subject:"Re\: OT\: why I don't want CCs"

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:57:15 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So the real solution would be to find a way to switch smarthosts more
 easily.

I dunno.  Accounts / Edit / SMTP server is pretty darn easy.

   Again, what's wrong with using your own MTA?  Nobody's provided
   reasonable evidence not to yet.
 
  Go read my message.  Plenty of it there in the right circumstances.
 
 Really now?  I saw some paranoid concerns, but that doesn't address
 issues with using your own MTA.

Nice to see that my valid problems are chalked up as nothing but paranoia.

 Why waste the effort half-implimenting a MTA when you can use an
 existing one much more readily?

Because a client should speak the protocols it needs to get the job done
and, news flash, in spite of how much you or others say it use an existing
one much more readily isn't going to make it possible for most people to do
just that.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-19 Thread Thomas Krennwallner

Hi!

On Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 10:49:01PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
  ad IMAP: A MUA has to support IMAP or IMAP would be another POP. IMAP
  mails belongs on the server side and not on the client.
 
 Well, isn't offlineimap something like a caching personal imap server?

offlineimap is some sort of surrogate for the imap service. I have no
problem with it. It's handy for notebook people ;-). But in my eyes the
mails are still on the server.

  ad POP: Do you have a desktop and a notebook and only have POP available
  on your ISP's server? How do you manage to have all mails at your
  machine without messing with some scripts? The POP support makes sense
  because you can treat a POP server just like a mailbox.
 
 Fetchmail.

OK, fetchmail fetches mail to a local mailbox and you can leave them on
the server. This part of mutt is redundant with fetchmail.

  And you could ignore to use mutt if you don't want to mess with a MTA.
  BTW, ever tried to run eximconfig with option 2? You can setup a
  smarthost using mailserver within 9.3 seconds (if you are fast ;-).
 
 Faster if you know the options by memory.

That's true but memory is expensive ;-).

So long
Thomas

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:21PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  Really now?  I saw some paranoid concerns, but that doesn't address
  issues with using your own MTA.
 
 Nice to see that my valid problems are chalked up as nothing but paranoia.

Explain what validates said non-issues?

  Why waste the effort half-implimenting a MTA when you can use an
  existing one much more readily?
 
 Because a client should speak the protocols it needs to get the job done
 and, news flash, in spite of how much you or others say it use an existing
 one much more readily isn't going to make it possible for most people to do
 just that.


And what business does a client have speaking an inter-server protocol?


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 08:04:25AM +0200, Thomas Krennwallner wrote:
 That's true but memory is expensive ;-).

Not really.  Run exim as a satellite system from imap and it only
kicks in if you send mail.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:10:36 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Explain what validates said non-issues?

Uhm, no.  I have explained them already.  The onus is on you to explain
why they are nothing more than paranoid and not valid concerns and problems.

 And what business does a client have speaking an inter-server protocol?

Care to back that up with a cite?  Here lemme help.

RFC2822:
   Although SMTP was designed as a mail transport and delivery protocol,
   this specification also contains information that is important to its
   use as a 'mail submission' protocol, as recommended for POP [3, 26]
   and IMAP [6].  Additional submission issues are discussed in RFC 2476
   [15].

RFC2476:
   However, SMTP is now also widely used as a message *submission*
   protocol, that is, a means for message user agents (MUAs) to
   introduce new messages into the MTA routing network.  The process
   which accepts message submissions from MUAs is termed a Message
   Submission Agent (MSA).

Note the use of past and present tense in regards to the role of SMTP. 
When the relevant RFCs acknowledge that use what leg do you have to stand on? 
Are you about to claim the RFCs are wrong and should be ignored.  If so may I
ask whom gets to choose which RFCs are correct, which are not and when to
adhere and ignore?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:48:19PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  Explain what validates said non-issues?
 
 Uhm, no.  I have explained them already.  The onus is on you to explain
 why they are nothing more than paranoid and not valid concerns and problems.

You never gave any explaination at all as to why they would be an
issue, just made a paranoid statement that everybody flat dismissed
and claimed it as fact.

 Note the use of past and present tense in regards to the role of SMTP. 
 When the relevant RFCs acknowledge that use what leg do you have to stand on? 
 Are you about to claim the RFCs are wrong and should be ignored.  If so may I
 ask whom gets to choose which RFCs are correct, which are not and when to
 adhere and ignore?

Those aren't standards yet.  And the only thing I see there is an
awknowledgement that there are mailers currently in use that do the
wrong thing, not that it's the right thing to do.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:58:57 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You never gave any explaination at all as to why they would be an
 issue, just made a paranoid statement that everybody flat dismissed
 and claimed it as fact.

I did give an explanation.  Work mail must originate from a work SMTP
server.  Personal mail has no business being routed through the work SMTP
server.  What part of that is there to not understand?

 Those aren't standards yet.  And the only thing I see there is an
 awknowledgement that there are mailers currently in use that do the
 wrong thing, not that it's the right thing to do.

And you still haven't cited that it is a wrong thing to do.  Get cracking.
 I'm tired of being the only one to cite relevant passages from RFCs.  Time
for you, and others, to do their own homework.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:02:31 -0700
Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Those aren't standards yet.  And the only thing I see there is an
  awknowledgement that there are mailers currently in use that do the
  wrong thing, not that it's the right thing to do.
 
 And you still haven't cited that it is a wrong thing to do.  Get
 cracking.  I'm tired of being the only one to cite relevant passages from
 RFCs.  Time for you, and others, to do their own homework.

Oh, and I forgot to mention.  You're wrong.  The 2nd RFC defines SMTP
submissions from MUAs.  So you /are/ saying that an RFC is wrong, eh? 
Interesting.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 12:02:31AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  You never gave any explaination at all as to why they would be an
  issue, just made a paranoid statement that everybody flat dismissed
  and claimed it as fact.
 
 I did give an explanation.  Work mail must originate from a work SMTP
 server.  Personal mail has no business being routed through the work SMTP
 server.  What part of that is there to not understand?

I can understand the whole personal mail not on business servers, but
what's wrong with the other way around?  I don't see anything
ethically or legally questionable about that.  If it puts you in a
legally questionable position to email something through a mail server
other than your employers, then email probably isn't the best way to
get it there anyway.

 And you still haven't cited that it is a wrong thing to do.  Get cracking.
  I'm tired of being the only one to cite relevant passages from RFCs.  Time
 for you, and others, to do their own homework.

Obvious design methods don't tend to get documented in RFCs.  Sorry if
you don't have common sense.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-19 Thread Jesse Meyer

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Thomas Krennwallner wrote:

 On Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 10:49:01PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
  Faster if you know the options by memory.
 
 That's true but memory is expensive ;-).

Its the quality, not the quantity that concerns me - latency is a tad 
high (on the order of hours, or even days, for some information), and 
I don't think I have any sort of ECC support -- information frequently 
seems mangled upon recall.  :)

~ Jesse Meyer

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:09:05 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I can understand the whole personal mail not on business servers, but
 what's wrong with the other way around?  I don't see anything
 ethically or legally questionable about that.  If it puts you in a
 legally questionable position to email something through a mail server
 other than your employers, then email probably isn't the best way to
 get it there anyway.

*sigh*  You're completely forgetting that there are policies in some
companies where all mail sent through corporate mail servers is archived for
legal purposes.  As such all business correspondence is to be routed through
corporate servers so that a copy can be preserved in case the client(s) decide
to take legal action based on something which may or may not be proved by what
was said in email.  Couple that with the fact that it is generally good
practice to disallow relaying through internal corporate servers and you have
an issue where the mail *must* go there and it takes methods of authentication
far too tenuous and complex for most people to want to dick with an MTA to do
what a mail client can get done in a 30s setup.

Furthermore it is just good business policy to not mix work and home mail
if at all possible.  It can prevent very embarrassing slip-ups when mail is
sent the wrong way, when filters on one system might misplace a message the
other would catch, keeps the issue of BCCs clear and concise (you know exactly
where they are going to because they can go no-where else), etc.

 Obvious design methods don't tend to get documented in RFCs.  Sorry if
 you don't have common sense.

I do have common sense.  

A: RFC2821, the governing RFC for SMTP, does not disallow clients from
accessing SMTP for submission.
B: RFC2476 is an attempt to create a separate submission port but explicitly
allows that port to reside on 25.

Common sense tells me that if the governing RFC allows it and there's an
RFC addressing it it is clear that your claims that it is wrong without
cites is based not on any fact that you can back up.  Sorry, I don't
particularly care about what random joe out there thinks is right or wrong
when he provides no supporting facts or citations.  All I care about is what
the RFCs says.  

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Mark L. Kahnt

On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 12:21, Colin Watson wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 08:55:16AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
  Which brings me to a question.  Hey, all you Debian Developers!  Do
  you put the fact you're a DD on your resume?
 
 Yes. It's a significant part of my free-time work and experience, so it
 deserves to be there. I suspect it may have been a contributing factor
 in getting my current job.
 
 -- 
 Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Volunteer entries on a resume are always great - for me, that is where I
have many of my best job titles and descriptions, partly because I got
to get more involved with the complexities of various projects than
would be the case in most business or government structures, and partly
because I got to create my own titles in those environments (hmm, was
that Administrivia Caesaria?)
-- 
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ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting
Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935
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Re: What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

2003-07-18 Thread Mark L. Kahnt

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 06:16, Colin Watson wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 12:41:24AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
  also sprach Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2335 +0200]:
   Er, no, the .rpm - .deb direction is distinctly useful, not to mention
   required for LSB compliance ...
  
  ... which Debian has achieved since when?
 
 We're not *that* far off. I think nobody has bothered to jump through
 the last few requisite hoops, is all.
 
 -- 
 Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The impression I've gotten from various sources is finding someone
willing to sponsor the cost of validating compliance is the bulk of what
is left - the balance being individual packages not on top of the LSB
issues - possibly needing some bugs to be filed to coax the compliance
(or requiring LSB compliance of anything to be released as part of some
future Debian release of Linux, and pray that it doesn't break anything
for the Hurd or a *BSD.)

My own observations is that the work has proceeded quite smoothly
compared to any large scale reorganisation I've been involved with, and
my gratitude to all that accomplished these miracles.
-- 
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Bijan Soleymani

Jesse Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I also find that a local MTA on a laptop is great.  I have a local
 network which grabs my email from several sources and sorts it, then
 every other machine on the network can access that email via imaps.
 
 My laptop is configured to periodically check to see if it can make
 a connection to the server, and, if it can, synchronize the laptop's mail 
 directories with the servers (offlineimap).
 
