Re: THANKYOU**Googleplex - was (Re: Separate /home directories etc?)

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/10/2018 03:11 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 07/10/2018 01:28 PM, David Wright wrote:

[snip]
Is it a big enough topic to deserve a whole article? I would expect
articles on partitioning to mention it in passing, as for example:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/partitioning


That, with the benefit of article it references, is exactly what I was 
looking for.
In making the point that partitioning schemes are a *PERSONAL Y UNIQUE* 
choice, it {and linked articles} give background for reasoned choices.


Specifically
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/partitioning#Partition_scheme]
gives a text oriented approach to my questions.

"tree -d" gives a starting point to a graphical approach.
Its problem is that that for some directories it gives too much detail.
The command has an option for limiting depth. But that has the inverse 
problem, not enough detail (for me) of some directories.


I've saved a text copy for editing to illustrate a possible illustration.

More later.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[cyaiplexys]

On 07/11/2018 01:10 AM, debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org wrote:

On 7/10/18 3:28 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 04:54:53PM -0400, Matthew Crews wrote:

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it

You are conflating drives and partitions, here. Both partitions could be
on the same physical drive, and a drive failure would affect both in
that case.



True, the main reason you would want /home to be in a separate partition
is to put it on a separate physical drive. However, random file system
corruption could still theoretically take out the / partition without
actually damaging the device. In that case, /home being separate would
spare your data.

Another reason you would want a separate /home partition is to use a
separate file system. For example, you could run / as BTRFS, while /home
would be XFS or ext4.


Reminds me back in the day long ago when I used to dual-boot Windows and 
Linux. I had a /data partition (not /home) where I had formatted it 
NTFS. And that is where I put data I wanted to share between the two 
Operating Systems.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Matthew Crews]

On 7/10/18 3:28 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 04:54:53PM -0400, Matthew Crews wrote:
>> Separate partitions
>> Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
> 
> You are conflating drives and partitions, here. Both partitions could be
> on the same physical drive, and a drive failure would affect both in
> that case.
> 
> 

True, the main reason you would want /home to be in a separate partition
is to put it on a separate physical drive. However, random file system
corruption could still theoretically take out the / partition without
actually damaging the device. In that case, /home being separate would
spare your data.

Another reason you would want a separate /home partition is to use a
separate file system. For example, you could run / as BTRFS, while /home
would be XFS or ext4.

THANKYOU**Googleplex - was (Re: Separate /home directories etc?)

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/10/2018 01:28 PM, David Wright wrote:

[snip]
Is it a big enough topic to deserve a whole article? I would expect
articles on partitioning to mention it in passing, as for example:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/partitioning


That, with the benefit of article it references, is exactly what I was 
looking for.
In making the point that partitioning schemes are a *PERSONAL Y UNIQUE* 
choice, it {and linked articles} give background for reasoned choices.


{As a bonus, one of the articles may have given me a hint to resolve a 
perceived problem [N.B. word choice;] I have with GRUB2.}


A more complete response will follow after a detailed read and much 
cogitation.


IOW  *THANK YOU* !!

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[David Wright]

On Sun 08 Jul 2018 at 07:47:48 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 07/06/2018 03:47 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a
> >separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.
> >
> >I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
> >The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing
> >on one partition/directory.
> >
> >Where may I read about pros/cons ?
> >TIA
> 
> On 07/06/2018 03:54 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:
> >>Pros to keeping same partition together
> >>Pros: less hassle
> >>Cons: if your / partition drive fails, it takes /home with it
> >>
> >>Separate partitions
> >>Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
> >>Pros: easier to run multiple distros
> >>Cons: more hassle
> 
> That was succinct.
> 
> On 07/06/2018 06:40 PM, ntrfug wrote:
> >
> >>The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
> >>directories for all your apps.
> >>
> >>I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
> >>mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
> >>email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
> >>etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
> >>reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
> >>configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
> >>general umm, stuff.
> >>
> 
> That illustrates why I phrased my question {"Where may I read about
> pros/cons ?"} as I did.
> 
> I expecting referrals to "essay"/"HowTo"/"tutorial"/??? .
> There have bee several descriptions of how individuals do what they do.
> 
> I was expecting an article which surveyed the topic, seeing "the
> forest not the trees".

Is it a big enough topic to deserve a whole article? I would expect
articles on partitioning to mention it in passing, as for example:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/partitioning
(The Debian wikis are rather shallow.)
But, as it stresses, "It is essentially personal preference" as to
how you arrange your partitions, because it depends so much on how
you use your system.

