bluetooth keyboard done gone nuts
i use a logitech k270 keyboard and mouse for several years we had power outage for a couple of days now the keyboard is nuts the mouse works i get odd multiple sequences with a few, not all, keys if i type "ls" i get "l7s9u" space is "[ " there are a dozen or so other keys that are screwy this machine is running bullseye i plugged the dongle into a machine running bookworm and the same i got to a console via ctrl+alt+f1 and the same keyboard has fresh batteries
keyboard and mouse just stuck
Hi, Thanks for reading, and I need some help. Description: About 2024 Mar 14 0:0:0, I use the shortcut 'Ctrl + Alt + L', lock the screen, after several hours, I want to login the computer. Then, I click one mouse, and type one enter key, the screen light, and everything stuck and stop. The mouse and keyboard cant click, cant move, cant type. And this is [log](https://github.com/jwbda/debian/blob/main/mouse_keyboard_problem) of `sudo journalctl --since "2024-03-11" --until "2024-03-15"` command.https://github.com/jwbda/debian/blob/main/mouse_keyboard_problem And if you need anything to solve this problem, just feel free to tell me. Thank you so much Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed 21 Feb 2024 at 23:16:41 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > > keyboards. > > > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. > > And is their layout identical? No: Great Britain, GB, and United States, US. British keyboards have an extra key left of Z; yes, that Z. It's engraved with \|. There is also an extra key in the ASDFG… row. It's left of the Return key, which has a different shape, being merged with the key above, ie the \| key. Of course, that reduces the number of keys in the QWERTY… row. Which in turn leads to displacements of the following symbols: ~, @, #, \, |, ", and allows the addition of two more: ¬ and £. > If isn't, do all the keys on both > keyboards what you expect them to do? Yes, as engraved. There are a lot of shifted key combinations too, but on the whole I prefer to use Compose sequences, as I find them more logical. I got used to using them long before I got my first PC. Rather than remembering which shifted key types ©, I prefer typing CapsLock c o (or o c) instead. And I've chosen some of the more obscure ones for myself, eg CapsLock # d s for 턪 and CapsLock # d b for 턫. > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? The OS sends a code and the keyboard returns some bytes, which the OS interprets as a description. For a keyboard as old as the IBM, I guess it would be fairly rudimentary, but perhaps it's more expansive for modern keyboards. I think the OS can also send programming codes to some modern keyboards to modify their behaviour. The properties that udev discovers and deduces can be found in /run/udev/data/c13\:* (amongst a load of other character devices). The implications of those properties would be found, presumably, in the drivers. [ … ] > But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys > like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is > Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver > substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order > to make the keyobard usable for PCs. I don't know anything about this keyboard apart from reading that new ones contain some model of Raspberry, making it easier to reflash the controller. > Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that > don't exist (for PCs)? Why would the kernel developers restrict themselves to one architecture? [ … ] > You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I think F18 is being treated as a Left-shifted F6, except that it releases the Shift before releasing F6, whereas a typist would normally release Shift after F6. > I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only > by accidident. > > > > For the backtab key it says: > > > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > > NumLock appears to be on. > > It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key > labeled Dup/Insert. OK, I actually thought it might be the key left of Dup/Insert because I didn't know that symbol, whereas the key left of Delete appears to have the same symbol as the keyboard's Enter key (almost next to it). It looks as if it sends codes similar to F18, using Control instead of Shift, but in the same unconventional order. AFAICT the two keys you pressed happen to be ones that don't react to NumLock being set. > > Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys. > > Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard > for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys? https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/albums/72157650296043599/with/15857592493 looks ancient enough not to be USB, but
Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
10,916 V looks a bit odd to me. After your comments, I looking forward about the battery voltage and I found this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-choose-laptop-battery-king-sener/ "Voltage is closely related to the number of cells in the battery - typically a 10.8V battery has 6 cells and a 14.4V battery has 8 cells." https://superuser.com/questions/33207/laptop-battery-is-voltage-really-important-to-respect https://superuser.com/a/406492 "The first stage is adapter which is nearly 5 V higher than the battery rating voltage to charge it faster to the full. Now the second stage is the motherboard or processor which typically runs at 5 V and for that you have voltage regulator inside." At 98%, the voltage here is: battery present: yes rechargeable:yes state: charging warning-level: none energy: 36,0417 Wh energy-empty:0 Wh energy-full: 36,3858 Wh energy-full-design: 59,94 Wh energy-rate: 1,8537 W voltage: 12,734 V charge-cycles: N/A time to full:11,1 minutes percentage: 99% capacity:60,7037% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charging-symbolic' I found that this battery I bought in 2019. However, it is pretty good yet! -- Marcelo
Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
Is it possible that the USB ports do not supply power once the laptop is running on battery? Does the NumLock LED of the keyboard go out? On Thu, 2024-02-22 at 13:49 -0300, Marcelo Laia wrote: > Dear Debian Users, > > Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, the > issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the age of the > hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as indicated below: > > Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014 > > Some hardware details: > > - BIOS: >- Vendor: Dell Inc. >- Version: A13 >- Date: 05/27/2019 > - CPU: >- Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz > - Memory: >- Size: 16GB > > Today, the battery still had 66% charge when this strange problem occurred. > It's worth mentioning that in all these days, between my last post here on > the list and today, I always use the battery until it reaches between 20-10%, > at which point I plug in the charger and let it charge until it reaches > 95-100%. > > I ran the following commands: > > With the power cable plugged into the power grid, i.e., the battery is > charging: > > :~$ sudo lsusb -t > > /: Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M > |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M > |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M > |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M > |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M > |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, > Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M > |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M > |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M > /: Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M > |__ Port 002: Dev 007, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, > Driver=usbhid, 1.5M > /: Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M > :~$ > > :~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/ > 1-1 1-1.5 1-1.6 1-1.7 1-1.8 2-2 bind module uevent unbind usb1 > usb2 usb3 > :~$ > > After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging: > > After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse remains > active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it also becomes > disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal keyboard are > functional. > > :~$ sudo lsusb -t > > /: Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M > |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M > |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M > |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M > |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M > |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, > Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M > |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M > |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M > /: Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M > /: Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M > :~$ > > ~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/ > 1-1 1-1.5 1-1.6 1-1.7 1-1.8 bind module uevent unbind usb1 usb2 > usb3 > :~$ > > :~$ echo '2-2' | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind > 2-2 > tee: /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind: No device > :~$ > > :~$ upower --dump > Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_ACAD >native-path: ACAD >power supply: yes >updated: qui 22 fev 2024 13:23:50 (182 seconds ago) >has history: no >has statistics: no >line-power > warning-level: none > online: no > icon-name: 'ac-adapter-symbolic' > > Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 >native-path: BAT1 >vendor: SANYO >model:DELL WYT3M94Q >serial: 0038 >power supply: yes >updated: qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago) >has history: yes >has statistics: yes >battery > present: yes > rechargeable:yes > state: discharging > warning-level: none > energy: 23,9982 Wh > energy-empty:0 Wh > energy-full: 36,4857 Wh > energy-full-design: 59,94 Wh > energy-rate: 30,0588 W > voltage: 10,916 V > charge-cycles: N/A > time to empty: 47,9 minutes
Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
