Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

thank you very much

David Wright:
> On Sat 11 Feb 2017 at 12:35:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> Jimmy Johnson:
>>> On 02/10/2017 05:49 PM, David Wright wrote:
 On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> Hello,
> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to
> Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
> but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
> packages without much problem, depends on the user.

 Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
 from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
 look very pretty in red):
   Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
   downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
   breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
   ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
   even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.
 Cheers,
 David.
>>>
>>> Hi David, Synaptic will not let you install a broken package.  If you
>>> are running sid/testing sometimes a package version will become obsolete
>>> and need a change or a video driver version is not working and needs a
>>> change, etc. If you're running in a GUI Synaptic is handy to have
>>> installed.  And yes, it's using "dpkg".
>>
>> One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a way
>> to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know where
>> such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.
> 
> I use aptitude rather than synaptic so you'll have to compensate for
> that in what follows. There are three logs that I use.
> 
> The first is /var/log/aptitude.log which is rotated for only six
> months. (I don't think I've changed any log rotation parameters.)
> This only shows what you told aptitude itself to do, and only your
> intentions, not the results (which might have been unsuccessful).
> It also doesn't bother about versions, only package names.
> 
> The second was mentioned and is /var/log/apt/history.log which is
> rotated for twelve months. This includes changes made with both
> aptitude and apt-get, and it includes the previous and new version
> numbers. That makes it messy to parse as you have to deal with
> two levels of commas: ... pkga (ver1, ver2), pkgb (ver3, ver4), ...
> 
> The third is /var/log/apt/term.log (also twelve months) which logs
> all the results of apt's work, but lacks any of your input. So you
> need to look at the other logs to find out why apt did what it did.
> It's very long-winded because it even includes the "progress bars".
> 
>> I understand it all relates to what depends on what and who is breaking
>> whom.  If it is a package that depends on other "stuff" but nothing
>> depends on it you can install something from debian1 in its beta version
>> and all else is fine.  But if you go one version back of one little
>> thing that 100 things depend on, you may get 90 things not working.
>> This is my simplistic understanding. Out of my panic experimentation I
>> have run into situations that it becomes a great puzzle of why the
>> system is still working.  Like creating a mess and breaking the system
>> then reinstalling an earlier version of the distribution ON TOP of the
>> mesh, same root and user names and passwords,
>> then try to locate all the things that had been installed and upgraded
>> that are not on the dpkg list and if not recovered they will remain
>> unupdated.  And it works!  Like magic!  I think all synaptic does is
>> simplifying and remembering all the correct syntax of dpkg commands and
>> executing them for you.
> 
> Well, I'd be interested to see the term.log from a session where
> someone downgrades "a couple hundred packages without much problem"
> as reported above. According to your experience, their statement of
> "depends on the user" is untrue. Synaptic just sorts it all out for
> you, though that's surprising in view of your last sentence.
> 
> I have little experience of downgrading, but have read plenty of
> postings here about how difficult it can be. I would want a solid
> backup system in place at the time, particularly if I were paying
> bills with the work. In the past I always depended on having duplicate
> systems and some bash scripts to get from the debian-installer to a
> working system in short order.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

Joe:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:35:00 +
> GiaThnYgeia  wrote:
> 
>> One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a
>> way to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know
>> where such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.
> 
> Try File -> History.

Most valuable piece of advice in ages.
A gift from the snail heavens, sometimes you can only find something if
you already know the lingo of what it is called. A log of the history is
kept there and synaptic reads it and reports it as history.
At /var/log/apt/history there is a log of the month and individual
archives of the logs of previous months.

Here is the juicy part of what I was looking for:

(Debian Bible/Manual)
2.2.9. Package activity logs
You can check package activity history in the log files.

Table 2.12. The log files for package activities
filecontent
/var/log/dpkg.log   Log of dpkg level activity for all package activities
/var/log/apt/term.log   Log of generic APT activity
/var/log/aptitude   Log of aptitude command activity


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Joe]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:35:00 +
GiaThnYgeia  wrote:

> Jimmy Johnson:
> > On 02/10/2017 05:49 PM, David Wright wrote:  
> >> On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:  
> >>> Hello,
> >>> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go
> >>> to Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a
> >>> time but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
> >>> packages without much problem, depends on the user.  
> >>
> >> Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
> >> from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
> >> look very pretty in red):
> >>   Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
> >>   downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
> >>   breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
> >>   ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
> >>   even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.
> >> Cheers,
> >> David.  
> > 
> > Hi David, Synaptic will not let you install a broken package.  If
> > you are running sid/testing sometimes a package version will become
> > obsolete and need a change or a video driver version is not working
> > and needs a change, etc. If you're running in a GUI Synaptic is
> > handy to have installed.  And yes, it's using "dpkg".  
> 
> One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a
> way to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know
> where such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.

Try File -> History.