Their caveat on sharing /home has been emphasised here in stronger
terms by Greg, and really applies more to DE users than people like me.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/07/msg00337.html

With the number of Debian installations you have, I would expect a
shared home to be very useful as it makes your personal tools more
immediately available. It might be useful to hear whether you have
much dotfile trouble, and how you circumvent it. This could be a
useful application of your WhereAmI and EditingPipedSreams threads.
But only you can be the judge of the pros and cons for your system.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jul 06, 2018 at 04:54:53PM -0400, Matthew Crews wrote:

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it


You are conflating drives and partitions, here. Both partitions could be
on the same physical drive, and a drive failure would affect both in
that case.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jul 07, 2018 at 08:35:51PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 07 Jul 2018 at 08:04:16 (-0400), cyaiplexys wrote:
> > I used to have a separate /home directory back in the day. But I
> > realized that anytime I wanted to reinstall or redo my system
> > (upgrade major version seems to work better on a fresh install on my
> > systems), I would have problems with some apps due to old and
> > outdated configurations in my /home directory. So every time I went
> > to do a (re)install, I ended up wiping the /home directory anyway
> > (after backing up my data which I never had much of).
> 
> I can't see any of my files under /home that are affected by the
> Debian version except dotfiles and directories (and some of the
> dotty stuff is only cache files anyway). So I can't see a reason to
> wipe /home entirely.

Based on my time in IRC, the people who use Desktop Environments
sometimes run into this incomatibility between old version dot files
and new version software.

Meanwhile, users of traditional command-line and terminal programs, like
me, have been running with basically the same dot files for two decades.

It seems the DE developers don't place a high priority on backward
compatibility, or in-place upgrades, or making things Just Work.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[mick crane]

On 2018-07-08 13:47, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 07/06/2018 03:47 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a 
separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.


I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on 
one partition/directory.


Where may I read about pros/cons ?
TIA


On 07/06/2018 03:54 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:

Pros to keeping same partition together
Pros: less hassle
Cons: if your / partition drive fails, it takes /home with it

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
Pros: easier to run multiple distros
Cons: more hassle


That was succinct.

On 07/06/2018 06:40 PM, ntrfug wrote:


The home directory contains not only "personal data" but 
configuration

directories for all your apps.

I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a 
partition

mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, 
and

general umm, stuff.



That illustrates why I phrased my question {"Where may I read about
pros/cons ?"} as I did.

I expecting referrals to "essay"/"HowTo"/"tutorial"/??? .
There have bee several descriptions of how individuals do what they 
do.


I was expecting an article which surveyed the topic, seeing "the
forest not the trees".
Thanks


for general stuff
I have a separate /home directory where the software puts configuration 
and a separate disk that I mount as and when where I put any files, 
pictures and that that I try to backup when I remember.


mick





--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 7/6/18, ntrfug  wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:47:37 -0500
> Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
>> In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a
>> separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.
>>
>> I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
>> The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on
>> one partition/directory.
>>
>> Where may I read about pros/cons ?
>> TIA
>>
>>
> The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
> directories for all your apps.
>
> I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
> mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
> email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
> etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
> reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
> configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
> general umm, stuff.


That thought process is somewhere right on the edge of the latest path
my own computing has taken this week. I think it was just yesterday
that I said something about config files and yada-yada, conflicts
sometimes because of upgrades, downgrades, etc. Add to it that I just
this week entered the amazing World of GPT partitioning. 128
partitions, HAVE MERCY!

So the first thing I did was create one for /home because I've always
wanted to do that...

And then I have several partitions, maybe five for now, for various
distributions.

And thennn the thought occurred that only one /home directory is not
going to work because of eventually if not sooner personalized config
file conflicts across distributions.

So now I'm going to go back and create some more home partitions just
because I can. A set of those will correspond to each, their own
distribution. Last one will be where images, videos, printscreens,
finance tracking, temporary downloads, etc, are housed in yet another
partition that is bound to all the other, more primary "parent" /home
partitions.

Next up will be self-teaching on how to set up a hopefully no-fail
fstab entry for that many years' long dream come true. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/06/2018 03:47 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a 
separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.


I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on 
one partition/directory.


Where may I read about pros/cons ?
TIA


On 07/06/2018 03:54 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:

Pros to keeping same partition together
Pros: less hassle
Cons: if your / partition drive fails, it takes /home with it

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
Pros: easier to run multiple distros
Cons: more hassle


That was succinct.

On 07/06/2018 06:40 PM, ntrfug wrote:



The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
directories for all your apps.

I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
general umm, stuff.



That illustrates why I phrased my question {"Where may I read about 
pros/cons ?"} as I did.


I expecting referrals to "essay"/"HowTo"/"tutorial"/??? .
There have bee several descriptions of how individuals do what they do.