On Thu 22 Feb 2024 at 13:49:54 (-0300), Marcelo Laia wrote: > Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014 > > Some hardware details: > > - BIOS: > - Vendor: Dell Inc. > - Version: A13 > - Date: 05/27/2019 > - CPU: > - Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz > - Memory: > - Size: 16GB [ … ] > After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging: > > After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse > remains active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it > also becomes disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal > keyboard are functional. [ … ] > Any other suggestions? It seems to me that it's not related to > power, however, what is the specific list for energy-related issues? My advice would be to prepare for a day when you see nothing from the moment you switch it on. Here's a log of what happened with my Dell D430 laptop, purchased in 2008 as a stop-gap, acquired by me in 2009. First the battery packs: 2014-02-12 Large battery started to go bad. Charging light started constantly flashing a pattern: four yellows and a longer green. Apart from that, everything works ok: the battery stays at five lights, and the acpi variables all show sensible values. However, the battery discharges much more quickly than it should, particularly early on, so some cells probably don't work properly. 2015-03-29 Started to switch itself off when the power cable was disconnected. It appears that the battery is not actually connected to the computer when this happens. 2015-03-31 The large battery finally gave up. When the charge button is pressed, only LEDS 1, 3 and 5 light up, but flashing. Otherwise, dead. Disposed of the large battery in Best Buy's foyer and started using the small one. And the screen: 2011-10-21 Started to switch itself off unaccountably every so often. No freeze, no kernel panic, but just like holding down the power switch. It will have been running a while, and usually it happens when the machine or lid is moved. 2017-01-22 After a day or two of slight flickering in brightness, the screen blanked out a few times during the day. The machine was still running, and so X could be quit and restarted, and rebooted too. The screen would come back, but often disappear almost immediately, even while the Dell splash screen was being displayed at switch-on. It went away entirely the same day. 2018-06-19 After being depowered for a week, the battery capacity had fallen to 2%. However, on AC the screen started working again, though it just flickered a little all the time. Took the opportunity to demote Internal HDD to below USB and Optical Drive in the BIOS. Got about three minutes before it reverted. 2020-04-16 Started to crash, and eventually failed to boot. Obviously difficult to diagnose when there's no display at power-on, so scrapped. If you're wondering why I kept it so long, I could use an external monitor to display its X server screen, but neither the BIOS nor the console would work that way, so I had to type blind until I got into X. With a 30 second countdown, I could operate the Grub screen blind. I also managed to install buster in text mode by copying what I typed while installing on another PC at the same time. (I might have been able to clone jessie into the other partition, but that would have then required two dist-upgrades.) Cheers, David.
Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 13:49:54 -0300 Marcelo Laia wrote: > Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, > the issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the > age of the hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as > indicated below: A stab in the dark: I take it that you ran the upower --dump command while the battery was discharging. 10,916 V looks a bit odd to me. What does a dump show when the battery is fully charged? I wonder if that voltage is too low to support the laptop. My two ancient Lenovos (2011 and 2012) are both showing much better values than that. The difference between the energy-full and energy-full-design values, and the capacity both lead me to wonder if it isn't time to buy a new battery (or maybe a new or refurbished laptop). -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
Dear Debian Users, Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, the issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the age of the hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as indicated below: Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014 Some hardware details: - BIOS: - Vendor: Dell Inc. - Version: A13 - Date: 05/27/2019 - CPU: - Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz - Memory: - Size: 16GB Today, the battery still had 66% charge when this strange problem occurred. It's worth mentioning that in all these days, between my last post here on the list and today, I always use the battery until it reaches between 20-10%, at which point I plug in the charger and let it charge until it reaches 95-100%. I ran the following commands: With the power cable plugged into the power grid, i.e., the battery is charging: :~$ sudo lsusb -t /: Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M /: Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M |__ Port 002: Dev 007, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, Driver=usbhid, 1.5M /: Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M :~$ :~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/ 1-1 1-1.5 1-1.6 1-1.7 1-1.8 2-2 bind module uevent unbind usb1 usb2 usb3 :~$ After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging: After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse remains active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it also becomes disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal keyboard are functional. :~$ sudo lsusb -t /: Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M /: Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M /: Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M :~$ ~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/ 1-1 1-1.5 1-1.6 1-1.7 1-1.8 bind module uevent unbind usb1 usb2 usb3 :~$ :~$ echo '2-2' | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind 2-2 tee: /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind: No device :~$ :~$ upower --dump Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_ACAD native-path: ACAD power supply: yes updated: qui 22 fev 2024 13:23:50 (182 seconds ago) has history: no has statistics: no line-power warning-level: none online: no icon-name: 'ac-adapter-symbolic' Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: SANYO model:DELL WYT3M94Q serial: 0038 power supply: yes updated: qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable:yes state: discharging warning-level: none energy: 23,9982 Wh energy-empty:0 Wh energy-full: 36,4857 Wh energy-full-design: 59,94 Wh energy-rate: 30,0588 W voltage: 10,916 V charge-cycles: N/A time to empty: 47,9 minutes percentage: 65% capacity:60,8704% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-symbolic' History (charge): 1708619191 65,000 discharging 1708619161 66,000 discharging 1708619101 67,000 discharging History (rate): 1708619101 30,059 discharging Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/DisplayDevice power supply: yes updated: qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago) has history: no has statistics: no battery present: yes state: discharging warning-level: none energy: 23,9982 Wh energy-full: 36,4857 Wh energy-rate: 30,0588 W charge-cycles: N/A time to empty: 47,9 minutes percentage
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > [...] > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > keyboards. > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. And is their layout identical? If isn't, do all the keys on both keyboards what you expect them to do? > In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the > table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two > screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > > key combinations instead? > > > > > > That would be difficult: > > I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half > a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: I have no intention of doing something like that. > "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or > even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there > duplicate keys?" > > That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > > > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. > > I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in > udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. Perhaps what I have been reading wasn't true, or things have changed and it is now possible to have more keys. It was sufficiently long ago for things to have been changed. But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order to make the keyobard usable for PCs. Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that don't exist (for PCs)? > > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > > and how does xev identify them? > > > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. > > It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > > > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] > > Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear > to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only by accidident. > > For the backtab key it says: > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > NumLock appears to be on. It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key labeled Dup/Insert. > > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. > > That's odd—911QQZnU
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > [...] > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > keyboards. Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > key combinations instead? > > > > That would be difficult: I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys?" That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > and how does xev identify them? > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. > For the backtab key it says: Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, NumLock appears to be on. > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24. Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved > > with "-". > > I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the > symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer > on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would originally have produced. > > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is > > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending > > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's > great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on > every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like > F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my &g
Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
On 15/02/2024 12:39, David Wright wrote: I would go further than tomas, and suggest that the battery might be suspect, or the charging circuit of course. (None of my three laptops works without AC power.) How old is it? Battery health may be estimated from output of upower --dump by comparison energy-full-design, energy-full, and other values. I still believe it is excessively aggressive power settings in GNOME or in firmware (BIOS) setup. Maybe it is result of shooting own foot by tools like powertop or tlp. Anyway it is rather wrong settings than wrong behavior. There is a chance that the issue is with USB controller driver. Likely it is better to ask the same question in a user group more specific to power management.
Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
On Wed 14 Feb 2024 at 20:09:09 (-0300), Marcelo Laia wrote: > Unfortunately, the issue has worsened. Today, I observed that upon unplugging > the power cable, within one or two seconds, the screen dims (brightness is > set to zero), and both the external mouse and keyboard (USB) stop working. > Even if I try to use the keyboard or mouse, they do not reactivate. Only the > laptop's internal touchpad and keyboard continue to function. When I > reconnect the power cable, both the external mouse and keyboard resume > working automatically. However, I need to manually adjust the screen > brightness. I have not installed the usbguard package. Could there be another > underlying cause? I would go further than tomas, and suggest that the battery might be suspect, or the charging circuit of course. (None of my three laptops works without AC power.) How old is it? Cheers, David.
Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop
Dear Debian community, Thank you for your insights. Unfortunately, the issue has worsened. Today, I observed that upon unplugging the power cable, within one or two seconds, the screen dims (brightness is set to zero), and both the external mouse and keyboard (USB) stop working. Even if I try to use the keyboard or mouse, they do not reactivate. Only the laptop's internal touchpad and keyboard continue to function. When I reconnect the power cable, both the external mouse and keyboard resume working automatically. However, I need to manually adjust the screen brightness. I have not installed the usbguard package. Could there be another underlying cause? Best regards, -- Marcelo
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added > > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted > > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which > > is a far more important feature. > > It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than > one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to. Sure it is, and when you do that, it's even more important to be able to change the layout because you have to do it for all the languages you're used to typing in --- and for all the keyboards you're using. I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between keyboards. I don't know if that's possible, but I expect it to be possible since USB makes it easily possible to have multiple keyboards connected at the same time. So like in gnome settings, all the connected keyboards need to show up so that I can pick a layout for each and then change their layouts as I need them. If that doesn't work it's a bug. Actually, I just tried it and it doesn't work :( The German keyboard gets an US layout just like the US keyboard; it doesn't show up in gnome settings, and there is no way to select a keyboard and to pick a layout for it. That really sucks --- I can only assume that developers don't want to have to do anything with keyboard layouts, which might explain why it has always been a nightmare to get a keyboard to work right and still is. > > > > [...] > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > > > shifting ones (win and fn). > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > key combinations instead? > > That would be difficult: That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. About 20 years ago I've seen a machine with terminals running some HP Unix that had keyboards like that. They were networked through token ring coax cables and had been used to run some CAD software which had been replaced with, IIRC, autocad, but there were still files people sometimes needed to retrieve from them, via NFS IIRC. They were nice keyboards and had connectors that wouldn't fit any PC. > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > and how does xev identify them? I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. When I press F18, for example, wev says: , | [11: wl_data_device] selection: id: 4278190081 | [13: wl_pointer] motion: time: 665008611; x, y: 617.781250, 467.316406 | [13: wl_pointer] frame | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270273; time: 665012185; key: 50; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270274; group: 0 | depressed: 0001: Shift | latched: | locked: 0010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270275; time: 665012185; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: F6
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > [...] > > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. > > > > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject > > line. > > It doesn't concern me. > > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which > is a far more important feature. It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to. > > > [...] > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > > shifting ones (win and fn). > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > key combinations instead? That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, and how does xev identify them? The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved with "-". The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > > all now. > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > No, it's about keyboards and computers. Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up? As for figuring out keyboards, I would say that Xorg does a pretty flexible job. There are plenty of preselected options available in /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst, and I guess you can override all you like with /etc/X11/xkb/ to get whatever you like. Not that I've needed to do so, as the options provided work here AFAICT. > Can you show me a keyboard > that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout > so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any > configuration required? No, not without /any/ configuration. I'm guessing that you mean an EDID-like PROM that completely describes the layout of every key. I don't know that keyboard manufacturers have ever looked at something like that, at least for detached keyboards. But even then, it's likely that some configuration would be necessary as people exercise their own preferences over at least such things as CapsLock's behaviour and placement. If such advances led to an inability to tweak the layout, I'd see that as a backward step. > I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian > or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the > keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary. > When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the > keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the > installation. > > I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US > one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one > keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't > make a difference. > > I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens > when I press the same key on either, like the = key
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
Greg writes: > To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a > different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think > *most* people would assume the former. I think the possibility of *altering* the keyboard layout would not even occur to most users. -- John Hasler j...@sugarbit.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 06:58:39AM +0100, hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > layouts. No, I can assure you, it is ambiguous. To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think *most* people would assume the former. Compare to "change clothing". If a parent says they want you to go upstairs and change your shirt, they *most likely* mean they want you to select a different shirt. They would be quite surprised if you altered your shirt with a knife and some magic markers.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. > > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject > line. It doesn't concern me. > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and never about switching between different keyboards or between different layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which is a far more important feature. > > [...] > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > shifting ones (win and fn). 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending key combinations instead? > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > all now. > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. No, it's about keyboards and computers. Can you show me a keyboard that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any configuration required? I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary. When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the installation. I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't make a difference. I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that be? Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a layout for each one manually? > > [...] > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. > > I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references > that say something quite different. About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it? What are those references? I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time. > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > users haven't noticed yet. > > > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > > alternative for servers. > > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have > an awful lot of them. I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't understand.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > > been around for 30 years. > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject line. It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been > troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added > over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every > keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays > were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines > manually. My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are shifting ones (win and fn). > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > all now. I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references that say something quite different. > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > users haven't noticed yet. > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > alternative for servers. I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have an awful lot of them. Cheers, David.
solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > [...] > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift. Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :) [ids] * [main] ` = ~ [shift] ` = ` [1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the > context of GNOME and I don't need that again. Discussions are tiresome, yes. Knowing it won't go well, it's important to keep them short. > But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better. I'm not very optimistic. But I suspect that a thousand similar bug reports are harder to discard as marginal than one or two. Stefan
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw wrote: ... >> $80 for what i have now was acceptable. > > Which one is that? It must be an unusually sturdy one. Or did you > put a metal plate under it? Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard it is solid but stiff, it is also pretty quiet compared to a model M and has no feel like it either, but i can cope with that. the question is how long will it last? :) i will find out... if i can get three years out of it then i'm ahead of my trend with keyboards. with mice it has been even worse, but that was another thread... [complete aside] texting on a phone is freaking hideous, i don't know how people get things done with those. thank goodness most phones have e-mail to text ways of sending and getting messages. songbird
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: > hw wrote: > > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > [...] > > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > > > four major ways: > > > > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. > > If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are > mentioned as the second of the four ways. Strange, it's also in the part you quoted. I don't understand how I missed that, sorry.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote: >> hw wrote: >> ... >> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change >> > the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though. >> > Maybe someone knows where that is? >> >> in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch >> around keyboards and common keys being swapped. > > Does that work with wayland? i'm using Debian testing, so whatever MATE is at in there in respect to wayland is where i'm at. i haven't intentionally prevented changes from happening, but i'm also not sure wayland is fully supported in MATE in testing right now. i think though that i run X11 still. > With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~. > There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of > others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind > atm. > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German > keyboard? It's insane. i had 3 weeks of German in college about 40 years ago. that's it other than Hogan's Heroes... so, the answer would be no. >> i don't use them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has >> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long >> time. > > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss > fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly. I'd > like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too > buggy. When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all. > > The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with > tiling WMs. I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do > floating windows just as well, and they don't do that. > > I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of > having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's > no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ... > > Maybe give Gnome another try. It does have its advantages, and it > can't hurt to check it out. good luck. i don't have time or space to try GNOME out again. i went a long torturous route via GNOME, to KDE and back to GNOME for a short while and then disgusted at it went to MATE and have been mostly happy there. it is a consistent interface enough that it doesn't get in my way. that's what i wanted stability and those others kept destroying my efforts (or more accurately my lack of the desire to figure out a new method of doing the same thing without the interface making the wrong assumptions about what i wanted it to do (stay out of the way :) ))... > The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other > things) a great deal. So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get > 122 keys. > > Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp? no idea. i'm content with 104. i rarely use odd keys. i have to retrain myself to use the number pad because it really is faster for when i'm editing numbers or doing data entry. songbird
Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 02:55:30PM +0100, hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German > > > keyboard? It's insane. > > > > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one, [...] > > But floats? Where's the problem? > > I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the > number pad [...] Ah, that was the missing piece, thanks. [...] > > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it! > > Then why aren't you using fvwm? Gnome is more your enemy than your > ally since it still lacks almost all configurability. I /am/ using fvwm. Everything else would drive me nuts (more than I am, already). Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote: > > [...] > > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German > > keyboard? It's insane. > > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one, > although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this > one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard > and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though... > > But floats? Where's the problem? I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the number pad, with one hand. Unless you change the keyboard layout so you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one hand. Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to enter such numbers. Even then it would be nuisance. > > [...] > > > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss > > fvwm [...] > > That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in > XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is > *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking > at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the > little skull for the cursor :-) > > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it! Then why aren't you using fvwm? Gnome is more your enemy than your ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.
Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:32 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: > > [...] > > > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String > > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...] > > Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"... Hm I guess that's one way of controlling someone. For a computer, you might have to put some variable resistors into a buch of wires to make it work. But they're way too digital for that.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a > Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the > A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for > Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I > used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the > A), and would work both in X and in console mode. Wow that's a very tall order! > The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, > was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is > managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different > keyboard models. > > This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, > and somewhat poorly documented. At least there is a way :) Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere? I was thinking if I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then modify it they way I need it. Or is that approach not even feasible? I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done with xmodmap. > And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI > config tools for it. Well, I prefer that. > Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev. Is wayland using this XKB thing? When I run 'setxkbmap -print -verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an Xwayland server'. Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or that we're not supposed to use XKB? > https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ > (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa > > Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were > /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) That's an interesting file indeed! So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not having to press Shift. I. e. the key is the first key on top row of my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get a tilde. Wev says 'key: 49'. That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file. Now what? > /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package) According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist. > Gotchas include: > Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) > Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb. > For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the > same as the example/sample config files. It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards. That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop. Perhaps he would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report as described in the file. Then these keys may end up working for everyone with such a laptop. > If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of > your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) > instead of giving an error message. Hm, that's bad ... Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case. I could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to specify my keyboard to make settings for it.
Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote: [...] > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...] Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"... =:-o Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:04:16PM +0100, hw wrote: > ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/ > total 0 > drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 0 Jan 22 01:00 . > drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb 5 13:03 .. > > But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently. unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev hwdb.d/ rules.d/ udev.conf unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev/hwdb.d/ unicorn:~$ Looks like a blank slate. Create your own rules, at your own risk.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
Brian Sammon wrote: > On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 > hw wrote: > > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard > > layout? > > I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, > and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where > you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for > Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I > used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the > A), and would work both in X and in console mode. > > The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, > was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is > managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different > keyboard models. > > This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, > and somewhat poorly documented. And it's an edit-the-configfile > system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it. > > It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a > scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean > them up. The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour > (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it > would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself. > > Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input > https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ > (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) > https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent. > Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were > /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) > /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev > package) > > Gotchas include: > Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) > Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) > For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the > same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev > will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you > might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message. >
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 10:57 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > [...] > OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to > my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang > up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed > to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out > how to map that to a single insert. That is another good example that we need to be able to change the keyboard layout. When these strange keys create scan codes and you're using Xorg, it's probably easy to remap them with xmodmap. Just change their mapping to what usually the insert key is mapped to. > [...] > As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met > many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key. It's 'Ctrl'. There is no German translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong. A more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong for this key. If someone says 'String' that only shows that they have no clue what they're talking about. 'Strg' means nothing. It's another failure like 'allgemeine Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of 'segementation fault'. 'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing. A lot of things don't translate into German and the people who are creating such translations don't know what the term they are trying to translate means and thus come up with such nonsense. I never read any documentation in German because the transation is always garbage and not understandable; you have to read it in English for it to make any sense. Computers and software were not created and developed in Germany but in the US and thus fit into the English language and not into German. That's still the case, and German doesn't have the necessary words. There's probably more to it, like computers being part of the worlds American peoeple live in while not being part of the worlds Germans live in, with a few exceptions, so they never made it into the language. There is still not even a word for 'computer' in German (there is no word for cellphone, either). Germany has been cut off, and it shows. When you need to tell a German to press Ctrl, you have to tell them to press Strg. They won't find the Ctrl key and they won't find the Steuerung key. Those keys aren't on German keyboards. I don't know why they changed that, it used be Ctrl on Germany keyboards. People used to be able to find the Ctrl key when you told them to press Control. It's just bullshit, they should never have changed it, and it's stupid and annoying.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > [...] > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > > four major ways: > > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are mentioned as the second of the four ways. > The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and > since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other > characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being > rather awkward and difficult to use. Whoever created it has > completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters. > > And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key. That also has > consequences that make things worse. > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout > >
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote: > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > > wayland, I can't do that anymore > > Untested: > > https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html > User-specific XKB configuration - part 1 > > and I have heard about a low-level trick > > /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb > evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24* > KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14 ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/ total 0 drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 0 Jan 22 01:00 . drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb 5 13:03 .. But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently. > However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be > handled by device firmware. IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122. There used to be terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit PCs. So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC can understand. In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware translates keys like F14 to Shift+4. IIRC that was the classical way to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software). There is probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't exist for a PC. This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also translates to something a PC can understand.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