> 
> I understand it all relates to what depends on what and who is
> breaking whom.  If it is a package that depends on other "stuff" but
> nothing depends on it you can install something from debian1 in its
> beta version and all else is fine.  But if you go one version back of
> one little thing that 100 things depend on, you may get 90 things not
> working. This is my simplistic understanding. Out of my panic
> experimentation I have run into situations that it becomes a great
> puzzle of why the system is still working.  Like creating a mess and
> breaking the system then reinstalling an earlier version of the
> distribution ON TOP of the mesh, same root and user names and
> passwords, then try to locate all the things that had been installed
> and upgraded that are not on the dpkg list and if not recovered they
> will remain unupdated.  And it works!  Like magic!  I think all
> synaptic does is simplifying and remembering all the correct syntax
> of dpkg commands and executing them for you.

The only real and safe way of going back is with backups. If you were
going to make a serious attempt to do that, probably enabling LVM
snapshots (with adequate spare storage) would be the way to go. There's
no equivalent for Windows' Restore Points, but then again, there is no
version of Windows which operates as a continuously viable rolling
release, as do sid and pre-freeze testing.

I use sid on workstations, with no valuable local data, and keep backups
of /etc and --get-selections. That way, if complete disaster strikes, I
can reinstall with minimum trouble. I've done it three or four times in
about ten years, most recently after an attempt to move to systemd.

-- 
Joe

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[David Wright]

On Sat 11 Feb 2017 at 12:35:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> Jimmy Johnson:
> > On 02/10/2017 05:49 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >> On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to
> >>> Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
> >>> but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
> >>> packages without much problem, depends on the user.
> >>
> >> Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
> >> from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
> >> look very pretty in red):
> >>   Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
> >>   downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
> >>   breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
> >>   ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
> >>   even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.
> >> Cheers,
> >> David.
> > 
> > Hi David, Synaptic will not let you install a broken package.  If you
> > are running sid/testing sometimes a package version will become obsolete
> > and need a change or a video driver version is not working and needs a
> > change, etc. If you're running in a GUI Synaptic is handy to have
> > installed.  And yes, it's using "dpkg".
> 
> One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a way
> to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know where
> such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.

I use aptitude rather than synaptic so you'll have to compensate for
that in what follows. There are three logs that I use.

The first is /var/log/aptitude.log which is rotated for only six
months. (I don't think I've changed any log rotation parameters.)
This only shows what you told aptitude itself to do, and only your
intentions, not the results (which might have been unsuccessful).
It also doesn't bother about versions, only package names.

The second was mentioned and is /var/log/apt/history.log which is
rotated for twelve months. This includes changes made with both
aptitude and apt-get, and it includes the previous and new version
numbers. That makes it messy to parse as you have to deal with
two levels of commas: ... pkga (ver1, ver2), pkgb (ver3, ver4), ...

The third is /var/log/apt/term.log (also twelve months) which logs
all the results of apt's work, but lacks any of your input. So you
need to look at the other logs to find out why apt did what it did.
It's very long-winded because it even includes the "progress bars".

> I understand it all relates to what depends on what and who is breaking
> whom.  If it is a package that depends on other "stuff" but nothing
> depends on it you can install something from debian1 in its beta version
> and all else is fine.  But if you go one version back of one little
> thing that 100 things depend on, you may get 90 things not working.
> This is my simplistic understanding. Out of my panic experimentation I
> have run into situations that it becomes a great puzzle of why the
> system is still working.  Like creating a mess and breaking the system
> then reinstalling an earlier version of the distribution ON TOP of the
> mesh, same root and user names and passwords,
> then try to locate all the things that had been installed and upgraded
> that are not on the dpkg list and if not recovered they will remain
> unupdated.  And it works!  Like magic!  I think all synaptic does is
> simplifying and remembering all the correct syntax of dpkg commands and
> executing them for you.

Well, I'd be interested to see the term.log from a session where
someone downgrades "a couple hundred packages without much problem"
as reported above. According to your experience, their statement of
"depends on the user" is untrue. Synaptic just sorts it all out for
you, though that's surprising in view of your last sentence.

I have little experience of downgrading, but have read plenty of
postings here about how difficult it can be. I would want a solid
backup system in place at the time, particularly if I were paying
bills with the work. In the past I always depended on having duplicate
systems and some bash scripts to get from the debian-installer to a
working system in short order.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Michael Lange]

Hi,

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:35:00 +
GiaThnYgeia  wrote:

(...)
> One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a way
> to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know where
> such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.

/var/log/apt/history.log might be what you are loking for.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

The face of war has never changed.  Surely it is more logical to heal
than to kill.
-- Surak of Vulcan, "The Savage Curtain", stardate 5906.5

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

Jimmy Johnson:
> On 02/10/2017 05:49 PM, David Wright wrote:
>> On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to
>>> Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
>>> but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
>>> packages without much problem, depends on the user.
>>
>> Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
>> from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
>> look very pretty in red):
>>   Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
>>   downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
>>   breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
>>   ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
>>   even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.
>> Cheers,
>> David.
> 
> Hi David, Synaptic will not let you install a broken package.  If you
> are running sid/testing sometimes a package version will become obsolete
> and need a change or a video driver version is not working and needs a
> change, etc. If you're running in a GUI Synaptic is handy to have
> installed.  And yes, it's using "dpkg".