 The end result is that I can take my laptop anywhere, read the messages 
 that it grabbed from the server, compose my replies, all without
 worrying what network connectivity I have.  Once I get home, I just need 
 to plug the laptop into the local network: no logging in or running a 
 specific program.

Ok so I was very wrong about this. I think this is very useful.

What I meant is that if I go on the road with my laptop, I can connect
to a net connection there and use the smtp server of the ISP
there. With mozilla all I have to edit is one field (the outgoing mail
server), I don't have to wait until I get home. With mutt I have to
change some setting in my MTA, which I'd rather not mess with.

 This collection of several binaries (exim, procmail, courierimap-ssl,
 bogofilter, fetchmail, offlineimap, mutt, vim, gnupg, etc) may seem like
 a massive PITA just to read and reply to email, and it is harder to
 setup then opening Outlook Express, pointing it to a smtp and pop3
 server, and entering in a few lines of information.  In exchange for the 
 initial difficulty, I gain a modular system that is easy to maintain,
 upgrade, and adapt to my needs.  I don't have to find the one true email
 client that does all of the above - instead, I can mix and match the
 best of breed in each category.  I don't have to have to use the email
 client that has a poor mail editor just to get a good spam filter:  I
 can continue to use mutt and vim with bogofilter.  Perhaps one day
 I'll decide that spamassassin is a lot better then bogofilter, and
 switch - but if I do, I don't need to learn anything else: any unix
 email client should work with it.  I can jump from mutt to emacs and my
 mail sorting and spam filtering will still work.

This argument just doesn't make it. Mutt does filtering (shouldn't
procmail be doing this). Mutt does IMAP and POP (shouldn't fetchmail
and offlineimap do this). Mutt does encryption (ok so it probably runs
gnupg in the background but still this means you can't use GENERICpg
because it might not use exactly the same options). With all of those
things you have an option of running an external program or using the
built-in support of mutt. Sadly for me, I use external programs
(fetchmail, procmail, spamassassin, and so on) for getting mail, but I
would like mutt to handle just sending the mail. But for some reason
only that part of the chain is taboo.

 From the end user perspective, the above might be a bogus argument - 
 how many people truly change their email client from day to day?  From a
 development perspective, the modularity looks a lot different - I don't
 have to trust the mutt developers to be experts in encryption - that's
 the gnupg team's responsibility.  The exim guys don't need to worry
 about how to inject email from remote systems and deliver it locally -
 the fetchmail group has already written a program to grab the email,
 rewrite the headers, and feed it to exim for local delivery.  For a
 developer, the code becomes simpler, yet, with all the apps taken as a
 whole, the end result can have many more features then the typical
 windows mail client.  At the same time, by delegating different tasks to
 different programs, there is less duplication of effort, and the results
 are available to everyone.  If gnupg adds a new feature, or better
 optimization, elm and mutt users benefit.  Mutt doesn't need to add 
 an editor to itself - it can use vim, and vim doesn't need to add a
 spellcheck - its simple to find the plugin that uses ispell or aspell to
 do the job.
 
 Unix application modularity may have an abstract elegance, but it also
 tends to lead to smarter program chains then having one large program.  
 Coders don't have to be experts in every aspect of a task - all
 they need to know is how to write their code so that other modular
 programs (whose coders are experts on that specific task) can work with
 their own.

There are two philosophies. One thinks that dealing with email is one
task. And therefore requires one program. The other thinks that
receiving mail, filtering mail, reading mail, replying to mail,
sending out the replies, and so on, are each seperate tasks. In the
end I don't care at all which of the approaches a piece of software
takes as long as it works.

However I find it odd that mutt receives mail (POP and IMAP), mutt
filters mail, mutt shows summary of mail, mutt reads mail, but mutt
doesn't send mail. If one wanted to be crazy about unix philosophy one
would remove POP and IMAP, and remove filtering. Even the

Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Paul Johnson

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On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 01:05:32AM -0400, Bijan Soleymani wrote:
 Ok so I was very wrong about this. I think this is very useful.
 
 What I meant is that if I go on the road with my laptop, I can connect
 to a net connection there and use the smtp server of the ISP
 there. With mozilla all I have to edit is one field (the outgoing mail
 server), I don't have to wait until I get home. With mutt I have to
 change some setting in my MTA, which I'd rather not mess with.

Whereas if you're running an MTA, you don't have to worry about
whatever network you're already on having one.

 This argument just doesn't make it. Mutt does filtering (shouldn't
 procmail be doing this). Mutt does IMAP and POP (shouldn't fetchmail
 and offlineimap do this). Mutt does encryption (ok so it probably runs
 gnupg in the background but still this means you can't use GENERICpg
 because it might not use exactly the same options).

What makes you think that mutt is hardcoded for GPG?  Yeah, mutt has
IMAP, IMAP makes sense since the whole point of IMAP is mailbox
synchronization.  Not sure why it does POP, and AFAIK it doesn't
filter.

 With all of those things you have an option of running an external
 program or using the built-in support of mutt. Sadly for me, I use
 external programs (fetchmail, procmail, spamassassin, and so on) for
 getting mail, but I would like mutt to handle just sending the
 mail. But for some reason only that part of the chain is taboo.

Again, what's wrong with using your own MTA?  Nobody's provided
reasonable evidence not to yet.

 However I find it odd that mutt receives mail (POP and IMAP), mutt
 filters mail, mutt shows summary of mail, mutt reads mail, but mutt
 doesn't send mail. If one wanted to be crazy about unix philosophy one
 would remove POP and IMAP, and remove filtering. Even the displaying
 of messages should have been passed on to less or more (I know mutt
 has it's own pager, but by unix logic it doesn't need it, just as it
 doesn't need an editor like pine's pico :).

You can use whatever preference in pager you want to use.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Thomas Krennwallner

Hi!

[Finally I must join this thread now.]

On Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 01:05:32AM -0400, Bijan Soleymani wrote:
 This argument just doesn't make it. Mutt does filtering (shouldn't

Where does mutt filter you messages? With what setting?

 procmail be doing this). Mutt does IMAP and POP (shouldn't fetchmail

ad IMAP: A MUA has to support IMAP or IMAP would be another POP. IMAP
mails belongs on the server side and not on the client.

ad POP: Do you have a desktop and a notebook and only have POP available
on your ISP's server? How do you manage to have all mails at your
machine without messing with some scripts? The POP support makes sense
because you can treat a POP server just like a mailbox.

 and offlineimap do this). Mutt does encryption (ok so it probably runs
 gnupg in the background but still this means you can't use GENERICpg
 because it might not use exactly the same options). With all of those
 things you have an option of running an external program or using the

Not true. mutt does pgp, gpg and S/MIME via openssl. It only calls some
binaries, no builtins. If you have NoPG or whatever you can manage to
setup mutt to use it even with some very uncommon command line option.
Just read the rc files in the /usr/share/doc/mutt/examples/ directory.

 built-in support of mutt. Sadly for me, I use external programs
 (fetchmail, procmail, spamassassin, and so on) for getting mail, but I
 would like mutt to handle just sending the mail. But for some reason
 only that part of the chain is taboo.

Sending mail belongs to the MTA aka Mail Transfer Agent.

 I also find it weird that Evolution is a kitchen sink (Microsoft
 Outlook) type email client, but it support local mbox and maildir,
 external gpg, external spamassassin, internal and external filtering,
 and sending through local MTA or through smtp smarthost. However I
 don't think it supports an external editor, although it might.

File a wishlist bug report.

 Pine comes with pico, but you can use vim instead. Mutt supports IMAP
 and POP but you can use external apps as well. Evolution can use SMTP
 smarthost or local MTA. In each of these cases the advanced user can
 choose to ignore the built-in functionality.

And you could ignore to use mutt if you don't want to mess with a MTA.
BTW, ever tried to run eximconfig with option 2? You can setup a
smarthost using mailserver within 9.3 seconds (if you are fast ;-).

 One reason why I do is choice. That's why I don't like software that
 says: You can't do X this way, even though *I* want to do it that
 way.

Again file wishlist bug reports against these packages. Or don't use
these types of software.

When everybody else likes the way X does its tasks why should upstream
or the package maintainer change the way X does its tasks? It makes
actually sense to split software in several parts or you will end up in 
software that does everything (german speaking people would say
eierlegende Wollmilchsau) and nothing because the software developer has
to reinvent all type of software from scratch (or use some fine
libraries) and doesn't have time to hack some new features in.

Just my 2 eurocents.

So long
Thomas

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Paul Johnson

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On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 07:43:31AM +0200, Thomas Krennwallner wrote:
  procmail be doing this). Mutt does IMAP and POP (shouldn't fetchmail
 
 ad IMAP: A MUA has to support IMAP or IMAP would be another POP. IMAP
 mails belongs on the server side and not on the client.

Well, isn't offlineimap something like a caching personal imap server?

 ad POP: Do you have a desktop and a notebook and only have POP available
 on your ISP's server? How do you manage to have all mails at your
 machine without messing with some scripts? The POP support makes sense
 because you can treat a POP server just like a mailbox.

Fetchmail.

 And you could ignore to use mutt if you don't want to mess with a MTA.
 BTW, ever tried to run eximconfig with option 2? You can setup a
 smarthost using mailserver within 9.3 seconds (if you are fast ;-).

Faster if you know the options by memory.


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Steve Lamb

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:37:45 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Whereas if you're running an MTA, you don't have to worry about
 whatever network you're already on having one.

Uh, if we're talking smarthost, yeah, you do.  Where do you think that
smarthost forwards mail to?
 
 Again, what's wrong with using your own MTA?  Nobody's provided
 reasonable evidence not to yet.

Go read my message.  Plenty of it there in the right circumstances.

What's wrong with the mail client doing it's own SMTP?  Nobody's provided
reasonable evidence not to yet.

-- 
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-18 Thread Jesse Meyer

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Mark Ferlatte wrote:
 Bijan Soleymani said on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 02:06:18PM -0400:
  I really don't see a valid argument for MTA/MDA/MUA on a PC-type
  one-user workstation. Especially on a laptop. When MUAs support IMAP and
  POP they should go the extra inch and support SMTP smarthosts.
  
 I've found a local MTA on a laptop to be wonderful; I can just send mail, and
 let the MTA's queuing mechanism hand off to a smarthost whenever I get
 connectivity.  Saves time on slow/poor connections.

I also find that a local MTA on a laptop is great.  I have a local
network which grabs my email from several sources and sorts it, then
every other machine on the network can access that email via imaps.

My laptop is configured to periodically check to see if it can make
a connection to the server, and, if it can, synchronize the laptop's mail 
directories with the servers (offlineimap).

The end result is that I can take my laptop anywhere, read the messages 
that it grabbed from the server, compose my replies, all without
worrying what network connectivity I have.  Once I get home, I just need 
to plug the laptop into the local network: no logging in or running a 
specific program.

