Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 10:33:39 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 11:01:49AM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with > > pasting. However, to take one example, > > Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the > packages are being removed from their system, From: $ cat /etc/debian_version 10.5 $ apt-get -s full-upgrade NOTE: This is only a simulation! apt-get needs root privileges for real execution. Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated, so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation! Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Calculating upgrade... Done 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. $ I assume the OP is running or intending to run an unreleased suite. > > [wicd] news > > > >[2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters) > >[2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all) > > into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert) > >[2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch) > > wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but > it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a > consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation. Yes, I suppose that some conflicting dependency might be introduced as new versions of libraries etc arrive in unstable. In a sense, that ought to happen as the suite evolves, and it's partly down to chance when it doesn't. (For example, I still install xtoolwait from squeeze.) > That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now. Absolutely. I started to do that last month, when it was mentioned that wicd was in danger of disappearing, as a casualty of python2. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/08/msg00782.html Currently I'm reading the files in connman-doc, having seen that advocated here. Cheers, David.
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 11:01:49AM -0500, David Wright wrote: It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with pasting. However, to take one example, Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the packages are being removed from their system, [wicd] news [2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters) [2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all) into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert) [2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch) wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation. That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now. -- Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list. Jonathan Dowland ✎j...@debian.org https://jmtd.net
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Jo, 17 sep 20, 17:14:30, Hans wrote: > > The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but > the > deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a > substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package. Please note bullseye is still under development, the final set of packages to be released is far from established. Removed packages can be reintroduced. This is your chance to do something about it (as in help with maintenance, etc.). Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On 9/17/2020 10:29 AM, Joe wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:14:30 +0200 Hans wrote: Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: Hi Joe, No offence. :) And none taken. Yes, I've lost one or two applications over the years which I was actively using. But it is rare for this to happen without a good substitute (in someone's opinion) being available. I would not say it is rare. It is quote common. I think the OP perhaps wants some sort of more or less automatic substitution, which is not practical. But it does happen. I use Remmina for MS remote desktop, but there was a time when that was very buggy, and the previous best RDP software had been withdrawn. I carried on using the latter as long as I could, by which time Remmina was useable. Oh, wow! I did not know about this software. I need to give it a whirl. Thanks! Alarm Clock was the most recent application I was using which was withdrawn. It's a bit more of a problem when it's a driver for proprietary hardware, which manufacturers often do not provide for Linux, and only one person/group was making an OS version, more or less as a hobby. It's more of a problem with Windows. Whether it is a matter of the company being bought and the product terminated, the company going out of business, or the product being discontinued, at least with an open-source solution, one can manage the product one's self.
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On 9/17/2020 10:14 AM, Hans wrote: Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: Hi Joe, yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is close to unstable. The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package. If a package is deprecated, no longer maintained, there is not much to be done. It sucks, I know very well, but what do you suggest? A very good example: SSMTP. It was a great package. It was simple (as the name suggests) and very straightforward. The replacement? MSMTP. It is extremely difficult to get the package to work properly and it is very buggy. Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their applications are gone. Yeah. It sucks. Even worse, many of the packages that do have "upgrades" are vastly inferior to the prior version. Again, what do you suggest? Might be ok for experienced people (who are experienced in the console) No, it sucks. Experience with anything notwithstanding. but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical I submit people wjp "need" graphicalinterfaces should not be attempting to use a computer, especially not at the expense of those of us who have no use for a graphical interface. easy to use tools. The terms "graphical" and "easy to use" are an oxymoron. The terms "uncceptably limited", "often impossible to use", and "graphical" are much more in line with one another.
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Thursday, 17 September 2020 11:14:30 -04 Hans wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: > Hi Joe, > > yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, > which is close to unstable. > > The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, > but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people > without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the > uninstalled package. > > Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and > their applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who > are experienced in the console), but this is not ok for ". > > There are more than you expect. > > No offence. :) none taken > > Best regards > > Hans Dear Hans, that is all very true, especially for "people, who NEED graphical, easy to use tools". But guess what - it happens to Apple OSX Users all the time. Last time, for example, they threw all 32bit Software into the historical bit-bucket and lots and lots of useful software went down the drain. I'm afraid that this will happen with Debian too when supporting 32bit architecture becomes less and less feasable. It happens always with any architecture when maintainers lose interest, hardware becomes harder to come-by, the maintainer(s) experience(s) job related changes or their health is making trouble, or they need more time for the kids. That is the way it is and always will be. Cheers Eike
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 17:14:30 (+0200), Hans wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: > > yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is > close to unstable. > > The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but > the > deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a > substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package. It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with pasting. However, to take one example, [wicd] news [2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters) [2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all) into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert) [2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch) > Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their > applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who are > experienced > in the console), but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical, easy to > use tools. Perhaps you could start a wiki page on alternatives, as part of the preparation for this event (or check whether one is being written already). AIUI there are several alternatives. > There are more than you expect. I suspect many of these inexperienced people are using NetworkManager with their DEs. Cheers, David.
