Re: Switching to 64 bit
I enjoyed very much to read your previous post, but here I'll have to disagree. Debian aims to be a universal operating system, but this is to some point contradictory with the pace of computer architecture innovation, which is not at all controlled by free software community, but self imposed as a natural pace of technological development disregarding all social issues in this run to faster and the constant cycle of trashing good piece of hardware. Debian is great because it strives and grows despite these difficulties and brings us somewhat outdated software that behaves great and respects us. Not because it is the most bleeding edge of technological enhancement. I'm not saying we shouldn't move. But as I see, the question to move is basically different to different kinds of computer use and developers shouldn't blame people for not rushing to upgrades. Said developers should question why their push wasn't seen as primary issue as they first thought it was. -- Luther Blisset GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80 I challenge you to play the game in which there is no loser but everything is fun and worthwhile! ---BeginMessage--- On 6/29/2013 6:00 PM, Doug wrote: So why have we been bamboozled into running 64 bits if there is no advantage? There are many reasons. One is priming the pump. At some point in the future applications are predicted to become so content rich (bloated) that individual application processes will require more than 2GB of address space. Moving to 64 bit now gets everyone ready. Another is the desire of developers to eventually dump the 32 bit x86 instruction set altogether. Those who write the memory management code disdain the segmented addressing scheme of x86. x86-64 provides a much flatter memory model which is easier to program. Those who maintain complete distros, such as Debian, would surely appreciate building ~30,000 binary packages instead of ~60,000, and tracking/fixing bugs in only one of these instead of both, etc. To name a few. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cf87c9.9020...@hardwarefreak.com ---End Message--- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 7/1/2013 11:07 AM, André Nunes Batista wrote: I enjoyed very much to read your previous post, but here I'll have to disagree. Debian aims to be a universal operating system, but this is to some point contradictory with the pace of computer architecture innovation, which is not at all controlled by free software community, but self imposed as a natural pace of technological development disregarding all social issues in this run to faster and the constant cycle of trashing good piece of hardware. Support for HP-PA and Alpha were dropped some time after HP EOL'd these architectures, even though there were still good machines in use. It appears the installed base was simply to small to justify ongoing Debian support of these platforms. The only reason i386 is still supported by Debian, and Linux upstream, is the fact that VIA (maybe others) still produces 32 bit only CPUs, and that there is still a large installed base of older Intel/AMD 32 bit only PCs in the world. AFAIK, AMD/Intel haven't produced 32 bit only x86 CPUs for a few years now. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d20c1c.8090...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: For now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Your 32 bit PAE Sid kernel can address 64GB. Since your new machine will have less than 64GB RAM you're wasting no opportunity. Your only limitation is 2GB per process. How many of your apps consume more than 2GB of RAM? Can't speak for him of course, but my SeaMonkey is currently using 4.2 GB RES and 5.3 GB VIRT (probably north of 200 tabs) Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAFoWM=_ekugdoudpp6b9onec7ror-mjbydherwhp-o__qjc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
200 browser tabs /and/ a gmail account. That figures ... On 06/30/2013 04:22 PM, Kelly Clowers wrote: Can't speak for him of course, but my SeaMonkey is currently using 4.2 GB RES and 5.3 GB VIRT (probably north of 200 tabs)
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: For now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Your 32 bit PAE Sid kernel can address 64GB. Since your new machine will have less than 64GB RAM you're wasting no opportunity. Your only limitation is 2GB per process. How many of your apps consume more than 2GB of RAM? Note that if you have an 8GB machine you can run 4 apps each consuming 2GB RAM. Something I forgot to mention previously is that a PAE kernel can use all the memory from 4GB-64GB for buffer cache. WRT speed, the vast majority of 32 bit integer programs will execute slightly faster than their 64 bit counterparts due to more efficient cache use--32 bit instructions consume less memory space than 64 bit instructions, thus more instructions fit in L1/2/3 caches. This, combined with plenty of rename registers, offsets the advantage of the extra 8 architectural registers available in long mode. 64 bit floating point Linux desktop applications likely won't be any faster because most developers aren't yet coding for SSE3/4 or AVX, but for SSE2. And SSE2 is what is used in 32 bit apps. If you do have an app that uses SSE3/4 or AVX it may be significantly faster than its 32 bit counterpart. And now the kicker. None of the above means squat if you bought a modern fast CPU with plenty of cache. There will be no perceptible difference between 32/64 bit OS platforms running the standard fare of desktop applications. To make the 64 bit platform strut its stuff you must aggressively walk very large tables that consume much more than 4GB of RAM. Things of this nature would include using 3D modeling software and doing real time 3 dimensional walk-thrus of very complex models with millions of complex parts, such as DNA chains or fighter jets. Another example would be real time pattern recognition. This is where you'll see the address translation mechanisms, both kernel code and hardware, of PAE start to fall over. You won't see it with typical desktop apps. Again, I'm not advocating that a 32 bit software platform is better than, or preferable to, a 64 bit platform. I'm simply presenting you the the facts about the differences. I agree with many others who have stated it doesn't make sense to do a fresh build today using 32 bit software. But you're not doing a fresh build. You're in the transitional phase and were looking for the easiest immediate path forward. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ce7910.8000...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 06/29/2013 02:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: For now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Your 32 bit PAE Sid kernel can address 64GB. Since your new machine will have less than 64GB RAM you're wasting no opportunity. Your only limitation is 2GB per process. How many of your apps consume more than 2GB of RAM? None that I am aware of WRT speed, the vast majority of 32 bit integer programs will execute slightly faster than their 64 bit counterparts due to more efficient cache use--32 bit instructions consume less memory space than 64 bit instructions, thus more instructions fit in L1/2/3 caches. This, combined with plenty of rename registers, offsets the advantage of the extra 8 architectural registers available in long mode. More good news for me for now anyway. And now the kicker. None of the above means squat if you bought a modern fast CPU with plenty of cache. There will be no perceptible difference between 32/64 bit OS platforms running the standard fare of desktop applications. Can't ask for more. But undoubtedly I will eventually go to a full 64-bit installation. Thanks Stan, a clear and easily understood explanation of the differences. -- Cheers Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cf61fb.6040...@videotron.ca
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 06/29/2013 06:38 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: On 06/29/2013 02:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: For now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Your 32 bit PAE Sid kernel can address 64GB. Since your new machine will have less than 64GB RAM you're wasting no opportunity. Your only limitation is 2GB per process. How many of your apps consume more than 2GB of RAM? None that I am aware of WRT speed, the vast majority of 32 bit integer programs will execute slightly faster than their 64 bit counterparts due to more efficient cache use--32 bit instructions consume less memory space than 64 bit instructions, thus more instructions fit in L1/2/3 caches. This, combined with plenty of rename registers, offsets the advantage of the extra 8 architectural registers available in long mode. More good news for me for now anyway. And now the kicker. None of the above means squat if you bought a modern fast CPU with plenty of cache. There will be no perceptible difference between 32/64 bit OS platforms running the standard fare of desktop applications. Can't ask for more. But undoubtedly I will eventually go to a full 64-bit installation. Thanks Stan, a clear and easily understood explanation of the differences. Just about all the distros now have 64-bit versions. Is this all hype? I have installed 64-bit Linux on two machines, and have 32-bit on this one, and I confess that I don't see any performance difference. The only thing I see is that some standard programs are not available for 64-bit systems--I'm thinking Adobe Reader and Light-Scribe. So why have we been bamboozled into running 64 bits if there is no advantage? --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cf671e.9050...@optonline.net
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 6/29/2013 6:00 PM, Doug wrote: So why have we been bamboozled into running 64 bits if there is no advantage? There are many reasons. One is priming the pump. At some point in the future applications are predicted to become so content rich (bloated) that individual application processes will require more than 2GB of address space. Moving to 64 bit now gets everyone ready. Another is the desire of developers to eventually dump the 32 bit x86 instruction set altogether. Those who write the memory management code disdain the segmented addressing scheme of x86. x86-64 provides a much flatter memory model which is easier to program. Those who maintain complete distros, such as Debian, would surely appreciate building ~30,000 binary packages instead of ~60,000, and tracking/fixing bugs in only one of these instead of both, etc. To name a few. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cf87c9.9020...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 29/06/13 07:00 PM, Doug wrote: On 06/29/2013 06:38 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: On 06/29/2013 02:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: For now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Your 32 bit PAE Sid kernel can address 64GB. Since your new machine will have less than 64GB RAM you're wasting no opportunity. Your only limitation is 2GB per process. How many of your apps consume more than 2GB of RAM? None that I am aware of WRT speed, the vast majority of 32 bit integer programs will execute slightly faster than their 64 bit counterparts due to more efficient cache use--32 bit instructions consume less memory space than 64 bit instructions, thus more instructions fit in L1/2/3 caches. This, combined with plenty of rename registers, offsets the advantage of the extra 8 architectural registers available in long mode. More good news for me for now