Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 08:45:02 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > have that changed. Have what changed? GNOME is not checked; easily verified by running 'tasksel'. The premise is questionable. > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > the d-i developers would have done something about it. A sensible view, IMO. This menu has been in place for at least 15 years. A couple of users who cannot sort out how to use it is hardly a basis for altering it. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 07:30:20 (-0400), Kenneth Parker wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU > > wrote: > > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > > have that changed. > > > > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > > the d-i developers would have done something about it. None of the desktops is checked on my screen shots, so wouldn't you have to check GNOME before you unchecked it? > > [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm > > not the target audience of the installer. > > I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text > Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually > xfce. Which ISO? > (Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities). (and sometimes Print.) Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > have that changed. > > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > the d-i developers would have done something about it. > > [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm > not the target audience of the installer. > > Kind regards, > Andrei > -- > http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually xfce. (Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities). Kenneth Parker
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to have that changed. On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise the d-i developers would have done something about it. [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm not the target audience of the installer. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 9/19/2020 6:12 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of different options here. Most Windows users are completely shocked by the notion a computer can do anything but browse the internet and play solitaire. To them, computer = video monitor = internet. Frankly, I could not possibly care less what Windows or clueless Mac users find surprising. If soneone wants to cater to them, then that is fine (I suppose), but don't make that a problem for those of us who actually make our computers work for us. "New" and "Stupid" are not the same thing, nor are "long time user" and "Stupid" necessarily mutually exclusive. Best to keep it as simple as possible. I doubt I could ever possibly disagree more. Make it FLEXIBLE, not simple. Make it POWERFUL, not limited. Make it CONFIGURABLE, not paternalistic. Make it clear and of extreme depth, not infantile. Give the user / admin ABSOLUTE CONTROL. Maintainers and developers should be making as few decisions as possible, which means offering every possible alternative.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first > > option > > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can > > be > > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) > > Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if > you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not > so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have > unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all > Recommends?). A user wants X with all its recommended packages? Then don't use this technique. > > I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, > > along > > with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. > > (When > > I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight > > desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr" > > In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users > coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of > different options here. Indeed. > Best to keep it as simple as possible. Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first > option > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all Recommends?). > I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, > along > with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. > (When > I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight > desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr" In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of different options here. Best to keep it as simple as possible. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
rhkra...@gmail.com writes: > On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote: >> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: >> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, >> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to >> > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. > >> The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. >> The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. >> Is there a better way of doing it? >> >> > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. > >> Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" >> and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first > option > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) And in that case, if users insist on this possibility, it would be much more useful to have this entry *always* install X only even without the "no recommends" option. -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote: > On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, > > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to > > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. ... > The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. > The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. > Is there a better way of doing it? > > > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. > ... > Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" > and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you have select that in the other place you mentioned.) I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote: > > The function of the menu is crystal clear. > > > > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. > > > > Unticking the option gets the user nothing. > > > > Start with that. > > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. I don't really want to nit-pick but, when the menu is presented, only "Debian desktop environment" is selected. A user who wonders what it provides is free to read the available documentation (Installation Guide, wiki etc) to resolve the mystery. When I have a Bash issue I often find a bit of reading clarifies matters :). The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. Is there a better way of doing it? > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. I'll take that to be rhetorical. Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
Thank you! On Friday, September 18, 2020 08:12:34 AM Brian wrote: > It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 04:36:08 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while
> > > taking
> > > a break from yardwork):
> > >
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be
> > > installed
> > > if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
> > >
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work
> > > without one
> > > of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
> > > * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> > > provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
> >
> > All three of these questions have been answered twice.
> >
>
> If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
> questions were not conveyed to readers.
> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
> if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :
Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop |
task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop |
task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop
It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends):
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all,
xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base
> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
> of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends).
> * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
For task-mate-desktop:
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, mate-desktop-environment,
lightdm
It is not possible to install only X.
I hope this helps in the exploration of the task selection menu and the
search for leanness.
