Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote: On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote: The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find irrelevant to my interests Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious amounts of irrelevance and outright false information. This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little interest in. And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!" However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite: Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of the messages' content. For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh. You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here, the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors involved there. I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it would be so easy to see. It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend to promote a volume-wins approach, You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.) and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that they're reading nonsense. When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain something like this: Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying, Curious Human. We are rooting for you! Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the usual suspects happens. My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its initial message. Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted? Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro mailing list: %<--- 18159 Thursday glenn green(6K) . UNUBSCRIBE ... ............ [1] 18192 Yesterday fjd (7K) . | \-Alpine was [2] 18193 Yesterday Bret Busby (8K) . ||-Re: Alpi [6] 18194 5:55 fjd (7K) || |-Re: Al [7] 18195 6:11 fjd (8K) || \-Re: Al [3] 18196 Yesterday Jeffrey Walton (7K) . |\-Re: Alpi [4] 18197 Yesterday Greg Wooledge (5K) . | \-Re: Al [5] 18198 2:41 Bret Busby (9K) . |\-Re: 18199 Yesterday David Wright (6K) | \-Re --->% Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list. [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning the linux distro called Alpine Linux. [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view is illuminating. [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct link once again. <-- This
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Jeffrey Walton wrote: On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson wrote: [...] Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning the linux distro called Alpine Linux. [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view is illuminating. [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html [...] (The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.) What would you have me say? Greg made the correction. I laid out the details of the process leading to the three-car miscommunication pileup because it serves as a handy illustrative example, in response to a question about whether knowledge of thread structure could affect participant decisions. Description, not prescription. I'm not here to tell consenting adults what to do. Do you really need more fodder from me? Nope. For my part I am fully up to speed. But have you noticed the other fellow in this thread, who is now calling me a malicious liar for giving you all the credit, and openly fantasising about how underground debian justice-league ninjas are about to break into my house, delete my account, and swap the taps in my shower? Looks like I'm in for a real Amélie Poulain job, it does. But the joke's on him; I get the taps confused every time anyways, so at worst I won't notice a thing. But I'll give you what you want... I'm not a priest. And, just for the record since you seem to have read me otherwise, I happen to think everyone's behavior so far has been pretty normal human behavior, given reasonable assumptions about what each knew at the time of their respective contributions. The sheer normality of it is what makes it a good example, and perfect comedy. I sincerely apologize for posting an incorrect link to an Alpine mailing list. I am so sorry I troubled you for it. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for the transgression, and the inconvenience I caused to all members of the list. I welcome your evident sarcasm here as a sign that we both agree that the miscommunication event in question was a very normal one. -- Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures. -- Vladimir Putin
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote: Hello, On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote: The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find irrelevant to my interests Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious amounts of irrelevance and outright false information. This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little interest in. And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!" However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite: Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of the messages' content. For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh. You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here, the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors involved there. I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it would be so easy to see. It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend to promote a volume-wins approach, You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.) and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that they're reading nonsense. When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain something like this: Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying, Curious Human. We are rooting for you! Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the usual suspects happens. My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its initial message. Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted? Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro mailing list: %<-- 18159 Thursday glenn green (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE ... ...... ...... [1] 18192 Yesterday fjd (7K) . | \-Alpine was [2] 18193 Yesterday Bret Busby(8K) . | |-Re: Alpi [6] 18194 5:55 fjd (7K) | | |-Re: Al [7] 18195 6:11 fjd (8K) | | \-Re: Al [3] 18196 Yesterday Jeffrey Walton(7K) . | \-Re: Alpi [4] 18197 Yesterday Greg Wooledge (5K) . | \-Re: Al [5] 18198 2:41 Bret Busby(9K) . | \-Re: 18199 Yesterday David Wright (6K) | \-Re -->% Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list. [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning the linux distro called Alpine Linux. [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view is illuminating. [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct link once again. <-- This
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson wrote: > [...] > Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning > the linux distro called Alpine Linux. > [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html > > Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they > have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view > is illuminating. > [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html > [...] > (The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.) What would you have me say? Greg made the correction. Do you really need more fodder from me? But I'll give you what you want... I sincerely apologize for posting an incorrect link to an Alpine mailing list. I am so sorry I troubled you for it. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for the transgression, and the inconvenience I caused to all members of the list. Jeff
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote: >> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's >> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find >> irrelevant to my interests > > Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help > against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious > amounts of irrelevance and outright false information. This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little interest in. And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!" However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite: Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of the messages' content. For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh. > You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here, > the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors > involved there. I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it would be so easy to see. > It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend > to promote a volume-wins approach, You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.) > and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily > the experience to know that they're reading nonsense. When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain something like this: Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying, Curious Human. We are rooting for you! > Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should > invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid > a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the > usual suspects happens. My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its initial message. > Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that > everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to > unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently > managing email but still posts as they posted? Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro mailing list: %<-- 18159 Thursday glenn green (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE ... ...... ...... [1] 18192 Yesterday fjd (7K) . | \-Alpine was [2] 18193 Yesterday Bret Busby(8K) . | |-Re: Alpi [6] 18194 5:55 fjd (7K) | | |-Re: Al [7] 18195 6:11 fjd (8K) | | \-Re: Al [3] 18196 Yesterday Jeffrey Walton(7K) . | \-Re: Alpi [4] 18197 Yesterday Greg Wooledge (5K) . | \-Re: Al [5] 18198 2:41 Bret Busby(9K) . | \-Re: 18199 Yesterday David Wright (6K) | \-Re -->% Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list. [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning the linux distro called Alpine Linux. [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view is illuminating. [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct link once again. <-- This person, it would