anyway. And now the kicker. None of the above means squat if you bought a modern fast CPU with plenty of cache. There will be no perceptible difference between 32/64 bit OS platforms running the standard fare of desktop applications. Can't ask for more. But undoubtedly I will eventually go to a full 64-bit installation. Thanks Stan, a clear and easily understood explanation of the differences. Just about all the distros now have 64-bit versions. Is this all hype? I have installed 64-bit Linux on two machines, and have 32-bit on this one, and I confess that I don't see any performance difference. The only thing I see is that some standard programs are not available for 64-bit systems--I'm thinking Adobe Reader and Light-Scribe. So why have we been bamboozled into running 64 bits if there is no advantage? --doug There are definite advantages that aren't always obvious. Just like the switch from 8 to 16 and then 32 bits, 64 bit computing allows for bigger and better. 64 bit registers allow larger numbers to be crunched, including 64 bit integers, in single operations. This comes in very handy for encryption, video and image processing, even sound applications. You're not going to notice much difference in simple spreadsheets or word processing applications, or even in disk I/O, but there are areas where the difference is significant. To put it simply, 64 bit applications will always be at least comparable in speed to 32 bit ones but there are times when 64 bit runs circles around 32 bit. Debian's multiarch system allows you to run 32 bit when that's all that is available so you don't give up anything by running 64 bit. However, there will be applications that are only available in 64 bit so you might as well be ready for them. After all, installing 32 bit takes just as long as installing 64 bit. Why cripple your system? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cf9e35.6050...@rogers.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
Am 28.06.2013 um 06:15 schrieb Stan Hoeppner: On 6/27/2013 10:12 PM, Gary Dale wrote: 32bit systems have memory limitations that you don't encounter with 64bit. There are two such limitations when using a PAE kernel and 32bit user space on x86-64, which are the same limitations on P6 class CPUs: 1. 64GB maximum physical memory 2. 2GB per process address space ~99.% of desktop Linux users will never exceed either of these. The same number of users have less than 64GB physical memory. For those who have trouble with percentages, this is 1 in a million users. *Maybe* you are right. *Maybe* in this case means that I don't want to risk 10 minutes for clarifying problems with non-plain 32-bit or 64- bit configurations. Thus my configurations are all plain (out of the box) 32 bit, if the hardware is limited, and plain 64 bit in all other cases. Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5004b2cc-87ca-429a-a371-e6f8dfeeb...@fixpunkt.de
Re: Switching to 64 bit
Friends, shall we do peace? I'm under the same 32/64 bit confusion right now. What I understand is 64 bit gives you doble word blocks and thus process a much higher degree of precision calculus at once, but then it needs just as much physical memory to keep its results and so when I ran amd64 I observed this unnusual high memory consumption with just few services running. The thing is I don't completly thrust Linusies, they are too prone to .com. And seeing you flamefiring didn't help much. What am I missing? -- Luther Blisset GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80 I challenge you to play the game in which there is no loser but everything is fun and worthwhile! ---BeginMessage--- On 6/27/2013 10:12 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 27/06/13 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Not really. Yes, really. This is fact. Don't disagree with facts Gary, especially when I am the one stating them. And don't do it with a flexible spine. If you're going to disagree with me, take a firm stance. 32bit systems have memory limitations that you don't encounter with 64bit. There are two such limitations when using a PAE kernel and 32bit user space on x86-64, which are the same limitations on P6 class CPUs: 1. 64GB maximum physical memory 2. 2GB per process address space ~99.% of desktop Linux users will never exceed either of these. The same number of users have less than 64GB physical memory. For those who have trouble with percentages, this is 1 in a million users. Given your propensity for disagreeing with facts, I'll assume that you are also the type of person who infers intentions, or a position, that do not in fact exist. So I'll spell it out clearly: I am not *advocating* that people in masse run a 32bit software platform on x86-64 hardware. What I've done is state a valid option that may be preferable to the OP who posed the question. Instead of disagreeing with me, with the facts I presented, you should have simply stated your case for a full 64bit platform, in a standalone manner directly replying to the OP's post instead of my factual reply. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cd0dd3.1060...