--
Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote: > The function of the menu is crystal clear. > > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. > > Unticking the option gets the user nothing. > > Start with that. Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
Marco Möller writes: > On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: >> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: >> >>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. >>> >>> YES, Exactly this! >> >> That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user >> to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective >> that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after >> the situation has been explained to you? >> > > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the > installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would > happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further > explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what > is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would > prevent misunderstandings. > The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for > letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical > desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete > version including additionally recommended packages is preferred, > would be perfect. > > I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be > able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would > also know how to install their system using apt manually on the > console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this > menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, > and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to > select from. > > Best regards, Marco! +1 -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/17/2020 03:36 PM, Marco Möller wrote: On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. YES, Exactly this! That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after the situation has been explained to you? The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would prevent misunderstandings. The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect. I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from. Best regards, Marco! +1 *Thank You*
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/17/2020 04:44 PM, Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.
YES, Exactly this!
That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?
I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
a break from yardwork):
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
All three of these questions have been answered twice.
If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
questions were not conveyed to readers.
P.S. Note a repetition?
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote: > > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > > the situation has been explained to you? > > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while > taking > a break from yardwork): > >* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed > if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...? > >* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one > of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)? > >* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop > provides that is not included with any of the DEs? All three of these questions have been answered twice. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 22:36:31 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: > > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > > > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > > > > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > > the situation has been explained to you? > > > > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the > installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by > their selection in this menu. The function of the menu is crystal clear. Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. Unticking the option gets the user nothing. Start with that. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. YES, Exactly this! That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after the situation has been explained to you? The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would prevent misunderstandings. The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect. I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from. Best regards, Marco!
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote: > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > the situation has been explained to you? I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking a break from yardwork): * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...? * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)? * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > 1. remove the check-box. > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > YES, Exactly this! That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after the situation has been explained to you? -- Brian
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. YES, Exactly this! Best regards, Marco.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 03:54:57 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > Brian writes: > > > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > > > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > > > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > > > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > > > > does know what the default is. > > > > > > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > > > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > > > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > > > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. > > > > > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel > > > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think > > > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes > > > to check according to what they want. > > > > > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > > > presented to the user? > > > > No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software > > installed that offers its full functionality. > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: >1. remove the check-box. >2. rephrase it as "Cho[o]se a Debian desktop environment". Without considering Brian's point as to the wisdom of (1), (2) doesn't allow for zero, or two upwards. (IOW we have a set of checkboxes, not radio buttons. >3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > The more sophisticated > > users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent > > Recommends from being installed. > > "easily" ??? > Probably after first time you have success ;/ I recall your difficulty back in October, but that was just accidentally missing out the "install" command. For others, the first hit for "recommends" in man apt-get is: --no-install-recommends Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends which covers the command line method and the configuration file method. > > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the > > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. > > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at > > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps > > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? Felix just reminded me of a paragraph that I probably read about ten years ago and promptly forgot about, as it ends with "This option should therefore only be used by very experienced users." That statement might answer my last question. Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 08:23:50 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > 1. remove the check-box. A user now cannot install task-desktop alone. In other words, he would be unable to install just X using tasksel. > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". The removed option is not about installing *a* Debian desktop environment. It is about installing Debian desktop environment; that is, installlng task-desktop. This proposal completely alters the meaning of the present text and works against the purpose of this portion the menu. > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. Suggested and countered in a number of previous posts. > +1 -- that seems much clearer to me It would be useful to know what needs clarifying. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/16/2020 07:23 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. +1 -- that seems much clearer to me (Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-) If I had my "druthers" I'd put it by Mate. But there are some windmills that I don't tilt with ;/