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:14:30 +0200 Hans wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: > Hi Joe, > > yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, > which is close to unstable. > > The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at > all, but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for > people without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the > uninstalled package. > > Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and > their applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who > are experienced in the console), but this is not ok for people, who > NEED graphical, easy to use tools. > > There are more than you expect. > > No offence. :) > And none taken. Yes, I've lost one or two applications over the years which I was actively using. But it is rare for this to happen without a good substitute (in someone's opinion) being available. But it does happen. I use Remmina for MS remote desktop, but there was a time when that was very buggy, and the previous best RDP software had been withdrawn. I carried on using the latter as long as I could, by which time Remmina was useable. Alarm Clock was the most recent application I was using which was withdrawn. It's a bit more of a problem when it's a driver for proprietary hardware, which manufacturers often do not provide for Linux, and only one person/group was making an OS version, more or less as a hobby. -- Joe
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe: Hi Joe, yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is close to unstable. The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package. Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who are experienced in the console), but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical, easy to use tools. There are more than you expect. No offence. :) Best regards Hans signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:47:24 +0200 Hans wrote: > Hi folks, > > of course, apt-get full-upgrade sometimes wants to deinstall some > packages, but this here is strange. Take a look: > > --- > > apt-get full-upgrade > > > > Really? You want deinstall packages like wicd*, zenmap, d-rats? This > looks weired for me, as there is no success for wicd (network-manager > is really pita at the moment), and for zenmap, I believe, lot of > people might miss it. Hmm, maybe I am too serious, but maybe there > might be a way to keep these packages? (aptitude hold will, I know, I > know). It looks for me, it is just a dependencyproblem, with > python2-packages, maybe these will also run with python3? If so, > maybe the dependencies can be changed? > > Wicd is removed from the repo, I know, but there is no alternative > for it. If you believe so, then try to let your dad or mum to connect > to the internet with an alternative you think is working. Try an > alternative as easy as for wicd-curses. Think you find none. > > For myself, I can handle it, but not all debian users are well > experienced. Think of them, please. > > Just my thoughts. :) > > You didn't say which distribution. If it is Stable (Buster), something is seriously wrong. If it is not Stable, then a beginner would not be using it. Only Stable is released as Debian, with a version number. People use Unstable at their own risk, and I use it on my main workstation. Sometimes something important breaks, but I have more than one computer. Only twice in about fifteen years has Unstable become so badly broken as to need reinstallation, and one of those times was after I had left it too long between upgrades. With Unstable, the behaviour you are seeing is normal. What happens is that a group of related packages are released as each individual package is ready. Some of the other related packages will not be compatible with the released ones. Some other packages depend on the related not-released packages. If you upgrade the packages which are released, dist-upgrade will want to remove the related non-released packages which are incompatible, and will also want to remove anything dependent on them. The problem usually occurs with very large sets of packages, like Qt or KDE. The solution is to wait until you no longer get the big removal messages before you accept the upgrade, when all the related packages have new versions. This may take hours, days or weeks. If you have some time, you can upgrade individual packages which are not involved with the problem, and I find Synaptic most useful for doing that. Or apt-get upgrade, which will not remove packages, will do most of it. This behaviour is an inevitable consequence of using a rolling release distribution, rather than a distribution which has definite version upgrades. Sometimes it rolls over you. As to Network Manager, I use it on my Stable netbook without problems, for wifi and VPN. It has not been Notwork Manager for some years, as far as I'm concerned. I don't use it on Unstable, which is only installed on a desktop computer which has no need for wifi or VPN. -- Joe
Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 12:47:24 CEST schrieb Hans: Hmm, answer myself. Looks like the output is could not be pasted into the mail (root rights). However, think, you understood my worries. To verify: I do not want to blame someone, my intention is more looking in the way, unexperienced users do. Easyness is very important for those. Have fun! Hans signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