Same with newsgroups - my laptop maintains a small local cache, and I 
read them when I'm on or offline - as soon as I'm back on a network, my 
replies will be sent out.

This collection of several binaries (exim, procmail, courierimap-ssl,
bogofilter, fetchmail, offlineimap, mutt, vim, gnupg, etc) may seem like
a massive PITA just to read and reply to email, and it is harder to
setup then opening Outlook Express, pointing it to a smtp and pop3
server, and entering in a few lines of information.  In exchange for the 
initial difficulty, I gain a modular system that is easy to maintain,
upgrade, and adapt to my needs.  I don't have to find the one true email
client that does all of the above - instead, I can mix and match the
best of breed in each category.  I don't have to have to use the email
client that has a poor mail editor just to get a good spam filter:  I
can continue to use mutt and vim with bogofilter.  Perhaps one day
I'll decide that spamassassin is a lot better then bogofilter, and
switch - but if I do, I don't need to learn anything else: any unix
email client should work with it.  I can jump from mutt to emacs and my
mail sorting and spam filtering will still work.

From the end user perspective, the above might be a bogus argument - 
how many people truly change their email client from day to day?  From a
development perspective, the modularity looks a lot different - I don't
have to trust the mutt developers to be experts in encryption - that's
the gnupg team's responsibility.  The exim guys don't need to worry
about how to inject email from remote systems and deliver it locally -
the fetchmail group has already written a program to grab the email,
rewrite the headers, and feed it to exim for local delivery.  For a
developer, the code becomes simpler, yet, with all the apps taken as a
whole, the end result can have many more features then the typical
windows mail client.  At the same time, by delegating different tasks to
different programs, there is less duplication of effort, and the results
are available to everyone.  If gnupg adds a new feature, or better
optimization, elm and mutt users benefit.  Mutt doesn't need to add 
an editor to itself - it can use vim, and vim doesn't need to add a
spellcheck - its simple to find the plugin that uses ispell or aspell to
do the job.

Unix application modularity may have an abstract elegance, but it also
tends to lead to smarter program chains then having one large program.  
Coders don't have to be experts in every aspect of a task - all
they need to know is how to write their code so that other modular
programs (whose coders are experts on that specific task) can work with
their own.

Going back to the end user, we find another bonus - no longer does the
end user need to learn how to do the same task different ways - if the
program is going to need an editor, it can use the editor the end user
is most comfortable with.  Any tricks I learn in vim I can use while
composing messages in mutt or slrn.

Which is why I like Unix/Linux.

Just my (very long) $.02,

Jesse Meyer

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Paul Johnson

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:24:00PM -0400, nori heikkinen wrote:
 oh, i see what you mean.  but that will only work locally, right?
 right now i read my email off xterms from one machine, while using a
 browser local to another.
 
 guess i'm SOL?

It's 2003 and people still don't know what the -C and -X flags do in SSH?

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.17.0219 +0200]:
 *normally* listening to port 25 . . .are you saying that when fetchmail
 is explicitly configured to invoke an MDA in /etc/fetchmailrc, that
 MDA is briefly listening on port 25 until it's done receiving from
 fetchmail, and then quits?

No, fetchmail invokes the MDA and pipes the message via STDIN.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.17.1048 +0200]:
 It's 2003 and people still don't know what the -C and -X flags do
 in SSH?

Guess what: X-forwarding over a Dual ISDN line from a host 8 hops
away in another country isn't that much fun. That's where my
mailserver is wrt my current position.

However, urlview gives me w3m instead. So there.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Paul Johnson

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 05:35:08AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  Also, cron is a required component of the system, which depends on an MTA. 
  How else is it going to give users output?  Osmosis?  Telepathy?
 
 Log files?

They're not user readable.

 Heaven forbid I want to do anything advanced like use the same client
 to check two accounts and keep them completely, totally separate. 

Procmail to filter each address off, mutt send-hooks to check the
address it was sent to and reply with that address.  Talking five
minutes with google.

 Even worse than that (talking specifically mutt here) I couldn't
 tell what folders had new mail in it with a concise display. 

Hit c? and you'll get an ls type list.  N will appear in the status
column on the far left if there's new mail.  You need to have a
Mailboxes statement for every mailbox you want checked.

 That's partially answered by some clients allow you to determine
 which folders to watch for new mail.  Great, another option to put
 on 20-30 folders and still doesn't help on the folders I only have
 to review so often.

So don't enable it on the ones that can wait.

Besides, I think most people can do something better with the 30 MB of
RAM the other clients waste than pretend to be a real mail
installation.

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Re: What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

2003-07-17 Thread Colin Watson

On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 12:41:24AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2335 +0200]:
  Er, no, the .rpm - .deb direction is distinctly useful, not to mention
  required for LSB compliance ...
 
 ... which Debian has achieved since when?

We're not *that* far off. I think nobody has bothered to jump through
the last few requisite hoops, is all.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Paul Johnson

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:23:50PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Exactly.  That's my point.  You don't use a Web User Agent which has to
 access the remote sites through a Web Transport Agent, do you?  You *can*,
 it's called a proxy server but even then it is still speaking the same
 protocol.  

Actually, via caching proxy is the nearly universally encouraged
method of web browsing.  Really cuts back on the costs of running a
website and the bandwidth used to access them.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Frank Gevaerts

On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 03:25:13AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
 Procmail to filter each address off, mutt send-hooks to check the
 address it was sent to and reply with that address.  Talking five
 minutes with google.

What about Bcc: ?


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:25:13 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 They're not user readable.

Hmmm, they're readable to the user who needs to read them.

 Procmail to filter each address off, mutt send-hooks to check the
 address it was sent to and reply with that address.  Talking five
 minutes with google.

Which I explained, in detail, and how much of a pain in the arse it is
since I have to do that for every folder, every list even if I don't need to.
 
 Hit c? and you'll get an ls type list.  N will appear in the status
 column on the far left if there's new mail.  You need to have a
 Mailboxes statement for every mailbox you want checked.

Compare that to the display I get now.  I'm typing this.  I can see that I
have another 20 new messges in debian-users, a new one came into debian-devel,
one is sitting in b5jms (which I am letting sit) I have 6 in Sylpheed-claws
and last night 1 message got into my spam box which doesn't show new mail at
all.  Contrast that to having to explicitly hit c? and only getting N.  

 So don't enable it on the ones that can wait.

Then I never know new mail is there, do I?

-- 
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:43:49 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Actually, via caching proxy is the nearly universally encouraged
 method of web browsing.  Really cuts back on the costs of running a
 website and the bandwidth used to access them.

Which does not invalidate my point that the client still speaks the exact
same protocol in the first place and can do perfectly well without it.

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biffs was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Emma Jane Hogbin

On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 05:08:55PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 productivity by factors! Aside, xbuffy can do it all for you if you
 wish.

I'd never heard of the buffy/biffy/biff programs before. I've found gbuffy and
xbuffy. I'm wondering if there's an equivalent to these which will site
nicely with my other Fluxbox dockapps? 

thanks
emma

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.17.1739 +0200]:
 Whereas my switching from Mutt to a GUI application raised mine by
 factors because I didn't have to deal with the trouble of
 configuring it to my required setup.  Also you missed the point.
 Even if I weren't writing a message I could see what is where and
 how much.  I don't have to explicitly check it every time.

The UNIX philosophy says: xbuffy!

  Aside, xbuffy can do it all for you if you wish.
 
 Free blindness included.  Uh, no, it doesn't.

Like what does it not do?

  And I save 25 Mb of RAM and am way faster than you.
 
 Are you now?  How can you be sure?

Because sylpheed is a memory hog and mutt+xbuffy isn't.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:45:38 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The UNIX philosophy says: xbuffy!

Every little task does not have to be in a separate binary.  Esp. when
that binary can't really take input.
 
   Aside, xbuffy can do it all for you if you wish.
  Free blindness included.  Uh, no, it doesn't.
 
 Like what does it not do?

Erm, be readable for one case.  Also let me be able to, dunno, click on it
and be right where I need to be.
 
   And I save 25 Mb of RAM and am way faster than you.
 
  Are you now?  How can you be sure?
 
 Because sylpheed is a memory hog and mutt+xbuffy isn't.

No, you said you're way faster than me.  If you think 25Mb is going to
make you way faster than me then... well...

top - 10:17:48 up 4 days,  3:23,  3 users,  load average: 0.05, 0.08, 0.05
Tasks: 107 total,   1 running, 106 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
 Cpu0 :   2.0% user,   1.3% system,   0.0% nice,  96.7% idle
 Cpu1 :   0.0% user,   0.0% system,   0.0% nice, 100.0% idle
Mem:904364k total,   812912k used,91452k free,   125456k buffers
Swap:0k total,0k used,0k free,   363688k cached

I still have another 500Mb to go before I even touch swap.  How're you
doing on memory?

You see what you, and others, seem to forget about the Unix philosophy is
that at it's core are these words:
The right tool for the job.

For the job I need them to do the MTA/MDA/MUA chain is *NOT* the right
tool.  It is the wrong tool for all the reasons I have enumerated which,
again, have not been refuted.

-- 
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Jamin W. Collins

On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 10:20:19AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
 On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:45:38 +0200 martin f krafft wrote:

 You see what you, and others, seem to forget about the Unix philosophy is
 that at it's core are these words:
 The right tool for the job.

I don't think we've forgot that at all.  We choose not to use the wrong
tool which you seem to be advocating.

 For the job I need them to do the MTA/MDA/MUA chain is *NOT* the right
 tool.  It is the wrong tool for all the reasons I have enumerated which,
 again, have not been refuted.

They have been refuted, you simply choose not to accept that.  We've
been through this already.  You simply choose to interpret things
completely differently.

-- 
Jamin W. Collins

To be nobody but yourself when the whole world is trying it's best night
and day to make you everybody else is to fight the hardest battle any
human being will fight. -- E.E. Cummings


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.17.1920 +0200]:
  The UNIX philosophy says: xbuffy!
 
 Every little task does not have to be in a separate binary.  Esp.
 when that binary can't really take input.

Whatever, I don't need to argue this. I love xbuffy.

 Erm, be readable for one case.  Also let me be able to, dunno,
 click on it and be right where I need to be.