One thing I have not been able to find in synaptic or elsewhere is a way
to keep track of what has been installed and when.  If you know where
such a log habitates or can be created let me/us know.

I understand it all relates to what depends on what and who is breaking
whom.  If it is a package that depends on other "stuff" but nothing
depends on it you can install something from debian1 in its beta version
and all else is fine.  But if you go one version back of one little
thing that 100 things depend on, you may get 90 things not working.
This is my simplistic understanding. Out of my panic experimentation I
have run into situations that it becomes a great puzzle of why the
system is still working.  Like creating a mess and breaking the system
then reinstalling an earlier version of the distribution ON TOP of the
mesh, same root and user names and passwords,
then try to locate all the things that had been installed and upgraded
that are not on the dpkg list and if not recovered they will remain
unupdated.  And it works!  Like magic!  I think all synaptic does is
simplifying and remembering all the correct syntax of dpkg commands and
executing them for you.


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 02/10/2017 05:49 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:

On 02/09/2017 04:58 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:



In most cases documents simplify that stretch is testing, so I thought
there was no difference, then something I read recently made me think
once stretch becomes stable I would be bumped up a notch. Elsewhere I
read that once you are up the ladder the only way to backtrack is to
reinstall.


Hello,
Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to
Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
packages without much problem, depends on the user.


Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
look very pretty in red):

 --force-things, --no-force-things, --refuse-things

  [...]

  Warning: These options are mostly intended to be used by experts
  only. Using them without fully understanding their effects  may
  break your whole system.

  [...]

  downgrade(*):  Install a package, even if newer version of it is
  already installed.

  Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
  downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
  breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
  ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
  even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.

Cheers,
David.



Hi David, Synaptic will not let you install a broken package.  If you 
are running sid/testing sometimes a package version will become obsolete 
and need a change or a video driver version is not working and needs a 
change, etc. If you're running in a GUI Synaptic is handy to have 
installed.  And yes, it's using "dpkg".

--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.4 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed (new pkgs under freeze)

[GiaThnYgeia]

Brian:
> On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 10:43:00 +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
> [We are are talking about some using the testing distribution].
> 
>> I did not upgrade this time, just left it where it is as "if it ain't
>> broke don't fix it" wondering why this is.  I think the uneasiness comes
>> from the feeling of not being able to revert things once they have been
>> broken.
> 
> You have volunteered to test testing; please take it seriously. You will
> have to upgrade sometime, if only to get to stable when it is released,

Yes, you are right and I am conscious of this obligation.  Only, with
the previous discussion on the same thread, I thought I may have done
something wrong and this was the consequence.  I did upgrade and with no
noticeable effects - yet!  I have noticed some partial slow down in the
booting routine lately, I don't know whether it is normal or not.
it seemed as it had been improved between jessie and stretch then seemed
slightly longer lately.  Not very significant of an issue.  I check and
carry upgrades twice daily lately.  I'm getting ready a second box where
I can have an equivalent built and test things 1-2 days ahead my main
box.  Down-time is expensive if work that pays the bills comes from a
single machine.

> Hello,
> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to >
Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
> but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
> packages without much problem, depends on the user.

This is good to know if one can get back to synaptic after things fall
apart.  I have tried this once with a non debian package and worked once
but I had read somewhere that I couldn't or I shouldn't and took it as a
rule.  You are saying that one can go from a higher edition of debian
back to a lower edition, or are we talking about package versions within
the same edition?  Like if you dislike libreoffice5 and want to go back
to 4** I don't see how can this be done by synaptic, unless you remove 5
and download or apt-get a specific package from Libre.

> --
> Jimmy Johnson


Katrin

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[David Wright]

On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 16:00:13 (-0800), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 02/09/2017 04:58 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> >In most cases documents simplify that stretch is testing, so I thought
> >there was no difference, then something I read recently made me think
> >once stretch becomes stable I would be bumped up a notch. Elsewhere I
> >read that once you are up the ladder the only way to backtrack is to
> >reinstall.
> 
> Hello,
> Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to
> Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time
> but, yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred
> packages without much problem, depends on the user.

Oh, that's heartening! Does Synaptic use a different method
from dpkg? The man page for the latter says (and the warnings
look very pretty in red):

 --force-things, --no-force-things, --refuse-things

  [...]

  Warning: These options are mostly intended to be used by experts
  only. Using them without fully understanding their effects  may
  break your whole system.

  [...]

  downgrade(*):  Install a package, even if newer version of it is
  already installed.

  Warning: At present dpkg does not do any dependency checking  on
  downgrades  and  therefore  will  not  warn you if the downgrade
  breaks the dependency of some other package. This can have seri‐
  ous  side  effects,  downgrading essential system components can
  even make your whole system unusable. Use with care.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 02/09/2017 04:58 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:

Lisi Reisz:

Right, so if you wish to remain on Stretch, which I think you do, replace the
word testing with the name stretch in all 4 of those lines.  Then update -
however you do that in Synaptic.