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > 1. remove the check-box. > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > 3. add a default check by GNOME. +1 -- that seems much clearer to me (Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-)
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: Brian writes: On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer does know what the default is. Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes to check according to what they want. Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option presented to the user? No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software installed that offers its full functionality. Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: 1. remove the check-box. 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". 3. add a default check by GNOME. The more sophisticated users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent Recommends from being installed. "easily" ??? Probably after first time you have success ;/ But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Ma, 15 sep 20, 18:50:57, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > > presented to the user? > > No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software > installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated > users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent > Recommends from being installed. +1 > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? For installs small enough to benefit from this I generally use debootstrap/mmdebstrap. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
David Wright composed on 2020-09-15 18:50 (UTC-0500): > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? This the tail of basically the same installer cmdline I've been using for Debian for several years, Bullseye the last: netcfg/get_nameservers=8.8.4.4 netcfg/confirm_static=true tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > Brian writes: > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > > does know what the default is. > > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes > to check according to what they want. > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > presented to the user? No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent Recommends from being installed. But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 +0200, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > Brian writes: > > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > > does know what the default is. > > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes > to check according to what they want. A user sees a dialog with only only Debian desktop environment selected. Activating this gets him what is displayed. Nothing ambiguous there. A user deselects the only ticked entry and activates the choice. I think we can agree that a desktop is not installed. Another user deselects the only ticked entry and ticks MATE instead. He expects MATE to be installed. Where's the ambiguity? > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > presented to the user? No. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
Brian writes: > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer > does know what the default is. > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes to check according to what they want. Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option presented to the user? -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote: > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > > the way it is makes sense. > > My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't > actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the > menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default > happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted > up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to > be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized > images (no longer supported), the default could be something else. The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer does know what the default is. > I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if > "Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away. > Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want. Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked, a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote: > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > the way it is makes sense. My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized images (no longer supported), the default could be something else. I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if "Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away. Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want. If we're going to complain about the installer, the very top of my list would be "put the default sources.list lines in place, commented out, even when there's no Internet connection during the install". Users who come into IRC without a working sources.list file because they installed with the official image on a machine with proprietary wifi always have to be hand-held through getting the correct lines into sources.list so that apt(-get) will work.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 13:47:04 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote: > > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog > > > > > > > box as > > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > > (or > > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change > > > > > > accepted. > > > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just > > > > press enter > > > > given a YES, no > > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > > dialog caters for this situation. > > > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which > > case the way it is makes sense. > > But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion. That is only because they do not think it through. "I do not want Debian desktop environment" they say. That's fine; reject having it; untick it. Now nothing is selected. That's ok. A user now gets nothing. Who would argue with that action if that is what is required? But "I want Mate" is the next request. Ok, tick it and that is what the user will get. Where's the problem? -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 +0100, mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the > > > > > > options > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog > > > > > > box as > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > (or > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press > > > enter > > > given a YES, no > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > dialog caters for this situation. > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case > the way it is makes sense. Debian desktop environment gives a user what the present default desktop is. At the present, it gives exactly the same as choosing "Gnome. If the default desktop was Xfce, a user would get Xfce with Debian desktop environment. This would be the same as choosing "Xfce". -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the > > > > > > options > > > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog > > > > > > box as > > > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > > > (or > > > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > > > > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just > > > press enter > > > given a YES, no > > > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > > > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" > > > > What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present > > dialog caters for this situation. > > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which > case the way it is makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion. To make sense of Marco's suggestion, it would require a Yes/No radio button for *any* DE installation. Yes would be preselected. There would also be a series of checkboxes, with GNOME preselected. Other DEs could be checked/unchecked if desired. When No is pressed, the checkboxes would become greyed, but not lose their selection status (so that pressing No & Yes has no effect). I'm not familiar enough with curses to know how to implement this. Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote: On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > follows? -- > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > (or > > tasksel?). > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter given a YES, no choice. The dialogue should probably be something like "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present dialog caters for this situation. Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case the way it is makes sense. -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote: > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > > > follows? -- > > > > > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > > > [ ] ... Xfce > > > > [ ] ... KDE > > > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > > > [ ] ... MATE > > > > [ ] ... LXDE > > > > > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer > > > (or > > > tasksel?). > > > > > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. > > > > What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? > > I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter > given a YES, no > choice. The dialogue should probably be something like > "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present dialog caters for this situation. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote: On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > follows? -- > > Debian desktop environments: > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > [ ] ... Xfce > [ ] ... KDE > [ ] ... Cinnamon > [ ] ... MATE > [ ] ... LXDE You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or tasksel?). Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter given a YES, no choice. The dialogue should probably be something like "If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed" -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > > follows? -- > > > > Debian desktop environments: > > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > > [ ] ... Xfce > > [ ] ... KDE > > [ ] ... Cinnamon > > [ ] ... MATE > > [ ] ... LXDE > > You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or > tasksel?). > > Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry? -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as > follows? -- > > Debian desktop environments: > [ ] ... GNOME (default) > [ ] ... Xfce > [ ] ... KDE > [ ] ... Cinnamon > [ ] ... MATE > [ ] ... LXDE You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or tasksel?). Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
Marco Möller writes: > On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote: >> So what would your version of an installer do when presented with: >> >>│ [*] Debian desktop environment │ >>│ [ ] ... GNOME │ >>│ [ ] ... Xfce │ >>│ [ ] ... KDE│ >>│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │ >>│ [ ] ... MATE │ >>│ [ ] ... LXDE │ > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is > redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the > second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the > first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became > anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a > behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly > not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection > "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this > mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already > something like network manager and other network managing tools or a > tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe > some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading > and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and > therefore did unselect the second line initially. > Best regards, Marco. I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as follows? -- Debian desktop environments: [ ] ... GNOME (default) [ ] ... Xfce [ ] ... KDE [ ] ... Cinnamon [ ] ... MATE [ ] ... LXDE -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 22:40, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 09/10/2020 01:11 AM, David wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote: > >> The manpage > >> [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes > >> multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link. > >> Where do I find it? > > Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read > > it directly from the text file > >/usr/share/aptitude/README > I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/ > I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html] > which appears to be an HTML version of the "readme". > I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the > display to accommodate some vision problems. On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 at 00:28, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > apt show aptitude-doc-en As Andrei hints, the HTML version that you prefer is also packaged for Debian so you can install it locally by installing the package aptitude-doc-en. The plain text version displayed by the Help menu of the curses version of aptitude is installed by the aptitude-common package.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 2020-09-09 14:27, Richard Owlett wrote: My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the "Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends" I suppose if you were *that* concerned you could install a basic system and install everything from sources. What that "basic system" would contain I don't really know. But that's what the nice people at Debian do so you don't have to. mick -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:44:26PM +0100, Brian wrote: On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote: People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience. I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment" means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not think this is nit-picking. Maybe not, but my point is that you use the task selections to get a bunch of software, and it's going to err on the side of giving you too much. If getting stuff you don't want is not acceptable, just don't use the tasks because they're the wrong tool for whatever you're doing. If getting stuff you don't want is acceptable, then it really doesn't matter if you get an extra gnome, right?
