Re: sound cards locked, No Host

[Thomas George]

good point but no success.

used top to find blender and kill. no improvement

On 11/6/23 10:53, Marco M. wrote:

Am 06.11.2023 um 10:26:53 Uhr schrieb Thomas George:


alsactl says sound cards locked. There is a lock directory in
var/lib/alsa/asound-state

mpv song.ogg fails with message No Host

There may be solutions in the debian-user archives. I am slowly
reading these in search of a solution.

Any help?

Is any application using alsa?

What about PulseAudio or Pipewire?

Re: sound cards locked, No Host

[Marco M.]

Am 06.11.2023 um 10:26:53 Uhr schrieb Thomas George:

> alsactl says sound cards locked. There is a lock directory in 
> var/lib/alsa/asound-state
> 
> mpv song.ogg fails with message No Host
> 
> There may be solutions in the debian-user archives. I am slowly
> reading these in search of a solution.
> 
> Any help?

Is any application using alsa?

What about PulseAudio or Pipewire?

sound cards locked, No Host

[Thomas George]

Just upgraded to Bookworm

no sound.

alsactl says sound cards locked. There is a lock directory in 
var/lib/alsa/asound-state


mpv song.ogg fails with message No Host

There may be solutions in the debian-user archives. I am slowly reading 
these in search of a solution.


Any help?

Tom George

Re: heads up: timidity causes pulseaudio to not find sound cards

[Eric S Fraga]

Very helpful.  Thanks.  I'll keep this around in case I lose sound again!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian 9.5

Re: heads up: timidity causes pulseaudio to not find sound cards

[Jochen Spieker]

Eric S Fraga:
> 
> I recently did an 'apt update; apt upgrade' on my desktop which is
> running testing (aka buster).  Doing so led to my losing sound through
> any application that relies on pulseaudio, e.g. firefox.  I could still
> use console based tools (e.g. mocp) to listen to music but pulseaudio
> could not find my default built-in sound card, only the nvidia card
> which provides sound through HDMI.

I had a similar issue, but in my case it was just the order of the audio
devices that was shuffled around:

$ cat /proc/asound/cards
 0 [HDMI   ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel HDMI
  HDA Intel HDMI at 0xe063 irq 48
 1 [PCH]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel PCH
  HDA Intel PCH at 0xe0634000 irq 46

I can only assume that previously the PCH device was 0 and the HDMI
device was 1. In any case, alsamixer did not show any volume controls
anymore and applications like mplayer, which produce sensible error
output, reported that they failed to find a proper audio device.

The solution was simple:

$ grep snd_ /etc/modprobe.d/local.conf
options snd_hda_intel index=0
options snd_hda_codec_hdmi index=1

That and a reboot fixed it.

J.
-- 
I eat meat and am concerned about bugs which are resistant to
antibiotics.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: heads up: timidity causes pulseaudio to not find sound cards

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday, 12 Nov 2018 at 08:12, deloptes wrote:
> Hi this is known issue, but purging is really not necessary as you could set
> (AFAIK) TIM_ALSASEQ=false
> in /etc/default/timidity

Thanks.

I don't (currently) use timidity so purging was an easy
solution.  However, it's good to know that there is an easier more
elegant solution!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian 9.5

Re: heads up: timidity causes pulseaudio to not find sound cards

[deloptes]

Eric S Fraga wrote:

> I recently did an 'apt update; apt upgrade' on my desktop which is
> running testing (aka buster).  Doing so led to my losing sound through
> any application that relies on pulseaudio, e.g. firefox.  I could still
> use console based tools (e.g. mocp) to listen to music but pulseaudio
> could not find my default built-in sound card, only the nvidia card
> which provides sound through HDMI.  Unfortunately, not having any audio
> device connected via HDMI, I could not hear anything.  I only have
> speakers connected through the headphone jack.  (old skool)
> 
> Purging timidity from my system fixed the problem.  I did this based on
> the advice from this web page:
> 
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=154002
> 
> although I am not entirely sure why this worked.  Halfway through the
> purging operation, sound came back without even having to reboot or
> restart any services.
> 
> Just a heads up in case somebody else loses sound all of a sudden.

Hi this is known issue, but purging is really not necessary as you could set
(AFAIK) TIM_ALSASEQ=false

in /etc/default/timidity

regards

heads up: timidity causes pulseaudio to not find sound cards

[Eric S Fraga]

Hello all,

I recently did an 'apt update; apt upgrade' on my desktop which is
running testing (aka buster).  Doing so led to my losing sound through
any application that relies on pulseaudio, e.g. firefox.  I could still
use console based tools (e.g. mocp) to listen to music but pulseaudio
could not find my default built-in sound card, only the nvidia card
which provides sound through HDMI.  Unfortunately, not having any audio
device connected via HDMI, I could not hear anything.  I only have
speakers connected through the headphone jack.  (old skool)

Purging timidity from my system fixed the problem.  I did this based on
the advice from this web page:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=154002

although I am not entirely sure why this worked.  Halfway through the
purging operation, sound came back without even having to reboot or
restart any services.

Just a heads up in case somebody else loses sound all of a sudden.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.14 on Debian buster/sid

Multiple sound cards in Wheezy occasionally misses ALSA motherboard card0

[John Conover]

  
I Added to EOF of /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf:

options snd_bt87x index=-2
options snd-hda-intel index=0
options snd-usb-audio index=1 vid=0x046d pid=0x081b
options snd_bt87x index=2
options snd-usb-audio index=3 vid=0x0d8c pid=0x0008

to accomodate 4 sound cards, (card1 is a USB microphone, and is not
connected.)

Occasionally, after a boot, "cat /proc/asound/cards", yields:

0 [U0x46d0x81b]: USB-Audio - USB Device 0x46d:0x81b
 USB Device 0x46d:0x81b at usb-:00:1a.7-1.4, high 
speed
2 [Bt878  ]: Bt87x - Brooktree Bt878
 Brooktree Bt878 at 0xf000, irq 16

Note that the HDA-Intel was NOT card0.

Usually, after a boot, "cat /proc/asound/cards", yields:

0 [Intel  ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel
 HDA Intel at 0xf7adc000 irq 50
2 [Bt878  ]: Bt87x - Brooktree Bt878
 Brooktree Bt878 at 0xf000, irq 16
3 [Device ]: USB-Audio - C-Media USB Audio Device
 C-Media USB Audio Device at usb-:00:1d.2-1, full 
speed

Which is correct as per /etc/udev/rules.d/25-alsa.rules and
/etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf assignments.

Any ideas why card0 is occasionally erratic?

(Maybe 25-alsa.rules should be named to a lower number? Maybe "options
snd-hda-intel index=0" in /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf should be
omitted?)

Thanks for any help,

John

-- 

John Conover, cono...@rahul.net, http://www.johncon.com/

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[rlharris]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 1:17 pm, Martin McCormick wrote:
> I am not using XLR's, but I do use 1-to-1 isolation transformers
> between the audio sources and sound inputs

Hum in audio systems almost always is a consequence of improper grounding.
 Although an XLR connector on a piece of apparatus SHOULD BE a guarantee
of freedom from hum, such is not always the case; regrettably, not every
audio manufacturer has a proper understanding of grounding and shielding,
and of the distinction between a signal ground and a chassis ground.

Perhaps the best comprehensive collection of application notes is that
made available by Rane, at http://www.rane.com/library.html; the notes
are:

RaneNote "Grounding and Shielding Audio Devices"
(updated 7-02)

RaneNote "Sound System Interconnection"
(RaneNote 110) (updated 7-11)

RaneNote "Why Not Wye?" (updated 4-04)

RaneNote "Pin 1 Revisited" (8-07)

RaneNote "SCIN: Shield Current Induced Noise" (8-07)

PDF "Grounding and Shielding Computer-Controlled Audio Devices"
Steven Macatee, AES (12-94)

PDF "System Problems and Equipment Manufacturers"
Bill Whitlock, Systems Contractor News (9-87)

PDF Cable Outlook: Is it time to move to shielded category cable?
SVC 7-13 (400k)

Various manufacturers offer isolation transformers and level converters to
enable interconnection of consumer (-10 dBV RCA) and professional (+4 dBu
XLR) devices.  For example, Rane has the passive "Balance Buddy", and ART
has the "CleanBox", which utilizes active circuitry.  Such devices are
inexpensive, and can be had from most commercial broadcast supply houses.

RLH

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

rlhar...@oplink.net writes:
> Lexicon Alpha (powered by USB) and Lexicon Omega (external supply) are
> excellent broadcast-quality USB audio interfaces which "just work" with
> Linux.
> 
> Another excellent device is the Shure X2U, which is particularly adapted
> to portable use (USB powered; fits in a pocket).
> 
> Tascam is another manufacturer of broadcast-quality USB devices, but I
> have no direct experience with Tascam USB.
> 
> For quality gear of this genre, it is advisable to shop and purchase
> throug broadcast suppliers such as fullcompass.com and bswusa.com.
> 
> The analog side of professional audio devices utilizes balanced inputs and
> outputs, and balanced cabling and connectors.  Properly designed balanced
> circuitry guarantees freedom from hum.
> 
> The best and most common balanced connectors are of the XLR design, but
> 3-conductor 1/4-inch phone jacks and plugs (TRS = tip, ring, sleeve) also
> are used, particularly when panel space is limited.

Great suggestions and thank you. I am not using XLR's,
but I do use 1-to-1 isolation transformers between the audio
sources and sound inputs as it is not difficult at all to accidentally induce
hum in to unbalanced lines.

Martin

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[rlharris]

On Tue, May 24, 2016 1:27 pm, Martin McCormick wrote:
>
> Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
> days that record and play stereo under Linux?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.

Lexicon Alpha (powered by USB) and Lexicon Omega (external supply) are
excellent broadcast-quality USB audio interfaces which "just work" with
Linux.

Another excellent device is the Shure X2U, which is particularly adapted
to portable use (USB powered; fits in a pocket).

Tascam is another manufacturer of broadcast-quality USB devices, but I
have no direct experience with Tascam USB.

For quality gear of this genre, it is advisable to shop and purchase
throug broadcast suppliers such as fullcompass.com and bswusa.com.

The analog side of professional audio devices utilizes balanced inputs and
outputs, and balanced cabling and connectors.  Properly designed balanced
circuitry guarantees freedom from hum.

The best and most common balanced connectors are of the XLR design, but
3-conductor 1/4-inch phone jacks and plugs (TRS = tip, ring, sleeve) also
are used, particularly when panel space is limited.

RLH

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Joel Roth]

Jude DaShiell wrote:
> For the audiophiles, if a jack2 discussion list exists that will probably be
> another good list to join.  It could be discussion of what jack2 can do that
> alsa cannot may happen and in that happy event you'll get a knowledge of
> what to use when and why.

JACK and JACK2 are two implementations of the same API,
so you don't need to restrict yourself to JACK2 mailing
list even if you are using JACK2.

The archlinux wiki references on JACK and ALSA are an
excellent starting point, and I would suggest going there
*before* going to the mailing list.

In short, JACK is often used for music production, where you
want to hook several components together, for example a
synth that feeds its audio outputs to a DAW.

HTH,


-- 
Joel Roth
  

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

deloptes  writes:
> This is a different topic - there is the remote control group -
> http://www.lirc.org
> 
> I've even dared to fix few things in the kernel driver to make a remote 
> work
> properly - but it was ages ago.
> 
> I than mapped manually the keys to action in different apps.
> 
> regards

Yes! I agree as I have also dabbled in interfacing
infrared remotes but the lirc project appears to be light years 
ahead of what I ever did which was to get an
Apple II to issue IR commands to a short wave radio receiver
which had an IR remote back in 1986. I got it to work but it
certainly wasn't expandable to any other system other than that
one and another made by the same company. The hardware today is
so much faster, better and cheaper when it comes to measuring
time and generating pulses of a given time which is the name of
the game when working with IR control.

As for that sound card, I was not interested in making
the remote work, but was seeing how much of it did work the day I
first tried it out. Without lirc support, the only button that
works is the Power button so I removed the batteries and set it
aside for now as being able to shut it down by remote does much
more harm than good;).

Martin

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Jude DaShiell]

On Tue, 24 May 2016, Martin McCormick wrote:


Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 21:07:30
From: Martin McCormick <marti...@suddenlink.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?
Resent-Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 01:07:45 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

deloptes <delop...@gmail.com> writes:

I suggest you check here
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main
and try the alsa mailing list.


I did try that link and I see that, as I suspected, there
are tons of USB sound cards. My thanks also to Jude DaShiell and kon 
Alstadheimkfor
replies. I have also joined the alsa-user discussion list since I
realize I should probably move any more questions there and stop
bothering the debian-user list as it is primarily for helping
folks install, adjust and operate good old Debian and ubuntu
Linux. Sometimes, it is hard to tell when there is just one
problem that one or two answers can fix or a knowledge gap that
needs one to stop and learn a lot more details before moving
ahead.

The suggestion was made to not get the cheapest card but
a card with few frills in the mid ranges which is exactly what I
had in mind, not because I can't afford a better one but what is
there is more likely to just work.

I do have an older USB card, for instance, that is a
SoundBlaster Extigy. I bought it second-hand at a swap meet and
in Debian, it records and plays just fine but had I gotten it
new, I would have been aggravated. There is a nice slick remote
control that came with the card and the only button on it that
does anything is the Power switch that you do not ever want to
accidentally press as it turns off and your OS is very unhappy at
the sudden vaporization of the device one was writing to or
reading from. There's a nice detented knob that probably does
something in Windows such as adjust gain or balance but in
Linux, it does absolutely nothing. For Ten US Dollars, it was
okay for me but I bet it cost ten or twenty times more when brand
new. The amixer settings for Line,0 and Line,1 both turn down the
input gain on the only Line input that works. I bet that is not
what was supposed to happen, but one can certainly use it that
way.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. It is much appreciated.

Martin

For the audiophiles, if a jack2 discussion list exists that will probably 
be another good list to join.  It could be discussion of what jack2 can 
do that alsa cannot may happen and in that happy event you'll get a 
knowledge of what to use when and why.






--

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Michael Lange]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 11:24:48 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> This is a different topic - there is the remote control group -
> http://www.lirc.org
> 
> I've even dared to fix few things in the kernel driver to make a remote
> work properly - but it was ages ago.
> 
> I than mapped manually the keys to action in different apps.

Personally I never had to mess with the kernel, but it happened that I
had to play around with irrecord to set up a working lircd.conf file for
the remote / receiver combination in use. Usually it should even be not
much of a problem to create a working lircd.conf for a given ir-receiver
with an entirely different remote by catching the codes sent by the
remote with irrecord and then mapping these to the desired lirc events in
the lircd.conf file.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

"What happened to the crewman?"
"The M-5 computer needed a new power source, the crewman merely
got in the way."
-- Kirk and Dr. Richard Daystrom, "The Ultimate Computer",
   stardate 4731.3.

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[deloptes]

Martin McCormick wrote:

> I do have an older USB card, for instance, that is a
> SoundBlaster Extigy. I bought it second-hand at a swap meet and
> in Debian, it records and plays just fine but had I gotten it
> new, I would have been aggravated. There is a nice slick remote
> control that came with the card and the only button on it that
> does anything is the Power switch that you do not ever want to
> accidentally press as it turns off and your OS is very unhappy at
> the sudden vaporization of the device one was writing to or
> reading from.

