Re: OT: Protecting electrical equipment; was: Recommendations for a UPS?

[gene heskett]

On 8/1/23 18:46, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 1:09 PM gene heskett > wrote:


On 8/1/23 11:03, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
 > On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 2:40 AM Michael Kjörling
<2695bd53d...@ewoof.net 
 > >>
wrote:
 >
 >     On 31 Jul 2023 15:21 -0400, from songb...@anthive.com

 >     >
(songbird):
 >      >   i do not run things for long when the power goes out
 >      > but the capacity for my needs is plenty and then i shut
 >      > down in an orderly fashion.  most of the time i shut down
 >      > the computer system and unplug the power cord and the
 >      > network cables and antenna cables if there is a storm
 >      > coming through - just out of the idea that i don't really
 >      > want things to get fried.
 >
I replaced the original 60 amp service in 2008 with a 200, and brought
this grandfathered 2970 house service up to code, doing all the
internal
work myself. I have a big ups running everything but the lights and
printers in this room, got rid of the copper telephone because the
cable
was 70 years old, 50 pair paper insulated cable they would not keep
working for a week at a time, so after 5 months of that I voted with my
wallet and hooked all that up to the cable system. I must have done
something right, I have not even blown a ccfl light bulb since and it
all runs 24/7/365.25.


In your case then, you may need to pay attention to transients in your 
cabling plant. Everytime a large motor starts, revs or stops, those 
transients are hitting your cabling. My recollection is that you have 
machine tools in addition to electronics and climate control. Even more 
so then. Also grounding for your electrical system has to be proven 
over-adequate. And any possible ground-loops need to be found and 
remediated.


This is true also, but I am a C.E.T. and learned decades ago that 
electrical grounds ack the NEC are specced from their experience based 
on what works, and to wire logical circuits with a single bolt star 
ground. I do appreciate the concern, Nic.  Call it evangelizing, 
whatever, but it does need an occasional sermon to the non-electrical 
types out there. I've long ago quit counting the number of electrical 
problems I have corrected, created by folks carrying Journeymen cards in 
their billfold. And STILL can't tell the diff between the Neutral and 
the static ground. I've long since given up trying to teach them about 
multiphase power. Most know enough to interchange any two wires feeding 
a 3 phase motor if it runs backwards. The "Why"+ it runs backwards is 
above their pay grade.


 > It's worth mentioning that with a good UPS you get
power-conditioning,
 > not just filtering and over/under-voltage protection. That can
extend
 > the lifetime of any electric motor or other device using the
conditioned
 > power. The UPS emits a controlled waveform beyond what your
utility can
 > provide.
 >
 > And numerous datacenters have begun using DC-powered racks. Less
power
 > loss in the individual transformers and motors in each racked
server,
 > less heat to be expelled.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: OT: Protecting electrical equipment; was: Recommendations for a UPS?

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 1:09 PM gene heskett  wrote:

> On 8/1/23 11:03, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 2:40 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net
> > > wrote:
> >
> > On 31 Jul 2023 15:21 -0400, from songb...@anthive.com
> >  (songbird):
> >  >   i do not run things for long when the power goes out
> >  > but the capacity for my needs is plenty and then i shut
> >  > down in an orderly fashion.  most of the time i shut down
> >  > the computer system and unplug the power cord and the
> >  > network cables and antenna cables if there is a storm
> >  > coming through - just out of the idea that i don't really
> >  > want things to get fried.
> >
> I replaced the original 60 amp service in 2008 with a 200, and brought
> this grandfathered 2970 house service up to code, doing all the internal
> work myself. I have a big ups running everything but the lights and
> printers in this room, got rid of the copper telephone because the cable
> was 70 years old, 50 pair paper insulated cable they would not keep
> working for a week at a time, so after 5 months of that I voted with my
> wallet and hooked all that up to the cable system. I must have done
> something right, I have not even blown a ccfl light bulb since and it
> all runs 24/7/365.25.


In your case then, you may need to pay attention to transients in your
cabling plant. Everytime a large motor starts, revs or stops, those
transients are hitting your cabling. My recollection is that you have
machine tools in addition to electronics and climate control. Even more so
then. Also grounding for your electrical system has to be proven
over-adequate. And any possible ground-loops need to be found and
remediated.


> It's worth mentioning that with a good UPS you get power-conditioning,
> > not just filtering and over/under-voltage protection. That can extend
> > the lifetime of any electric motor or other device using the conditioned
> > power. The UPS emits a controlled waveform beyond what your utility can
> > provide.
> >
> > And numerous datacenters have begun using DC-powered racks. Less power
> > loss in the individual transformers and motors in each racked server,
> > less heat to be expelled.
>
>

Re: OT: Protecting electrical equipment; was: Recommendations for a UPS?

