Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 04:26:06AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/10/2021 03:45 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Ma, 09 mar 21, 14:35:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 03/09/2021 07:00 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: > > > > > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an > > > > > > upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports > > > > > > site (for your processor and distribution type). i just > > > > > > had an issue with a new device not being recognized and > > > > > > updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to > > > > > be > > > > > kernel related. > > > > > > > > > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot > > > > > process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. > > > > > > > > Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, any > > > > (error) messages on screen, etc. > > > > > > > > I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at the > > > > BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you imply > > > > it's later. > > > > > > I think there are 2 separate states of the Linkzone may have when > > > attempting > > > to boot the PC. > > > > > > 1. The Linkzone is off but plugged into the PC. > > > Boot appeared normal. > > > > > > 2. The Linkzone is turned on and I have waited for its indicator lights to > > > indicate connection to network. > > > This time the the screen was looping very quickly repeating that it > > > was > > > attempting to reset a USB device. > > > > > > What log should I look in for such an error message? > > > I know I've seen description of how to interpret the boot process to > > > gather > > > information. But where? > > > > The boot process has three major stages. > > > > 1. POST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_self-test > > 2. Bootloader (grub, etc.) > > 3. Operating System (in this case Debian) > > > > In which of the above stages does the boot hang? > > In yesterday's case, it was definitely case 3. > In the case of getting a hang with blank screen I suspect it also was case > 3, but I wasn't recording detailed symptoms the last time it happened. > > I all cases I've heard the beep from POST. > > > > > > I suspect also there is a subset of Case 2 -- The LinkZone had been used > > > to > > > interact with a website before being plugged into the PC under test. > > > > Sorry, can't imagine how a modem can be used to "interact with a web > > page" without being connected to a PC. > > Consider this sequence of events. > 1. PC and LinkZone powered off > 2. Turn on PC > 3. Debian boots normally > 4. Turn on LinkZone > 5. Browse a web site > 6. Shut off PC power leaving LinkZone running on its battery > 7. Wait > 8. Turn on PC > 9. Failure occurs > Consider that the 4G connectivity device from the ISP probably needs to be on BEFORE the PC connects to it. [I swear we've had almost exactly this message before in one of the other threads]. The hotspot connects to 4G then serves out DHCP addresses - if you were using WiFi, you'd get a WiFi connection. The hotspot is probably not meant to be switched on and off repeatedly but to be used for a peroiod of hours per session. 1. Turn hotspot on. Check that it is working by using the app and/or connecting another device and checking connectivity. 2. Boot Debian. 3. Obtain Web connectivity *Profit* If you're turning the PC on and off with a USB device physically connected, it's no wonder that things get confused - *especially* if USB enumeration is unclear as to what sort of device it is. I note also that you apparently have a cap of 2GB per month: in that situation I'd not use a netinst to install anything but it does seem a crazily low data amount for 30 days. > All best, as ever, Andy C.
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Mi, 10 mar 21, 08:49:06, Richard Owlett wrote: > > Looking at /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian prompts me to ask: > "What logs might be created when attempting to run a netinst.iso?" The Debian Installation Guide should have more information on the Installer's logs and where they are to be found on the final install. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/10/2021 07:29 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 10 mar 21, 04:26:06, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 03/10/2021 03:45 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
The boot process has three major stages.
1. POST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_self-test
2. Bootloader (grub, etc.)
3. Operating System (in this case Debian)
In which of the above stages does the boot hang?
In yesterday's case, it was definitely case 3.
In the case of getting a hang with blank screen I suspect it also was case
3, but I wasn't recording detailed symptoms the last time it happened.
I all cases I've heard the beep from POST.
Well, it should be pretty obvious if you are past the bootloader (grub)
stage or not ;)
Assuming the hang happens in the OS stage a first step would be to
remove 'quiet' from the boot command line. Both the kernel and systemd
(assuming the boot is progressing that far) should be significantly more
verbose then.
Consider this sequence of events.
1. PC and LinkZone powered off
2. Turn on PC
3. Debian boots normally
4. Turn on LinkZone
5. Browse a web site
6. Shut off PC power leaving LinkZone running on its battery
7. Wait
8. Turn on PC
9. Failure occurs
After a failed boot you could try to boot normally and check the output
of
journalctl -alb -1
('-1' means the logs from the previous boot)
Based on the timestamps you should be able to determine whether this is
the failed boot (assuming it got far enough to save the logs to
persistent storage) or the previous one.
