Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Linux-Fan]

David Christensen writes:


On 2/12/24 08:30, Linux-Fan wrote:

David Christensen writes:


On 2/11/24 02:26, Linux-Fan wrote:

I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple threads:
https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml


What algorithm did you implement?


I copied the algorithm from here:
https://www.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/numerical_recipes.shtml


That Java code uses locks, which implies it uses global state and cannot be  
run multi-threaded (?).  (E.g. one process with one JVM.)


Indeed, the example code uses locks which is bad from a performance point of  
view. That is why _my_ implementation works without this fine-grained  
locking and instead ensures that each thread uses its own instance as to  
avoid the lock. IOW: I copied the algorithm but of course adjusted the code  
to my use case.


My version basically runs as follows:

* Create one queue of ByteBuffers
* Create multiple threads
   * Each thread runs their own RNG instance
   * Upon finishing the creation of a buffer, it enqueues
 the resulting ByteBuffer into the queue (this is the only
 part where multiple threads access concurrently)
* The main thread dequeues from the queue and writes the
  buffers to the output file

Is it possible to obtain parallel operation on an SMP machine with multiple  
virtual processors?  (Other than multiple OS processes with one PRNG on one  
JVM each?)


Even the locked random could be instantiated multiple times (each instance  
gets their own lock) and this could still be faster than running just  
one of it. However, since the computation itself is fast, I suppose the  
performance hit from managing the locks could be significant. Multiple OS  
processes would also work, but is pretty uncommon in Java land AFAIR.


I found it during the development of another application where I needed a  
lot of random data for simulation purposes :)


My implementation code is here:
https://github.com/m7a/bo-big/blob/master/latest/Big4.java


See the end of that file to compare with the “Numerical Recipes” RNG linked  
further above to observe the difference wrt. locking :)



If I were to do it again today, I'd probably switch to any of these PRNGS:

* https://burtleburtle.net/bob/rand/smallprng.html
* https://www.pcg-random.org/


Hard core.  I'll let the experts figure it out; and then I will use their  
libraries and programs.


IIRC one of the findings of PCG was that the default RNGs of many  
programming languages and environments are surprisingly bad. I only arrived at  
using a non-default implementation after facing some issues with the Java  
integrated ThreadLocalRandom ”back then” :)


It may indeed be worth pointing out (as Jeffrey Walton already mentioned in  
another subthread) that these RNGs discussed here are _not_ cryptographic  
RNGs. I think for disk testing purposes it is OK to use fast non- 
cryptographic RNGs, but other applications may have higher demands on their  
RNGs.


HTH
Linux-Fan

öö

[...]


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[David Christensen]

On 2/12/24 08:30, Linux-Fan wrote:

David Christensen writes:


On 2/11/24 02:26, Linux-Fan wrote:
I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple 
threads:

https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml


What algorithm did you implement?


I copied the algorithm from here:
https://www.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/numerical_recipes.shtml



That Java code uses locks, which implies it uses global state and cannot 
be run multi-threaded (?).  (E.g. one process with one JVM.)



Is it possible to obtain parallel operation on an SMP machine with 
multiple virtual processors?  (Other than multiple OS processes with one 
PRNG on one JVM each?)



I found it during the development of another application where I needed 
a lot of random data for simulation purposes :)


My implementation code is here:
https://github.com/m7a/bo-big/blob/master/latest/Big4.java

If I were to do it again today, I'd probably switch to any of these PRNGS:

* https://burtleburtle.net/bob/rand/smallprng.html
* https://www.pcg-random.org/



Hard core.  I'll let the experts figure it out; and then I will use 
their libraries and programs.



David

Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:02 PM Linux-Fan  wrote:
>
> David Christensen writes:
>
> > On 2/11/24 02:26, Linux-Fan wrote:
> >> I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple 
> >> threads:
> >> https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml
> >>
> >> Before knowing about `fio` this way my way to benchmark SSDs :)
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>
> >> | $ big4 -b /dev/null 100 GiB
> >> | Ma_Sys.ma Big 4.0.2, Copyright (c) 2014, 2019, 2020 Ma_Sys.ma.
> >> | For further info send an e-mail to ma_sys...@web.de.
>
> [...]
>
> >> | 99.97% +8426 MiB 7813 MiB/s 102368/102400 MiB
> >> | Wrote 102400 MiB in 13 s @ 7812.023 MiB/s
> >
> >
> > What algorithm did you implement?
>
> I copied the algorithm from here:
> https://www.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/numerical_recipes.shtml
>
> I found it during the development of another application where I needed a
> lot of random data for simulation purposes :)

A PRNG for a simulation has different requirements than a PRNG for
cryptographic purposes. A simulation usually needs numbers fast from a
uniform distribution. Simulations can use predictable numbers. Often a
Linear Congurential Generator (LCG) will do just fine even though they
were broken about 35 years ago. See Also see Joan Boyer's Inferring
Sequences Produced by Pseudo-Random Number Generators,
.

A cryptographic application will have more stringent requirements. A
cryptographic generator may (will?) take longer to generate a number,
the numbers need to come from a uniform distribution, and the numbers
need to be prediction resistant. You can read about the cryptographic
qualities of random numbers in NIST SP800-90 and friends.

> My implementation code is here:
> https://github.com/m7a/bo-big/blob/master/latest/Big4.java
>
> If I were to do it again today, I'd probably switch to any of these PRNGS:
>
>  * https://burtleburtle.net/bob/rand/smallprng.html
>  * https://www.pcg-random.org/
>
> >> Secure Random can be obtained from OpenSSL:
> >>
> >> | $ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 
> >> 1024
> >> * 1024)); done
> >> |
> >> | real0m49.288s
> >> | user0m44.710s
> >> | sys0m4.579s
> >>
> >> Effectively 2078 MiB/s (quite OK for single-threaded operation). It is not
> >> designed to generate large amounts of random data as the size is limited by
> >> integer range...

Jeff

Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Linux-Fan]

David Christensen writes:


On 2/11/24 02:26, Linux-Fan wrote:

I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple threads:
https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml

Before knowing about `fio` this way my way to benchmark SSDs :)

Example:

| $ big4 -b /dev/null 100 GiB
| Ma_Sys.ma Big 4.0.2, Copyright (c) 2014, 2019, 2020 Ma_Sys.ma.
| For further info send an e-mail to ma_sys...@web.de.


[...]


| 99.97% +8426 MiB 7813 MiB/s 102368/102400 MiB
| Wrote 102400 MiB in 13 s @ 7812.023 MiB/s



What algorithm did you implement?


I copied the algorithm from here:
https://www.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/numerical_recipes.shtml

I found it during the development of another application where I needed a  
lot of random data for simulation purposes :)


My implementation code is here:
https://github.com/m7a/bo-big/blob/master/latest/Big4.java

If I were to do it again today, I'd probably switch to any of these PRNGS:

* https://burtleburtle.net/bob/rand/smallprng.html
* https://www.pcg-random.org/


Secure Random can be obtained from OpenSSL:

| $ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 1024  
* 1024)); done

|
| real    0m49.288s
| user    0m44.710s
| sys    0m4.579s

Effectively 2078 MiB/s (quite OK for single-threaded operation). It is not  
designed to generate large amounts of random data as the size is limited by  
integer range...



Thank you for posting the openssl(1) incantation.


You're welcome.

[...]

HTH
Linux-Fan

öö


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[David Christensen]

On 2/11/24 02:26, Linux-Fan wrote:
I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple 
threads:

https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml

Before knowing about `fio` this way my way to benchmark SSDs :)

Example:

| $ big4 -b /dev/null 100 GiB
| Ma_Sys.ma Big 4.0.2, Copyright (c) 2014, 2019, 2020 Ma_Sys.ma.
| For further info send an e-mail to ma_sys...@web.de.
|| 0.00% +0 MiB 0 MiB/s 0/102400 MiB
| 3.48% +3562 MiB 3255 MiB/s 3562/102400 MiB
| 11.06% +7764 MiB 5407 MiB/s 11329/102400 MiB
| 19.31% +8436 MiB 6387 MiB/s 19768/102400 MiB
| 27.71% +8605 MiB 6928 MiB/s 28378/102400 MiB
| 35.16% +7616 MiB 7062 MiB/s 35999/102400 MiB
| 42.58% +7595 MiB 7150 MiB/s 43598/102400 MiB
| 50.12% +7720 MiB 7230 MiB/s 51321/102400 MiB
| 58.57% +8648 MiB 7405 MiB/s 59975/102400 MiB
| 66.96% +8588 MiB 7535 MiB/s 68569/102400 MiB
| 75.11% +8343 MiB 7615 MiB/s 76916/102400 MiB
| 83.38% +8463 MiB 7691 MiB/s 85383/102400 MiB
| 91.74% +8551 MiB 7762 MiB/s 93937/102400 MiB
| 99.97% +8426 MiB 7813 MiB/s 102368/102400 MiB
|| Wrote 102400 MiB in 13 s @ 7812.023 MiB/s



What algorithm did you implement?



Secure Random can be obtained from OpenSSL:

| $ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 
1024 * 1024)); done

|
| real    0m49.288s
| user    0m44.710s
| sys    0m4.579s

Effectively 2078 MiB/s (quite OK for single-threaded operation). It is 
not designed to generate large amounts of random data as the size is 
limited by integer range...



Thank you for posting the openssl(1) incantation.


Benchmarking my daily driver laptop without Intel Secure Key:

2024-02-11 21:54:04 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ lscpu | grep 'Model name'
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 
2.20GHz


2024-02-11 21:54:09 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 
1024 * 1024)); done


real1m40.149s
user1m25.174s
sys 0m14.952s


So, ~1.072E+9 bytes per second.


Benchmarking a workstation with Intel Secure Key:

2024-02-11 21:54:40 dpchrist@taz ~
$ lscpu | grep 'Model name'
Model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) E-2174G CPU @ 3.80GHz

2024-02-11 21:54:46 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 
1024 * 1024)); done


real1m14.696s
user1m0.338s
sys 0m14.353s


So, ~1.437E+09 bytes per second.


David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Christensen]

On 2/11/24 03:13, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

David Christensen wrote:

Concurrency:
threads throughput
8   205+198+180+195+205+184+184+189=1,540 MB/s


There remains the question how to join these streams without losing speed
in order to produce a single checksum. (Or one would have to divide the
target into 8 areas which get checked separately.)



I had similar thoughts.  A FIFO should be able to join the streams. 
But, dividing the device by the number of virtual cores and putting a 
thread on each makes more sense.  Either done right should fill the 
drive I/O capacity.




Does this 8 thread generator cause any problems with the usability of
the rest of the system ? Sluggish program behavior or so ?



CPU Graph shows all eight virtual cores at 100%, so everything else on 
the system would be sluggish (unless you use nice(1)).



Here is a processor with Intel Secure Key and otherwise unloaded:

2024-02-11 11:48:21 dpchrist@taz ~
$ lscpu | grep 'Model name'
Model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) E-2174G CPU @ 3.80GHz

2024-02-11 11:59:55 dpchrist@taz ~
$ cat /etc/debian_version ; uname -a
11.8
Linux taz 5.10.0-27-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.205-2 (2023-12-31) x86_64 
GNU/Linux


2024-02-11 12:02:52 dpchrist@taz ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=10K
10240+0 records in
10240+0 records out
10737418240 bytes (11 GB, 10 GiB) copied, 20.0469 s, 536 MB/s

threads throughput
1   536 MB/s
2   512+512 = 1,024 MB/s
3   502+503+503 = 1,508 MB/s
4   492+491+492+492 = 1,967 MB/s
5   492+384+491+385+491 = 2,243 MB/s
6   379+491+492+379+379+379 = 2,499 MB/s
7   352+491+356+388+352+357+388 = 2,684 MB/s
8   355+354+344+348+344+354+353+349 = 2,801 MB/s



I have to correct my previous measurement on the 4 GHz Xeon, which was
made with a debuggable version of the program that produced the stream.
The production binary which is compiled with -O2 can write 2500 MB/s into
a pipe with a pacifier program which counts the data:

   $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni | $(scdbackup -where bin)/raedchen -step 100m -no_output 
-print_count
   100.0g bytes

   real0m39.884s
   user0m30.629s
   sys 0m41.013s

(One would have to install scdbackup to reproduce this and to see raedchen
  count the bytes while spinning the classic SunOS boot wheel: |/-\|/-\|/-\
http://scdbackup.webframe.org/main_eng.html
http://scdbackup.webframe.org/examples.html
  Oh nostalgy ...
)

Totally useless but yielding nearly 4000 MB/s:

   $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni >/dev/null

   real0m27.064s
   user0m23.433s
   sys 0m3.646s

The main bottleneck in my proposal would be the checksummer:

   $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni | md5sum
   5a6ba41c2c18423fa33355005445c183  -

   real2m8.160s
   user2m25.599s
   sys 0m22.663s

That's quite exactly 800 MiB/s ~= 6.7 Gbps.
Still good enough for vanilla USB-3 with a fast SSD, i'd say.



