I agree. I find this list to be very helpful but lately there seems to have been a lot of unnecessary hostility on the list. This is counter-productive as some users may get the impression that the list is hijacked by angry people who are just waiting for an opportunity to jump on anyone they (wrongly) perceive as lazy, incompetent or whatever. If someone deems a question stupid and below his level of expertise one can always ignore the question, as there is no obligation for anyone to answer any questions on this list. Perhaps someone else will give a simple answer to a simple/stupid question without any of the name calling. Read my original reply to the OP. I gave him the answer, in full detail, and a link to the page from where I copied it. I also derided him for his failure to make a cursory effort of his own. It isn't a stupid question. I've answered it many times on this list. But in most/all of those cases, those asking were noobs. Someone installing on a quad socket DL580 isn't a noob, certainly should not be a noob. Someone who should not be a noob asking a noob question is what prompted my derision. Again, anyone at a level where they're working or playing with a DL580 should have already known the answer, or been able to easily find it, especially given the ease with which this particular answer can be found. You've got this backwards. It's not beneath me to answer this question. It should, however, be beneath any self respecting OP at such a level to ask this in the first place without even Googling. I agree that the OP's question was ... perhaps unenlightened. However, I don't respond like a jerk to such questions. While answering the question simply and clearly isn't beneath you, undignifying yourself by responding in such an uncivilized manner *should* be beneath you. -- Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOEVnYsS=v3rznpbe5lheowrgjdgrkut9cgxzrzrjjn+bnm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/22/2012 2:38 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote: Stan violates these two points of the CoC: * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome. * Try not to flame; it is not polite. I violated neither. I told a lazy or incompetent OP that he is lazy or incompetent. Such a statement is both constructive and on topic, and not flame material. Hard truth may be uncomfortable or impolite for some people, but that != flaming. If sufficient numbers of users were to do what this OP did, the list would be clogged with noobie questions and become totally useless due to the msg volume. Please explain why you disagree with this logic, Christofer C. Bell. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505d7acb.4070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 02:38:54 -0500 Christofer C. Bell christofer.c.b...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Christofer, * Use common sense all the time. The trouble with that is, the use of the word common. IME, the sense it talks of is anything *but* common. :-( -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Life goes quick and it goes without warning Bombsite Boy - The Adverts signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/22/2012 2:45 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote: I agree that the OP's question was ... perhaps unenlightened. However, I don't respond like a jerk to such questions. While answering the question simply and clearly isn't beneath you, undignifying yourself by responding in such an uncivilized manner *should* be beneath you. The clue bat is uncivilized by design. If you're going to hit someone in the gut to get their full attention, and make sure what you're telling them sticks, wrapping the blunt instrument in a big pillow of cotton candy defeats the purpose, doesn't it, Christofer C. Bell? -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505d826e.8000...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 22/09/12 21:18, Stan Hoeppner wrote: The clue bat is uncivilized by design. If you're going to hit someone in the gut to get their full attention, and make sure what you're telling them sticks, wrapping the blunt instrument in a big pillow of cotton candy defeats the purpose, doesn't it, Christofer C. Bell? If you're going to hit someone in the gut to get their attention, you'd better be a good friend who knows they'll understand what you're about. Otherwise, you're committing assault. I know you meant it figuratively, but that just reduces the seriousness a bit; it doesn't turn it from a bad thing to a good thing. Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505da6cc.3060...@walnut.gen.nz
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:53:21 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. But that's you own opinion and being a personal thinking, do you think making such assertions is going to help anyone? Or are simply aimed to feed your selfish and completely lack of empathy standpoint? People in general, and especially those with systems of the caliber mentioned in this thread, should have enough experience, competence, and where-with-all to search before asking. Well, it's just a computer server, not a rocket nor something that requires for special or sophisticated training. Anyway, it's not your business to evaluate the knowledge and skills of the person who is going to manage the server nor what is going to be his job/role on that server, that's his boss decision. As I said in my opening, I was likely being harsh. But as Patton said, Give it to 'em loud and dirty. That way it sticks. The phrasing was said in a very different context, I'm afraid. It does not pertain to a user to user mailing list scope. Maybe this thread will remind people to do at least a little basic research before asking simple questions. When people ask such questions here, it is an insult to the list members, as the OP is simply being lazy, asking us to do the research for him/her. I would think most of us have better things to do than answer the same easy questions ad infinitum. We are seeing similar questions passing along every day in this same list and I find them appropiate to be asked here. Why not? There are not grades preset and there is no obligation in replying. Should something is not of your interest or you think is too much naive for you, then move to the next post and keep your personal thoughts out of the public arena. I know that your comments are always in this line, thus I'm not surpised, but maybe others are not aware of your peculiar writing style. It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. Care your attitude then, because you can be doing many assumptions that can be simply untrue (or totally biased) and you'll be hurting people wrongly and gratuitous with your comments which will be preserved in the mailing list archive. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k3ka3u$mv$6...@ger.gmane.org