This may not work unless you enable persistent storage for
systemd-journal (see /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian).
I may not be able to do until tomorrow as I have errands to run before
much rain in next several days.
Looking at /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian prompts me to ask:
"What logs might be created when attempting to run a netinst.iso?"
I have a spare laptop whose HDD I can wipe and use for experiments.
My mindset still shows influence of doing component level debug in
mid/late 70's. I just have no pre-retirement *nix experience.
Any other reading assignments?
My motto:
If retirement is not for learning, what use is it?
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Mi, 10 mar 21, 04:26:06, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/10/2021 03:45 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > The boot process has three major stages.
> >
> > 1. POST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_self-test
> > 2. Bootloader (grub, etc.)
> > 3. Operating System (in this case Debian)
> >
> > In which of the above stages does the boot hang?
>
> In yesterday's case, it was definitely case 3.
> In the case of getting a hang with blank screen I suspect it also was case
> 3, but I wasn't recording detailed symptoms the last time it happened.
>
> I all cases I've heard the beep from POST.
Well, it should be pretty obvious if you are past the bootloader (grub)
stage or not ;)
Assuming the hang happens in the OS stage a first step would be to
remove 'quiet' from the boot command line. Both the kernel and systemd
(assuming the boot is progressing that far) should be significantly more
verbose then.
> Consider this sequence of events.
> 1. PC and LinkZone powered off
> 2. Turn on PC
> 3. Debian boots normally
> 4. Turn on LinkZone
> 5. Browse a web site
> 6. Shut off PC power leaving LinkZone running on its battery
> 7. Wait
> 8. Turn on PC
> 9. Failure occurs
After a failed boot you could try to boot normally and check the output
of
journalctl -alb -1
('-1' means the logs from the previous boot)
Based on the timestamps you should be able to determine whether this is
the failed boot (assuming it got far enough to save the logs to
persistent storage) or the previous one.
This may not work unless you enable persistent storage for
systemd-journal (see /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian).
Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/10/2021 03:45 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 09 mar 21, 14:35:54, Richard Owlett wrote: On 03/09/2021 07:00 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: ... before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports site (for your processor and distribution type). i just had an issue with a new device not being recognized and updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after that. The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to be kernel related. If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, any (error) messages on screen, etc. I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at the BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you imply it's later. I think there are 2 separate states of the Linkzone may have when attempting to boot the PC. 1. The Linkzone is off but plugged into the PC. Boot appeared normal. 2. The Linkzone is turned on and I have waited for its indicator lights to indicate connection to network. This time the the screen was looping very quickly repeating that it was attempting to reset a USB device. What log should I look in for such an error message? I know I've seen description of how to interpret the boot process to gather information. But where? The boot process has three major stages. 1. POST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_self-test 2. Bootloader (grub, etc.) 3. Operating System (in this case Debian) In which of the above stages does the boot hang? In yesterday's case, it was definitely case 3. In the case of getting a hang with blank screen I suspect it also was case 3, but I wasn't recording detailed symptoms the last time it happened. I all cases I've heard the beep from POST. I suspect also there is a subset of Case 2 -- The LinkZone had been used to interact with a website before being plugged into the PC under test. Sorry, can't imagine how a modem can be used to "interact with a web page" without being connected to a PC. Consider this sequence of events. 1. PC and LinkZone powered off 2. Turn on PC 3. Debian boots normally 4. Turn on LinkZone 5. Browse a web site 6. Shut off PC power leaving LinkZone running on its battery 7. Wait 8. Turn on PC 9. Failure occurs
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Ma, 09 mar 21, 14:35:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/09/2021 07:00 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: > > > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an > > > > upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports > > > > site (for your processor and distribution type). i just > > > > had an issue with a new device not being recognized and > > > > updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to be > > > kernel related. > > > > > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot > > > process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. > > > > Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, any > > (error) messages on screen, etc. > > > > I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at the > > BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you imply > > it's later. > > I think there are 2 separate states of the Linkzone may have when attempting > to boot the PC. > > 1. The Linkzone is off but plugged into the PC. >Boot appeared normal. > > 2. The Linkzone is turned on and I have waited for its indicator lights to > indicate connection to network. > This time the the screen was looping very quickly repeating that it was > attempting to reset a USB device. > > What log should I look in for such an error message? > I know I've seen description of how to interpret the boot process to gather > information. But where? The boot process has three major stages. 1. POST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_self-test 2. Bootloader (grub, etc.) 3. Operating System (in this case Debian) In which of the above stages does the boot hang? > I suspect also there is a subset of Case 2 -- The LinkZone had been used to > interact with a website before being plugged into the PC under test. Sorry, can't imagine how a modem can be used to "interact with a web page" without being connected to a PC. