Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
the resistance is still strong ... Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Devuan-Conference-2019 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 2:15 PM Andrew McGlashan < andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi, > > On 13/2/19 3:14 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 09:24:39AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan > >> wrote: > > > > Did I miss 4 years of posts or did you (accidentally?) reply to a > > 4 year old message? > > No, there was a new message in relation to a recent video at Linux > Conf 2019. and the discussion sparked up again in relation to that. > > Cheers > A. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXGMXIQAKCRCoFmvLt+/i > +w3nAP0XVSJU88QWAiNbgFNmfSLlJDmW5+Ov4q9RGuv66ZTgBwEA2iatxjSLsOev > eac0GfhP5ro8djVJ6ixxBrPTwbAREec= > =Lh8d > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > >
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 05:57:44AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi, > > On 13/2/19 3:14 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 09:24:39AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan > >> wrote: > > > > Did I miss 4 years of posts or did you (accidentally?) reply to a > > 4 year old message? > > No, there was a new message in relation to a recent video at Linux > Conf 2019. and the discussion sparked up again in relation to that. Zombies don't die, you know ;-) (and lest this gets mis-interpreted, I just mean the bad feelings on /all/ "camps") Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 13/2/19 3:14 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 09:24:39AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan >> wrote: > > Did I miss 4 years of posts or did you (accidentally?) reply to a > 4 year old message? No, there was a new message in relation to a recent video at Linux Conf 2019. and the discussion sparked up again in relation to that. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXGMXIQAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +w3nAP0XVSJU88QWAiNbgFNmfSLlJDmW5+Ov4q9RGuv66ZTgBwEA2iatxjSLsOev eac0GfhP5ro8djVJ6ixxBrPTwbAREec= =Lh8d -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 09:24:39AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote: Did I miss 4 years of posts or did you (accidentally?) reply to a 4 year old message? -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 11/2/19 4:40 am, Reco wrote: > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 03:55:04AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > Which, in turn, has xml, central database, socket activation and > very rudimentary dependency resolution. I don't remember off-hand > which one came first, launchd or SMF. Yes, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter where it's origins are from, nor it's inspirations. It is what it is regardless of those. >> If all goes to Pot, then choice will be lessened as projects make >> it too difficult to maintain versions of their code sans >> systemd. > > That's up to his IBM overlords to decide. As usual for the typical > corporate development. So far they said nothing. Well, I didn't mean the direct systemd related projects, but ones that rely upon having systemd present to provide a "feature or service" that is otherwise missing sans systemd and not coded to work around that issue ... thus requiring a bad dependency that will lead either to a project enforcing use of systemd when it really should be optional. The "Unix is dead" comment was interesting. >>> >>> AIX and Solaris (well, AIX mostly) are begging to differ. Free >>> software Unix (if such thing ever existed) - that's dead for >>> sure. >> >> There is at least the BSD variants, are they really dead too? > > I specifically mention "Unix". FreeBSD, which is the parent of all > modern BSDs, is free from AT code since '94, therefore is not a > Unix. BSDs may be twitching, but they ain't Unix. That's too literal, I think more along the lines of *nix -- the more options, the better, so long as options don't have too many things that are blockers for their competing OS versions. That is, not to heavily rely upon a particular kernel (of any OS). Both btrfs and systemd are very much reliant upon specific LINUX ONLY kernels and even worse, the version of the kernel itself. There are enough issues with variants of ext4 having issues with a live USB environment not being "new" enough to pick up on all the features of the ext4 fs when trying to do emergency rescue -- amplify that with systemd in a similar situation. Has it really has become Linux or nothing? >>> >>> No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has >>> been. Well, SCO, IBM, RH before IBM, Oracle they all have their issues. >> We also have Luminos varieties... SmartOS and others. > > They are as stillborn as their parent, OpenSolaris. Also, see > Netapp vs Nexenta case. That's what happens to OpenSolaris > offsprings once they leave their crib. Maybe so, but I don't know current status of these; they were always (to date when last looked at), not ready for prime time or used by too few to be relevant enough. We could relate this to VHS vs Beta, we know that technically Beta was far better, but VHS won the market with the same types of problems with HD video content types (HD-DVD vs Bluray for instance). It is a pity that Oracle has their licensing problems in relation to ZFS >>> >>> Please blame Sun Microsystems for *that*. Oracle's merely >>> keeping the status-quo. >> >> Yes, but Oracle could fix that if they wanted to. > > Why would they? For Oracle any Operating System is a big launcher > of their database and assorted Java shovelware. They don't want to; they want to own it all. Such greed in and of itself is a different matter. Heck, if you wanted to reverse engineer Oracle product to help fix it's security problems, their license doesn't allow you to do so without risk of litigation. So, they can keep their own bad code where it exists and be damned because those that could help make it better are disallowed from doing so. Sadly too, JAVA has stood in time to represent "Just Another Vulnerability Announcement" I was hoping (in vain) that Oracle would fix that problem. But I suspect Java will become abandon ware like Adobe Flash Player will be soon. Might I add that the sooner Java and Flash are finished, the better for everyone. >> The JAVA fiasco that Oracle hope to profit from royally from >> Google is another box of pox. > > So called 'JAVA fiasco' had its share of hype, but that's it. If > you're looking for real fiascoes (sp?), search for HP vs Oracle > case. Maybe, but the main point from my view is that Oracle isn't a player whom plays nicely with our community and we should avoid giving them further market share of anything and everything when we can reasonably do so with alternative software. and there are great alternative implementations now; >>> >>> You mean, ZFS-on-Linux? It's a fork of OpenSolaris' ZFS >>> implementation, not something that's written from scratch. >> >> Maybe so, but it isn't limited to Sun (or now Oracle systems). >> And it isn't limited to Linux as opposed to BSD variants or >> Luminos variants. > > And here lies the irony. FreeBSD, OpenIndiana, Illumos - they all > now consider ZFS-on-Linux as upstream.