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
Hello, On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote: > The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's > threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find > irrelevant to my interests Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious amounts of irrelevance and outright false information. You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here, the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors involved there. It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend to promote a volume-wins approach, and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that they're reading nonsense. Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the usual suspects happens. Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted? Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > [...] > No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you > are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong. > > Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386 Yeah, some threads refuse to die. Some folks just won't let things go. Other folks just ignore what they are told, which causes everyone to repeat themselves. And then there's the hydras - threads that spawn multiple threads that won't die. Ugh... I'm subscribed to a lot of lists. I think debian-users is the worst when it comes to run-on threads. Jeff
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 davidson wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote: > [snip] >> Hello. >> >> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the >> "unubscribe" thread? > > In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages > from my inbox to a dedicated folder. > > Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of > that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed: Flowed text garbled the snapshots a little. %<-- 18284 9:42 Hans (7K) Re: libkscreenlocker5: N 18285 Yesterday pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1 N 18288 15:45 Erwan David (8K) > Swap size in debain 12 18292 12:35 Greg Wooledge (7K) Re: Mailing list unsub * N 18293 Wednesday Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog * 18298 Thursday glenn green (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE N 18332 11:44 Piscium (7K) > Cannot install Debian N 18339 13:45 pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session * 18342 14:49 gene heskett (6K) > setting up network wit -->% %<-- 18284 9:42 Hans (7K) Re: libkscreenlocker5: N 18285 Yesterday pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1 N 18288 15:45 Erwan David (8K) > Swap size in debain 12 18292 12:35 Greg Wooledge (7K) Re: Mailing list unsub * 18293 Wednesday Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog * 18294 Thursday Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a 18295 Yesterday Carl Fink(30K) . \-Re: Sound loses my 18296 5:05 Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses N 18297 14:49 Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose * 18298 Thursday glenn green (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE N 18332 11:44 Piscium (7K) > Cannot install Debian N 18339 13:45 pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session * 18342 14:49 gene heskett (6K) > setting up network wit -->% -- Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures. -- Vladimir Putin
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote: [snip] Hello. Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the "unubscribe" thread? In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages from my inbox to a dedicated folder. Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed: %<-- 18284 9:42 Hans (7K) Re: libkscreenlocker5: N 18285 Yesterday pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1 N 18288 15:45 Erwan David (8K) > Swap size in debain 12 18292 12:35 Greg Wooledge (7K) Re: Mailing list unsub * N 18293 Wednesday Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog * 18298 Thursday glenn green (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE N 18332 11:44 Piscium (7K) > Cannot install Debian N 18339 13:45 pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session * 18342 14:49 gene heskett (6K) > setting up network wit -->% All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed; only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will be invisible, in this collapsed view. If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it: %<-- 18284 9:42 Hans (7K) Re: libkscreenlocker5: N 18285 Yesterday pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1 N 18288 15:45 Erwan David (8K) > Swap size in debain 12 18292 12:35 Greg Wooledge (7K) Re: Mailing list unsub * 18293 Wednesday Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog * 18294 Thursday Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a 18295 Yesterday Carl Fink(30K) . \-Re: Sound loses my 18296 5:05 Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses N 18297 14:49 Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose * 18298 Thursday glenn green (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE N 18332 11:44 Piscium (7K) > Cannot install Debian N 18339 13:45 pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session * 18342 14:49 gene heskett (6K) > setting up network wit -->% But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom are more recently active). [snip] So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussion of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, growing, cesspool. The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't concern me. I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this: ... [X] Thread Sorts by Arrival ... Sort Key = SetSort Options --- -- ( ) Subject ( ) Arrival ( ) From ( ) To ( ) Cc ( ) Date ( ) siZe ( ) OrderedSubj ( ) scorE (*) tHread ( ) Reverse Subject ( ) Reverse Arrival ( ) Reverse From ( ) Reverse To ( ) Reverse Cc ( ) Reverse Date ( ) Reverse siZe ( ) Reverse OrderedSubj ( ) Reverse scorE ( ) Reverse tHread ... Threading Display Style = SetRule Values --- -- ( ) none (*) show-thread-structure(default) ( ) mutt-like ( ) indent-subject-1 ( ) indent-subject-2 ( ) indent-from-1 ( ) indent-from-2 ( ) show-structure-in-from ... Threading Index Style = SetRule Values --- -- ( ) regular-index-with-expanded-threads (*)
Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio
On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 08:53:43AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > Hello. > > Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the > "unubscribe" thread? > Sadly, this list isn't fully moderated: the only way to stop any particular thread is not to contribute to it. I spend some time monitoring in case threads become acrimonious: I also post an FAQ here once a month reminding folk here of the Debian Code of Conduct. It's probably worth another reminder, formally, from me as a member of the Debian Community Team, that people posting to the list are respectfully asked to abide by the Code of Conduct. Be polite, be constructive, be helpful - don't fan the flames of flame wars. No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong. Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386 It's also quite easy to criticise the perpetrators of long threads: the easiest way to stop them is not to add to them. I could always add the how to unsubscribe to the FAQ - but if people don't read mail headers and footers on the list, they won't read the FAQ either :( > > So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the > subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussionWW > of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not > the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, > growing, cesspool. > > Thank you in anticipation > With every good wish, as ever, Andy Cater [amaca...@debian.org] For the Debian Community Team > .. > Bret Busby > Armadale > West Australia > (UTC+0800) > .. >