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/09/2021 07:00 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: ... before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports site (for your processor and distribution type). i just had an issue with a new device not being recognized and updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after that. The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to be kernel related. If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, any (error) messages on screen, etc. I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at the BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you imply it's later. Kind regards, Andrei I think there are 2 separate states of the Linkzone may have when attempting to boot the PC. 1. The Linkzone is off but plugged into the PC. Boot appeared normal. 2. The Linkzone is turned on and I have waited for its indicator lights to indicate connection to network. This time the the screen was looping very quickly repeating that it was attempting to reset a USB device. What log should I look in for such an error message? I know I've seen description of how to interpret the boot process to gather information. But where? I suspect also there is a subset of Case 2 -- The LinkZone had been used to interact with a website before being plugged into the PC under test. I recall having seen the "reset USB device" looping message before but sometimes there has just been a blank screen. HTH
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:00:07 +0200 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: > > On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: > > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an > > > upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports > > > site (for your processor and distribution type). i just > > > had an issue with a new device not being recognized and > > > updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after > > > that. > > > > > > > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical > > to be kernel related. > > > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the > > boot process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. > > Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, > any (error) messages on screen, etc. > > I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at > the BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you > imply it's later. > Yes, it's fairly common. My desktop (Gigabyte MB, mumble-mumble years old) does it. Only with some things: it won't try to boot from a Kindle or mobile phone, but it will try from a USB stick. Depends on the filesystem/protocol, I suppose. What it won't do is give up after a time and try the next device, it will just hang permanently. -- Joe
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Tue, 09 Mar 2021 14:57:47 +0200 Anssi Saari wrote: > Richard Owlett writes: > > > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical > > to be kernel related. > > > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the > > boot process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. > > I have a guess then. Maybe the Linkzone comes up as a storage device > and has to be specifically instructed to become a modem. This was a > common deal with old cellular USB sticks as I recall. A full Linux OS > usually has something to do this switch while an installer doesn't > necessarily. > > As a side note, Google tells me the Linkzone uses bog standard > cdc_ether and rndis_host drivers, same as what USB modems and Android > phones commonly use. > > Usbswitch was the software, and I don't think systemd needs it. A long time since I used a mobile dongle. -- Joe
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Ma, 09 mar 21, 06:32:33, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > ... > > > > before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an > > upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports > > site (for your processor and distribution type). i just > > had an issue with a new device not being recognized and > > updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after > > that. > > > > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to be > kernel related. > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot > process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. Please also provide info like the exact stage of the boot process, any (error) messages on screen, etc. I've seen this symptom with a laptop before, though it would hang at the BIOS stage (it was probably trying to boot from it), while you imply it's later. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
Richard Owlett writes: > The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to > be kernel related. > > If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot > process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected. I have a guess then. Maybe the Linkzone comes up as a storage device and has to be specifically instructed to become a modem. This was a common deal with old cellular USB sticks as I recall. A full Linux OS usually has something to do this switch while an installer doesn't necessarily. As a side note, Google tells me the Linkzone uses bog standard cdc_ether and rndis_host drivers, same as what USB modems and Android phones commonly use.
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: ... before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports site (for your processor and distribution type). i just had an issue with a new device not being recognized and updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after that. The more I think about my observed symptoms, it would seem logical to be kernel related. If the Linkzone is physically connected when PC is turned on, the boot process will hang until the Linkzone is disconnected.
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
Richard Owlett wrote: ... > If it's a kernel issue, I'll just wait for Debian 11. I had essentially > tried the 10.8 netinst to get instant gratification of moving from 32 to > 64 bits in one day rather than one week. certainly understandable. :) hope it works well for you! songbird
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/08/2021 10:18 AM, songbird wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: ... before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports site (for your processor and distribution type). i just had an issue with a new device not being recognized and updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after that. If it's a kernel issue, I'll just wait for Debian 11. I had essentially tried the 10.8 netinst to get instant gratification of moving from 32 to 64 bits in one day rather than one week. Thanks
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
Richard Owlett wrote: ... before chasing down this rabbit hole, see if there is an upgrade for your current kernel on the debian backports site (for your processor and distribution type). i just had an issue with a new device not being recognized and updated my kernel (for stretch) and it worked fine after that. songbird
Re: Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 06:06:17AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/03/2021 09:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 .