Mine does that just fine. I click on it with the left mouse button,
and mutt pops open, I click on it with the right mouse button and
I get a list of messages. I click on it with the middle mouse
button, and it marks them all as read to xbuffy. Note, I have
a customised xbuffy, Debian's xbuffy has different mouse button
assignments.

 top - 10:17:48 up 4 days,  3:23,  3 users,  load average: 0.05, 0.08, 0.05
 Tasks: 107 total,   1 running, 106 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
  Cpu0 :   2.0% user,   1.3% system,   0.0% nice,  96.7% idle
  Cpu1 :   0.0% user,   0.0% system,   0.0% nice, 100.0% idle
 Mem:904364k total,   812912k used,91452k free,   125456k buffers
 Swap:0k total,0k used,0k free,   363688k cached
 
 I still have another 500Mb to go before I even touch swap.  How're you
 doing on memory?

Yeah, penis contest!

top - 19:32:46 up 104 days,  4:57,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.05
Tasks: 299 total,   1 running, 295 sleeping,   3 stopped,   0 zombie
 Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   2.7% system,   0.0% nice,  97.1% idle
Mem:   2068748k total,  2043068k used,25680k free,   471920k buffers
Swap:   498004k total, 4176k used,   493828k free,  1160540k cached

Do tell why your top shows two CPU lines and mine only one -- this
is also an SMP system, and it works fine, utilising both CPUs...

 You see what you, and others, seem to forget about the Unix
 philosophy is that at it's core are these words: The right tool
 for the job.

And what you seem to forget: it's all about the choice.

I am glad you are happy with your choices.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:44:44 -0600
Jamin W. Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 They have been refuted, you simply choose not to accept that.  We've
 been through this already.  You simply choose to interpret things
 completely differently.

No, they have not.  No one has refuted that having a client handling
multiple accounts is far simpler to setup than it is to try to wrestle a
smarthost MTA into sending to two different remote servers based on which
account the message is being sent from.

No one has refuted that there are times when sending to the wrong server
has ethical and legal ramifications.

No one has refuted that it is far simpler to setup an account in a mail
client and have all the mail separated out instead of relying upon filters.

The only thing you've done is discuss whether or not a mail client can
treat a 4xx like a 5xx and have shown that you consider may to be synonymous
with must even though the language has been codified in RFC2112.

-
5. MAY   This word, or the adjective OPTIONAL, mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)
-

...mean that an item is truly optional.

-
  4yz   Transient Negative Completion reply
  The command was not accepted, and the requested action did not
  occur.  However, the error condition is temporary and the action
  may be requested again. 
-

...may be requested again.  As in The option to request this action
again is TRULY OPTIONAL.

Just because you think it is wrong that a client doesn't make it wrong
according to the RFC.  It is legal according to the RFC.  It is accurate.  It
is right.  Now, again, if you want to refute that, cite your sources.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Bijan Soleymani


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On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 11:44:44AM -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
 They have been refuted, you simply choose not to accept that.  We've
 been through this already.  You simply choose to interpret things
 completely differently.

I really don't see a valid argument for MTA/MDA/MUA on a PC-type
one-user workstation. Especially on a laptop. When MUAs support IMAP and
POP they should go the extra inch and support SMTP smarthosts.

Mozilla, Evolution, etc, only require about 30 seconds of setup. And
it's so simple anyone could pull it off. All you need is a list of:
email-address
pop or imap server
outgoing mail server (SMTP smarthost)
username
password

That's all that is needed, and you can set up as many accounts as you
want and they don't get all entangled. This versus the long and painful
road of trying to set up your own personnal mail server/processing center
just to send email.

Don't get me wrong, I'm using mutt right now. But that's in spite of the
fact that it doesn't speak SMTP, not because of it.

If the problem is that mail clients don't implement all of SMTP properly
(either because some features are useless in a client or because it is
impossible) then we need a new standard, something like SSMTP (Simple
SMTP :) or something like that and a couple of new RFCs to define how it
should work.

Bijan


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:37:49 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Mine does that just fine. I click on it with the left mouse button,
 and mutt pops open

So you have multiple instances of mutt going all the time?  That seems
wasteful to me.

 top - 19:32:46 up 104 days,  4:57,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.05
 Tasks: 299 total,   1 running, 295 sleeping,   3 stopped,   0 zombie
  Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   2.7% system,   0.0% nice,  97.1% idle
 Mem:   2068748k total,  2043068k used,25680k free,   471920k buffers
 Swap:   498004k total, 4176k used,   493828k free,  1160540k cached

Well then, that 24Mb of RAM you were worried about doesn't matter on
either of our systems, now does it?  So I ask again by what measure can you
ascertain that you are faster than I am at a certain task when we both are
using out preferred utilities to do so?

 Do tell why your top shows two CPU lines and mine only one -- this
 is also an SMP system, and it works fine, utilising both CPUs...

´1´ :Toggle_Single/Separate_Cpu_States  --  On/Off
  This command affects how the 't' command's Cpu States portion is
  shown.   Although  this  toggle  exists  primarily to serve mas-
  sively-parallel SMP machines, it is not restricted to solely SMP
  environments.

  When you see 'Cpu(s):' in the summary area, the '1' toggle is On
  and all cpu information is gathered in a  single  line.   Other-
  wise, each cpu is displayed separately as: 'Cpu0, Cpu1, ...'

 And what you seem to forget: it's all about the choice.

No, I haven't forgotten that.  In fact I am the one advocating choice. 
Look back through the thread and you'll see that I never say that the
MDA/MTA/MUA chain is wrong for everyone.  I am only arguing against the fact
that too many people think that it is right for everyone and that a mail
client that talks SMTP is not wrong for anyone.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Mark Ferlatte

Bijan Soleymani said on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 02:06:18PM -0400:
 I really don't see a valid argument for MTA/MDA/MUA on a PC-type
 one-user workstation. Especially on a laptop. When MUAs support IMAP and
 POP they should go the extra inch and support SMTP smarthosts.
 
I've found a local MTA on a laptop to be wonderful; I can just send mail, and
let the MTA's queuing mechanism hand off to a smarthost whenever I get
connectivity.  Saves time on slow/poor connections.

 If the problem is that mail clients don't implement all of SMTP properly
 (either because some features are useless in a client or because it is
 impossible) then we need a new standard, something like SSMTP (Simple
 SMTP :) or something like that and a couple of new RFCs to define how it
 should work.

Already done.  See RFC 2476.  What's great about this is it's just SMTP on a
different port; this allows the mail admin to have different policies for
clients connecting to the submission port than for other servers (who connect
to the SMTP port), but doesn't require any code changes on the part of the
clients.

sendmail has supported submission since 8.11 or so... not sure about other
MTA's, but it's trivial to configure postfix to support it as well; I'm sure
exim can play, too.

M


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Gary Hennigan

martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[snip]
 top - 19:32:46 up 104 days,  4:57,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.02,
 0.05
 Tasks: 299 total,   1 running, 295 sleeping,   3 stopped,   0 zombie
  Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   2.7% system,   0.0% nice,  97.1% idle
 Mem:   2068748k total,  2043068k used,25680k free,   471920k buffers
 Swap:   498004k total, 4176k used,   493828k free,  1160540k cached

 Do tell why your top shows two CPU lines and mine only one -- this
 is also an SMP system, and it works fine, utilising both CPUs...

Man, I *REALLY* wanted to avoid this thread! ;) But a legitimate
question deserves an answer...

Hit 1 while in top and it'll display the CPU info seperately.

Gary


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Alan Shutko

martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Guess what: X-forwarding over a Dual ISDN line from a host 8 hops
 away in another country isn't that much fun. That's where my
 mailserver is wrt my current position.

Not a problem, likely.  Set the mailserver up to use mozilla
-remote... the only thing needed to go over the xpipe are a few x
property queries to find the running mozilla and tell it to load the
page.


-- 
Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks.


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Nathan E Norman

On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 12:26:36PM -0600, Gary Hennigan wrote:
 martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 [snip]
  top - 19:32:46 up 104 days,  4:57,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.02,
  0.05
  Tasks: 299 total,   1 running, 295 sleeping,   3 stopped,   0 zombie
   Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   2.7% system,   0.0% nice,  97.1% idle
  Mem:   2068748k total,  2043068k used,25680k free,   471920k buffers
  Swap:   498004k total, 4176k used,   493828k free,  1160540k cached
 
  Do tell why your top shows two CPU lines and mine only one -- this
  is also an SMP system, and it works fine, utilising both CPUs...
 
 Man, I *REALLY* wanted to avoid this thread! ;) But a legitimate
 question deserves an answer...
 
 Hit 1 while in top and it'll display the CPU info seperately.

Er, what version of procps?  Doesn't work here; I've got 2.0.7-8 (and
a non-i36 arch but I hope that doesn't matter).

-- 
Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of
  thought which they avoid.
  -- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:37:44 -0500
Nathan E Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Er, what version of procps?  Doesn't work here; I've got 2.0.7-8 (and
 a non-i36 arch but I hope that doesn't matter).

ii  procps 3.1.9-1The /proc file system utilities

Not sure when it started doing it but that is what I have installed here.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-17 Thread Gary Hennigan

Nathan E Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 12:26:36PM -0600, Gary Hennigan wrote:
[snip]
 Man, I *REALLY* wanted to avoid this thread! ;) But a legitimate
 question deserves an answer...
 
 Hit 1 while in top and it'll display the CPU info seperately.

 Er, what version of procps?  Doesn't work here; I've got 2.0.7-8 (and
 a non-i36 arch but I hope that doesn't matter).

I'm on a i386 arch and using procps 3.1.9 so one of those is likely
the culprit.

Gary


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.17.2012 +0200]:
  Mine does that just fine. I click on it with the left mouse button,
  and mutt pops open
 
 So you have multiple instances of mutt going all the time?  That seems
 wasteful to me.

No, just when I need them. Aside, the memory footprint of a single
mutt invocation is something of the order of 1.5 Mb, so I can have
many open if I wish.

 Well then, that 24Mb of RAM you were worried about doesn't matter
 on either of our systems, now does it?  So I ask again by what
 measure can you ascertain that you are faster than I am at
 a certain task when we both are using out preferred utilities to
 do so?

I whink you should come over here and we whip it out!

 ?1? :Toggle_Single/Separate_Cpu_States  --  On/Off

COOOL!

  And what you seem to forget: it's all about the choice.
 
 No, I haven't forgotten that.  In fact I am the one advocating
 choice. Look back through the thread and you'll see that I never
 say that the MDA/MTA/MUA chain is wrong for everyone.  I am only
 arguing against the fact that too many people think that it is
 right for everyone and that a mail client that talks SMTP is not
 wrong for anyone.

Well, I don't even know why I entered this thread -- must have been
drunk at the time -- or did I start it? Dammit, I think I did.
Nevertheless, I actually concur with you. grin

Let's end this email with a quote by the Wildest:

  i dislike arguments of any kind. they are always vulgar, and often
  convincing.

in fact,

  arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds
  exactly the same opinion.