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 19:34:24 (+0200), Marco Möller wrote: > On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote: > > On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote: […] > > > > You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all > > > > specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...) > > > > but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment" > > > > then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and > > > > installed. > > > > > > I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team > > > likely considers that a feature. > > > > So what would your version of an installer do when presented with: > > > >│ [*] Debian desktop environment │ > >│ [ ] ... GNOME │ > >│ [ ] ... Xfce │ > >│ [ ] ... KDE│ > >│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │ > >│ [ ] ... MATE │ > >│ [ ] ... LXDE │ > > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is > redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the > second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not imag[in]e what the > first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became > anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a > behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly > not selected. OTOH it makes a lot of sense to a user, new to linux, who knows they want to try KDE as their desktop, say, because they've read about it somewhere. If they click on KDE, that's what they get. Were the d-i to have already selected GNOME when this person clicked on KDE, they would get both. Or, if you treat the list like a ballot, the d-i keeps the default up its sleeve (for it has to install *some* DE), but it doesn't try to influence the user's choice unfairly. You can argue this any way you like. Hardly a "bug". > It is especially annoying if you did this selection > "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this > mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already > something like network manager and other network managing tools or a > tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe > some other cute utilities. Eh? > But I ended up with looong time downloading > and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid If you're *that* concerned, try reading the Installation Guide first: NOTE The “Desktop environment” task will install a graphical desktop environment. By default, debian-installer installs the Gnome desktop environment. It is possible to interactively select a different desktop environment during the instal- lation. It is also possible to install multiple desktops, but some combinations of desktop may not be co-installable. > and > therefore did unselect the second line initially. Are you saying that the second line (GNOME) was selected by default? (Note that my two screen shots are taken from different point releases: the (snipped) tasksel output was copied just today, whereas the screen extract quoted above is 10 months old, being from the 10.2 d-i.) Cheers, David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that > > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant > > with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line > > because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might > > contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully > > installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which > > makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is > > especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or > > expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey, > > maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network > > manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of > > enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute > > utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a > > full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did > > unselect the second line initially. > > People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the > software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what > gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience. I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment" means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not think this is nit-picking. I do not agree with Marco Möller that the first line is redundant, but, if it specified that the Debian desktop environment was Xfce, it is possible it would give some clarity. OTOH, if it was decided not to have a default desktop, the first line could go. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote: I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did unselect the second line initially. People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/10/2020 12:34 PM, Marco Möller wrote: I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did unselect the second line initially. Yepp ;/
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote:
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.
I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.
No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was
a recent thread where someone stated that option not available
when installing the system. More when I wake up.
Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user
to the apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation
by installing the packages which you need.
*ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/
In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative
is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
I take it you agree, ten.
You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software
bundle selection menu which you have seen during the initial
installation.
I don't follow what you are trying to say there.
In words of several syllables, you could call "tasksel" again:
$ tasksel --list-tasks
u desktop Debian desktop environment
u gnome-desktop GNOME
u xfce-desktop Xfce
u kde-desktop KDE Plasma
u cinnamon-desktop Cinnamon
u mate-desktop MATE
u lxde-desktop LXDE
u lxqt-desktop LXQt
u web-serverweb server
i print-server print server
i ssh-serverSSH server
u laptoplaptop
$
… if you want to use the software bundle selection menu
(which you have seen during the initial installation):
┌───┤ [!] Software selection
├┐
│
│
│ At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the
system │
│ to your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following
│
│ predefined collections of software.
│
│
│
│ Choose software to install:
│
│
│
│ [ ] Debian desktop environment
│
│ [ ] ... GNOME
│
│ [ ] ... Xfce
│
│ [ ] ... KDE
│
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon
│
│ [ ] ... MATE
│
│ [ ] ... LXDE
│
│ [ ] web server
│
│ [*] print server
│
│ [*] SSH server
│
│ [*] standard system utilities
│
│
│
│
│
│
│
└─┘
So I might call tasksel to install a web server if I forgot to check
it when I ran the installer.
You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
installed.
I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.
So what would your version of an installer do when presented with:
│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
> > On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > > > On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> > > > > > {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
> > > > > packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
> > > > > side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends
> > > > > and
> > > > > then complaining about missing functionality.
> > > >
> > > > I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
> > > > Depends:.
> > >
> > > No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was
> > > a recent thread where someone stated that option not available
> > > when installing the system. More when I wake up.
> > >
> > Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
> > configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
> > predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user
> > to the apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation
> > by installing the packages which you need.
>
> *ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/
>
> In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative
> is to leave unchecked all options on the
> > > "Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
> > > to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
I take it you agree, ten.
> > You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software
> > bundle selection menu which you have seen during the initial
> > installation.
>
> I don't follow what you are trying to say there.
In words of several syllables, you could call "tasksel" again:
$ tasksel --list-tasks
u desktop Debian desktop environment
u gnome-desktop GNOME
u xfce-desktop Xfce
u kde-desktop KDE Plasma
u cinnamon-desktop Cinnamon
u mate-desktop MATE
u lxde-desktop LXDE
u lxqt-desktop LXQt
u web-serverweb server
i print-server print server
i ssh-serverSSH server
u laptoplaptop
$
… if you want to use the software bundle selection menu
(which you have seen during the initial installation):
┌───┤ [!] Software selection
├┐
│
│
│ At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the system
│
│ to your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following
│
│ predefined collections of software.