This is a different topic - there is the remote control group -
http://www.lirc.org

I've even dared to fix few things in the kernel driver to make a remote work
properly - but it was ages ago.

I than mapped manually the keys to action in different apps.

regards

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 25 May 2016 02:07:30 Martin McCormick wrote:
> the debian-user list as it is primarily for helping
> folks install, adjust and operate good old Debian and ubuntu
> Linux.

No, it is NOT for Ubuntu. :-/

Lisi

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

=?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?=  writes:
> Rather than going with a Consumer card. Head to a Audio/Music store. What
> you are looking for is a USB - Audio interface; they generally have much
> better Signal to Noise ration, hardware mixers and Ballanced XLR outputs
> and Inputs. Something like the focusrite scarlet.
> 
> Alternatively if you are just after a simple DAC/AMP without Inputs - then
> I throughly recommend The Cheap FIio E1 - Which can be had for around 50$
> and have 96hkz/24bit DAC decoding I have several and they can be used as
> just a headphone amp as well as with android.
> 
> Basically is it doesn't have an external power source or a built in 
> battery
> - then avoid it - especially if you plan on attaching it to unbalanced
> speaker/desk amps. The only Consumer manufacturer dac I would consider in
> this class is the Creative E5 - but it's several hundred more than the
> above mentioned Fiio E1 and you only really would need it if you want
> bluetooth and input options.

The FIio E1 sounds like a great starting point. I do have
isolation transformers on each audio source so a device like this
should work with no problem at all. Thank you.

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Joel Wirāmu Pauling]

I said Fiio E1 I Meant - Q1 :
http://www.head-fi.org/t/780726/fiios-new-q1-portable-dac-amp-lets-drink-to-happy-listening

On 24 May 2016 at 18:22, Joel Wirāmu Pauling <j...@aenertia.net> wrote:

> Rather than going with a Consumer card. Head to a Audio/Music store. What
> you are looking for is a USB - Audio interface; they generally have much
> better Signal to Noise ration, hardware mixers and Ballanced XLR outputs
> and Inputs. Something like the focusrite scarlet.
>
> Alternatively if you are just after a simple DAC/AMP without Inputs - then
> I throughly recommend The Cheap FIio E1 - Which can be had for around 50$
> and have 96hkz/24bit DAC decoding I have several and they can be used as
> just a headphone amp as well as with android.
>
> Basically is it doesn't have an external power source or a built in
> battery - then avoid it - especially if you plan on attaching it to
> unbalanced speaker/desk amps. The only Consumer manufacturer dac I would
> consider in this class is the Creative E5 - but it's several hundred more
> than the above mentioned Fiio E1 and you only really would need it if you
> want bluetooth and input options.
>
>
>
> On 24 May 2016 at 11:27, Martin McCormick <marti...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I went to a local electronics emporium and asked for a
>> USB sound card that might possibly work under Linux. I have been
>> messing with Linux and USB long enough to know that a number of
>> USB sound cards mostly work well enough for one to play and
>> record stereo but some special features may not work without
>> proprietary drivers available to Windows or Mac users. These
>> features are usually not show stoppers so there is no real
>> problem.
>>
>> The only USB sound card they had was a SoundBlaster XG5
>> designed for the gaming market but, I thought, this is probably
>> pretty good and, if most everything on it works, how can you go
>> wrong?
>>
>> Well, here's how. Firstly, I am not bashing Creative Labs
>> or the product itself but this is what happens when things become
>> overly specialized.
>>
>> What I was looking for was a sound card which would
>> record stereo. They usually will play, also but recording two
>> line-level channels is a must.
>>
>> This is a really neat little device in that it has
>> optical line input and output ports and a stereo headphone output
>> but there is only a microphone input--(game over.)
>>
>> I did power it up and ran amixer on it to see if maybe
>> there is more to that Mic input than originally meets the eye but there
>> is actually less. There are several PCM inputs and maybe one is
>> the microphone but it isn't clear what each PCM channel does.
>> Again, if there are not two discrete analog line-level audio
>> inputs, it can not be used as a normal sound card.
>>
>> I rarely need to return products to a store, but I am
>> glad this one has a reasonable return policy because the device
>> is so highly specialized that there is no way to use it for
>> anything but playback only or as, in a game, good sound with a
>> Mic for one to talk over.
>>
>> Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
>> days that record and play stereo under Linux?
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions.
>>
>> Martin McCormick
>>
>>
>

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Joel Wirāmu Pauling]

Rather than going with a Consumer card. Head to a Audio/Music store. What
you are looking for is a USB - Audio interface; they generally have much
better Signal to Noise ration, hardware mixers and Ballanced XLR outputs
and Inputs. Something like the focusrite scarlet.

Alternatively if you are just after a simple DAC/AMP without Inputs - then
I throughly recommend The Cheap FIio E1 - Which can be had for around 50$
and have 96hkz/24bit DAC decoding I have several and they can be used as
just a headphone amp as well as with android.

Basically is it doesn't have an external power source or a built in battery
- then avoid it - especially if you plan on attaching it to unbalanced
speaker/desk amps. The only Consumer manufacturer dac I would consider in
this class is the Creative E5 - but it's several hundred more than the
above mentioned Fiio E1 and you only really would need it if you want
bluetooth and input options.



On 24 May 2016 at 11:27, Martin McCormick <marti...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

> I went to a local electronics emporium and asked for a
> USB sound card that might possibly work under Linux. I have been
> messing with Linux and USB long enough to know that a number of
> USB sound cards mostly work well enough for one to play and
> record stereo but some special features may not work without
> proprietary drivers available to Windows or Mac users. These
> features are usually not show stoppers so there is no real
> problem.
>
> The only USB sound card they had was a SoundBlaster XG5
> designed for the gaming market but, I thought, this is probably
> pretty good and, if most everything on it works, how can you go
> wrong?
>
> Well, here's how. Firstly, I am not bashing Creative Labs
> or the product itself but this is what happens when things become
> overly specialized.
>
> What I was looking for was a sound card which would
> record stereo. They usually will play, also but recording two
> line-level channels is a must.
>
> This is a really neat little device in that it has
> optical line input and output ports and a stereo headphone output
> but there is only a microphone input--(game over.)
>
> I did power it up and ran amixer on it to see if maybe
> there is more to that Mic input than originally meets the eye but there
> is actually less. There are several PCM inputs and maybe one is
> the microphone but it isn't clear what each PCM channel does.
> Again, if there are not two discrete analog line-level audio
> inputs, it can not be used as a normal sound card.
>
> I rarely need to return products to a store, but I am
> glad this one has a reasonable return policy because the device
> is so highly specialized that there is no way to use it for
> anything but playback only or as, in a game, good sound with a
> Mic for one to talk over.
>
> Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
> days that record and play stereo under Linux?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Martin McCormick
>
>

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

deloptes <delop...@gmail.com> writes:
> I suggest you check here
> http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main
> and try the alsa mailing list.

I did try that link and I see that, as I suspected, there
are tons of USB sound cards. My thanks also to Jude DaShiell and kon 
Alstadheimkfor
replies. I have also joined the alsa-user discussion list since I
realize I should probably move any more questions there and stop
bothering the debian-user list as it is primarily for helping
folks install, adjust and operate good old Debian and ubuntu
Linux. Sometimes, it is hard to tell when there is just one
problem that one or two answers can fix or a knowledge gap that
needs one to stop and learn a lot more details before moving
ahead.

The suggestion was made to not get the cheapest card but
a card with few frills in the mid ranges which is exactly what I
had in mind, not because I can't afford a better one but what is
there is more likely to just work.

I do have an older USB card, for instance, that is a
SoundBlaster Extigy. I bought it second-hand at a swap meet and
in Debian, it records and plays just fine but had I gotten it
new, I would have been aggravated. There is a nice slick remote
control that came with the card and the only button on it that
does anything is the Power switch that you do not ever want to
accidentally press as it turns off and your OS is very unhappy at
the sudden vaporization of the device one was writing to or
reading from. There's a nice detented knob that probably does
something in Windows such as adjust gain or balance but in
Linux, it does absolutely nothing. For Ten US Dollars, it was
okay for me but I bet it cost ten or twenty times more when brand
new. The amixer settings for Line,0 and Line,1 both turn down the
input gain on the only Line input that works. I bet that is not
what was supposed to happen, but one can certainly use it that
way.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. It is much appreciated.

Martin

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Håkon Alstadheim]

Den 24. mai 2016 20:27, skrev Martin McCormick:
- (see subject)
I have had good luck going to a musical-instruments store, rather than a
computer store. They know sound. Explain your intended use to them, and
they might actually understand what you want. Get a no-frills, but not
the very cheapest unit with good signal-to noise. If in doubt, bring a
smart-phone and google the brand . Behringer has several
that work with linux out of the box.

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Jude DaShiell]

Thinkpenguin.com sells a usb sound card crystal-cs if memory serves that 
needs no proprietary drivers.


On Tue, 24 May 2016, Martin McCormick wrote:


Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 14:27:38
From: Martin McCormick <marti...@suddenlink.net>
To: Debian Users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?
Resent-Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 18:27:56 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

I went to a local electronics emporium and asked for a
USB sound card that might possibly work under Linux. I have been
messing with Linux and USB long enough to know that a number of
USB sound cards mostly work well enough for one to play and
record stereo but some special features may not work without
proprietary drivers available to Windows or Mac users. These
features are usually not show stoppers so there is no real
problem.

The only USB sound card they had was a SoundBlaster XG5
designed for the gaming market but, I thought, this is probably
pretty good and, if most everything on it works, how can you go
wrong?

Well, here's how. Firstly, I am not bashing Creative Labs
or the product itself but this is what happens when things become
overly specialized.

What I was looking for was a sound card which would
record stereo. They usually will play, also but recording two
line-level channels is a must.

This is a really neat little device in that it has
optical line input and output ports and a stereo headphone output
but there is only a microphone input--(game over.)

I did power it up and ran amixer on it to see if maybe
there is more to that Mic input than originally meets the eye but there
is actually less. There are several PCM inputs and maybe one is
the microphone but it isn't clear what each PCM channel does.
Again, if there are not two discrete analog line-level audio
inputs, it can not be used as a normal sound card.

I rarely need to return products to a store, but I am
glad this one has a reasonable return policy because the device
is so highly specialized that there is no way to use it for
anything but playback only or as, in a game, good sound with a
Mic for one to talk over.

Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
days that record and play stereo under Linux?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Martin McCormick




--

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

Joe  writes:
> For recording, good signal to noise ratio is important, and the four or
> five internal cards I've used over the years have all been very poor in
> this respect, maybe in the low 40s in dB.
> 
> USB devices I've tried have had much less noise, particularly if the
> audio ground side is linked to the tower case independently of the USB
> cable.

The inside of a P.C. case is a hostile environment when
it comes to EMI (Electro-magnetic interference.)

The worst issues I have had are ground loops between the
P.C. case and other grounded devices in which there are a few
millivolts of AC difference between the two so-called Earth
connections. That is why recording studios and broadcast stations
usually use ballanced lines for all their audio connections.

Martin

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

deloptes  writes:
> I suggest you check here
> http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main
> and try the alsa mailing list.
> 
> I would stay to the PCI cards if possible because with USB you will have
> lesser speed and quality, but it is up to you.
> Consider CPU and hard drive speed as well.

Quite true. I've gotten a tremendous amount of use
through Linux out of these older systems which are 15 years plus
in age so anything I put on them now should be something with use
after the mother boards let out their magic smoke one of these
days.

Martin

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Joe]

On Tue, 24 May 2016 20:44:59 +0200
deloptes  wrote:


> 
> I would stay to the PCI cards if possible because with USB you will
> have lesser speed and quality, but it is up to you.
> Consider CPU and hard drive speed as well.
> 

For recording, good signal to noise ratio is important, and the four or
five internal cards I've used over the years have all been very poor in
this respect, maybe in the low 40s in dB. 

USB devices I've tried have had much less noise, particularly if the
audio ground side is linked to the tower case independently of the USB
cable.

-- 
Joe

Re: What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[deloptes]

Martin McCormick wrote:

> I went to a local electronics emporium and asked for a
> USB sound card that might possibly work under Linux. I have been
> messing with Linux and USB long enough to know that a number of
> USB sound cards mostly work well enough for one to play and
> record stereo but some special features may not work without
> proprietary drivers available to Windows or Mac users. These
> features are usually not show stoppers so there is no real
> problem.
> 
> The only USB sound card they had was a SoundBlaster XG5
> designed for the gaming market but, I thought, this is probably
> pretty good and, if most everything on it works, how can you go
> wrong?
> 
> Well, here's how. Firstly, I am not bashing Creative Labs
> or the product itself but this is what happens when things become
> overly specialized.
> 
> What I was looking for was a sound card which would
> record stereo. They usually will play, also but recording two
> line-level channels is a must.
> 
> This is a really neat little device in that it has
> optical line input and output ports and a stereo headphone output
> but there is only a microphone input--(game over.)
> 
> I did power it up and ran amixer on it to see if maybe
> there is more to that Mic input than originally meets the eye but there
> is actually less. There are several PCM inputs and maybe one is
> the microphone but it isn't clear what each PCM channel does.
> Again, if there are not two discrete analog line-level audio
> inputs, it can not be used as a normal sound card.
> 
> I rarely need to return products to a store, but I am
> glad this one has a reasonable return policy because the device
> is so highly specialized that there is no way to use it for
> anything but playback only or as, in a game, good sound with a
> Mic for one to talk over.
> 
> Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
> days that record and play stereo under Linux?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions.
> 
> Martin McCormick

I suggest you check here
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main
and try the alsa mailing list.

I would stay to the PCI cards if possible because with USB you will have
lesser speed and quality, but it is up to you.
Consider CPU and hard drive speed as well.

regards

What Mid-range USB Sound Cards Work with Linux?

[Martin McCormick]

I went to a local electronics emporium and asked for a
USB sound card that might possibly work under Linux. I have been
messing with Linux and USB long enough to know that a number of
USB sound cards mostly work well enough for one to play and
record stereo but some special features may not work without
proprietary drivers available to Windows or Mac users. These
features are usually not show stoppers so there is no real
problem.

The only USB sound card they had was a SoundBlaster XG5
designed for the gaming market but, I thought, this is probably
pretty good and, if most everything on it works, how can you go
wrong?

Well, here's how. Firstly, I am not bashing Creative Labs
or the product itself but this is what happens when things become
overly specialized.

What I was looking for was a sound card which would
record stereo. They usually will play, also but recording two
line-level channels is a must.

This is a really neat little device in that it has
optical line input and output ports and a stereo headphone output
but there is only a microphone input--(game over.)

I did power it up and ran amixer on it to see if maybe
there is more to that Mic input than originally meets the eye but there
is actually less. There are several PCM inputs and maybe one is
the microphone but it isn't clear what each PCM channel does.
Again, if there are not two discrete analog line-level audio
inputs, it can not be used as a normal sound card.

I rarely need to return products to a store, but I am
glad this one has a reasonable return policy because the device
is so highly specialized that there is no way to use it for
anything but playback only or as, in a game, good sound with a
Mic for one to talk over.