Ok thank you, I think it worked.  I reloaded and no packages needed any
updating.  A quick list of the installed packages shows all the same
edition between installed and available.  I think synaptic is really
nice once you get the hang of it.


And I should do it relatively soon, or at the moment Stretch becomes Stable
you will find yourself effectively on Sid!!!



In most cases documents simplify that stretch is testing, so I thought
there was no difference, then something I read recently made me think
once stretch becomes stable I would be bumped up a notch. Elsewhere I
read that once you are up the ladder the only way to backtrack is to
reinstall.


Hello,
Take a look at Synaptic Menu you can select a package and then go to 
Package > Force Version, you can only force one package at a time but, 
yes you can downgrade. I can down grade a couple hundred packages 
without much problem, depends on the user.

--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.4 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed (new pkgs under freeze)

[Brian]

On Fri 10 Feb 2017 at 10:43:00 +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:

[We are are talking about some using the testing distribution].

> I did not upgrade this time, just left it where it is as "if it ain't
> broke don't fix it" wondering why this is.  I think the uneasiness comes
> from the feeling of not being able to revert things once they have been
> broken.

You have volunteered to test testing; please take it seriously. You will
have to upgrade sometime, if only to get to stable when it is released,

[Snip]

> Breath deeply, exhale :)
> HTH??

The first hit on Google. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed (new pkgs under freeze)

[GiaThnYgeia]

Greg Wooledge:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:43:00AM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> If I understand the freeze process well (I think I
>> don't) why would updated packages appear today on the list?
> 
> The freeze means that only bug fixes go in.  No new upstream versions,
> unless it's a very special case.

Thank you, that makes perfect analog sense, to my binary thinking that
would have been a problem.

Katrin

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed (new pkgs under freeze)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:43:00AM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> If I understand the freeze process well (I think I
> don't) why would updated packages appear today on the list?

The freeze means that only bug fixes go in.  No new upstream versions,
unless it's a very special case.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed (new pkgs under freeze)

[GiaThnYgeia]

Lisi Reisz:
>> In most cases documents simplify that stretch is testing,

Ok, got it, I think your post helps the archive.

I don't think I should open a new post/thread for one more
clarification.  If I understand the freeze process well (I think I
don't) why would updated packages appear today on the list?  Some about
linux-headers/image and all (important stuff for all stretch-ers). When
I replaced testing with stretch yesterday it found no needed updates.
Or are these final small modifications before the release that happen
while the freeze process is in effect?  Does the freeze strictly mean no
package transferring from sid to testing but specific tuning can be done
within the edition?  Meaning this update did not come from sid?

I did not upgrade this time, just left it where it is as "if it ain't
broke don't fix it" wondering why this is.  I think the uneasiness comes
from the feeling of not being able to revert things once they have been
broken.

> Ouch! No they don't.  Any documents that you have found that say exactly 
> that should be expunged from your mind, and they are certainly not 
> simplifying anything.  They are horribly confusing the issue.  Try to stick 
> to Debian documents (which any document saying exactly that certainly was 
> not).  As of 10/02/17 (British format - i.e. 10th February 2017) stretch is 
> testing.  But not for much longer.
> 
> Squeeze has been Testing, Stable, Old Stable, LTS and has now fallen off the 
> cliff.  (I.e. is archive only and unsupported.) 
> 
> Wheezy has been Testing - Stable - now Old Stable - then it will be LTS - 
> then 
> off the cliff.
> 
> Jessie has been Testing, is Stable, will soon be Old Stable.
> 
> Stretch is Testing, will soon be Stable.
> 
> What is now Sid will soon be Buster, but there will still be Sid, so that, 
> very briefly, Sid and Buster will be the same as each other.
> 
> You need to reread this.  Or read it if you haven't yet done so.
> https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20170209172439.GA9225@alum
> 
> HTH, finally,
> Lisi

Breath deeply, exhale :)
HTH??
I was referring to things I have occasionally seen on forums and debian
based distros which confuse the issue.  It is clear now, thanks to you.
I found a graph yesterday (I think it was in a link of the post you
suggest) showing the list of names in one column and old-stable, stable,
testing, unstable on the next explaining that when a release comes out
everything on the first column drops down a notch.
I think that sid being always unstable is what confuses the most of us
newbies.  It is a vicious thing that sid.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

Lisi Reisz:
> Right, so if you wish to remain on Stretch, which I think you do, replace the 
> word testing with the name stretch in all 4 of those lines.  Then update - 
> however you do that in Synaptic.  

Ok thank you, I think it worked.  I reloaded and no packages needed any
updating.  A quick list of the installed packages shows all the same
edition between installed and available.  I think synaptic is really
nice once you get the hang of it.

> And I should do it relatively soon, or at the moment Stretch becomes Stable 
> you will find yourself effectively on Sid!!!

That is precisely what I was afraid of and I asked to make sure I got it
right.  So if in the future I want to adventure to the next release
instead of testing I just replace stretch with buster.

> Then you can change to bullseye when it suits you.  I personally never use 
> the 
> names stable, testing, unstable.  I prefer codenames.  I want more control!!

