Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 18/09/10 12:52, Bret Busby wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
>>
 (a pyrrhic victory!)
>>> What?
>>
>> Rebirth from the ashes - Phoenix had complications so Firefox was chosen
>> to symbolise the victorious rebirth of, um, - the spirit/ghost of
>> Netscape(?).
>> Supposedly the revenge of Netscape on fnord Microsoft. (anecdote)
>>
>>
>
> The story of the rising from the ashes (the nature of a phoenix), is
> unrelated to a Pyrrhic Victory.
>
> A Pyrrhic Victory is when one side wins a battle but loses the war.

fnord Microsoft drives Netscape out of business to give greater market
share to IE. Netscape releases source code which eventually contributes
to IE losing market share... to which it could be said - that another
such victory (by Microsoft) would bring them undone. I'm paraphrasing
"Another such victory and I am undone." - which is (one of) the quotes
attributed to Pyrrhus.
Disclaimer:- if I'm right it's because I remember the quotes of others
correctly.

>
> Not trying to be argumentative - just trying to give the correct
> meaning of the term "Pyrrhic Victory".

No offence or argument taken.

>
> "A little learning is a dangerous thing.
> Drink deep, or drink not, from the Pierian Spring"
> - Alexander Pope; "An Essay On Criticsm" (1709)
>
> (
> More official (?) version:
>
> "A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the
> Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and
> drinking largely sobers us again."
> )
>

We're going back 30+ years, but, when I was studying (and I don't
remember much Pope) we had to learn the Satyricon (a little earlier than
Pope), and this much I do remember   "This is the armour of genius–,
Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring, Only then pour out your
heart" (apropos of nothing).
Either way - Macedonia is a hell of a long way from the USA ;-p

> -- 
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> ..
>
> "So once you do know what the question actually is,
>  you'll know what the answer means."
> - Deep Thought,
>   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
>   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
>   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
>   written by Douglas Adams,
>   published by Pan Books, 1992
>
> 
>
>


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Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Alex]

>
> On a slightly (more) off-topic question - does any one know how fnord
> Ubuntu gets around the Mozilla Corp. restrictions with Firefox?
>

I know that Ubuntu's Firefox install comes with an addon named "Ubuntu
Firefox Modifications" - I assume they just use that for all their changes.
IIRC the FF branding is also in a seperate package.

Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010, Scott Ferguson wrote:




(a pyrrhic victory!)

What?


Rebirth from the ashes - Phoenix had complications so Firefox was chosen
to symbolise the victorious rebirth of, um, - the spirit/ghost of
Netscape(?).
Supposedly the revenge of Netscape on fnord Microsoft. (anecdote)




The story of the rising from the ashes (the nature of a phoenix), is 
unrelated to a Pyrrhic Victory.


A Pyrrhic Victory is when one side wins a battle but loses the war.

Not trying to be argumentative - just trying to give the correct meaning 
of the term "Pyrrhic Victory".


"A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep, or drink not, from the Pierian Spring"
- Alexander Pope; "An Essay On Criticsm" (1709)

(
More official (?) version:

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the 
Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and 
drinking largely sobers us again."

)

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 17/09/10 23:14, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 00:21, Scott Ferguson
>  wrote:
>>  
>> (Going from memory here - so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
>>
>> Once apon a time there was Netscape suite - which became Mozilla suite
> In spirit only. Netscape 5 would have been a continuation of 4's code base,
> but they tossed it out and wrote Gecko from scratch. The browser built on
> Gecko was called Mozilla (which had been the Netscape code name since
> forever), later it was called Mozilla Suite to distinguish it from other 
> Mozilla
> browsers.

*nod. Thank you.

>> (a pyrrhic victory!)
> What?

Rebirth from the ashes - Phoenix had complications so Firefox was chosen
to symbolise the victorious rebirth of, um, - the spirit/ghost of
Netscape(?).
Supposedly the revenge of Netscape on fnord Microsoft. (anecdote)

>> which became Seamonkey - due to restrictions
>> placed on it by the Mozilla Corporation,  Debian produced the Iceape
>> version.
>> That's a little of the history.
>>
>> Differences:- logos, icons, names etc - plus Iceape is slightly more
>> configurable (user-agent etc.) and security patches to older versions
>> are unaffected by Mozilla freezes.
>> Functionality:- slightly more with Iceape - but I haven't noticed any
>> difference in performance.
> Although the current version of SeaMonkey has more features than
> the old version that is Iceape
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly Clowers
>
>
I must be missing something there Kelly, I confess to very little use of
either (mostly Iceape), but a quick check shows that we deploy both
Iceape and Seamonkey (which implies a great deal of similarity), and
both are the same version number (2.0.8 currently). What features does
SeaMonkey have that Iceape doesn't?
I can't find a feature list for Iceape - but then I can't see anything
on http://www.seamonkey-project.org/doc/features that Iceape doesn't
do... and I've seen nothing in the Iceape lists to indicate that the
reasons for the split have vanished (backporting of security patches, etc).

On a slightly (more) off-topic question - does any one know how fnord
Ubuntu gets around the Mozilla Corp. restrictions with Firefox?

Cheers


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Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 00:21, Scott Ferguson
 wrote:
>  On 17/09/10 16:40, Bret Busby wrote:
>>  read that... (scott) 
>> Please note: in an effort to trim the message to which I am
>> responding, I cut most of it out, apart from the stuff above, and the
>> stuff above "Mozilla Corp", above, was posted by me, and from there
>> down, was posted by Scott (to avoid confusion about misquoting).
>>
>> What about the differences between iceape and Seamonkey?
>>
>> Do they have the same funtionality?
>>
>> --
>> Bret Busby
>> Armadale
>> West Australia
>> ..
>>
> ...and I cut it further :-)
>
> Similar story to Iceweasel (note the lower-case w!) and Firefox.
> (Going from memory here - so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
> Once apon a time there was Netscape suite - which became Mozilla suite

In spirit only. Netscape 5 would have been a continuation of 4's code base,
but they tossed it out and wrote Gecko from scratch. The browser built on
Gecko was called Mozilla (which had been the Netscape code name since
forever), later it was called Mozilla Suite to distinguish it from other Mozilla
browsers.

> (a pyrrhic victory!)
What?

> which became Seamonkey - due to restrictions
> placed on it by the Mozilla Corporation,  Debian produced the Iceape
> version.
> That's a little of the history.
>
> Differences:- logos, icons, names etc - plus Iceape is slightly more
> configurable (user-agent etc.) and security patches to older versions
> are unaffected by Mozilla freezes.
> Functionality:- slightly more with Iceape - but I haven't noticed any
> difference in performance.

Although the current version of SeaMonkey has more features than
the old version that is Iceape

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 17/09/10 19:01, Lisi wrote:
> On Friday 17 September 2010 06:06:19 Marc Shapiro wrote:
>> Am I glad that I get my Firefox and Thunderbird direct from Mozilla.
>> The ability to save its session is one of the things I love about Firefox.
> I am running Lenny and use Iceweasel 3.0.6.  Sessions get saved automagically.
>
> Lisi
>
>
I am running Swiftfox 3.6.8 (unstable, i686, Prescott, and amd64) on
Lennys and Squeezes. Sessions get saved if I crash/kill or close with
multiple tabs.
Lowest spec is an AMD K6-2 500 w. 256MB (KDE) runs up to ten tabs no
problem (only flashblock/adblock and noscript running).
Tip: turn off check for updates on start up.

Cheers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Lisi]

On Friday 17 September 2010 06:06:19 Marc Shapiro wrote:
> Am I glad that I get my Firefox and Thunderbird direct from Mozilla.
> The ability to save its session is one of the things I love about Firefox.

I am running Lenny and use Iceweasel 3.0.6.  Sessions get saved automagically.

Lisi


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Re: Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 17/09/10 16:40, Bret Busby wrote:
>  read that... (scott) 
> Please note: in an effort to trim the message to which I am
> responding, I cut most of it out, apart from the stuff above, and the
> stuff above "Mozilla Corp", above, was posted by me, and from there
> down, was posted by Scott (to avoid confusion about misquoting).
>
> What about the differences between iceape and Seamonkey?
>
> Do they have the same funtionality?
>
> -- 
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> ..
>
...and I cut it further :-)

Similar story to Iceweasel (note the lower-case w!) and Firefox.
(Going from memory here - so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Once apon a time there was Netscape suite - which became Mozilla suite
(a pyrrhic victory!) which became Seamonkey - due to restrictions
placed on it by the Mozilla Corporation,  Debian produced the Iceape
version.
That's a little of the history.

Differences:- logos, icons, names etc - plus Iceape is slightly more
configurable (user-agent etc.) and security patches to older versions
are unaffected by Mozilla freezes.
Functionality:- slightly more with Iceape - but I haven't noticed any
difference in performance.

Now - IceWeasel and Iceweasel are/were not the same thing but that's
another story.

Hope that helps Bret, Cheers


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Iceape/Seamonkey and Iceweasel/Firefox - was Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, Scott Ferguson wrote:







I understood that some of the functionality
(subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian
philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications
compliant with the Debian philosophy.

Mozilla Corp. (as opposed to Mozilla Foundation) took offence at:-

   * Debian backporting security fixes to older versions of
 Firefox/Iceweasel
   * *at Debian allowing users to change search engines and make other
 modifications*

, and insisted the use of the Firefox name is permitted only if
accompanied by its logo, icons, and other artwork (which is in breach of
the Debian Free Software Guidlines).

Long story short, icons, artwork, logo, and icons changed in the Debian
version (Icecat is another story).
So - reduced funtionality in Iceweasel - emphatically no. In fact
Iceweasel has more functionality than Firefox.
Feel free to look it up for yourself - the references are on this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel

Cheers



Please note: in an effort to trim the message to which I am responding, 
I cut most of it out, apart from the stuff above, and the stuff above 
"Mozilla Corp", above, was posted by me, and from there down, was posted 
by Scott (to avoid confusion about misquoting).


What about the differences between iceape and Seamonkey?

Do they have the same funtionality?

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Marc Shapiro]

On 09/13/10 01:33, Merciadri Luca wrote:

Klistvud wrote:

Dne, 13. 09. 2010 09:49:17 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):


Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session?


'Simulate'? Isn't it supposed to crash, erm ... automagically?

Well, I generally kill the iceweasel process to make it believe that it
crashed. By this way, restarting Iceweasel some hours later gives me the
opportunity to get back to my last session. Stupid, but it works.


Am I glad that I get my Firefox and Thunderbird direct from Mozilla. 
The ability to save its session is one of the things I love about Firefox.



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:13:00 -0600
Bob Proulx  wrote:

> Bret Busby wrote:
> > I understood that some of the functionality
> > (subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian
> > philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications
> > compliant with the Debian philosophy.
> 
> It was a trademark issue.  And a philosophy issue.  See this previous
> discussion of it for more information.
> 
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/10/msg00665.html
> 
> Bob

Also the auto update stuff was removed.

When i first started using debian, I looked into the differences
between iceweasel and firefox. 

The only disadvantage from an end-users standpoint in using iceweasel
over the firefox from upstream, is that stable releases end up with old
versions. 

If this matters to you, you can always pull in XULRunner and the
browser from backports or testing or Unstable or Experimental (I pull
mine from the latter and haven’t had any problems so far).