Basically, are there any good new USB sound cards these
days that record and play stereo under Linux?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Martin McCormick

Re: no more sound cards

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Fri, 2015-05-22 at 21:40 +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
 On Fri, 22 May 2015, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
 
  Are the sound modules loaded? I'm guessing snd_hda_intel for the Intel
  stuff, and other snd_ for the rest of the hardware.
 
after boot, no:
 - lsmod | grep snd
 (empty output)
 - ls /proc/asound
  ls: cannot access /proc/asound: No such file or directory
 
 after: - modprobe snd-emu10k1:
 - lsmod | grep snd
 snd_emu10k1_synth  12923  0
 snd_emux_synth 32071  1 snd_emu10k1_synth
 snd_seq_midi_emul  12678  1 snd_emux_synth
 snd_seq_virmidi12948  1 snd_emux_synth
 snd_emu10k1   129764  1 snd_emu10k1_synth
 snd_util_mem   12659  2 snd_emux_synth,snd_emu10k1
 snd_hwdep  12906  2 snd_emux_synth,snd_emu10k1
 snd_ac97_codec 96151  1 snd_emu10k1
 snd_pcm_oss44124  0
 snd_mixer_oss  21822  1 snd_pcm_oss
 snd_pcm78128  3 snd_pcm_oss,snd_ac97_codec,snd_emu10k1
 snd_seq_midi   12744  0
 snd_seq_midi_event 13124  2 snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi
 snd_rawmidi22284  3 snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_midi
 snd_seq51555  5 
 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi_emul,snd_seq_midi
 snd_seq_device 12980  5 
 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_emu10k1_synth,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_midi
 snd_timer  22010  3 snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_emu10k1
 snd55101  12 
 snd_pcm_oss,snd_ac97_codec,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_device,snd_mixer_oss
 soundcore  12890  1 snd
 ac97_bus   12462  1 snd_ac97_codec

Not sure what is going on here, but you seem to have oss sound, instead
of alsa?

As you seem to have more than one soundcard, try removing/disabling all
but one (I'd guess preferably the Intel one) and see if that narrows it
down.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: no more sound cards

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Sven Arvidsson wrote:



Not sure what is going on here, but you seem to have oss sound, instead
of alsa?


  hi Sven,
  I had both oss and alsa packages installed, and apparently not broken.
  I tried aptitude reinstall for alsa packages, but this gave nothing.
  I could at last get a fix doing:
1/ purge all oss packages
2/ purge all alsa packages (alsa-base alsa-utils libsox-fmt-alsa osspd-alsa}
3/ install these packages
   After that, all sound cards reappeared. I don't know whether step 1/ was
   useful or not.
   I don't tag this thread as Solved as I still don't know how this problem
   occured. I had unattended upgrade enabled, but I thought it only deals
   with security issues, and I found nothing looking at all logs for the night 
of
   May 21 to 22.

   Thanks for your help.

cheers
--
Pierre Frenkiel


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no more sound cards

[Pierre Frenkiel]

hi everybody,
This morning, I found that my sound cards disapeared from my Jessie desktop.
lspci | grep -i audio  gives:

   00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio 
Controller (rev 02)
   01:00.1 Audio device: NVIDIA Corporation Device 0fbc (rev a1)
   05:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 07)

but aplay -l:
   aplay: device_list:268: no soundcards found...
I also noticed that /proc/asounnd also disapeared.
the  snd-cs46xt command restored it but
cat /proc/asound/cards still gives:
--- no soundcards ---
I can't find what could happen last night to explain that.

(it's not a hardware problem, as the sound works perfectly on Windows)

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel


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Re: no more sound cards

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Fri, 2015-05-22 at 11:49 +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
 hi everybody,
 This morning, I found that my sound cards disapeared from my Jessie desktop.
 lspci | grep -i audio  gives:
 
 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio 
 Controller (rev 02)
 01:00.1 Audio device: NVIDIA Corporation Device 0fbc (rev a1)
 05:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 
 07)
 
 but aplay -l:
 aplay: device_list:268: no soundcards found...
 I also noticed that /proc/asounnd also disapeared.
 the  snd-cs46xt command restored it but
  cat /proc/asound/cards still gives:
  --- no soundcards ---
 I can't find what could happen last night to explain that.
 
 (it's not a hardware problem, as the sound works perfectly on Windows)

Are the sound modules loaded? I'm guessing snd_hda_intel for the Intel
stuff, and other snd_ for the rest of the hardware.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: no more sound cards

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Sven Arvidsson wrote:


Are the sound modules loaded? I'm guessing snd_hda_intel for the Intel
stuff, and other snd_ for the rest of the hardware.


  after boot, no:
- lsmod | grep snd
   (empty output)
- ls /proc/asound
ls: cannot access /proc/asound: No such file or directory

after: - modprobe snd-emu10k1:
- lsmod | grep snd
   snd_emu10k1_synth  12923  0
   snd_emux_synth 32071  1 snd_emu10k1_synth
   snd_seq_midi_emul  12678  1 snd_emux_synth
   snd_seq_virmidi12948  1 snd_emux_synth
   snd_emu10k1   129764  1 snd_emu10k1_synth
   snd_util_mem   12659  2 snd_emux_synth,snd_emu10k1
   snd_hwdep  12906  2 snd_emux_synth,snd_emu10k1
   snd_ac97_codec 96151  1 snd_emu10k1
   snd_pcm_oss44124  0
   snd_mixer_oss  21822  1 snd_pcm_oss
   snd_pcm78128  3 snd_pcm_oss,snd_ac97_codec,snd_emu10k1
   snd_seq_midi   12744  0
   snd_seq_midi_event 13124  2 snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi
   snd_rawmidi22284  3 snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_midi
   snd_seq51555  5 
snd_seq_midi_event,snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi_emul,snd_seq_midi
   snd_seq_device 12980  5 
snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_emu10k1_synth,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_midi
   snd_timer  22010  3 snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_emu10k1
   snd55101  12 
snd_pcm_oss,snd_ac97_codec,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_device,snd_mixer_oss
   soundcore  12890  1 snd
   ac97_bus   12462  1 snd_ac97_codec

-ls /proc/asound
 cards  devices  hwdep  modules  oss  pcm  seq  timers  version

-cat /proc/asound/cards
--- no soundcards ---

what is strange is that the file /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf is not used,
as it actually contains a line:
 install snd-emu10k1 /sbin/modprobe --ignore-install snd-emu10k1  { 
/sbin/modprobe --quiet snd-emu10k1-synth ; : ; }

cheers,
--
Pierre Frenkiel


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OT - PCI vs external sound cards for professional audio (was Re: What professional PCIe audio cards do work with Linux?)

[Jon Dowland]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:25:51AM -0500, Rob Owens wrote:
 I use an M-Audio Delta 1010LT on Debian Squeeze.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing!

I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 which I use for some very amateur
messing around. I occasionally hook an Alesis Micron up to it, both
MIDI and the headphone-out into the M-Audio's line-in.

I've read/heard some folks suggest that for serious audio work,
one should use an external sound card (e.g. via USB - such as the
old SB Extigy's), because all PCI cards suffer from some noise due
to their nature (close proximity to the HDD, signal interference on
the mainboard etc.) -- is this basically horseshit? I've never
noticed any such problems with the Audiophile nor with an SB Live!
PCI card, although I probably wouldn't notice some distortions as
I'm not a professional.  I did notice that the on-board sound chips
on both my desktop and successive laptops have had a lot of noise
on their inputs.


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Re: OT - PCI vs external sound cards for professional audio (was Re: What professional PCIe audio cards do work with Linux?)

[Joe]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 09:59:42 +
Jon Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:25:51AM -0500, Rob Owens wrote:
  I use an M-Audio Delta 1010LT on Debian Squeeze.
 
 Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing!
 
 I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 which I use for some very amateur
 messing around. I occasionally hook an Alesis Micron up to it, both
 MIDI and the headphone-out into the M-Audio's line-in.
 
 I've read/heard some folks suggest that for serious audio work,
 one should use an external sound card (e.g. via USB - such as the
 old SB Extigy's), because all PCI cards suffer from some noise due
 to their nature (close proximity to the HDD, signal interference on
 the mainboard etc.) -- is this basically horseshit? 

No, they are good reasons, and I've never seen an on-board or standard
plug-in audio board do better than about 42dB S/N ratio, with most at
35-40dB. I can get about 48dB with a SB USB board, with careful
earthing, which is just about acceptable for recording vinyl sources
for domestic listening, if you clip the 'silences' off at each end. I'm
not prepared to pay a lot of money for my relatively small amount of
vinyl.

These are utterly laughable noise figures when compared with
purpose-built sound equipment, even domestic stuff, and I can remember
being horrified by my SB AWE16 ISA card all those years ago. I assume
that expensive PCI boards can do a bit better, but I'd be surprised if
it's very much better. The inside of a PC is an extremely hostile
environment for audio.

Even a USB device would have to be very carefully designed to begin to
approach the 90dB+ S/N ratio that 16-bit PCM should be capable of, and
it cannot escape being electrically connected to the PC. You really want
to start with a well-designed standalone A/D converter optically coupled
to the recording gear, with a purely analogue power supply and with
mains transients heavily filtered. You'd be surprised how much rubbish a
fridge or freezer thermostat can bash into the mains wiring.

-- 
Joe


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udev rules and Sound Cards Squeeze

[Martin McCormick]

After the upgrade from lenny to squeeze, the sound cards
and CDROM's got all scrambled. The upgrade automatically
generated rules for the CDROM's so those worked after a bit of
tweaking on the symlink path. The two sound cards on the system
need the same attention but no automatic rules were generated so
I am not sure what they will look like.

After unsuccessfully trying to play a sound file which
mplayer said should be playing, I checked the output of the
secondary sound card which is an AWE64 Gold and there it was
playing at a very low speed. arecord -l listed a SB16 as the
primary sound card and no others so things were really messed up
to say the least.

I went to /etc/udev and did 

grep -r -i audio *

which is one of my favorite trouble-shooting techniques when
weird stuff happens and found that there is a file in /etc/udev
called

libmtp7.rules

The very first line says to put this file in rules.d and it
wasn't there so I did.

After a reboot, the first sound card which is a CS4236B
mounted on the mother board was now the primary sound card and
seems to be working perfectly so I did get that card back. The
AWe64 is now not listed if one does a arecord -l command.

Both the CS4236B and SB16AWE64Gold do show up by name in syslog
after a reboot and they both used to work under lenny so I
imagine the SB16AWE will rise again if the right rules are used.
The libmtp7.rules file does not mention any sound cards by name
but appears to take care of the permissions that can keep
non-root users from accessing /dev/dsp among other things. After
installing that file in the right place, /dev/dsp became
accessible from a user account that belonged to the audio group.

Things now act right except for no second sound card
yet. What can I do to either generate sound card rules or find
some already-generated sound card rules that can be addapted to
this system?

When things are working again, there should be /dev/dsp0
and /dev/dsp1. This is where udev should truly shine as there
used to be a race condition which could cause the wrong sound
card to be first or the second sound device to not always make
correctly after a reboot.

Both the CS4236B and AWE64 Gold show up in the PNP
report in syslog so they do not list as PCI devices.

Thanks for any help about how one generates rules for
sound cards.

Martin McCormick


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Re: Two sound cards. SOLVED

[Sian Mountbatten]

On 24/02/12 02:30, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 12:47 +, Brian wrote:

On Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 11:42:59 +, Sian Mountbatten wrote:


Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default
sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's
something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then
entering the CA0106 module as card 0.

Does anybody know the details?


This should start you off:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/09/msg00285.html


If it shouldn't be outdated, I suspect directly using the link in your
link is what does the job:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/FAQ042




With people's help, the matter is now SOLVED. The CA0106 is card 0 and 
is the default sound card. TVM for all your help.



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Two sound cards. How to make the CA0106 the default.

[Sian Mountbatten]

Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default 
sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's 
something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then 
entering the CA0106 module as card 0.


Does anybody know the details?
--
Sian Mountbatten
www.poenikatu.co.uk


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Re: Two sound cards. How to make the CA0106 the default.

[Sian Mountbatten]

On 02/23/2012 12:10 PM, Sian Mountbatten wrote:

Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default
sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's
something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then
entering the CA0106 module as card 0.

Does anybody know the details?
--
Sian Mountbatten
www.poenikatu.co.uk



It's ok, folks. Got the old message. Problem solved.


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Re: Two sound cards. How to make the CA0106 the default.

[Brian]

On Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 11:42:59 +, Sian Mountbatten wrote:

 Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default  
 sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's  
 something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then  
 entering the CA0106 module as card 0.

 Does anybody know the details?

This should start you off:

   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/09/msg00285.html


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Re: Two sound cards. How to make the CA0106 the default.

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 12:25 +, Sian Mountbatten wrote:
 On 02/23/2012 12:10 PM, Sian Mountbatten wrote:
  Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default
  sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's
  something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then
  entering the CA0106 module as card 0.
 
  Does anybody know the details?
  --
  Sian Mountbatten
  www.poenikatu.co.uk
 
 
 It's ok, folks. Got the old message. Problem solved.

Please share the way to solve this issue with the community and mark
this reply with solved in the subject.

Does it still work like described for FAQ 13?
http://www.64studio.com/faq_user

- Ralf


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Re: Two sound cards. How to make the CA0106 the default.

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2012-02-23 at 12:47 +, Brian wrote:
 On Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 11:42:59 +, Sian Mountbatten wrote:
 
  Does anybody know how I can make the CA0106 card on my m/c the default  
  sound card? At the moment, card 0 is the Intel ICH5. I know it's  
  something to do with modprobe. Removing the two kernel modules and then  
  entering the CA0106 module as card 0.
 
  Does anybody know the details?
 
 This should start you off:
 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/09/msg00285.html

If it shouldn't be outdated, I suspect directly using the link in your
link is what does the job:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/FAQ042


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Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[Ralf Mardorf]

   Forwarded Message 
  From: Martin McCormick mar...@x.it.okstate.edu
  To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
  Subject: Two Sound Cards, I hope.
  Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 23:22:27 -0500

  I was hoping to end up with /dev/dsp0 and /dev/dsp1 in
  order to record two audio feeds at once.

You're thinking of using two un-synced audio devices? Dunno if this is
ok, if you record two separated audio inputs, that should be used
separated, but I'm sure it won't work, if you try to do a
multi-track-recoding. For multi-track recordings you can use two of the
same non-professional audio cards, make them one virtual card and sync
them by SPDIF. Professional audio cards have other options. I don't know
your devices, but at least an onboard device for sure isn't a
professional audio device.

I'm using a RME HDSP AIO, this is an expensive professional audio card,
but I also have got two TerraTec EWX 24/96, a non-professional card,
that costs around 30,- EUR at Ebay.

   Forwarded Message 
  From: Victor Nitu vic...@debian-linux.ro
  To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
  Subject: Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.
  Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 07:27:59 +0300

  Are you sure the linux-firmware-nonfree package is installed?
  What's the output of lspci (strip the unnecessary lines, but look for 
  the sound cards there)?
  I suggest first checking the general awareness of the system regarding 
  plugged in devices. Then we dig further.

Before you try to get both cards working, reconsider what I mentioned
about sync.

What should the two cards be used for?

Regards,

Ralf


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Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[Ralf Mardorf]

PS:

Note, even different professional devices that can be synced
professional, can't be synced to clean phases.


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Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 23:22:27 -0500, Martin McCormick wrote:

 I have a Dell Optiplex with the on-board sound chip set which works fine
 but I wanted to also use an AWE64 Gold as a second sound device. The
 AWE64 stole the show when I plugged it in to the mother board and the
 on-board sound device disappeared. If I try
 asoundconf list, it shows only the S16 device and nothing else.

(...)