I was expecting an article which surveyed the topic, seeing "the forest 
not the trees".

Thanks

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[David Wright]

On Sat 07 Jul 2018 at 08:04:16 (-0400), cyaiplexys wrote:
> On 07/06/2018 07:40 PM, ntrfug wrote:
> >The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
> >directories for all your apps.
> >
> >I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
> >mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
> >email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
> >etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
> >reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
> >configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
> >general umm, stuff.
> >
> 
> New here. But not new to Linux. Been using Linux for a over 5 years
> as my main OS (and a good many years before that as dual-boot).
> 
> I too have went to a different solution than having a separate /home
> directory.
> 
> I used to have a separate /home directory back in the day. But I
> realized that anytime I wanted to reinstall or redo my system
> (upgrade major version seems to work better on a fresh install on my
> systems), I would have problems with some apps due to old and
> outdated configurations in my /home directory. So every time I went
> to do a (re)install, I ended up wiping the /home directory anyway
> (after backing up my data which I never had much of).

I can't see any of my files under /home that are affected by the
Debian version except dotfiles and directories (and some of the
dotty stuff is only cache files anyway). So I can't see a reason to
wipe /home entirely.

> I really don't have a lot of data either. My /home directory is only
> me and only around 66 GB. The majority of that is configuration
> files though. My actual personal data is around 2GB total.

Can this be right? 64GB of configuration?

I just copied my dot stuff on this laptop. Usage is 136MB, plus
423MB under .cache/ of which 388MB under .cache/mozilla/

> In addition, I've written a python script to auto-install all my
> data so putting everything back on doesn't take long or much effort.

My typical desktop will have approaching 400GB under /home (they have
500GB drives). My laptops have considerably smaller drives, but there's
still much more data than I care to copy.

> Frequent backups ensure I'll always have my data no matter what. And
> so this kinda removed my need for a separate /home directory.

I backup all my systems, but not by backing up the installation
itself—I always have two installations on each machine, frequently
different generations because the production system flip flops
between the two as new Debian versions are released.

Sharing /home obviously makes sense for supporting this and it's
fairly trivial to share dotfiles between versions. As mentioned
in the recent long-running thread on release numbers, I use symlinks
named for the Debian codename where different files are required
(eg audacious, mc). I use the same method using hostname symlinks
to support shared configurations across my different machines.
To avoid any problems with Debian policies, I have always placed
the codename myself in sources.list, which seems a logical place
to me.

One complication: I've not seen a safe method of installing a
Debian system with the inclusion of an encrypted /home partition.
Since starting to use encryption, I've always installed into a
simple root partition and then set up /etc/crypttab and /etc/fstab
after booting into the new system. (I login as root, but some
people may need to boot into single user to do this.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Felix Miata]

Pascal Hambourg composed on 2018-07-07 15:34 (UTC+0200):

> Felix Miata composed:

>> The only significant drawback is when the disk size is small it can be
>> problematic to determine optimum sizes for the separate space allocations.

> LVM is your friend in such situation.

Not my friend. Partition cloning is an integral part not only of my
backup/restore system, but also my multi-multiboot PCs installed OS inventory
system.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 07/07/2018 à 00:12, Felix Miata a écrit :


The only significant drawback is when the disk size is small it can be
problematic to determine optimum sizes for the separate space allocations.

LVM is your friend in such situation. Extending a logical volume is easy.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[cyaiplexys]

On 07/06/2018 07:40 PM, ntrfug wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:47:37 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:


In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a
separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.

I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on
one partition/directory.

Where may I read about pros/cons ?
TIA



The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
directories for all your apps.

I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
general umm, stuff.



New here. But not new to Linux. Been using Linux for a over 5 years as 
my main OS (and a good many years before that as dual-boot).


I too have went to a different solution than having a separate /home 
directory.


I used to have a separate /home directory back in the day. But I 
realized that anytime I wanted to reinstall or redo my system (upgrade 
major version seems to work better on a fresh install on my systems), I 
would have problems with some apps due to old and outdated 
configurations in my /home directory. So every time I went to do a 
(re)install, I ended up wiping the /home directory anyway (after backing 
up my data which I never had much of).


Now that I use laptops, I NEVER keep a lot of personal data on my hard 
drive. I keep only a few things needed daily or for work. But when I 
have done everything I need to for the day, I back up the data 
redundantly off the hard drive. This has come in handy numerous times 
when my main laptop died out or something went wrong where it was down 
for awhile. I just load the data onto the other laptop. That other one I 
don't keep any data on it since data changes and it would be a PITA to 
go lug it out and update that one as well with my personal data. USB 
sticks for data is easier to carry from one machine to another. I also 
keep an encrypted copy of my backups on the cloud at the same time I 
update my regular off-computer backups.