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 03:55:04AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi, > > On 10/2/19 11:17 pm, Reco wrote: > >> Okay, I've watched it now. I am not convinced that his idea of > >> "create this or that yourself" is a fair retort. > > > > There are historical precedents. AIX's init inspired Solaris' SMF > > which in turn inspired systemd. > > Not SMF -> systemd ... according to the video. More inspired by > Apple's launchd Which, in turn, has xml, central database, socket activation and very rudimentary dependency resolution. I don't remember off-hand which one came first, launchd or SMF. > >> I still consider that systemd has caused considerable harm to > >> Debian as well as the general Linux community. > > > > Those who do not want systemd are free not to use it. And Debian is > > one of the few Linux distributions which provides such choice. > > If all goes to Pot, then choice will be lessened as projects make it > too difficult to maintain versions of their code sans systemd. That's up to his IBM overlords to decide. As usual for the typical corporate development. So far they said nothing. > >> The "Unix is dead" comment was interesting. > > > > AIX and Solaris (well, AIX mostly) are begging to differ. Free > > software Unix (if such thing ever existed) - that's dead for sure. > > There is at least the BSD variants, are they really dead too? I specifically mention "Unix". FreeBSD, which is the parent of all modern BSDs, is free from AT code since '94, therefore is not a Unix. BSDs may be twitching, but they ain't Unix. > >> Has it really has become Linux or nothing? > > > > No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. > > We also have Luminos varieties... SmartOS and others. They are as stillborn as their parent, OpenSolaris. Also, see Netapp vs Nexenta case. That's what happens to OpenSolaris offsprings once they leave their crib. > >> It is a pity that Oracle has their licensing problems in relation > >> to ZFS > > > > Please blame Sun Microsystems for *that*. Oracle's merely keeping > > the status-quo. > > Yes, but Oracle could fix that if they wanted to. Why would they? For Oracle any Operating System is a big launcher of their database and assorted Java shovelware. > The JAVA fiasco that Oracle hope to profit from royally from Google is > another box of pox. So called 'JAVA fiasco' had its share of hype, but that's it. If you're looking for real fiascoes (sp?), search for HP vs Oracle case. > >> and there are great alternative implementations now; > > > > You mean, ZFS-on-Linux? It's a fork of OpenSolaris' ZFS > > implementation, not something that's written from scratch. > > Maybe so, but it isn't limited to Sun (or now Oracle systems). > And it isn't limited to Linux as opposed to BSD variants or Luminos > variants. And here lies the irony. FreeBSD, OpenIndiana, Illumos - they all now consider ZFS-on-Linux as upstream. And, as Solaris 11.4 shows us, Oracle too can consider borrowing a feature or two from ZFS-on-Linux. The main problem is - ZFS is not native for Linux. It was (as still - see Solaris porting layer kernel module - spl) written with Solaris kernel facilities at mind. Reco
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 10/2/19 11:17 pm, Reco wrote: >> Okay, I've watched it now. I am not convinced that his idea of >> "create this or that yourself" is a fair retort. > > There are historical precedents. AIX's init inspired Solaris' SMF > which in turn inspired systemd. Not SMF -> systemd ... according to the video. More inspired by Apple's launchd >> I still consider that systemd has caused considerable harm to >> Debian as well as the general Linux community. > > Those who do not want systemd are free not to use it. And Debian is > one of the few Linux distributions which provides such choice. If all goes to Pot, then choice will be lessened as projects make it too difficult to maintain versions of their code sans systemd. >> The "Unix is dead" comment was interesting. > > AIX and Solaris (well, AIX mostly) are begging to differ. Free > software Unix (if such thing ever existed) - that's dead for sure. There is at least the BSD variants, are they really dead too? >> Has it really has become Linux or nothing? > > No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. We also have Luminos varieties... SmartOS and others. >> It is a pity that Oracle has their licensing problems in relation >> to ZFS > > Please blame Sun Microsystems for *that*. Oracle's merely keeping > the status-quo. Yes, but Oracle could fix that if they wanted to. The JAVA fiasco that Oracle hope to profit from royally from Google is another box of pox. >> and there are great alternative implementations now; > > You mean, ZFS-on-Linux? It's a fork of OpenSolaris' ZFS > implementation, not something that's written from scratch. Maybe so, but it isn't limited to Sun (or now Oracle systems). And it isn't limited to Linux as opposed to BSD variants or Luminos variants. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXGBXYQAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +zUVAP9w/Lm3gEAqRkLnD7KQvwEt9mrs8bx96MCMTG4t9rfTSwD+KwFD5Ot5uEVT 0OZKhiGl1k3DRaCraglmSbWz6FZUEE0= =CI5s -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 01:48:35PM +, mick crane wrote: > On 2019-02-10 12:17, Reco wrote: > > >No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. > > wasn't it IBM gave Minix away and Torvalds used that as a base ? Oh, no. Minix is Andrew Tannenbaum's project, has nothing to do with IBM. And it did serve as inspiration for Linus, but not as a code source. Actually Linux went a quite different path (monolithic kernel) than Minix (more or less microkernel) -- Tannenbaum once scalded Linus and said that Linux would never be portable because of that :-) And SCO claimed that IBM had contributed code to Linux which was SCO's (intellectual) property. Or something like that (the claims changed quite a bit during this protracted history) [1] Cheers [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_vs_IBM -- tomás signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Hi. On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 01:48:35PM +, mick crane wrote: > On 2019-02-10 12:17, Reco wrote: > > > No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. > > wasn't it IBM gave Minix away and Torvalds used that as a base ? But it wasn't enough to make a Unix from Linux. That's what the Court has decided, first time at '92, last time at '14. Besides, it's wrong to call it a Unix™ unless Open Group does. And last time I've checked [1], there was no Linux at that list. Reco [1] https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sun, 2019-02-10 at 13:48 +, mick crane wrote: > On 2019-02-10 12:17, Reco wrote: > > > No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. > > wasn't it IBM gave Minix away and Torvalds used that as a base ? > According to Linus himself, it does not use Minix code. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.os.minix/dlNtH7RRrGA/SwRavCzVE7gJ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 2019-02-10 12:17, Reco wrote: No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. wasn't it IBM gave Minix away and Torvalds used that as a base ? -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Hi. On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 09:56:30PM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi, > > On 10/2/19 6:44 pm, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > > On 10/2/19 10:28 am, chris wrote: > >> so relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo > > > > I've seen references to that video and have not yet watched it. > > > > I also understand that people have differing views on what the > > presenter concludes or rather the real purpose of the talk. > > Okay, I've watched it now. I am not convinced that his idea of > "create this or that yourself" is a fair retort. There are historical precedents. AIX's init inspired Solaris' SMF which in turn inspired systemd. > I still consider that systemd has caused considerable harm to Debian > as well as the general Linux community. Those who do not want systemd are free not to use it. And Debian is one of the few Linux distributions which provides such choice. > The changes were not necessary, systemd is, even as a collection, > bloatware. Moreover, it's a bloatware with fundamental security problems. > The "Unix is dead" comment was interesting. AIX and Solaris (well, AIX mostly) are begging to differ. Free software Unix (if such thing ever existed) - that's dead for sure. > Has it really has become Linux or nothing? No. See SCO vs IBM case. Linux is not Unix, and never has been. > It is a pity that Oracle has their licensing problems in relation to > ZFS Please blame Sun Microsystems for *that*. Oracle's merely keeping the status-quo. > and there are great alternative implementations now; You mean, ZFS-on-Linux? It's a fork of OpenSolaris' ZFS implementation, not something that's written from scratch. Reco