Hi, Loris Bennett wrote: > As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met > many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why BASIC ? Or the popular bundle theory: [Strg] (= [Ctrl]) means "String", [AltGr] (= right side [Alt]) means "Altgriechisch" (= ancient greek), [Entf] (= [Delete]) means "Entfetten" (= degrease). Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 11:35:34AM +0100, hw wrote: [...] > > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > > an outright solution [...] > It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth. I was following this thread with some interest. Now, I'm out. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 09:17 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > and for almost 30 years we had > > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session > > numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. > Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a > gap of at most a few years. NumLock has been around well before 2002. > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup=5154 > > https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ > > May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be > more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the > environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or > plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to > simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible > solution simply brush it off? Nobody has yet suggested a solution to how to change keyboard layouts when using wayland. > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend > them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending > or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even > reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an > answer to share. It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > [...] > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > been around for 30 years. I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines manually. We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at all now. > > [...] > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian users haven't noticed yet. Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good alternative for servers.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
hw writes: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: >> hw writes: >> >> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: >> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): >> > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. >> > > >> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, >> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes >> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable >> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard >> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ >> > > localization experience. >> > >> > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. >> > >> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With >> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- >> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on >> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be >> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a >> > German layout. >> >> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and >> regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German >> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the >> default shortcut of 'Super + space'. > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't > change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German > layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be > able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and > layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for > the keyboard to be usable. OK, now I am with you. Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me. I have tried and failed to remap them. The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out how to map that to a single insert. > And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for > example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an > US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you > have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like > 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed > to mean? As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'. I am not sure why > So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there > no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there > should be? > > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. > > It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between > switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But > the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. > > > [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet. -- This signature is currently under constuction.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a gap of at most a few years. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup=5154 https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible solution simply brush it off? Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an answer to share. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100 hw wrote: > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness. I wanted a solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode. The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev. You can have different remappings for different keyboard models. This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and somewhat poorly documented. And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it. It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up. The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself. Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info) https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev) /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package) Gotchas include: Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?) Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?) For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:24:32AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional > > working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not > > aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an > > environment has the motivation to do so. > > I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for > the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file > feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard). > > AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but > that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland. I lost that optimism long time ago. If I felt a genuine interest, I'd put up with all the inconveniences involved, but I just don't. I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the context of GNOME and I don't need that again. But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]
On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote: [...] > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German > keyboard? It's insane. While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one, although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though... But floats? Where's the problem? [...] > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss > fvwm [...] That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the little skull for the cursor :-) Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it! Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional > working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not > aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an > environment has the motivation to do so. I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard). AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland. Stefan
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. At this point, I believe there are folks who *believe* that Wayland is the future, and that everyone should switch to it sooner rather than later. I also believe that there are people who are happily using it. Most people who use it probably don't even know they're using it. What I *know*, however, is that there are some people who are never going to switch until (a) the decision is taken away from them, by X no longer working, or (b) a fully equivalent Wayland environment can be created to take the place of their existing X environment. I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an environment has the motivation to do so.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > > [...] > > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > > of those. > > > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > > goes. > > Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such > a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. man keyboard perhaps? (First paragraph in Description.) > Try to get a > German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. > > It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the > question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that > into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring > that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Would you get more help on the German list, as one might expect people there to be using German layouts more frequently? caps:ctrl_modifier Caps Lock is also a Ctrl xorg.conf is only omitted because by default it is empty. I drop a small file into xorg.conf.d just because the side buttons on one of my mice are a nuisance. But I don't resent not having to specify all those Screens, Monitors and Devices that used to be necessary. > Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some > ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. > So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and > if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then > do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the > other way round). As I have NumLock turned off, and never turn it on, I haven't had occasion to use IgnoreModifiers in fvwm, but IgnoreModifiers 2 is meant to ignore that modifier. > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > good way to change the keyboard layouts! I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's been around for 30 years. > > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > > keyboard(5) man page. > > "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in > /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the > console." > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. Cheers, David.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri 02 Feb 2024 at 20:25:09 (-0500), Lee wrote: > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( > > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert > about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. > > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? > > I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok. > Not great but OK. > I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than > nothing but too thick for regular use. > And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick, > the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of > the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740) Most of the time I use a Logitech K520, bought with a unified mouse, though I use it with a wired optical mouse. We have another K520 and a K540, also with mice, though the mice are scattered around. The 540 says Logitech Europe, though it's a US layout like the rest. I also have an M 1391406 keyboard from 1988, with a GB layout, so it's got 102 keys. I use it on a 2011 Dell tower (which has PS/2 connectors), paired with a 20-year old Logitech Pilot 3-button. In a cupboard we've also got a couple of MS Internet Pros (US) and a Viglen (GB), all USB wired. I don't like their touch. Cheers, David.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote: With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With wayland, I can't do that anymore Untested: https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html User-specific XKB configuration - part 1 and I have heard about a low-level trick /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24* KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14 However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be handled by device firmware.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 06/02/2024 03:59, Michael Kjörling wrote: Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just about forever. GNOME developers decided that they do not want to support all "bells and whistles" of XKB, e.g. layout switch using CapsLock and Shift+CapsLock. So some features configurable through /etc/default/keyboard are not available.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 2/5/24 14:11, Ash Joubert wrote: On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote: Logitech K270 full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine I use a Logitech MK270r good tip, packaged with a mouse for $6 more thanks. I will get that bundle next time Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the same keyboard. Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power switches on both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and not too loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have several of these sets for my various work and home computers. Cheers,
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > > [...] > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > of those. > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > goes. Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. Try to get a German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the other way round). How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a good way to change the keyboard layouts! > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > keyboard(5) man page. "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the console." Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote: Logitech K270 full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine I use a Logitech MK270r Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the same keyboard. Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power switches on both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and not too loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have several of these sets for my various work and home computers. Cheers, -- Ash Joubert (they/them) Director / Game Developer Transient Software Limited <https://transient.nz/> New Zealand
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > [...] > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > four major ways: It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being rather awkward and difficult to use. Whoever created it has completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters. And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key. That also has consequences that make things worse. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Lee wrote: > >I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( > >ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert >about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't >work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. > >I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. >which keyboard do you like and why? I used to love the old IBM Model M, and I used a few of those over the years until I started having trouble with USB-PS/2 adapters. Then I tried a new Unicomp USB keyboard. Very similar feel, as you'd expect, but it didn't have the same build quality and the lower row of keys started to die after ~5 years or so. It was also *very* loud, enough to be a problem even in my home office. About 2y aho I picked up a Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry MX Brown switches. I'm loving it - full size and a good level of mechanical tactile feedback WITHOUT ALL THE NOISE ALL THE TIME. Very much recommended. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky, Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0800, James H. H. Lampert wrote: > On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote: > > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > > which keyboard do you like and why? > > Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling > spring technology. > > If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards. ... and trackballs like CST ones, and full metal versions.
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?