Ensure that BIOS has not disabled the onboard audio chipset. If it's 
enabled but it does not get recognized, maybe you can enforce a mode 
different than Auto :-?

Also, recheck if the PCI slot used for the AWE64 is not shared nor tagged 
as special to avoid any conflict, motherboards makers specify this in 
the board's manual.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[Martin McCormick]

I have a Dell Optiplex with the on-board sound chip set
which works fine but I wanted to also use an AWE64 Gold as a
second sound device. The AWE64 stole the show when I plugged it
in to the mother board and the on-board sound device
disappeared. If I try
asoundconf list, it shows only the S16 device and nothing else.

I was hoping to end up with /dev/dsp0 and /dev/dsp1 in
order to record two audio feeds at once.

The AWE64 is plug and play so I may have to do something
to the on-board chip set to get it back as it is also useful for
the type of recording I am doing.

I am somewhat lucky in that the AWE64 did come right up
and began producing proper audio on the next boot-up so getting
the on-board chip set is all that is lacking.

I see from a few Google searches that others have had a
rougher time getting their AWE64s to work.

Thanks for any suggestions. The on-board chips come
right back when the AWE64 is removed.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group


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Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[Victor Nitu]

On 07/09/2011 07:22 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

I have a Dell Optiplex with the on-board sound chip set
which works fine but I wanted to also use an AWE64 Gold as a
second sound device. The AWE64 stole the show when I plugged it
in to the mother board and the on-board sound device
disappeared. If I try
asoundconf list, it shows only the S16 device and nothing else.

I was hoping to end up with /dev/dsp0 and /dev/dsp1 in
order to record two audio feeds at once.

The AWE64 is plug and play so I may have to do something
to the on-board chip set to get it back as it is also useful for
the type of recording I am doing.

I am somewhat lucky in that the AWE64 did come right up
and began producing proper audio on the next boot-up so getting
the on-board chip set is all that is lacking.

I see from a few Google searches that others have had a
rougher time getting their AWE64s to work.

Thanks for any suggestions. The on-board chips come
right back when the AWE64 is removed.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
Systems Engineer
OSU Information Technology Department Telecommunications Services Group



Are you sure the linux-firmware-nonfree package is installed?
What's the output of lspci (strip the unnecessary lines, but look for 
the sound cards there)?
I suggest first checking the general awareness of the system regarding 
plugged in devices. Then we dig further.



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Re: Two Sound Cards, I hope.

[William Hopkins]

On 07/08/11 at 11:22pm, Martin McCormick wrote:
   I have a Dell Optiplex with the on-board sound chip set
 which works fine but I wanted to also use an AWE64 Gold as a
 second sound device. The AWE64 stole the show when I plugged it
 in to the mother board and the on-board sound device
 disappeared. If I try
 asoundconf list, it shows only the S16 device and nothing else.
 
   I was hoping to end up with /dev/dsp0 and /dev/dsp1 in
 order to record two audio feeds at once.

Those devices are for OSS, and modern linux distributions tend to use ALSA
(with optional layers on top such as pulseaudio or ESD)
Long story short, you don't need them. Your devices should show up with aplay -l
 
   The AWE64 is plug and play so I may have to do something
 to the on-board chip set to get it back as it is also useful for
 the type of recording I am doing.

A lot of times onboard devices will be disabled when you plug in an equivalent
(sound, video, and networking are all susceptible). Look through your BIOS and
play with options until you start seeing it detected in your bootup sequence
(dmesg|grep) or via lspci.

-- 
Liam


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Nick Lidakis]

On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 09:31:56PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote:
 If you're going for a USB DAC, how about this one:
 http://www.usbdacs.com/
 :drooling: ...

I own one of those...


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:52:45 -0500
Nick Lidakis nlida...@verizon.net wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 03:40:33PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
   On 20091015_144147, Nick Lidakis wrote:
   Equipment: 
   Adcom GTP-450 Tuner
   Adcom GCD-700 CDcarousel/player
   Adcom GFA-5000 dual audio amp
   Vandersteen Model 2 woofer/mid/tweeter combo (2 ea)
   
   I want to listen to classical music in the family room after my twin
   8yr old grand-daughters have gone to bed. So dedicated listening but
   not dedicated space. No interest in whole-house sound system. No
   interest in 'quality' head-phones.
   
   I have been out of touch with the high-end audio world since I bought
   this system. I had never heard of Pass Labs until you mentioned them
  
  Get yourself a qood quality turntable, Linn Sondek comes to mind, and
  some decent vinyl and then you are talking high end.
  
  More and more people are turning back to records as they realise
  anything else is just a compromise.
 
 And don't forget a good quality phono preamp, as I'm sure that much gear
 these days does not  have such facilities. Might as well throw in good 
 quality
 record cleaner, stylus gauge, and record brush. And if anything else is just
 a compromise then you might as well throw in a good quality turntable speed
 controller. VPI makes for a penny under a grand USD. You'll also need a good
 quality turn table stand to isolate it from mechanical vibrations. If you've
 got problems with floating floors, etc., then you'll need something with more 
 mass and possibly fillable with lad shot, i.e., something a 'lil better than 
 good
 quality.
 
 Don't get me wrong; I *love* the sound of my VPI turntable, but sometimes,
 like at the end of wicked sixteen hour shift, the last thing I wanna do is
 futz with the record brush, stylus cleaning solution, etc., etc., when I need
 to salve my soul. 'Tis easier to pickup the Nokia N800 (instant on) and play
 some tunes via my tubed USB DAC. And please don't think for a minute that a
 quality USB DAC playing FLAC files is that far removed, these days, from a
 decent vinyl setup.
 
 Paul, if you're still following, did you happen to hear about the Devilsound
 Labs USB DAC? Link: http://www.devilsound.com/DAC/

If you're going for a USB DAC, how about this one:
http://www.usbdacs.com/
:drooling: ...

 
 


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Nick Lidakis]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 03:40:33PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
  On 20091015_144147, Nick Lidakis wrote:
  Equipment: 
  Adcom GTP-450 Tuner
  Adcom GCD-700 CDcarousel/player
  Adcom GFA-5000 dual audio amp
  Vandersteen Model 2 woofer/mid/tweeter combo (2 ea)
  
  I want to listen to classical music in the family room after my twin
  8yr old grand-daughters have gone to bed. So dedicated listening but
  not dedicated space. No interest in whole-house sound system. No
  interest in 'quality' head-phones.
  
  I have been out of touch with the high-end audio world since I bought
  this system. I had never heard of Pass Labs until you mentioned them
 
 Get yourself a qood quality turntable, Linn Sondek comes to mind, and
 some decent vinyl and then you are talking high end.
 
 More and more people are turning back to records as they realise
 anything else is just a compromise.

And don't forget a good quality phono preamp, as I'm sure that much gear
these days does not  have such facilities. Might as well throw in good quality
record cleaner, stylus gauge, and record brush. And if anything else is just
a compromise then you might as well throw in a good quality turntable speed
controller. VPI makes for a penny under a grand USD. You'll also need a good
quality turn table stand to isolate it from mechanical vibrations. If you've
got problems with floating floors, etc., then you'll need something with more 
mass and possibly fillable with lad shot, i.e., something a 'lil better than 
good
quality.

Don't get me wrong; I *love* the sound of my VPI turntable, but sometimes,
like at the end of wicked sixteen hour shift, the last thing I wanna do is
futz with the record brush, stylus cleaning solution, etc., etc., when I need
to salve my soul. 'Tis easier to pickup the Nokia N800 (instant on) and play
some tunes via my tubed USB DAC. And please don't think for a minute that a
quality USB DAC playing FLAC files is that far removed, these days, from a
decent vinyl setup.

Paul, if you're still following, did you happen to hear about the Devilsound
Labs USB DAC? Link: http://www.devilsound.com/DAC/


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 On 20091015_144147, Nick Lidakis wrote:
  I have a couple of questions for you before I delve into details of my
  recommendaion.
  
  What kind of hi-fi are we talking about? Do you have a dedicated
  listening space or is this for casual listening when doing other
  things, i.e., are we talking JVC or Pass Labs?
  
  How important is it that the software/hardware be GPL free? Would you
  consider using something Debian based if it offered you truly hi-fi
  results?
 
 Equipment: 
 Adcom GTP-450 Tuner
 Adcom GCD-700 CDcarousel/player
 Adcom GFA-5000 dual audio amp
 Vandersteen Model 2 woofer/mid/tweeter combo (2 ea)
 
 I want to listen to classical music in the family room after my twin
 8yr old grand-daughters have gone to bed. So dedicated listening but
 not dedicated space. No interest in whole-house sound system. No
 interest in 'quality' head-phones.
 
 I have been out of touch with the high-end audio world since I bought
 this system. I had never heard of Pass Labs until you mentioned them

Get yourself a qood quality turntable, Linn Sondek comes to mind, and
some decent vinyl and then you are talking high end.

More and more people are turning back to records as they realise
anything else is just a compromise.

-- 
Chris.


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Andrei Popescu]

On Fri,16.Oct.09, 13:50:04, Paul E Condon wrote:

 electronics store. I have never seen balanced output of stereo audio
 in a single jack on a computer. (An example of RC time constant

I definitely recall reading about sound cards with balanced outputs.  
M-Audio would be a good start...

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[ghe]

On Oct 17, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Andrei Popescu wrote:


On Fri,16.Oct.09, 13:50:04, Paul E Condon wrote:


electronics store. I have never seen balanced output of stereo audio
in a single jack on a computer. (An example of RC time constant


I definitely recall reading about sound cards with balanced outputs.
M-Audio would be a good start...


ALSA has a driver for this amazing piece of hardware (balanced IO  
available):


http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdsp_9632.php

--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com




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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091017_071352, ghe wrote:

 On Oct 17, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Andrei Popescu wrote:

 On Fri,16.Oct.09, 13:50:04, Paul E Condon wrote:

 electronics store. I have never seen balanced output of stereo audio
 in a single jack on a computer. (An example of RC time constant

 I definitely recall reading about sound cards with balanced outputs.
 M-Audio would be a good start...

 ALSA has a driver for this amazing piece of hardware (balanced IO  
 available):

 http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdsp_9632.php

 -- 
 Glenn English
 g...@slsware.com

Yes, this is amazing. You have put me onto something that I was totally
unaware of and delighted to find.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Nick Lidakis]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 I have been out of touch with the high-end audio world since I bought
 this system. I had never heard of Pass Labs until you mentioned them
 in your email. Wikipedia puts them in the class where Adcom was when I
 bought. I don't want to re-join the craziness of puriest hi-fi audio,
 but I do want to investigate upgrading the way that the digital music
 that I have now on CDs is stored.

Nelson Pass did have a hand in a few Adcom circuit designs. I
would say the the Pass Labs equipment is a bit more expensive
although higher performing than the Adcom stuff. Mr. Pass is unique
in that he is heavily involved in the DIY community and many of his
desgins are released (for non-commercial purposes) to the community.

From the Wikipedia article:

Unusually for a leading figure producing commercial equipment, Pass
has also long been very supportive of the DIY audio community, by way
of published articles (Notably in The Audio Amateur) and schematics
of out of production models on the Pass Labs site and more recently
the First Watt site. Extremely unusually for such a noted figure, he
is readily contactable and frequently interacts directly (if tersely)
with audio hobbyists individually: all of which hobbiests are
extremely grateful for and for which he is held in very high
esteem.[5][6][7] His nickname among the DIY audio community is Papa.

You can find at this forum: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/
His DIY website: http://www.passdiy.com/default.html

 I think it ought to be possible to copy data that is now on CD onto
 modern hard-disk and play it with quality that is no worse than I have
 now. 

Yes, I agree. You can use programs such as grip to get accurate rips
of your CD's and store them as FLAC files on really big cheap hard
disks. Some people swear by EAC (Exact Audio Copy), but it only runs on
Windows. Not an option for me no matter what they claim. 

 I accept the inferiority of CD to true purist hi-fi. (CD is good
 enough for me, but I can't abide earphones.)

In my humble listening, CD's ain't all that bad considering that
they've have a long time to smooth out a lot of kinks. Besides, you
can get a good amount of music in high resolution (24 bit/96kh and
greaters) formats these days, e.g. http://hdtracks.com Trent Reznor,
of Nine Inch Nails fame, released one of his albums for *free* in a
variety of formats including 24bit/96khx FLAC and WAV. 
Link: http://theslip.nin.com/

 I believe in free speach, free beer, and caveat emptor. If you have an
 idea that involves Debian, please discuss it here. I may not be able
 to use it myself, but it might be helpful to someone else. 
 
Ok. Simply, Voyage Linux + MPD + PC Engines Engines ALIX single board
computer = audiophile grade open sauce goodness at 4 watts total power
draw. 

Voyage Linux is a Debian based distro modified to run on
embedded and low power x86 machines. It's desinged to run entirely in
RAM and can load from compact flash cards as small as 128MB. Images
are available for the PC Engines ALIX series boards. Link:
http://linux.voyage.hk/

MPD is music player daemon. The daemon runs on the the headless ALIX
boards and plays your FLAC files. The client which controls MPD can be
on any other machine on your network. This can be your PC, laptop,
PDA, bluetotooth phones, IRDA remotes, etc., etc., etc. There are web
clients, Java clients, ncurses clients, GTK and QT clients, Windows
and Max OS X clients, iPod/iTouch clients... In other words, you have
many options for how you want to control your music. 
Links: http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Music_Player_Daemon_Wiki
   http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Clients
   
The PC Engines ALIX single board computers are small, power efficient,
AMD Geode x86 based single devices. They are totally fanless and dead
silent, a prerequisite for my dedicated listeing space. They're mainly used as
firewall/routers and wireless access points. I had been using one
their previous WRAP boards (and still do!) with m0n0wall as my primary 
firewall. 
When PC Engines started to offer the ALIX, which now sports USB ports, I
got the idea to use the board as a USB music server feeding an external
USB DAC. I use both the ALIX 2d2 and the 3d2 as music servers. The
boards are relativley inexpensive (approx $125 USD for the board   $15 for 
case) 
for the flexibilty that they offer. Links: http://www.pcengines.ch/alix3d2.htm
 http://www.pcengines.ch/alix2d2.htm

Other reasons I am fond of the PC Engnines boards are their power
effiecncy and their general purpose desgin. My ALIX never draws more
than 4 watts of power (using s Kill-A-Watt meter) when playing files,
and they're general purpose desgins means that, in the future,  I'll be 
able to recylcle them for other uses in the event that i stop suing them as
music servers.

My setup is as follows: My Debian desktop, which resides in the
bedroom, is where I rip all my CD's to FLAC, and is also setup as an
NFS 

Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 So far the responses that I have gotten comfirm without a doubt that
 what I was told by the sales person in Best Buy is not at all the
 whole story. There is *a lot* more to the solution than just buying an
 adapter cable. Mention of Burr Brown 24bit ladder DACs brought back memories
 of technical problems that simply have no solution via software alone.
 
It's definitely not the whole story, but it's a good starting point.
The cables are pretty cheap (less than $20 in the US) and it'll get
you started.  It would probably be beneficial for you to put together a
cheap test system to see how you like it, before you spend big bucks on
better hardware.  It'll also give you time to experiment with different
music players on your computer to see which you like best.

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091016_083137, Rob Owens wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:51:52PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
  So far the responses that I have gotten comfirm without a doubt that
  what I was told by the sales person in Best Buy is not at all the
  whole story. There is *a lot* more to the solution than just buying an
  adapter cable. Mention of Burr Brown 24bit ladder DACs brought back memories
  of technical problems that simply have no solution via software alone.
  