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Thu, 2012-09-20 at 19:43 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: That he's at that stage now doesn't mean he's an idiot. Even if somebody should be an idiot, I wonder about the intolerance. Isn't it wanted that everybody should use FLOSS? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348232475.1108.58.camel@localhost.localdomain
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Thu, 2012-09-20 at 23:43 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: It draws about 400-500 watts continuously at idle, up to 900 at load. 99.999% of people will not tolerate this on the home electric bill. 99.9991% of the people don't have knowledge about this, their motto is more is better. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348232847.1108.62.camel@localhost.localdomain
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 20 September 2012 23:04, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Ok, thank you for answer, have a good day ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cae17a0xsuxv5xfr9fzxxyjcahr+ragyqom8z6y2daqjspxb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:04:50 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 9/20/2012 2:44 AM, Mauro wrote: Hello. I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? Thank you. This may be a bit harsh, but it's the glaring truth: your employer should fire you and hire someone qualified to do your job. The answer you seek is only one click deep from the Debian home page, under the Support heading on the right side of the page: (...) You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I know that your comments are always in this line, thus I'm not surpised, but maybe others are not aware of your peculiar writing style. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k3hvq5$oni$5...@ger.gmane.org
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/21/2012 10:06 AM, Camaleón wrote: Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list. We all can think whatever we want -and we can be wrong or right as we don't have all the details over the table- but it's rather discourteous to tell a user about what you estimate his/her skills are or aren't. That's simply out of place. I disagree. This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. People in general, and especially those with systems of the caliber mentioned in this thread, should have enough experience, competence, and where-with-all to search before asking. As I said in my opening, I was likely being harsh. But as Patton said, Give it to 'em loud and dirty. That way it sticks. Maybe this thread will remind people to do at least a little basic research before asking simple questions. When people ask such questions here, it is an insult to the list members, as the OP is simply being lazy, asking us to do the research for him/her. I would think most of us have better things to do than answer the same easy questions ad infinitum. I know that your comments are always in this line, thus I'm not surpised, but maybe others are not aware of your peculiar writing style. It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505cd3c1.4030...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer; it is the duty of others in the forum to respond politely and civilly. Second, mayhap you want others to treat you like a fetid, steaming dog turd; most of us don't want anyone treated like that. We don't like being bullied; rather, we wish to be treated with civility and respect, and we try to treat others in the same way. If one cannot respond with civility and respect, one shouldn't respond at all. Attitudes like yours drive people away from OSS. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201209211716.39796.neal.p.mur...@alum.wpi.edu
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/21/2012 4:16 PM, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer That's how it's supposed to work, but rarely does. Most people these days go straight for the mailing list hoping to save themselves the time/effort of doing research. This is what the OP did in this case, which shoots your argument down entirely. WRT my attitude driving people away from FLOSS, apparently you've never heard of a guy named Linus' Torvalds and his behavior. I'm absolutely tame compared to Linus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g People are flocking to FLOSS in record numbers due to Android devices. So your second argument, that people like me drive people away from FLOSS just went down in flames. There will likely be dozens more replies to this thread with the Lilliputians gang tackling me for being a bully. I guess forcefully presenting facts is now classified as bullying in 2012. I'd also predict Godwin's law will govern this thread in the not too distant future, as little people who lose arguments tend to throw the N word at the bully who simply proved them wrong. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505ce212.3030...