Also. until very recently, (think a few weeks, beta 4 ish of FF4) there
was no official x86_64 ports available from mozilla!

Also, shockingly, adobe has put out a new, up-to-date, 64bit flash for
linux et al! see here [1], I just changed from using the 32bit one
under nsplugins and it seems faster/more stable!

[1] http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

--
Regards,

Angus Hedger

Debian GNU/Linux User   PGP Public Key 0xEE6A4B97


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bob Proulx]

Bret Busby wrote:
> I understood that some of the functionality
> (subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian
> philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications
> compliant with the Debian philosophy.

It was a trademark issue.  And a philosophy issue.  See this previous
discussion of it for more information.

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/10/msg00665.html

Bob


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 16/09/10 13:11, Bret Busby wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:52, Kelly Clowers
>>  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 08:57, Bret Busby  wrote:
 On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:

>
>>
>> You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is
>> diifferent (from
>> what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand,
>> some of
>> the
>> Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.
>
> The only thing that should be removed is the name.
>

 I may be wrong in my understanding, but I believe that some of the
 functionality was removed, in the modifications of the Mozilla
 products to
 create the Debian products iceape and iceweasel, as the Mozilla
 products
 apparently did not comply with the Debian philosophy and thence
 Mozilla
 products in their Mozilla forms were no longer available via the
 Debian
 repositories.
>>>
>>> If by  "some of the functionality was removed", you mean the
>>> standard Firefox
>>> and SeaMonkey Icons, then sure. That's about it AFAIK. Trouble with
>>> the icon
>>> licensing (and some issues with carrying patches, I think) led to
>>> trouble with
>>> the trademarks, which led  to the name change.
>>
>
> I understood that some of the functionality
> (subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian
> philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications
> compliant with the Debian philosophy.
>
> I do not remember the details - it was some years ago, I think, when
> Seamonkey and Firefox were removed from the Debian repositories or
> removed from a (then) upcoming version of Debian, to be replaced by
> iceape and iceweasel.
>
> One of the Debian project people, or, if the Debian Project has
> Project Historians (people who can track historical events/changes in
> the way the Debian project does its thing) may know more of this, and
> could better advise regarding this.
>
> Icons are not functionality - they are only widow dressing.
>
> -- 
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> ..
>
> 
>
> 

> I understood that some of the functionality
> (subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian
> philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications
> compliant with the Debian philosophy. 
Mozilla Corp. (as opposed to Mozilla Foundation) took offence at:-

* Debian backporting security fixes to older versions of
  Firefox/Iceweasel
* *at Debian allowing users to change search engines and make other
  modifications*

, and insisted the use of the Firefox name is permitted only if
accompanied by its logo, icons, and other artwork (which is in breach of
the Debian Free Software Guidlines).

Long story short, icons, artwork, logo, and icons changed in the Debian
version (Icecat is another story).
So - reduced funtionality in Iceweasel - emphatically no. In fact
Iceweasel has more functionality than Firefox.
Feel free to look it up for yourself - the references are on this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel

Cheers

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:



On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:52, Kelly Clowers  wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 08:57, Bret Busby  wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:





You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is diifferent (from
what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand, some of
the
Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.


The only thing that should be removed is the name.



I may be wrong in my understanding, but I believe that some of the
functionality was removed, in the modifications of the Mozilla products to
create the Debian products iceape and iceweasel, as the Mozilla products
apparently did not comply with the Debian philosophy and thence Mozilla
products in their Mozilla forms were no longer available via the Debian
repositories.


If by  "some of the functionality was removed", you mean the standard Firefox
and SeaMonkey Icons, then sure. That's about it AFAIK. Trouble with the icon
licensing (and some issues with carrying patches, I think) led to trouble with
the trademarks, which led  to the name change.




I understood that some of the functionality 
(subroutines/modules/whatever) did not comply with the Debian 
philosophy, and so were removed, to make the resultant applications 
compliant with the Debian philosophy.


I do not remember the details - it was some years ago, I think, when 
Seamonkey and Firefox were removed from the Debian repositories or 
removed from a (then) upcoming version of Debian, to be replaced by 
iceape and iceweasel.


One of the Debian project people, or, if the Debian Project has Project 
Historians (people who can track historical events/changes in the way 
the Debian project does its thing) may know more of this, and could 
better advise regarding this.


Icons are not functionality - they are only widow dressing.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

> On 09/14/2010 10:53 PM, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:52, Kelly
>> Clowers  wrote:
>>   
>>> /snip/
>>> If by  "some of the functionality was removed", you mean the
>>> standard Firefox
>>> and SeaMonkey Icons, then sure. That's about it AFAIK. Trouble with
>>> the icon
>>> licensing (and some issues with carrying patches, I think) led to
>>> trouble with
>>> the trademarks, which led  to the name change.
>>>  
>> Sent to the list this time. Sorry about that.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kelly Clowers
>>
>>
>>
> Is there any practical way to get the icons back, so you can use what
> you're used to?
> --doug
>
>

Download from here http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/about/logo/use.html

Cheers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Doug]

On 09/14/2010 10:53 PM, Kelly Clowers wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:52, Kelly Clowers  wrote:
   

/snip/
If by  "some of the functionality was removed", you mean the standard Firefox
and SeaMonkey Icons, then sure. That's about it AFAIK. Trouble with the icon
licensing (and some issues with carrying patches, I think) led to trouble with
the trademarks, which led  to the name change.
 

Sent to the list this time. Sorry about that.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


   
Is there any practical way to get the icons back, so you can use what 
you're used to?

--doug


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:52, Kelly Clowers  wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 08:57, Bret Busby  wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>>
>>>

 You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is diifferent (from
 what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand, some of
 the
 Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.
>>>
>>> The only thing that should be removed is the name.
>>>
>>
>> I may be wrong in my understanding, but I believe that some of the
>> functionality was removed, in the modifications of the Mozilla products to
>> create the Debian products iceape and iceweasel, as the Mozilla products
>> apparently did not comply with the Debian philosophy and thence Mozilla
>> products in their Mozilla forms were no longer available via the Debian
>> repositories.
>
> If by  "some of the functionality was removed", you mean the standard Firefox
> and SeaMonkey Icons, then sure. That's about it AFAIK. Trouble with the icon
> licensing (and some issues with carrying patches, I think) led to trouble with
> the trademarks, which led  to the name change.

Sent to the list this time. Sorry about that.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Aaron Toponce]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:05:11PM +0100, Lisi wrote:
> On Tuesday 14 September 2010 16:48:46 Bret Busby wrote:
> > Because the Debian people (I believe) omitted iceape and iceweasel from
> > Debian 5, I had to search, and installed the previous release packages.
> 
> Iceweasel is there:
> 
> l...@tux:~$ cat /etc/debian_version
> 5.0.6
> l...@tux:~$ aptitude show iceweasel
> Package: iceweasel
> State: installed
> [snip]
> 
> But Iceape does indeed seem not be there in its entirety, only the 
> development 
> files:
> 
> l...@tux:~$ aptitude search iceape
> p   iceape-dev  - Development files for the 
> Iceape 
> Internet Suite
> p   iceape-dev-bin  - Development files for the 
> Iceape 
> Internet Suite
> l...@tux:~$

Iceweasel, Icedove and Iceape, among many, many other packages, rely on
only a handful of core packages, notably xulrunner. The reason Iceape
didn't ship, is because it couldn't be built against the xulrunner
version that supported Iceweasel, Icedove, Epiphany and the others. That
is why for Squeeze, you won't be seeing the latest and greatest Icedove
and Iceweasel, because Iceape and other packages can now be shipped with
the current xulrunner version.

The latest and greatest require a new xulrunner, that many packages
haven't had the time to be tested against. And with Squeeze frozen, we'll
have to wait for Wheezy. You could ship multiple xulrunner versions, but
then you introduce twice the overhead for the security team.

Long story short, it's give-and-take. Hope that makes sense.

-- 
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Lisi]

On Tuesday 14 September 2010 16:48:46 Bret Busby wrote:
> Because the Debian people (I believe) omitted iceape and iceweasel from
> Debian 5, I had to search, and installed the previous release packages.

Iceweasel is there:

l...@tux:~$ cat /etc/debian_version
5.0.6
l...@tux:~$ aptitude show iceweasel
Package: iceweasel
State: installed
[snip]

But Iceape does indeed seem not be there in its entirety, only the development 
files:

l...@tux:~$ aptitude search iceape
p   iceape-dev  - Development files for the Iceape 
Internet Suite
p   iceape-dev-bin  - Development files for the Iceape 
Internet Suite
l...@tux:~$

Lisi


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:





You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is diifferent (from
what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand, some of the
Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.


The only thing that should be removed is the name.



I may be wrong in my understanding, but I believe that some of the 
functionality was removed, in the modifications of the Mozilla products 
to create the Debian products iceape and iceweasel, as the Mozilla 
products apparently did not comply with the Debian philosophy and thence 
Mozilla products in their Mozilla forms were no longer available via the 
Debian repositories.


My experience of trying to install and update the binaries or whatever, 
from the Mozilla web site, rather than installing .deb packages using 
the Debian package management system, was that it was like trying to do 
brain surgery with a sledgehammer; completely messy, and leading to a 
useless mess.


One of the factors that led to my conversion to Debian, several years 
ago, was the ease of locating and installing packages, using the Debian 
package management system. I am not sure, but I believe that it was 
somewhere around Debian 3.0, that I was converted, by a local Debian or 
otherwise Linux guru.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:



On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 04:32, Merciadri Luca
 wrote:

Klistvud wrote:

Dne, 13. 09. 2010 10:33:42 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):

You mean, ctrl-q doesn't work?


It works! Nice! I did not know that there was this command!


In theory, all Linux gui apps should respect ctrl-q, and most do.




What is  , and, would it work with the iceweasle and iceape that 
are from Debian etch (4?) ?


Because the Debian people (I believe) omitted iceape and iceweasel from 
Debian 5, I had to search, and installed the previous release packages.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 04:32, Merciadri Luca
 wrote:
> Klistvud wrote:
>> Dne, 13. 09. 2010 10:33:42 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):
>>
>> You mean, ctrl-q doesn't work?
>>
> It works! Nice! I did not know that there was this command!

In theory, all Linux gui apps should respect ctrl-q, and most do.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 22:54, Bret Busby  wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 23:45, Bret Busby  wrote:
>>>
>>> Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy to
>>> click
>>> on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But, iceape
>>> appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have a viral
>>> use for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the browser is
>>> left
>>> open, and it does not free up the memory that it has been using, when it
>>> is
>>> closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd occasion that it is
>>> deliberately closed, rather than the all too frequent crashes). Also,
>>> iceape
>>> does not have the facility for saving sessions, either deliberately, or,
>>> when the application crashes.
>>
>> Sure Moz has session saving.  And it's memory management has always been
>> as good or better than FF. If Iceape doesn't then they are really messing
>> something up.
>>
>>> If iceape and iceweasel both were able to save sessions, and, to provide
>>> a
>>> means of splitting sessions into bookmark folders/sets, for each browser
>>> window open in a session, so that a user can, on opening a new session of
>>> the browser after a crash, and select options of a new, separate session,
>>> or
>>> restoring the complete old session (or, similarly, for a previous saved
>>> session that was not saved due to a crash), or, open in a browser window
>>> (the existing browser window or a new browser window), a single browser
>>> window (from a bookmakr set from a previous saveds session), it would be
>>> good.
>>
>> It's kind of hard to understand what you want to do, but it seems like
>> Mozilla
>> (and FF?) do pretty much all of that.
>>
>
> You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is diifferent (from
> what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand, some of the
> Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.