 It's definitely not the whole story, but it's a good starting point.
 The cables are pretty cheap (less than $20 in the US) and it'll get
 you started.  It would probably be beneficial for you to put together a
 cheap test system to see how you like it, before you spend big bucks on
 better hardware.  It'll also give you time to experiment with different
 music players on your computer to see which you like best.
 

IMHO, I already have better hardware, but its a fair distance away
from where I have my computers. To do the test, I would have to buy a
rather long adapter cable (~100ft). The cable would be carrying
analog signal. Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
the high freq. part of the signal.

I think the test would only show me something that I already know.

Thanks.
-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[ghe]

On Oct 16, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Paul E Condon wrote:


Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
the high freq. part of the signal.


Not if it's low impedance balanced, it doesn't. Not at 100' anyway.

Use the hardware Deutsche Grammophone, etc. use -- your recordings  
aren't going to sound any better than that...


--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com




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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[John Hasler]

Glenn writes:
 Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
 the high freq. part of the signal.

 Not if it's low impedance balanced, it doesn't.

Not any impedance if it is terminated.

 Not at 100' anyway.

Right.  You can't hear 1Mhz.
-- 
John Hasler


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RE: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end musicsystems

[David Christensen]

Paul E Condon wrote:

 long adapter cable (~100ft). The cable would be carrying analog
signal.

Unbalanced signals, such as might be found on computer sound card 1/8
TRS jacks and audio equipment RCA jacks, are susceptible to common-mode
noise and ground loops.  If your computer sound card line out jack and
your pre-amplifier/ receiver line input jacks are grounded to your
electrical power distribution system, directly or indirectly (e.g.
3-prong power cable to anything connected to either), connecting your
computer to your audio gear will create a large single-turn transformer
with your equipment and house as the core.  Induced currents would
result in common-mode noise; you might hear your electrical appliances
through your audio system.  (I was able to hear my refrigerator
switching on and off in one apartment; I can see my garbage disposal
operating in my current house.)  Electrical system ground faults, arc
welding, etc., could damage your audio gear and/or computer.


Balanced signals are designed to reject common-mode noise.  I've sent
line-level public address signals from a mixer to a series of amplified
loudspeakers using ~800 ft. of XLR cables with no perceived loss in
quality.


Isolation transformers can connect balanced and/or unbalanced systems,
and break ground loops.  (Good direct boxes incorporate a transformer
and include a ground lift switch.)


The fast, cheap answer is to buy 100+ ft. of twisted, shielded pair
(TSP) cable, run it, make up the ends, and take a listen.  Adding load
resistors at the audio end might reduce common-mode noise (observe sound
card line out load impedance specifications).  If it sounds okay, tape/
staple down the cable and you're done.


Two 100+ ft. cables would give you less cross talk.


Two isolation transformers/ direct boxes and two cables would be a
reasonable best effort.


That said, I still think you'd be better off with an HTPC (with wireless
networking).


HTH,

David


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091016_115141, ghe wrote:

 On Oct 16, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Paul E Condon wrote:

 Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
 the high freq. part of the signal.

 Not if it's low impedance balanced, it doesn't. Not at 100' anyway.

 Use the hardware Deutsche Grammophone, etc. use -- your recordings aren't 
 going to sound any better than that...

 -- 
 Glenn English
 g...@slsware.com

Impedance and balance are two different things. Impedance only becomes
an issue when the wave length of the signal on the cable becomes
comparable to the length of the cable run. Balance OTOH has only to do
with rejection of common mode environmental noise, e.g. hum pickup, not
with loss of signal amplitude.

In addition to impedance and balance, there is also hi-freq. loss due
to RC time constant of the cable. Cheap cables have small center
conductor, and thin layer of insulation. Small conductor is higher
resistance (R). Thin insulation is higher capacitance (C). Both make
hi-freq loss greater. I have never seen wire size/ insultation
thickness spec.s on the label of any audio cable in a consumer
electronics store. I have never seen balanced output of stereo audio
in a single jack on a computer. (An example of RC time constant
effects, is the difficulties CPU chip makers have with on-chip signal
timing. The wave length of the signal is vastly larger than the chip
size, but still the signal at the receiving end of a via rises
noticeable more slowly than at the sending end.)

But this is theoretical knowledge. It precludes me from believing much
of the marketing pitch of consumer grade electronics. I'm hoping to
find some practical information that is in better conformance the
established theory.

I'm older now than when I bought the hifi. Hearing declines with
age. But I can still tell the difference between the sound from my
computer and from my hifi. It may be that the age of real hifi has
passed, just as the age of the vacuum tube has passed, but I'm hoping
not (for real hifi. I don't mind the new dominance of transistors.)

Thanks for reading to the end of this rant.
-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[ghe]

On Oct 16, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Paul E Condon wrote:


Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
the high freq. part of the signal.


Not if it's low impedance balanced, it doesn't. Not at 100' anyway.


Impedance and balance are two different things. Impedance only becomes
an issue when the wave length of the signal on the cable becomes
comparable to the length of the cable run.


That's interesting -- I never heard that. Maybe I just never dealt  
with cables long enough. I'd like to learn more about it (off list  
would be more appropriate, I suspect).



Balance OTOH has only to do
with rejection of common mode environmental noise, e.g. hum pickup,  
not

with loss of signal amplitude.


Yup. But hums and pops and buzzes and stuff definitely count as  
degradation.



But this is theoretical knowledge. It precludes me from believing much
of the marketing pitch of consumer grade electronics. I'm hoping to
find some practical information that is in better conformance the
established theory.


To an old audio engineer, that's gratifying to hear: today's hifi  
marketing is astounding BS. And if you want some really practical info  
about bandwidth and noise, get an oscillator and a meter and measure it.


I think you'll find that, coming from a modern solid state amp  
(vanishingly low output impedance), you'll be hard pressed to find  
significant high frequency loss on just about any 100' long piece of  
cable. Your definition of significant is allowed to differ from  
mine, however.



I'm older now than when I bought the hifi. Hearing declines with
age. But I can still tell the difference between the sound from my
computer and from my hifi.


I'd first suspect the DAC/ADCs and the analog circuitry in the  
computers -- in yours and the one that digitized in the first place.  
Or maybe the digital sound's sample rate. Or, of course, the file  
could be (badly done) mp3 or one of its buds...



It may be that the age of real hifi has
passed, just as the age of the vacuum tube has passed, but I'm hoping
not (for real hifi. I don't mind the new dominance of transistors.)


I was around at the transition. And the early solid state amps were,  
indeed, pretty nasty. Then somebody discovered how easy and cheap op- 
amps were :-(


But they've learned how to work with silicon, and things are much  
better now. These days, a properly designed solid state amplifier is  
at least as good as could be done with vacuum tubes -- and a lot  
quieter and more reliable.



Thanks for reading to the end of this rant.


You're welcome :-)

--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com




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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091016_151335, ghe wrote:

 On Oct 16, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Paul E Condon wrote:

 Analog signals degrade on long cable runs, particularly
 the high freq. part of the signal.

 Not if it's low impedance balanced, it doesn't. Not at 100' anyway.

 Impedance and balance are two different things. Impedance only becomes
 an issue when the wave length of the signal on the cable becomes
 comparable to the length of the cable run.

 That's interesting -- I never heard that. Maybe I just never dealt with 
 cables long enough. I'd like to learn more about it (off list would be 
 more appropriate, I suspect).

Actually my experience was with cable about 100m long, but with
signals that were ~10ns pulses. We wanted to measure time of arrival
to somewhat better than 1ns. The speed of light is about 30cm/ns.
Because of the dielectric constant of the insulator in coax cable, the
speed of signals in cable is close to 20cm/ns. We used RG58U cable
which is designed to have a characteristic impedance of 50 ohms.
Without termination, pulses would reflect off the ends of the cable
and 'echo' back and forth in the cable. Echos of earlier pulses would
corrupt the wave form of following pulses, and really mess things up.

If anyone claims that this sort of thing corrupts analog audio signals
in a significant way, I would mark it as marketing obfuscation, not
proper electrical engineering. But I'm really not sure. I don't
believe proper double blind listening tests have ever been conducted. 
Such tests are expensive, and the question really doesn't have the
social importance of drug safety and efficacy.

I do know that I can tell the difference between hifi system sound and
desktop PC sound and I prefer the former. And I have a lot of
theoretical knowledge that inclines me to be skeptical of explanations
offered by marketing people.

OTOH, almost anything learned during the early days telephony should be
taken into account when doing the analog part of a modern sound system.
All sorts of unwanted sounds and distortions of wanted sounds can happen.
Much of that has dropped form view in the mad dash to computerize the
world.


 Balance OTOH has only to do
 with rejection of common mode environmental noise, e.g. hum pickup, not
 with loss of signal amplitude.

 Yup. But hums and pops and buzzes and stuff definitely count as  
 degradation.

Well yes, of course. It was being suggested that I just buy an adapter
cable and try it. But I know already that an adapter cable alone will
give performance that I find unsatisfactory. I gave one good reason,
you give three more. Any one of them, alone, would invalidate the
test.


 But this is theoretical knowledge. It precludes me from believing much
 of the marketing pitch of consumer grade electronics. I'm hoping to
 find some practical information that is in better conformance the
 established theory.

 To an old audio engineer, that's gratifying to hear: today's hifi  
 marketing is astounding BS. And if you want some really practical info  
 about bandwidth and noise, get an oscillator and a meter and measure it.

 I think you'll find that, coming from a modern solid state amp  
 (vanishingly low output impedance), you'll be hard pressed to find  
 significant high frequency loss on just about any 100' long piece of  
 cable. Your definition of significant is allowed to differ from mine, 
 however.

 I'm older now than when I bought the hifi. Hearing declines with
 age. But I can still tell the difference between the sound from my
 computer and from my hifi.

 I'd first suspect the DAC/ADCs and the analog circuitry in the computers 
 -- in yours and the one that digitized in the first place. Or maybe the 
 digital sound's sample rate. Or, of course, the file could be (badly done) 
 mp3 or one of its buds...

 It may be that the age of real hifi has
 passed, just as the age of the vacuum tube has passed, but I'm hoping
 not (for real hifi. I don't mind the new dominance of transistors.)

 I was around at the transition. And the early solid state amps were,  
 indeed, pretty nasty. Then somebody discovered how easy and cheap op-amps 
 were :-(

Op-amps were not easy until Nyquist published his famous criterion. So by the
time transistors came on the scene that had been done, but most hifi firms
didn't want to pay their engineers to read his papers.


 But they've learned how to work with silicon, and things are much better 
 now. These days, a properly designed solid state amplifier is at least as 
 good as could be done with vacuum tubes -- and a lot quieter and more 
 reliable.

 Thanks for reading to the end of this rant.

 You're welcome :-)

 -- 
 Glenn English
 g...@slsware.com




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Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Nick Lidakis]

I have a couple of questions for you before I delve into details of my
recommendaion.

What kind of hi-fi are we talking about? Do you have a dedicated
listening space or is this for casual listening when doing other
things, i.e., are we talking JVC or Pass Labs?

How important is it that the software/hardware be GPL free? Would you
consider using something Debian based if it offered you truly hi-fi
results?


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091015_144147, Nick Lidakis wrote:
 I have a couple of questions for you before I delve into details of my
 recommendaion.
 
 What kind of hi-fi are we talking about? Do you have a dedicated
 listening space or is this for casual listening when doing other
 things, i.e., are we talking JVC or Pass Labs?
 
 How important is it that the software/hardware be GPL free? Would you
 consider using something Debian based if it offered you truly hi-fi
 results?

Equipment: 
Adcom GTP-450 Tuner
Adcom GCD-700 CDcarousel/player
Adcom GFA-5000 dual audio amp
Vandersteen Model 2 woofer/mid/tweeter combo (2 ea)

I want to listen to classical music in the family room after my twin
8yr old grand-daughters have gone to bed. So dedicated listening but
not dedicated space. No interest in whole-house sound system. No
interest in 'quality' head-phones.

I have been out of touch with the high-end audio world since I bought
this system. I had never heard of Pass Labs until you mentioned them
in your email. Wikipedia puts them in the class where Adcom was when I
bought. I don't want to re-join the craziness of puriest hi-fi audio,
but I do want to investigate upgrading the way that the digital music
that I have now on CDs is stored.

I think it ought to be possible to copy data that is now on CD onto
modern hard-disk and play it with quality that is no worse than I have
now. I accept the inferiority of CD to true purist hi-fi. (CD is good
enough for me, but I can't abide earphones.)

I believe in free speach, free beer, and caveat emptor. If you have an
idea that involves Debian, please discuss it here. I may not be able
to use it myself, but it might be helpful to someone else. 

So far the responses that I have gotten comfirm without a doubt that
what I was told by the sales person in Best Buy is not at all the
whole story. There is *a lot* more to the solution than just buying an
adapter cable. Mention of Burr Brown 24bit ladder DACs brought back memories
of technical problems that simply have no solution via software alone.

Even if this information doesn't fit with your expectations, please make
your recommendation.
-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[steef]

H.S. wrote:

Rob Owens wrote:
  

On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 08:06:51PM +0200, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:


Certainly not. At best it is equally bad. (On the other hand, apparently
most people don't mind listening to music at low sound quality).
YMMV.
I use *professional* grade sound cards, because I like good sound quality.

  

Can you recommend a professional sound card?



Not sure if this is professional grade, but I have used M-audio 2496
(http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496.html). It has
worked like a charm. Used it for live music recording and also for
playback via a mixer. The system is Ubuntu based, but should have no
problem in Debian either.

Good luck.


  

hi johannes (if you read this):

...interesting!

do you happen to know if ALSA can initialize the chip of M-audio 2496? 
and, what is the code of the chip of this card?


regards,

steef


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[H.S.]

steef wrote:
 H.S. wrote:

 Not sure if this is professional grade, but I have used M-audio 2496
 (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496.html). It has
 worked like a charm. Used it for live music recording and also for
 playback via a mixer. The system is Ubuntu based, but should have no
 problem in Debian either.

 Good luck.


   
 hi johannes (if you read this):
 
 ...interesting!
 
 do you happen to know if ALSA can initialize the chip of M-audio 2496?
 and, what is the code of the chip of this card?

er ... looks like your query was directed at me.

The M-audio 2496, as far as I recall, worked out of the box with alsa on
Ubuntu (since Gutsy, did it have 2.6.24 kernel). So I would expect it to
work out of the box on any typical Debian desktop computer with any
recent or new kernel. In fact, I would expect the card to work with
pulseaudio as well.

regards,
-HS



-- 

Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding
newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just
filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without
ever having been read.


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 On Monday 05 October 2009 13:20:14 Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
  Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
   It is purely digital.  16-bit (not sure if this is floating- or
   fixed-point), stereo, 44.1 kHz samples, IIRC.
 
  What's the difference between 16-bit floating-point and 16-bit
  fixed-point? I always thought those are just integers.

On floating-point, you can encode a higher dynamic range, but the precison
varies.  Fixed-point has the same precision on the entire range.

But you could have a function to map the integer range to a larger dynamic
range too (this is called quantization).  This sort of encoding should not
be confused with regular floating-point.

CDs use PCM, which _does_ have a quantization function. 