Yes -- more than enough throughput.


Before I knew of fdupes(1) and jdupes(1), I wrote a Perl script to find 
duplicate files.  It uses the Digest module, and supports any algorithm 
supported by that module.  Here are some runs against a local ext4 on 
LUKS (with AES-NI) on Intel SSD 520 Series 60 GB and check summing whole 
files:


2024-02-11 13:32:47 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest MD4 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m0.878s
user0m0.741s
sys 0m0.137s

2024-02-11 13:33:14 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest MD5 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m1.110s
user0m0.977s
sys 0m0.132s

2024-02-11 13:33:19 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest SHA-1 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m1.306s
user0m1.151s
sys 0m0.156s

2024-02-11 13:36:40 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest SHA-256 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m2.545s
user0m2.424s
sys 0m0.121s

2024-02-11 13:36:51 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest SHA-384 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m1.808s
user0m1.652s
sys 0m0.157s

2024-02-11 13:37:00 dpchrist@taz ~
$ time finddups --filter w --digest SHA-512 .thunderbird/ >/dev/null

real0m1.814s
user0m1.673s
sys 0m0.141s


It is curious that SHA-384 and SHA-512 are faster than SHA-256.  I can 
confirm similar results on:


2024-02-11 13:39:58 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ lscpu | grep 'Model name'
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 
2.20GHz



David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Christensen]

On 2/11/24 00:07, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

In the other thread about the /dev/sdm test:

Gene Heskett wrote:

Creating file 39.h2w ... 1.98% -- 1.90 MB/s -- 257:11:32
[...]
$ sudo f3probe --destructive --time-ops /dev/sdm
Bad news: The device `/dev/sdm' is a counterfeit of type limbo
Device geometry:
  *Usable* size: 59.15 GB (124050944 blocks)
 Announced size: 1.91 TB (409600 blocks)


David Christensen wrote:

Which other thread?  Please provide a URL to archived post.


https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/e7a0c1a1-f973-4007-a86d-8d91d8d91...@shentel.net
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/b566504b-5677-4d84-b5b3-b0de63230...@shentel.net



Thank you.  :-)


David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 9:52 AM Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> David Christensen wrote:
> > Concurrency:
> > threads throughput
> > 8   205+198+180+195+205+184+184+189=1,540 MB/s
>
> There remains the question how to join these streams without losing speed
> in order to produce a single checksum. (Or one would have to divide the
> target into 8 areas which get checked separately.)

Hash Tree or Merkle Tree. They are used in blockchains.

> Does this 8 thread generator cause any problems with the usability of
> the rest of the system ? Sluggish program behavior or so ?
>
> The main reason to have my own low-quality implementation of a random
> stream was that /dev/urandom was too slow for 12x speed (= 1.8 MB/s) CD-RW
> media and that higher random quality still put too much load on a
> single-core 600 MHz Pentium system. That was nearly 25 years ago.

Jeff

Re: Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/11/24 05:26, Linux-Fan wrote:

David Christensen writes:


On 2/11/24 00:11, Thomas Schmitt wrote:


[...]


Increase block size:

2024-02-11 01:18:51 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
1024+0 records in
1024+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.62874 s, 296 MB/s


Here (Intel Xeon W-2295)

| $ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
| 1024+0 records in
| 1024+0 records out
| 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 2.15018 s, 499 MB/s



Raspberry pi 5:

dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
1024+0 records in
1024+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.0122 s, 356 MB/s

Now lets do it right and use random..
dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
1024+0 records in
1024+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 2.9859 s, 360 MB/s


Secure Random can be obtained from OpenSSL:

| $ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 
1024 * 1024)); done

|
| real    0m49.288s
| user    0m44.710s
| sys    0m4.579s


time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 1024 
* 1024)); done


real1m30.884s
user1m24.528s
sys 0m6.116s

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

David Christensen wrote:
> Concurrency:
> threads throughput
> 8   205+198+180+195+205+184+184+189=1,540 MB/s

There remains the question how to join these streams without losing speed
in order to produce a single checksum. (Or one would have to divide the
target into 8 areas which get checked separately.)

Does this 8 thread generator cause any problems with the usability of
the rest of the system ? Sluggish program behavior or so ?

The main reason to have my own low-quality implementation of a random
stream was that /dev/urandom was too slow for 12x speed (= 1.8 MB/s) CD-RW
media and that higher random quality still put too much load on a
single-core 600 MHz Pentium system. That was nearly 25 years ago.


I wrote:
> > Last time i tested /dev/urandom it was much slower on comparable machines
> > and also became slower as the amount grew.

> Did you figure out why the Linux random number subsystem slowed, and at what
> amount?

No. I cannot even remember when and why i had reason to compare it with
my own stream generator. Maybe 5 or 10 years ago. The throughput was
more than 100 times better.


I have to correct my previous measurement on the 4 GHz Xeon, which was
made with a debuggable version of the program that produced the stream.
The production binary which is compiled with -O2 can write 2500 MB/s into
a pipe with a pacifier program which counts the data:

  $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni | $(scdbackup -where bin)/raedchen -step 100m -no_output 
-print_count
  100.0g bytes

  real0m39.884s
  user0m30.629s
  sys 0m41.013s

(One would have to install scdbackup to reproduce this and to see raedchen
 count the bytes while spinning the classic SunOS boot wheel: |/-\|/-\|/-\
   http://scdbackup.webframe.org/main_eng.html
   http://scdbackup.webframe.org/examples.html
 Oh nostalgy ...
)

Totally useless but yielding nearly 4000 MB/s:

  $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni >/dev/null

  real0m27.064s
  user0m23.433s
  sys 0m3.646s

The main bottleneck in my proposal would be the checksummer:

  $ time $(scdbackup -where bin)/cd_backup_planer -write_random - 100g 
2s62gss463ar46492bni | md5sum
  5a6ba41c2c18423fa33355005445c183  -

  real2m8.160s
  user2m25.599s
  sys 0m22.663s

That's quite exactly 800 MiB/s ~= 6.7 Gbps.
Still good enough for vanilla USB-3 with a fast SSD, i'd say.


> TIMTOWTDI.  :-)

Looks like another example of a weak random stream. :))


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Fast Random Data Generation (Was: Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Linux-Fan]

David Christensen writes:


On 2/11/24 00:11, Thomas Schmitt wrote:


[...]


Increase block size:

2024-02-11 01:18:51 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
1024+0 records in
1024+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.62874 s, 296 MB/s


Here (Intel Xeon W-2295)

| $ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
| 1024+0 records in
| 1024+0 records out
| 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 2.15018 s, 499 MB/s


Concurrency:

threads throughput
1   296 MB/s
2   285+286=571 MB/s
3   271+264+266=801 MB/s
4   249+250+241+262=1,002 MB/s
5   225+214+210+224+225=1,098 MB/s
6   223+199+199+204+213+205=1,243 MB/s
7   191+209+210+204+213+201+197=1,425 MB/s
8   205+198+180+195+205+184+184+189=1,540 MB/s


I wrote a program to automatically generate random bytes in multiple threads:
https://masysma.net/32/big4.xhtml

Before knowing about `fio` this way my way to benchmark SSDs :)

Example:

| $ big4 -b /dev/null 100 GiB
| Ma_Sys.ma Big 4.0.2, Copyright (c) 2014, 2019, 2020 Ma_Sys.ma.
| For further info send an e-mail to ma_sys...@web.de.
| 
| 0.00% +0 MiB 0 MiB/s 0/102400 MiB

| 3.48% +3562 MiB 3255 MiB/s 3562/102400 MiB
| 11.06% +7764 MiB 5407 MiB/s 11329/102400 MiB
| 19.31% +8436 MiB 6387 MiB/s 19768/102400 MiB
| 27.71% +8605 MiB 6928 MiB/s 28378/102400 MiB
| 35.16% +7616 MiB 7062 MiB/s 35999/102400 MiB
| 42.58% +7595 MiB 7150 MiB/s 43598/102400 MiB
| 50.12% +7720 MiB 7230 MiB/s 51321/102400 MiB
| 58.57% +8648 MiB 7405 MiB/s 59975/102400 MiB
| 66.96% +8588 MiB 7535 MiB/s 68569/102400 MiB
| 75.11% +8343 MiB 7615 MiB/s 76916/102400 MiB
| 83.38% +8463 MiB 7691 MiB/s 85383/102400 MiB
| 91.74% +8551 MiB 7762 MiB/s 93937/102400 MiB
| 99.97% +8426 MiB 7813 MiB/s 102368/102400 MiB
| 
| Wrote 102400 MiB in 13 s @ 7812.023 MiB/s


[...]

Secure Random can be obtained from OpenSSL:

| $ time for i in `seq 1 100`; do openssl rand -out /dev/null $((1024 * 1024 * 
1024)); done
|
| real  0m49.288s
| user  0m44.710s
| sys   0m4.579s

Effectively 2078 MiB/s (quite OK for single-threaded operation). It is not  
designed to generate large amounts of random data as the size is limited by  
integer range...


HTH
Linux-Fan

öö


pgpoAijtbLtka.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Christensen]

On 2/11/24 00:11, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

David Christensen wrote:

$ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
[...]
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.30652 s, 249 MB/s


This looks good enough for practical use on spinning rust and slow SSD.



Yes.



Maybe the "wc" pipe slows it down ?
... not much on 4 GHz Xeon with Debian 11:

   $ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
   ...
   1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.13074 s, 260 MB/s
   $ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K of=/dev/null
   ...
   1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.95569 s, 271 MB/s



My CPU has a Max Turbo Frequency of 3.3 GHz.  I would expect a 4 GHz 
processor to be ~21% faster, but apparently not.



Baseline with pipeline, wc(1), and bs=8K due to unknown Bash pipeline 
bottleneck (?):


2024-02-11 01:18:33 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
1073741824
131072+0 records in
131072+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.27283 s, 251 MB/s


Eliminate pipeline and wc(1):

2024-02-11 01:18:44 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=8K count=128K
131072+0 records in
131072+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.75946 s, 286 MB/s


Increase block size:

2024-02-11 01:18:51 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
1024+0 records in
1024+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.62874 s, 296 MB/s


Concurrency:

threads throughput
1   296 MB/s
2   285+286=571 MB/s
3   271+264+266=801 MB/s
4   249+250+241+262=1,002 MB/s
5   225+214+210+224+225=1,098 MB/s
6   223+199+199+204+213+205=1,243 MB/s
7   191+209+210+204+213+201+197=1,425 MB/s
8   205+198+180+195+205+184+184+189=1,540 MB/s



Last time i tested /dev/urandom it was much slower on comparable machines
and also became slower as the amount grew.



Did you figure out why the Linux random number subsystem slowed, and at 
what amount?




Therefore i still have my amateur RNG which works with a little bit of
MD5 and a lot of EXOR. It produces about 1100 MiB/s on the 4 GHz machine.
No cryptographical strength, but chaotic enough to avoid any systematic
pattern which could be recognized by a cheater and represented with
some high compression factor.
The original purpose was to avoid any systematic interference with the
encoding of data blocks on optical media.

I am sure there are faster RNGs around with better random quality.



I assume the Linux kernel in Debian 11 is new enough to support RDRAND (?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RdRand


But, my processor is too old to have Secure Key.



$ time perl -MMath::Random::ISAAC::XS -e 
'$i=Math::Random::ISAAC::XS->new(12345678); print pack 'L',$i->irand while 1' | 
dd bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 82.6523 s, 13.0 MB/s


Now that's merely sufficient for shredding the content of a BD-RE medium
or a slow USB stick.



Okay.



I suggest using /dev/urandom and tee(1) to write the same CSPRN
stream to all of the devices and using cmp(1) to validate.


I'd propose to use a checksummer like md5sum or sha256sum instead of cmp:

  $random_generator | tee $target | $checksummer
  dd if=$target bs=... count=... | $checksummer

This way one can use unreproducible random streams and does not have to
store the whole stream on a reliable device for comparison.



TIMTOWTDI.  :-)


David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

David Christensen wrote:
> $ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
> [...]
> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.30652 s, 249 MB/s

This looks good enough for practical use on spinning rust and slow SSD.

Maybe the "wc" pipe slows it down ?
... not much on 4 GHz Xeon with Debian 11:

  $ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
  ...
  1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.13074 s, 260 MB/s
  $ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K of=/dev/null
  ...
  1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 3.95569 s, 271 MB/s

Last time i tested /dev/urandom it was much slower on comparable machines
and also became slower as the amount grew.