@hardwarefreak.com ---End Message--- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 28/06/13 01:30 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Thu, 27 Jun 2013, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. Thanks for any advice. Don't switch anything over. Do a clean 64-bit install on the new machine. Your life will be so much easier. Once you're set up and configured, copy over the contents of your 32-bit home directory to the 64-bit one. Done. As far as Flash, I use the Chrome browser which comes with its own version, 32-bit for 32-bit systems or 64-bit for 64-bit ones. It's much better than Adobe's. One thing though: if you have both Adobe Flash and Chrome's on your system, go into Chrome's plugins (in the URL gadget, type chrome://plugins), and Disable Adobe's, so you're only using Chrome's version. They can cause problems if both are running at the same time in Chrome. B PS Don't do anything to the old machine. Network it and use it for backups. I prefer to copy the /home directory to the new machine first, not after, because there a lot of configuration files that may be overwritten or revised by the installer. Having your existing files there already means they won't overwrite updated configs later. I use KDE rather than Gnome and found out the hard way that Kontact considers my address book and calendar to be configuration settings when I upgraded from Etch to Squeeze. Most programs use the same configuration files for both 32 bit and 64 bit systems, so copying them over before the install means there is less reconfig to do later. And it gives you a second copy of the files in case something does get messed up. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cdc519.30...@rogers.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 06/27/2013 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Well , that was quite the debate :) Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - for now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Later I will re-install ( I am a little worried about the convoluted magical tricks which have to be performed to switch-over the system to 64 bit)...but I will preserve /home and perhaps one other directory. Again thanks to all for their contributions. I now know more than I ever did (which wasn't much) about 32 vs 64 bit :) -- Cheers Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cde8bb.90...@videotron.ca
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 28/06/13 03:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: On 06/27/2013 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Well , that was quite the debate :) Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - for now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Later I will re-install ( I am a little worried about the convoluted magical tricks which have to be performed to switch-over the system to 64 bit)...but I will preserve /home and perhaps one other directory. Again thanks to all for their contributions. I now know more than I ever did (which wasn't much) about 32 vs 64 bit :) There's not much convoluted about running 64bit. In your case, boot the new computer from a live CD/USB stick, partition the new drive and copy your old home directory to the new partition. Reboot into the installer or install from the live system and enjoy the 64bit world. The bit about copying the home folder is what you'd do anytime you want to install on a new machine. It has nothing to do with 32 vs 64 bit. The alternative, copying your old 32bit system completely to the new machine, takes just as long as installing a fresh system (this isn't Windows, after all). Of course, if you just wanted to plug the old drive into the new machine, you don't need to do anything. However, that would leave you with an old computer without a drive, which isn't much good unless you wanted to run it as a terminal booting off your new machine. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cdee7e@rogers.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
Dňa 28.06.2013 21:49 Frank McCormick wrote / napísal(a): On 06/27/2013 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Well , that was quite the debate :) Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - for now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Later I will re-install ( I am a little worried about the convoluted magical tricks which have to be performed to switch-over the system to 64 bit)...but I will preserve /home and perhaps one other directory. Some years ago (before lenny was released), when i buy my first amd64 machine i was the same questions. I don't worried about memory and disk usage, but about apps availability (the price/1 MB of disk and memory space is really low). But i decide to waste some time and first i install the i386 system and did some measuring. Some time latter (one day) i reinstall from start, but with the amd64 system – both the same Debian, the same DE, etc. The amd64 system was noticeable smaller load and CPU usage values. After this, i leaved the amd64 system installed. Yes, i was some problems, mostly caused by the unavailable amd64 version of software in these days, but today it is not true anymore (Opera, Flash, Java, etc). I have another computer from this time, but this one is still used by my daughter without reinstall, only testing updates :-) I don't know, what you have in your $HOME, but i simple copied whole my $HOME from old i386 system - scripts was worked and data was accessible (at least i don't remember any problems). The amd64 is architecture, where the word is going now, installing new i386 machine is contra productive... regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On Friday 28 June 2013 21:58:29 Slavko wrote: I don't know, what you have in your $HOME, but i simple copied whole my $HOME from old i386 system - scripts was worked and data was accessible (at least i don't remember any problems). +1 I was nervous and stuck to what worked for a bit, even on an AMD64 system. But I had no problems keeping /home intact on its own HDD and installing 64 bit, when I eventually took the plunge. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201306282314.13013.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 06/28/2013 04:13 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 28/06/13 03:49 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: On 06/27/2013 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Well , that was quite the debate :) Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - for now I will run regular 32-bit Sid..realizing I am wasting the opportunity to utilize more memory and perhaps faster operations. Of course, if you just wanted to plug the old drive into the new machine, you don't need to do anything. However, that would leave you with an old computer without a drive, which isn't much good unless you wanted to run it as a terminal booting off your new machine. Initially that is exactly what I plan to do - the old machine will go to our grandkids with a new HD ( I have several lying around ) for their net surfing and email. Added bonus from the whole situation. Thanks again -- Cheers Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ce253f.60...@videotron.ca