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

 Some audio codecs use floating-point, which is like a float or double or 
 long double in the C programing language.  Some bits are the exponent 
 (usually with a bias) and some bits are the mantissa.  Other audio codecs use 
 fixed-point, where the 16-bits simply a signed integer (or possibly an 
 unsigned integer modified by a bias).

No codec worth its salt will use 16 bits, be it fixed point or floating
point.  Usually floating-point codecs will use standard precision or long
precision floating point (which is 80 bits, I think).  And most integer
codecs will use 32-bit or 64-bit fixed-point arithmetric.  They use that to
decode the PCM stream (which is 16-bit).

-- 
  One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[steef]

H.S. wrote:

steef wrote:
  


er ... looks like your query was directed at me.

The M-audio 2496, as far as I recall, worked out of the box with alsa on
Ubuntu (since Gutsy, did it have 2.6.24 kernel). So I would expect it to
work out of the box on any typical Debian desktop computer with any
recent or new kernel. In fact, I would expect the card to work with
pulseaudio as well.

regards,
-HS



  

thanks,

steef


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 09:53:21PM -0700, Mark wrote:
 Rob wrote:
 --
 Since you care about the sound quality, I'd recommend encoding with
 flac.  That's lossless, so there is no sound quality difference between
 flac-encoded music and music straight from the CD.Forget about mp3.
 It sounds horrible, in my opinion.  High pitch sounds like cymbals sound
 swishy.  Ogg vorbis is a lot better sounding than mp3, but flac is
 still the best.  I can here the difference and I'm using my onboard
 audio and consumer-grade equipment from the late '90s.
 --
 
 While I agree that FLAC is the way to go if hdd space is available, I'd be
 careful about claims that mp3 sounds horrible without specifying which codec
 and bitrates were used; mp3 developers have worked hard in recent years to
 improve the mp3 codec substantially.  In fact, recent blind listening tests
 here http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=67529 prove the
 modern mp3 codec(s) is transparent for almost all music at about 128 kbps.
 Using an old codec is where most people experience poor quality on their
 lossy encoders, because older codecs did a noticeably worse job at encoding.
 
My claims are based on using LAME around 3 years ago.  (I don't remeber
what version number).  I used constant bitrate at 192 kbps for all my
music originally.  I later tested it at 224 and found it almost
indiscernable from ogg vorbis (at 224 average bitrate), except in a few
spots.  I later tested flac and found the same thing -- it sounded
better to me in a few spots.

My biggest complaint about mp3 sound quality has to do with high pitch
sounds and some hard-to-describe guitar sounds.  For instance, the
guitar in Bold As Love by Jimi Hendrix, and the cymbals in just about
any song by the Ramones.  Another couple of test songs I've used are
Change by Blind Melon, and Stop Breaking Down by the White Stripes.

 People on audio websites get ripped a new one for making claims something
 sounds better without proving it by ABX tests.
 http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295
 
Thanks for the warning.  I like my old one just fine!

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 10:38:41PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
 Rob Owens put forth on 10/7/2009 8:02 PM:
 
  When streaming music, if you play it on 2 different computers will the
  music be in sync?  I'm thinking of a sort of party mode where I want
  the same thing playing in several rooms of the house.
 
 Depends on your distance to each loudspeaker.  Sound waves travel at
 approximately 1,125 ft/s depending on air temperature and humidity.
 Thus, if you're not standing at an exact same distance from each
 speaker, the sound will arrive at your ears at different times, creating
 an echo effect or a muddying of the material, depending on the time
 delay between arrivals. This doesn't take into account reflections off
 things such as walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture, which all reflect
 sound to a degree, causing additional 'late arrivals'.
 
 In short, if you want decent stereo sound quality, limit the number of
 speakers to two, and sit in one spot equidistant from each.  In a party
 mode, who the f--k cares, you have been and wine and what not, and
 you're playing it loud enough to be annoying anyway.  At that point,
 what does it matter?
 
I'm aware of the distance to the speaker issue.  I was wondering mainly
about network latency.  I ran a test using icecast2 to stream to a
couple of machines, and there was a pretty big time difference (maybe
half a second).  I was using one old laptop, though, so I'm not sure if
the delay was due to network latency or due to slow processor and/or bus
speed of the old laptop.

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Stan Hoeppner]

Rob Owens put forth on 10/8/2009 5:28 PM:
 On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 10:38:41PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
 Rob Owens put forth on 10/7/2009 8:02 PM:

 When streaming music, if you play it on 2 different computers will the
 music be in sync?  I'm thinking of a sort of party mode where I want
 the same thing playing in several rooms of the house.
 Depends on your distance to each loudspeaker.  Sound waves travel at
 approximately 1,125 ft/s depending on air temperature and humidity.
 Thus, if you're not standing at an exact same distance from each
 speaker, the sound will arrive at your ears at different times, creating
 an echo effect or a muddying of the material, depending on the time
 delay between arrivals. This doesn't take into account reflections off
 things such as walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture, which all reflect
 sound to a degree, causing additional 'late arrivals'.

 In short, if you want decent stereo sound quality, limit the number of
 speakers to two, and sit in one spot equidistant from each.  In a party
 mode, who the f--k cares, you have been and wine and what not, and
 you're playing it loud enough to be annoying anyway.  At that point,
 what does it matter?

 I'm aware of the distance to the speaker issue.  I was wondering mainly
 about network latency.  I ran a test using icecast2 to stream to a
 couple of machines, and there was a pretty big time difference (maybe
 half a second).  I was using one old laptop, though, so I'm not sure if
 the delay was due to network latency or due to slow processor and/or bus
 speed of the old laptop.

Put all 3 computers in the same room (same table if you like) connected
to the same hub/switch (if not wireless), and test the actual sound
delay, if any.  You will now know with certainty how much delay is
analog from the speakers to your ears, vs how much is due to the
computers.  Troubleshoot from there.

--
Stan


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems [solved, somewhat]

[Paul E Condon]

Well, I've certainly received many useful comments from first
responders. The situation is, indeed, more complicated than the guy
in the electronics store claimed.

I can't say my problem is 'solved'. I now know that I have a lot of
research and deciding to do. But I now have a solid starting point.

Thanks very much to all.
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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 11:18:10AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 
 Now, it is quite feasible to store my entire CD collection on hard
 disk, even without compression, and all computers have audio
 output. But what is the audio quality of the analog sound signal? I
 went to the local Best Buy store on Saturday to ask questions. The
 clerk, who was quite self assured, told me that it is easy to connect
 one's computer to one's home sound system, and showed me a short cable
 that they have for sale that has a triaxial plug on one end and two
 RCA jacks on the other and assured me that this was what he used at
 home and that this was all that I needed. This is very reassuring, if
 I can believe it, but ... Is it true? 
 
 He was oblivious to my concern that the analog audio signal is
 generated in the computer box and that it is analog audio that travels
 over the special cable, and if *my* computer has an inferior
 sound-card or sound-chip-set, then maybe I would not have as good
 sound as he has. So I ask here - Is the analog audio signal at the
 output socket of *all* consumer-grade computers equally good? If it is
 not, how can I avoid wasting time and money on a computer with
 inferior sound? Are there other technical issues with the quality of
 'ripped' music from CDs? What are they? As I write this, I am
 wondering how the analog music is actually encoded on the CD. Is is
 purely digital, or are there analog timing variations in the optical
 marks?
 
 I don't want to just hook it up and listen, because the cable run from
 where I have computers to where I have my hi-fi is ~100ft and that
 distance precludes listening to different CD copies on HD in quick
 succession. And maybe it really is a good way to go, but my test
 indicates it is bad because I make mistakes in my test setup. ...
 
I do it, and it's great.  I put an old computer or laptop anywhere I
want music and access it over the network.  Put the computer right next
to the stereo and use short audio cables to minimize losses.

Since you care about the sound quality, I'd recommend encoding with
flac.  That's lossless, so there is no sound quality difference between
flac-encoded music and music straight from the CD.  Forget about mp3.
It sounds horrible, in my opinion.  High pitch sounds like cymbals sound
swishy.  Ogg vorbis is a lot better sounding than mp3, but flac is
still the best.  I can here the difference and I'm using my onboard
audio and consumer-grade equipment from the late '90s.

Vorbis and mp3 are lossy, which means that they approximate the sound
on the original recording.  Kinda like zip compression that doesn't
exactly reproduce what you compressed.  Flac is lossless.

Somebody mentioned wav format.  As far as I know, wav doesn't hold meta
tags.  Meta tags are information that gets bundled with the music.
Music players use this to tell the artist, album, track, year, etc.
Flac, vorbis, and mp3 can all contain meta tags.

The only reason I can think of to use mp3 format is because just about
all portable music players will play it.  Many will play ogg vorbis and
flac, but not all.  If you want to experiment with mp3 and ogg vorbis,
start at a bitrate of 192 or 224 kbps.  I wouldn't bother, though.  Just
use flac. 

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 08:06:51PM +0200, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
 
 Certainly not. At best it is equally bad. (On the other hand, apparently
 most people don't mind listening to music at low sound quality).
 YMMV.
 I use *professional* grade sound cards, because I like good sound quality.
 
Can you recommend a professional sound card?

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 02:35:05PM -0700, Mark wrote:
 I have been mulling over the same kinds of problems for some time
 also.  Noone in this thread has yet mentioned the Logitech Slingbox:
 http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,enhttp://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,en
 Has anyone used this, and if so, does it fit the bill for high end
 audio performance, as claimed?  I've no reason to think it doesn't,
 I'd just like to hear from someone who has actually used it.
 
 I have a Squeezebox (Classic) at my house streaming music wirelessly from an
 old HP desktop box running Lenny.  24 bit Burr Brown DAC, can run off of LAN
 or WLAN.  If you have your music encoded using FLAC or Wavepack, among other
 formats, it can play it natively.  Had it for 2+ years, couldn't be
 happier.  There used to be a trick that required you to install the faad
 package in Lenny and change some code to get iTunes formats (.mp4, .m4a,
 .m4p) to play but the latest software update fixed it where those files are
 supported natively now.  The only downside is Logitech bought out
 SlimDevices, so I worry about the the open source nature of the
 firmware/server software's future.  I personally love the Wake On Lan
 capabilities, that boots my Lenny machine from across the house using the
 Squeezebox remote.  I run an Onkyo amp with Klipsch speakers and the sound
 is phenomenal and true to the original recordings.
 
When streaming music, if you play it on 2 different computers will the
music be in sync?  I'm thinking of a sort of party mode where I want
the same thing playing in several rooms of the house.

-Rob


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[H.S.]

Rob Owens wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 08:06:51PM +0200, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
 Certainly not. At best it is equally bad. (On the other hand, apparently
 most people don't mind listening to music at low sound quality).
 YMMV.
 I use *professional* grade sound cards, because I like good sound quality.

 Can you recommend a professional sound card?

Not sure if this is professional grade, but I have used M-audio 2496
(http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496.html). It has
worked like a charm. Used it for live music recording and also for
playback via a mixer. The system is Ubuntu based, but should have no
problem in Debian either.

Good luck.


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[H.S.]

Rob Owens wrote:

 
 Vorbis and mp3 are lossy, which means that they approximate the sound
 on the original recording.  Kinda like zip compression that doesn't
 exactly reproduce what you compressed.  Flac is lossless.
 
 Somebody mentioned wav format.  As far as I know, wav doesn't hold meta

Yes, flac supports meta tags. Plus, it is roughly half the size of wav.
Wonderful lossless format. I usually rip my audio CDs to flac and put
them on my home network to listen from anywhere.




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OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Stan Hoeppner]

Rob Owens put forth on 10/7/2009 8:02 PM:

 When streaming music, if you play it on 2 different computers will the
 music be in sync?  I'm thinking of a sort of party mode where I want
 the same thing playing in several rooms of the house.

Depends on your distance to each loudspeaker.  Sound waves travel at
approximately 1,125 ft/s depending on air temperature and humidity.
Thus, if you're not standing at an exact same distance from each
speaker, the sound will arrive at your ears at different times, creating
an echo effect or a muddying of the material, depending on the time
delay between arrivals. This doesn't take into account reflections off
things such as walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture, which all reflect
sound to a degree, causing additional 'late arrivals'.

In short, if you want decent stereo sound quality, limit the number of
speakers to two, and sit in one spot equidistant from each.  In a party
mode, who the f--k cares, you have been and wine and what not, and
you're playing it loud enough to be annoying anyway.  At that point,
what does it matter?

--
Stan


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Mark]

Rob wrote:
--
Since you care about the sound quality, I'd recommend encoding with
flac.  That's lossless, so there is no sound quality difference between
flac-encoded music and music straight from the CD.Forget about mp3.
It sounds horrible, in my opinion.  High pitch sounds like cymbals sound
swishy.  Ogg vorbis is a lot better sounding than mp3, but flac is
still the best.  I can here the difference and I'm using my onboard
audio and consumer-grade equipment from the late '90s.
--

While I agree that FLAC is the way to go if hdd space is available, I'd be
careful about claims that mp3 sounds horrible without specifying which codec
and bitrates were used; mp3 developers have worked hard in recent years to
improve the mp3 codec substantially.  In fact, recent blind listening tests
here http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=67529 prove the
modern mp3 codec(s) is transparent for almost all music at about 128 kbps.
Using an old codec is where most people experience poor quality on their
lossy encoders, because older codecs did a noticeably worse job at encoding.

People on audio websites get ripped a new one for making claims something
sounds better without proving it by ABX tests.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295

Mark

Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Mark]

Stan wrote:
-
The cheapest solution by far is to use your current PC, and have a
contractor come in and run an in wall digital optical cable from the
room your PC is in to the room your A/V receiver is in.  Plug a Toslink
patch cable from the wall to the PC, and from the wall to the A/V
receiver and you're done.  If you go this route you'll need a PC
hardware solution with a digital audio output (Toslink connection)
-

If you're going to go this route and use a sound card on your PC, here' s a
couple handy links:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t60819.html
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t70734.html

Note that internal sound cards are more prone to noise and distortion than
external cards, in case you weren't already aware.

FWIW, reasons I went with a Squeezebox include (if you haven't considered
these yet):

1) The ability to access/control my music collection remotely, i.e. not
having to go to the physical computer to skip a song, etc.

2) Not being tied to one physical location; if I want to put my Squeezebox
in my bedroom instead of living room for a weekend, I can unplug and move it
in 2 minutes.

3) I considered buying a cheap/used netbook or laptop, along with an
external sound card, to connect directly to my receiver.  Compared to the
price of a Squeezebox (or any wireless music player for that matter), it was
about twice as much.  Plus I'm not a fan of having a computer that close to
so much electronic equipment.

4) Open source software and firmware.  Since Logitech bought out SlimDevices
they have maintained this; hopefully they will continue.

Just thought I'd share my experience in case anyone can benefit from it.

OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Paul E Condon]

Years ago (~35y), I spent a lot of money to get a really good sound
system to play my CDs. It was fully transistorized. The loud speakers
are big, with woofer, mid-range and tweeter, and are driven by a
really heavy power amplifier box. Because of the solid-state
internals, it has worked without interruption or servicing of any
kind. 

It still works entirely to my satisfaction except for one issue: I
have trouble with the physical handling and storage of the CDs. When
several CDs get separated from their jewel-cases, it is tedious to get
them back in the correct case and the case back in the correct place
on the storage shelf.

A decade or more ago, I was toying with the idea of getting a robotic
mechanical CD handler/player, but decided to wait a while for the
price to go down. Instead, they seem to have disappeared from the
market. And the whole napster thing happened. And the iPod with music
delivered via ear-buds...