Therefore i still have my amateur RNG which works with a little bit of
MD5 and a lot of EXOR. It produces about 1100 MiB/s on the 4 GHz machine.
No cryptographical strength, but chaotic enough to avoid any systematic
pattern which could be recognized by a cheater and represented with
some high compression factor.
The original purpose was to avoid any systematic interference with the
encoding of data blocks on optical media.

I am sure there are faster RNGs around with better random quality.


> $ time perl -MMath::Random::ISAAC::XS -e 
> '$i=Math::Random::ISAAC::XS->new(12345678); print pack 'L',$i->irand while 1' 
> | dd bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 82.6523 s, 13.0 MB/s

Now that's merely sufficient for shredding the content of a BD-RE medium
or a slow USB stick.


> I suggest using /dev/urandom and tee(1) to write the same CSPRN
> stream to all of the devices and using cmp(1) to validate.

I'd propose to use a checksummer like md5sum or sha256sum instead of cmp:

 $random_generator | tee $target | $checksummer
 dd if=$target bs=... count=... | $checksummer

This way one can use unreproducible random streams and does not have to
store the whole stream on a reliable device for comparison.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > In the other thread about the /dev/sdm test:
Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Creating file 39.h2w ... 1.98% -- 1.90 MB/s -- 257:11:32
> > > [...]
> > > $ sudo f3probe --destructive --time-ops /dev/sdm
> > > Bad news: The device `/dev/sdm' is a counterfeit of type limbo
> > > Device geometry:
> > >  *Usable* size: 59.15 GB (124050944 blocks)
> > > Announced size: 1.91 TB (409600 blocks)

David Christensen wrote:
> Which other thread?  Please provide a URL to archived post.

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/e7a0c1a1-f973-4007-a86d-8d91d8d91...@shentel.net
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/b566504b-5677-4d84-b5b3-b0de63230...@shentel.net


> So, the 2 TB USB SSD's are really scam 64 GB devices?

The manufacturer would probably state that it's no intentional scam but
just poor product quality. (Exploiting Hanlon's Razor.)

It might be intentional that the write speed gets slower and slower as
the end of the usable area is approached. This avoids the need for
confessing the failure to the operating system.
But it might also be an honest attempt of the disk's firmware to find
some blocks which can take and give back the arriving data.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Christensen]

On 2/10/24 10:28, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

In the other thread about the /dev/sdm test:

Creating file 39.h2w ... 1.98% -- 1.90 MB/s -- 257:11:32
but is taking a few bytes now and then.
[...]
$ ls -l
total 40627044
[...]
$ sudo f3probe --destructive --time-ops /dev/sdm
Bad news: The device `/dev/sdm' is a counterfeit of type limbo
Device geometry:
 *Usable* size: 59.15 GB (124050944 blocks)
Announced size: 1.91 TB (409600 blocks)
...
Probe time: 2.07s



Which other thread?  Please provide a URL to archived post.


So, the 2 TB USB SSD's are really scam 64 GB devices?


David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Christensen]

On 2/10/24 02:38, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

I have an own weak-random generator, but shred beats it by a factor of 10
when writing to /dev/null.



As a baseline, here is a 2011 Dell Latitude E6520 with Debian generating 
a non-repeatable 1 GiB stream of cryptographically secure pseudo-random 
numbers:


2024-02-10 14:10:27 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ lscpu | grep 'Model name'
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 
2.20GHz


2024-02-10 14:01:25 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ cat /etc/debian_version ; uname -a
11.8
Linux laalaa 5.10.0-27-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.205-2 (2023-12-31) 
x86_64 GNU/Linux


2024-02-10 14:01:47 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ bash --version | head -n 1
GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)

2024-02-10 14:13:08 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ time dd if=/dev/urandom bs=8K count=128K | wc -c
1073741824
131072+0 records in
131072+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 4.30652 s, 249 MB/s

real0m4.311s
user0m0.107s
sys 0m4.695s


If the OP has a known good storage device of equal or larger size than 
the UUT(s), I suggest using /dev/urandom and tee(1) to write the same 
CSPRN stream to all of the devices and using cmp(1) to validate.



I use Perl.  When I needed a CSPRNG, I searched and found:

https://metacpan.org/pod/Math::Random::ISAAC::XS


Using Perl and Math::Random::ISAAC::XS to generate a repeatable stream 
of cryptographically secure pseudo-random numbers:


2024-02-10 14:09:12 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ perl -v | head -n 2 | grep .
This is perl 5, version 32, subversion 1 (v5.32.1) built for 
x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi


2024-02-10 14:09:53 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ perl -MMath::Random::ISAAC::XS -e 'print 
$Math::Random::ISAAC::XS::VERSION, $/'

1.004

2024-02-10 14:10:32 dpchrist@laalaa ~
$ time perl -MMath::Random::ISAAC::XS -e 
'$i=Math::Random::ISAAC::XS->new(12345678); print pack 'L',$i->irand 
while 1' | dd bs=8K count=128K | wc -c

1073741824
131072+0 records in
131072+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB, 1.0 GiB) copied, 82.6523 s, 13.0 MB/s

real1m22.657s
user1m22.892s
sys 0m5.810s


The 'perl ... | dd ...' pipeline appears to be limited to a block size 
of 8,192 bytes.  I do not know if this is due to bash(1), perl(1), or 
dd(1) (?).



The repeatability of the ISAAC stream would substitute for the known 
good storage device, but the throughput is ~19x slower than 
/dev/urandom.  A drive capacity validation tool would want to feature 
concurrent threads and I/O on SMP machines.



David

Re: Unidentified subject!

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/24 13:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

gene heskett wrote:

my fading eyesight couldn't see
the diffs between () and {} in a 6 point font.  I need a bigger, more
legible font in t-bird.


That's why i propose to copy+paste problematic command lines.

Your mouse can read it, your mail client can send it, and we have
youngsters here of merely 60 years who will be glad to tell our
most senior regular why the lines don't work.

With some luck this creates nostalgic tangents about how the used features
evolved since the early 1980s.

Or even the later 1970's when I made a cosmac super elf RCA 1802 board 
do anything I could dream up. Made the video hdwe, and the interface to 
control a broadcast vcr. S-100 bus adapter was the only thing I bought, 
and had to build that from a kit.  Built it for KRCR-TV in Redding CA, 
it was so useful to the production folks they used it many times a day 
from '79 to mid 90's when it burnt to the ground, That's eons in a tv 
station control room where stuff is often replaced before its fully 
written off tax wise in 5 years. Fun times back then. Now I'm searching 
amazon for a pi-clone hat with a 6 pack of sata-iii sockets on it, and 
coming up MT.  Sniff...


In the other thread about the /dev/sdm test:

Creating file 39.h2w ... 1.98% -- 1.90 MB/s -- 257:11:32
but is taking a few bytes now and then.
[...]
$ ls -l
total 40627044
[...]
$ sudo f3probe --destructive --time-ops /dev/sdm
Bad news: The device `/dev/sdm' is a counterfeit of type limbo
Device geometry:
 *Usable* size: 59.15 GB (124050944 blocks)
Announced size: 1.91 TB (409600 blocks)


That's really barefaced.
How can the seller believe to get away with a problem which will show
already after a few dozen GB were written ?



Probe time: 2.07s


That's indeed a quick diagnosis. Congrats to the developers of f3probe.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

gene heskett wrote:
> my fading eyesight couldn't see
> the diffs between () and {} in a 6 point font.  I need a bigger, more
> legible font in t-bird.

That's why i propose to copy+paste problematic command lines.

Your mouse can read it, your mail client can send it, and we have
youngsters here of merely 60 years who will be glad to tell our
most senior regular why the lines don't work.

With some luck this creates nostalgic tangents about how the used features
evolved since the early 1980s.


In the other thread about the /dev/sdm test:
> Creating file 39.h2w ... 1.98% -- 1.90 MB/s -- 257:11:32
> but is taking a few bytes now and then.
> [...]
> $ ls -l
> total 40627044
> [...]
> $ sudo f3probe --destructive --time-ops /dev/sdm
> Bad news: The device `/dev/sdm' is a counterfeit of type limbo
> Device geometry:
> *Usable* size: 59.15 GB (124050944 blocks)
>Announced size: 1.91 TB (409600 blocks)

That's really barefaced.
How can the seller believe to get away with a problem which will show
already after a few dozen GB were written ?


> Probe time: 2.07s

That's indeed a quick diagnosis. Congrats to the developers of f3probe.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Unidentified subject!

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/24 05:39, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:

Is bash not actually bash these days? It is not doing for loops for me.


Come on Gene, be no sophie. Copy+paste your failing line here. :))

Alexander M. posted it a few days ago but my fading eyesight couldn't 
see the diffs between () and {} in a 6 point font.  I need a bigger, 
more legible font in t-bird. Or blow it up about 3x. Which doesn't 
stick, its gone with next msg.  G.


Thank Thomas.
[...]> Have a nice day :)


Thomas

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Stefan Monnier]

>> AFAIK the bogus 128TB drives do properly report such ridiculous sizes:
>> the reality only hits when you try to actually store that amount of
>> information on them.
>> [ I'm not sure how it works under the hood, but since SSDs store their
>>data "anywhere" in the flash, they can easily pretend to have any size
>>they want, and allocate the physical flash blocks only on-the-fly as
>>logical blocks are being written.
>>Also, some Flash controllers use compression, so if you store data
>>that compresses well, they can let you store a lot more than if you
>>store already compressed data.  ]
>> IOW, to really check, try to save 2TB of videos (or other already
>> compressed data), and then try and read it back.
>> 
> Sounds like a lawsuit to me. If I can get Alexanders script from a few days
> back to run.  Is bash not actually bash these days? It is not doing for
> loops for me.

As discussed in related threads, there's the `f3` package in Debian
designed specifically for that.
You can try `f3probe /dev/sdX` (or use `f3write` and `f3read` if you
prefer to test at the filesystem level rather than at the block level).


Stefan

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> Is bash not actually bash these days? It is not doing for loops for me.

Come on Gene, be no sophie. Copy+paste your failing line here. :))


IIRC the for-loop in question writes several copies of the same file.
( https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/02/msg00318.html )
Others already pointed out that this invites for firmware scams like
deduplication or silent overwriting of older data.

I would vote for a filesystem killer like
  shred -n 1 -s 204768K -v - | tee /dev/sdm1 | sha256sum
  dd if=/dev/sdm1 bs=32K count=6399 skip=32 | sha256sum

But shred(1) on Debian 11 refuses on "-" contrary to its documentation:
  shred: -: invalid file type
A non-existing file path causes "No such file or directory".


The filesystem killer aspect could be removed by creating large data files
in the readily partitioned and formatted filesystems of the disk.
(Replace "/dev/sdm1" by "/where/mounted/random_test_file" and reduce the
 numbers 204768K and bs=32K count=6399 to what you expect to
 fit into the filesystem. Like 20K and bs=32K count=6250.
 Ask df for storage capacities.)

But there needs to be a fast pseudo-random byte stream (which shred would
provide if i could talk it into writing to stdout) which you can split
for the device and for sha256sum.
I have an own weak-random generator, but shred beats it by a factor of 10
when writing to /dev/null.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Unidentified subject!

[gene heskett]

On 2/7/24 23:28, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Well the 2T memory everybody was curious about 3 weeks ago got here early.

 From dmesg after plugging one in:
[629240.916163] usb 1-2: new high-speed USB device number 39 using xhci_hcd
[629241.066221] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=048d,
idProduct=1234, bcdDevice= 2.00
[629241.066234] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2,
SerialNumber=3
[629241.066239] usb 1-2: Product: Disk 3.0
[629241.066242] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: USB
[629241.066246] usb 1-2: SerialNumber: 2697241127107725123
[629241.069485] usb-storage 1-2:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
[629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0
[629242.100738] scsi 37:0:0:0: Direct-Access  SSD 3.02.00
PQ: 0 ANSI: 4
[629242.100959] sd 37:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg13 type 0
[629242.101190] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] 409600 512-byte logical blocks: (2.10
TB/1.91 TiB)
[629242.101289] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Write Protect is off
[629242.101290] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Mode Sense: 03 00 00 00
[629242.101409] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] No Caching mode page found
[629242.101410] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Assuming drive cache: write through
[629242.103927]  sdm: sdm1
[629242.104047] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Attached SCSI disk
gene@coyote:

Looks like a reasonable facsimile of a 2T disk to me.


AFAIK the bogus 128TB drives do properly report such ridiculous sizes:
the reality only hits when you try to actually store that amount of
information on them.

[ I'm not sure how it works under the hood, but since SSDs store their
   data "anywhere" in the flash, they can easily pretend to have any size
   they want, and allocate the physical flash blocks only on-the-fly as
   logical blocks are being written.
   Also, some Flash controllers use compression, so if you store data
   that compresses well, they can let you store a lot more than if you
   store already compressed data.  ]

IOW, to really check, try to save 2TB of videos (or other already
compressed data), and then try and read it back.