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 10/2/19 6:44 pm, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > On 10/2/19 10:28 am, chris wrote: >> so relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo > > I've seen references to that video and have not yet watched it. > > I also understand that people have differing views on what the > presenter concludes or rather the real purpose of the talk. Okay, I've watched it now. I am not convinced that his idea of "create this or that yourself" is a fair retort. Entire working systems have been butchered, for better or worse. And now we have competing thoughts on what is best moving forward. I have not converted, not that I expected the video to be able to convince me. I still consider that systemd has caused considerable harm to Debian as well as the general Linux community. Not using systemd is fine; and I know that there are other excellent ways to monitor and restart services without systemd. The changes were not necessary, systemd is, even as a collection, bloatware. The "Unix is dead" comment was interesting. Has it really has become Linux or nothing? I don't think so, but the fragmentation of efforts is not positive. I won't use btrfs for a number of reasons, some of those reasons are shared with systemd. I do not think it should be Linux and only Linux and both system and btrfs (both failed projects in my opinion) are tied intrinsically to a single kernel (and related system), being Linux. Now there is Linux and there is Linux, just like there are oils and there are oils. Choice is fine, but sometimes change is made for entirely inappropriate reasons. It is a pity that Oracle has their licensing problems in relation to ZFS and there are great alternative implementations now; at least it isn't tied down to one version or /flavour/ of an OS, so ZFS remains positive to me. The split of Linux with systemd and sans systemd is not good for Linux future and I stand by my views prior to watching the video. So sad that it took such a major aberration to bring systemd in to more prominence than it ever deserved. But the damage is done and I believe the implications are far greater than many would ever accept having gone down the path of embracing systemd to date. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXGADWAAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +70bAQDbrNvji30OV97YRXeRqJL4GGLt+AJ7mWdkJWYNvZi74wD/Tddc7ar4J+Dv q1MyoaKtsNgvAwX6PpRG93xJd2qkL3Q= =GS/g -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 10/02/2019 08:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> >> >> On 22/06/2015 11:49 PM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: >>> Andrew McGlashan writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a "cancer" >>> And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute >>> toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just >>> that. >> It has all the hallmarks of cancer, growing beyond itself to the >> potential death of that which it has invaded. > No. Ansgar is right here (and I say that as someone who dislikes > systemd and is not really happy about it being the default in > Debian). > > Disparaging other people/projects just because you don't like them > is /not/ the way to go. Systemd is free software: thanks, systemd! > > If the likes of you invested half the energy you waste flinging > mud at the systemd project/people into keeping SysV (or any of > its alternatives) viable, world would be a better place. > > And yes, mud has come from the other side too, but at the moment > I've the clear impression that the trolls are winning in the > anti-systemd camp. I don't feel well there. > > Let's be glad MikeeeUSA went away and please, don't try to replace > him. > > Cheers > -- tomás I agree we need to concentrate on ensuring that which ever system we prefer, we make efforts to help make it better. Ultimately we want make Debian the best system out there too. Devuan is Debian using sysv, I would assume everything else is the pretty much the same ( applications and versions for example ). I think choice is a good thing, we should be thanful we have that choice. On a slightly related topic as the About Myself application appears to have issues, I have been working on a replacement. https://github.com/zleap/AboutMe However it has been pointed out to me on a different list that the fields used with the adduser command so the extra fields are not needed however I like the idea of a user profile tool anyway so am keeping my tool as is. Right now it will just use a text file to store the information. Once I have loading the data working, it should be possible to just fork the program to do what it is meant to do. Paul -- Paul Sutton http://www.zleap.net https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/ gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893 1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 01:47:20AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 22/06/2015 11:49 PM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: > > Andrew McGlashan writes: > >> If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. > >> > >> I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a "cancer" > > > > And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute > > toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just > > that. > > It has all the hallmarks of cancer, growing beyond itself to the > potential death of that which it has invaded. No. Ansgar is right here (and I say that as someone who dislikes systemd and is not really happy about it being the default in Debian). Disparaging other people/projects just because you don't like them is /not/ the way to go. Systemd is free software: thanks, systemd! If the likes of you invested half the energy you waste flinging mud at the systemd project/people into keeping SysV (or any of its alternatives) viable, world would be a better place. And yes, mud has come from the other side too, but at the moment I've the clear impression that the trolls are winning in the anti-systemd camp. I don't feel well there. Let's be glad MikeeeUSA went away and please, don't try to replace him. Cheers -- tomás signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 10/2/19 10:28 am, chris wrote: > so relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo I've seen references to that video and have not yet watched it. I also understand that people have differing views on what the presenter concludes or rather the real purpose of the talk. In the end, is he a supporter of systemd or does he feel that systemd was a mistake? Did he change his view from one position to the other? Or is it simply preaching to the converted and possibly denigrating those that don't agree. Essentially I would like to know if it is worth watching the said video and what I might expect -- perhaps even another point of view that /may/ influence my current stance on the matter. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iHUEAREIAB0WIQTJAoMHtC6YydLfjUOoFmvLt+/i+wUCXF/WYwAKCRCoFmvLt+/i +0lmAP47ikFQ5lwbWRrYjOjd+Y0yNj6URxWHPFMg+Hq/8pVWPgD/c5UJlx7UhXUR ia28QW4x6KzZ1OxeqNNggXEHvFdqmmc= =bkWf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
so relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:07 AM Ansgar Burchardt wrote: > Andrew McGlashan writes: > > If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. > > > > I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a "cancer" > > And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic > behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. > > Ansgar > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/871th397kc@deep-thought.43-1.org > >
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
2015-06-22 19:02 GMT+02:00 Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 06:27:16PM CEST, to...@tuxteam.de said: My take is: I am a fan of Debian. I don't want systemd on my computer. Systemd is the default, and their proponents are no idiots and I assume good intentions. I accept that their viewpoint is as valid as mine. So it is (in part) on me to keep Debian without systemd a viable option. There are many dependencies on systemd (e.g. Gnome) which aren't Debian's fault. No problem for me, since I don't particularly care for Gnome, but perhaps there are other needs. As I see it, there are quite smart people on both sides of the debate and it seems best to try to get along instead of slinging accusations at each other (both sides have been very effective at that, and sadly, I'm not innocent in this either. I regret that). My feeling is also that once you begin to ask for explanations (how or why) it is considered by some systemd fans as a frontal attack, which it is not. What is the use of this libsystemd0 you get even when systemd was never installed ? Where are migration tutorials, docs for people who did not develop systemd ? To those questions I never got answers or even worse (like when I was answered that I had to write the docs). I still have a setting working without systemd that I do not know hoxw to make with it. I still do not know what a mount unit is. I saw that systemd can start daemons when a certain disk is mounted, I still look how to do it, etc... If I where to write a doc now it would be : this setting was possible, systemd maks it impossible. Which is surely false, but given the info I get, may become a reality. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ You have lot of docs here. From what i see, it's all about change. People were really comfortable with sysvinit (because they use it for age) and now they have to learn new things, change their habit, and it's kind of hard. But I guess that nobody will speak about systemd anymore in a year. I'm a sysadmin working on Web stack (so very simple usage of Debian). I was first discouraged by systemd (i don't understand why you want changing something that is working well) but after some digging, and work on it, i'm very please with systemd. Journalctl is a great tool, service unit are great, and in some way easier to maintain than shell script. Come on guys, systemd is not the hell you claim it is. Just give it a good try, with fair mind, and i bet you will be convinced. Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622170259.ga2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:52:20AM +0200, claude juif wrote: [...] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Agreed. As I posted elsewhere, lack of documentation is not something which systemd can be accused of. You have lot of docs here. From what i see, it's all about change. I strongly disagree on that. Moreover, this meme has been bandied against systemd opponents and carries the message all your other arguments are moot, you just are resistant to change. This can feel rather insulting. I think this argument has contributed considerably to the bad climate we have now. Regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWJJB4ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kY5cACeMDDlQ0KIgzksOq7Ix9GY5kTk XQQAnA44sHtK/4uYhyTyvsvacS5suJ0M =6ULB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623091718.gb19...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
2015-06-23 11:17 GMT+02:00 to...@tuxteam.de: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:52:20AM +0200, claude juif wrote: [...] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Agreed. As I posted elsewhere, lack of documentation is not something which systemd can be accused of. You have lot of docs here. From what i see, it's all about change. I strongly disagree on that. Moreover, this meme has been bandied against systemd opponents and carries the message all your other arguments are moot, you just are resistant to change. This can feel rather insulting. What made me think it's all about change, it's because every come here and shout systemd is hell, it is not working, and debian devs are bad guys. Nobody gives error messages, logs or just describe a problem. If you switch from chrome to firefox, and something is not working as you expect, you will not come here claiming firefox is shit and why debian devs make it default browser ? You will ask : How can i do this in firefox ? No ? I never had a chance to help new systemd users because they will never explain their problem, just raging about systemd. I'm not systemd dev, but i will gladly help any people who want to give it a try. I think this argument has contributed considerably to the bad climate we have now. Regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWJJB4ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kY5cACeMDDlQ0KIgzksOq7Ix9GY5kTk XQQAnA44sHtK/4uYhyTyvsvacS5suJ0M =6ULB -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [...] Remember that every time you tell people to go use something else, you are saying that they are not valued members of the community. I do indeed not consider people with toxic behaviour as valued members of the community. Loving something is *not* an excuse for such behaviour. Toxic, schmoxic. You called out on that once, now I think you're overdoing it. IMHO. - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWJE0oACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbt2QCfS8yxYXpCR7KBHQprJ7zS67Tk mh0An1MsoeNo+k+ojU/fkwp9z+jgklwR =AVgf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623080530.ga17...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 11:27:07AM +0200, claude juif wrote: 2015-06-23 11:17 GMT+02:00 to...@tuxteam.de: On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:52:20AM +0200, claude juif wrote: [...] You have lot of docs here. From what i see, it's all about change. I strongly disagree on that. Moreover, this meme has been bandied against systemd opponents and carries the message all your other arguments are moot, you just are resistant to change. This can feel rather insulting. What made me think it's all about change, it's because every come here and shout systemd is hell, it is not working, and debian devs are bad guys. Nobody gives error messages, logs or just describe a problem. Agreed. And of course, it is *often* just about change. But not all. If you switch from chrome to firefox, and something is not working as you expect, you will not come here claiming firefox is shit and why debian devs make it default browser ? You will ask : How can i do this in firefox ? No ? Heh. Given human nature... :-) I never had a chance to help new systemd users because they will never explain their problem, just raging about systemd. Yes, this makes it difficult. But part of it can be explained by the radicality of the change. At the beginning many just lack the language to express their problems. I'm not systemd dev, but i will gladly help any people who want to give it a try. And those which come foaming at the mouth don't help, I know. Thanks - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWJLFsACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbaGgCeKmN8m0gGvfz8aLNqAFM6HGrv OJ8An09II8A+YueeBJ+bpsxxu70EYuaW =Cmcr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623095227.gb20...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 22/06/15 15:32, Gene Heskett wrote: But from the tone of the messages, I think its clear that it should have spent another 6 months on the back table in a lab someplace, getting the kinks worked out so the end result for the unwary user who has not encountered it before, will not be encountering the setup headaches in the quantities that are currently generating all the derogatory comments that it is. Give a program as many months on the back table in a lab someplace as you like; you still won't work out all the kinks from the perspective of the unwary user simply because it's very, very rare for the lab to contain any in the first place. At least some (though by no means all) of the setup headaches people have encountered in the wheezy-jessie transition as a result of systemd can fairly be described as I have an unusual setup with a lot of locally-managed configuration, but despite that it didn't occur to me that it might be a good idea to read the release notes, and maybe do some investigation on a 'scratch' system, before updating my 'production' system(s) from version 7.x of their OS to version 8.0. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55882d15.5030...@zen.co.uk
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Le 22/06/2015 16:22, Lisi Reisz a écrit : Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Lisi Problem is not everybody think they work for Us, those who where debian users far before they came to linux. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55882518.70...@rail.eu.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 22/06/2015 11:49 PM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. It has all the hallmarks of cancer, growing beyond itself to the potential death of that which it has invaded. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWILgYACgkQqBZry7fv4vv/EAEAuOrfBjnOMXhZ9TWuVwWcy/1M r3cyDpcsmQ4NqQdVP8wA/ReeNVl5y/UsXf3PU6I/AuKpBkADmRNUuZQG2uo7mzfm =rA9a -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55882e08.3030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/06/2015 1:43 AM, Martin Read wrote: On 22/06/15 15:32, Gene Heskett wrote: But from the tone of the messages, I think its clear that it should have spent another 6 months on the back table in a lab someplace, getting the kinks worked out so the end result for the unwary user who has not encountered it before, will not be encountering the setup headaches in the quantities that are currently generating all the derogatory comments that it is. Give a program as many months on the back table in a lab someplace as you like; you still won't work out all the kinks from the perspective of the unwary user simply because it's very, very rare for the lab to contain any in the first place. Again, not so simple. I'm just trying out Thunderbird with maildir storage instead of mbox -- they've been working on it for quite a while in dev versions, but nothing has been released until version 38.0.1 and it has problems. I was looking forward to storing local copies of emails which I had to stop due to how TB was handling very large mail stores; looks like I'll have to wait longer for this , but I am hoping the help identify the bugs. systemd come about reasonably quickly, which is very unusual for Debian. Along with it comes all sorts of changes and serious problems that are very detrimental and the stable, safe secure and oft called stale Debian has been lost. I never did mind those original traits, I certainly don't like where Debian is going with systemd ... it's like someone come along and chopped off the nose to spite the face. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWINDcACgkQqBZry7fv4vuVaAEAvnrsG+LVL7qXLIIE992mrAhc I0Bk3c4ekyQl/y6Z4wIA/0b07lT7ACqsoodojwZ7S5H53g6Efs2lI6nVHBd34YrI =J1qG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55883439.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/06/2015 12:31 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But please, please: don't pour hate on people writing free software. This is not helping anyone (well, it is helping those not wanting free software to succeed!). Unfortunately it's not that simple tomás ... not that simple at all. Those that chose to go down the systemd path have created all sorts of grief and a hell of a lot more work for those that don't want anything to do with systemd and it's overreach in to other areas. So much so, that I don't consider Debian to be Debian any more and that is very sad in itself. Before systemd I was a very happy Debian camper, now it is a nightmare. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWILz4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vtK6gD9HulW7aFf887r2hV3LoQmd3p/ pEcbY9gkQLklb0ni8E0BALm7FCALEVS82pHtMfo8w8X5tjKNiZcvaNYl1cwEuXi1 =/XPT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55883106.5000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 11:47:06AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:31:02 +0200 to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But let's not forget they are writing *free software*, and just therefore they deserve a *thank you*. Even if we choose to not use this software. Even if, by hook or by crook, they are intent on imposing the use of the free software ? Which means we would loose the option of not using it ? It is possible to use Debian without systemd. Do something about it, if you care. I'll thank you. regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWIM0cACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYBmQCeJU4B0d4V/VNQVI9Wgy4/1GXQ azgAn1fJz5oLme+Es9e3o5cpvfgTqvZD =rRTT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622160943.gb24...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 06:27:16PM CEST, to...@tuxteam.de said: My take is: I am a fan of Debian. I don't want systemd on my computer. Systemd is the default, and their proponents are no idiots and I assume good intentions. I accept that their viewpoint is as valid as mine. So it is (in part) on me to keep Debian without systemd a viable option. There are many dependencies on systemd (e.g. Gnome) which aren't Debian's fault. No problem for me, since I don't particularly care for Gnome, but perhaps there are other needs. As I see it, there are quite smart people on both sides of the debate and it seems best to try to get along instead of slinging accusations at each other (both sides have been very effective at that, and sadly, I'm not innocent in this either. I regret that). My feeling is also that once you begin to ask for explanations (how or why) it is considered by some systemd fans as a frontal attack, which it is not. What is the use of this libsystemd0 you get even when systemd was never installed ? Where are migration tutorials, docs for people who did not develop systemd ? To those questions I never got answers or even worse (like when I was answered that I had to write the docs). I still have a setting working without systemd that I do not know hoxw to make with it. I still do not know what a mount unit is. I saw that systemd can start daemons when a certain disk is mounted, I still look how to do it, etc... If I where to write a doc now it would be : this setting was possible, systemd maks it impossible. Which is surely false, but given the info I get, may become a reality. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622170259.ga2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:31:02 +0200 to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But let's not forget they are writing *free software*, and just therefore they deserve a *thank you*. Even if we choose to not use this software. Even if, by hook or by crook, they are intent on imposing the use of the free software ? Which means we would loose the option of not using it ? Cheers, Ron. -- The doctrine of human equality reposes on this: that there is no man really clever who has not found that he is stupid. -- Gilbert K. Chesterson -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622114706.69ed0...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
2015-06-22 16:56 GMT+02:00 Darac Marjal mailingl...@darac.org.uk: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 03:22:30PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 14:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Why people who think like that don't just switch to BSD, or, if they must, Devuan, beats me. And isn't Gentoo still systemd free? According to https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems, no. Gentoo supports systemd (it's not the default init, but for those people who seem to be allergic to systemd, I suspect that this is contamination enough). Gentoo can be systemd free, Just don't set the systemd USE flag. Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506221522.30632.lisi.re...@gmail.com -- For more information, please reread.
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 02:00:06AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/06/2015 12:31 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But please, please: don't pour hate on people writing free software. This is not helping anyone (well, it is helping those not wanting free software to succeed!). Unfortunately it's not that simple tomás ... not that simple at all. It *is* so simple (see below). Those that chose to go down the systemd path have created all sorts of grief and a hell of a lot more work for those that don't want anything to do with systemd and it's overreach in to other areas. So much so, that I don't consider Debian to be Debian any more and that is very sad in itself. My take is: I am a fan of Debian. I don't want systemd on my computer. Systemd is the default, and their proponents are no idiots and I assume good intentions. I accept that their viewpoint is as valid as mine. So it is (in part) on me to keep Debian without systemd a viable option. There are many dependencies on systemd (e.g. Gnome) which aren't Debian's fault. No problem for me, since I don't particularly care for Gnome, but perhaps there are other needs. As I see it, there are quite smart people on both sides of the debate and it seems best to try to get along instead of slinging accusations at each other (both sides have been very effective at that, and sadly, I'm not innocent in this either. I regret that). Let's just roll up our sleeves, drop the insults (and ignore those). regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWIN2QACgkQBcgs9XrR2ka42QCfVooPA7R6DvU9hprzJd4+p57Y DM8AnRGgS85zhYLuh8W5q0BC1ONlF4/A =NsT+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622162716.gd24...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:09:43 +0200 to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But let's not forget they are writing *free software*, and just therefore they deserve a *thank you*. Even if we choose to not use this software. Even if, by hook or by crook, they are intent on imposing the use of the free software ? Which means we would loose the option of not using it ? It is possible to use Debian without systemd. Do something about it, if you care. I'll thank you. Seems the nice people at Devuan are doing just that. Cheers, Ron. -- La révolution, c’est faire tout de suite avec coups, plaies, bosses et sang, ce qui de toute façon serait arrivé tout seul par la force des choses. -- Henri Vincenot -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622125016.12c8a...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 03:49:39PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Agreed. Look. I don't like systemd. I don't like its approach, i don't like its design. I even dislike the attitude of some important members of that project. But let's not forget they are writing *free software*, and just therefore they deserve a *thank you*. Even if we choose to not use this software. Imagine: there is these days so much free software out there that we couldn't use all of it if we wanted! Embarrasment of riches! Be happy. Don't use systemd if you don't want to. Write down your findings. Help others who want a systemd-free Debian find their ways. Contribute to eudev, openrc, sysvinit with patches, bug reports, newbie support, whatever. But please, please: don't pour hate on people writing free software. This is not helping anyone (well, it is helping those not wanting free software to succeed!). thanks - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWIHCYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZ8LwCfc10rfqM/fSf9ANAH/9SDrYuW s4gAn0LbYuJOMrStC60CuS5cZk0UxYGR =xSeD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622143102.ga21...@tuxteam.de