In most cases documents simplify that stretch is testing, so I thought
there was no difference, then something I read recently made me think
once stretch becomes stable I would be bumped up a notch. Elsewhere I
read that once you are up the ladder the only way to backtrack is to
reinstall.

> Se parakalw.  I hope this is now OK.
> 
> Lisi
>> Katrin

Thank you all

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Joel Rees]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 2:51 AM, GiaThnYgeia
 wrote:
> [...]
> The Debian 7 pc stayed this way, I used it as an example that if I had
> switched it to testing on wheezy would I be in stretch now?  And I
> assume the answer would be yes unless I again misunderstand how it works.

Maybe, if you had done that before Jessie was stable and had managed
to ride the changes okay.

Don't do it now or you'll be in a serious mess of the sort where the
best answer is to back up your data and maybe your passwords and
re-install from scratch.

It might be good to have Synaptic issue a warning to that effect when
certain (repository) targets are changed, but that would be something
to take up on a developers' list, maybe.

-- 
Joel Rees

I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Joel Rees]

Hi, Greg,

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 12:29:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> It may seem silly to most of you but not very clear.  If in the synaptic
>> repository list one has used testing in Jessie
>
> What?!
>
>> by now the system has
>> converted fully (99.99%) to Debian 9 Stretch.  Right?
>
> If you want to run stretch, then you should put "stretch" in your
> sources.list.  Currently this is the same as testing, but when stretch
> is released, you will be running Debian 9, and you will stay there until
> you choose something else.
>
> If you want to run PERPETUAL testing, never stabilizing, always
> half-broken, then you should put "testing" in your sources.list.
>
> If you put EITHER of these things in your sources.list, EVER, then you are
> NOT running jessie.  It is completely nonsensical to write a phrase like
> "testing in jessie".  You are running testing, or you are running jessie,
> or you are running neither.
>

Please don't get so excited on-list. Some of the members of the list
have to go handle flammable liquids in the early morning cold between
reading messages, and you might cause an hour's worth of fuel oil to
be spilled all over someone's veranda.

:-(

Sure, it's that someone's fault for thinking about the list and
watching the fuel instead of the gauge for a second or two at the
wrong moment, but  :/)

-- 
Joel Rees

I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 09 February 2017 20:46:14 Brian wrote:
> Sid is unstable and unstable is Sid. It doesn't matter which one
> is chosen to be in sources.list. 

Agreed.  But I like patterns. ;-)

> Mind you, stable is Jessie and Jessie 
> is stable. It's only testing/whatever you have to be careful about.

Here I disagree.  Just as testing will gallop to unite with Sid at the moment 
that Stretch becomes Stable, at that moment Jessie will become Old Stable and 
Stretch will become Stable.  It is the same difference.  Instead of a nice 
stable Jessie, suddenly the unwary punter has a brand new version upgrade, 
done helter-skelter without any reference to the release notes: possibly 
rather disastrously, as when udev and the kernel HAD to be upgraded first - 
was that Squeeze or Lenny?

Lisi

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Brian]

On Thu 09 Feb 2017 at 15:48:57 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 08:46:14PM +, Brian wrote:
> > Mind you, stable is Jessie and Jessie
> > is stable. It's only testing/whatever you have to be careful about.
> 
> "jessie" and "stable" are synonymous for the moment, but that will not
> continue indefinitely into the future.  When stretch releases, they
> will stop being synonyms.  Just like "stretch" and "testing" will stop
> being synonyms.

Good point. I should stop living in the present. ;)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 08:46:14PM +, Brian wrote:
> Mind you, stable is Jessie and Jessie
> is stable. It's only testing/whatever you have to be careful about.

"jessie" and "stable" are synonymous for the moment, but that will not
continue indefinitely into the future.  When stretch releases, they
will stop being synonyms.  Just like "stretch" and "testing" will stop
being synonyms.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Brian]

On Thu 09 Feb 2017 at 18:58:34 +, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 09 February 2017 17:51:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> > Lisi Reisz:
> > > So let's start at the beginning.
> >
> > OK
> >
> > > What exactly does your sources.list currently say? 
> > > (/etc/apt/sources.list) Please copy and paste it.
> >
> > I deleted the headers # ...
> >
> > deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main
> > deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main
> >
> > deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
> > deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
> 
> Right, so if you wish to remain on Stretch, which I think you do, replace the 
> word testing with the name stretch in all 4 of those lines.  Then update - 
> however you do that in Synaptic.  Then carry on as normal.  I would do:
> # aptitude update
> # aptitude full-upgrade
> if I were changing testing to Stretch right now.

Excellent advice. Sticking with "stretch" gets you all the updates to
testing until stable is released (a couple of months or so from now).
Then you stay on stable/stretch and get only security updates and a few
other important changes (which, hopefully, have been carefully vetted).

> And I should do it relatively soon, or at the moment Stretch becomes Stable 
> you will find yourself effectively on Sid!!!
> 
> Then you can change to bullseye when it suits you.  I personally never use 
> the 
> names stable, testing, unstable.  I prefer codenames.  I want more control!!