Now, it is quite feasible to store my entire CD collection on hard
disk, even without compression, and all computers have audio
output. But what is the audio quality of the analog sound signal? I
went to the local Best Buy store on Saturday to ask questions. The
clerk, who was quite self assured, told me that it is easy to connect
one's computer to one's home sound system, and showed me a short cable
that they have for sale that has a triaxial plug on one end and two
RCA jacks on the other and assured me that this was what he used at
home and that this was all that I needed. This is very reassuring, if
I can believe it, but ... Is it true? 

He was oblivious to my concern that the analog audio signal is
generated in the computer box and that it is analog audio that travels
over the special cable, and if *my* computer has an inferior
sound-card or sound-chip-set, then maybe I would not have as good
sound as he has. So I ask here - Is the analog audio signal at the
output socket of *all* consumer-grade computers equally good? If it is
not, how can I avoid wasting time and money on a computer with
inferior sound? Are there other technical issues with the quality of
'ripped' music from CDs? What are they? As I write this, I am
wondering how the analog music is actually encoded on the CD. Is is
purely digital, or are there analog timing variations in the optical
marks?

I don't want to just hook it up and listen, because the cable run from
where I have computers to where I have my hi-fi is ~100ft and that
distance precludes listening to different CD copies on HD in quick
succession. And maybe it really is a good way to go, but my test
indicates it is bad because I make mistakes in my test setup. ...

Please, help with this perplexity.
-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Monday 05 October 2009 12:18:10 Paul E Condon wrote:
 one's computer to one's home sound system, and showed me a short cable
 that they have for sale that has a triaxial plug on one end and two
 RCA jacks on the other and assured me that this was what he used at
 home and that this was all that I needed. This is very reassuring, if
 I can believe it, but ... Is it true?

That will work.  Some audio cards also have support for optical audio jacks 
and/or SPIDF (sp?) cables.  I'm far from an expert in audio cables, but I 
believe you get the best quality out of a cable technology that is both 
grounded and balanced.

 Is the analog audio signal at the
 output socket of *all* consumer-grade computers equally good?

No.  In particular, on-board audio processors in both laptops and desktops are 
generally not (electrically) isolated enough from the rest of the system.  The 
analog output picks up electrical noise either at the DACs or on the way to 
the plug.

You'll want something off-board.  Cable technology *does* matter, so find a 
audio card that has good output ports.  If you do any of your own mastering, 
make sure the audio card supports 24-bit sample sizes.  Don't be afraid to 
consider completely external solutions like USB-audio devices.  They might be 
less portable/manageable but they are often the better system.

 If it is
 not, how can I avoid wasting time and money on a computer with
 inferior sound? 

Read reviews.  Test out systems if possible.  Get advice from early adopters.

 Are there other technical issues with the quality of
 'ripped' music from CDs? What are they? 

If the CD has been damaged, the rip may contain crackles and pops reminiscent 
of vinyl.  That's about it.  CDDA is a open, DRM-free format that virtually 
any device reading that media can understand.  There's no compression or 
encoding so things a relatively simple.

Raw wave files are rather large, but flac can shrink them by 40-60% 
losslessly.  It's rather easy to own 10s of TB of storage space right now, so 
it might not matter at all.  1 TB ~= 2000 audio CDs, uncompressed.

 As I write this, I am
 wondering how the analog music is actually encoded on the CD. Is is
 purely digital, or are there analog timing variations in the optical
 marks?

It is purely digital.  16-bit (not sure if this is floating- or fixed-point), 
stereo, 44.1 kHz samples, IIRC.

Some consumer-level audio cards are capable of handling 32-bit (floating- or 
fixed-point), 8-channel, 96 kHz (or more) audio data in real-time.  So 
producing CD-quality output is trivial for them.
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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul E Condon wrote:
 Now, it is quite feasible to store my entire CD collection on hard
 disk, even without compression, and all computers have audio
 output. But what is the audio quality of the analog sound signal? 

It depends on the quality of the sound card, just as much as on the
quality of the amplifier, speakers or any other component you use for
your music playback.

   I
 went to the local Best Buy store on Saturday to ask questions. The
 clerk, who was quite self assured, told me that it is easy to connect
 one's computer to one's home sound system, and showed me a short cable
 that they have for sale that has a triaxial plug on one end and two
 RCA jacks on the other and assured me that this was what he used at
 home and that this was all that I needed. This is very reassuring, if
 I can believe it, but ... Is it true? 

Yes. You might get better sound quality with a better sound card and/or
better cables, though. The cable, however, is a cheap solution (compared
to buying better equipment), though you might just give it a try and
find out whether it suits your needs.

 He was oblivious to my concern that the analog audio signal is
 generated in the computer box and that it is analog audio that travels
 over the special cable, and if *my* computer has an inferior
 sound-card or sound-chip-set, then maybe I would not have as good
 sound as he has. So I ask here - Is the analog audio signal at the
 output socket of *all* consumer-grade computers equally good? 

Certainly not. At best it is equally bad. (On the other hand, apparently
most people don't mind listening to music at low sound quality).
YMMV.
I use *professional* grade sound cards, because I like good sound quality.

   If it is
 not, how can I avoid wasting time and money on a computer with
 inferior sound? 

Buy a high quality sound card. Since I mostly use laptops for this, I
prefer external usb sound cards. Nowadays some have DA-converters
matching those of the best high end CD players at a fraction of the price.

 Are there other technical issues with the quality of
 'ripped' music from CDs? What are they? 

It depends how you rip them (what format). mp3 has some qualtiy loss,
but at the higher quality settings this won't matter on most hifi
equipment. There's the option to rip it lossless as well, ie. with
exactly the same digital quality as on CD.

 As I write this, I am
 wondering how the analog music is actually encoded on the CD. Is is
 purely digital, or are there analog timing variations in the optical
 marks?

Purely digital at constant timing.

HTH,
cheers,
Johannes

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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 It is purely digital.  16-bit (not sure if this is floating- or fixed-point), 
 stereo, 44.1 kHz samples, IIRC.

What's the difference between 16-bit floating-point and 16-bit
fixed-point? I always thought those are just integers.

Johannes
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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Monday 05 October 2009 13:20:14 Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  It is purely digital.  16-bit (not sure if this is floating- or
  fixed-point), stereo, 44.1 kHz samples, IIRC.

 What's the difference between 16-bit floating-point and 16-bit
 fixed-point? I always thought those are just integers.

Some audio codecs use floating-point, which is like a float or double or 
long double in the C programing language.  Some bits are the exponent 
(usually with a bias) and some bits are the mantissa.  Other audio codecs use 
fixed-point, where the 16-bits simply a signed integer (or possibly an 
unsigned integer modified by a bias).

I think CDs are fixed-point, but I'm not entirely sure on that.  Both fixed- 
and floating-point have advantages, and I know various audio formats and 
programs use both.

8-bit fixed-point unsigned has exact values for [0,1,2,...,255]
8-bit floating point unsigned might have exact values for [0,1,2,...,63], 
[64,65,66,...,127], [128,130,132,...,254], and [256,260,264,...,508].
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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[joe]

Paul E Condon wrote:


I don't want to just hook it up and listen, because the cable run from
where I have computers to where I have my hi-fi is ~100ft and that
distance precludes listening to different CD copies on HD in quick
succession. And maybe it really is a good way to go, but my test
indicates it is bad because I make mistakes in my test setup. ...

Please, help with this perplexity.


You are certainly right to think about this carefully. Don't even think 
about playing straight out of a computer card, and the motherboard sound 
ports are even worse. Signal-to-noise ratio is very poor and it's a 
devil of a job to keep the hum down to manageable levels. My best 
results so far are from a USB 'card' with extra earthing and short audio 
cables. Oddly enough, I can't tell the difference between a Creative 
Live box and a very cheap VOIP USB handset with line in and out, apart 
from the fact that the cheap one causes occasional USB problems on 
Debian (both Etch and Lenny) which the Creative one manages to avoid. 
Even the Creative one has poor PCB layout and, of course, unbalanced 
inputs and outputs.


It's OK for background listening to MP3s. Being married, I'm not too 
concerned about dynamic range, but it's certainly not good enough for 
'real' listening. I still buy CDs, and I keep the computers off if I'm 
listening 'properly'. But I listen mostly while I'm working, usually a 
few feet from a couple of fans, and the computer system is good enough 
for that.


And as to recording... again, the USB card has produced the best 
signal-to-noise ratio I've managed so far, about 45dB, which is just 
about acceptable for background listening, but a long, long way short of 
the theoretical 96dB dynamic range that 16 bits should deliver.


I would assume there are professional sound cards or boxes which offer 
decent quality, but I have no expectation of finding out about them. 
Like you, I spent some money in the 1970s and 80s, but can't afford to 
do so now. Probably a music shop would be a better place to ask than a 
computer store.


But ah, the convenience... I've learned what most people probably learn, 
which is that assembling my favourite tracks, even a couple of hundred, 
leads to repetition and boredom, especially if I'm not paying full 
attention to it.


I now generally play random selections of music by genre, varying as far 
as some I don't like much at all. It makes the good ones sound better 
still, and avoids the anticipation of the next track. I know it sounds 
decadent, but if I'm busy I don't like to have to stop to think about 
what particular music I want next, or to pick a CD off the shelf. It's 
like good radio without the boring people in between...

--
Joe


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[David Christensen]

Paul E Condon wrote:

good sound system to play my CDs.
store my entire CD collection on hard disk, even without compression,

 and all computers have audio output.

the cable run from where I have computers to where I have my hi-fi is ~100ft


Have you considered building a media center/ home theater PC, deploying 
it next to your hi-fi, and connecting it to your LAN (wired or 
wireless)?  Search the fine web (STFW) for articles and sites using 
keywords like Linux, home theater PC, media center PC, small form 
factor, etc..



 Is the analog audio signal at the output socket of *all*
 consumer-grade computers equally good?

As others have stated, of course not.  The key is to get a motherboard, 
sound card, and/or USB audio codec with good enough audio 
specifications and for which there is device driver and operating system 
sound architecture support.



If you're into books -- The Book of Linux Music and Sound by Dave 
Phillips was a good read.  But, Linux multimedia technology has advanced 
since 2000:


http://nostarch.com/frameset.php?startat=lms


HTH,

David


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Martin J. Hillyer]

On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 11:18:10AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 Years ago (~35y), I spent a lot of money to get a really good sound
 system to play my CDs. It was fully transistorized. The loud speakers
 are big, with woofer, mid-range and tweeter, and are driven by a
 really heavy power amplifier box. Because of the solid-state
 internals, it has worked without interruption or servicing of any
 kind. 


[snip]
 
 Please, help with this perplexity.
 -- 
 Paul E Condon   
 pecon...@mesanetworks.net

I have been mulling over the same kinds of problems for some time
also.  Noone in this thread has yet mentioned the Logitech Slingbox:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,en

Has anyone used this, and if so, does it fit the bill for high end
audio performance, as claimed?  I've no reason to think it doesn't,
I'd just like to hear from someone who has actually used it.

P.S.  My apologies to Mr Condon for sending this to his return address; 
I stupidly hit reply instead of group-reply.

-- 
Martin Hillyer


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Mark]

I have been mulling over the same kinds of problems for some time
also.  Noone in this thread has yet mentioned the Logitech Slingbox:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,enhttp://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,en
Has anyone used this, and if so, does it fit the bill for high end
audio performance, as claimed?  I've no reason to think it doesn't,
I'd just like to hear from someone who has actually used it.

I have a Squeezebox (Classic) at my house streaming music wirelessly from an
old HP desktop box running Lenny.  24 bit Burr Brown DAC, can run off of LAN
or WLAN.  If you have your music encoded using FLAC or Wavepack, among other
formats, it can play it natively.  Had it for 2+ years, couldn't be
happier.  There used to be a trick that required you to install the faad
package in Lenny and change some code to get iTunes formats (.mp4, .m4a,
.m4p) to play but the latest software update fixed it where those files are
supported natively now.  The only downside is Logitech bought out
SlimDevices, so I worry about the the open source nature of the
firmware/server software's future.  I personally love the Wake On Lan
capabilities, that boots my Lenny machine from across the house using the
Squeezebox remote.  I run an Onkyo amp with Klipsch speakers and the sound
is phenomenal and true to the original recordings.

The only limitation using my setup comes from music files using compressed
formats, but virtually all of my songs hover around the 160-192 kbps range
so they are transparent when comparing to the originals.  You can actually
get away with lower bitrates using the most modern mp3 LAME codec, but my
songs were encoded several years ago.  :)

Mark

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Martin J. Hillyer mlhill...@comcast.netwrote:

 On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 11:18:10AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
  Years ago (~35y), I spent a lot of money to get a really good sound
  system to play my CDs. It was fully transistorized. The loud speakers
  are big, with woofer, mid-range and tweeter, and are driven by a
  really heavy power amplifier box. Because of the solid-state
  internals, it has worked without interruption or servicing of any
  kind.
 

 [snip]

  Please, help with this perplexity.
  --
  Paul E Condon
  pecon...@mesanetworks.net

 I have been mulling over the same kinds of problems for some time
 also.  Noone in this thread has yet mentioned the Logitech Slingbox:

 http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/cl=us,en

 Has anyone used this, and if so, does it fit the bill for high end
 audio performance, as claimed?  I've no reason to think it doesn't,
 I'd just like to hear from someone who has actually used it.

 P.S.  My apologies to Mr Condon for sending this to his return address;
 I stupidly hit reply instead of group-reply.

 --
 Martin Hillyer


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Re: OT question about sound cards/chip-sets and high-end music systems

[Stan Hoeppner]

Paul E Condon put forth on 10/5/2009 12:18 PM:
 Years ago (~35y), I spent a lot of money to get a really good sound
 system to play my CDs. It was fully transistorized. The loud speakers
 are big, with woofer, mid-range and tweeter, and are driven by a
 really heavy power amplifier box. Because of the solid-state
 internals, it has worked without interruption or servicing of any
 kind. 

[snip]

Sounds like it's time for you to build a media center PC

http://www.linuxis.us/linux/media/howto/linux-htpc/

or (possibly better) buy one pre-built:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=438sec=1

DISCLAIMER:  I am not promoting this D-Link product.  I have no first
hand experience with it.  I mention it strictly as an example of a class
of products that would fulfill your needs.

It has wireless ethernet so you don't have to call a contractor to run
CAT5 through your house.  It has both optical digital and coaxial
digital audio outputs for connecting directly to your modern A/V
receiver's digital audio inputs.  This will eliminate any sound quality
issues related to cheap PC sound card problems.

This D-Link requires a host PC on the network running Vista or XP SP2.
I assume they have a software package one installs on the PC to control
the D-Link and setup shares for the media file directories, etc.

If you search around, you can probably find a similar product that would
allow you to use Linux instead of Windows (i.e. one with a web based
management interface with no software requirement on the PC).  I'm
guessing all you will find is products offering support for total media
entertainment, not just CD/MP3/audio.  You're a smart guy.  You'll
figure out what product/solution is best for your needs.

The cheapest solution by far is to use your current PC, and have a
contractor come in and run an in wall digital optical cable from the
room your PC is in to the room your A/V receiver is in.  Plug a Toslink
patch cable from the wall to the PC, and from the wall to the A/V
receiver and you're done.  If you go this route you'll need a PC
hardware solution with a digital audio output (Toslink connection).

Good luck.

Regards.