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Monday 22 June 2015 09:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Ansgar I don't know as I'd call it a cancer and have little to judge it by since I'm still on wheezy. Since the main application I run is based on wheezy, that will only change when the next big thing is truly stable. But from the tone of the messages, I think its clear that it should have spent another 6 months on the back table in a lab someplace, getting the kinks worked out so the end result for the unwary user who has not encountered it before, will not be encountering the setup headaches in the quantities that are currently generating all the derogatory comments that it is. There is a delicate balance between putting it out there to get wider feedback when its ready for prime time, and just plain jumping the gun. Obviously this balance wasn't considered, it wasn't quite ready for prime time and this is the end result. Predictable? Probably by someone who hasn't yet sampled the koolaid. Now everyone including me are scared of it. Can you blame us? I think its foolish of the defenders to do so, and that genuine comnplaints should, since its now out there for everyone to kick its tires that wants to, be addressed in a timely, speedy manner. I am not seeing, nor am I looking for patches yesterday for tomorrows problems. What I am seeing is far more bashing of the conmplaining user, and less fixes than the current situation seems to need. An old farts 2 cents. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506221032.07526.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Right on, Lisi, thank you. Terence On 22 June 2015 at 15:22, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 14:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Why people who think like that don't just switch to BSD, or, if they must, Devuan, beats me. And isn't Gentoo still systemd free? Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506221522.30632.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 03:22:30PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 14:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Why people who think like that don't just switch to BSD, or, if they must, Devuan, beats me. And isn't Gentoo still systemd free? Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. If they hated Debian, they wouldn't complain. They wouldn't even be on the list. If they didn't love Debian, they would just leave when it got too irksome. The only people still complaining about systemd are people who love Debian. Remember that every time you tell people to go use something else, you are saying that they are not valued members of the community. -dsr- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622145738.gf3...@randomstring.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 22/06/15 18:02, Erwan David wrote: What is the use of this libsystemd0 you get even when systemd was never installed ? Utility functions for programs designed to be run in a systemd-based environment, or to run in many environments but also take advantage of capabilities offered by a systemd-based environment. The nature of shared library linking in Unix means that binary executables in the latter category need libsystemd0 to be present even if they are being run in a non-systemd-based environment. *If* this bothers you, you should run a source-based distribution instead of a binary distribution, so that you have stronger control over what software runs on your systems. Where are migration tutorials, docs for people who did not develop systemd ? Migration tutorials really are best written by people who both (a) are good at writing tutorials (it's a *quite* distinct skill from writing reference documentation) and (b) have migrated non-trivial systems from $OTHER_INIT_SYSTEM to systemd. Quite a few people who did not develop systemd have found the man pages adequate. What, specifically, do you find inadequate? I still have a setting working without systemd that I do not know hoxw to make with it. I still do not know what a mount unit is. A mount unit is a unit that describes a mount point in the system, specifying which filesystem should be mounted, which options should be used, etc. Usually, they are automatically generated (with predictable names) from the contents of /etc/fstab. I saw that systemd can start daemons when a certain disk is mounted, I still look how to do it, etc... You can require a certain service to be running before a certain filesystem is mounted by writing an explicit mount unit for that filesystem which lists the required service as a Requires: dependency. You can require a certain filesystem to be mounted before a certain service can be started by listing that filesystem's mount unit name in the dependencies of the service. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55884ff5.6070...@zen.co.uk
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 03:22:30PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 14:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Why people who think like that don't just switch to BSD, or, if they must, Devuan, beats me. And isn't Gentoo still systemd free? According to https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems, no. Gentoo supports systemd (it's not the default init, but for those people who seem to be allergic to systemd, I suspect that this is contamination enough). Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506221522.30632.lisi.re...@gmail.com -- For more information, please reread. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [...] Remember that every time you tell people to go use something else, you are saying that they are not valued members of the community. I do indeed not consider people with toxic behaviour as valued members of the community. Loving something is *not* an excuse for such behaviour. Short outbursts of temper I can understand, and I assume so can most others, but continued abuse over a long time is not something I think we should put up with. It's just damaging and drives other users and people who contribute away (and this has happened already over this specific behaviour). You're absolutely right. The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. -dsr- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622202149.gh3...@randomstring.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Just tired of seeing the debate brought up along w/ any and every systemd (and sometimes not even mildly related) issue. I wish there's a debian-systemd list for everyone who still wants to have this debate or see it improved / removed (and maybe there is and it should be advertised better). On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 8:07 PM, chris tknch...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Jun 22, 2015 7:24 PM, Zebediah C. McClure z...@ensistech.com wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 18:30:56 shawn wilson wrote: On Jun 22, 2015 4:39 PM, Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [snip] The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. You're being sarcastic - I'm not when I say I totally agree with this statement - use it or leave. Train has left the station on this. (I don't have strong opinions on systemd - I run Ubuntu and Gentoo at work and home and another few Debian boxes at home and the Gentoo boxes don't have systemd. But I don't care that y'all hate or love something and I doubt anyone else on this list does either) Thread jumping a bit here. I subscribed to the list because I find systemd to be broken enough to warrant removal as the default init system. I wasn't here when the devs made the choice to put it in, I'm here now because it's hitting my machines. I'm sure I'm not the first or last to say Systemd is broken, it shouldn't be default init. zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1572002.SC9qDQxlF3@strata -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cah_obifkznz9owm2jczawwkq0_ru4q7hwa3j6emuh+mh+5r...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Jun 22, 2015 4:39 PM, Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [...] Remember that every time you tell people to go use something else, you are saying that they are not valued members of the community. I do indeed not consider people with toxic behaviour as valued members of the community. Loving something is *not* an excuse for such behaviour. Short outbursts of temper I can understand, and I assume so can most others, but continued abuse over a long time is not something I think we should put up with. It's just damaging and drives other users and people who contribute away (and this has happened already over this specific behaviour). You're absolutely right. The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. You're being sarcastic - I'm not when I say I totally agree with this statement - use it or leave. Train has left the station on this. (I don't have strong opinions on systemd - I run Ubuntu and Gentoo at work and home and another few Debian boxes at home and the Gentoo boxes don't have systemd. But I don't care that y'all hate or love something and I doubt anyone else on this list does either)