The only thing that should be removed is the name.


>
> However, the memory cache keeps increasing, as does the actual memory usage,
> and, because it is iceape, when, as previously stated, the application is
> closed, whether by crashing or in an orderly manner, the memory that it has
> taken up, is not released, so, after using iceape, the ssytem has to be
> rebooted after iceape has closed, to free up the memory that had been used
> by iceape.

Ok, if it doesn't free memory on closing the application, then that is a *real*
memory leak, and it should be an RC bug.

> I have had to disable javascript, to get iceape as stable as possible, as
> the "Block pop-ips" does not work,

The built in pop-up blocker doesn't work? That's another serious regression
from upstream.

> and automatically refereshing web pages
> make iceape viral within the system, as it increasingly devours memory, like
> a flesh-eating disease.
>
> That might be a good analogy for iceape - reather than viral, a flesh-eating
> application.
>
> One thing that might be worth remembering here - you have referred to Moz
> (?) and FF(?).
>
>
> If in that, you refer to Seamonkey and Firefox, iceape and iceweasel are
> different to the Mozilla products.
>
> Similar, but different.

They are supposed to be identical, except for the name and a few bug fixes.
Although, I guess they are really old versions. If iceape is still SM
1.x, not 2.0,
it wouldn't have session saving. Current FF and Moz have session restore
even without crashing. But memory management was fine in SM 1.x and
Mozilla 1.8, so that's still a regression , not a new feature they
haven't caught
up with yet.

All in all, it seems like my decision to use upstream (despite my dislike
of the Mozilla Foundation) was the right one, and not just because of
freshness issues.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Klistvud wrote:
> Dne, 13. 09. 2010 10:33:42 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):
>
> You mean, ctrl-q doesn't work?
>
It works! Nice! I did not know that there was this command!

-- 
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 13. 09. 2010 10:33:42 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):

You mean, ctrl-q doesn't work?

--
Regards,

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com

Please reply to the list, not to me.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Mon September 13 2010, Merciadri Luca wrote:
>   
>> Simply because it does not ask me anymore if I want to save tabs or not.
>> And that, most of the time, I want to close iceweasel without keeping my
>> current tabs in memory.
>> 
>
> try in iceweasel: about:config
>
> browser.warnOnQuit;true
>
>   
Thanks.

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Scott Ferguson wrote:
>  On 13/09/10 18:33, Merciadri Luca wrote:
>   
>> Klistvud wrote:
>> 
>>> Dne, 13. 09. 2010 09:49:17 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):
>>>
>>>   
 Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session?
 
>>> 'Simulate'? Isn't it supposed to crash, erm ... automagically?
>>>   
>> Well, I generally kill the iceweasel process to make it believe that it
>> crashed. By this way, restarting Iceweasel some hours later gives me the
>> opportunity to get back to my last session. Stupid, but it works.
>>
>> 
> Kill?  Why not just quit, and elect to save open tabs?
> Save typing... :-)
>   
Simply because it does not ask me anymore if I want to save tabs or not.
And that, most of the time, I want to close iceweasel without keeping my
current tabs in memory.

-- 
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Mon September 13 2010, Merciadri Luca wrote:
>   
>> Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session? That's
>> generally what I do, but I find it very stupid.
>> 
>
> when I have multiple tabs open, and hit the big X to close iceweasel, it 
> askes 
> me if I want to:
> Quit, SAVE & QUIT, cancel.
> works about the same as pkill iceweasel..
>
>   
I don't have this possibility anymore.

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Scott Ferguson]

 On 13/09/10 18:33, Merciadri Luca wrote:
> Klistvud wrote:
>> Dne, 13. 09. 2010 09:49:17 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):
>>
>>> Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session?
>> 'Simulate'? Isn't it supposed to crash, erm ... automagically?
> Well, I generally kill the iceweasel process to make it believe that it
> crashed. By this way, restarting Iceweasel some hours later gives me the
> opportunity to get back to my last session. Stupid, but it works.
>
Kill?  Why not just quit, and elect to save open tabs?
Save typing... :-)

Cheers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Klistvud wrote:
> Dne, 13. 09. 2010 09:49:17 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):
>
>> Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session?
>
> 'Simulate'? Isn't it supposed to crash, erm ... automagically?
Well, I generally kill the iceweasel process to make it believe that it
crashed. By this way, restarting Iceweasel some hours later gives me the
opportunity to get back to my last session. Stupid, but it works.

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 13. 09. 2010 09:49:17 je Merciadri Luca napisal(a):


Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session?


'Simulate'? Isn't it supposed to crash, erm ... automagically?
--
Regards, ;P

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com

Please reply to the list, not to me.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Merciadri Luca]

Bret Busby wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 23:45, Bret Busby  wrote:
>>>
>>> Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy
>>> to click
>>> on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But,
>>> iceape
>>> appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have a
>>> viral
>>> use for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the browser
>>> is left
>>> open, and it does not free up the memory that it has been using,
>>> when it is
>>> closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd occasion that it is
>>> deliberately closed, rather than the all too frequent crashes).
>>> Also, iceape
>>> does not have the facility for saving sessions, either deliberately,
>>> or,
>>> when the application crashes.
Is one obliged to simulate a crash to save its Iceweasel session? That's
generally what I do, but I find it very stupid.

-- 
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Kelly Clowers wrote:



On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 23:45, Bret Busby  wrote:


Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy to click
on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But, iceape
appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have a viral
use for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the browser is left
open, and it does not free up the memory that it has been using, when it is
closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd occasion that it is
deliberately closed, rather than the all too frequent crashes). Also, iceape
does not have the facility for saving sessions, either deliberately, or,
when the application crashes.


Sure Moz has session saving.  And it's memory management has always been
as good or better than FF. If Iceape doesn't then they are really messing
something up.


If iceape and iceweasel both were able to save sessions, and, to provide a
means of splitting sessions into bookmark folders/sets, for each browser
window open in a session, so that a user can, on opening a new session of
the browser after a crash, and select options of a new, separate session, or
restoring the complete old session (or, similarly, for a previous saved
session that was not saved due to a crash), or, open in a browser window
(the existing browser window or a new browser window), a single browser
window (from a bookmakr set from a previous saveds session), it would be
good.


It's kind of hard to understand what you want to do, but it seems like Mozilla
(and FF?) do pretty much all of that.



You say Moz (?) but, if you refer to Seamonkey, that is diifferent (from 
what I understand) to iceape, which has, from what I understand, some of 
the Mozilla stuff that makes Mozilla software what it is, removed.


And, iceape definitely does not have session saving, as far as I am 
aware.


If you believe that iceape has session saving, please explain how to get 
it working.


I am using iceape as specified;

"
Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; 
rv:1.8.0.14eol) Gecko/20070505 Iceape/1.0.9 
(Debian-1.0.13~pre080614i-0etch1)

"

running on Debian 5.


And, if someone could fix the memory issues, it would be good.

When 2GB of RAM is insufficient to run Linux AND a web browser on top od
Linux, suxh as iceape, then there is something dreadfully wrong with the
memory management of the operating system and/or the web browser software.


With 4GB I am never really memory constrained, and everything works
fine with 100+
tabs open continuously for days. It's hard to remember, but I don't
think I really had
too many problems when it was 1GB and something like 10-30 tabs...




4GB might make a difference, over my 2GB.

However, the memory cache keeps increasing, as does the actual memory 
usage, and, because it is iceape, when, as previously stated, the 
application is closed, whether by crashing or in an orderly manner, the 
memory that it has taken up, is not released, so, after using iceape, 
the ssytem has to be rebooted after iceape has closed, to free up the 
memory that had been used by iceape.


I have had to disable javascript, to get iceape as stable as possible, 
as the "Block pop-ips" does not work, and automatically refereshing web 
pages make iceape viral within the system, as it increasingly devours 
memory, like a flesh-eating disease.


That might be a good analogy for iceape - reather than viral, a 
flesh-eating application.


One thing that might be worth remembering here - you have referred to 
Moz (?) and FF(?).



If in that, you refer to Seamonkey and Firefox, iceape and iceweasel are 
different to the Mozilla products.


Similar, but different.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 08:49, Jens Stimpfle  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Kelly Clowers  
> wrote:
>
>> With 4GB I am never really memory constrained, and everything works
>> fine with 100+
>> tabs open continuously for days. It's hard to remember, but I don't
>> think I really had
>> too many problems when it was 1GB and something like 10-30 tabs...
>>
>
> Just because I'm curious.. What the heck would you ever do with a 100+
> tabs? It seems to be a bit that Mozilla should simply restrict the
> number of open tabs to a sane value like 10.

That would cause people like me to completely flip out. If they did that,
I would go to any lengths to fix it.  Even if they made an obfuscated
change deep in the C++ code, I would learn C++ just to fix it if no one
else figured it out and posted a patch. There is absolutely no way I
could work with 10 tabs. If I really had no choice, I maybe could get
by in 20, but I would hate it. With, say, 50, I could work without feeling
severely constrained.

I haven't not used session restore in, I don't know, 6+ months, but
when I do restart Moz without restoring, the first thing I do is open
2 bookmark sets, one is 9 tabs (slashdot, gmail, news, etc.), the
other is 19 (webcomics). Then I have a window with sysadmin stuff,
and a window full of blog posts that I read at one time or another,
and all sorts of misc. tabs opened here and there.


>Which would improve workflow and the stop of complaints about
>memory usage for quite a lot of users in my opinion. ;-)

In my experience, the really heavy tab users usually have no complaints
about memory usage. I certainly don't. Under a gig res and under 2 gigs
virt in a 4 gig system is very reasonable for the number of tabs I have open.
And as I said, it doesn't really increase beyond that, no matter how long I
leave all those tabs open, or open and close tabs.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Stephen Fishpaste]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 09:16:26AM -0400, B. Alexander wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
> leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
> of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
> significant amount of CPU.

I use Chromium developer version from Ubuntu PPA source -- Debian is
too far behind in Chromium builds, unfortunately.


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RE: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Mike Viau]

> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:43:35 +0200  wrote:
> 
> Am 09/07/2010 03:16 PM, schrob B. Alexander:
> 
> > This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> > chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> > hesitating for several seconds.
> > 
> > So what do others use?
> 
> "Plain Vanilla" flavour of Firefox. Simply downloaded from Mozilla.com
> once extracted in /usr/local/share (and linked to
> /usr/local/bin/firefox) all it takes for an upgrade is getting the
> actual package from Mozilla, cd to /usr/local/share and unpack it.
> Pretty straightfoward. I tried this when I had some trouble with
> Iceweasel from testing and stuck with Firefox. Never had any issues, since,
> 

Has anyone tried compiling 32 bit Firefox or Iceweasel in Debian 64 bit 
(testing for example)?

I found a link for fedora mainly. I was wondering what steps should be taken 
for squeeze specifically.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Compiling_32-bit_Firefox_on_a_Linux_64-bit_OS
  

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Thomas Amm]

Am 09/07/2010 03:16 PM, schrob B. Alexander:

> This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> hesitating for several seconds.
> 
> So what do others use?

