Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
[ You accidentally sent this message to me personally and to debian-powerpc-REQUEST. I put this back on debian-user since I don't follow the powerpc list (and the -request address is wrong for normal list mails anyway). ] On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 09:43:31 +0200, Matthias Brennwald wrote: Florian Kulzer wrote: On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 14:48:53 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all thanks for your replies so far. It looks like I'll have (i) to look harder to find the correct key combination or (ii) tweak the configuration my keyboard setup. I prefer (ii) because I want to use the keys on my keyboard in the way they are labelled (I'm really bad in remembering what keystrokes I'll have to press if it's not obvious from the labels on the keys). [...] Thanks! In the meantime I realised that the alt key to the right of the space bar is different from the alt key to the left (that's different from my previous MacOS-X experience, where both keys behave the same). I can type the '@' with right-alt-g, but not with left-alt-g. What's the reason for this difference? Does it make sense to make left-alt behave the same as right-alt? I would not make Alt (left) and AltGr (that is how the right one is usually labeled on pc keyboards) the same since you will lose functionality if you do that. Just to give one example: If I use the . key with AltGr then I get ยท (a dot in the middle of the line). The normal Alt, on the other hand, can give the key an additional function (which depends on the application). In the bash shell Alt + . is a convenient way to insert the last argument from the previous command at the cursor position. This saves a lot of typing and I would certainly not want to miss it. A lot of other X features also depend on a normal Alt, e.g. CTRL + ALT + Fn to switch to a tty, CTRL + ALT + BACKSPACE to kill the X server, etc. To make sure that you are not missing anything I would rather swap the two keys than make both act as AltGr. If not, (how) can I switch their behaviour, i.e. exchange left-alt with right-alt? (I am used to using left-alt, and since I'm switching a lot between Debian and MacOS I'd like to keep things as similar as possible). For a start, I need to see the output of: xmodmap -pk | grep '(g)\|ISO_Level3_Shift' xmodmap -pk | grep '(g)\|ISO_Level3_Shift' 42 0x0067 (g) 0x0047 (G) 0x0040 (at) 0x002c (comma) 0x0040 (at) 0x002c (comma) ^^^ ^^^ All is well: the macintosh keyboard definition already has the (at) key symbol at the correct places. (Otherwise we would have put it there.) 113 0xfe03 (ISO_Level3_Shift) 124 0xfe03 (ISO_Level3_Shift) [...] I can show you how to swap the functions of the two Alt keys. Let me first clarify a few terms: Every key has a fixed keycode which does not change. Xkb assigns one or more symbols (keysyms) to each key(code). The keysyms determine what is sent to the active X application when a given key is pressed (and released, but that is a minor detail). The above output of xmodmap tells you that the key with code 42 will produce symbol g when pressed alone, symbol G when pressed with SHIFT, and, among other things, @ if pressed with the ISO_Level3_Shift modifier (which is usually AltGr). You can run xev and press a few keys to see how this works in practice. In fact, your first step is to find out the keycodes for Alt and AltGr with xev. On my keyboard Alt has keycode 64 and AltGr has 113. Make sure to also check out the difference between pressing Alt(left) + g and Alt(right) + g. As you probably already guessed, the command to view and change keysyms is xmodmap. So, let's have a look at the keysyms of Alt and AltGr: $ xmodmap -pke | egrep 'keycode +(64|113)' keycode 64 = Alt_L Meta_L keycode 113 = ISO_Level3_Shift (You can have a look at the entire keymap with xmodmap -pke | less.) The output of xmodmap -pke has the right format to be fed back to xmodmap in order to change keysyms. In principle you only have to exchange 64 and 113 in the two commands above and you will swap the two Alt keys (as far as any X application can tell). There is, however, a small complication: Xkb has an additional keymap for all the modifier keys, which you can display with xmodmap -pm: $ xmodmap -pm xmodmap: up to 3 keys per modifier, (keycodes in parentheses): shift Shift_L (0x32), Shift_R (0x3e) lockCaps_Lock (0x42) control Control_L (0x25), Control_R (0x6d) mod1Alt_L (0x40), Alt_L (0x7d), Meta_L (0x9c) mod2Num_Lock (0x4d) mod3 mod4Super_L (0x7f), Hyper_L (0x80) mod5Mode_switch (0x5d), ISO_Level3_Shift (0x71), ISO_Level3_Shift (0x7c) This modifier map contains both keysyms and keycodes, and therefore things will go wrong if you change keysyms of modifier keys on the normal keymap without updating the modifier
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
Subject: Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard From: Florian Kulzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 21:49:26 +0200 To: debian-user debian-user@lists.debian.org To: debian-user debian-user@lists.debian.org ... remove mod1 = Alt_L Meta_L remove mod5 = ISO_Level3_Shift keycode 113 = Alt_L Meta_L keycode 64 = ISO_Level3_Shift add mod1 = Alt_L Meta_L add mod5 = ISO_Level3_Shift You can put these six line into a plain text file (adapting 64 and 113 if necessary) and then run xmodmap name-of-the-file-with-the-commands to swap Alt and AltGr. This means that you have to use CTRL + ALT(right) for all the special functions, and ALT(left) + g should give you @. Depending on how you start X it might be enough to put the six commands into a file called .Xmodmap in your home directory to have them executed automatically at every start of X. If that does not work then you have to find an autostart folder of your desktop environment and put the xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap command in a script there. Thanks, this does exactly what I wanted! Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and debian-powerpc). I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4. I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints? Umm, did you try the obvious one? SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)? -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP key: 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74 E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