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 09/21/2012 05:16 PM, Neal Murphy wrote: On Friday, September 21, 2012 04:53:21 PM Stan Hoeppner wrote: It's not writing style but attitude. My attitude is that people should be self reliant. Only when they search and can't find an answer should they ask on a mailing list. Especially in this case, when the answer is so damn easy to find, literally clicking one link on the Debian home page and reading the subsequent page. I agree with Stan. At least SOME effort to find the answer to their problem should be done before running to this list. In the distant past the usual reply was RTFM, but this List has mellowed in the past 4-5 years. I wholly disagree. First, when someone lowers himself to ask a question in a public forum, it is usually because she has been unable to find the answer; it is the duty of others in the forum to respond politely and civilly. Second, mayhap you want others to treat you like a fetid, steaming dog turd; most of us don't want anyone treated like that. We don't like being bullied; rather, we wish to be treated with civility and respect, and we try to treat others in the same way. That might be fine for a Forum but this is a list, not a Forum. If one cannot respond with civility and respect, one shouldn't respond at all. How would that help OSS? Attitudes like yours drive people away from OSS. I respect your opinion even though I don't agree with it. Wayne -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505ce4e4.7010...@gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
self-fulfilling prophecy, one can aim at Godwin's law ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348265101.1187.2.camel@localhost.localdomain
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/21/12 3:06 PM, Wayne Topa wrote: If one cannot respond with civility and respect, one shouldn't respond at all. How would that help OSS? I wasn't aware I had an obligation to help OSS in order to use it. The list exists to help people use the software, and not primarily to help the software use people. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505ce5c4.7060...@queernet.org
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
- Original Message - You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list I agree. I find this list to be very helpful but lately there seems to have been a lot of unnecessary hostility on the list. This is counter-productive as some users may get the impression that the list is hijacked by angry people who are just waiting for an opportunity to jump on anyone they (wrongly) perceive as lazy, incompetent or whatever. If someone deems a question stupid and below his level of expertise one can always ignore the question, as there is no obligation for anyone to answer any questions on this list. Perhaps someone else will give a simple answer to a simple/stupid question without any of the name calling. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348272303.17190.yahoomail...@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
- Original Message - From: Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Please see the Code of Conduct ( http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ) instead of inventing your own rules. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348273024.58612.yahoomail...@web121903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/21/2012 7:05 PM, T Elcor wrote: - Original Message - You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Stan, just my personal opinion but I think there's no need (and no gain) to say this on the list I agree. I find this list to be very helpful but lately there seems to have been a lot of unnecessary hostility on the list. This is counter-productive as some users may get the impression that the list is hijacked by angry people who are just waiting for an opportunity to jump on anyone they (wrongly) perceive as lazy, incompetent or whatever. If someone deems a question stupid and below his level of expertise one can always ignore the question, as there is no obligation for anyone to answer any questions on this list. Perhaps someone else will give a simple answer to a simple/stupid question without any of the name calling. Read my original reply to the OP. I gave him the answer, in full detail, and a link to the page from where I copied it. I also derided him for his failure to make a cursory effort of his own. It isn't a stupid question. I've answered it many times on this list. But in most/all of those cases, those asking were noobs. Someone installing on a quad socket DL580 isn't a noob, certainly should not be a noob. Someone who should not be a noob asking a noob question is what prompted my derision. Again, anyone at a level where they're working or playing with a DL580 should have already known the answer, or been able to easily find it, especially given the ease with which this particular answer can be found. You've got this backwards. It's not beneath me to answer this question. It should, however, be beneath any self respecting OP at such a level to ask this in the first place without even Googling. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505d095b.4080...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/21/2012 7:17 PM, T Elcor wrote: - Original Message - From: Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Please see the Code of Conduct ( http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ) instead of inventing your own rules. You're stepping into quicksand by trying to use the COC to disprove my statement above. Whether it's in the Debian list COC or not, it is universal across technical mailing lists, has been for decades, and is simply common sense. It's not spelled out because it's universally understand, or assumed to be. If there are enough folk like yourself maybe it should be added to the COC, at least for the -user or help oriented lists. The dev lists don't have this problem, obviously. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505d0f63.8000...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