On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from h...@adminart.net (hw): > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history goes. The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the keyboard(5) man page. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote: > hw wrote: > ... > > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change > > the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though. > > Maybe someone knows where that is? > > in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch > around keyboards and common keys being swapped. Does that work with wayland? With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~. There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind atm. Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German keyboard? It's insane. > i don't use them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has > something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long > time. Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly. I'd like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too buggy. When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all. The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with tiling WMs. I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do floating windows just as well, and they don't do that. I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ... Maybe give Gnome another try. It does have its advantages, and it can't hurt to check it out. The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other things) a great deal. So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get 122 keys. Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 21:06 +0100, hw wrote: > And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean? "Strg" is short for "Steuerung", just the literal translation of "control". /ralph
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon 05 Feb 2024 at 21:06:30 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > > hw writes: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > > > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. > > > > > > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, > > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes > > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable > > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard > > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ > > > > localization experience. > > > > > > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. > > > > > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- > > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on > > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be > > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a > > > German layout. > > > > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and > > regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German > > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the > > default shortcut of 'Super + space'. > > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? > > We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't > change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German > layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be > able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and > layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for > the keyboard to be usable. > > And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for > example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an > US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you > have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like > 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed > to mean? Control. > So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there > no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there > should be? > > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. > > It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between > switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But > the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. > > [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet. "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in four major ways: The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched. In English, the letter "y" is very common and the letter "z" is relatively rare, whereas in German the letter "z" is very common and the letter "y" is very uncommon.[1] The German layout places "z" in a position where it can be struck by the index finger, rather than by the weaker little finger. Part of the keyboard is adapted to include umlauted vowels (ä, ö, ü) and the sharp s (ß). (Some newer types of German keyboards offer the fixed assignment Alt+++H → ẞ for its capitalized version.) Some of special key inscriptions are changed to a graphical symbol (e.g. ⇪ Caps Lock is an upward arrow, ← Backspace a leftward arrow). Most of the other abbreviations are replaced by German abbreviations (thus e.g. "Ctrl" is translated to its German equivalent "Strg", for Steuerung). "Esc" remains as
How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote: > hw writes: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > > > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. > > > > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ > > > localization experience. > > > > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. > > > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a > > German layout. > > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and > regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the > default shortcut of 'Super + space'. Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout? We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't change them. If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be able to change the layout. Some characters on a German keyboard (and layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for the keyboard to be usable. And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for example, like telnet used to tell you. It's no problem at all with an US keyboard without any modification. With a German keyboard, you have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ... It took me like 30 years or so before I managed. And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean? So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland? Why is there no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there should be? Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one of those. It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently. But the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing. [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote: > hw wrote: > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote: > ... > > > if they made them with a metal base mine would probably > > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for > > > me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon > > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic > > > tabs break off. > > > > > > otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing... > > > > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing > > that it's too wobbly for you? > > it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you > use it in a non-conventional manner. i do not use them on a > flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying > here on my comfy perch Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy compared to other keyboards. They're not inflexible, though, so using like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break. That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make it feel cold in your lap. > [...] > i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims > of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve > issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning > connections and didn't get any satisfaction. the key problem > was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty, > but when i brought it up i got static and resistance. three > strikes and i'm done with them. I'm sorry to hear that. It seems like they cut back on the models and options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service. I can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay, and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically new. The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I were to order directly from them :( > i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through > their website and history to follow it for a few hours but > the overall price is just too much ($300-500). Oh! I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer different models! I didn't like the layout of the Model F they planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a keyboard the layout of which I don't want. I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one --- but the shipping will probably forbid it. I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the 122 key version. It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller, especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can be difficult to type on it. The Cherry G80, for example, has that problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal size wrists. > $80 for what i have now was acceptable. Which one is that? It must be an unusually sturdy one. Or did you put a metal plate under it? > [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 2/4/24 9:56 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote: If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the key caps . . . can be flipped physically. Unicomp can and will make custom keycaps. -- JHHL
Re: what keyboard do you use?
I also wouldn't mind one bit if somebody came up with a computer keyboard that exactly duplicates the key arrangement and feel of a Linotype keyboard. Not for practical daily use, mind you (I'll stick with my Unicomps); rather, as a practice instrument for those who occasionally run Linotype and Intertype machines, and for interpretive exhibits in graphic arts museums (given that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International Printing Museum, I'd find both useful). "etaoin shrdlu" -- JHHL
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote: I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. which keyboard do you like and why? Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling spring technology. If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards. -- JHHL
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote: I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. which keyboard do you like and why? Logitech K270 full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok. Not great but OK. I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than nothing but too thick for regular use. And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick, the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740) Thanks Lee
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw writes: > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: >> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): >> > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. >> >> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, >> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes >> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable >> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard >> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ >> localization experience. > > We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a > German layout. Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and regularly switch between US and German layouts. I just added the German layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the default shortcut of 'Super + space'. > It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble > at all with, and it really pisses me off. > > All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this > problem. Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we > need to. -- This signature is currently under constuction.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw wrote: > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote: ... >> if they made them with a metal base mine would probably >> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for >> me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon >> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic >> tabs break off. >> >> otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing... > > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing > that it's too wobbly for you? it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you use it in a non-conventional manner. i do not use them on a flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying here on my comfy perch (i find sitting uncomfortable and eventually painful so i don't do it any more - instead i sprawl out and have some pillows propping me up a little bit). i didn't really figure this out until it was too late for the second keyboard (a replacement for the first which flaked out right after the warranty period was up). after i got the 2nd keyboard i took the first one apart hoping i could fix it but there were broken plastic tabs and then the pressure ribbon connection so i just left it aside for parts for the new one. the new one also started having issues within about a year and a half. the first keyboard may have been damaged in shipping based upon the broken plastic tabs inside, but i can't say for sure all i know is that it is not built sturdy enough for my use. if i knew that flexing was bad i could have come up with a board or piece of metal to put underneath it to begin with. this is why i'm mentioning it because there may be someone else who sees this topic/thread who's doing something like i am and i don't want them to be out of a keyboard that other- wise may last quite a long time. if i can find a way to get keyboards functional again with- out costing so much (the pressure ribbon connection just is not seeming reliable enough) i'd love to have them working again. youtube vids are not really covering how to do this sort of repair (making that connection reliable again). i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning connections and didn't get any satisfaction. the key problem was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty, but when i brought it up i got static and resistance. three strikes and i'm done with them. i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through their website and history to follow it for a few hours but the overall price is just too much ($300-500). $80 for what i have now was acceptable. [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ songbird
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw wrote: ... > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change > the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though. > Maybe someone knows where that is? in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch around keyboards and common keys being swapped. i don't use them now, but did in the past. likely GNOME has something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long time. songbird
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Henrik Morsing wrote: > Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will > suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it. > > And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of > the right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys. > > So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one > repaired/replaced should it break. You might want to buy a spare as soon as you see one and wrap it up against dust and mechanical accidents. -dsr-
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ > localization experience. We are stuck with it :( Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better. With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed. With wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout --- which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a German layout. It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble at all with, and it really pisses me off. All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this problem. Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we need to.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote: I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok. Not great but OK. I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than nothing but too thick for regular use. And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick, the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740) Happy Hacking lite for the last 20+ years, absolutely nothing else will suffice. And I work faster than any colleague I've ever met because of it. And it has to be that exact version (they don't make it anymore) because of the right-side Fn key and the separate arrow keys. So it will be a task over the next 50 years getting my current one repaired/replaced should it break. Regards, Henrik Morsing
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 11:36 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > [...] > > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > > > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > > > adapter so I gave up on them. > > > > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has > > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research > > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your > > keyboards. > > As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled > to open the overview. My old Model Ms lack that key. > > > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. > > I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the > keyboard can be configured to swap them back. Otherwise, I would prefer > the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back > to the Space bar. I don't find any documentation on their Web site > about that capability. Contact them, maybe you can get a layout you want --- or check out the 122 key version closeley. > I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu > key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media > control keys on several of the function keys. It's quite handy to raise > or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen. > > > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different > > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything > > better than these buckling spring ones. > > No question. The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a > document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying. I'm not sure what you mean. I don't have these stupid extra keys nobody wants or needs they put into the row with the space bar --- I guess you mean those? Those get in the way all the time and I hate them. On the 122 key version, they are at the bottom of the small block of keys an the left where they are not in the way. You can pull all the keycaps and swap them around if you like. If you're still using Xorg, you should be able to reconfigure the key bindings. I couldn't find out how to do that with wayland :( Without being able to modify the key bindings, I'm stuck with an US layout, and keyboards with a physical US layout are almost impossible to get here. It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change the key bindings. The layout must be defined somewhere, though. Maybe someone knows where that is?