"Plain Vanilla" flavour of Firefox. Simply downloaded from Mozilla.com
once extracted in /usr/local/share (and linked to
/usr/local/bin/firefox) all it takes for an upgrade is getting the
actual package from Mozilla, cd to /usr/local/share and unpack it.
Pretty straightfoward. I tried this when I had some trouble with
Iceweasel from testing and stuck with Firefox. Never had any issues, since,


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 23:45, Bret Busby  wrote:
>
> Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy to click
> on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But, iceape
> appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have a viral
> use for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the browser is left
> open, and it does not free up the memory that it has been using, when it is
> closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd occasion that it is
> deliberately closed, rather than the all too frequent crashes). Also, iceape
> does not have the facility for saving sessions, either deliberately, or,
> when the application crashes.

Sure Moz has session saving.  And it's memory management has always been
as good or better than FF. If Iceape doesn't then they are really messing
something up.

> If iceape and iceweasel both were able to save sessions, and, to provide a
> means of splitting sessions into bookmark folders/sets, for each browser
> window open in a session, so that a user can, on opening a new session of
> the browser after a crash, and select options of a new, separate session, or
> restoring the complete old session (or, similarly, for a previous saved
> session that was not saved due to a crash), or, open in a browser window
> (the existing browser window or a new browser window), a single browser
> window (from a bookmakr set from a previous saveds session), it would be
> good.

It's kind of hard to understand what you want to do, but it seems like Mozilla
(and FF?) do pretty much all of that.

> And, if someone could fix the memory issues, it would be good.
>
> When 2GB of RAM is insufficient to run Linux AND a web browser on top od
> Linux, suxh as iceape, then there is something dreadfully wrong with the
> memory management of the operating system and/or the web browser software.

With 4GB I am never really memory constrained, and everything works
fine with 100+
tabs open continuously for days. It's hard to remember, but I don't
think I really had
too many problems when it was 1GB and something like 10-30 tabs...


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Bret Busby wrote:


Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:45:25 +0800 (WST)
From: Bret Busby 
To: Debian-user List 
Subject: Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, B. Alexander wrote:


Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:16:26 -0400
From: B. Alexander 
To: Debian-user List 
Subject: Straw poll: What browser do you use?
Resent-Date: Tue,  7 Sep 2010 13:16:42 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
(lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have 
memory

leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
significant amount of CPU.

This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
hesitating for several seconds.

So what do others use?
--b



Depending on what I want to do, I use Iceape or Iceweasel or konqueror or 
Opera. I also, sometimes, use epiphany. I had used a gnome browser, before 
Debian 5, but it appears to have disappeared with Debian 5, and I do not 
remember what it was named. I used to use Star Office 5.2, until Sun took it 
over and decided to destroy the functionality of Star Office.


However, opera appears to have gone wonky, with the interface having become 
not user-friendly, and it appears to be unsupported, as no means for feedback 
about the deteriorations, appears to exist. But, the earlier version that I 
use, appears to be more secure and stable than the other browsers that I use.


Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy to click 
on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But, iceape 
appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have a viral use 
for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the browser is left 
open, and it does not free up the memory that it has been using, when it is 
closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd occasion that it is 
deliberately closed, rather than the all too frequent crashes). Also, iceape 
does not have the facility for saving sessions, either deliberately, or, when 
the application crashes.


Iceweasel saves sessions when it crashes, but it does not have the option of 
saving the last session and opening a new, separate session, so, when the 
application crashes, to run the application again, either it has to reload 
the crashed session, or, a new session, losing the crashed session.


From what I understand, neither iceape nor iceweasel, nor their body of 
development (I understand that they are not developed by Mozilla), have a 
means for users to provide feedback, to get the software working in a way 
that benefits users.


If iceape and iceweasel both were able to save sessions, and, to provide a 
means of splitting sessions into bookmark folders/sets, for each browser 
window open in a session, so that a user can, on opening a new session of the 
browser after a crash, and select options of a new, separate session, or 
restoring the complete old session (or, similarly, for a previous saved 
session that was not saved due to a crash), or, open in a browser window (the 
existing browser window or a new browser window), a single browser window 
(from a bookmakr set from a previous saveds session), it would be good.


And, if someone could fix the memory issues, it would be good.

When 2GB of RAM is insufficient to run Linux AND a web browser on top od 
Linux, suxh as iceape, then there is something dreadfully wrong with the 
memory management of the operating system and/or the web browser software.


konqueror I use mainly for accessing my gmail accounts, but it allows access 
to only a single gmail account at a time.


The problem with the Linux web browsers, is that, over time, the developers 
became so concerned with whistles and bells, and what the developers wanted 
to do with the applications, that the users were left behind, and the 
software became bloated, unstable, almost (if not) malicious, and, less and 
less user friendly, to the extent that it is a bad idea to update the 
software, as it is less and less usable.


It is a bit like doing system upgrades to the latest version of a 
distribution - it is generally only a good idea, if a user likes playing 
roulette with the user's data and system - "let's gamble everything we have - 
let's do a system upgrade to the latest version, and find whether anything 
works, and whether we have any data left, afterward".





Oh, I forgot, and was reminded today, when I tried to run Epiphany 
today, that it broke itself a while ago, and rendered itself unusable.


Somehow, it deleted the URL text box, so the web browser is unusable, as 
no URL can be entered, and, no means of restoring the UR

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Javier Vasquez]

On 9/7/10, Nuno Magalhães  wrote:
> Running Sid on amd64.

Me too, on both amd64 and i686...

> ...
> 3. Midori - webkit-based, crashes more than Kazehakase.
> ...

I've been testing Midori for a while, and it doesn't crash on me.  It
has some limitations though:

1.-  Java doesn't work properly under firewall.  Though the browser
seems to work OK.  Java works well outside a firewall, and if the sun
version is used, then it gets nicely recognized by java.com test.
Under firewall that fails.

2.-  Under gmail the keyboard is not recognized by the TO, CC, and BCC
fields.  Rest of it works OK.

3.-  The bank I use has a java applet for something they call "virtual
keyboard", and the applet just doesn't work since the virtual keyboard
never shows up.

Other than these 3 issues, I really think Midori is in pretty good
shape for those not using bunch of addons and plugins.  Flash from
adobe works just fine as well...  It doesn't store cookies apparently,
which slow down some things, but is way lighter than
iceweasel/firefox...

-- 
Javier.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Aaron Toponce]

On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 05:56:41PM -0600, Aaron Toponce wrote:
> I never said they would die. I only said that Microsoft is putting more
> effort into HTML5 for IE than Silverlight. It's evident by the lack of
> even Silverlight pages on Microsoft's own site, as well as partner sites.
> 
> No, Microsoft will continue to push .NET, as well as its many devoted
> fans. .NET isn't going anywhere, and I certainly don't expect Microsoft
> to kill it off.

Seems I'm not the only one who has recognized the dilemma Microsoft is
in with HTML5 vs Silverlight:

http://goo.gl/EK73

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o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/09/2010 12:29 PM, Andrei Popescu wrote:

On Mi, 08 sep 10, 19:24:11, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:

On 09/08/2010 06:04 PM, Celejar wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:25:44 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan   wrote:

...


youtube.com watching dumb stuff I don't need to be watching. I used to
just use youtube-dl, and that tended to make me more choosy about what I
would bother with.


+1 for youtube-dl.  I just grab whatever I want, and watch it later
with a proper player.


http://www.youtube.com/html5

Works with chromium-browser and epiphany.

Regards,
Andrei


Well, heck! That's going to turn me into a (more) useless blob! I'm 
going to tell my wife that it's your fault, Andrei.


I'll tell her...I'm testing -- yes, I'm testing software for the "good 
of the community". That's what I'll tell her...


Yeah, that's the ticket.

Uh, seriously, thanks!


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[hugo vanwoerkom]

Angus Hedger wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:58:19 +0200
Steven  wrote:





While I was comparing browsers I did some quick and dirty benchmarking,
results here [1]

With swiftfox AMD64 (downloaded from there site today) showing as






[1] http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4I7n


Great link!

Hugo


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Mi, 08 sep 10, 19:24:11, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:
> On 09/08/2010 06:04 PM, Celejar wrote:
> >On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:25:44 -0400
> >Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:
> >
> >...
> >
> >>youtube.com watching dumb stuff I don't need to be watching. I used to
> >>just use youtube-dl, and that tended to make me more choosy about what I
> >>would bother with.
> >
> >+1 for youtube-dl.  I just grab whatever I want, and watch it later
> >with a proper player.

http://www.youtube.com/html5

Works with chromium-browser and epiphany.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Miles Bader]

Sven Joachim  writes:
>> Iceweasel (3.6.9) tends to grab memory and keep it (closing tabs may
>> free some memory, may not), but eventually reaches a stable point and
>> seems to do OK with memory once it reaches that (it may have long term
>> leaks, but I generally close my browser every few hours anyway).
>> It also has far superior [more functional, vastly faster] keyboard /
>> address-bar functionality (e.g., the "awesomebar" ) than
>> chromium, and generally feels quicker and more responsive.
>
> Really?  I haven't used Chromium that much yet, but it seems to display
> web pages much faster than Iceweasel.  However, there are usability
> issues: no way to quickly enable/disable Javascript, no equivalent to
> about:config for instance.

I'm not really talking about rendering speed (both seem fine in that
respect, maybe chromium is a bit faster for certain types of pages
[javascript heavy?]), but the "feel"; I suppose that's how fast they
respond to keyboard commands etc.

[chromium 5.xxx also had some really awful font-rendering issues
(KDE apps show the same problems, and I gather webkit/kde share some
history...). but those seem to have been fixed in 6.xxx.]

Luckily, of course, the competition seems to be spurring both parties to
greater feats ... :]

-Miles

-- 
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applied to a great multitude of persons. It now means noble by nature and is
taking a bit of a rest.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 09. 09. 2010 11:48:24 je Miles Bader napisal(a):


My god, what on earth are you browsing?! (or are you running an  
ancient version?)




I'm on stock Lenny with stock IceWeasel 3.0.6. If it only happened on  
one machine, I'd think it was some misconfiguration on my part ... but  
it does the same on an AMD64 install on a laptop and on an i386 install  
on our family desktop. Just yesterday my daughter left a simple flash  
game paused and went to lunch -- the CPU usage ramped up (yes, on a  
*paused* flash game, in a single IceWeasel window with a single tab) so  
much we could hear the fans roar from three rooms away.


Don't get me wrong, I hate flash as much as the next guy, only more so.  
Problem is, I have trouble keeping my kids from installing Windows as  
it is. If I tried to dissuade them from even using flash, it would mean  
war.


--
Regards,

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com

Please reply to the list, not to me.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Mark Allums]

On 9/8/2010 2:00 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

In<4c872f30.4060...@allums.com>, Mark Allums wrote:

Chrome allows me to avoid using Windows IE for certain web sites that I
visit regularly.  No other Linux browser is capable of that, in my
experience.


Odd.  I haven't had a MS Windows system available in my household for 6 years.

While Konq used to fail on many sites, I was always about to use Firefox or
Iceweasel to fill in the gaps.



The situation has improved a lot in the last year or so as more and more 
sites come to the realization that Microsoft compatibility is not as 
desirable as standards compatibility (and to a very tiny degree, so has 
Microsoft itself).  The availability of Flash on Linux was a godsend, 
but Iceweasel in Squeeze has had a lot of Flash ups and downs.  I 
couldn't count on it working from day to day.