│
│
│
│ Choose software to install:
│
│
│
│ [ ] Debian desktop environment
│
│ [ ] ... GNOME
│
│ [ ] ... Xfce
│
│ [ ] ... KDE
│
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon
│
│ [ ] ... MATE
│
│ [ ] ... LXDE
│
│ [ ] web server
│
│ [*] print server
│
│ [*] SSH server
│
│ [*] standard system utilities
│
│
│
│
│
│
│
└─┘
So I might call tasksel to install a web server if I forgot to check
it when I ran the installer.
> > You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
> > specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
> > but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
> > then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
> > installed.
>
> I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
> likely considers that a feature.
So what would your version
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Jo, 10 sep 20, 07:40:19, Richard Owlett wrote: > > I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/ > I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html] which > appears to be an HTML version of the "readme". > > I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the > display to accommodate some vision problems. apt show aptitude-doc-en Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.
I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.
No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a
recent thread where someone stated that option not available when
installing the system. More when I wake up.
Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user to the
apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation by installing
the packages which you need.
*ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/
In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative is
to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software bundle
selection menu which you have seen during the initial installation.
I don't follow what you are trying to say there.
You
should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all specifically
named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...) but still selecting
the top entry "Debian desktop environment" then a full blown Gnome
environment will be downloaded and installed.
I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.
You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you that
a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this bundle
package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might appear other
bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through the listed package
names for getting ahead some idea of all packages which would become
installed.
I think Greg has pointed me in the right direction when he suggested
" aptitude search '~pStandard' " to deal with another aspect of my
problem. Today's assignment is reading the user manual.
Thanks.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/10/2020 01:11 AM, David wrote: On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote: The manpage [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link. Where do I find it? Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read it directly from the text file /usr/share/aptitude/README Thank you. I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/ I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html] which appears to be an HTML version of the "readme". I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the display to accommodate some vision problems.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 10/09/20 6:11 pm, David wrote: > On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote: > >> The manpage >> [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes >> multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link. > >> Where do I find it? > > Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read > it directly from the text file > /usr/share/aptitude/README > Huh. That seems an odd location. I would have expected that in /usr/share/doc/aptitude - but that has a link to the above. Richard
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.
I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.
No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a recent
thread where someone stated that option not available when installing
the system. More when I wake up.
Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user to the
apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation by installing
the packages which you need.
You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software bundle
selection menu which you have seen during the initial installation. You
should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all specifically
named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...) but still selecting
the top entry "Debian desktop environment" then a full blown Gnome
environment will be downloaded and installed.
You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you that
a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this bundle
package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might appear other
bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through the listed package
names for getting ahead some idea of all packages which would become
installed.
Good Luck! Marco.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.
I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.
No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a recent
thread where someone stated that option not available when installing
the system. More when I wake up.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote: > The manpage > [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes > multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link. > Where do I find it? Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read it directly from the text file /usr/share/aptitude/README
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/09/2020 12:06 PM, Brian wrote: On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 09:35:14 -0500, David Wright wrote: On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: 3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do I run apt-get before closing the installer? As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been "finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs, or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be patient and let the d-i "close". The OP is experienced with preseeding and is aware of late_command. All he has to do is apply his knowledge. Have not used preseeding for more than a year. Don't recall ever having used "late" command. Quick look at docs doesn't suggest it will solve problem. When I wake up will read more closely.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/09/2020 10:30 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: On 09/09/2020 09:58 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote: On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a priority “standard”? [2] Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard. You'll need to set --admindir appropriately. aptitude search '~pStandard' Thank you. That was what I needed. I can see myself using most of them. Some the truncated description is tantalizing enough that I'll will investigate them further. The manpage [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link. Where do I find it?