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote: > hw wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > [...] > > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > > > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > > > adapter so I gave up on them. > > > > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has > > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research > > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your > > keyboards. > > > > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. > > > > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different > > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything > > better than these buckling spring ones. > > if they made them with a metal base mine would probably > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for > me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic > tabs break off. > > otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing... IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago. What are you doing that it's too wobbly for you?
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Lee writes: > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? I've had a fnatic ministreak for a few years. Why? - RGB backlight, I set it to a pleasant green. - remappable keys, remappings stored in the keyboard so it works the same everywhere. Two layouts but I only need one. - mechanical keys but quiet ones (Cherry MX Red Silent). - tenkeyless, so without the numeric pad I don't need. - Some media keys, I really only use volume up and down. Only improvement I'd like is macros that you could copy-paste in and adjust their speed. This has macros but you have to type them in which isn't that helpful. My use case is getting passwords into stupid devices and apps, thankfully it's not that common but there's always that one thing on some gizmo that insists you have to type in the password. In fact, my TV has at least two. Before this I had a Happy Hacking keyboard lite for about 20 years. It was and is great, just a little short on keys and lacks the other features mentioned above too.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way, surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/ localization experience. If you're happy with your current keyboard, great. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: what keyboard do you use?
* On 2024 04 Feb 11:57 -0600, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): > >> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. > > > > I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the > > keyboard can be configured to swap them back. > > The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should > be purely a software configuration issue. > > If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the > key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for > the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus > can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap > trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes. xmodmap trickery? I am running GNOME on Wayland. Maybe this combination has a way to remap keys but that's not something I've been inclined to do. The daskeyboard suits me fine and I plan to just stick with it. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 4 Feb 2024 11:36 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann): >> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. > > I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the > keyboard can be configured to swap them back. The keyboard doesn't care what's printed on the key caps; that should be purely a software configuration issue. If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the key caps are of identical size for the two keys you have in mind for the particular keyboard configuration you're interested in, and thus can be flipped physically. Past that I expect it involves some Xmodmap trickery (or maybe treachery) to flip the mapping of the scan codes. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw wrote: > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> [...] >> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in >> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB >> adapter so I gave up on them. > > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your > keyboards. > > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. > > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything > better than these buckling spring ones. if they made them with a metal base mine would probably still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for me. i have two dead ones. :( the pressure fitted ribbon cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic tabs break off. otherwise the feel is good. very loud when i'm writing... songbird
Re: what keyboard do you use?
* On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote: > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > [...] > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > > adapter so I gave up on them. > > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your > keyboards. As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled to open the overview. My old Model Ms lack that key. > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the keyboard can be configured to swap them back. Otherwise, I would prefer the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back to the Space bar. I don't find any documentation on their Web site about that capability. I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media control keys on several of the function keys. It's quite handy to raise or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen. > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything > better than these buckling spring ones. No question. The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: what keyboard do you use?
hw writes: > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> [...] >> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in >> the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB >> adapter so I gave up on them. > > They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has > something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your > keyboards. > Yes, I am using an IBM keyboard right now via usb into a laptop, with this adapter: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FLD3T8T
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote: > [...] > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? It comes down to your personal preference and on how much you're willing to pay for a good keybard. I'm using [1]. I'm using it because I'm finding these buckling spring keyboards the best variant to type on. I've never found anything better in the last 40 years. They also have the advantage that they have a decent size not only for the keys and their spacing, but also for the housing which is designed so you can put stuff like pencils on it. The ones from IBM are so old that they're usually somewhat worn out. They also have become difficult to get and expensive. Unless you can find a new old stock and are willing to pay for it, you're better off getting one from Unicomp. I even got a new Model M a couple years ago for a steal, and I still have it. I like the Unicomp better because of the extra keys without which I wouldn't know what to do, and it feels a little better to type on than the Model M. As an alternative, you could look for a Cherry G80. Apparently they don't make them anymore (And I wouldn't buy anything of what they show on their web site now.). It's a pity since they were acceptable keyboards if you like their switches and if you could get one for a decent price. They were built cheaply and somewhat wobbly, and I don't like that cheapness at all, but the money was in the switches. When you have one have on your desk for typing it's fine. The switches are good (though I don't particularly like them, but that's personal preference) and not in any way cheap or wobbly. I would like Outemu switches way better than the Cherry ones if the Outemu ones weren't so wobbly. They give me nicer feedback while the Cherry switches feel like nothing (perhaps that's intentional), and I'm finding their way of travel too small while the Outemu switches seem to travel a little further. If you can find a keyboard with Outemus, it might be worth a try. Stay away from these so-called 'gaming keyboards'. Everything that's labled 'gaming' is usually either incompatible, otherwise bad, or overpriced, or all of that at the same time. So if you find a 'gaming keyboard' at least make sure it's compatible before buying. [1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD_Code=UB40B5A
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > [...] > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > adapter so I gave up on them. They might work with a so-called active adapter. IIRC it has something to do with the adpater suppling power. With some research and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your keyboards. Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB. I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything better than these buckling spring ones. [1]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Sat, 3 Feb 2024, Russell L. Harris wrote: On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote: >which keyboard do you like and why? ... Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch. Buy Cherry. RLH I bought a Cherry MX 3000 USB. In use permanently in a very dusty environment next to a wood stove. No problems. Roger
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Sat, Feb 03, 2024 at 09:10:49AM -0500, Lee wrote: On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:57???PM Russell L. Harris wrote: On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote: >which keyboard do you like and why? CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 (Purchased several years ago; in daily use since.) Excellent mechanical quality of the keyswitch. Keyswitch plungers which start sticking (high resistance upon depression) is the biggest problem I have found. The next-greatest problem is intermittent contact of key switch contacts. Both problems are maddening for the touch typist. OK - good to know. I am a touch typist, so I guess I'm giving that one a pass. I am saying that these are the biggest problems I have found with keyboards in general, and that the CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 does not have these problems. If you are a touch typist, focus upon the quality of the keyswitch. Cherry makes/uses a good keyswitch. Buy Cherry. RLH
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 10:51 PM Ralph Aichinger wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote: > > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > > which keyboard do you like and why? > > I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current > favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they > are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model > name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die > prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some > time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply > for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take > away much more from a keyboard: > > https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab That looks nice for a tablet or something that you'll be carrying around. > And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind > of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just > wonderful. Logitech seems to be quitting the corded keyboard business :( I go to their keyboard selection site, select full sized with numpad and corded and only two keyboards show up - the one I pulled out of the closet that I think is too tall and a K-845. I don't have a whole lot of luck with batteries or wireless, so a cord is a must for me. > Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the > price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky > and heavy. > > I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began > to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only > thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the > desk, which I do a lot. > > Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very > personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently. As I'm seeing :) Thanks Lee