There you go.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Joerg Johannes

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 06:08, MJM wrote:
 On Tuesday 15 July 2003 23:07, Paul Johnson wrote:
  On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 05:14:08PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
   Please let's not start a flamewar.  I won't cc you anymore since
   you read the lists all of the time.
 
  Better yet, don't CC unless someone has requested that you do
  through the accepted methods of using Followup-To...

 Just saw this thread.  It brings up a point that I've wondered about.
  To respond to this list  I have to hit the Reply-All button.  Then I
 have to clean out other recipients other than the list address. IF I
 just use the Reply button, the person, not the list, is entered into
 the To: field. PITA. I use KMail - is it being lame?

I use kmail too. I am filtering the debian-user mailing list to a 
seperate folder called debian-user (smart, eh? ;) ) with the builtin 
filter options. I use the X-Mailing-List:  header for that. The 
folder options are set to folder contains a mailing list and the 
mailing-list adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Now when you reply 
to a thread, you want to hit the l button (ell) instead of r This 
will reply to the list.

 (I've got learn Mutt on my todo list - started playing with it
 tonight.)

I tried that, but I hate vim being the default editor, setting it to 
xemacs caused problems in my xterm. Furthermore I use pop/smtp to 
get/sen my emails via a freemail provider, and I did not want to mess 
around with exim  co. to send mail. Kmail does this all ok for me. I 
guess I am lame, too.

joerg

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Joerg Johannes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.0919 +0200]:
 I tried that, but I hate vim being the default editor, setting it
 to xemacs caused problems in my xterm. Furthermore I use pop/smtp
 to get/sen my emails via a freemail provider, and I did not want
 to mess around with exim  co. to send mail. Kmail does this all
 ok for me. I guess I am lame, too.

mutt can do pop/smtp without problems, and the problem with the
xterm is easily solved. so the question is: do you want to use mutt,
or are you a GUI person. whichever one is lame, who cares. it's your
choice!

 Gib GATES keine Chance!

he's already taken a few...

-- 
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Vineet Kumar

* martin f krafft ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030716 00:51]:
 also sprach Joerg Johannes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.0919 +0200]:
  I tried that, but I hate vim being the default editor, setting it
  to xemacs caused problems in my xterm. Furthermore I use pop/smtp
  to get/sen my emails via a freemail provider, and I did not want
  to mess around with exim  co. to send mail. Kmail does this all
  ok for me. I guess I am lame, too.
 
 mutt can do pop/smtp without problems, and the problem with the

It can?  Afaik, mutt doesn't speak smtp.  It does pop and imap.
Actually, recently I've been using it with local maildirs synchronized
via offlineimap, which works pretty well.

Setting up exim shouldn't be a problem, though.  One of the options from
eximconfig should work for you without having to mess with the generated
exim.conf at all, I'd guess.  And if you do end up having to tweak
something, and can't figure it out well, you've got dman on this list --
what more could you ask for? =)

good times,
Vineet
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Joerg Johannes

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 09:31, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach Joerg Johannes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.0919 
+0200]:
  I tried that, but I hate vim being the default editor, setting it
  to xemacs caused problems in my xterm. Furthermore I use pop/smtp
  to get/sen my emails via a freemail provider, and I did not want
  to mess around with exim  co. to send mail. Kmail does this all
  ok for me. I guess I am lame, too.

 mutt can do pop/smtp without problems, and the problem with the
 xterm is easily solved. so the question is: do you want to use mutt,
 or are you a GUI person. whichever one is lame, who cares. it's your
 choice!

Well, I always use the GUI, but I don't like the mouse. kmail is 
comletely keyboard-controllable, so I use it. I have tried mutt before, 
but with mutt comes procmail (for sorting mails) and heavy .muttrc 
editing. (I have tried out lots of muttrc's from 
http://www.dotfiles.com/index.php3?app_id=27 but have never got smtp 
sending to work.) And kmail has one major advantage: I can read mails 
with over-long lines without problems...

  Gib GATES keine Chance!

 he's already taken a few...

Too many!

joerg

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 09:19:20AM +0200, Joerg Johannes wrote:
 Furthermore I use pop/smtp to get/sen my emails via a freemail
 provider, and I did not want to mess around with exim  co. to send
 mail.

Fetchmail is super-easy as is exim.  If you can't find the example
config in /usr/share/doc/fetchmail/examples and don't understand
eximconfig, I've really got to question how you managed to make it
past the installer.

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`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 10:01:47AM +0200, Joerg Johannes wrote:
 And kmail has one major advantage: I can read mails 
 with over-long lines without problems...

So can mutt, but the ultimate solution is to tell your correspondants
not to send email in a retarded manner.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Vineet Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.0956 +0200]:
 It can?  Afaik, mutt doesn't speak smtp.  It does pop and imap.

Well, you might be right. I think I had a patched version then...

 Actually, recently I've been using it with local maildirs
 synchronized via offlineimap, which works pretty well.

I nominate offlineimap for the Tool of the Year 2003 Award!

 Setting up exim shouldn't be a problem, though.

Or just install nullmailer, which is made for the task of providing
sendmail and an smtp client, no more.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:19:20 +0200
Joerg Johannes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I tried that, but I hate vim being the default editor, setting it to 
 xemacs caused problems in my xterm. Furthermore I use pop/smtp to 
 get/sen my emails via a freemail provider, and I did not want to mess 
 around with exim  co. to send mail. Kmail does this all ok for me. I 
 guess I am lame, too.

Not in my view.  I never understood why people have such a woody on having
an MTA on a machine that most likely doesn't need it.  The mail client is
perfectly capable, or at least should be, of talking basic SMTP to contact a
single SMTP server for smarthost purposes.  

The last time I had that particular discussion someone pointed out that
mail clients shouldn't speak SMTP since they would have to do queuing and dns
lookups and whatever to do with the email if an error arises?  I simply asked
what a mail client does now if an error arises from, say, the MTA not being
installed?  Clearly it is an error condition and something must be done about
it.  Why can't that same resolution to an error condition (unable to contact
MTA) differ if the method is SMTP vs. a locally run program, etc?  *shrug*

-- 
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:14:52 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 10:01:47AM +0200, Joerg Johannes wrote:
  And kmail has one major advantage: I can read mails 
  with over-long lines without problems...
 
 So can mutt, but the ultimate solution is to tell your correspondants
 not to send email in a retarded manner.

http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=

How is that in a retarded manner?  Breaking up that line would mean the
end user would need to piece it back together.  :P

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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:42:49AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  So can mutt, but the ultimate solution is to tell your correspondants
  not to send email in a retarded manner.
 
 http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
 
 How is that in a retarded manner?  Breaking up that line would mean the
 end user would need to piece it back together.  :P

OK, anybody who has ever had to put up with monster.com's technical
stupidity even though they have good job listings know this is true.
Who, in their right mind, would send people six line long URLs in
email and expect them to be universally easy to use?

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Richard Kimber

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:03:15 -0700
Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In fact Sylpheed-claws' reply on a list message defaults to
 reply-to-list.
 It has a reply-to-sender for list mail to which you want to reply
 directly to the sender.  Very sane, IMHO.

This is also in Sylpheed itself.

- Richard
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:39:53AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Not in my view.  I never understood why people have such a woody on having
 an MTA on a machine that most likely doesn't need it.  The mail client is
 perfectly capable, or at least should be, of talking basic SMTP to contact a
 single SMTP server for smarthost purposes.  

Because it's pointless and un-necissary to impliment the better part
of an MTA into an MUA.  This was one of the things that started
Windows MUAs on the bloat cycle.  Well, we almost have an MTA
implimented in this MUA...let's go ahead and almost impliment an MDA
and almost impliment a web browser and almost impliment an html editor
and annoying-feature-that-breaks-sent-messages-for-everyone-else and
fully impliment something that allows arbitrary code sent from
anyone to do anything apon receipt...  OK, so the line of thinking
probably didn't include the last one.  But the result of such remarks
happened anyway, and by my estimation, because everything in the above
statement happened along the way.

One program, one function.  It really does just work better that way.
That whole thirty seconds of thinking and keypoking at eximconfig to
take a stand against bad MUA design is *not* going to hurt you, no
matter how many software ads tell you komputers is hard and that's why
their (slapdash, profiteering, wrong) way is the only way and thinking
otherwise will cause pain.

 The last time I had that particular discussion someone pointed out that
 mail clients shouldn't speak SMTP since they would have to do queuing and dns
 lookups and whatever to do with the email if an error arises?  I simply asked
 what a mail client does now if an error arises from, say, the MTA not being
 installed?

All of them, with the exception of ones that were ported from windows
(Mozilla, Netscape), or the ones that make similarly bad design
decisions as the Windows MUAs (kmail and any other MUA that thinks
it's also half an MDA or MTA), because they make the safe assumption
that transport is not the user agent's job (it's not, that's the
transport agent's job).  Also, cron is a required component of the
system, which depends on an MTA.  How else is it going to give users
output?  Osmosis?  Telepathy?

 Clearly it is an error condition and something must be done about
 it.

Actually, I think it more clearly demonstrates that you got your idea
of software design from the Windows world, which ignores real-world
stability and security issues.

 Why can't that same resolution to an error condition (unable to
 contact MTA) differ if the method is SMTP vs. a locally run program,
 etc?  *shrug*

And most people also don't like waiting on their confused half-an-MTA
to sit there and spin when something it's tiny brain can't handle
happens, like destination SMTP server got yanked out from under them.
At least with a real MTA operating in parallell to your MUA (the right
way), your MUA hands it off and lets you keep moving with your day
instead of waiting on delivery or leaving it floating around limbo in
some outbox.  If it runs into a problem, you get the bounce just as
fast either way, and if you're offline, it'll get sent next time the
link comes back up automatically, even if you're not logged in.

Considering how much easier to configure the MTA once and let it run
versus telling everybody how to set up a bastard MTA/MDA/MUA program,
I can't even understand how this design became so prevelant on any
platform...

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:14:42 -0700
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Because it's pointless and un-necissary to impliment the better part
 of an MTA into an MUA.

Which is why you don't do that.  Smarthost doesn't need a full blown MTA
to do it.  This is smarthost behavior.  Here are the steps involved:

Lookup DNS
Connect
Process

That doesn't look like an MTA to me.

 One program, one function.  It really does just work better that way.

I agree.  However I do not subscribe to the theory that mail clients are a
class of clients unto themselves which cannot handle their own transport like
every other class of clients in the server/client model.

 That whole thirty seconds of thinking and keypoking at eximconfig to
 take a stand against bad MUA design is *not* going to hurt you, no
 matter how many software ads tell you komputers is hard and that's why
 their (slapdash, profiteering, wrong) way is the only way and thinking
 otherwise will cause pain.