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Monday 22 June 2015 18:30:56 shawn wilson wrote: On Jun 22, 2015 4:39 PM, Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [snip] The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. You're being sarcastic - I'm not when I say I totally agree with this statement - use it or leave. Train has left the station on this. (I don't have strong opinions on systemd - I run Ubuntu and Gentoo at work and home and another few Debian boxes at home and the Gentoo boxes don't have systemd. But I don't care that y'all hate or love something and I doubt anyone else on this list does either) Thread jumping a bit here. I subscribed to the list because I find systemd to be broken enough to warrant removal as the default init system. I wasn't here when the devs made the choice to put it in, I'm here now because it's hitting my machines. I'm sure I'm not the first or last to say Systemd is broken, it shouldn't be default init. zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1572002.SC9qDQxlF3@strata
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
+1 On Jun 22, 2015 7:24 PM, Zebediah C. McClure z...@ensistech.com wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 18:30:56 shawn wilson wrote: On Jun 22, 2015 4:39 PM, Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [snip] The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. You're being sarcastic - I'm not when I say I totally agree with this statement - use it or leave. Train has left the station on this. (I don't have strong opinions on systemd - I run Ubuntu and Gentoo at work and home and another few Debian boxes at home and the Gentoo boxes don't have systemd. But I don't care that y'all hate or love something and I doubt anyone else on this list does either) Thread jumping a bit here. I subscribed to the list because I find systemd to be broken enough to warrant removal as the default init system. I wasn't here when the devs made the choice to put it in, I'm here now because it's hitting my machines. I'm sure I'm not the first or last to say Systemd is broken, it shouldn't be default init. zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1572002.SC9qDQxlF3@strata
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 22/06/2015 5:38 AM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: chris tknch...@gmail.com writes: systemd is a cancer that you should completely eradicate especially on a system like that Please follow Debian's Code of Conduct[1] (or just basic manners) on Debian's mailing lists. Calling free software projects a cancer is not appropriate whether you like them or not. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer, not impossible to remove, but likely to mean the death of what it is infecting. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWHwqEACgkQqBZry7fv4vtKPQEAiJ4+qDRoHzo0OmqlUjUTWmms d7IOWsKMDPQahNWGWW0A/1MGA2Ng0/OL/L5ApiokIzUSJXYfDoTUTZ7ivix8/eOa =Wf5l -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5587c2a3.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [...] Remember that every time you tell people to go use something else, you are saying that they are not valued members of the community. I do indeed not consider people with toxic behaviour as valued members of the community. Loving something is *not* an excuse for such behaviour. Short outbursts of temper I can understand, and I assume so can most others, but continued abuse over a long time is not something I think we should put up with. It's just damaging and drives other users and people who contribute away (and this has happened already over this specific behaviour). Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ioafy0dz@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
I'm sure it's going to continue, There should be a place for this problem though. I took a quick look at the debian bug-tracker and it looks more like a collection of mailing lists. After looking at how systemd does things, I'd rather have the bug read, Remove as default instead of fixing bugs in systemd. Is there any way to metric how many people think this is a bad decision? zmc On Monday 22 June 2015 20:41:24 you wrote: Just tired of seeing the debate brought up along w/ any and every systemd (and sometimes not even mildly related) issue. I wish there's a debian-systemd list for everyone who still wants to have this debate or see it improved / removed (and maybe there is and it should be advertised better). On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 8:07 PM, chris tknch...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Jun 22, 2015 7:24 PM, Zebediah C. McClure z...@ensistech.com wrote: On Monday 22 June 2015 18:30:56 shawn wilson wrote: On Jun 22, 2015 4:39 PM, Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:05:28PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org writes: People only complain about systemd being a cancer if they love the Debian system otherwise. [snip] The next time a systemd booster tells people to leave the community rather than try to fix Debian, please call them on that behavior and tell them you won't stand for it. You're being sarcastic - I'm not when I say I totally agree with this statement - use it or leave. Train has left the station on this. (I don't have strong opinions on systemd - I run Ubuntu and Gentoo at work and home and another few Debian boxes at home and the Gentoo boxes don't have systemd. But I don't care that y'all hate or love something and I doubt anyone else on this list does either) Thread jumping a bit here. I subscribed to the list because I find systemd to be broken enough to warrant removal as the default init system. I wasn't here when the devs made the choice to put it in, I'm here now because it's hitting my machines. I'm sure I'm not the first or last to say Systemd is broken, it shouldn't be default init. zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1572002.SC9qDQxlF3@strata -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- Confidentiality Privilege Note: This email and any files transmitted with it contain confidential and/or privileged information belonging to Ensis Technologies Inc.. You are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited without the authorization of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery for such person), you should destroy this message and may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, please kindly notify the sender immediately by telephone at (888) 373-9056. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states otherwise. Nota de confidencialidad: Este correo electrónico y los documentos que lo acompañan contienen información confidencial y privilegiada para uso exclusivo de la persona o agencia a la que van dirigidos. Esta información confidencial está protegida por la ley de políticas de privacidad, y su distribución, diseminación o copia sin la debida autorización de quién los envía están estrictamente prohibidos. Si usted no es la persona a la que van dirigidos (ó la persona responsable de entregarlos a esa persona) debe destruir este mensaje y notificarlo de inmediato a Ensis Technologies Inc. al (888) 373-9056. Cualquier opinión expresada en esta comunicación es opinión del individuo que lo envía, excepto en los casos en que se especifica lo contrario. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2204635.9GIo3NqFl7@strata
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Jun 22, 2015 9:16 PM, Zebediah C. McClure z...@ensistech.com wrote: I'm sure it's going to continue, There should be a place for this problem though. I took a quick look at the debian bug-tracker and it looks more like a collection of mailing lists. After looking at how systemd does things, I'd rather have the bug read, Remove as default instead of fixing bugs in systemd. Is there any way to metric how many people think this is a bad decision? I agree it should be able to be easily changed out but it's got some interesting features such that having it default for most archs is fine.
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 06/22/2015 09:16 PM, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: I'm sure it's going to continue, There should be a place for this problem though. I took a quick look at the debian bug-tracker and it looks more like a collection of mailing lists. After looking at how systemd does things, I'd rather have the bug read, Remove as default instead of fixing bugs in systemd. Is there any way to metric how many people think this is a bad decision? Sure! Just go over to the Devuan list. You could do a nose count there. -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5588e14d.2060...@gmail.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Le 20 juin 2015 19:21, Jean-Marc jean-m...@6jf.be a écrit : Sat, 20 Jun 2015 07:43:53 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org écrivait : On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Are you f*cking sure ? Can you check what is your bl*dy init ? Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? The f***cking dpkg -S filename-f*cking-search-pattern will give you an answer about to which f*cking package a file belongs to. Cheers, F*cking Regards, Guy, are you fucking serious ? It's a shame there is no way to ignore people on mailing lists.