Sounds like a lawsuit to me. If I can get Alexanders script from a few 
days back to run.  Is bash not actually bash these days? It is not doing 
for loops for me.


Thanks for the heads up, Stefan.


 Stefan

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Arno Lehmann]

Hi all,

Am 08.02.2024 um 21:38 schrieb Andy Smith:

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 05:40:54PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:

On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote:

I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
there again myself.


How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?


My own experience is that it's often harder to notice and diagnose -- 
because on top of the actual storage and its "native" interface such as 
SATA or NVMe/PCIe, you have the whole stack of USB things.


And misbehaving USB devices usually result in first working on the USB 
end -- try different port, port directly on mainboard, or a powered hub, 
watch out for native USB 3 or 3.0 Gen 1 -- we can see this on this 
mailing list, too.


Then, USB storage is usually a single device single, if it breaks, it's 
data is lost, whereas SATA/SAS/NVMe can more easily be integrated into 
redundancy providing systems.


On top of all that, my own, admittedly anecdotal, experience is that 
USB/Firewire-to-IDE/SATA adapters and their power supplies are more 
fragile than actual disks. Most of the external hard disks I ever used 
have been replaced because of their enclosures or power supplies failing.


So, I tend to agree with Andy, and I also don't notice any moving 
goalposts in his statements...



In my experience it happens more often and also brings with it
frequent issues of poor performance and other reliability issues
like just dropping off the USB bus. There is almost always a better
way.


For home users / small office environments, that leaves the problem of 
how to do backups -- USB drives are the most appealing storage system 
for such purposes, but also seem to be less reliable than the primary 
storage. What do you do? Throw more of the USB disks onto the problem?


Or is "public" cloud the solution?

Whatever you do, even purely personal storage requirements become a bit 
of a nightmare when you start thinking about how to make sure your 
photos and videos are around when your kids are grown up...



Cheers,

Arno


Thanks,
Andy



--
Arno Lehmann

IT-Service Lehmann
Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Richmond]

Charles Curley  writes:

> On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 18:02:36 -0500
> Stefan Monnier  wrote:
>
>> > Test it with Validrive.
>> > https://www.grc.com/validrive.htm  
>> 
>> Looks like proprietary software for Windows.
>
> badblocks, available in a Debian repo near you, might be a suitable
> replacement.

I am not sure badblocks would do the same thing.

"The drive appears to be the 1 or 2 terabyte drive you purchased. You
plug it into your computer and everything looks fine. You can even copy
files to the drive; as many as you want. And when you look at the
drive's contents the files are there. But what's insidious is that the
files' contents may have never been stored.  "

So you need to store a lot of data and then verify that it has written
with 'diff'.

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 08 Feb 2024 18:02:36 -0500
Stefan Monnier  wrote:

> > Test it with Validrive.
> > https://www.grc.com/validrive.htm  
> 
> Looks like proprietary software for Windows.

badblocks, available in a Debian repo near you, might be a suitable
replacement.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Stefan Monnier]

> Test it with Validrive.
> https://www.grc.com/validrive.htm

Looks like proprietary software for Windows.


Stefan

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Richmond]

gene heskett  writes:

> Well the 2T memory everybody was curious about 3 weeks ago got here early.
>
> From dmesg after plugging one in:
> [629240.916163] usb 1-2: new high-speed USB device number 39 using xhci_hcd
> [629241.066221] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=048d,
> idProduct=1234, bcdDevice= 2.00
> [629241.066234] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2,
> SerialNumber=3
> [629241.066239] usb 1-2: Product: Disk 3.0
> [629241.066242] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: USB
> [629241.066246] usb 1-2: SerialNumber: 2697241127107725123
> [629241.069485] usb-storage 1-2:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
> [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0
> [629242.100738] scsi 37:0:0:0: Direct-Access  SSD 3.0
> 2.00 PQ: 0 ANSI: 4
> [629242.100959] sd 37:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg13 type 0
> [629242.101190] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] 409600 512-byte logical blocks:
> (2.10 TB/1.91 TiB)
> [629242.101289] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Write Protect is off
> [629242.101290] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Mode Sense: 03 00 00 00
> [629242.101409] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] No Caching mode page found
> [629242.101410] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Assuming drive cache: write through
> [629242.103927]  sdm: sdm1
> [629242.104047] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Attached SCSI disk
> gene@coyote:
>
> Looks like a reasonable facsimile of a 2T disk to me.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

Test it with Validrive.

https://www.grc.com/validrive.htm

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/8/24 16:28, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:22:49PM -0500, Gremlin wrote:

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote:

I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.


That line was meant to read

 I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port.

Changing the goal post now are we.


Erm no, it was a simple mistaken repetition of the word "USB" that I
only noticed when I read it back. It would be clearly very difficult
to refuse to use any kind of USB device at all! I have been
consistently talking about storage devices.

You have been very clear that you do not agree though, so let's just
agree to disagree.

Thanks,
Andy



You back pedal really well don't you!  Where did you learn that?

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:22:49PM -0500, Gremlin wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.
> 
> That line was meant to read
> 
> I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port.
> 
> Changing the goal post now are we.

Erm no, it was a simple mistaken repetition of the word "USB" that I
only noticed when I read it back. It would be clearly very difficult
to refuse to use any kind of USB device at all! I have been
consistently talking about storage devices.

You have been very clear that you do not agree though, so let's just
agree to disagree.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/8/24 16:16, Andy Smith wrote:

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 03:56:19PM -0500, Gremlin wrote:

On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote:

I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy
to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be
an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I
generally wouldn't bother.


Why would it void the warranty?  I put it in the caddy


I mean the USB drives that come as a sealed unit that you can
sometimes find a lot cheaper than the same model SATA drive that is
actually inside them. Some people do enjoy taking those apart to get
the SATA drive out.

Thanks,
Andy



On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.

That line was meant to read

I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port.

Thanks,
Andy


Changing the goal post now are we.

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 04:00:01PM -0500, Gremlin wrote:
> I have been using USB attached HDDs and SSDs for 10 years now and
> have never had one unexpectedly go off line.  Your postings
> suggest you don't know what your talking about.

Okay then. Despite this uncharitable comment, I do still wish you
what I consider to be continued good fortune!

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 03:56:19PM -0500, Gremlin wrote:
> On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy
> > to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be
> > an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I
> > generally wouldn't bother.
> 
> Why would it void the warranty?  I put it in the caddy

I mean the USB drives that come as a sealed unit that you can
sometimes find a lot cheaper than the same model SATA drive that is
actually inside them. Some people do enjoy taking those apart to get
the SATA drive out.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/8/24 15:35, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 12:23:45AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote:

On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0


USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
computing.


Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached Storage)
instead of usb-storage driver?


No, I just mean I advise to never ever use storage that comes to you
via a USB port for anything you care about.

I might consider it okay for temporary shifting of data about, but I
would never use it as part of a permanent setup without fully
expecting one day to find it just not working. But then that is also
how I feel about any storage device. It's just worse when USB is
added to the mix.

I have been using USB attached HDDs and SSDs for 10 years now and have 
never had one unexpectedly go off line.  Your postings suggest you don't 
know what your talking about.

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/8/24 15:43, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 02:20:59PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger  wrote:

How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?


I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives,
SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's
and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.


I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.

I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy
to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be
an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I
generally wouldn't bother.


Why would it void the warranty?  I put it in the caddy



If I need directly attached storage I'd much rather explore options
like SAS and eSATA, or even networked storage, before I would ever
consider USB for a permanent installation.


You need to start thinking outside the box.

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 08:43:17PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.

That line was meant to read

I really do mean all forms of storage that come over a USB port.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 02:20:59PM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger  wrote:
> > How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?
> 
> I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives,
> SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's
> and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.

I really do mean all forms of USB that come over a USB port.

I wouldn't have much issue with taking a USB drive out of its caddy
to get the SATA drive from inside, except that it would have to be
an amazingly good deal to make it worth voiding the warranty, so I
generally wouldn't bother.

If I need directly attached storage I'd much rather explore options
like SAS and eSATA, or even networked storage, before I would ever
consider USB for a permanent installation.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 05:40:54PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
> > reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
> > there again myself.
> 
> How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?

In my experience it happens more often and also brings with it
frequent issues of poor performance and other reliability issues
like just dropping off the USB bus. There is almost always a better
way.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 12:23:45AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0
> > 
> > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
> > computing.
> 
> Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached Storage)
> instead of usb-storage driver?

No, I just mean I advise to never ever use storage that comes to you
via a USB port for anything you care about.

I might consider it okay for temporary shifting of data about, but I
would never use it as part of a permanent setup without fully
expecting one day to find it just not working. But then that is also
how I feel about any storage device. It's just worse when USB is
added to the mix.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ralph Aichinger  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
> > computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say
> > they use it all the time and it is fine.
>
> I am clearly in the latter camp. This mail is delivered via a Raspberry
> Pi 4 that has a 500G USB SSD. Before the Pi4 I used a Pi3 and a Pi2 (I
> think) with USB disks (first rotating, then SSD). Probably for 5 years
> or so. Never had a problem (unlike with the SD cards I used before, SD
> cards always died on me from to many writes after a few months).
>
> > They will keep saying that
> > until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt.
>
> This is the same with any hard disk or SSD. If you buy the most
> expensive "enterprise" disk, with SAS or whatever, it still can
> break on the next day, taking all your data with you.
>
> Actually with USB disks, sometimes you can remove the USB
> controller, replace it in case of breakage, giving you more
> or less the same reliability as any "normal" disk.
> I've never had USB controllers break, though, so I do not
> care. I just take backups as with any other disk.
>
> > I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
> > reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
> > there again myself.
>
> How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?

I may be mistaken, but I believe AS is talking about USB thumb drives,
SDcards and the like. I don't think he's talking about external SSD's
and NVME's over USB. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.

My experience with SDcards and thumb drives is along the lines of
AS's. I own a lot of dev boards (dating back to the early 2010's) for
testing, and I could go through a storage device, like an SDcard, in
about 6 months. But I would also add a swap file to the installation
because the dev boards were so resource constrained. You simply can't
run a C++ compiler on a Beagleboard with 256MB of RAM. The swap file,
even with a low swappiness, would eat up SDcards and thumb drives.

Jeff

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/02/2024 22:36, Andy Smith wrote:

On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0


USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
computing.


Do you mean that a proper backup drive should use uas (USB Attached 
Storage) instead of usb-storage driver?

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 15:36 +, Andy Smith wrote:
> USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
> computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say
> they use it all the time and it is fine. 

I am clearly in the latter camp. This mail is delivered via a Raspberry
Pi 4 that has a 500G USB SSD. Before the Pi4 I used a Pi3 and a Pi2 (I
think) with USB disks (first rotating, then SSD). Probably for 5 years
or so. Never had a problem (unlike with the SD cards I used before, SD
cards always died on me from to many writes after a few months).

> They will keep saying that
> until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt.

This is the same with any hard disk or SSD. If you buy the most
expensive "enterprise" disk, with SAS or whatever, it still can 
break on the next day, taking all your data with you. 

Actually with USB disks, sometimes you can remove the USB 
controller, replace it in case of breakage, giving you more
or less the same reliability as any "normal" disk.
I've never had USB controllers break, though, so I do not
care. I just take backups as with any other disk.

> I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
> reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
> there again myself.

How does a breaking USB disk differ from a breaking SATA disk?

/ralph

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 08, 2024 at 11:14:24AM -0500, Gremlin wrote:
> On 2/8/24 10:36, Andy Smith wrote:
> > USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
> > computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say
> > they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that
> > until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt.
> > 
> 
> LOL,  So my main desktop a raspberry pi 4 is not serious computing? Or is it
> that my name server, web server email server which is a raspberry pi 4 not
> serious computing?

Not in my opinion, no¹, but I don't mind at all if you don't agree
and I also wish you the best of ongoing luck!

Thanks,
Andy

¹ Of course, sometimes you just have a device that only has USB and
  there's no way around it. If I have to go there, I try to make it
  serious by preparing for the storage of those devices to just
  disappear one day and take steps to minimise the downtime lost to
  that.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Gremlin]

On 2/8/24 10:36, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0


USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say
they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that
until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt.



LOL,  So my main desktop a raspberry pi 4 is not serious computing? Or 
is it that my name server, web server email server which is a raspberry 
pi 4 not serious computing?


They both boot to USB SSDs and only have USB SSD drives, so they are not 
serious computing?  The desktop RPI has an NVME drive as the boot drive 
connected by you guessed it USB.