Lemme give you a little background.  I've been using computers since 1982.
I missed the acoustic 300bps modems by a few months.  I owned an 8086 class
computer when that was all there was.  I've been using Linux almost as long as
there has been a Debian distribution.  In fact I think when I started there
was Slack and Yggdrisl (sp?) and that was it.  My first installed Debian
system was before the move to libc6.  I argued *for* Exim when it became the
default way back when because I had been running it instead of the default
(sendmail, was it?).  Since then I have had a Debian system running Exim
24/7/365 with very little downtime.

IE, I am well aware of the unix design philosophy.  I agree with it
wholeheartedly.  I am not scared of Exim or its conffile, nor Linux nor a slew
of other such assumptions that were in your rather loaded paragraph above.

 All of them, with the exception of ones that were ported from windows
 (Mozilla, Netscape), or the ones that make similarly bad design
 decisions as the Windows MUAs (kmail and any other MUA that thinks
 it's also half an MDA or MTA), because they make the safe assumption
 that transport is not the user agent's job (it's not, that's the
 transport agent's job).  

I ask again, what do those mail clients do when the MTA is not present? 
What does, for example, mutt do when for some stupid reason $MTA is
misconfigured by the user?  I asked what they did if it were unavailable. 
Unavailable can take a plethora of forms other than not installed.  User
misconfiguration, annoying BOFH which prevents users from running the local
MTA, etc.  

 Also, cron is a required component of the system, which depends on an MTA. 
 How else is it going to give users output?  Osmosis?  Telepathy?

Log files?

  Clearly it is an error condition and something must be done about
  it.
 
 Actually, I think it more clearly demonstrates that you got your idea
 of software design from the Windows world, which ignores real-world
 stability and security issues.

Uh, no.  It is an error condition.  For some reason or another the local
MTA, through user misconfiguration, lack of install, bad permissions, etc is
not available.  That is an error-condition that has to be dealt with.  What do
the clients which assume the MTA will always be there do in such an instance?

 And most people also don't like waiting on their confused half-an-MTA
 to sit there and spin when something it's tiny brain can't handle
 happens, like destination SMTP server got yanked out from under them.

Oddly enough I have never had a single mail client which does access the
MTA sit there and spin when something it's tiny brain can't handle happens. 
Every single one fails gracefully.  The most graceful was one which
automatically threw the message back into drafts and reported an error to the
status bar.  I have been, in the past 7-8 years of using clients who do their
own communicating in the client/server setup been able to go about my business
when, for one reason or another, the MTA was not available.

 At least with a real MTA operating in parallell to your MUA (the right
 way), your MUA hands it off and lets you keep moving with your day
 instead of waiting on delivery or leaving it floating around limbo in
 some outbox.

And, more often than not, it also bounces the message which forces you to
go back, clean up the bounce, try to resend when you remember and delete the
bounce.  I prefer the outbox, thanks.  The same client as above had an option
to try to send again the next time you retrieved mail.  Was quite painless
when I didn't have my connection up.  An option the MTA puked over constantly.

 If it runs into a problem, you get the bounce just as fast either way, and
 if you're offline, it'll get sent next time the link comes back up
 automatically, even if you're not logged in.

No, you get a bounce faster in the matter of just blindly handing off to
the MTA.  Oh, and to answer my oft-repeated question most MUAs

Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1042 +0200]:
 http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=

my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1013 +0200]:
 Fetchmail is super-easy as is exim.  If you can't find the example
 config in /usr/share/doc/fetchmail/examples and don't understand
 eximconfig, I've really got to question how you managed to make it
 past the installer.

fetchmail requires you to have an MDA configured, which may well be
beyond the average user. but as said: mutt supports POP3 and IMAP
out of the box.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1435 +0200]:
 Lookup DNS
 Connect
 Process
 
 That doesn't look like an MTA to me.

it does to me. it's only the smtp side, smtpd is not implemented.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Chris Metzler

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:05:37 +0100
Richard Kimber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:03:15 -0700
 Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 In fact Sylpheed-claws' reply on a list message defaults to
 reply-to-list.
 It has a reply-to-sender for list mail to which you want to reply
 directly to the sender.  Very sane, IMHO.
 
 This is also in Sylpheed itself.

Really?  Did you have to do anything funky to get that functionality,
or did it just come with the version in sid?  (I note you're running
0.9.3; I'm on 0.8.2)  I run sylpheed, am running it right now to write
this reply; and no matter which of the three reply choices I take, I
get [EMAIL PROTECTED] in my To: field rather than the list address.

-c


-- 
Chris Metzler   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(remove snip-me. to email)

As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I
have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:45:46 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1435 +0200]:
  Lookup DNS
  Connect
  Process
  
  That doesn't look like an MTA to me.
 
 it does to me. it's only the smtp side, smtpd is not implemented.

Also looks like IMAP, POP, HTTP, FTP...  Amazing that those clients can
communicate with the server, eh?  I don't see anyone here saying they are
trying to me daemons.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 10:03:12AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:

 I nominate offlineimap for the Tool of the Year 2003 Award!

Offlineimpa had severe problems with defunct threads last I saw, and yes
I filed a bug report on it.  Sadly, it got passed around with nothing
coming of it last I checked.

-- 
Jamin W. Collins

This is the typical unix way of doing things: you string together lots
of very specific tools to accomplish larger tasks. -- Vineet Kumar


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Jamin W. Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1653 +0200]:
 Offlineimpa had severe problems with defunct threads last I saw, and yes
 I filed a bug report on it.  Sadly, it got passed around with nothing
 coming of it last I checked.

What's a defunct thread? I am using it now for a couple of months,
syncing about 4000 messages/day between five machines, and I have
yet to experience the slightest problem. My only complaint is that
it does not really handle network downtime gracefully but just
hangs...

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 05:07:59PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 Jamin W. Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1653 +0200]:
  Offlineimpa had severe problems with defunct threads last I saw, and
  yes I filed a bug report on it.  Sadly, it got passed around with
  nothing coming of it last I checked.
 
 What's a defunct thread? I am using it now for a couple of months,
 syncing about 4000 messages/day between five machines, and I have yet
 to experience the slightest problem. My only complaint is that it does
 not really handle network downtime gracefully but just hangs...

Details are in the bug reports:
   
   http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=162369
   http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470atid=105470func=detailaid=621548

Basically a thread that is started, has finished or hung, and is not
closed.  Enough of these and your system will become more or less
unusable since eventually it will be at it's thread limit and not be
able to fork a new process.  Which was how I found the problem. 

I seem to recall someone indicating that it may have been my use of the
TK based frontend to offlineimap, but I don't seem to be able to find a
link to that one.

-- 
Jamin W. Collins

This is the typical unix way of doing things: you string together lots
of very specific tools to accomplish larger tasks. -- Vineet Kumar


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Richard Kimber

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:07:54 -0400
Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  This is also in Sylpheed itself.
 
 Really?  Did you have to do anything funky to get that functionality,
 or did it just come with the version in sid?  (I note you're running
 0.9.3; I'm on 0.8.2)  I run sylpheed, am running it right now to write
 this reply; and no matter which of the three reply choices I take, I
 get [EMAIL PROTECTED] in my To: field rather than the list address.

I think it was introduced in version 0.8.4.  Reply-to-list is the default
behaviour and it falls back to a normal reply if ML address is not found.
There are also menu options to override the default if you wish in a given
instance.  It's a great improvement.

I don't use the Debian packages.  I download the src and just compile it. 
It always compiles for me without problem. No doubt I would make my own
debs if I knew how, but I've always found the documentation on this
obscure.

- Richard.
-- 
Richard Kimber
http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:41:56PM +0100, Richard Kimber wrote:
 I don't use the Debian packages.  I download the src and just compile it. 
 It always compiles for me without problem. No doubt I would make my own
 debs if I knew how, but I've always found the documentation on this
 obscure.

Yeah, I'd love it if there was something more in the form of a concise
HOWTO.  If there is one, I haven't found it but would love to be
proven wrong.  God knows I would package everything I compile on my
own and throw up my own private apt-repository until I got confident
enough to apply as a DD.

Which brings me to a question.  Hey, all you Debian Developers!  Do
you put the fact you're a DD on your resume?

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 02:40:50PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 fetchmail requires you to have an MDA configured, which may well be
 beyond the average user.

Wait, since when?  I ran fetchmail *long* before I ran procmail...

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread MJM

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 00:33, Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote:

 | I use KMail - is it being lame?

 Yes.  Or, possibly, it has a list reply feature that you haven't found
 yet.  I can't say for certain because I don't use it.

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 03:19, Joerg Johannes wrote:

 I use kmail too. I am filtering the debian-user mailing list to a
 seperate folder called debian-user (smart, eh? ;) ) with the builtin
 filter options. I use the X-Mailing-List:  header for that. The
 folder options are set to folder contains a mailing list and the
 mailing-list adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Now when you reply
 to a thread, you want to hit the l button (ell) instead of r This
 will reply to the list.

Right. Found the Reply-to-list menu item.  Keystroke is lower case ell and 
not the upper case ell as noted in the menu.  Used it to compose this reply.

I *enjoyed* the discussion.  As a code wonk in embedded systems for most my 
career I missed out on the joys of actually knowing how email systems worked. 
Combination MTA/MDA/MUA mail clients prolonged and supported my ignorance. 
This thread helped me fathom the depth of my ignorance.

I am keen to leave KMail and KDE because it just stops working at times - 
infrequently and aperiodically, but too often to ignore now.  It usually 
breaks when I click once too often in Konqueror or bring up some KFubar 
application. More PITA.  So my thinking is that KDE, Gnome, and others like 
them are too much stuff too tightly integrated with too many test cases for 
even the OS community.  I want to return to 1993 and reclaim some reliability 
and control in exchange for pretty uni-style GUIs that are akin to living in 
a modern suburb where all the houses and stores look alike and there are 
covenants.  I prefer the one job - one program approach.  It will do me good 
I think to know the MTA/MDA/MUA components individually.

I checked KMail for the possibility of accessing more than one smtp host - my 
version (standard Debian stable package of KDE) seems to support only one 
host.  So I would have to set up more than one user account to access more 
than one smtp host.  I have one ISP and many various POP accounts so I think 
the Exim-Mutt combination will work well in my case.

I have witnessed KMail spinning around when the smtp host is unavailable (not 
as frequent with my cable access as compared to my old DSL access). I would 
actually prefer instance notification of inability to send.  

As for Mutt having a vi editor, I thought that was pretty cool actually :-).