> > I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine.
> > debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved.
> > It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted.
> > Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet.
> >
> > To eliminate possibility that second was itself defective I attempted a
> > multi-boot install to the first machine [Dell Latitude E6410].
> > Essentially same result :{
> >
> > Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot.
> > The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is effectively
> > just a modem).
> > It is detected by lsusb as:
> > Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones
> > No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system.
> >
> > I attempted to configure the ethernet device with the numeric URL the
> > working machine uses when configuring it. The installer was happy until
> > it tried to connect to a chosen mirror. I tried 3 in the United States
> > and 1 in Canada. None worked.
> >
> > As I can boot a working Debian on that machine, all installer logs for
> > the failed install are conveniently available.
> >
> > Also I didn't find anything in
> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of how to
> > set up a "ethernet" device.
> >
> > What do I do now?
> > TIA
>
> I was able ONCE to use netinst.iso with Alcatel Linkzone to install Debian.
> There seem to be at least two distinct failure modes.
>
> If the Linkzone has not been used to connect to the web since last power up,
> it *WILL fail repeatably*.
>
> If it has spent time connected to the web, the install *MAY* succeed.
> Otherwise the error log says the server does not have correct release.
> I will have to do some checking to verify that.
>
> I hope to prepare a more detailed report later today.
>
> Thank you.
>
This ties into the 20 questions email I posed to you to try and narrow down
failure modes:
If your connectivity is intermittent - how do you tell that the Alcatel is
working correctly, you have IP connectivity and connection to the outside
world?
[In most cases, there's a webpage: if there's an app, how do _you_ access the
app.? ]
If you don't have network connectivity, you won't get to any mirror, obviously.
If the Alcatel is originally designed as a central hot spot to which people
would connect via WiFi - your use of USB to connect is probably an outlying
case that your ISP would have difficulty troubleshooting.
If you could respond to the 20 questions email: that's intended to narrow
down some of the issues :)
All the best, Andy C.
>
>
>
>
Status update {Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems}
On 03/03/2021 09:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 .
I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine.
debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved.
It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted.
Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet.
To eliminate possibility that second was itself defective I attempted a
multi-boot install to the first machine [Dell Latitude E6410].
Essentially same result :{
Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot.
The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is effectively
just a modem).
It is detected by lsusb as:
Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones
No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system.
I attempted to configure the ethernet device with the numeric URL the
working machine uses when configuring it. The installer was happy until
it tried to connect to a chosen mirror. I tried 3 in the United States
and 1 in Canada. None worked.
As I can boot a working Debian on that machine, all installer logs for
the failed install are conveniently available.
Also I didn't find anything in
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of how to
set up a "ethernet" device.
What do I do now?
TIA
I was able ONCE to use netinst.iso with Alcatel Linkzone to install
Debian. There seem to be at least two distinct failure modes.
If the Linkzone has not been used to connect to the web since last power
up, it *WILL fail repeatably*.
If it has spent time connected to the web, the install *MAY* succeed.
Otherwise the error log says the server does not have correct release.
I will have to do some checking to verify that.
I hope to prepare a more detailed report later today.