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/871th397kc@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Monday 22 June 2015 14:49:39 Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. Why people who think like that don't just switch to BSD, or, if they must, Devuan, beats me. And isn't Gentoo still systemd free? Using Debian, or any other FLOSS software, is not compulsory. Manners and gratitude to those who work for us for nothing are - or should be. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506221522.30632.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
chris tknch...@gmail.com writes: systemd is a cancer that you should completely eradicate especially on a system like that Please follow Debian's Code of Conduct[1] (or just basic manners) on Debian's mailing lists. Calling free software projects a cancer is not appropriate whether you like them or not. Ansgar [1] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87d20oonrr@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Sat, 20 Jun 2015 07:43:53 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org écrivait : On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Are you f*cking sure ? Can you check what is your bl*dy init ? Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? The f***cking dpkg -S filename-f*cking-search-pattern will give you an answer about to which f*cking package a file belongs to. Cheers, F*cking Regards, Ron. Jean-Marc jean-m...@6jf.be pgpvT4D8R8oMX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 07:43:53AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? I would not do that. With the exception of things like localepurge, clean-up should be made on a package by package basis, not on a file by file basis. The rationals is that when packageA has a Depends: packageB, it is assumed that the packageB is installed in full, not just portions of it. If you remove individual files in a package, you might be breaking the system. Try deborphan or debfoster and see what packages you can actually remove. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150620123348.ga30...@cantor.unex.es
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sat, 2015-06-20 at 07:43 -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? Your Raspberry Pi running what? Anyway, try dpkg -S file and see what package the files belong to, and see if it is needed or not. -- Cheers, Sven Arvidsson http://www.whiz.se PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Saturday 20 June 2015 13:04:16 Jean-Marc wrote: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 07:43:53 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org écrivait : On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Are you f*cking sure ? Can you check what is your bl*dy init ? Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? The f***cking dpkg -S filename-f*cking-search-pattern will give you an answer about to which f*cking package a file belongs to. Cheers, F*cking Regards, Ron. Jean-Marc jean-m...@6jf.be This list has a well earned reputation for snarky answers, but this is too much. Learn to be civil or go harrass your cat see if it cares. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506201343.33240.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 2015-06-20, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: This list has a well earned reputation for snarky answers, but this is too much. Learn to be civil or go harrass your cat see if it cares. Cheers, Gene Heskett There are snarky answers and there are also snarky questions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnmobc4m.2jl.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Hi, By default it boots by /sbin/init. Actually it reads /boot/cmdline to boot. It generally points to init system defined on entry append init=/sbin/init. But... systemd made my raspbian unusable. Even reboot failed cause some dependency wasn't match. I installed sysvinit instead and pointed init to that on /boot/cmdline. Unfortunately some Debian packages force the usage of systemd. The good side is most of them don't affect general usage. Abs, Helio Loureiro http://helio.loureiro.eng.br http://br.linkedin.com/in/helioloureiro http://twitter.com/helioloureiro http://gplus.to/helioloureiro 2015-06-20 13:43 GMT+02:00 Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org: On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? Cheers, Ron. -- Sodd's Second Law: Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150620074353.58fc2...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 03:19:57PM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote: At first the need was to prop up a low signal to noise ratio. Now the need has expanded. Oh dear. Looking back now on this thread I see missed completely the OP's potty-mouth. Shame on me! -- Bob Bernstein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150620204153.gb32...@sixtiessurvivor.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On 2015-06-20, Jean-Marc jean-m...@6jf.be wrote: There are snarky answers and there are also snarky questions. Wohoho ! I was just joking in reaction with some rude words. Exactly what I thought and meant. I understood too late this is not the right place for second degree humour. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnmobicv.2jl.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Sat, 20 Jun 2015 18:27:34 + (UTC) Curt cu...@free.fr écrivait : On 2015-06-20, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: This list has a well earned reputation for snarky answers, but this is too much. Learn to be civil or go harrass your cat see if it cares. Cheers, Gene Heskett There are snarky answers and there are also snarky questions. Wohoho ! I was just joking in reaction with some rude words. I understood too late this is not the right place for second degree humour. I'll unsubscribe the list in 2 minutes. Jean-Marc jean-m...@6jf.be P.S. I think there is only one r in harass. pgpXzMaPqnLIX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Saturday 20 June 2015 14:27:34 Curt wrote: On 2015-06-20, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: This list has a well earned reputation for snarky answers, but this is too much. Learn to be civil or go harrass your cat see if it cares. Cheers, Gene Heskett There are snarky answers and there are also snarky questions. I would hope that I can tell the diff between that, and a new bee who really has no concept of how to ask a question. I took the OP as the latter. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506201548.07343.ghesk...@wdtv.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 06:39:46PM -0400, chris wrote: systemd is a cancer that you should completely eradicate especially on a system like that On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=raspbian+support -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150621022346.GC12085@tal
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
systemd is a cancer that you should completely eradicate especially on a system like that On my Raspberry Pi, locate finds me a shitload of systemd files; yet ps aux -A | grep systemd does not show anything. Does this mean I can get rid of all those systemd files, to clear some space on the storage memory card ? Cheers, Ron. -- Sodd's Second Law: Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150620074353.58fc2...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Saturday 20 June 2015 21:41:53 Bob Bernstein wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 03:19:57PM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote: At first the need was to prop up a low signal to noise ratio. Now the need has expanded. Oh dear. Looking back now on this thread I see missed completely the OP's potty-mouth. Shame on me! And he's certainly not a newbie. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506202209.29943.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
Am 20.06.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Helio Loureiro: Hi, By default it boots by /sbin/init. Actually it reads /boot/cmdline to boot. It generally points to init system defined on entry append init=/sbin/init. But... systemd made my raspbian unusable. Even reboot failed cause some dependency wasn't match. Can you be a bit more specific, like error messages you get on stdout/stderr or in the journal, some dependency wasn't match is unfortunately too vague to actually help you with your problem. Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 10:09:29PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: And he's certainly not a newbie. Word dat. What's needed are more subscribers with your flair for colorful expletives. I mean, codswallop? How marvellous! -- IMPORTANT: This email is intended for the use of the individual addressee(s) named above and may contain information that is confidential, privileged or unsuitable for overly sensitive persons with low self-esteem, no sense of humour or irrational metaphysical beliefs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150620220632.ga32...@sixtiessurvivor.org