I have not tried midori; I have now put it on my TODO list.  I second 
that links2 is pretty snazzy, but lack of Javascript is a deal-breaker. 
 I use Gnome, and Konquerer is anathema.  (KDE 4 is anathema to my sanity.)


I keep Windows around for games.  In the family, also, my mother will 
not tolerate any changes to her setup, she uses Windows and is set in 
her ways, and I am called on to maintain that machine.



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Sven Joachim]

On 2010-09-09 11:48 +0200, Miles Bader wrote:

> chromium (6.0.472.53) has the very nice "close a tab and get all its
> memory back" feature which makes it useful on my relatively
> memory-constrained work machine.  However it does tend to use more
> memory than iceweasel while actually performing equivalent tasks, is
> generally buggier, and some features are much creakier (see below).

If you want your memory back in Iceweasel when closing a tab, it is
possible to do this with the browser.sessionstore.max_tabs_undo¹ setting
in about:config.  Personally I find it very useful that accidental tab
closing can easily be undone.

> Iceweasel (3.6.9) tends to grab memory and keep it (closing tabs may
> free some memory, may not), but eventually reaches a stable point and
> seems to do OK with memory once it reaches that (it may have long term
> leaks, but I generally close my browser every few hours anyway).
> It also has far superior [more functional, vastly faster] keyboard /
> address-bar functionality (e.g., the "awesomebar" ) than
> chromium, and generally feels quicker and more responsive.

Really?  I haven't used Chromium that much yet, but it seems to display
web pages much faster than Iceweasel.  However, there are usability
issues: no way to quickly enable/disable Javascript, no equivalent to
about:config for instance.

Sven


¹ http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.sessionstore.max_tabs_undo


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Miles Bader]

Klistvud  writes:
> Epiphany is (marginally) better than Iceweasel/Firefox. Internet  
> browsing on GNU/Linux, frankly, just plain sucks -- I mean, it sucks up  
> all my CPU and all my RAM, permanently. It also makes my machine(s)  
> heat up and my fans roar like a fully loaded B-52.

My god, what on earth are you browsing?! (or are you running an ancient 
version?)

I use iceweasel at home and chromium at work.  Both work pretty well.

chromium (6.0.472.53) has the very nice "close a tab and get all its
memory back" feature which makes it useful on my relatively
memory-constrained work machine.  However it does tend to use more
memory than iceweasel while actually performing equivalent tasks, is
generally buggier, and some features are much creakier (see below).

Iceweasel (3.6.9) tends to grab memory and keep it (closing tabs may
free some memory, may not), but eventually reaches a stable point and
seems to do OK with memory once it reaches that (it may have long term
leaks, but I generally close my browser every few hours anyway).
It also has far superior [more functional, vastly faster] keyboard /
address-bar functionality (e.g., the "awesomebar" ) than
chromium, and generally feels quicker and more responsive.

Overall I'd say I prefer iceweasel, but the chromium tab implementation
make it a good choice in certain contexts.

-Miles

-- 
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Bret Busby]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010, B. Alexander wrote:


Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:16:26 -0400
From: B. Alexander 
To: Debian-user List 
Subject: Straw poll: What browser do you use?
Resent-Date: Tue,  7 Sep 2010 13:16:42 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
(lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
significant amount of CPU.

This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
hesitating for several seconds.

So what do others use?
--b



Depending on what I want to do, I use Iceape or Iceweasel or konqueror 
or Opera. I also, sometimes, use epiphany. I had used a gnome browser, 
before Debian 5, but it appears to have disappeared with Debian 5, and I 
do not remember what it was named. I used to use Star Office 5.2, until 
Sun took it over and decided to destroy the functionality of Star 
Office.


However, opera appears to have gone wonky, with the interface having 
become not user-friendly, and it appears to be unsupported, as no means 
for feedback about the deteriorations, appears to exist. But, the 
earlier version that I use, appears to be more secure and stable than 
the other browsers that I use.


Iceape can be convenient, especially beinfg a suite, so it is easy to 
click on a mailto link, and open up the integrated email composer. But, 
iceape appears to be devoid of memory management, and it appears to have 
a viral use for memory, progressively increasing memory usage if the 
browser is left open, and it does not free up the memory that it has 
been using, when it is closed in an orderly manner (that is, on the odd 
occasion that it is deliberately closed, rather than the all too 
frequent crashes). Also, iceape does not have the facility for saving 
sessions, either deliberately, or, when the application crashes.


Iceweasel saves sessions when it crashes, but it does not have the 
option of saving the last session and opening a new, separate session, 
so, when the application crashes, to run the application again, either 
it has to reload the crashed session, or, a new session, losing the 
crashed session.


From what I understand, neither iceape nor iceweasel, nor their body of 
development (I understand that they are not developed by Mozilla), have 
a means for users to provide feedback, to get the software working in a 
way that benefits users.


If iceape and iceweasel both were able to save sessions, and, to provide 
a means of splitting sessions into bookmark folders/sets, for each 
browser window open in a session, so that a user can, on opening a new 
session of the browser after a crash, and select options of a new, 
separate session, or restoring the complete old session (or, similarly, 
for a previous saved session that was not saved due to a crash), or, 
open in a browser window (the existing browser window or a new browser 
window), a single browser window (from a bookmakr set from a previous 
saveds session), it would be good.


And, if someone could fix the memory issues, it would be good.

When 2GB of RAM is insufficient to run Linux AND a web browser on top od 
Linux, suxh as iceape, then there is something dreadfully wrong with the 
memory management of the operating system and/or the web browser 
software.


konqueror I use mainly for accessing my gmail accounts, but it allows 
access to only a single gmail account at a time.


The problem with the Linux web browsers, is that, over time, the 
developers became so concerned with whistles and bells, and what the 
developers wanted to do with the applications, that the users were left 
behind, and the software became bloated, unstable, almost (if not) 
malicious, and, less and less user friendly, to the extent that it is a 
bad idea to update the software, as it is less and less usable.


It is a bit like doing system upgrades to the latest version of a 
distribution - it is generally only a good idea, if a user likes 
playing roulette with the user's data and system - "let's gamble 
everything we have - let's do a system upgrade to the latest version, 
and find whether anything works, and whether we have any data left, 
afterward".


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
  "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
  A Trilogy In Four Parts",
  written by Douglas Adams,
  published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[i'll teach you to turn away.]

Aaron Toponce  wrote:
AT> Except with text-only browsers, you lose the ability to view images,
AT> video, and other interactive features that the web provides.

well, not quite. i continue to use lynx as my primary browser, 
with zgv in my .mailcap & svgalibs still chugging along. images come up 
just fine! granted i have to swap to x for the fancy bullshit, & i'm 
using firefox there - but i don't prefer it. i only spend about 5% of my 
time in x anyhow; i'm a CLI girl.

lish
cr...@got.net


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Aaron Toponce]

On 9/8/2010 5:22 PM, Angus Hedger wrote:
> I highly doubt Silverlight, .Net, and thus by extension moonlight and
> mono will die, for example MS's new phone OS is pretty much all
> Silverlight and .Net

I never said they would die. I only said that Microsoft is putting more
effort into HTML5 for IE than Silverlight. It's evident by the lack of
even Silverlight pages on Microsoft's own site, as well as partner sites.

No, Microsoft will continue to push .NET, as well as its many devoted
fans. .NET isn't going anywhere, and I certainly don't expect Microsoft
to kill it off.

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. . O   . O O   O . O   . O O   . . O
O O O   . O .   . O O   O O .   O O O



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/08/2010 06:04 PM, Celejar wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:25:44 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:

...


youtube.com watching dumb stuff I don't need to be watching. I used to
just use youtube-dl, and that tended to make me more choosy about what I
would bother with.


+1 for youtube-dl.  I just grab whatever I want, and watch it later
with a proper player.

Celejar


I'm tending -- these days -- to just sample a video in the browser to be 
sure that it might actually be something I want to watch, and then use 
youtube-dl to get the ones that look promising. But -- with all of the 
heavy CPU use and high temperatures I see with the gnash plugin in 
Iceweasel -- I'm about to revert to using youtube-dl alone.


In that case I might almost be as well off using links2. Dang, that's a 
nice piece of software!


Regards,
Gilbert


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:54:07 -0600
Aaron Toponce  wrote:
> I was disappointed that Silverlight didn't take off. The reason being,
> the GNU/Linux community really doesn't have a solid Flash alternative.
> Yeah there's Gnash and others, but they don't play well with a lot of
> the Flash-based sites. Browsing _sucked_ in GNU/Linux for years
> because of this.
> 
> So, with Miguel and Mono, I was eager to see a solid Silverlight
> alternative in Moonlight. Mono was staying very up-to-date with
> the .NET ABI, and there is so much momentum behind Mono, it was hard
> to see Moonlight as failing.

Silverlight was always a lot better than flash on windows, I really
haven’t found much silverlight stuff to try in moonlight, But I havent
really had a lot of luck with the bits i have ran into, maybe due to
lack of effort in my part.

> Then HTML5 started hitting the web, and well, even Microsoft started
> abandoning Silverlight for HTML5 with IE.

I highly doubt Silverlight, .Net, and thus by extension moonlight and
mono will die, for example MS's new phone OS is pretty much all
Silverlight and .Net
 
> I still think that because of Silverlight, the GNU/Linux community
> would have had a much better browsing experience through Moonlight
> and Mono than we currently have with Flash.

Lightspark [1] looks like it might be a nice (hardware accelerated) OSS
flash plugin that uses gnash as a fallback for older stuff. 

I haven’t tried it myself, due to having spent so much time getting the
32bit flash plug-in finally working fully. (Oh, and it looks like
lightspark wants to install pulseaudio, It can go shove that idea
somewhere uncomfortable, I just finished fixing sound after the last
time I tried to use PA!)
 
> But with HTML5 here and now a solid reality, just not wide-spread
> adoption, and now with hardware acceleration hitting the GNU/Linux
> browsers (Firefox/Iceweasel 4 and Chrome/Chromium 7), we _finally_
> have browsers and browsing experiences that DON'T SUCK.
 
I am looking forward to when the later Chrome 7 builds hit linux in a
few weeks, we should have fully working  and hopefully 2D
acceleration (At the moment, turning it all on results in the browser
just outputting a black screen inside the ui), WebGL is already
working (with command line switches).

[1] http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/lightspark

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:25:44 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:

...

> youtube.com watching dumb stuff I don't need to be watching. I used to 
> just use youtube-dl, and that tended to make me more choosy about what I 
> would bother with.

+1 for youtube-dl.  I just grab whatever I want, and watch it later
with a proper player.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Aaron Toponce]

On 9/8/2010 3:07 PM, Angus Hedger wrote:
> Flash might be one of the "evils" of the web, but it better than
> moonlight as most silverlight stuff wont work in moonlight 2.2 where
> as flash v10.1 works with pretty much everything (ignoring the total
> lack of a good 64bit plug-in and the instability of nsplugins!), just
> about. 

I was disappointed that Silverlight didn't take off. The reason being,
the GNU/Linux community really doesn't have a solid Flash alternative.
Yeah there's Gnash and others, but they don't play well with a lot of
the Flash-based sites. Browsing _sucked_ in GNU/Linux for years because
of this.