Thank you.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 21:47:25 + Joe wrote: ... > If it's user-installed non-free firmware for network interfaces, that is > the state of manufacturing today: we're back to Winmodems and you're > stuck with it. I have one of the last netbooks to come with an Ethernet > port. A USB-Ethernet widget is quite useful to have around these days. To be fair, Winmodems have limited hardware and do much of their work in software running on the host hardware. Network devices that require loadable firmware can be quite capable, hardware-wise, and the firmware runs on the NIC hardware itself. Winmodems therefore often lack Linux support, since software has to be written for the host, while loadable firmware doesn't pose any particular technical problem for Linux (aside from the ideological problem of it being non-free). Celejar
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Mon 01 Feb 2021 at 06:46:40 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > I have just installed Debian 10.7 to my Lenovo T510 Thinkpad having > copied debian-10.7.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso to a flash drive [the machine is > intentionally isolated from the internet]. So you have a 10.7 amd64 DVD available. On Wed 03 Mar 2021 at 09:22:45 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 . > I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine. > debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved. > It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted. > Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet. The netinst image is for people with access to the internet. > Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot. > The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is > effectively just a modem). > It is detected by lsusb as: > Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones > No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system. > > I attempted to configure the ethernet device […] Which ethernet device? You don't have one in your universe. Now I realise why you wrote ethernet in quotation marks—you're pretending it's an ethernet connection. > Also I didn't find anything in > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of how > to set up a "ethernet" device. Why would there be? If you have a real Ethernet device, bought or supplied by your real ISP, you just plug a Cat5 cable into it. . You have a 10.7 amd64 DVD on a stick, . You have a USB port on the laptop, . Install it; . It will work: "install from image of DVD1works." . Upgrade to 10.8 like everyone else does. . Then ascertain from *your* own *running* system what it requires for connectivity *before* you try to install something from scratch. It's called "bootstrapping": at each stage you need a little bit of a system that *works* to get you to the next stage. For someone who doesn't use WiFi, that gizmo looks like a dud. 3/4/5G devices with ethernet do appear to exist, but the ones I've seen are expensive. They throw in things like a firewall and so on. But they're not a mass market, so it's hardly surprising they cost. Cheers, David.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 21:47:25 + Joe wrote: > In the beginning, the problem was inability to write an .iso to a USB > stick or to use Google. Since then, things seem to have evolved. There > are too many posts in this thread to read each one of yours to see > what is currently the problem, and you have just chosen to rant in > this post rather than explaining (again, if necessary) exactly what > the current sticking point is. It would help reduce confusion if the OP would, upon solving a problem, reply indicating that the problem is solved, and how to handle it. Then the OP should start a new, independent, email thread with the new problem, if any. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 03/05/2021 03:47 PM, Joe wrote: On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:12:50 -0600 Richard Owlett wrote: Please PLEASE *PLEASE* read what I *ACTUALLY* wrote !!! *BEFORE* replying to what you WISH I had written ! In the beginning, the problem was inability to write an .iso to a USB stick or to use Google. Since then, things seem to have evolved. There are too many posts in this thread to read each one of yours to see what is currently the problem, and you have just chosen to rant in this post rather than explaining (again, if necessary) exactly what the current sticking point is. If it's user-installed non-free firmware for network interfaces, that is the state of manufacturing today: we're back to Winmodems and you're stuck with it. I have one of the last netbooks to come with an Ethernet port. A USB-Ethernet widget is quite useful to have around these days. install from image of DVD1works. install from image of netinst.iso fails.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:12:50 -0600 Richard Owlett wrote: > Please PLEASE *PLEASE* read what I *ACTUALLY* wrote > !!! *BEFORE* replying to what you WISH I had written ! > > In the beginning, the problem was inability to write an .iso to a USB stick or to use Google. Since then, things seem to have evolved. There are too many posts in this thread to read each one of yours to see what is currently the problem, and you have just chosen to rant in this post rather than explaining (again, if necessary) exactly what the current sticking point is. If it's user-installed non-free firmware for network interfaces, that is the state of manufacturing today: we're back to Winmodems and you're stuck with it. I have one of the last netbooks to come with an Ethernet port. A USB-Ethernet widget is quite useful to have around these days. -- Joe
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
Please PLEASE *PLEASE* read what I *ACTUALLY* wrote !!! *BEFORE* replying to what you WISH I had written !
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 3/5/21 4:09 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: On 03/04/2021 04:46 PM, David Christensen wrote: 2. I _actively_ abhor activating *any* WiFi device. [long OT story] My system currently has [from image of DVD1]: 1. Debian 10.0 with minimum default configuration of MATE. That is a security risk. Update it. If you succeed, then you do not need to install 10.8. 2. Debian 9.13 with MATE with lots of extras. Neither has any non-free drivers and both connect readily to internet. How does your computer connect to the Internet? Attempting to install Debian 10.8.0 from image of netinst.iso downloaded after following default link from Debian homepage. Ignore the giant "Download" button on the Debian home page and go to this page: https://www.debian.org/CD/ ignore this message: "If you simply want to install Debian and have an Internet connection on the target computer please consider the Network Install media which is a smaller download." Download a complete installer. I use this: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-cd/debian-10.8.0-amd64-xfce-CD-1.jigdo The apparent failure point is on the screen offering automatic configuration using DHCP. You need to load the Wi-Fi packages and get your Wi-Fi interface working before that point. Are you following the instructions? https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s02.en.html https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.en.html Have you tried "Expert Mode"? With a complete installer, if you can install the Wi-Fi packages during installation, fine. If not, do the installation and figure out the Wi-Fi later. David
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 03/04/2021 04:46 PM, David Christensen wrote:
On 3/4/21 4:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
What I do now is make yet another attempt to convey my problem.