Again, thanks for the considerable effort in this thread.  I, for one, 
learned a lot.  It also spared the list some simple questions I was bound to 
ask.
-- 
Mike Mueller


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:41:56 +0100
Richard Kimber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't use the Debian packages.  I download the src and just compile it. 
 It always compiles for me without problem. No doubt I would make my own
 debs if I knew how, but I've always found the documentation on this
 obscure.

I recently put together my first package from scratch.  These instructions
were quite helpful:
http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/

Of course there is a world of difference between what I had put together
(par2cmdline) and sylpheed-claws.  For larger packages I just want a later
version of what I generally do is download the updated source, download the
source from apt (apt-get source foo), copy the debian directory over and try
doing an unsigned binary build to see if it works.  That method worked nicely
for a personal build of slrn 0.9.7.0 when I neded SSL compiled in and most
recently the 0.14.0.90 beta of Pan.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread MJM

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 11:55, Paul Johnson wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:41:56PM +0100, Richard Kimber wrote:
  I don't use the Debian packages.  I download the src and just compile it.
  It always compiles for me without problem. No doubt I would make my own
  debs if I knew how, but I've always found the documentation on this
  obscure.

 Yeah, I'd love it if there was something more in the form of a concise
 HOWTO.  If there is one, I haven't found it but would love to be
 proven wrong.  God knows I would package everything I compile on my
 own and throw up my own private apt-repository until I got confident
 enough to apply as a DD.

Go around your arse to scratch your elbow method:  build an RPM and use alien 
to make a .deb from the .rpm.  

-- 
Mike Mueller


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Emma Jane Hogbin

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 12:14:34PM -0400, MJM wrote:
 application. More PITA.  So my thinking is that KDE, Gnome, and others like 
 them are too much stuff too tightly integrated with too many test cases for 
 even the OS community.  I want to return to 1993 and reclaim some reliability 
 and control in exchange for pretty uni-style GUIs that are akin to living in 

If you are thinking about replacements for KDE and Gnome you may want to
check out: Fluxbox and/or Blackbox (fluxbox is based on blackbox).
http://fluxbox.sf.net
http://blackboxwm.sourceforge.net/

These are window managers, NOT full desktop environments with lots of
config tools. Seeing as I do
most of my configuration through a prompt anyway these are perfect for me.
I've used fluxbox for nearly a year now and really love it. I've never
tried blackbox but those who like it swear by it. I still use a number of
KDE tools (e.g. color picker and screen shot tool) but that's all I ever
wanted from KDE--just one or two things.

 As for Mutt having a vi editor, I thought that was pretty cool actually :-).

You can always change your editor to something else as well.

emma

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1755 +0200]:
 Yeah, I'd love it if there was something more in the form of a concise
 HOWTO.  If there is one, I haven't found it but would love to be
 proven wrong.  God knows I would package everything I compile on my
 own and throw up my own private apt-repository until I got confident
 enough to apply as a DD.

I am not sure there is one. I just learnt by doing. You have the
lists, and other packages as reference material. However, if you
were to write one, then I would be happy to help you with any
questions!

 Which brings me to a question.  Hey, all you Debian Developers!  Do
 you put the fact you're a DD on your resume?

Sure!

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1756 +0200]:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 02:40:50PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
  fetchmail requires you to have an MDA configured, which may well be
  beyond the average user.
 
 Wait, since when?  I ran fetchmail *long* before I ran procmail...

fetchmail can either forward mail to an MTA (which is also an MDA in
certain configurations), or it can pass it off to an MDA (e.g.
procmail). If you used it before procmail, then you passed mails off
to exim or postfix or the like, which can act as MDAs if you don't
tell it to use procmail or another MDA instead.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Colin Watson

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 08:55:16AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
 Which brings me to a question.  Hey, all you Debian Developers!  Do
 you put the fact you're a DD on your resume?

Yes. It's a significant part of my free-time work and experience, so it
deserves to be there. I suspect it may have been a contributing factor
in getting my current job.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Bijan Soleymani


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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 06:19:02PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1756 +0200]:
  On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 02:40:50PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
   fetchmail requires you to have an MDA configured, which may well be
   beyond the average user.
 =20
  Wait, since when?  I ran fetchmail *long* before I ran procmail...
=20
 fetchmail can either forward mail to an MTA (which is also an MDA in
 certain configurations), or it can pass it off to an MDA (e.g.
 procmail). If you used it before procmail, then you passed mails off
 to exim or postfix or the like, which can act as MDAs if you don't
 tell it to use procmail or another MDA instead.

I remember having fetchmail deliver my mail to /dev/null after having
misconfigured my MTA. I installed one of those Sending Only MTAs to
use with mutt, and didn't realize that meant that fetchmail would pass
it the mail and it would happily vaporize it.

I think there's a patch out there to get SMTP support into mutt. I'm
going to compile that in one of these days, and free myself of all this
MTA madness :)

Bijan

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach MJM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1819 +0200]:
 Go around your arse to scratch your elbow method:  build an RPM
 and use alien to make a .deb from the .rpm.  

NO! do it right!

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Emma Jane Hogbin [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1827 +0200]:
 If you are thinking about replacements for KDE and Gnome you may want to
 check out: Fluxbox and/or Blackbox (fluxbox is based on blackbox).
   http://fluxbox.sf.net
   http://blackboxwm.sourceforge.net/

or: WindowMaker!

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Nathan E Norman

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:14:52AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 10:01:47AM +0200, Joerg Johannes wrote:
  And kmail has one major advantage: I can read mails 
  with over-long lines without problems...
 
 So can mutt, but the ultimate solution is to tell your correspondants
 not to send email in a retarded manner.

Besides, SMTP _does_ have a line-length limit.  There was a thread in
the past few months either here or d-curiosa where someone wanted to
know why their one-line emails seemed to get truncated after about
1000 characters.  RFC2822 section 2.1.1 has all the gory details ...

-- 
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  People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of
  thought which they avoid.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Derrick 'dman' Hudson

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 12:14:34PM -0400, MJM wrote:

| I checked KMail for the possibility of accessing more than one smtp host - my 
| version (standard Debian stable package of KDE) seems to support only one 
| host.

This is normal.  In practice you don't really need to send mail out
through more than one SMTP server.

| So I would have to set up more than one user account to access more 
| than one smtp host.  I have one ISP and many various POP accounts

POP != SMTP.  I suspect that KMail can retrieve from multiple POP
accounts, though it will only send through one SMTP server.

| so I think the Exim-Mutt combination will work well in my case.

Yes, it probably will, if you like having finer grained control over
things.

| As for Mutt having a vi editor, I thought that was pretty cool actually :-).

It uses the editor of your choice :-).

-D

-- 
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread nori heikkinen

on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:40:06PM +0200, martin f krafft insinuated:
 also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1042 +0200]:
  http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
 
 my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.

but suppose you want to then see it in a browser?

/nori

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   // \\  @ maenad.net
  /(   )\   www.maenad.net
   ^`~'^
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:10:50PM -0400, nori heikkinen wrote:
 on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:40:06PM +0200, martin f krafft insinuated:
  also sprach Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1042 +0200]:
   http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
  
  my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.
 
 but suppose you want to then see it in a browser?

CTRL+B

-- 
Jamin W. Collins

This is the typical unix way of doing things: you string together lots
of very specific tools to accomplish larger tasks. -- Vineet Kumar


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach nori heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2110 +0200]:
   http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
  
  my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.
 
 but suppose you want to then see it in a browser?

apt-get install urlview
man urlview

then hit ctrl-b in the index or while viewing the message.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach Derrick 'dman' Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2057 +0200]:
 | So I would have to set up more than one user account to access more 
 | than one smtp host.  I have one ISP and many various POP accounts
 
 POP != SMTP.  I suspect that KMail can retrieve from multiple POP
 accounts, though it will only send through one SMTP server.

Mozilla can send via multiple SMTP servers depending on which From
identity you choose. I think KMail can too. mutt cannot, even with
the SMTP patch. That's what postfix is for.

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread nori heikkinen

on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:36PM +0200, martin f krafft insinuated:
 also sprach nori heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2110 +0200]:
http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
   
   my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.
  
  but suppose you want to then see it in a browser?
 
 apt-get install urlview
 man urlview
 
 then hit ctrl-b in the index or while viewing the message.

oh, i see what you mean.  but that will only work locally, right?
right now i read my email off xterms from one machine, while using a
browser local to another.

guess i'm SOL?

/nori

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:24:00PM -0400, nori heikkinen wrote:
 on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:36PM +0200, martin f krafft insinuated:
 
  then hit ctrl-b in the index or while viewing the message.
 
 oh, i see what you mean.  but that will only work locally, right?
 right now i read my email off xterms from one machine, while using a
 browser local to another.

Just used it with X forwarding here.  Depends on your bandwidth, etc.

-- 
Jamin W. Collins

This is the typical unix way of doing things: you string together lots
of very specific tools to accomplish larger tasks. -- Vineet Kumar


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Vineet Kumar

* nori heikkinen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030716 13:24]:
 on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:36PM +0200, martin f krafft insinuated:
  also sprach nori heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2110 +0200]:
 http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=

my mutt has no problems with that, and neither does urlview.
   
   but suppose you want to then see it in a browser?
  
  apt-get install urlview
  man urlview
  
  then hit ctrl-b in the index or while viewing the message.
 
 oh, i see what you mean.  but that will only work locally, right?
 right now i read my email off xterms from one machine, while using a
 browser local to another.

Does the remote machine have a webserver?  You could set your
urlhandler to append the URL to a bookmarks-style file, then just
navigate to that page locally, and click the last link.

Or it could even rewrite an .htaccess so that a particular location
automatically redirects to the most recent url processed by urlhandler,
and then you have a bookmark to that location on your local browser.

If you have no web server, you could try to feed it into a 'mozilla
-remote' somehow.  If you only have one-way connectivity (you can only
connect _to_ the remote box, and not initiate a 'reverse' connection),
you could just have the urlhandler dump the URL in a file in a known
location, and run a script locally that does something like 'mozilla
-remote openurl($(ssh remotehost cat urlfile))' (that's just for proof
of concept; I'm sure it wouldn't run as is -- especially not without
being more careful about quotes).

Anyway, just a few ideas.  I don't think you're SOL just yet.

Of course, for the particular URL in question, this much will suffice:

http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386

=)

good times,
Vineet
-- 
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-- 
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int main() {
puts(Reader! Think not that \n
 technical information \n
 ought not be called speech;);
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}


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Derrick 'dman' Hudson

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 05:35:08AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
| On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:14:42 -0700
| Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|  Because it's pointless and un-necissary to impliment the better part
|  of an MTA into an MUA.
| 
| Which is why you don't do that.  Smarthost doesn't need a full blown MTA
| to do it.  This is smarthost behavior.  Here are the steps involved:
| 
| Lookup DNS
| Connect
| Process
| 
| That doesn't look like an MTA to me.