I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
there again myself.

Things I don't touch with a 3.048m barge pole: USB storage (Was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 03:30:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0

USB storage is for phones and cameras etc, not for serious
computing. Many people will disagree with that statement and say
they use it all the time and it is fine. They will keep saying that
until it isn't fine, and then they'll be in a world of hurt.

I learned not to go there a long time ago and have seen plenty of
reminders along the way from others' misfortunes to not ever go
there again myself.

> Looks like a reasonable facsimile of a 2T disk to me.

Good luck.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Stefan Monnier]

> Well the 2T memory everybody was curious about 3 weeks ago got here early.
>
> From dmesg after plugging one in:
> [629240.916163] usb 1-2: new high-speed USB device number 39 using xhci_hcd
> [629241.066221] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=048d,
> idProduct=1234, bcdDevice= 2.00
> [629241.066234] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2,
> SerialNumber=3
> [629241.066239] usb 1-2: Product: Disk 3.0
> [629241.066242] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: USB
> [629241.066246] usb 1-2: SerialNumber: 2697241127107725123
> [629241.069485] usb-storage 1-2:1.0: USB Mass Storage device detected
> [629241.074187] scsi host37: usb-storage 1-2:1.0
> [629242.100738] scsi 37:0:0:0: Direct-Access  SSD 3.02.00
> PQ: 0 ANSI: 4
> [629242.100959] sd 37:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg13 type 0
> [629242.101190] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] 409600 512-byte logical blocks: (2.10
> TB/1.91 TiB)
> [629242.101289] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Write Protect is off
> [629242.101290] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Mode Sense: 03 00 00 00
> [629242.101409] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] No Caching mode page found
> [629242.101410] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Assuming drive cache: write through
> [629242.103927]  sdm: sdm1
> [629242.104047] sd 37:0:0:0: [sdm] Attached SCSI disk
> gene@coyote:
>
> Looks like a reasonable facsimile of a 2T disk to me.

AFAIK the bogus 128TB drives do properly report such ridiculous sizes:
the reality only hits when you try to actually store that amount of
information on them.

[ I'm not sure how it works under the hood, but since SSDs store their
  data "anywhere" in the flash, they can easily pretend to have any size
  they want, and allocate the physical flash blocks only on-the-fly as
  logical blocks are being written.
  Also, some Flash controllers use compression, so if you store data
  that compresses well, they can let you store a lot more than if you
  store already compressed data.  ]

IOW, to really check, try to save 2TB of videos (or other already
compressed data), and then try and read it back.


Stefan

Re: Unidentified subject!

[songbird]

Dan Ritter wrote:
...
> You want to ignore the USB ports and focus on the attached
> devices. udev is the mechanism here.
>
> For example, in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-ups  I have:
>
> SUBSYSTEM=="usb", ATTR{idVendor}=="0764", ATTR{idProduct}=="0501", 
> SYMLINK+="ups0", GROUP="nut"
>
> Which means that /dev/ups0 will be assigned to the USB device
> that has an idVendor of 0764 and an idProduct of 0501, and be
> accessible by anyone in the group nut.
>
> So if you have a MIDI keyboard with idVendor 0499 (Yamaha) and 
> idProduct 1617 (PSR-E353 digital keyboard) then you could plug
> those numbers into a rule like the one above and whenever it was
> connected, it would appear at, say, "/dev/midikb0".
>
> SUBSYSTEM=="usb", ATTR{idVendor}=="0499", ATTR{idProduct}=="1617", 
> SYMLINK+="midikb0", GROUP="audio"
>
> lsusb (possibly with a -v) will help you find the currently
> attached devices and their numbers.
>
> Does that help?

  excellent reply thanks!


  songbird  (not the OP or in need of this, but very useful
 information anyways...  :)

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Reco]

Hi.

Mail headers are mangled, but:

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 07:45:26AM -0700, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> > And the problem that you're trying to solve by such "predictable" audio
> > devices is?
> 
> AUDIODEV=hw:0,0 play MY/m85.WAV

AUDIODEV=dmix:CARD=PCH,DEV=0 play MY/m85.WAV

Use "aplay -L" to get strings that are specific for your hardware.
The way I see it, there's no need for these "predictable audio devices
names", they are here already.

A viable alternative is to install and use pulseaudio, of course.

Reco

Re: DHCP failure (was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Floris]

Op Thu, 29 Sep 2016 01:18:02 +0200 schreef Dan Ritter  
:



On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 03:30:04PM -0700, hol...@cox.net wrote:

Clean install of deb8 (jessie)on my Thinkpad T4220i laptop. went well
except for the fact that the network configuration
with DCP failed.

I was given 3 options.
1) try it again. This was hope over experience.
2) configure manually. Great if I had the first inkling how. I'm a
complete neophyte when it
   comes to networking.
3) continue without configuring a network. The only one that would let
me continue the
   installation.

I have a functioning desktop pc so I compred some files w/ the laptop.

/etc/networks was identical as was /etc/network/interfaces (from what I
could see) and /etc/NetworkManager.

I looked at "man interfaces" but quickly got in over my head.

Multiple installs resulted in the same failure.


Normally, you would have a DHCP server, perhaps included in your
router, which would hand out local IP addresses.

Possible cause 1: you don't.

Possible cause 2: you do, but it is full or configured not to
give this machine an IP.

Most likely cause: underlying networking is not working right.

Ethernet or wifi?

What does "ip l" tell you? "ip a", too.

-dsr-



If it is wifi, I think you need the firmware-iwlwifi package from non-free  
for this laptop

https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi

Floris

DHCP failure (was Re: Unidentified subject!)

[Dan Ritter]

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 03:30:04PM -0700, hol...@cox.net wrote:
> Clean install of deb8 (jessie)on my Thinkpad T4220i laptop. went well
> except for the fact that the network configuration
> with DCP failed.
> 
> I was given 3 options.
> 1) try it again. This was hope over experience.
> 2) configure manually. Great if I had the first inkling how. I'm a
> complete neophyte when it
>comes to networking.
> 3) continue without configuring a network. The only one that would let
> me continue the
>installation.
> 
> I have a functioning desktop pc so I compred some files w/ the laptop.
> 
> /etc/networks was identical as was /etc/network/interfaces (from what I
> could see) and /etc/NetworkManager.
> 
> I looked at "man interfaces" but quickly got in over my head.
> 
> Multiple installs resulted in the same failure.

Normally, you would have a DHCP server, perhaps included in your
router, which would hand out local IP addresses.

Possible cause 1: you don't. 

Possible cause 2: you do, but it is full or configured not to
give this machine an IP.

Most likely cause: underlying networking is not working right.

Ethernet or wifi?

What does "ip l" tell you? "ip a", too.

-dsr-

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Miguel Matos]

El día 18 de julio de 2013 10:58,  kyd.is.b...@gmail.com escribió:
 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:28:04 -0300
 From: pizta...@crow.satelite.com
 To: debian-user-spanish@lists.debian.org
 Subject: Re: debian 7 erro al actualizar alquitar google chrome
 Message-ID: 20130718152804.ga16...@crow.satelite.com
 References: fbe7ba6184dc0d28c413c27ac1de6...@ida.cu
  pan.2013.07.18.14.03...@gmail.com
  ccfcacc67a9053e48398a446d44d8...@ida.cu
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
 Content-Disposition: inline
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
 In-Reply-To: ccfcacc67a9053e48398a446d44d8...@ida.cu
 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

 On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:15:09AM -0400, l...@ida.cu wrote:
 On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:03:51 + (UTC), Camaleón wrote:
  El Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:03:48 -0400, luis escribió:
 
  Hola a todos había instalado google chrome con dpkg-i
  google_chrome_amd64.deb e instaló bien
 
  Pero finalmente lo quité.
 
  ¿No te gustó? :-?
 
  Cuando voy actualizar con apt-get update me da este error después de
  haber desinstalado googel chrome:
 
  # apt-get update
  Des:1 http://dl.google.com stable Release.gpg [1 540 B]
  Des:2 http://dl.google.com stable Release [1 540 B]
  Ign http://dl.google.com stable Release E: Error de GPG:
  http://dl.google.com stable Release: Las siguientes firms fueron
  inválidas: NODATA 1 NODATA 2
 
  Alguna idea para resolverlo ??
 
  Lo que te comenta Miguel, ya que seguramente tengas en el archivo
  /etc/
  apt/sources.list los repositorios de Google (los añade
  automáticamente
  tras instalar alguno de sus programas), tendrás que eliminar esas
  líneas
  y ejecutar después un apt-get update.
 
  Saludos,
 
  --
  Camaleón

 Hola a todos, no en el sources.list no tengo ninguna línea que haga
 referencia al googlechrome

 le doy apt-get update y sigue saliento esto:

 # apt-get update
 Des:1 http://dl.google.com stable Release.gpg [1 540 B]
 Des:2 http://dl.google.com stable Release [1 540 B]
 Ign http://dl.google.com stable Release
 E: Error de GPG: http://dl.google.com stable Release: Las siguientes
 firms fueron inválidas: NODATA 1 NODATA 2

 Realmente no s eue hacer ? no puedo creer que tenga que reinstalar ?
 alguna solución debe existir pero no se porque pide eso de GPG no se que
 es eso

 alguna idea ??

 Agradezco todo el apoyo que me dan pero aún sigo igual

 saludos a todos


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 Pastea por aca el resultado de  :

 ls /etc/apt/
 cat /etc/apt/source.list


Adicionalmente, pasa la salida de un archivo ubicado en el directorio
/etc/apt/sources.list.d, allí seguramente esté guardada tanto la clave
del Google Chrome como de los GPG que busca (yo tengo un
google-chrome.list y un pgdg.list). Y hay un tercer archivo:
sources.list.save, éste es el último backup que hace el sistema
operativo del anterior.

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2013-06-23 at 08:55 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
 On 2013-06-23 08:48, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 
  On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 23:36 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
   If you have important data on the laptop, you should plug in an
   external drive and dd the entire laptop drive to an image file on the
   external drive (which must have at least as much free space as the
   laptop drive's size).
  A very good advice, so the OP can try to recover it as often as needed,
  by dd'ing it back.
 
 dd'ing an alive system would drive to filesystem inconsistencies.
 A running system, with running applications, I mean.
 I wouldnt trust that.

It's not running! The OP should dd the whole drive that neither does
start Linux nor Windows to a backup drive and then the OP could try to
repair
1. the bootloader
2. if needed the partition table/partitions

If this should damage more, then it should repair, it would be possible
to recover the original broken drive, with it's original broken data and
to try recovering again.

This has to be done with e.g. a live CD including at least GParted and
TestDisk, e.g. www.partedmagic.com . GParted is needed assumed the
recovering should work, to install Linux parallel to Windows.

Without a time machine the OP has to close the barn door after the horse
has escaped ;)!

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Gary Dale]

On 22/06/13 04:38 PM, Lagun Adeshina wrote:

Hi Guys,
I need your help.

1. I set out to install Debian from Windows 7

2. I downloaded the win 32 Debian Installer and went through the procedures

3. On reaching the partitioning option I got a little confused I had
used the RAID5 Partition then

4. I went on to stop the installing

5. I could not restart either my window 7 nor continue the installing

6. My computer is a emachine 732 running initially on windows 7

7. Help me please



This could be that the Windows 7 partition was corrupted. I always 
advise people to do the partitioning outside of the installation when 
doing a dual-boot. The reason is that Windows file systems are touchy 
and probably need to be checked after being resized.


The fact that you seem to have a RAID 5 array, which I'm guessing is 
using the SATA RAID drivers for Windows, makes things more complicated.


However, we need more information on what exactly your setup is, where 
the RAID 5 comes in, and what happens when you try to boot.



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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Lagun Adeshina]

All I did was try to install Debian 7 and the RAID5 was just some option that 
came up during partitioning.
I read about it and understood it was supposed to keep whole old stuff sale. 
That was my understanding and I'm left with no OS neither Debian nor win7


 From: Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 21:47
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
 

On 22/06/13 04:38 PM, Lagun Adeshina wrote:
 Hi Guys,
 I need your help.

 1. I set out to install Debian from Windows 7

 2. I downloaded the win 32 Debian Installer and went through the procedures

 3. On reaching the partitioning option I got a little confused I had
 used the RAID5 Partition then

 4. I went on to stop the installing

 5. I could not restart either my window 7 nor continue the installing

 6. My computer is a emachine 732 running initially on windows 7

 7. Help me please


This could be that the Windows 7 partition was corrupted. I always 
advise people to do the partitioning outside of the installation when 
doing a dual-boot. The reason is that Windows file systems are touchy 
and probably need to be checked after being resized.

The fact that you seem to have a RAID 5 array, which I'm guessing is 
using the SATA RAID drivers for Windows, makes things more complicated.