Greg Folkert wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and debian-powerpc). I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4. I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints? Umm, did you try the obvious one? SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)? Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in my office in front of a PC, while the Mac rests at home). Shift-2 therefore does not give an '@', but rather the symbol that is written on the Apple keyboard. I also tried Option-2 and other 'number keys' with the Option modifier etc., but that did not work, too (this either produce no symbol at all or something else than an '@'). Matthias -- Matthias Brennwald Nagra Hardstrasse 73 CH-5430 Wettingen +41 56 437 13 32 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Greg Folkert wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and debian-powerpc). I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4. I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints? Umm, did you try the obvious one? SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)? Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in my office in front of a PC, while the Mac rests at home). Shift-2 therefore does not give an '@', but rather the symbol that is written on the Apple keyboard. I also tried Option-2 and other 'number keys' with the Option modifier etc., but that did not work, too (this either produce no symbol at all or something else than an '@'). Matthias Wow, I remember that from the old Atari 400 and 800. They had the quote key above the 2 as well. I would suggest checking your keymapping, and make sure you've got the right keyboard selected. Joe -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGSr3siXBCVWpc5J4RAoJCAJ9BDQqDy9YoYdR5z6VGVnucGA9k9wCfTG44 2lBdjy0KG0WNqN7KFYRYvt4= =oK3R -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
Joe Hart wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:
Greg Folkert wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:
Dear all
I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the
best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and
debian-powerpc).
I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4.
I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a
Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce
an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but
that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints?
Umm, did you try the obvious one?
SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)?
Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else
than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in
That sounds like a minimum keyboard, IOW, one which uses the shift
key just to set/clear bits in the ASCII code. Old ADM terminals were
like that. The ADM-1 was, anyway. I don't recall the key now. But
from looking at the ASCII chart, I suggest you try SHIFT-`
(that's SHIFT-GRAVE_ACCENT, which may be below the tilde (~) on
your keyboard). On such keyboards, SHIFT just clears bit 0x20.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
Dear all thanks for your replies so far. It looks like I'll have (i) to look harder to find the correct key combination or (ii) tweak the configuration my keyboard setup. I prefer (ii) because I want to use the keys on my keyboard in the way they are labelled (I'm really bad in remembering what keystrokes I'll have to press if it's not obvious from the labels on the keys). So far I've seen hints to make X11 use the keymaps from a given file. However, with the keymap setting that comes cloesest to my keyboard, the '@' (which is located on the 'G' key of my keyboard) is not functional. Therefore: is it possible to explicitly tell X11 how to handle the behaviour of a given keystroke that is not otherwise handled by the 'normal' keymap settings? If so, I'd like to make 'Alt-g' to produce an '@' (that's the way it's normally done on my keyboard). Cheers, Matthias -- Matthias Brennwald Nagra Hardstrasse 73 CH-5430 Wettingen +41 56 437 13 32 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike McCarty wrote: Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Greg Folkert wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and debian-powerpc). I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4. I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints? Umm, did you try the obvious one? SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)? Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in That sounds like a minimum keyboard, IOW, one which uses the shift key just to set/clear bits in the ASCII code. Old ADM terminals were like that. The ADM-1 was, anyway. I don't recall the key now. But from looking at the ASCII chart, I suggest you try SHIFT-` (that's SHIFT-GRAVE_ACCENT, which may be below the tilde (~) on your keyboard). On such keyboards, SHIFT just clears bit 0x20. Mike Mike, two comments: 1) You don't need to CC: me, I read the list. 2) I did not write any of the above text. You snipped everything I wrote without marking it being snipped, but still show my name. As for the issue at hand, it seems like a simple reassignment of the keyboard definitions would solve the problem. If Matthias is only interested in fixing the settings in X, then dpkg-reconfigure xorg-xserver will walk him through the settings for X, including the keyboard setup. Joe -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGSxAqiXBCVWpc5J4RAryYAJ91IChaQ14+ihX6+kWK+zB51eyKXwCghZkv YYA2sDTolfV/HI88yU+ZoQE= =ENVV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 14:48:53 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: Dear all thanks for your replies so far. It looks like I'll have (i) to look harder to find the correct key combination or (ii) tweak the configuration my keyboard setup. I prefer (ii) because I want to use the keys on my keyboard in the way they are labelled (I'm really bad in remembering what keystrokes I'll have to press if it's not obvious from the labels on the keys). So far I've seen hints to make X11 use the keymaps from a given file. However, with the keymap setting that comes cloesest to my keyboard, the '@' (which is located on the 'G' key of my keyboard) is not functional. Therefore: is it possible to explicitly tell X11 how to handle the behaviour of a given keystroke that is not otherwise handled by the 'normal' keymap settings? If so, I'd like to make 'Alt-g' to produce an '@' (that's the way it's normally done on my keyboard). I might be able to tell you how to set this up using xmodmap, but this depends on how similar your Apple keyboard is to the pc105 ones that I know. For a start, I need to see the output of: xmodmap -pk | grep '(g)\|ISO_Level3_Shift' It can also not hurt if you post the keyboard part of your xorg.conf. You can run awk '/Section InputDevice/,/EndSection/' /etc/X11/xorg.conf to display all sections related to input devices. -- Regards,| http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer Florian | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
Florian Kulzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 14:48:53 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote: thanks for your replies so far. It looks like I'll have (i) to look harder to find the correct key combination or (ii) tweak the configuration my keyboard setup. I prefer (ii) because I want to use the keys on my keyboard in the way they are labelled (I'm really bad in remembering what keystrokes I'll have to press if it's not obvious from the labels on the keys). I might be able to tell you how to set this up using xmodmap, but this depends on how similar your Apple keyboard is to the pc105 ones that I know. For a start, I need to see the output of: xmodmap -pk | grep '(g)\|ISO_Level3_Shift' It can also not hurt if you post the keyboard part of your xorg.conf. You can run awk '/Section InputDevice/,/EndSection/' /etc/X11/xorg.conf Damn, I love this mailing list. Some of you people are like gods to me. The best I was able to come up with on this was wrong keyboard definition and maybe play with xev to see what it says the key's doing. Some of you must spend your entire day reading man pages. :-0 Woof. Way cool, Florian. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. Spammers! http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling/emails.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard
On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 03:28 +, s. keeling wrote: Florian Kulzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I might be able to tell you how to set this up using xmodmap, but this depends on how similar your Apple keyboard is to the pc105 ones that I know. For a start, I need to see the output of: xmodmap -pk | grep '(g)\|ISO_Level3_Shift' It can also not hurt if you post the keyboard part of your xorg.conf. You can run awk '/Section InputDevice/,/EndSection/' /etc/X11/xorg.conf Damn, I love this mailing list. Some of you people are like gods to me. The best I was able to come up with on this was wrong keyboard definition and maybe play with xev to see what it says the key's doing. Some of you must spend your entire day reading man pages. :-0 Woof. Way cool, Florian. What it actually comes from is HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of trying to fix things. Learning what to do and what to REALLY stay away from. Learning what give you what you want in the fewest keystrokes or the least work to wrap you mind around something. awk... if you use *NIX: sed, grep, awk are your three bestestest friends. Just to give you an idea of what I mean, I was able to fix an entire set of 3M+ records in a system by: * Dumping the data into a dumpfile * Use grep to locate the bad data and look at it. * use sed to change all the data needing to be changed, in one pass. * use awk to display it properly to make sure nothing went wrong * write it to another file * rename the old table * create a new table (with indexes, etc) * verify the data through programmers reports * Drop the old table All in less time than it would have taken to let the system fix it. As the relational stuff would have killed performance in any case. the 3M+ records were actually corrected in under 3 minutes on an old 1GHz Linux machine with lotsa memory. The 4 CPU server would have been pegged for hours. We tried to correct the data on the QA system, which is a complete mirror of the production machine. Can we say ouch? -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP key: 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74 E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