--
Stan


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Re: USB Sound Cards on Etch: Can't Get One To Work

[Hal Vaughan]

The first post showed up about 8 hours or more after I tried to send it, 
sorry for the duplication of subjects.  Feel free to ignore this post 
and just reply to the other one with the same topic.

Hal

On Sunday 07 December 2008, Hal Vaughan wrote:
 I'm currently using an iMic USB sound card on a Soekris net5501
 system that can handle USB 2.0, even if it is a slower CPU in
 comparison. (Unit specs here: http://soekris.com/net5501.htm)

 Before I was using this (the iMic), I was using a Startech USB sound
 card (here on Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/5v4n4k).  I had errors with
 that card which led me to the iMic.

 This computer is a general file/printer/nfs/nis/dns server but
 nothing that's heavy duty except possibly the printer stuff, but I
 haven't been printing while I've been testing.  I have a HD radio
 hooked up to one USB port and I can control it with an app I wrote
 for tuning, volume, and other settings.  It has analog stereo output
 that, on an older and bigger system, I ran into the sound card
 through the Line In jack and used a regular output jack to go to my
 speakers.  (I prefer to do this instead of splitting and weakening
 the analog audio from the radio output.)  I also take the input
 stream and use it with Icecast2 to make it available on my home audio
 system.  This always worked just fine with a Soundblaster in a PCI
 slot.

 With the Startech USB sound card the sound from the Line In went to
 the speakers with no problem, but whenever I tried to read that sound
 stream with darkice or anything else, I kept getting errors that I
 tracked down to an indication there wasn't enough bandwidth to send
 the audio signal through from the card to the USB port.  (I used
 arecord and finally got error messages that helped me to track this
 down.)

 Since I could find nothing to show me that I could work around this
 in any way, I finally started searching for other USB sound cards and
 found a few references to people using an iMic with Debian Etch.  It
 seemed like they just plugged it in and it worked.  No such luck.

 Yet I dont' have access to the card.   Before running alsaconf, when
 the card was hooked up and I wasn't getting error messages from
 amixer or alsamixer, here's the stuff from /proc:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/cards
  0 [system ]: USB-Audio - iMic USB audio system
   Griffin Technology, Inc iMic USB audio system
 at usb-:00:15.1-1.7, full spe
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/devices
   0: [ 0]   : control
   1:: sequencer
  16: [ 0- 0]: digital audio playback
  24: [ 0- 0]: digital audio capture
  33:: timer

 It looked like alsaconf just matched it with the first driver it
 could, a Yamaha one, but when I deselected that as a choice and ran
 alsaconf again, when it was done, there was no card.  Here's output
 from the first time I ran alsaconf:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ alsaconf
 Unloading ALSA sound driver modules: snd-cs4236 snd-seq-dummy
 snd-seq- oss snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq snd-pcm-oss
 snd-mixer-oss snd-cs4236-lib snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4231-lib
 snd-opl3-lib snd-hwdep snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd-rawmidi
 snd-seq-device snd-timer (failed: modules still loaded: snd-opl3-lib
 snd-hwdep snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4236- lib snd-seq-dummy snd-seq-oss
 snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq snd-rawmidi snd-seq-device
 snd-cs4231-lib snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd- timer).
 Building card database...
 Probing legacy cards..   This may take a few minutes..
 Probing: opl3sa2grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such
 file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory

  : FOUND!!

 Running update-modules...
 Loading driver...
 FATAL: Error inserting snd_opl3sa2
 (/lib/modules/2.6.18-6-486/kernel/sound/isa/snd-opl3sa2.ko): No such
 device
 FATAL: Error running install command for snd_opl3sa2
 Setting default volumes...
 amixer: Mixer attach default error: No such file or directory


 =
==

  Now ALSA is ready to use.
  For adjustment of volumes, use your favorite mixer.

  Have a lot of fun!


 -

 After it runs, there's no sound cards in /proc/asound/cards so

USB Sound Cards on Etch: Can't Get One To Work

[Hal Vaughan]

I'm currently using an iMic USB sound card on a Soekris net5501 system 
that can handle USB 2.0, even if it is a slower CPU in comparison.  
(Unit specs here: http://soekris.com/net5501.htm)

Before I was using this (the iMic), I was using a Startech USB sound 
card (here on Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/5v4n4k).  I had errors with 
that card which led me to the iMic.

This computer is a general file/printer/nfs/nis/dns server but nothing 
that's heavy duty except possibly the printer stuff, but I haven't been 
printing while I've been testing.  I have a HD radio hooked up to one 
USB port and I can control it with an app I wrote for tuning, volume, 
and other settings.  It has analog stereo output that, on an older and 
bigger system, I ran into the sound card through the Line In jack and 
used a regular output jack to go to my speakers.  (I prefer to do this 
instead of splitting and weakening the analog audio from the radio 
output.)  I also take the input stream and use it with Icecast2 to make 
it available on my home audio system.  This always worked just fine with 
a Soundblaster in a PCI slot.

With the Startech USB sound card the sound from the Line In went to the 
speakers with no problem, but whenever I tried to read that sound stream 
with darkice or anything else, I kept getting errors that I tracked down 
to an indication there wasn't enough bandwidth to send the audio signal 
through from the card to the USB port.  (I used arecord and finally got 
error messages that helped me to track this down.)

Since I could find nothing to show me that I could work around this in 
any way, I finally started searching for other USB sound cards and found 
a few references to people using an iMic with Debian Etch.  It seemed 
like they just plugged it in and it worked.  No such luck.

Yet I dont' have access to the card.   Before running alsaconf, when the 
card was hooked up and I wasn't getting error messages from amixer or 
alsamixer, here's the stuff from /proc:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/cards
  
 0 [system ]: USB-Audio - iMic USB audio system 
   
  Griffin Technology, Inc iMic USB audio system at 
usb-:00:15.1-1.7, full spe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/devices 
  0: [ 0]   : control   
  1:: sequencer 
 16: [ 0- 0]: digital audio playback
 24: [ 0- 0]: digital audio capture 
 33:: timer  

It looked like alsaconf just matched it with the first driver it could, 
a Yamaha one, but when I deselected that as a choice and ran alsaconf 
again, when it was done, there was no card.  Here's output from the 
first time I ran alsaconf:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ alsaconf
Unloading ALSA sound driver modules: snd-cs4236 snd-seq-dummy snd-seq-
oss snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq snd-pcm-oss snd-mixer-oss 
snd-cs4236-lib snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4231-lib snd-opl3-lib snd-hwdep 
snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd-rawmidi snd-seq-device snd-timer (failed: 
modules still loaded: snd-opl3-lib snd-hwdep snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4236-
lib snd-seq-dummy snd-seq-oss snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq 
snd-rawmidi snd-seq-device snd-cs4231-lib snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd-
timer).
Building card database...
Probing legacy cards..   This may take a few minutes..
Probing: opl3sa2grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file 
or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 : FOUND!!


Running update-modules...
Loading driver...
FATAL: Error inserting snd_opl3sa2 
(/lib/modules/2.6.18-6-486/kernel/sound/isa/snd-opl3sa2.ko): No such 
device
FATAL: Error running install command for snd_opl3sa2
Setting default volumes...
amixer: Mixer attach default error: No such file or directory


===

 Now ALSA is ready to use.
 For adjustment of volumes, use your favorite mixer.

 Have a lot of fun!


-

After it runs, there's no sound cards in /proc/asound/cards so alsamixer 
or anything else won't run.  Since it looked like it was just grabbing 
the first driver to use, I eliminated the Yamaha drivers (Kept

USB Sound Cards on Etch: Can't Get One To Work

[Hal Vaughan]

I'm currently using an iMic USB sound card on a Soekris net5501 system 
that can handle USB 2.0, even if it is a slower CPU in comparison.  
(Unit specs here: http://soekris.com/net5501.htm)

Before I was using this (the iMic), I was using a Startech USB sound 
card (here on Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/5v4n4k).  I had errors with 
that card which led me to the iMic.

This computer is a general file/printer/nfs/nis/dns server but nothing 
that's heavy duty except possibly the printer stuff, but I haven't been 
printing while I've been testing.  I have a HD radio hooked up to one 
USB port and I can control it with an app I wrote for tuning, volume, 
and other settings.  It has analog stereo output that, on an older and 
bigger system, I ran into the sound card through the Line In jack and 
used a regular output jack to go to my speakers.  (I prefer to do this 
instead of splitting and weakening the analog audio from the radio 
output.)  I also take the input stream and use it with Icecast2 to make 
it available on my home audio system.  This always worked just fine with 
a Soundblaster in a PCI slot.

With the Startech USB sound card the sound from the Line In went to the 
speakers with no problem, but whenever I tried to read that sound stream 
with darkice or anything else, I kept getting errors that I tracked down 
to an indication there wasn't enough bandwidth to send the audio signal 
through from the card to the USB port.  (I used arecord and finally got 
error messages that helped me to track this down.)

Since I could find nothing to show me that I could work around this in 
any way, I finally started searching for other USB sound cards and found 
a few references to people using an iMic with Debian Etch.  It seemed 
like they just plugged it in and it worked.  No such luck.

Yet I dont' have access to the card.   Before running alsaconf, when the 
card was hooked up and I wasn't getting error messages from amixer or 
alsamixer, here's the stuff from /proc:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/cards
  
 0 [system ]: USB-Audio - iMic USB audio system 
   
  Griffin Technology, Inc iMic USB audio system at 
usb-:00:15.1-1.7, full spe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ cat /proc/asound/devices 
  0: [ 0]   : control   
  1:: sequencer 
 16: [ 0- 0]: digital audio playback
 24: [ 0- 0]: digital audio capture 
 33:: timer  

It looked like alsaconf just matched it with the first driver it could, 
a Yamaha one, but when I deselected that as a choice and ran alsaconf 
again, when it was done, there was no card.  Here's output from the 
first time I ran alsaconf:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ alsaconf
Unloading ALSA sound driver modules: snd-cs4236 snd-seq-dummy snd-seq-
oss snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq snd-pcm-oss snd-mixer-oss 
snd-cs4236-lib snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4231-lib snd-opl3-lib snd-hwdep 
snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd-rawmidi snd-seq-device snd-timer (failed: 
modules still loaded: snd-opl3-lib snd-hwdep snd-mpu401-uart snd-cs4236-
lib snd-seq-dummy snd-seq-oss snd-seq-midi snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq 
snd-rawmidi snd-seq-device snd-cs4231-lib snd-pcm snd-page-alloc snd-
timer).
Building card database...
Probing legacy cards..   This may take a few minutes..
Probing: opl3sa2grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file 
or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
grep: /sys/bus/pnp/devices/??:*/resources: No such file or directory
 : FOUND!!


Running update-modules...
Loading driver...
FATAL: Error inserting snd_opl3sa2 
(/lib/modules/2.6.18-6-486/kernel/sound/isa/snd-opl3sa2.ko): No such 
device
FATAL: Error running install command for snd_opl3sa2
Setting default volumes...
amixer: Mixer attach default error: No such file or directory


===

 Now ALSA is ready to use.
 For adjustment of volumes, use your favorite mixer.

 Have a lot of fun!


-

After it runs, there's no sound cards in /proc/asound/cards so alsamixer 
or anything else won't run.  Since it looked like it was just grabbing 
the first driver to use, I eliminated the Yamaha drivers (Kept

Re: sound cards, real time kernels and 64studio.......

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jun 08, 2007 at 05:45:06PM +, Michael Fothergill wrote:
 Dear Debianists,
 
 I have been nosing into the world of recording music on a PC i.e turning it 
 into an 8 track tape recorder with its own on board synthesiser, drum 
 machine and other goodies...
 
 Apparently there is a Debian based distribution called 64studio that runs 
 on 64 bit machines (I am using an AMD 3200 64 bit PC running AMD 64 Debian 
 Etch) that contains a suite of software for doing sound recordings.

A good source of information is the linux-audio-user mailing list.

-- 
Chris.
==


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Re: sound cards, real time kernels and 64studio.......

[David Baron]

Place the following in /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/deb/ ./

They have images, sources, headers, various modules for current Kernels with 
Ingo Molnar's realtime preemption patches. I would use the 2.6.21-rt1 version 
for now (avoid the rt4, the rt7 works fine but with some scarey oops-like 
debugging messages which you may or may not get).

They also post recent sources for Ardour and Rosegarden and others.


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sound cards, real time kernels and 64studio.......

[Michael Fothergill]

Dear Debianists,

I have been nosing into the world of recording music on a PC i.e turning it 
into an 8 track tape recorder with its own on board synthesiser, drum 
machine and other goodies...


Apparently there is a Debian based distribution called 64studio that runs on 
64 bit machines (I am using an AMD 3200 64 bit PC running AMD 64 Debian 
Etch) that contains a suite of software for doing sound recordings.


Apparently the kernel in this distribution has been modified with some 
patches that make it able to run in what is termed hard real-time 
priority


There also some commands that you can issue at the terminal that can 
optimise this real time feature when you are running the OS.


Apparently they started with the 2.6.12 kernel and added patches to it made 
by a Red Hat programmer by the name of Ingo Molnar.


Apparently these patches were very successful and an updated 2.6.13 kernel 
was produced with these patches and some other code not found in standard 
Debian kernels


I guess this is what is at the heart of the 64studio distro..

As far as I am aware I am using the 2.6.17 kernel in the AMD64 Etch distro I 
am using.


I noticed that most of the software featured in the 64studio distro is 
present in the standard Etch 4.0 r0 release...  e.g. Rosegarden, Ardour, 
Jamin, Audacity, Hydrogen etc...


I thought at first I might as well just install them in Etch and try doing 
sound recording with it instead of 64studio


BUt now I am wondering that the kernel I am using Etch will not work 
properly because it is either not real time or cannot be easily modified to 
be as cleanly real time as the 64studio kernel...


Is this true or is the 2.6.17 kernel in Etch OK for sound recording?

You also need to optimise the hard disk to keep up with real time audio 
streams.  You need to use hdparm to do this.


If you want to recording eight channels of audio simultaneously a SATA drive 
is probably a good idea apparently



I have a guitar synthesiser and I thought it would be useful to lay down a 
bass track with it on top of a drum track made using e.g. hydrogen.



I would need to add a midi interface to do this if I wanted to drive a 
software synthesiser on the computer and not just mic up the guitar 
synthesiser audio output


Apparently you need a special sound card to handle multi channel recording.

There is a device made by some people called m-audio that can handle the 
midi interfacing and also 8 recording channels


I think it is a Delta 1010.

There are some open source drivers for it apparently.

I would appreciate any comments on the practicalities of recording sounds on 
computers and also kernel optimisation concerns


Regards

Michael Fothergill

_
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk/


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Re: sound cards, real time kernels and 64studio.......

[Andrew J. Barr]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michael Fothergill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Is this true or is the 2.6.17 kernel in Etch OK for sound recording?
 

If you are going to be modifying your distribution anyway, you might
consider rolling a vanilla kernel from kernel.org + your realtime
patches (not sure specifically what you are referring to but I am
vaguely aware of the realtime Linux patches from Red Hat). There is
nothing that really ties Etch to the kernel that it ships with, other
than module packages, which you can easily build for your custom
kernel using the respective *-source packages and module-assistant.

- -- 
Andrew J. Barr
X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.1 (GTK+ 2.10.12; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)

Ronald Reagan: America's answer to Inspector Clouseau
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