However, we need more information on what exactly your setup is, where 
the RAID 5 comes in, and what happens when you try to boot.


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Gary Dale]

On 22/06/13 08:32 PM, Lagun Adeshina wrote:

 *From:* Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com
 *To:* debian-user@lists.debian.org
 *Cc:* debian-user@lists.debian.org
 *Sent:* Saturday, 22 June 2013, 21:47
 *Subject:* Re: Unidentified subject!

 On 22/06/13 04:38 PM, Lagun Adeshina wrote:
Hi Guys,
I need your help.
  
1. I set out to install Debian from Windows 7
  
2. I downloaded the win 32 Debian Installer and went through the
 procedures
  
3. On reaching the partitioning option I got a little confused I had
used the RAID5 Partition then
  
4. I went on to stop the installing
  
5. I could not restart either my window 7 nor continue the installing
  
6. My computer is a emachine 732 running initially on windows 7
  
7. Help me please


 This could be that the Windows 7 partition was corrupted. I always
 advise people to do the partitioning outside of the installation when
 doing a dual-boot. The reason is that Windows file systems are touchy
 and probably need to be checked after being resized.

 The fact that you seem to have a RAID 5 array, which I'm guessing is
 using the SATA RAID drivers for Windows, makes things more complicated.

 However, we need more information on what exactly your setup is, where
 the RAID 5 comes in, and what happens when you try to boot.





All I did was try to install Debian 7 and the RAID5 was just some option
that came up during partitioning.
I read about it and understood it was supposed to keep whole old stuff
sale. That was my understanding and I'm left with no OS neither Debian
nor win7



I have no idea how you managed to get a RAID 5 option on a laptop. 
However, I suppose it is possible. Anyway, I doubt that Windows would 
have installed on it. It sounds like you've messed up the partitioning. 
I suggest you boot from parted magic (http://partedmagic.com/) and try 
to recover the original partitioning. (It's also possible that it is 
intact and it's just the Windows bootloader that has been corrupted. 
Check on a Windows site to find out to fix a corrupted boot loader.)


If you have important data on the laptop, you should plug in an external 
drive and dd the entire laptop drive to an image file on the external 
drive (which must have at least as much free space as the laptop drive's 
size).


Once you have a copy of the drive, try to recover the old partition 
information so you can mount the drive and copy the files off of it onto 
some other medium.


Only then should you try to get Windows to boot again.

Warning: you've messed up your system and shouldn't try to recover it 
unless you feel comfortable doing so. Otherwise, find someone who knows 
how to do this to do it for you. Recovering important files is easy to 
mess up and the techs at the big box stores frequently don't understand 
the process.


Linux setup shouldn't cause the symptoms you described but it also 
shouldn't have offered a RAID 5 option when you only have one drive in 
your laptop. It is also possible that you ignored the instructions to 
make sure your Windows partition is clean before resizing it to make 
room for Linux.



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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2013-06-23 at 01:32 +0100, Lagun Adeshina wrote:
 All I did was try to install Debian 7 and the RAID5 was just some
 option that came up during partitioning.
 I read about it and understood it was supposed to keep whole old stuff
 sale. That was my understanding and I'm left with no OS neither Debian
 nor win7


If you should have good luck, the data still might be there, you perhaps
need to recover the original partition table/partition(s).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestDisk#Partition_recovery

Since I don't know enough about Windows, you should _not_ follow my
advice directly, but wait until somebody does confirm that this is ok,
resp. not ok.

You didn't backup everything, before you tried to install Windows?

If recovering should work, we could explain how to backup the partition
table. I'm not sure if backing up a Windows is really safe.

Regards,
Ralf



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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 23:36 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
 If you have important data on the laptop, you should plug in an
 external drive and dd the entire laptop drive to an image file on the
 external drive (which must have at least as much free space as the
 laptop drive's size).

A very good advice, so the OP can try to recover it as often as needed,
by dd'ing it back.



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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Mihamina Rakotomandimby]

On 2013-06-23 08:48, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 23:36 -0400, Gary Dale wrote:

If you have important data on the laptop, you should plug in an
external drive and dd the entire laptop drive to an image file on the
external drive (which must have at least as much free space as the
laptop drive's size).

A very good advice, so the OP can try to recover it as often as needed,
by dd'ing it back.


dd'ing an alive system would drive to filesystem inconsistencies.
A running system, with running applications, I mean.
I wouldnt trust that.

--
RMA.

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Sébastien NOBILI]

Le samedi 08 juin 2013 à 18:09, fred a écrit :
 Bonjour,

Bonjour,

 j'ai quelques difficultés avec la correction d'orthographe sous mutt.

Pas d'idée quant à ton problème puisque je n'utilise pas la correction
orthographique de mutt.

Une autre solution pour arriver au même résultat, tu peux gérer ça dans
l'éditeur (j'utilise VIM qui gère très bien l'orthographe).

Seb

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[juke]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:44:26AM +0100, Gaëtan PERRIER wrote:
 
 Dans le cas présent ce n'est pas un logiciel qui est non maintenu mais une
 version du dit logiciel. Ça fait une grande différence.

C'est difficile avec du logiciel libre de definir un logiciel non maintenu,
dans le meilleur des cas on sait definir « non maintenu par l'auteur original »

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[juke]

Bonjour

Que devons nous faire ? Enlever iceweasel de debian ? 

Julien.

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[caleb KHM]

On 11/03/2013 10:15, j...@free.fr wrote:

Bonjour

Que devons nous faire ? Enlever iceweasel de debian ?

Julien.

   
Oui, moi je propose que iceweasle soit enlevé et Mozilla firefow et 
Mozilla thunderbird soit adoptés.


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[juke]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:16:35AM +, caleb KHM wrote:
 Oui, moi je propose que iceweasle soit enlevé et Mozilla firefow et
 Mozilla thunderbird soit adoptés.

Pourquoi ? Devons nous aussi retirer tout les logiciels non maintenus ? Comment
definissons nous le non maintenu pour un logiciel libre ? sur lequel il n'y a
pas eu de commit depuis x temps ?  

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Sébastien NOBILI]

Le lundi 11 mars 2013 à 10:16, caleb KHM a écrit :
 On 11/03/2013 10:15, j...@free.fr wrote:
 Que devons nous faire ? Enlever iceweasel de debian ?
 
 Oui, moi je propose que iceweasle soit enlevé et Mozilla firefow et
 Mozilla thunderbird soit adoptés.

Ça ne résoudra rien. Qu'il s'agisse de Firefox ou d'Iceweasel, il faudra de
toute façon des gens, du temps et des compétences pour les maintenir.

De plus, Firefox et Thunderbird violent le premier point du contrat social
(http://www.debian.org/social_contract).

Seb

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[caleb KHM]

On 11/03/2013 10:54, Sébastien NOBILI wrote:

Le lundi 11 mars 2013 à 10:16, caleb KHM a écrit :
   

On 11/03/2013 10:15, j...@free.fr wrote:
 

Que devons nous faire ? Enlever iceweasel de debian ?

   

Oui, moi je propose que iceweasle soit enlevé et Mozilla firefow et
Mozilla thunderbird soit adoptés.
 

Ça ne résoudra rien. Qu'il s'agisse de Firefox ou d'Iceweasel, il faudra de
toute façon des gens, du temps et des compétences pour les maintenir.

De plus, Firefox et Thunderbird violent le premier point du contrat social
(http://www.debian.org/social_contract).

Seb

   
Il faudra bien faire quelquechose: pourquoi ne pas faire un appel 
candidature aux volotaires


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[stephane . gargoly]

Bonjour à tous les utilisateurs et développeurs de Debian :

Dans son message du 10/03/13 à 18:56, Seb a écrit :
 De plus, Firefox et Thunderbird violent le premier point du contrat social
 (http://www.debian.org/social_contract).

Exact, ce sont les nom et logo de chaque produit Mozilla qui posent problème.

Cordialement et à bientôt,

Stéphane.



Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous tente ?
Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Gaëtan PERRIER]

Le Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:40:02 +0100
j...@free.fr a écrit:

 On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:16:35AM +, caleb KHM wrote:
  Oui, moi je propose que iceweasle soit enlevé et Mozilla firefow et
  Mozilla thunderbird soit adoptés.
 
 Pourquoi ? Devons nous aussi retirer tout les logiciels non maintenus ?
 Comment definissons nous le non maintenu pour un logiciel libre ? sur lequel
 il n'y a pas eu de commit depuis x temps ?  
 

Dans le cas présent ce n'est pas un logiciel qui est non maintenu mais une
version du dit logiciel. Ça fait une grande différence.
Après il peut y avoir des logiciels non maintenus parce qu'ils ne nécessitent
pas de maintenance ...

Gaëtan

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Gaëtan PERRIER]

Mouais mais ça pose quand même pas mal de problèmes. Par exemple si
on prend iceweasel qui lors du début du freeze était en version 10 ESR. Vous
me direz c'est une version ESR donc support à long terme. Oui sauf que le
support des ESR est de 1 an et qu'il s'est terminé en février je crois. L'ESR
actuelle est la 17. Debian stable va donc sortir avec une version d'iceweasel
dépassée et non supportée par les dév mozilla. Vu les problèmes réguliers de
sécurité qu'il y a avec les navigateurs je me pose des questions sur la
pertinence du modèle Debian. Il est pertinent quand le freeze ne dure pas trop
longtemps mais quand il dure plus d'un an ...

Gaëtan

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Sébastien NOBILI]

Bonsoir,

Le dimanche 10 mars 2013 à 18:57, stephane.garg...@laposte.net a écrit :
 Et je ne pense pas que, pour leur crédibilité, les Développeurs (et autres 
 Responsables) Debian aient la naïveté (et encore moins l'inconscience) de 
 recommander Stable à tous ceux (administrateurs de serveur ou propriétaire 
 d'un ordinateur personnel) qui privilègient les critères (que je viens de 
 citer dans le paragraphe précédent) pour choisir une distribution basée sur 
 GNU/Linux s'il y a un quelconque doute concernant les qualités normalement 
 attribués à Stable (du moins par rapport à Unstable et à Testing). :-|

Ce n'est malheureusement pas le cas, étant données :
- la rapidité d'évolution de certains projets amont (les navigateurs sont un
  bon exemple),
- la complexité des interdépendances.

Les développeurs font au mieux, ce qui ne retire rien à leur crédibilité :
http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/i386/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#browser-security

Seb

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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Camaleón]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 18:05:12 +0300, David Baron wrote:

 Aren't we all sick of seeing this?

Well, is a bit annoying, yes.

 The listings with the messed up headers are next to useless. The only
 way to get sane headers is to post on-line, I suppose.
 
 Someone in the Debian universe has to be able to fix this list!

Known issue (if you mean the digest problem). You may be interested in 
reading:

why so many 'Unidentified subject!' in debian-user-digest?
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2012/06/thrd5.html#02137

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Lisi]

On Monday 03 September 2012 16:05:12 David Baron wrote:
 Aren't we all sick of seeing this?
 The listings with the messed up headers are next to useless.
 The only way to get sane headers is to post on-line, I suppose.

 Someone in the Debian universe has to be able to fix this list!

I have no problems (using KMail off-line via POP3): headers are fine and the 
list does not need fixing.  Are you perhaps referring to the digest?  I 
gather that there is a problem with that.  If so, the solution is simple:  
don't use the digest.  I gather Gmane works well for those that don't want 
the large number of emails on their systems.

Lisi


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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 18:05 +0300, David Baron wrote:
 Aren't we all sick of seeing this?
 The listings with the messed up headers are next to useless.
 The only way to get sane headers is to post on-line, I suppose.
 
 Someone in the Debian universe has to be able to fix this list!

I guess this still is Digest?!

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Ralf Mardorf]

At least I receive digest with the emails headers in the wrong position,
so the receiver, subject and Reference get lost.
 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 08:30:02 +0200
is the complete information Evolution gets, so if I would reply it would
be
On Sun, 2012-05-06 at 08:30 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:

This is how at least I receive digest for the last days now (it's
intended that the mail isn't cut, to show you what happens):

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 08:30:02 +0200

05.05.2012 22:23, Paul Johnson kirjoitti:
 On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 12:08 PM, David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il
 wrote:
 These are really getting annoying.
 
 Is this a problem with the list server or what?
 
 Messages with unidentified subjects?  Means someone sent the list
 mail without a subject line.  Otherwise, you're going to need to be
 more specific.
 
 

He means that that error comes when replying to digest, if  understood
the previous discussion earlier.