So, with Miguel and Mono, I was eager to see a solid Silverlight
alternative in Moonlight. Mono was staying very up-to-date with the .NET
ABI, and there is so much momentum behind Mono, it was hard to see
Moonlight as failing.

Then HTML5 started hitting the web, and well, even Microsoft started
abandoning Silverlight for HTML5 with IE.

I still think that because of Silverlight, the GNU/Linux community would
have had a much better browsing experience through Moonlight and Mono
than we currently have with Flash.

But with HTML5 here and now a solid reality, just not wide-spread
adoption, and now with hardware acceleration hitting the GNU/Linux
browsers (Firefox/Iceweasel 4 and Chrome/Chromium 7), we _finally_ have
browsers and browsing experiences that DON'T SUCK.

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. . O   . O O   O . O   . O O   . . O
O O O   . O .   . O O   O O .   O O O



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/08/2010 05:07 PM, Angus Hedger wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:53:58 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:

Ah! That makes more sense. I was kind of feeling dirty for a little
bit there, wondering just who the GNU/Linux developers might be
crawling into bed with!


Chromium is all BSD, its google chrome that is a bit dirty ;)


I should have known.


I wouldn't mind seeing flash go away -- perhaps to be replaced by
HTML5 (and moonlight?). Flash has been mostly a pain to me for years
-- especially when my wife was still using Windows. I'm delighted to
have an Open Source solution for playing flash -- even if it doesn't
exactly work perfectly. At least with Debian package management I
don't have to worry about traces of old, insecure versions of the
player hanging on in the system even after I've supposedly "updated"
it.


Flash might be one of the "evils" of the web, but it better than
moonlight as most silverlight stuff wont work in moonlight 2.2 where
as flash v10.1 works with pretty much everything (ignoring the total
lack of a good 64bit plug-in and the instability of nsplugins!), just
about.


Again, my lack of experience with some of the alternatives (and a bit of 
a sore history with what has always seemed to me to be Adobe's their 
exploit-of-the-day/week/month club) were "informing" my opinion on that 
matter. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the WWW go to text with inline 
pictures and the occasional download link for a movie. I guess I'm a bit 
of a Luddite in that sense.


I have seen some gorgeous stuff done with HTML5 that wouldn't bother me 
to see on a regular basis. But sites that use Flash for navigation 
really, really irk me. Maybe I should take a chill pill on that issue.


8-D


But its a bit like choosing between being death by falling or
crushing, either way, you end up dead!


Hmm. I'll take the fall -- if it's from a sufficient height. At least I 
can enjoy the view on the way down.


;-)

Regards,
Gilbert


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/08/2010 04:55 PM, Sven Joachim wrote:

On 2010-09-08 21:06 +0200, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:


I'll be looking at the the version 6 chromium-browser when it shows up
in testing. (The version 5 browser was removed today.)


Could be a long time until this happens.  Meanwhile, there is no real
reason why you couldn't try the sid version.


I'm pretty patient. I was impressed by version 5, but I'm not in a hurry 
for version 6 -- unless Iceweasel goes south for some reason. I've had 
that happen before, back when I was running Lenny. Something happened 
where I lost any ability to run Java at the one site where I allowed its 
use (thinks.com -- crossword puzzles), and JavaScript / Flash were 
*really* iffy.



I'm especially
interested in seeing what they're doing for flash support. I
understand that it's to be integrated into the browser. (Well, the
Google version, anyway.) I wonder how that's going to work.


Not at all in Chromium on Linux, I think.


Yes, I've been straightened out on that. It will be interesting to see 
how it goes.



I use Iceweasel and have just got used to it. It's really not a bad
browser for me. I use the gnash plugin, noscript and adblock from the
Debian repositories, and the browser is all right -- until I play too
many movies or enable Java temporarily for an online crossword
puzzle. At that point the laptop's CPU temp reading jumps about 20
C. Sometimes I have to kill the browser and related processes.


Well, at least you don't need to worry about the gnash plugin eating too
many resources in Chromium, since it just crashes right away. :-(

Sven


Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

You know, though, I think I'd almost rather have flash just crash than 
have it work half-*ssed. Then I wouldn't waste so much time on 
youtube.com watching dumb stuff I don't need to be watching. I used to 
just use youtube-dl, and that tended to make me more choosy about what I 
would bother with.


Regards,
Gilbert


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Mark Goldshtein]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 5:16 PM, B. Alexander  wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
> leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
> of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
> significant amount of CPU.
>
> This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> hesitating for several seconds.
>
> So what do others use?
> --b
>

Seamonkey.

-- 

Sincerely Yours'
Mark Goldshtein


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:53:58 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:
> Ah! That makes more sense. I was kind of feeling dirty for a little
> bit there, wondering just who the GNU/Linux developers might be
> crawling into bed with!

Chromium is all BSD, its google chrome that is a bit dirty ;)
 
> ;-)
> 
> I wouldn't mind seeing flash go away -- perhaps to be replaced by
> HTML5 (and moonlight?). Flash has been mostly a pain to me for years
> -- especially when my wife was still using Windows. I'm delighted to
> have an Open Source solution for playing flash -- even if it doesn't
> exactly work perfectly. At least with Debian package management I
> don't have to worry about traces of old, insecure versions of the
> player hanging on in the system even after I've supposedly "updated"
> it.

Flash might be one of the "evils" of the web, but it better than
moonlight as most silverlight stuff wont work in moonlight 2.2 where
as flash v10.1 works with pretty much everything (ignoring the total
lack of a good 64bit plug-in and the instability of nsplugins!), just
about. 

But its a bit like choosing between being death by falling or
crushing, either way, you end up dead!

> Thanks for correcting my misapprehension about  the future of flash 
> implementation in chromium-browser.

Your welcome!
 
> Regards,
> Gilbert

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Sven Joachim]

On 2010-09-08 21:06 +0200, Gilbert Sullivan wrote:

> I'll be looking at the the version 6 chromium-browser when it shows up
> in testing. (The version 5 browser was removed today.)

Could be a long time until this happens.  Meanwhile, there is no real
reason why you couldn't try the sid version.

> I'm especially
> interested in seeing what they're doing for flash support. I
> understand that it's to be integrated into the browser. (Well, the
> Google version, anyway.) I wonder how that's going to work.

Not at all in Chromium on Linux, I think.

> I use Iceweasel and have just got used to it. It's really not a bad
> browser for me. I use the gnash plugin, noscript and adblock from the
> Debian repositories, and the browser is all right -- until I play too
> many movies or enable Java temporarily for an online crossword
> puzzle. At that point the laptop's CPU temp reading jumps about 20
> C. Sometimes I have to kill the browser and related processes.

Well, at least you don't need to worry about the gnash plugin eating too
many resources in Chromium, since it just crashes right away. :-(

Sven


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/08/2010 03:50 PM, Angus Hedger wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:06:05 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:

I'll be looking at the the version 6 chromium-browser when it shows
up in testing. (The version 5 browser was removed today.) I'm
especially interested in seeing what they're doing for flash support.
I understand that it's to be integrated into the browser. (Well, the
Google version, anyway.) I wonder how that's going to work.


Only on windows!

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Debian GNU/Linux User   PGP Public Key 0xEE6A4B97


Ah! That makes more sense. I was kind of feeling dirty for a little bit 
there, wondering just who the GNU/Linux developers might be crawling 
into bed with!


;-)

I wouldn't mind seeing flash go away -- perhaps to be replaced by HTML5 
(and moonlight?). Flash has been mostly a pain to me for years -- 
especially when my wife was still using Windows. I'm delighted to have 
an Open Source solution for playing flash -- even if it doesn't exactly 
work perfectly. At least with Debian package management I don't have to 
worry about traces of old, insecure versions of the player hanging on in 
the system even after I've supposedly "updated" it.


Thanks for correcting my misapprehension about  the future of flash 
implementation in chromium-browser.


Regards,
Gilbert


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:06:05 -0400
Gilbert Sullivan  wrote:
> I'll be looking at the the version 6 chromium-browser when it shows
> up in testing. (The version 5 browser was removed today.) I'm
> especially interested in seeing what they're doing for flash support.
> I understand that it's to be integrated into the browser. (Well, the
> Google version, anyway.) I wonder how that's going to work.

Only on windows!

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Gilbert Sullivan]

On 09/08/2010 02:17 PM, hugo vanwoerkom wrote:

B. Alexander wrote:

I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting
unusable. I have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a
3.0GHz C2D with a (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or
xulrunner-stub) have memory leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats
up a significant amount (10-30%) of memory. The work box has 3GB and
the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a significant amount of CPU.

This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system
was chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages
were hesitating for several seconds.

So what do others use?
--b


google chrome on Lenny on a Acer Aspire Laptop:

ii google-chrome-stable 6.0.472.55-r58392 The web browser from Google

Hugo


I'll be looking at the the version 6 chromium-browser when it shows up 
in testing. (The version 5 browser was removed today.) I'm especially 
interested in seeing what they're doing for flash support. I understand 
that it's to be integrated into the browser. (Well, the Google version, 
anyway.) I wonder how that's going to work.


I use Iceweasel and have just got used to it. It's really not a bad 
browser for me. I use the gnash plugin, noscript and adblock from the 
Debian repositories, and the browser is all right -- until I play too 
many movies or enable Java temporarily for an online crossword puzzle. 
At that point the laptop's CPU temp reading jumps about 20 C. Sometimes 
I have to kill the browser and related processes.


I don't mind closing the browser after a couple of hours of use, so the 
issues probably don't hit me as hard as they do the folks who are averse 
to doing that.


Several people in this thread mentioned links2. Wow! That is a slick 
browser! I'm almost stubborn enough to use it as my default. We'll see 
how it works out. It certainly works better on my system than w3m with 
w3m-img. I wasn't having much luck seeing images with that puppy.



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[hugo vanwoerkom]

B. Alexander wrote:
I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting 
unusable. I have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 
3.0GHz C2D with a (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or 
xulrunner-stub) have memory leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats 
up a significant amount (10-30%) of memory. The work box has 3GB and the 
home box has 4GB. It also eats up a significant amount of CPU.


This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was 
chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were 
hesitating for several seconds.


So what do others use?
--b


google chrome on Lenny on a Acer Aspire Laptop:

ii  google-chrome-stable  6.0.472.55-r58392 The web browser 
from Google


Hugo


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:12:56 -0500
Kent West  wrote:

> On 09/08/2010 08:50 AM, Angus Hedger wrote:
> > No problem, due to not having anything better todo, I did some
> > comparisons of windows 7 vs Debian, see here [1] and [2], I ran
> > everything I could get to finish the test and install.
> >
> > All tests where ran with clean profiles.
> >
> >
> > [1] http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/Veyka/browsers1.jpg
> > [2]
> > http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4II3
> 
> 
> Which is better/faster in these charts, the longer bars or the
> shorter ones?
> 


Longer/higher means faster.

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Alois Mahdal]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:16:26 +0200, B. Alexander  wrote:



So what do others use?
--b


Opera 10.

Oh, it seems that I'm only one that's using Opera as default on my Debian
box. On Win, It's been my #1 for years and I'm so used that I simply can't
abandon all that so-comfy-comfy design :D

Even that it's closed, it doesn't play perfectly with Flash (especially
on amd64)--but that's getting way better and it's somehow sluggish onload
compared to FF clones, even somehow unstable.