As Martin points out, the Process step you listed is a concise way
of describing the job of an MTA.  The details of Process are defined
in RFC 821, superseded by RFC 2821.  Reading discussions between mail
server admins on a few different lists reveals that many MUAs don't
properly (or even *reasoanbly*) handle most of the potential error
conditions that can arise while trying to send a message.

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 06:59:23AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

| Also looks like IMAP, POP, HTTP, FTP...  Amazing that those clients
| can communicate with the server, eh?  I don't see anyone here saying
| they are trying to me daemons.

The difference is that a MUA is _supposed_ to implement IMAP, and it
implements it correctly and as a client.  The same goes for POP.  Now
why in the world would you want HTTP or FTP in your MUA!?  I use a
web browser when I want to browse the web :-).  But again, the browser
correctly implements its responsibilities as an HTTP client and the
issue doesn't arise.  Well, actually, IE doesn't -- thus when there is
an error of any sort it simply drools and says duh  but doesn't
help you to identify or correct the problem.  That's the biggest
problem with a MUA trying to be half of an MTA.  Most (all?) of them
don't succeed at doing that.

-D

-- 
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.
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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

2003-07-16 Thread Derrick 'dman' Hudson

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:00:57PM -0400, Bijan Soleymani wrote:

| I remember having fetchmail deliver my mail to /dev/null after having
| misconfigured my MTA. I installed one of those Sending Only MTAs to
| use with mutt, and didn't realize that meant that fetchmail would pass
| it the mail and it would happily vaporize it.

Which send-only MTA was that?  If fetchmail was able to pass the mail
to it, then that means it was listening on port 25 (and pretending to
handle incoming mail) ... and it means I'll definitely avoid such
horrendous program design/implementation.

-D

-- 
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but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
Proverbs 12:18
 
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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:42:49AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
| On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:14:52 -0700
| Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 10:01:47AM +0200, Joerg Johannes wrote:
| And kmail has one major advantage: I can read mails
| with over-long lines without problems...

mutt can use whatever pager you choose for displaying mails. It's up
to your pager to display content nicely. The pager I am currently
using, in its current setup, doesn't do the best job of automatic line
wrapping for display, but that's my choice to use this pager.

| So can mutt, but the ultimate solution is to tell your correspondants
| not to send email in a retarded manner.

For prose and the like, this is the best action.

|
http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=18496386AVSDM=2003%2D07%2D16+00%3A13%3A00CCD=my%2Emonster%2EcomJSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2EcomHD=company%2Emonster%2EcomAD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fbrd%3D1%2C1862%2C1863%26lid%3D316%26fn%3D543%26fn%3D6%26fn%3D660%26fn%3D554%26jt%3D2%26q%3D%26tm%3D%26cy%3DUS%26sq%3D%26col%3DdltciLogo=1col=dltcicy=USbrd=1%2C1862%2C1863lid=316fn=543%2C+6%2C+660%2C+554q=
|
| How is that in a retarded manner? Breaking up that line would mean the
| end user would need to piece it back together. :P

This sub-thread also brings up the issue of really broken software.
I've received some emails in the past where a paragraph didn't include
any line breaks, and the line was truncated at around 1000 characters.
Any function MUA will ensure that the physical lines sent through
the transport has fewer than 1000 characters. Note that this doesn't
change the message itself, only the encoding. Additionally, a robust
MTA that follows Jon Postel's be liberal in what you accept and
strict in what you send policy will re-encode any invalid messages so
as to ensure no loss of data later in the pipeline (postfix does this)
even though the other MTAs are not incorrect in truncating excessively
long lines.

-D

--
Pride only breeds quarrels,
but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
Proverbs 13:10

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What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

2003-07-16 Thread MJM

On Wednesday 16 July 2003 13:44, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach MJM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1819 +0200]:
  Go around your arse to scratch your elbow method:  build an RPM
  and use alien to make a .deb from the .rpm.

 NO! do it right!

I wasn't serious, but after skimming the package maintainers guide to see 
what the right way is I can see why alien would not be liked.  Why on earth 
did the people deciding what packages to include allow the alien package to 
be released?  It seems like instructions and tools for peeing in the pool.
-- 
Mike Mueller


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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

also sprach nori heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2224 +0200]:
 oh, i see what you mean.  but that will only work locally, right?
 right now i read my email off xterms from one machine, while using a
 browser local to another.

from url_handlers.sh:

# Any entry in the lists of programs that urlview handler will try out will
# be made of /path/to/program + ':' + TAG where TAG is one of
# PW: X11 program intended to live on after urlview's caller exits.
# XW: X11 program
# XT: Launch with an xterm if possible or as VT if not
# VT: Launch in the same terminal

# The lists of programs to be executed are
http_prgs=/usr/bin/x-www-browser:PW /usr/bin/www-browser:XT
  /usr/bin/galeon:PW /usr/bin/konqueror:PW /usr/bin/mozilla:PW
  /usr/bin/lynx:XT /usr/bin/w3m:XT /usr/bin/links:XT
  /usr/bin/X11/netscape:PW
https_prgs=$http_prgs

So yes, if you are working remotely (and X forwarding is not
enabled), then it will try to launch lynx, w3m, links in that order.
If X forwarding is enabled, it will forward the respective GUI
browser.

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Re: What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

also sprach MJM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2306 +0200]:
 I wasn't serious, but after skimming the package maintainers guide
 to see what the right way is I can see why alien would not be
 liked.  Why on earth did the people deciding what packages to
 include allow the alien package to be released?  It seems like
 instructions and tools for peeing in the pool.

it comes in handy when a program is distributed only as RPM (the
only one I dealt with is Check Point FW-1) and you want to run it on
a Debian system.

it should *never* be used with the intent to package something for
Debian. even though it does what it does rather well, RPMs are
mostly not FHS compliant, nor do they meet up with Debian's quality.
You can do better with debhelper and save time if you take into
account the long-term fuckups incurred by letting RPMs into your
system. Debian is Debian because it's high-quality. RPM is capable
of a lot (so this ain't no RPM bashin'), it's just too popular and
not governed by quality control such as DEB.

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Re: What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

2003-07-16 Thread Colin Watson

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 05:06:15PM -0400, MJM wrote:
 On Wednesday 16 July 2003 13:44, martin f krafft wrote:
  also sprach MJM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.1819 +0200]:
   Go around your arse to scratch your elbow method:  build an RPM
   and use alien to make a .deb from the .rpm.
 
  NO! do it right!
 
 I wasn't serious, but after skimming the package maintainers guide to see 
 what the right way is I can see why alien would not be liked.  Why on earth 
 did the people deciding what packages to include allow the alien package to 
 be released?  It seems like instructions and tools for peeing in the pool.

Er, no, the .rpm - .deb direction is distinctly useful, not to mention
required for LSB compliance ...

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:45:40 -0400
Derrick 'dman' Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 As Martin points out, the Process step you listed is a concise way
 of describing the job of an MTA.  The details of Process are defined
 in RFC 821, superseded by RFC 2821.

The details of process is quite small.  Here, I've not gone and read
821/822 in a few years and haven't pawed through the 2xxx variants at all.

helo foo.bar
mail from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
rcpt to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
data
insert message here, be careful to escape those periods, people!
.
quit

Processing boils down to this:
You lose connection, error condition.
You get a 5xx error, error condition.
You get a 4xx error, error condition.

In all cases fail the message, set it aside and wait for the user to
decide.  Of course that wait, as I have indicated, doesn't mean throw an
error and fail to do anything else until the user does decide something.

It is /not/ that much more complex than doing a system call on
/lib/sendmail (that one always cracks me up) and checking the return value
from the shell.  You get an error, fail the message, set it aside and wait for
the user.

Anyway, if you call that being an MTA then you have a grossly
underestimated opinion of what an MTA does.  That is simply access the MTA
through a different means.  It isn't trying to *be* an MTA.

Now, I know I have oversimplified the process.  I also know that there are
a lot of steps left out which would not nor should not EVER be placed in a
mail client.  Far more steps that I've glossed over.  It doesn't invalidate
that the client sould (must) speak enough to do one thing.  Here, deliver
this.

 Reading discussions between mail server admins on a few different lists
 reveals that many MUAs don't properly (or even *reasoanbly*) handle most of
 the potential error conditions that can arise while trying to send a
 message.

Of course, with some examples I've seen that can't even handle the local
MTA not being there it isn't any wonder.  The clients I've used are not on
that list.

 | Also looks like IMAP, POP, HTTP, FTP...  Amazing that those clients
 | can communicate with the server, eh?  I don't see anyone here saying
 | they are trying to me daemons.
 
 The difference is that a MUA is _supposed_ to implement IMAP, and it
 implements it correctly and as a client.

And a mail *client* should implement the protocols needed to perform its
function in the server/CLIENT setup.  Those protocols are SMTP/POP/IMAP.

 Now why in the world would you want HTTP or FTP in your MUA!?  
 I use a web browser when I want to browse the web :-).  But again, the
 browser correctly implements its responsibilities as an HTTP client and the
 issue doesn't arise.

Exactly.  That's my point.  You don't use a Web User Agent which has to
access the remote sites through a Web Transport Agent, do you?  You *can*,
it's called a proxy server but even then it is still speaking the same
protocol.  In the internet world people seem to think that mail clients are
the only clients which should not ever touch the protocol(s) they are supposed
to speak while not thinking anything about every other client they use on
a daily basis not being broken down in the same manner.

 Well, actually, IE doesn't-- thus when there is an error of any sort it
 simply drools and says duh  but doesn't help you to identify or
 correct the problem.  

And yet I doubt you're claiming that since IE is stupid all web browsers
should now go through a web transfer agent nor saying IE is trying to be a web
server.  You're calling it for what it is, a fooked up web client.

 That's the biggest problem with a MUA trying to be half of an MTA.  Most
 (all?) of them don't succeed at doing that.

Examples?  As I said, what do all these wonderful MUAs you prefer do when
the MTA isn't available for that precious system call?  It is the exact same
error condition.  The only difference is the method of contacting the MTA. 
One is system(), the other is a port.

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Re: What good is Alien? (was Re: OT: why I don't want CCs)

also sprach Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.07.16.2335 +0200]:
 Er, no, the .rpm - .deb direction is distinctly useful, not to mention
 required for LSB compliance ...

... which Debian has achieved since when?

In fact, let me rephrase: are we ever going to be LSB-compliant?

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Re: OT: why I don't want CCs