My universe consists of:
1. myself.
2. a laptop onto which I wish to install Debian using a netinst.iso .
3. an Alcatel Linkzone sold me by T-Mobile, my ISP.
T-Mobile erroneously ASSUMES that *all*customers will use it as a
WiFi Hotspot to create a LAN of up to 15 devices.
I, however, disable the WiFi as that function has *NO* value to me.
4. Debian, absent *ANY* non-free drivers, which is slightly schizoid
in that:
a. it will happily connect to internet if it was installed from an
image of DVD1.
b. its installer which assumes one has *exactly* 2 ways to connect
WiFi
"ethernet" N.B. the quotes and use of lower case
5. the internet which has all the privacy of a party-linefrom over
three score and ten in the past.
I will assume you have this device:
https://www.alcatelmobile.com/product/mobile-broadband/mobile-wifi/linkzone-cat4-mobile-wi-fi/#spec
That looks like what I have.
I will assume your laptop has a Wi-Fi adapter.
It does. {With two BUTS ;}
1. I don't know if it id defective or not.
2. I _actively_ abhor activating *any* WiFi device. [long OT story]
Identify which Debian package(s) are required for your Wi-Fi adapter
(firmware, utilities, whatever). Download the packages and put them on
a USB flash drive.
Boot the Debian installer. Insert the USB flash drive with the Wi-Fi
packages when needed. Install the Wi-Fi packages. Proceed with the
Debian installation.
That would be a "workaround" but not a diagnosis/solution.
I'm working with a multi-boot system to make all environments as
consistent as possible.
My system currently has [from image of DVD1]:
1. Debian 10.0 with minimum default configuration of MATE.
2. Debian 9.13 with MATE with lots of extras.
Neither has any non-free drivers and both connect readily to internet.
Attempting to install Debian 10.8.0 from image of netinst.iso downloaded
after following default link from Debian homepage. The apparent failure
point is on the screen offering automatic configuration using DHCP.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 3/4/21 4:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: What I do now is make yet another attempt to convey my problem. My universe consists of: 1. myself. 2. a laptop onto which I wish to install Debian using a netinst.iso . 3. an Alcatel Linkzone sold me by T-Mobile, my ISP. T-Mobile erroneously ASSUMES that *all* customers will use it as a WiFi Hotspot to create a LAN of up to 15 devices. I, however, disable the WiFi as that function has *NO* value to me. 4. Debian, absent *ANY* non-free drivers, which is slightly schizoid in that: a. it will happily connect to internet if it was installed from an image of DVD1. b. its installer which assumes one has *exactly* 2 ways to connect WiFi "ethernet" N.B. the quotes and use of lower case 5. the internet which has all the privacy of a party-line from over three score and ten in the past. I will assume you have this device: https://www.alcatelmobile.com/product/mobile-broadband/mobile-wifi/linkzone-cat4-mobile-wi-fi/#spec I will assume your laptop has a Wi-Fi adapter. Identify which Debian package(s) are required for your Wi-Fi adapter (firmware, utilities, whatever). Download the packages and put them on a USB flash drive. Boot the Debian installer. Insert the USB flash drive with the Wi-Fi packages when needed. Install the Wi-Fi packages. Proceed with the Debian installation. David
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Thu 04 Mar 2021 at 06:27:30 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/03/2021 09:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 .
> > I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine.
> > debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved.
> > It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted.
> > Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet.
> >
> > To eliminate possibility that second was itself defective I
> > attempted a multi-boot install to the first machine [Dell Latitude
> > E6410].
> > Essentially same result :{
> >
> > Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot.
> > The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is
> > effectively just a modem).
> > It is detected by lsusb as:
> > Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones
> > No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system.