A very, very small point, which does not detract from the point you are
making. Sid is unstable and unstable is Sid. It doesn't matter which one
is chosen to be in sources.list. Mind you, stable is Jessie and Jessie
is stable. It's only testing/whatever you have to be careful about.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 09 February 2017 17:51:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> Lisi Reisz:
> > So let's start at the beginning.
>
> OK
>
> > What exactly does your sources.list currently say? 
> > (/etc/apt/sources.list) Please copy and paste it.
>
> I deleted the headers # ...
>
> deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main
> deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main
>
> deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
> deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main

Right, so if you wish to remain on Stretch, which I think you do, replace the 
word testing with the name stretch in all 4 of those lines.  Then update - 
however you do that in Synaptic.  Then carry on as normal.  I would do:
# aptitude update
# aptitude full-upgrade
if I were changing testing to Stretch right now.

And I should do it relatively soon, or at the moment Stretch becomes Stable 
you will find yourself effectively on Sid!!!

Then you can change to bullseye when it suits you.  I personally never use the 
names stable, testing, unstable.  I prefer codenames.  I want more control!!

> > You wish, I think, to go to/remain on Stretch?  But you refer to being on
> > Debian 7 which is Wheezy?  Are you talking about two different computers?
>
> Yes I used the 7 (wheezy) as an example later on, this one started life
> at 8.3 LXDE Amd64  The only mistake I think I made when I wrote the
> question, which may have confused some, was that I replaced main with
> testing instead of saying jessie to testing.

No, it was much more confusing than that!!

> > Please, some clarity if you want help.
>
> A while back I read somewhere to go from stable to testing I replace
> jessie with testing in the repos lines and I did and it worked.
>
> The Debian 7 pc stayed this way, I used it as an example that if I had
> switched it to testing on wheezy would I be in stretch now?  And I
> assume the answer would be yes unless I again misunderstand how it works.

Yes - but only if you had done it stage by stage.  If you do it now you will 
have a mess on your hands!!  (Wheezy to Stretch bypassing Jessie.)  I think 
however that you have now basically understood.

> Thanks,

Se parakalw.  I hope this is now OK.

Lisi
> Katrin

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[David Wright]

On Thu 09 Feb 2017 at 17:51:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> A while back I read somewhere to go from stable to testing I replace
> jessie with testing in the repos lines and I did and it worked.
> 
> The Debian 7 pc stayed this way, I used it as an example that if I had
> switched it to testing on wheezy would I be in stretch now?  And I
> assume the answer would be yes unless I again misunderstand how it works.

That would be a big mistake were you to do that now, but it's
concealed by your mixing these different categories again. Looked at
this way:

wheezy - jessie - stretch

or this way:

oldstable - stable - testing

you can now see that you be trying to dist-upgrade by two steps. If
you do that, you're on your own: the Release Notes won't help you a
lot if you get into trouble.

Your jessie to testing change is one step, but be aware of the fact
that you're also changing your strategy, as explained previously,
from a static distribution to a moving one.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Dan Ritter]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 04:09:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
> PS  I am on the "users" list right, not the "sysadmins" list?

People will tell you that the basic UNIX philosophy is that
tools should be small and usable as filters in a pipe chain;
there's something to that. But it isn't really basic.


Here is the actual UNIX philosophy: at any moment, a user might
decide that they are interested in being a software developer or
a sysadmin, and everything should support that.

-dsr-

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

Lisi Reisz:
> So let's start at the beginning.

OK

> What exactly does your sources.list currently say?  (/etc/apt/sources.list)
> Please copy and paste it.

I deleted the headers # ...

deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main

deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main


> You wish, I think, to go to/remain on Stretch?  But you refer to being on 
> Debian 7 which is Wheezy?  Are you talking about two different computers?

Yes I used the 7 (wheezy) as an example later on, this one started life
at 8.3 LXDE Amd64  The only mistake I think I made when I wrote the
question, which may have confused some, was that I replaced main with
testing instead of saying jessie to testing.

> Please, some clarity if you want help.

A while back I read somewhere to go from stable to testing I replace
jessie with testing in the repos lines and I did and it worked.

The Debian 7 pc stayed this way, I used it as an example that if I had
switched it to testing on wheezy would I be in stretch now?  And I
assume the answer would be yes unless I again misunderstand how it works.

> Lisi

Thanks,
Katrin

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[David Wright]

On Thu 09 Feb 2017 at 16:09:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> I hope you do see now that I would have to change, if not, I still did
> not understand what you are saying.  If testing is already in there (and
> has been for a while) and I update weekly once stretch is released I
> will be in nowhere-land in the neverlands (debian 10?).  I panicked when
> I thought of it and I wanted to double check before I mess something up.
>  I mistakenly thought that the addresses of the repositories would be
> different for stretch than for (jessie --> testing).  I see now that
> they are not.