Switching to 64 bit
I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. Thanks for any advice. -- Cheers Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ccd4ce.5010...@videotron.ca
Re: Switching to 64 bit
Honestly, there's not really any major issue with Flash on 64-bit unless you use nspluginwrapper. Use native 64-bit flash. Debian's multilib is a lot better, so the only issue is maybe in support for software only available in 32-bit. Conrad On Jun 27, 2013 7:12 PM, Frank McCormick debianl...@videotron.ca wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. Thanks for any advice. -- Cheers Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.**debian.orgdebian-user-requ...@lists.debian.orgwith a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/**51ccd4ce.5010...@videotron.cahttp://lists.debian.org/51ccd4ce.5010...@videotron.ca
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ccfb5f.8080...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 27/06/13 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Not really. 32bit systems have memory limitations that you don't encounter with 64bit. Multiarch lets you run mixed architectures so there's no real hassle in switching to 64bit. The easiest way is just to do a fresh install as 64bit on the new machine, keeping your old system around in case you need files. You can copy your old /home directory to the new system before doing the installation. It should use all your old settings, etc. and your files should mostly be there, except for stuff stored in /var. System settings will still be preserved on your old machine in case you had anything special running on it. You can transfer your configuration files as required. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ccff18.7090...@rogers.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
It is a choice, but if you have a 64-bit machine, just use 64-bit. There's really no reason not to unless you're using some specialized application that doesn't work at all with multilib. And the benefits are nothing to dismiss. For one, you're actually getting the full use of your CPU. 32-bit can't address nearly as much memory natively, won't be able to use the fullest registers on the CPU, UEFI systems generally won't work too well with 32-bit operating systems, and 64-bit is slightly faster, and is actually demonstrably faster for database applications. The choice is yours, but I promise you're utterly wasting the potential of your hardware when you do that. On Thu, 2013-06-27 at 21:56 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 7:11 PM, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1372392329.24775.6.camel@twilight.heartbeat
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On 6/27/2013 10:12 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 27/06/13 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Not really. Yes, really. This is fact. Don't disagree with facts Gary, especially when I am the one stating them. And don't do it with a flexible spine. If you're going to disagree with me, take a firm stance. 32bit systems have memory limitations that you don't encounter with 64bit. There are two such limitations when using a PAE kernel and 32bit user space on x86-64, which are the same limitations on P6 class CPUs: 1. 64GB maximum physical memory 2. 2GB per process address space ~99.% of desktop Linux users will never exceed either of these. The same number of users have less than 64GB physical memory. For those who have trouble with percentages, this is 1 in a million users. Given your propensity for disagreeing with facts, I'll assume that you are also the type of person who infers intentions, or a position, that do not in fact exist. So I'll spell it out clearly: I am not *advocating* that people in masse run a 32bit software platform on x86-64 hardware. What I've done is state a valid option that may be preferable to the OP who posed the question. Instead of disagreeing with me, with the facts I presented, you should have simply stated your case for a full 64bit platform, in a standalone manner directly replying to the OP's post instead of my factual reply. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51cd0dd3.1060...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Switching to 64 bit