-- 
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Key fingerprint = 24BC 1573 B8EE D666 D10A  AA65 4DB5 3CFE 82A4 6728
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Sender: Mika Suomalainen s.mik...@gmail.com
Message-ID: 4fa58e08.1010...@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 23:31:04 +0300
From: Mika Suomalainen mika.henrik.mai...@hotmail.com
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To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject:  Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]
References: 20120505131629.808b3...@bendel.debian.org
201205052208.05159.d_ba...@012.net.il
CAMPM96oMC7RGghxKrOfNBksHKXw72Zp_huuD1Z2rO0XQ=9k...@mail.gmail.com
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Re: Unidentified subject!

[David Baron]

Note that this posting has a normal subject, i.e. Re: Unidentified subject!

If it does not appear thus, then the problem is somewhere in lists.debian.org. 
Almost all, but not all, messages recently have subject like

Unidentified subject!   [ ]
 in the topics list and

Unidentified subect!
()

in the Encapsulated message.

(I believe that more than the usually shown headers appear at the end of the 
message body.)

This is very annoying and without topics, the digest in nigh impossible to 
use!

Re: Unidentified subject!

[Mika Suomalainen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

06.05.2012 18:26, David Baron kirjoitti:
 Note that this posting has a normal subject, i.e. Re:
 Unidentified subject!
 
 
 
 If it does not appear thus, then the problem is somewhere in 
 lists.debian.org. Almost all, but not all, messages recently have 
 subject like
 
 
 
 Unidentified subject! [ ]
 
 in the topics list and
 
 
 
 Unidentified subect!
 
 ()
 
 
 
 in the Encapsulated message.
 
 
 
 (I believe that more than the usually shown headers appear at the
 end of the message body.)
 
 
 
 This is very annoying and without topics, the digest in nigh
 impossible to use!
 

Please don't use HTML on this list. Your message is with very small
font and has very many spaces as you can probably see from above where
your message is quoted. See also http://mkaysi.github.com/HTML.html .

- -- 
Mika Suomalainen
gpg --keyserver pool.sks-keyservers.net --recv-keys 4DB53CFE82A46728
Key fingerprint = 24BC 1573 B8EE D666 D10A  AA65 4DB5 3CFE 82A4 6728
http://mkaysi.github.com/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[David Baron]

These are really getting annoying.

Is this a problem with the list server or what?

Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 12:08 PM, David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il wrote:
 These are really getting annoying.

 Is this a problem with the list server or what?

Messages with unidentified subjects?  Means someone sent the list mail
without a subject line.  Otherwise, you're going to need to be more
specific.


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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2012-05-05 at 21:51 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:
 On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 12:08 PM, David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il wrote:
  These are really getting annoying.
 
  Is this a problem with the list server or what?
 
 Messages with unidentified subjects?  Means someone sent the list mail
 without a subject line.  Otherwise, you're going to need to be more
 specific.

No, the headers of the mails for the digest are at the bottom, they are
part of the mail body. Digest is broken at the moment.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Unidentified subject! [ ]

[Mika Suomalainen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

05.05.2012 22:23, Paul Johnson kirjoitti:
 On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 12:08 PM, David Baron d_ba...@012.net.il
 wrote:
 These are really getting annoying.
 
 Is this a problem with the list server or what?
 
 Messages with unidentified subjects?  Means someone sent the list
 mail without a subject line.  Otherwise, you're going to need to be
 more specific.
 
 

He means that that error comes when replying to digest, if  understood
the previous discussion earlier.

- -- 
Mika Suomalainen
gpg --keyserver pool.sks-keyservers.net --recv-keys 4DB53CFE82A46728
Key fingerprint = 24BC 1573 B8EE D666 D10A  AA65 4DB5 3CFE 82A4 6728
http://mkaysi.github.com/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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RAM from the stonagae - Was: Re: Unidentified subject! ;)

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 08:24 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:
 Heh! Coincidentally, I was looking through my old chip box last night to 
 see if I had a 6502 (I did), and found a HM6116LP-2 and a couple of 
 HY62256LP-10 chips :-)

You know this old reverb? It's full of old RAM, we call it
Weltraumheizung (translated: cosmic space heater) in Germany, probably
a bad translation, perhaps it's named space heater in other countries:
http://www.hestudiotechnik.de/image/outboard/2008/emt250.jpg

- Ralf




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Re: Unidentified subject! -- hope this will be fixed soo

[Ralf Mardorf]

*chuckle*
Camaleón you're right, I switched from Thunderbird and other Mozilla
mailers to Evolution, because it's easier to share mails between several
installs.


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Re: Unidentified subject! -- hope this will be fixed soo

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 04 May 2012 18:31:09 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

No, the Subject issue is still not solved and what's worst, you e-mails 
come with bad References/In-Reply-To so they are kept unthreaded:

***
References: 1336148525.3899.10.camel@precise
In-Reply-To: 1336148525.3899.10.camel@precise
***

As I already said some time ago, a digest format is not good for 
replying but reading messages unless you have a capable MUA or add by 
yourself the required header fields.

 *chuckle*
 Camaleón you're right, I switched from Thunderbird and other Mozilla
 mailers to Evolution, because it's easier to share mails between several
 installs.

I don't share that feeling.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 19:34 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:
 On Fri, 04 May 2012 10:21:41 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 
  I don't have the time to read all mails at the moment. Is this issue
  already known:
  
  On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 08:24 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:
  debian-user-digest Digest  Volume 2012 : Issue 718
  
  Today's Topics:
  Unidentified subject! [  ] 
  Unidentified subject! [  ] 
  Unidentified subject! [  ]   
  Unidentified subject! [  ] 
  Unidentified subject! [  ] 
  Unidentified subject! [  ]
  
  The headers of the mails are at the bottoms of the emails bodies.
 
 I don't use digest but that sounds like something is messed up.
 
 You can contact the mailing list admins/manintainers as stated here:
 
 http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.en.html#maintenance
 
 Greetings,

Done :).



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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 19:34 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:
 On Fri, 04 May 2012 18:31:09 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 
 No, the Subject issue is still not solved and what's worst, you e-mails 
 come with bad References/In-Reply-To so they are kept unthreaded:
 
 ***
 References: 1336148525.3899.10.camel@precise
 In-Reply-To: 1336148525.3899.10.camel@precise
 ***
 
 As I already said some time ago, a digest format is not good for 
 replying but reading messages unless you have a capable MUA or add by 
 yourself the required header fields.

Digest seems to be an issue for all mailing lists. I'll reconsider to
re-subscribe to normal mailing instead of the digest for this list.

I won't re-subscribe now.

Pardon, Ralf


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 04 May 2012 19:41:33 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

 On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 19:34 +0200, an unknown sender wrote:

 As I already said some time ago, a digest format is not good for
 replying but reading messages unless you have a capable MUA or add by
 yourself the required header fields.
 
 Digest seems to be an issue for all mailing lists. 

Yes, because a digest is not aimed to be replied but for archiving 
purposes.

 I'll reconsider to re-subscribe to normal mailing instead of the
 digest for this list.
 
 I won't re-subscribe now.
 
 Pardon, Ralf

And why not using Gmane from your Evo?

You don't need to subcribe to the list (so you wont't receive any e-
mails) but you still can post in a most suitable fashion.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Camaleón]

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:28:26 -0800, peasthope wrote:

 In-Reply-To=171057409.40993.30490@cantor.invalid References:
 171057407.61445.51762@cantor.invalid
 20120201072109.GE10895@think.nuvreauspam
 171057409.40993.30490@cantor.invalid Subject: Re: Re (6):
 /usr/lib/mutt/mailto-mutt
 
 This copy should have a subject.

***
Subject: Unidentified subject!
***

Yes, it has. But is not very illuminating ;-P

 * From: peasth...@shaw.ca
 * Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:00:33 -0800
 ... for the mailing list server to handle replies ...
 
 Badly chosen words cause ambiguity.  This would have been better.
 
 ... there is another way for the mailing list server to help create
 replies ...

And to properly keep messages threaded.

This message is completely borked. What's going on with your MUA, or are 
you running some tests?

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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(OT-Digests) Re: Unidentified subject!

[Camaleón]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:27:19 -0800, peasthope wrote:

 * In-reply-to: 20111220205521.GJ3296@think.nuvreauspam *
References:
 171057234.68576.57886@heaviside.invalid
 20111219184739.ge...@hysteria.proulx.com
 171057235.49702.39796@heaviside.invalid
 20111219222419.ga22...@hysteria.proulx.com
 20111220205521.GJ3296@think.nuvreauspam Subject: Re (3): automating
 execution of script.

(...)

Please, for those who receive the mailing list messages by using a 
digest style consider that when you post/reply to any of the messages 
the thread is completely broken and unreferenced unless you manually make 
some adjustments to keep the things in order.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Camaleón]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:08:29 +0400, Анатолий wrote:

 Both:
 http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/i386/iso-cd/debian-testing-i386-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso
  

 http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso
  ^

 Don't now about other architectures.

Those links point specifically to 1386 and amd64 ISO image files, they 
know nothing about other archs.

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/
 
 Xfce/LXDE and more are missing on the ISO images. 

I don't understand this. They are the first CD images for XFCE and LXDE 
so, what are they missing exactly, the whole DEs? :-?

 Installer doesn't offer a choice DE.

If you mean there is no way to install XFCE and/or LXDE from there, then 
report it :-)

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[Lisi]

On Friday 12 August 2011 22:30:40 gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:
 From Camaleón's comment, it sounds like using a wireless network to do an
 install is generally a problem, has anyone had success with a wireless
 install? I'm worried if I ever need to reinstall when I'm not in my home,
 it would not work. I don't know if I could get a wired network port away
 from home.

When your system is set up to your satisfaction, take a copy (e.g. with 
Clonezilla).  Then, if you need to reinstall, just reinstall form that.

Lisi


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com]

Clonezilla looks interesting I wasn't aware of that, thanks

I could also get around the problem by planning ahead and copy a fairly 
complete 
set of deb files from the fully configured system to a memory stick. But that 
method and clonezilla assume you're reinstalling the same release of debian on 
the same hardware.

At one point, I installed the system with only the first CD and accidentally 
didn't configure apt to pull anything from the network. I was ticked that I 
skipped over it because I wasn't paying attention, so I didn't think to check 
if 
it had all the tools to setup wireless networking. I might try that again later 
just see. I blew it away and setup a system using the wired NIC then switched 
to 
wireless later, which didn't require any rigmarole at all. I seem to remember 
it 
being a pain getting the system to automatically use the wireless when I last 
did this (a year or so ago, most likely during lenny's reign), but it worked 
perfectly this time. I'm messing with the 3D acceleration currently. Once I get 
that worked out I'll see if the first CD has enough packages to get the 
wireless 
working.




- Original Message 
From: Lisi lisi.re...@gmail.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sat, August 13, 2011 3:21:17 AM
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

On Friday 12 August 2011 22:30:40 gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:
 From Camaleón's comment, it sounds like using a wireless network to do an
 install is generally a problem, has anyone had success with a wireless
 install? I'm worried if I ever need to reinstall when I'm not in my home,
 it would not work. I don't know if I could get a wired network port away
 from home.

When your system is set up to your satisfaction, take a copy (e.g. with 
Clonezilla).  Then, if you need to reinstall, just reinstall form that.

Lisi


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:29:25 -0700, gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Sorry, you're right that was the wired interface, I must have cut n
 pasted the wrong line, my wireless is:
 
 0c:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 3945ABG
 [Golan] Network Connection (rev 02)

Ah, that makes more sense :-)

 I'm sorry to hear the installer only supports WEP. That would make it
 hard for anyone without a wired connection.

(...)

That's what the installer manual says:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.html.en#network-cards

While I agree that having only the WEP option for the installer is a bit 
limited, at least is better than none. Anyway, I would not think in 
installing an OS while sitting on the bus stop or in a place where I 
can't control/know the network status... again, installing an OS is not 
like fetching a bunch of apps for your on-the-go mobile device :-)

Besides, setting up a wireless adapter can be hard. I mean you can face 
many errors that are not so obvious to debug and installer is not the 
best place from where to start debugging your wifi problems because your 
resources here are very restricted.

For those without a wired connection available, installing entirely from 
CD/DVD (or USB) is another option.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:30:40 -0700, gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I started another install, had the same problem not detecting my WPA
 network. It still couldn't detect either of the two unprotected
 networks, even when I specified their ESSIDs.

WPA won't work. WEP encrypted network should, unless they have additional 
security messaures (like MAC filters). Can you successfully connect to 
those WEP APs from a LiveCD on the laptop you are trying to install?

 Pulled from the syslog, here you see it finding the firmware:

(...)

Loading the firmware is the first step for setting up your wifi. There 
can be still lots of problems after that...
 
 Aug 12 20:50:02 kernel: [   85.368183] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::assoc
 
 The last 6 lines above repeated at least a dozen times in the syslog.
 
 then later when I'm trying the different networks:

(...)

 Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: has been called with 
 an unknown param: leasefail
 Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
 reopening socket

(...)