The big decision you, and everyone, has to make is whether to use
codenames in your sources.list (what you're editing) or symlink names.
If you use codenames (wheezy, jessie, stretch, buster...) you choose
the moment when you dist-upgrade from one to the next.
OTOH if you use symlink names (oldstable, stable, testing) you move
when the powers-that-be make a change, ie release a new distribution.

sid/unstable is different, it evolves smoothly but is punctuated by
calamities (pace those who use it).

People run servers on codenames because they have to prepare for and
test changes in their own time¹. If you run on symlink names, you have
to accept that one day (Release Day) you will be surprised when your
routine update turns into update with no warning,
because all the symlinks will have moved one place along.

For a picture of what's going on, take a look at

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/06/msg00320.html

which still has the correct symlinks until the next Release Day,
fairly soon.

> PS  I am on the "users" list right, not the "sysadmins" list?

Most of the conversations on this list are about system administration
in some respects. Thus, for example, no one is interested whether you
use your computer to watch youtube videos, but they would be concerned
if you couldn't hear any sound while doing so.

(But you're not on the developers/maintainers' list. Some of them
do look in.)

¹there are also issues with how quickly security fixes are applied.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 09 February 2017 16:28:39 Daniel Bareiro wrote:
> Hi, Katrin.
>
> On 09/02/17 13:09, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> >> Here is a jessie source:
> >> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib
> >> Here is a stretch source:
> >> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free
> >
> > But I have http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ testing main
> >
> > and don't change it what will happen?
>
> If you do not wish to change that line, you will remain being always in
> the "testing" branch.
>
> If you change "testing" to "stretch", for the moment you will be in the
> "testing" branch and then, when "stretch" becomes stable, you will stay
> in the stable branch.
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Daniel

Katrin,

Greg could indeed have been more polite.  I'm afraid that happens on the users 
list sometimes.  I believe the phrase is "If you can't stand the heat, get 
out of the kitchen".

But to do him justice, your original email is not far short of totally 
incomprehensible.  I simply did not understand it.  Having read the thread so 
far, I think I vaguely get the picture.  I too dislike Synaptic, but your 
question does not seem to apply to Synaptic.  Ir appears to refer to Debian 
version, whichever package manager you happen to have chosen.

So let's start at the beginning.

What exactly does your sources.list currently say?  (/etc/apt/sources.list)

Please copy and paste it.

You wish, I think, to go to/remain on Stretch?  But you refer to being on 
Debian 7 which is Wheezy?  Are you talking about two different computers?

Please, some clarity if you want help.

Lisi

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Daniel Bareiro]

Hi, Katrin.

On 09/02/17 13:09, GiaThnYgeia wrote:

>> Here is a jessie source:
>> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib
>> Here is a stretch source:
>> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free

> But I have http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ testing main
> 
> and don't change it what will happen?

If you do not wish to change that line, you will remain being always in
the "testing" branch.

If you change "testing" to "stretch", for the moment you will be in the
"testing" branch and then, when "stretch" becomes stable, you will stay
in the stable branch.


Kind regards,
Daniel



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[GiaThnYgeia]

Please cool off, I don't see the need for a flame war.

Greg Wooledge:
> You forgot to reply to the list.

Maybe I was replying to you

> You forgot to stop top-quoting.  This is a real mailing list, not your
> workplace where you have to do everything upside-down.

That would be correct if I had replied to the list

> Here is a jessie source:
> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib
> Here is a stretch source:
> deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free

But I have http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ testing main

and don't change it what will happen?

>> If on the original installation of Jessie you switch from
>> main to testing you are running stretch, right?

Like I said

> You DO NOT touch the word "main".  You change the word "jessie".

But I am saying I already have (jessie to testing not main, my fault), I
had switched jessie to testing (because I read somewhere that is how to
do it) not inquiring any further on what this means.

>> I am just trying to verify I will be doing the
>> right thing and not mess up and end up in sid and have no way back.
> 
> Then don't use "sid" or "unstable".
> Perpetual is an English word.  It means "never-ending" or "eternal".
> 
> If you use "testing" instead of "stretch", then you are perpetually
> stuck in testing, never to stabilize, always half-broken.

My "testing" has been running fine, better than stable for some odd
reason.  Maybe all that upgrading and replacing has fixed some mess a
temporary trial of cinnamon had created.  I guess installing desktops,
using them, then discarding the installation can create problems.

> I don't speak GUI.

I hope you don't speak the same English out on the street, because it is
not like a list, it is very mean, that street thing.  You must be polite
and respectful to survive in the real world.  Why type commands when
clicking menus can get you by?  I am not a developer, I am just a user,
in a user list, using debian GUIs, not some non-free admin software.

> because that's usually how people do things: edit file,
> run commands.

I will stick to guidom, thank you!

> I don't know or care what happens if you alter the file from within
> synaptic.  I didn't even know that was POSSIBLE.