This means that I don't have to worry about data loss in case of theft, 
or hardware failure, and I can use any machine I need to. And if I 
upgrade or update, I don't have to worry about old configuration file 
formats needing to be overwritten or conflicting with newer versions of 
the programs.


I really don't have a lot of data either. My /home directory is only me 
and only around 66 GB. The majority of that is configuration files 
though. My actual personal data is around 2GB total.


In addition, I've written a python script to auto-install all my data so 
putting everything back on doesn't take long or much effort.


Frequent backups ensure I'll always have my data no matter what. And so 
this kinda removed my need for a separate /home directory.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[ntrfug]

On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:47:37 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:

> In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a 
> separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.
> 
> I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
> The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on 
> one partition/directory.
> 
> Where may I read about pros/cons ?
> TIA
> 
> 
The home directory contains not only "personal data" but configuration
directories for all your apps.

I long ago settled on a middle-of-the-road solution--I have a partition
mounted on /home/ntrfug/files which contains all my "data" such as
email, photos, documents, non-distribution software, bank statements,
etc. I've been doing this for ~20 years and I still like it. I can
reinstall nuking the home directory to take advantage of updated
configurations but still keep my word processing documents, email, and
general umm, stuff.

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 06/07/18 01:54 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:


Pros to keeping same partition together
Pros: less hassle
Cons: if your / partition drive fails, it takes /home with it

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
Pros: easier to run multiple distros
Cons: more hassle


I'm currently in the process of moving from the mailing list to the 
Usenet newsgroup linux.debian.user.  I've been running the two in 
parallel, and I've been getting identical results.


Until your message came along.  Although it looks OK in my e-mail client 
(Icedove), slrn rendered it as a bunch of base64 gibberish (see below).



Sent from ProtonMail , Swiss-based encrypted email.


Check your settings.  There might be something there that isn't quite 
standard.  Either that or it's sufficiently out on the edge to violate 
Postel's Law.


Here's what your posting looks like in slrn:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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--b1_9ab76127dcfcb2a8c0f2da8ca70a713c--

--
cgi...@surfnaked.ca (Charlie Gibbs)

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Felix Miata]

Richard Owlett composed on 2018-07-06 14:47 (UTC-0500):

> In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a 
> separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.

> I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
> The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on 
> one partition/directory.

> Where may I read about pros/cons ?

It's really pretty simple:

All together in one partition means when you need to reinstall the OS, or if you
wish to change the OS, everything is lost, same in Windows as in Linux.

The only significant drawback is when the disk size is small it can be
problematic to determine optimum sizes for the separate space allocations. Disks
are so large now that this drawback is obsolete for most people, but can apply
to multibooters.

There is another advantage, which is having separate data filesystem somewhat
simplifies backup and restore operations. Lost user data you generally want to
restore if a disk fails, while it's generally convenient just to reformat and
install fresh the OS.

In short, not having a separate /home generally amounts to foolishness.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Kenneth Parker]

I, not only have a separate /home directory but, if the Hard Drive is large
enough, will create things, like /bighome, /oldhome (just before installing
a new Release), as well other variations, to handle the "Issue de jour".

Why?  Because /home is where my "personal data" is stored, and I don't want
anything to go wrong.  (For example, I avoided an issue that showed up on
this List with /oldhome, when jumping from Ubuntu to Debian, including
going from Open Office to LibreOffice.  Didn't someone lose Templates
recently?)

Note:  If I am short on disk space, I will, at least, "tar and feather" my
filesystem, before the Upgrade. I have two One Terrabyte external Hard
Drives for this purpose.

Good luck!

Kenneth Parker, Reformed Ubuntu user, now mainly on Debian.

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 4:48 PM Richard Owlett  wrote:

> In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a
> separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.
>
> I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
> The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on
> one partition/directory.
>
> Where may I read about pros/cons ?
> TIA
>
>
>

Re: Separate /home directories etc?

[Matthew Crews]

Pros to keeping same partition together
Pros: less hassle
Cons: if your / partition drive fails, it takes /home with it

Separate partitions
Pros: if your / partition drive fails, it does not take /home with it
Pros: easier to run multiple distros
Cons: more hassle

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com), Swiss-based encrypted email.

 Original Message 
On Jul 6, 2018, 13:47, Richard Owlett wrote:

> In response to a unrelated post to a LUG, I was asked if I had a
> separate /home directory. Short answer -- no.
>
> I abandoned WinXP when Jessie had become stable.
> The installer defaults {I assume for cause} to putting every thing on
> one partition/directory.
>
> Where may I read about pros/cons ?
> TIA