 The first six lines above repeated about a dozen times, don't know if
 that's related to the other repeating lines earlier.

From a full installed system, you have more margin to debug this, like 
scanning for visible APs using iw but here your options are very 
limited.
 
 From Camaleón's comment, it sounds like using a wireless network to do
 an install is generally a problem, has anyone had success with a
 wireless install? I'm worried if I ever need to reinstall when I'm not
 in my home, it would not work. I don't know if I could get a wired
 network port away from home.

It does not have to be a problem, but I would avoid it as much as I can 
because a wifi link can go down or break very easily and there are no 
tools for monitor the quality of the wifi link from the installer. If you 
can install from DVD or USB, I would go that way.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Camaleón]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 06:13:12 -0700, gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I'm trying to do a fresh install of 6.0.2.1, but there is a glitch
 bringing up the wireless network on my 1420N Inspiron laptop. It uses
 the iwl3945 driver:
 
 09:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5906M Fast
 Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02)

That's the wired adapter not the wireless one, right? :-?

If you can use this adapter I would definitely go with it. Wifi can be 
flaky for a full installation.

 I boot with with the first i386 CD and it goes through the installer
 until it asks if you need to load firmware from removable storage. At
 first I just put the actually ucode files on a USB stick, but it didn't
 like that. But after putting the iwl firmware deb file, it now installs
 the modules. At the command-line, I can see the iwl3945 module running.
 I then select the wireless interface in the next screen where you pick
 what network interface to use, however it can't see any wireless
 networks. I try the manual setup, but it still doesn't see the network.
 In addition to my protected network some of my neighbors have
 unprotected networks and it can't see them either.

IIRC, the installer only allows WEP encryption, so ensure your AP is 
configured as such if you still want to proceed in that way...

 When its loading the modules from the usb stick, I see the wireless LED
 on my laptop flash a few times, but after that it stays off.
 
 I'm not sure what else i can do with it, the install CD doesn't seem to
 have ifconfig or iwconfig. But with lspci I see the device and the
 correct iwl modules are running and I see the iwl ucode files in
 /usr/lib/firmware.

(...)

Installation is a complex and delicated task I always take very seriously 
and so try to avoid anything that can complicate things in this stage
(like using a wifi card :-P).

Anyway, to see what's going within the installer on you can jump to tty4 
(if not 4 try with another, I never remember the number).

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com]

Sorry, you're right that was the wired interface, I must have cut n pasted the 
wrong line, my wireless is:

0c:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 3945ABG [Golan] 
Network Connection (rev 02)


I'm sorry to hear the installer only supports WEP. That would make it hard for 
anyone without a wired connection.

I did look at the tty with the logging info I don't remember seeing anything 
obvious. I'll try again though.

What seems strange to me is there are two completely unprotected/unencrypted 
wireless networks that I can connect to and browse the net with, but they are 
not detected by the installer. When I manually specify my protected network in 
the installer, it just errors out saying it can't reach it, not that its a 
level 
of encryption not supported, or other specific error. I'll try manually 
specifying one of the unprotected networks next time.

I tried the install again after my original post before getting your reply, and 
the wireless light blinks a lot after the installer finds the iwl firmware deb 
file. Originally I said it only blinked when finding the firmware, but I must 
have just not noticed it. When I specifically watched for it, I see it blinks 
like mad when the installer says it's trying to detect wireless networks. So it 
really seems like its trying.

Thanks.


- Original Message 
From: Camaleón noela...@gmail.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Fri, August 12, 2011 12:39:47 PM
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 06:13:12 -0700, gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I'm trying to do a fresh install of 6.0.2.1, but there is a glitch
 bringing up the wireless network on my 1420N Inspiron laptop. It uses
 the iwl3945 driver:
 
 09:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5906M Fast
 Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02)

That's the wired adapter not the wireless one, right? :-?

If you can use this adapter I would definitely go with it. Wifi can be 
flaky for a full installation.

 I boot with with the first i386 CD and it goes through the installer
 until it asks if you need to load firmware from removable storage. At
 first I just put the actually ucode files on a USB stick, but it didn't
 like that. But after putting the iwl firmware deb file, it now installs
 the modules. At the command-line, I can see the iwl3945 module running.
 I then select the wireless interface in the next screen where you pick
 what network interface to use, however it can't see any wireless
 networks. I try the manual setup, but it still doesn't see the network.
 In addition to my protected network some of my neighbors have
 unprotected networks and it can't see them either.

IIRC, the installer only allows WEP encryption, so ensure your AP is 
configured as such if you still want to proceed in that way...

 When its loading the modules from the usb stick, I see the wireless LED
 on my laptop flash a few times, but after that it stays off.
 
 I'm not sure what else i can do with it, the install CD doesn't seem to
 have ifconfig or iwconfig. But with lspci I see the device and the
 correct iwl modules are running and I see the iwl ucode files in
 /usr/lib/firmware.

(...)

Installation is a complex and delicated task I always take very seriously 
and so try to avoid anything that can complicate things in this stage
(like using a wifi card :-P).

Anyway, to see what's going within the installer on you can jump to tty4 
(if not 4 try with another, I never remember the number).

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com]

I started another install, had the same problem not detecting my WPA network. 
It 
still couldn't detect either of the two unprotected networks, even when I 
specified their ESSIDs.

Pulled from the syslog, here you see it finding the firmware:

Aug 12 20:49:41 check-missing-firmware: missing firmware files 
(iwlwifi-3945-2.ucode iwlwifi-3945-1.ucode) for iwl3945 iwl3945
Aug 12 20:49:55 check-missing-firmware: installing firmware package 
/media/firmware-iwlwifi_0.28_all.deb
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   78.904299] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: PCI INT A disabled
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   78.950751] iwl3945: Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 
3945ABG/BG 
Network Connection driver for Linux, 1.2.26ks
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   78.950754] iwl3945: Copyright(c) 2003-2009 Intel 
Corporation
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   78.950813] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: PCI INT A - GSI 
17 
(level, low) - IRQ 17
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   78.950832] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: setting latency 
timer to 64
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.006469] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: Tunable channels: 
11 802.11bg, 13 802.11a channels
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.006472] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: Detected Intel 
Wireless WiFi Link 3945ABG
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.006611] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: irq 29 for 
MSI/MSI-X
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.007201] phy0: Selected rate control algorithm 
'iwl-3945-rs'
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.009064] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: firmware: 
requesting iwlwifi-3945-2.ucode
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.012391] iwl3945 :0c:00.0: loaded firmware 
version 15.32.2.9
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.079937] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::radio
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.080154] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::assoc
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.080305] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::RX
Aug 12 20:49:56 kernel: [   79.080457] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::TX
Aug 12 20:49:58 kernel: [   81.003877] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::radio
Aug 12 20:49:58 kernel: [   81.004125] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::assoc
Aug 12 20:49:58 kernel: [   81.004278] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::RX
Aug 12 20:49:58 kernel: [   81.004429] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::TX
Aug 12 20:50:02 kernel: [   85.367923] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::radio
Aug 12 20:50:02 kernel: [   85.368183] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::assoc

The last 6 lines above repeated at least a dozen times in the syslog.

then later when I'm trying the different networks:

Aug 12 20:54:08 kernel: [  330.522097] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): wlan0: link is not 
ready
Aug 12 20:54:09 kernel: [  331.595802] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::radio
Aug 12 20:54:09 kernel: [  331.596049] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::assoc
Aug 12 20:54:09 kernel: [  331.596197] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::RX
Aug 12 20:54:09 kernel: [  331.596343] Registered led device: iwl-phy0::TX
Aug 12 20:54:09 kernel: [  331.597972] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): wlan0: link is not 
ready
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc (v1.17.1) started
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: has been called with an 
unknown param: leasefail
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Received SIGTERM
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc (v1.17.1) started
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: has been called with an 
unknown param: leasefail
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: has been called with an 
unknown param: leasefail
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: has been called with an 
unknown param: leasefail
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
reopening socket
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
reopening socket
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
reopening socket
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
reopening socket
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Read error: Network is down, 
reopening socket
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): Sending discover...
Aug 12 20:54:13 main-menu[430]: (process:5459): udhcpc: sendto: 

Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[Charlie]

 On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
 gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com
 suggested this:

From Camaleón's comment, it sounds like using a wireless network to do
an install is generally a problem, has anyone had success with a
wireless install? I'm worried if I ever need to reinstall when I'm not
in my home, it would not work. I don't know if I could get a wired
network port away from home.

I have had the experience as what you say Camaleón has mentioned. Never
been able to install from a wireless network straight up. Have used a
wired network to get the basic system that boots up.

Then installed wireless-tools, non free firmware etc.. to try to
connect to a wireless network. Have installed wicd also, usually, to get
wireless recognised by my /etc/network/interfaces entries and then
installed the rest of the packages to complete the system installation.

Without wicd, ifup wlan0 doesn't seem to work. So I leave it on the
system. If it starts up and finds the wireless network I use that
connection, if it doesn't I invoke ifup wlan0 and use that.

It appears, in my case at least, that wireless just isn't as straight
forward as it probably should be in Debian. On a dual boot laptop,
windows XP finds it straight away. Ce la vie. We're using Debian to
learn, not because it's easy, are we?

Hope that helps.
Charlie
-- 
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***

Whatever the human law may be, neither an individual nor a nation can
commit the least act of injustice against the obscurest individual
without having to pay the penalty for it. ...Henry David Thoreau

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

-


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Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

[gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com]

It makes me feel a little better if its not just my hardware with this issue. I 
hope wireless support gets improved though, I think with wireless being so 
popular and telco/cable companies being so cheap they'll eventually remove 
wired 
connections from consumer grade routers. Its the sort of win-win that 
corporations love: saving money and reducing consumer choice. The ultimate 
two-fer! Although I like learning technology (and the DFSG lowers the expense 
of 
learning to the cost of the hardware you learn on), I mostly use debian because 
I don't like my communication and security to be at the whim of people who's 
profit model doesn't really take into consideration whether I can communicate 
securely.



- Original Message 
From: Charlie aries...@skymesh.com.au
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Fri, August 12, 2011 10:16:12 PM
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! (wireless installation problem)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com gnubayonne-debian...@yahoo.com
suggested this:

From Camaleón's comment, it sounds like using a wireless network to do
an install is generally a problem, has anyone had success with a
wireless install? I'm worried if I ever need to reinstall when I'm not
in my home, it would not work. I don't know if I could get a wired
network port away from home.

I have had the experience as what you say Camaleón has mentioned. Never
been able to install from a wireless network straight up. Have used a
wired network to get the basic system that boots up.

Then installed wireless-tools, non free firmware etc.. to try to
connect to a wireless network. Have installed wicd also, usually, to get
wireless recognised by my /etc/network/interfaces entries and then
installed the rest of the packages to complete the system installation.

Without wicd, ifup wlan0 doesn't seem to work. So I leave it on the
system. If it starts up and finds the wireless network I use that
connection, if it doesn't I invoke ifup wlan0 and use that.

It appears, in my case at least, that wireless just isn't as straight
forward as it probably should be in Debian. On a dual boot laptop,
windows XP finds it straight away. Ce la vie. We're using Debian to
learn, not because it's easy, are we?

Hope that helps.
Charlie
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

Whatever the human law may be, neither an individual nor a nation can
commit the least act of injustice against the obscurest individual
without having to pay the penalty for it. ...Henry David Thoreau

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

-


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In 4dc426d9.7030...@vru.uho.edu.cu, Alexey Leyva wrote:
help

You'll have to be more specific.
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Re: Unidentified subject!

[croison]

Le vendredi 24 décembre 2010 à 14:32 +0100, Halim a écrit :
 Bonjour,
 Voila aussi blizzard que sa vous semble mais je n'arrive pas ...
 Je veux rejoindre la communauté des développeurs Debian j'ai lu et relu
   presque toutes les pages du site ...
 Pouvez vous SVP m'expliquer comment je peut apporter ma contribution au
 projet debian en terme de développement...
 
 Merci de votre réponse
 
  tu n'a rien trouver ici ?
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe


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Re: Unidentified subject!

[suchod]

Le 12/24/2010 02:32 PM, Halim a écrit :

Bonjour,
Voila aussi blizzard que sa vous semble mais je n'arrive pas ...
Je veux rejoindre la communauté des développeurs Debian j'ai lu et relu
   presque toutes les pages du site ...
Pouvez vous SVP m'expliquer comment je peut apporter ma contribution au
projet debian en terme de développement...

Merci de votre réponse

   

ceci ferait peut etre ton affaire :

http://www.debian.org/intro/help

jerome

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Re: Unidentified subject!

[Anticept .]

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 12:37 PM,  debian-user@lists.debian.org wrote:


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What was this?

-Anticept


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