I still love it :D

Thx,
Al.

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...using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Thomas H. George]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2010 at 09:16:26AM -0400, B. Alexander wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
> leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
> of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
> significant amount of CPU.
> 
> This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> hesitating for several seconds.
> 
> So what do others use?
> --b

One vote for iceape.

Tom


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 08:49:25 -0500
Kent West  wrote:

...

> Here's the screenshot I saw at the 
> http://links.twibright.com/features.php link:
> 
> http://links.twibright.com/shots/shot1.png
> 
> And here's what I see on my machine:
> 
> http://goshen.acu.edu/westk/links_shot1.png
> 
> This is when I run "links2 -g &".

Fine, but my point was that if you just open 'slashdot.org' in, say,
IW, you'll also get something much less prettier than that screenshot.
I saw no images at all, but now I realize that this is because
JavaScript is disabled.  Enabling it causes some pictures to load.  I
assume that the twibright screenshot was taken at a point in /.'s
hitory when JS was less essential.  [links has no JS support.]

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Michal]

Really?  I was playing StarCraft II earlier tonight.  Wine is quite adept at
many games now.

I wouldn't consider myself a PC gamer, but I did build this system with 2x
7800 GTX, overclocked, in SLI mode back in 2005.  I simply don't buy games
that wine won't run, or I buy them for my Wii, XBoX 360, or PS3.

I would upgrade the video card(s), but I'm waiting for (a) the radeonhd driver
and kernel to perform better than my non-free nvidia stuff and (b) a tiny bit
more flexibility cash flow.

I figure if I can get good performance out of the radeonhd stuff, why use non-
Free Software?  I also figure that if I buy a card and can't get radeonhd to
perform well with the rest of my system, moving to proprietary ATI/AMD stuff
is "just" a step sideways from the NVidia stuff, and ATI/AMD is being the
better citizen in the Free Software arena.
   
Games are getting better on Linux I will agree, but I honestly do not 
want to have to compromise in any of that area or have to mess around. I 
want the latest games to run out the box on the highest settings my 
computer will run them at. I won't buy a console as my PC is far 
superior and I am not bothered enough to have your rule on if it doesn't 
work on Wine I wont buy it. I keep windows for the gaming and I see it 
staying that way for quite a while. I get the same impression from a lot 
of other people when I used to go to LANS (multiplay UK lans etc).


I'd like to be more bothered about the free software bit when it comes 
to games and graphics cards, but really I'm not. I want best graphics 
and performance for the latest games. But it's all horses for courses at 
the end of the day :)



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kent West]

On 09/08/2010 08:50 AM, Angus Hedger wrote:

No problem, due to not having anything better todo, I did some
comparisons of windows 7 vs Debian, see here [1] and [2], I ran
everything I could get to finish the test and install.

All tests where ran with clean profiles.


[1] http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/Veyka/browsers1.jpg
[2] http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4II3



Which is better/faster in these charts, the longer bars or the shorter ones?

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:30:33 +0200
Klistvud  wrote:

> Dne, 08. 09. 2010 02:23:42 je Celejar napisal(a):
> > > browsing on GNU/Linux, frankly, just plain sucks -- I mean, it  
> > sucks up
> > > all my CPU and all my RAM, permanently. It also makes my machine(s)
> > 
> > Permanently?  I assume you mean that closing tabs / windows doesn't
> > help?  That's not usually my experience (with IW).
> > 
> 
> I didn't make myself clear enough: "permanently" was meant as "every  
> time I start it". Closing tabs/windows does help. But, with all tabs  
> and windows closed, believe it or not, internet browsing becomes a bit  
> of a problem ... ;P

Close *and then reopen* ;)

> > I'm still waiting for a TUI browser with Javascript support.
> > 
> 
> Me too. I'm not holding my breath anymore though. The direction the  
> world-wide-wait is taking is exactly the *opposite* of fast and lean  
> browsing. Give a man a highway and he'll see to it that the traffic  
> stops to a crawl.

:)

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:11:40 -0400
"B. Alexander"  wrote:

> I didn't figure that was a problem, but I thought I would mention it, both
> from a "this may be your problem" perspective, and (more importantly) a
> "this is why I really don't want to part from firefox"...especially the
> adblock plugin. I worked at a site where we had to use windows and IE, and I
> never realized how horrible an experience surfing the web was for mere
> mortals...:) You get spoiled not to have to put up with all the advertising
> swill...

Does AdBlock do anything that privoxy doesn't?  I'm a long time privoxy
user, but if there are any significant advantages to AB, I'd try it,
since it seems to be quite popular.  All else being equal, though, I
prefer to install as few extensions as possible, so if an external
proxy works, I'm going to go with it.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:02:25 +0200
Klistvud  wrote:

> Dne, 08. 09. 2010 01:20:22 je Angus Hedger napisal(a):
> > 
> > [1]
> > http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4I7n
> 
> Great link, thanx!

No problem, due to not having anything better todo, I did some
comparisons of windows 7 vs Debian, see here [1] and [2], I ran
everything I could get to finish the test and install.

All tests where ran with clean profiles.


[1] http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/Veyka/browsers1.jpg
[2] http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4II3
[3] System: Debian Squeeze (with some pulled in from sid/experimental),
kernel 2.6.35.4. Q6600 @ 2.4ghz, 8gig ddr2 @ 800mhz gtx260 with newest
blob.
--
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Angus Hedger

Debian GNU/Linux User   PGP Public Key 0xEE6A4B97


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kent West]

On 09/07/2010 10:03 PM, Celejar wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:29:43 -0500
Kent West  wrote:

...

   

I just aptitude install'd links, and had no graphics mode. I googled a
solution, and aptitude install'd links2 and ran "links2 -g", which
kicked it into graphics mode, but it was WAY slow, and Slashdot looked
nothing like the screenshots in the link above. What am I doing wrong?
 

It's pretty fast here, so I don't know about that.  As for looking like
the screenshot, I'd compare the same page opened in links and a GUI
browser.  The /. homepage doesn't actually look that much different to
me, at least in terms of images shown.  The links rendition is
certainly pretty ugly, but I suspect that this is due to the fact
that /. makes heavy use of CSS for styling, which links doesn't handle
very well (some of the CSS seems to actually be dumped to the page as
text). I also tried the Yahoo home page; the larger images seem to be
there, but the general page layout is once again different.  If you're
really getting strange results, try posting screenshots somewhere, and
we'll take a look.

Celejar
   


Here's the screenshot I saw at the 
http://links.twibright.com/features.php link:


http://links.twibright.com/shots/shot1.png

And here's what I see on my machine:

http://goshen.acu.edu/westk/links_shot1.png

This is when I run "links2 -g &".

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[B. Alexander]

I didn't figure that was a problem, but I thought I would mention it, both
from a "this may be your problem" perspective, and (more importantly) a
"this is why I really don't want to part from firefox"...especially the
adblock plugin. I worked at a site where we had to use windows and IE, and I
never realized how horrible an experience surfing the web was for mere
mortals...:) You get spoiled not to have to put up with all the advertising
swill...

--b

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Kelly Clowers wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 04:15, B. Alexander  wrote:
> > I'm running 3.5.11 on sid.
> >
> > One of the problems that I have (and maybe one of my problems with
> > performance) is that there are several extensions that I can't live
> without.
> > I have a slew of them installed, but the main ones I use on a daily basis
> > include:
> >
> > * AdBlock Plus
> > * Readability
> > * Secure Login
> > * NoScript
> > * FoxTab (meh...)
> > * CS Lite
> > * BugMeNot (though I haven't used it in a while...)
> >
> > I have several others installed, but these are the ones I use more or
> less
> > daily.
>
> I don't know, I have a lot of extensions on my Mozilla and FF, and they
> have
> never caused performance problems for me.
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly Clowers
>
>
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 04:15, B. Alexander  wrote:
> I'm running 3.5.11 on sid.
>
> One of the problems that I have (and maybe one of my problems with
> performance) is that there are several extensions that I can't live without.
> I have a slew of them installed, but the main ones I use on a daily basis
> include:
>
> * AdBlock Plus
> * Readability
> * Secure Login
> * NoScript
> * FoxTab (meh...)
> * CS Lite
> * BugMeNot (though I haven't used it in a while...)
>
> I have several others installed, but these are the ones I use more or less
> daily.

I don't know, I have a lot of extensions on my Mozilla and FF, and they have
never caused performance problems for me.

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 11:08:14 +0200
Klistvud  wrote:

Hello Klistvud,

> Or, better, 'Debian at heart' instead of 'Intel inside'. But I'm
> geting off topic ...

Not Debian at Heart, but look at;



for various GNU/Linux distro badges.

-- 
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 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Dotan Cohen]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 16:16, B. Alexander  wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
> leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
> of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
> significant amount of CPU.
>
> This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> hesitating for several seconds.
>
> So what do others use?
> --b
>

I'm still on Firefox due to the terrific Tree Style Tabs extension:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890/

That said, I dislike Firefox. I'll be on Opera or Chrome as soon as
one of them gets this feature (or a third party makes it available, as
in Firefox.).

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[B. Alexander]

I'm running 3.5.11 on sid.

One of the problems that I have (and maybe one of my problems with
performance) is that there are several extensions that I can't live without.
I have a slew of them installed, but the main ones I use on a daily basis
include:

* AdBlock Plus
* Readability
* Secure Login
* NoScript
* FoxTab (meh...)
* CS Lite
* BugMeNot (though I haven't used it in a while...)

I have several others installed, but these are the ones I use more or less
daily.

--b

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Camaleón  wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:16:26 -0400, B. Alexander wrote:
>
> > I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting
> > unusable.
>
> What version of Iceweasel?
>
> Seems that 3.5.x are getting better in preventing that "leaks" and also
> are a bit more resource-wise.
>
> > I have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a
> > 3.0GHz C2D with a (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or
> > xulrunner-stub) have memory leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats
> > up a significant amount (10-30%) of memory. The work box has 3GB and the
> > home box has 4GB. It also eats up a significant amount of CPU.
>
> Javascript and flash can also make you browser to jump in resources
> consumption...
>
> > This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> > chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> > hesitating for several seconds.
> >
> > So what do others use?
>
> Iceweasel :-P
>
> Greetings,
>
> --
> Camaleón
>
>
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>

Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <4c875d58.3050...@sharescope.co.uk>, Michal wrote:
>> Odd.  I haven't had a MS Windows system available in my household for 6
>> years.
>
>Not really that odd if you play a lot of the latest games on a high spec
>PC :)

Really?  I was playing StarCraft II earlier tonight.  Wine is quite adept at 
many games now.

I wouldn't consider myself a PC gamer, but I did build this system with 2x 
7800 GTX, overclocked, in SLI mode back in 2005.  I simply don't buy games 
that wine won't run, or I buy them for my Wii, XBoX 360, or PS3.

I would upgrade the video card(s), but I'm waiting for (a) the radeonhd driver 
and kernel to perform better than my non-free nvidia stuff and (b) a tiny bit 
more flexibility cash flow.

I figure if I can get good performance out of the radeonhd stuff, why use non-
Free Software?  I also figure that if I buy a card and can't get radeonhd to 
perform well with the rest of my system, moving to proprietary ATI/AMD stuff 
is "just" a step sideways from the NVidia stuff, and ATI/AMD is being the 
better citizen in the Free Software arena.
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Michal]

Odd.  I haven't had a MS Windows system available in my household for 6 years.