> >
> > I attempted to configure the ethernet device with the numeric URL
> > the working machine uses when configuring it. The installer was
> > happy until it tried to connect to a chosen mirror. I tried 3 in
> > the United States and 1 in Canada. None worked.
> >
> > As I can boot a working Debian on that machine, all installer logs
> > for the failed install are conveniently available.
> >
> > Also I didn't find anything in
> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of
> > how to set up a "ethernet" device.
> >
> > What do I do now?
> > TIA
>
> What I do now is make yet another attempt to convey my problem.
>
> My universe consists of:
> 1. myself.
That could be a problem.
> 2. a laptop onto which I wish to install Debian using a netinst.iso .
> 3. an Alcatel Linkzone sold me by T-Mobile, my ISP.
> T-Mobile erroneously ASSUMES that *all* customers will use it as a
> WiFi Hotspot to create a LAN of up to 15 devices.
> I, however, disable the WiFi as that function has *NO* value to me.
You say T-Mobile is your ISP. What equipment do they offer or provide
as part of that service?
When I look them up, I see just a cylindrical device providing WiFi,
Ethernet × 2, and telephone jack, at $50 pm with no data caps.
Or is that wrong?
> 4. Debian, absent *ANY* non-free drivers, which is slightly schizoid
> in that:
> a. it will happily connect to internet if it was installed from an
> image of DVD1.
So make a nonce installation on the laptop, and use the tools in that
to discover what's absent¹ from the netinst ISO. Manually download
whatever's needed, and then install your netinst over the top.
> b. its installer which assumes one has *exactly* 2 ways to connect
> WiFi
> "ethernet" N.B. the quotes and use of lower case
I have no idea what special meaning your use of Ethernet is meant to convey.
> 5. the internet which has all the privacy of a party-line from over
> three score and ten in the past.
You wrote earlier "I'm not aware of any germane issue with my internet
service, nor with my ISP". As I see it, there are several:
1. You appear to have no Ethernet connection at all, but you're
unwilling to use the connectivity they provide.
2. Your data cap precludes downloading another DVD1 for the new
architecture.
3. Your new attempt to specify "the problem" adds the words "which has
all the privacy of a party-line from over [70 years ago]". Does
this indicate you should purchase a DVD set for the new architecture?
So I suppose I finally have to ask *the* question—do you actually
have an internet service, or are you just using a data allocation
that comes with a mobile phone service?
¹ I previously suggested "firmware", but it seems, rather, that you
lack the drivers themselves.
Cheers,
David.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 03/03/2021 09:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 .
I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine.
debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved.
It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted.
Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet.
To eliminate possibility that second was itself defective I attempted a
multi-boot install to the first machine [Dell Latitude E6410].
Essentially same result :{
Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot.
The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is effectively
just a modem).
It is detected by lsusb as:
Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones
No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system.
I attempted to configure the ethernet device with the numeric URL the
working machine uses when configuring it. The installer was happy until
it tried to connect to a chosen mirror. I tried 3 in the United States
and 1 in Canada. None worked.
As I can boot a working Debian on that machine, all installer logs for
the failed install are conveniently available.
Also I didn't find anything in
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of how to
set up a "ethernet" device.
What do I do now?
TIA
What I do now is make yet another attempt to convey my problem.
My universe consists of:
1. myself.
2. a laptop onto which I wish to install Debian using a netinst.iso .
3. an Alcatel Linkzone sold me by T-Mobile, my ISP.
T-Mobile erroneously ASSUMES that *all* customers will use it as a
WiFi Hotspot to create a LAN of up to 15 devices.
I, however, disable the WiFi as that function has *NO* value to me.
4. Debian, absent *ANY* non-free drivers, which is slightly schizoid
in that:
a. it will happily connect to internet if it was installed from an
image of DVD1.
b. its installer which assumes one has *exactly* 2 ways to connect
WiFi
"ethernet" N.B. the quotes and use of lower case
5. the internet which has all the privacy of a party-line from over
three score and ten in the past.