T Elcor tel...@yahoo.com writes: - Original Message - From: Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com This list, as with most others, is not to be used as a primary technical support resource. People should be making at least a cursory effort to search for information before asking here. Please see the Code of Conduct ( http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ) instead of inventing your own rules. I am reading this in a Usenet newsgroup (linux.debian.user). A mailing list code of conduct is at best of peripheral relevance. If there is a portal to a mailing some place, it really doesn't make any difference to where I'm reading (and posting). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1bmx0iwz4g@pfeifferfamily.net
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
20.09.2012 09:44, Mauro: I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? AMD64. IA64 is for Itanium processors. You'd know if you had one. -- Regards mks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505acb6b.2040...@list-post.mks-mail.de
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 20 September 2012 09:53, Markus Schönhaber debian-u...@list-post.mks-mail.de wrote: 20.09.2012 09:44, Mauro: I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? AMD64. IA64 is for Itanium processors. You'd know if you had one. Ok, thank you, I have only Xeon processors. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAE17a0VDG2u=5pmenbrwaag_h31trj667a2gxc6w1jtog1v...@mail.gmail.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:44:35 +0200, Mauro wrote: I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? Thank you. The available architectures are detailed and explained here: http://www.debian.org/ports/index.en.html Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k3fcbl$ocp$9...@ger.gmane.org
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/20/2012 2:44 AM, Mauro wrote: Hello. I have a HP proliant DL580 G5 server with 4 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E7330 @ 2.40GHz processors. What architecture port I've to install, IA64 or AMD64? Thank you. This may be a bit harsh, but it's the glaring truth: your employer should fire you and hire someone qualified to do your job. The answer you seek is only one click deep from the Debian home page, under the Support heading on the right side of the page: http://www.debian.org/ports/ On this page we find: 64-bit PC, (amd64) First officially released with Debian 4.0. Port to the 64 bit AMD64 processors. The goal is to support both 32bit- and 64bit-userland on this architecture. This port supports AMD's 64-bit Opteron, Athlon and Sempron processors, and Intel's processors with EM64T support, including the Pentium D and various Xeon and Core2 series. Intel Itanium, IA-64 First officially released with Debian 3.0. This is a port to Intel's first 64-bit architecture. Note: this should not be confused with the latest Intel 64-bit extensions for Pentium 4 and Celeron processors, called EM64T; for these, see the AMD64 port. You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505b84f2.3070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 21/09/12 09:04, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Or having a bad day, or been dropped in the deep end by the employer, or any one of a number of things we don't know about. Suggesting google or debian.org or whatever is fine, but this is way over the top, IMHO. I'll assume _you're_ having a bad day :-) Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505b8d58.3020...@walnut.gen.nz
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/20/2012 4:40 PM, Richard Hector wrote: On 21/09/12 09:04, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Or having a bad day, or been dropped in the deep end by the employer, or any one of a number of things we don't know about. Suggesting google or debian.org or whatever is fine, but this is way over the top, IMHO. I'll assume _you're_ having a bad day :-) Not at all. That box is a couple of generations old, however, it cost over $10K USD when it was acquired, sans edu etc discounts. It was top of the line. Anyone working for an organization with that kind of budget, acquiring this caliber of hardware, should already know the basics of most, if not all, processor architectures commonly used with Linux, both CISC/RISC, and VLIW (EPIC). And if not, should be able to find it one click deep on the website without needing to ask here. IA-64 has been with us for just over a decade. x86-64/AMD64/EM64T have been with us for almost exactly a decade. This should be common knowledge by now, and especially so for someone working with such machines. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505bc1e8.2070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com writes: On 9/20/2012 4:40 PM, Richard Hector wrote: On 21/09/12 09:04, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You are either: 1. Horribly lazy 2. Incompetent Or having a bad day, or been dropped in the deep end by the employer, or any one of a number of things we don't know about. Suggesting google or debian.org or whatever is fine, but this is way over the top, IMHO. I'll assume _you're_ having a bad day :-) Not at all. That box is a couple of generations old, however, it cost over $10K USD when it was acquired, sans edu etc discounts. It was top of the line. Anyone working for an organization with that kind of budget, acquiring this caliber of hardware, should already know the basics of most, if not all, processor architectures commonly used with Linux, both CISC/RISC, and VLIW (EPIC). And if not, should be able to find it one click deep on the website without needing to ask here. IA-64 has been with us for just over a decade. x86-64/AMD64/EM64T have been with us for almost exactly a decade. This should be common knowledge by now, and especially so for someone working with such machines. Why do you assume he's doing it for work? If he said something about being an experienced sysadmin, I missed it. This could easily be a box he bought as the n'th owner or from ebay or something. Everybody has to start somewhere, and none of us knew what we were doing when we started (sort of by definition). That he's at that stage now doesn't mean he's an idiot. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1bhaqsywua@pfeifferfamily.net
Re: IA64 or AMD64?