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On 09/09/2020 09:58 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote: On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a priority “standard”? [2] Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard. You'll need to set --admindir appropriately. aptitude search '~pStandard' Thank you. That was what I needed. I can see myself using most of them. Some the truncated description is tantalizing enough that I'll will investigate them further.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >
> > 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> > {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
>
> If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
> packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
> side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
> then complaining about missing functionality.
I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.
--
Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 09:35:14 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > > > 3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do > >I run apt-get before closing the installer? > > As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the > regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been > "finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs > that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs, > or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be > patient and let the d-i "close". The OP is experienced with preseeding and is aware of late_command. All he has to do is apply his knowledge. -- Brian.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
> 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.
Please do file bugs anyway if you are aware of such cases (Depends
instead of Recommends), even if it might end up as 'wontfix'.
> 1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
>specific box {primarily Mate}?
As far as I recall this was answered in great detail in the thread about
tasks.
Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > > 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a > >priority “standard”? [2] > > Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard. > You'll need to set --admindir appropriately. aptitude search '~pStandard'
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
> functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
> large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
>
> That works very well *most* of the time.
>
> But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{
>
> Problems include:
> 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
I assume you're just talking about the installer again when you say this.
> 2. Very large undesired packages {e.g. LibreOffice}
Don't install them, then.
> 3. Applications cluttering menus for which one uses a better
> alternative. {I prefer SeaMonkey over Firefox}
AFAICT you can define menus to contain whatever you like, can't you?
> My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
> "Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
> be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
If that floats your boat. Why not just remove the packages you can't abide
when the installer finishes its job, the job it was designed to do in a
simple and reliable manner.
> MY QUESTIONS
>
> 1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
>specific box {primarily Mate}?
You add two small items to the hundreds of occasions on which you've
installed Debian. First, install with MATE checked. Second, install
without it checked. (Or in the opposite order.) Compare the output
of dpkg -l from the two installations.
Of course, you'll say that you only want to know which packages the
installer specifically demanded, and not those brought in as dependencies.
In which case, read the source of the d-i itself. As you run it so often,
it might be worth perusing in its own right, just for interest's sake.
After all---If retirement is not for learning, what use is it?
> 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
>priority “standard”? [2]
Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard.
You'll need to set --admindir appropriately.
> 3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
>I run apt-get before closing the installer?
As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the
regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been
"finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs
that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs,
or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be
patient and let the d-i "close".
> [1] Figure 4.13 of
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.installation-steps.en.html
> [2] 6.3.5.2. Selecting and Installing Software
> https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s03.html.en
Cheers,
David.
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu
Standard advice from me: use the expert install (available under "Advanced
options", I think, from the standard netinst / DVD .iso image. Uncheck all
except standard install (and perhaps SSH server) - no X, no desktop
environment. That gives you a bare, text mode install with < 400 packages
in total. Build on from there. You can drop to a single user shell from the
installer to install extra packages if you really must - or you can just
reboot and use apt/apt-get to check and see what's involved at that point.
If you use wifi - you mght want to add at least any required firmware and
nmcli to get you started.[For myself, I always try to make the first
install be at the end of a cable to avoid wifi problems.]
It does need you to be command line capable. If you really have no
bandwidth, it might mean you need to buy DVDs to bootstrap the system. Be
aware, as you go, that an install from DVD media is only correct up to and
including the first boot - there will always be updates to install after
the first OS install.
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:27 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
> IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
> functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
> large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
>
> That works very well *most* of the time.
>
> But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{
>
> Problems include:
>1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
>2. Very large undesired packages {e.g. LibreOffice}
>3. Applications cluttering menus for which one uses a better
> alternative. {I prefer SeaMonkey over Firefox}
>
>
> My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
> "Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
> be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
>
>
> MY QUESTIONS
>
> 1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
> specific box {primarily Mate}?
> 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
> priority “standard”? [2]
> 3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
> I run apt-get before closing the installer?
>
> TIA
>
>
>
>
> [1] Figure 4.13 of
>
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.installation-steps.en.html
> [2] 6.3.5.2. Selecting and Installing Software
> https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s03.html.en
>
>
>