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 11:08:40PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf > > Not sure how this is relevant. This is like talking about the security > of locks when the other guy is openly telling you he has a copy of > the key. :-) Once I read this metaphor (I can't remember where; something tells me that it was Bruce Schneier, but I can't find it) of securing your house by ramming a two-by-four [1] into the earth in your front yard and hoping the burglar hits his head against it. Cheers [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2_By_4_Clue_Stick.jpg - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
> https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf Not sure how this is relevant. This is like talking about the security of locks when the other guy is openly telling you he has a copy of the key. Stefan
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 3/3/21 6:43 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: Or, get Internet service that includes a modem/ gateway with an Ethernet port. This is probably the best answer in the long run. Unless that modem/gateway is under the control of the ISP, in which case you're fundamentally inviting your ISP onto your local network, IOW into your private home. [ Tho, of course, you can probably arrange to confine that "local network" such that it's only connected to a single other machine which you do control and which you use as your own local router. ] So, you designed, built, and programmed your "single other machine" using machines that you designed, built, and programmed; which in turn you designed, built, and programmed using machines that you designed, built, and programmed; etc.; all sourced from raw materials? I didn't say "built by the ISP" but "under the control of the ISP". IOW "who can administer". Of course, there can also be issues of trust about the underlying software, hardware or what not, but if the ISP has administrative access then there's no need to dig any further. https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf David
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
>>> Or, get Internet service that includes a modem/ gateway with an Ethernet >>> port. This is probably the best answer in the long run. >> Unless that modem/gateway is under the control of the ISP, in which case >> you're fundamentally inviting your ISP onto your local network, IOW into >> your private home. >> [ Tho, of course, you can probably arrange to confine that "local >>network" such that it's only connected to a single other machine which >>you do control and which you use as your own local router. ] > So, you designed, built, and programmed your "single other machine" using > machines that you designed, built, and programmed; which in turn you > designed, built, and programmed using machines that you designed, built, and > programmed; etc.; all sourced from raw materials? I didn't say "built by the ISP" but "under the control of the ISP". IOW "who can administer". Of course, there can also be issues of trust about the underlying software, hardware or what not, but if the ISP has administrative access then there's no need to dig any further. Stefan
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 3/3/21 1:53 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: Or, get Internet service that includes a modem/ gateway with an Ethernet port. This is probably the best answer in the long run. Unless that modem/gateway is under the control of the ISP, in which case you're fundamentally inviting your ISP onto your local network, IOW into your private home. [ Tho, of course, you can probably arrange to confine that "local network" such that it's only connected to a single other machine which you do control and which you use as your own local router. ] So, you designed, built, and programmed your "single other machine" using machines that you designed, built, and programmed; which in turn you designed, built, and programmed using machines that you designed, built, and programmed; etc.; all sourced from raw materials? David
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
> Or, get Internet service that includes a modem/ gateway with an Ethernet > port. This is probably the best answer in the long run. Unless that modem/gateway is under the control of the ISP, in which case you're fundamentally inviting your ISP onto your local network, IOW into your private home. [ Tho, of course, you can probably arrange to confine that "local network" such that it's only connected to a single other machine which you do control and which you use as your own local router. ] Stefan
Re: PARTIAL DIAGNOSIS of Installation problems
On 3/3/21 7:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
I've one fine machine running i386 flavor of Debian 9.13 .
I've wish to install 64 bit flavor on a second machine.
debian-10.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso was successfully downloaded & saved.
It was copied to a USB flash drive and installation attempted.
Only did minimal install as I could not connect to internet.
To eliminate possibility that second was itself defective I attempted a
multi-boot install to the first machine [Dell Latitude E6410].
Essentially same result :{
Connection to internet is via a T-Mobile Alcatel Linkzone Hotspot.
The WiFi connectivity programmatically disabled (i.e. it is effectively
just a modem).
It is detected by lsusb as:
Bus 002 Device 008: ID 1bbb:0195 T & A Mobile Phones
No non-free driver is needed as none are on the working system.
I attempted to configure the ethernet device with the numeric URL the
working machine uses when configuring it. The installer was happy until
it tried to connect to a chosen mirror. I tried 3 in the United States
and 1 in Canada. None worked.
As I can boot a working Debian on that machine, all installer logs for
the failed install are conveniently available.
Also I didn't find anything in
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ telling details of how to
set up a "ethernet" device.
What do I do now?
If you have a Windows PC with an Ethernet port, insert the USB modem
into the Windows PC, connect to the Internet, share the Internet
connection to the Ethernet port, and connect the Ethernet port of the
Windows computer to the Ethernet port of the Linux computer.
Or, use the Debian i386 machine instead of a Windows PC.
Or, get Internet service that includes a modem/ gateway with an Ethernet
port. This is probably the best answer in the long run.
David