Yes, on the top menu on the column Settings --> Repositories it has 4
lines/fields where a source can be added or modified. (bin or src)
(.debian.org) (jessie) (main contrib non-free)
This is where I had taken jessie out and added testing. Swell ... !
My mistake it seems is that I thought the addresses for the repositories
were specific to jessie not across all the editions.  That was my
interest for clarification.  Now I understand it a little bit better.
If my original installation was wheezy and I had replaced the word with
testing I would be in stretch by now, but not for long.  Right?

> I can't imagine why someone would attempt to do system administration
> with a GUI.  Even if you somehow manage to jump through the hoops
> required to get a GUI process running as root to communicate with your X
> server in a session run by yourself, you're still doing sysadmin work
> while in X, which is not likely to end well.

I didn't know this.  I have spent countless hours reading manuals on how
to run my system but never did I realize that this was true.  I always
thought of myself as a user, not a sysadmin.  But I see what you are saying.

I specifically asked for suggestions on what to do to edit my repository
list on synaptic, I think, why are you responding then?

> Don't the release notes strongly advise that you do release upgrades
> OUTSIDE of X?  I thought they did.  It's been a while since I read them.

No, I have not seen this before.  I run Debian 7 32bit in a beaten old
P4 laptop for a while before I attempted this and that laptop is still
on 7 and is running fine.  It was always updated and the repositories
were never changed.  That was my fix for my friend's WinXP old laptop
that had a bad disk.  He could type his resume and apply for jobs, get
into chromium, play with facebook, and watch youtube.  I am now
sis-the-admin!  I see it every three months and do an update on it.  No
reason to break a good thing,

> I just can't see why it matters.  If you don't intend to perform the
> upgrade, don't change the file.

I hope you do see now that I would have to change, if not, I still did
not understand what you are saying.  If testing is already in there (and
has been for a while) and I update weekly once stretch is released I
will be in nowhere-land in the neverlands (debian 10?).  I panicked when
I thought of it and I wanted to double check before I mess something up.
 I mistakenly thought that the addresses of the repositories would be
different for stretch than for (jessie --> testing).  I see now that
they are not.

Katrin

PS  I am on the "users" list right, not the "sysadmins" list?

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Greg Wooledge]

You forgot to reply to the list.

You forgot to stop top-quoting.  This is a real mailing list, not your
workplace where you have to do everything upside-down.

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:20:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> So the location of the ***debian.org/ does not ever change, it remains
> the same.

Here is a jessie source:

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib

Here is a stretch source:

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free

> If on the original installation of Jessie you switch from
> main to testing you are running stretch, right?

You DO NOT touch the word "main".  You change the word "jessie".

If you change from "jessie" to "stretch" and then run apt-get update
and then run apt-get dist-upgrade, then you are running stretch.

> If you substitute
> testing with the word stretch you would be remaining on stretch stable
> once it is released.

Yes.

> I am just trying to verify I will be doing the
> right thing and not mess up and end up in sid and have no way back.

Then don't use "sid" or "unstable".

> That is why I said be specific and you are jumping on me (What? EVER
> EITHER, PERPETUAL...) What is perpetual anyway?  Is that a name of
> another system?

Perpetual is an English word.  It means "never-ending" or "eternal".

If you use "testing" instead of "stretch", then you are perpetually
stuck in testing, never to stabilize, always half-broken.

> You can put anything you like in the repository list but unless you
> reload the database and update what can be updated/replaced nothing will
> ever change, correct?

I don't speak GUI.

If you edit the /etc/apt/sources.list file, nothing changes until the
next time you run one of the apt commands.  That doesn't mean you should
go around altering files just for grins.  You should act as though
your changes to sources.list are going to take effect moments after
you make them, because that's usually how people do things: edit file,
run commands.

I can't even guess what happens if you edit the file while you are already
running synaptic, which is one of the apt commands.

I don't know or care what happens if you alter the file from within
synaptic.  I didn't even know that was POSSIBLE.

I can't imagine why someone would attempt to do system administration
with a GUI.  Even if you somehow manage to jump through the hoops
required to get a GUI process running as root to communicate with your X
server in a session run by yourself, you're still doing sysadmin work
while in X, which is not likely to end well.

Don't the release notes strongly advise that you do release upgrades
OUTSIDE of X?  I thought they did.  It's been a while since I read them.

> At least that is how I understand it works, if
> not please DO correct me.
> 
> Katrin

I just can't see why it matters.  If you don't intend to perform the
upgrade, don't change the file.

Re: Stretch stable and jessie testing - repositories listed

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 12:29:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> It may seem silly to most of you but not very clear.  If in the synaptic
> repository list one has used testing in Jessie

What?!

> by now the system has
> converted fully (99.99%) to Debian 9 Stretch.  Right?

If you want to run stretch, then you should put "stretch" in your
sources.list.  Currently this is the same as testing, but when stretch
is released, you will be running Debian 9, and you will stay there until
you choose something else.

If you want to run PERPETUAL testing, never stabilizing, always
half-broken, then you should put "testing" in your sources.list.

If you put EITHER of these things in your sources.list, EVER, then you are
NOT running jessie.  It is completely nonsensical to write a phrase like
"testing in jessie".  You are running testing, or you are running jessie,
or you are running neither.