[gene heskett]

On 8/1/23 11:03, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 2:40 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net 
> wrote:


On 31 Jul 2023 15:21 -0400, from songb...@anthive.com
 (songbird):
 >   i do not run things for long when the power goes out
 > but the capacity for my needs is plenty and then i shut
 > down in an orderly fashion.  most of the time i shut down
 > the computer system and unplug the power cord and the
 > network cables and antenna cables if there is a storm
 > coming through - just out of the idea that i don't really
 > want things to get fried.

I replaced the original 60 amp service in 2008 with a 200, and brought 
this grandfathered 2970 house service up to code, doing all the internal 
work myself. I have a big ups running everything but the lights and 
printers in this room, got rid of the copper telephone because the cable 
was 70 years old, 50 pair paper insulated cable they would not keep 
working for a week at a time, so after 5 months of that I voted with my 
wallet and hooked all that up to the cable system. I must have done 
something right, I have not even blown a ccfl light bulb since and it 
all runs 24/7/365.25.



You can have incoming-mains overvoltage protection installed to
provide a base level of protection for everything electrical against a
mains overvoltage (but generally not other types of power
fluctuations). It's not even all that expensive, or at least wasn't
some years ago. Consider asking your electrician what options would be
available in your particular situation and for a cost estimate or
quote.

Especially if you are in an area that frequently gets lightning, it
_might_ help the UPS last longer, too, since its protective circuitry
then doesn't need to take the brunt of the voltage spike after that is
already well inside your home with all the associated risks.


It's worth mentioning that with a good UPS you get power-conditioning, 
not just filtering and over/under-voltage protection. That can extend 
the lifetime of any electric motor or other device using the conditioned 
power. The UPS emits a controlled waveform beyond what your utility can 
provide.


And numerous datacenters have begun using DC-powered racks. Less power 
loss in the individual transformers and motors in each racked server, 
less heat to be expelled.



Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se

“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: OT: Protecting electrical equipment; was: Recommendations for a UPS?

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023, 2:40 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net>
wrote:

> On 31 Jul 2023 15:21 -0400, from songb...@anthive.com (songbird):
> >   i do not run things for long when the power goes out
> > but the capacity for my needs is plenty and then i shut
> > down in an orderly fashion.  most of the time i shut down
> > the computer system and unplug the power cord and the
> > network cables and antenna cables if there is a storm
> > coming through - just out of the idea that i don't really
> > want things to get fried.
>
> You can have incoming-mains overvoltage protection installed to
> provide a base level of protection for everything electrical against a
> mains overvoltage (but generally not other types of power
> fluctuations). It's not even all that expensive, or at least wasn't
> some years ago. Consider asking your electrician what options would be
> available in your particular situation and for a cost estimate or
> quote.
>
> Especially if you are in an area that frequently gets lightning, it
> _might_ help the UPS last longer, too, since its protective circuitry
> then doesn't need to take the brunt of the voltage spike after that is
> already well inside your home with all the associated risks.
>

It's worth mentioning that with a good UPS you get power-conditioning, not
just filtering and over/under-voltage protection. That can extend the
lifetime of any electric motor or other device using the conditioned power.
The UPS emits a controlled waveform beyond what your utility can provide.

And numerous datacenters have begun using DC-powered racks. Less power loss
in the individual transformers and motors in each racked server, less heat
to be expelled.


Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
> “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
>
>

Re: OT: Protecting electrical equipment; was: Recommendations for a UPS?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 31 Jul 2023 15:21 -0400, from songb...@anthive.com (songbird):
>   i do not run things for long when the power goes out
> but the capacity for my needs is plenty and then i shut
> down in an orderly fashion.  most of the time i shut down 
> the computer system and unplug the power cord and the 
> network cables and antenna cables if there is a storm 
> coming through - just out of the idea that i don't really 
> want things to get fried.

You can have incoming-mains overvoltage protection installed to
provide a base level of protection for everything electrical against a
mains overvoltage (but generally not other types of power
fluctuations). It's not even all that expensive, or at least wasn't
some years ago. Consider asking your electrician what options would be
available in your particular situation and for a cost estimate or
quote.

Especially if you are in an area that frequently gets lightning, it
_might_ help the UPS last longer, too, since its protective circuitry
then doesn't need to take the brunt of the voltage spike after that is
already well inside your home with all the associated risks.

-- 
Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”