On 9/20/2012 8:43 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Why do you assume he's doing it for work? If he said something about being an experienced sysadmin, I missed it. This could easily be a box he bought as the n'th owner or from ebay or something. The noise level of a DL580 is 52 dBA. 99.999% of people will not tolerate this noise level, continuously, in their home, unless it resides in the basement or a dedicated compute room. It draws about 400-500 watts continuously at idle, up to 900 at load. 99.999% of people will not tolerate this on the home electric bill. Additionally, it requires a 4 post rack/cabinet. 99.9% if people don't have nor will they ever install a 4 post rack in their home. Those that would have this in the home are hardware freaks. I have some experience here. Note my email domain. Hardware freaks will know everything about such a box before they acquire it for home use. Thus, it's very unlikely that this is a home use scenario. Everybody has to start somewhere snip Yes, but people don't start with a quad socket DL580. This is analogous to learning to drive in a Porsche 911 turbo. I doubt this was a 2nd hand purchase, but if it was, and if it's in his home, then the OP has more money than grey matter, and simply likes acquiring expensive toys that he doesn't know how to use. Regardless of all that above, he could have found the answer more quickly and more easily via Google or simply hitting the home page and clicking the ports link. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505bf08a.6060...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: ia64 et AMD64
J ai trouvé ma reponse : EM64T (Xeon, Pentium 4 6xx), AMD64 (Opteron, Athlon 64), IA64 (Itanium) kohzak a écrit : Bonjour à tous Je voudrai connaitre la difference entre ia64 et Amd64 car prevoyant d acheter un athlon 64 socket 939 pour monter un serveur, j aimerai savoir quel debian-installer prendre. J aimerai aussi savoir si vous avez des liens pour comprendre comment fonctionne un system 64 bits et comment gérer les appli 32 et 64 bits entre elle. Merci :) -- Pensez à lire la FAQ de la liste avant de poser une question : http://wiki.debian.net/?DebianFrench Pensez à rajouter le mot ``spam'' dans vos champs From et Reply-To: To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re : ia64 et AMD64
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le 10.07.2005 15:16:52, kohzak a écrit : Bonjour à tous Je voudrai connaitre la difference entre ia64 et Amd64 car prevoyant d acheter un athlon 64 socket 939 pour monter un serveur, j aimerai savoir quel debian-installer prendre. Il faut prendre amd64. ia64 est l'architecture Intel Itanium. Ça n'a rien à voir. Voyez https://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html pour plus d'informations. J aimerai aussi savoir si vous avez des liens pour comprendre comment fonctionne un system 64 bits et comment gérer les appli 32 et 64 bits entre elle. Merci :) Jean-Luc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC0SmzXit3lz9m7V4RAl0YAKD2bDKbwuZ4MV72oiaIgoH0vZEtggCghvV9 j5JRImkScFMy9x7qywSZRGA= =tuY/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