I'm sorry, but if you're using a 32-bit PAE kernel to address more that 4 GiB of RAM on a *64-bit machine* you are completely and utterly doing it wrong (In fact, you're doing it stupid.). PAE is slower, can't address anywhere near as much as native 64-bit can, and isn't as stable. Heck, even the Linux devs would rather people use native 64-bit than PAE on 64-bit machines. Unless there's some actual reason, like a 32-bit application you absolutely can't live without doesn't work with multilib, there is 100% no reason not to use 64-bit OS on a 64-bit CPU, and about several dozen good reasons why it's a stupid idea to limit yourself to 32-bit. On Thu, 2013-06-27 at 23:15 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 6/27/2013 10:12 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 27/06/13 10:56 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: You don't have to change anything. 32 bit Sid will run just fine on an x86-64 CPU. Switching to 64 bit software is a choice, not a requirement. Not really. Yes, really. This is fact. Don't disagree with facts Gary, especially when I am the one stating them. And don't do it with a flexible spine. If you're going to disagree with me, take a firm stance. 32bit systems have memory limitations that you don't encounter with 64bit. There are two such limitations when using a PAE kernel and 32bit user space on x86-64, which are the same limitations on P6 class CPUs: 1. 64GB maximum physical memory 2. 2GB per process address space ~99.% of desktop Linux users will never exceed either of these. The same number of users have less than 64GB physical memory. For those who have trouble with percentages, this is 1 in a million users. Given your propensity for disagreeing with facts, I'll assume that you are also the type of person who infers intentions, or a position, that do not in fact exist. So I'll spell it out clearly: I am not *advocating* that people in masse run a 32bit software platform on x86-64 hardware. What I've done is state a valid option that may be preferable to the OP who posed the question. Instead of disagreeing with me, with the facts I presented, you should have simply stated your case for a full 64bit platform, in a standalone manner directly replying to the OP's post instead of my factual reply. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1372393211.24775.10.camel@twilight.heartbeat
Re: Switching to 64 bit
Assumed I'm banned from this list, then I'm sorry that I reply by another email account, in this case I won't do it again, but perhaps it's just an issue with the servers of my ISP, that does cause, that my mails don't come through the list. I didn't receive any notification, neither that there are server issues (postmaster), nor hat I'm banned (listmaster). Forwarded Message From: Ralf Mardorf ralf mardorf@alice-dsl net To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Switching to 64 bit Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:30:12 +0200 The short answer: Backup your current Linux and then switch to 64-bit. What happens is between no noticeable changes and noticeable advantages. I'm not aware about any drawbacks. The long answer: On Thu, 2013-06-27 at 19:44 -0500, Yaro Yaro wrote: Honestly, there's not really any major issue with Flash on 64-bit unless you use nspluginwrapper. Use native 64-bit flash. Debian's multilib is a lot better, so the only issue is maybe in support for software only available in 32-bit. Conrad On Jun 27, 2013 7:12 PM, Frank McCormick debianl...@videotron.ca wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. Thanks for any advice. Ouch! regarding to nspluginwrapper, regarding to http://packages.debian.org/search?suite=squeezearch=amd64keywords=nspluginwrapper it's only available for [squeeze] , but not for [squeeze-updates] [squeeze-backports] [wheezy] [wheezy-backports] [jessie] [sid] [experimental], however, http://wiki.debian.org/Flash Adobe Flash Player for a long time is available for 64-bit architecture, but NOTE: Adobe Flash Player 11.2 will be the last version to target Linux as a supported platform. Adobe will continue to provide security backports to Flash Player 11.2 for Linux. - http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=JZEFT The good news, for many videos Flash Player isn't needed anymore, the bad news, it's still needed for some videos, e.g. if they start with a commercial, if you want to watch such videos or you want to visit sides that make usage of another unique Flash thingy, then soon or later you're screwed. 32-bit software usually does run on 64-bit architecture without issues, the only exceptions I know are native Windows applications, such as native Windows VSTs. I never had issues using 64-bit architecture, using it for years, but I don't make usage of Windows applications, I really prefer Linux ;). I wonder that people use Linux, when they like to get all that Windows crap. Really, the best way to make usage of Windows things is running Windows. If there's more interest in Linux applications, then the answer is ... there are no issues with 64-bit architecture. Perhaps there will be issues when updating from 32-bit to 64-bit, but not when making a new install. Kernels are ok, apps are ok, nothing is less good using 64-bit. You won't notice a difference or if you notice a difference, then 64-bit will be better. YMMV! Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1372396013.6891.28.camel@archlinux
Re: Switching to 64 bit
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013, Frank McCormick wrote: I am running 32 bit Sid and am thinking about a new computer which has a 64 bit Intel CPU. How much of a hassle will it be switching my installation over ? I know there are some problems with Flash but what about the kernel and so forth- I am not a newby but this is the first time I've considered a a major change. Thanks for any advice. Don't switch anything over. Do a clean 64-bit install on the new machine. Your life will be so much easier. Once you're set up and configured, copy over the contents of your 32-bit home directory to the 64-bit one. Done. As far as Flash, I use the Chrome browser which comes with its own version, 32-bit for 32-bit systems or 64-bit for 64-bit ones. It's much better than Adobe's. One thing though: if you have both Adobe Flash and Chrome's on your system, go into Chrome's plugins (in the URL gadget, type chrome://plugins), and Disable Adobe's, so you're only using Chrome's version. They can cause problems if both are running at the same time in Chrome. B PS Don't do anything to the old machine. Network it and use it for backups. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130627223056.0d755...@debian7.boseck208.net