   
Not really that odd if you play a lot of the latest games on a high spec 
PC :)



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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 08. 09. 2010 11:04:17 je Klistvud napisal(a):



Someone should make "branding" stickers so we could stick proud  
'Debian-ready' stickers over those gooey spots where 'Windows-ready'  
stickers used to be.




Or, better, 'Debian at heart' instead of 'Intel inside'. But I'm geting  
off topic ...


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Please reply to the list, not to me.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 08. 09. 2010 09:00:29 je Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. napisal(a):


I haven't had a MS Windows system available in my household for 6  
years.




It's only been about 2 years since I've got rid of the last  
dual-booting machine in our household. Now, I'd install debian even on  
our toaster if only it had enough RAM ...


Someone should make "branding" stickers so we could stick proud  
'Debian-ready' stickers over those gooey spots where 'Windows-ready'  
stickers used to be.


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 08. 09. 2010 02:23:42 je Celejar napisal(a):
> browsing on GNU/Linux, frankly, just plain sucks -- I mean, it  
sucks up

> all my CPU and all my RAM, permanently. It also makes my machine(s)

Permanently?  I assume you mean that closing tabs / windows doesn't
help?  That's not usually my experience (with IW).



I didn't make myself clear enough: "permanently" was meant as "every  
time I start it". Closing tabs/windows does help. But, with all tabs  
and windows closed, believe it or not, internet browsing becomes a bit  
of a problem ... ;P




I'm still waiting for a TUI browser with Javascript support.



Me too. I'm not holding my breath anymore though. The direction the  
world-wide-wait is taking is exactly the *opposite* of fast and lean  
browsing. Give a man a highway and he'll see to it that the traffic  
stops to a crawl.


--
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Klistvud
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Klistvud]

Dne, 08. 09. 2010 01:20:22 je Angus Hedger napisal(a):


[1] http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4I7n


Great link, thanx!

--
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <4c872f30.4060...@allums.com>, Mark Allums wrote:
>Chrome allows me to avoid using Windows IE for certain web sites that I
>visit regularly.  No other Linux browser is capable of that, in my
>experience.

Odd.  I haven't had a MS Windows system available in my household for 6 years.

While Konq used to fail on many sites, I was always about to use Firefox or 
Iceweasel to fill in the gaps.
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Mark Allums]

For those who dislike Chrome, how long has it been since you tried it? 
I tried it at version 1 (one) and removed it immediately.


But they are up to version 6 (six) now.  A lot of changes and 
improvements have been made.


Chrome allows me to avoid using Windows IE for certain web sites that I 
visit regularly.  No other Linux browser is capable of that, in my 
experience.


MAA


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kelly Clowers]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 06:16, B. Alexander  wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have memory
> leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount (10-30%)
> of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also eats up a
> significant amount of CPU.
>
> This morning, after idling all weekend, iceweasel on my work system was
> chewing up between 70 and 100% of my cpus, and scrolling pages were
> hesitating for several seconds.
>
> So what do others use?
> --b
>

I use Mozilla 1.9.1 aka SeaMonkey 2.0, 64-bit version


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Howard Eisenberger]

On 2010-09-07, B. Alexander wrote:

> So what do others use?

Iceweasel, iceape, lynx here. Straight Debian on x86 and sparc.

Regards,

Howard E.
Ottawa


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:29:43 -0500
Kent West  wrote:

...

> I just aptitude install'd links, and had no graphics mode. I googled a
> solution, and aptitude install'd links2 and ran "links2 -g", which
> kicked it into graphics mode, but it was WAY slow, and Slashdot looked
> nothing like the screenshots in the link above. What am I doing wrong?

It's pretty fast here, so I don't know about that.  As for looking like
the screenshot, I'd compare the same page opened in links and a GUI
browser.  The /. homepage doesn't actually look that much different to
me, at least in terms of images shown.  The links rendition is
certainly pretty ugly, but I suspect that this is due to the fact
that /. makes heavy use of CSS for styling, which links doesn't handle
very well (some of the CSS seems to actually be dumped to the page as
text). I also tried the Yahoo home page; the larger images seem to be
there, but the general page layout is once again different.  If you're
really getting strange results, try posting screenshots somewhere, and
we'll take a look.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Kent West]

 On 9/7/10 8:30 PM, Celejar wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:05:05 -0600
> Aaron Toponce  wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Except with text-only browsers, you lose the ability to view images,
>> video, and other interactive features that the web provides.
> links might be a good compromise; it has a graphics mode, in which you
> can see images, but it's still basically a text browser, with much of
> the performance benefit that that entails, IIRC.
>
> http://links.twibright.com/
>
> See screenshots of both modes here:
>
> http://links.twibright.com/features.php
>
> Celejar
I just aptitude install'd links, and had no graphics mode. I googled a
solution, and aptitude install'd links2 and ran "links2 -g", which
kicked it into graphics mode, but it was WAY slow, and Slashdot looked
nothing like the screenshots in the link above. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks!

-- 
Kent


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Andrew Reid]

On Tuesday 07 September 2010 09:16:26 B. Alexander wrote:
> I'm just wondering, since firefox/iceweasel seems to be getting unusable. I
> have a 2.2GHz C2D box with an nvidia card at home, and a 3.0GHz C2D with a
> (lame) ATI card at work. I find that firefox (or xulrunner-stub) have
> memory leaks, and after a couple of days, it eats up a significant amount
> (10-30%) of memory. The work box has 3GB and the home box has 4GB. It also
> eats up a significant amount of CPU.

  Recently switched to Google Chrome on my netbook, and set up 
the "Flashblock" add-on -- Flash seems to be getting more common,
and more of a CPU hog.

  The major downside is that the version I have seems unable to work
with the PDF plug-in from Adobe, so I have to open them in an external
app.  It's annoying, but not a deal-breaker.

-- A.
-- 
Andrew Reid / rei...@bellatlantic.net


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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:05:05 -0600
Aaron Toponce  wrote:

...

> Except with text-only browsers, you lose the ability to view images,
> video, and other interactive features that the web provides.

links might be a good compromise; it has a graphics mode, in which you
can see images, but it's still basically a text browser, with much of
the performance benefit that that entails, IIRC.

http://links.twibright.com/

See screenshots of both modes here:

http://links.twibright.com/features.php

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 15:45:34 -0500
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."  wrote:

...

> installed.  At the very least you need AdBlock Plus, NoScript, and 
> FlashBlock.  
> I found these made from of much lighter browsing experience even with dozens 
> of tabs open.  Without these extensions, Iceweasel slowed and took far too 
> much memory (more than Konqueror) when opening 18-24 tabs.  I found the 
> Iceweasel extensions to be quite easy to toggle on/off as specific websites 
> needed them.

I've always used privoxy instead of AdBlock Plus.  I've never tried the
latter, but I don't really like browsers or extensions, so I figure
that the more I can do outside the browser, the better ;)

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:16:26 -0400
"B. Alexander"  wrote:

...

> So what do others use?

IW, with NoScript, Flashblock, and other extensions as necessary, and
through privoxy for ad blocking and so on.  I use two profiles - my
main one, in which I basically allow no Javascript, cookies or Flash,
for most of my basic browsing, and I often have dozens of tabs open in
it.  The only downside that I've experienced is that on startup, it can
take a while to open all those tabs (when I've saved a session with
many open tabs).  I also have a second profile, where I allow some
cookies (whitelisted sites, and per-session only), some scripts
(whitelisted sites, some permanently, some on a session by session
basis) and Flash (but a site that wants Flash will first have to pass
through my two lines of defense: NoScript and FlashBlock).  In this
second profile, I frequently do a "Clear all private data", and often
restart it, for good measure, to keep contamination to a minimum ;)

I don't generally see memory / CPU problems with my main profile, but I
sometimes do with the secondary one.  Nothing that restarting it won't
fix, though, and as I've explained, I keep most of my open tabs in the
other profile, so restarting the secondary one is no big deal.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:43:16 +0100
Nuno Magalhães  wrote:

...

> And for when the flashplugin for amd64 stops working. Is gnash a
> viable alternative?

No.  I have yet to get it to work on a site that needs flash.  I'm sure
it works on some, but you certainly can't rely on it to do Flash
dependably.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 15:47:00 +0200
Klistvud  wrote:

...

> Epiphany is (marginally) better than Iceweasel/Firefox. Internet  
> browsing on GNU/Linux, frankly, just plain sucks -- I mean, it sucks up  
> all my CPU and all my RAM, permanently. It also makes my machine(s)  

Permanently?  I assume you mean that closing tabs / windows doesn't
help?  That's not usually my experience (with IW).

> heat up and my fans roar like a fully loaded B-52.
> Disabling all flash and other flishy-flashy-bang-blink-boom-whiz  
> plugins may help a bit. Or replacing your graphical browser with a  
> text-only browser like w3m/elinks/lynx, if you can afford to.

I'm still waiting for a TUI browser with Javascript support.

Celejar
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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Aaron Toponce]

On 09/07/2010 02:55 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> In <20100907151244.gk7...@poseidon.cocyt.us>, Aaron Toponce wrote:
>> Your browser is caching
>> all the pages for each tab you use. The more the tabs, the more the
>> cache. The more the cache, the more the RAM you chew through. This is
>> fundamental to all tab-based browsers.
> 
> Same number of tabs with the same URLs.  Konqueror remains fast of light at 
> 18 
> tabs.  Iceweasel process starts to bog down and begin churning through my 
> RAM.  
> No javascript, large images, some flash, which both browsers render 
> (incorrectly) using gnash or a variant.
> 
> It's certainly not as bad as it has been in the past, but I think 
> characterizing Iceweasel memory usage as fundamental to having tabs 
> ludicrous, 
> especially with the number of counter-examples around.

So you understand more of what you're talking about:

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/009749.html

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Re: Straw poll: What browser do you use?

[Angus Hedger]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:58:19 +0200
Steven  wrote:
> I use swiftfox, it's the latest firefox code recompiled to be more CPU
> specific in terms of compile time optimization.
> I find it to be pretty stable, also note that swiftfox is more
> up-to-date than the Iceweasel package.
> It certainly seems snappier than the vanilla firefox from firefox.com.
> Website: http://getswiftfox.com
> 
> Debian packages and repositories are available.

I had tried swiftfox a wee while back, but it was both more out of date
than the squeeze ff and the AMD64 build didnt work, they seem to have
fixed both of these problems.

While I was comparing browsers I did some quick and dirty benchmarking,
results here [1]

With swiftfox AMD64 (downloaded from there site today) showing as
Firefox, both firefox versions used the same profile (xmarks, adblocker,
lastpass, flashblock and a few other gui tweaks).

swiftfox is noticeably faster than iceweasel, so thats a keeper, thanks!

But Chrome still smokes them, if you can live with its limitations (I
can)

> Kind regards,
> Steven
> 
> 

[1] http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/results.action?key=4I7n
System: q6...@2.4ghz (stock) 8gig DDR2 @ 800mhz Squeeze AMD64 with
2.6.35.4 kernel nVidia 260GTX with newest blob.

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Debian GNU/Linux User   PGP Public Key 0xEE6A4B97


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