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 3 Feb 2024 08:34 +0100, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco Moock): >> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. >> which keyboard do you like and why? > > IBM Model M. > They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB. I was going to suggest that too, but OP in Feb 3 14:31 UTC dismissed daskeyboard because loud isn't an option, so I guess that makes a Model M an even worse choice. Probably can't beat it for durability, though. Whichever keyboard you go for, I do recommend to make sure that either it's hermetically sealed (unlikely...) or that the keys are easily removable and replaceable for cleaning. Because no matter how clean you try to keep it, grime eventually does get in and start interfering with the mechanism. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Dan Ritter wrote on 03/02/2024 13:16: As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard. Logitech now has, with and w/o ten key block: search for "Logitech MX Mechanical". They are wireless with USB adapter and have a configurable mono-color key light. I myself use the MX Mechanical Mini. Can be configured from Linux with solaar. Regards, Jörg.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 9:09 PM Nate Bargmann wrote: > > * On 2024 02 Feb 19:26 -0600, Lee wrote: > > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( > > > > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert > > about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't > > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. > > > > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > > which keyboard do you like and why? > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > adapter so I gave up on them. The Lenovo KU-0225 is a good keyboard > with the "standard" extra keys that are useful in some desktops. It is > full size and quiet. > > My main keyboard is a daskeyboard I bought several years ago with the > Cherry key switches It is thick so you might not like it and it is > loud. It has the same number of keys as the Lenovo, 104, I think. This > one was not cheap while the Lenovo was considerably less expensive. Full size and quiet are good qualities :) Tall not so much.. the Logitech that I pulled out of the closet and think is too high is less than 1 inch high. The Lenovo is listed as 1.34 inches, so that's probably not for me. Thick and loud is a no, so I'll pass on the daskeyboard. Thanks Lee
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 8:57 PM Russell L. Harris wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 02, 2024 at 08:25:09PM -0500, Lee wrote: > >which keyboard do you like and why? > > CHERRY MX BOARD 3.0 (Purchased several years ago; in daily use since.) > Excellent mechanical quality of the keyswitch. Keyswitch plungers > which start sticking (high resistance upon depression) is the biggest > problem I have found. The next-greatest problem is intermittent > contact of key switch contacts. Both problems are maddening for the > touch typist. OK - good to know. I am a touch typist, so I guess I'm giving that one a pass. Thanks Lee
Re: what keyboard do you use?
I have two: a Kinesis Advantage 2 and a Corsair gaming mechanical keyboard, both USB connected. I use the latter almost exclusively and love it: the feel of the mechanical keys, the sound of those keys, and the keyboard lighting. I seldom use the Kinesis: just could not get used to it. -- Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 30.0.50 2023-09-14) on Debian 12.2
Re: what keyboard do you use?
jeremy ardley wrote: > Lee wrote: > > > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( > > I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get positive > feedback on key strokes. > > For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting > > Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives a > loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke. > > Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the tactile > feedback. > > I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have struck > a key. > > As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last a > year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.? > > You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, though > ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green or such and > perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you strike it. As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard. Brands which have proven reliable to me: Keychron Ducky CoolerMaster's MasterKeys series -dsr-
Re: what keyboard do you use?
jeremy ardley wrote: ... > You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, > though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green > or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you > strike it. you can change the light show by pressing various key combinations or you can use software to do it for you when the machine boots. i decided to just use the key presses and avoid having yet more packages installed. the light show i prefer for most typing is the one which lights up the key just a little when it is pressed. so it is not too bright as to be distracting but it does provide some feedback. you can adjust how bright you want it to be in five increments. i leave it at one. i rarely need to see all of the keys at one time. when getting going for the day i have an id and password so that is when i want all the keys visible - after that it rarely matters, but it is easy enough to change it back and forth. if you want to have some blinkin' lights you can put on some nice effects when you press keys, at night it can look like a Christmas tree. :) just to show someone. i find it too distracting for normal operation. songbird
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:25:09 -0500 schrieb Lee : > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? IBM Model M. They are still made by the company Unicomp, with PS/2, DIN or USB.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Am Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:09:09 -0600 schrieb Nate Bargmann : > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in > the '90s. Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB > adapter so I gave up on them. They need more power that normal keyboards, so not every converter works. I have a mainboard from 2019 wit PS/2 and the model M works fine.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Lee wrote: I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get positive feedback on key strokes. For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives a loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke. Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the tactile feedback. I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have struck a key. As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last a year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.? You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you strike it.
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote: I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. which keyboard do you like and why? I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok. Not great but OK. I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than nothing but too thick for regular use. And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick, the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740) Thanks Lee The IBM Model M is the standard to which all other computer keyboards are compared. The buckling spring design was created to provide a tactile experience comparable to an IBM Seletric typewriter, to support professional typists in an office environment. I used and loved the Model M back in the day, but the noise gets tiresome and any persons not protected by a soundproof wall will hate you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard Unicomp makes modernized variants: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD I believe I have read postings by people who installed O-rings on their Model M's to reduce the noise. Another reader mentioned Cherry. You can get complete keyboards from Cherry and you can get keyboards from other manufacturers with Cherry MX mechanical switches. Make sure you understand the various colors and your typing needs/ preferences: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/ I have been using a Keyed Up Labs ES-87 for the past several years. I am a pounder and have worn out or broken many keyboards, but the KUL-87 and its Cherry MX Clear switches have withstood me. The noise level is tolerable when typing at full speed, but you can slow down and type half-stroke when you want minimal noise: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/6625/keyed-up-labs-kul-es-87-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard-review/index.html The bottom of the barrel are keyboards with rubber dome switches. If you do any serious typing, you and your fingers will not be happy. I use leftover dome switch keyboards on headless servers to prevent missing keyboard errors and to perform minimal sysadmin chores (entering encryption passphrases during boot, logging in as root, restarting, powering off, etc.). I have noted that my older PS/2 keyboards and/or mice are not recognized by the motherboard firmware Setup utility on my newer Dell workstations and/or servers with PS/2 ports. And, PS/2 keyboards and mice are not hot-pluggable. So, unless you have some specific PS/2 need (gamer with large N-key rollover?), I suggest USB. David
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Lee wrote: > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( ... a Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard. my previous keyboard was starting to miss key presses and duplicating others. since i also needed a new mouse it was a day to get a refresh. paid about $80 for it. works fine, did not install any software to mess with the settings i just use the manual key presses to set it after booting (i don't want lights flashing or moving when i'm typing and i'm ok with not seeing the keys most of the time so i turn the lights way down). it is a little stiff and very quiet compared to what i'm used to but it's working fine. since they keys are partially clear to let light through i'm not worried about wearing the keycaps off. if i get 3 years out of it i'll be happy. i seem to go from 1-3 years most of the time before something breaks. it is not light, it is not thin. i perch it on my lap as i type, it has to be flat and kept flet by some- thing better than plastic to not mess up the stuff inside (based upon previous keyboards that failed due to plastic flexing too much over time). so we'll see how this one works out longer term. songbird
Re: what keyboard do you use?
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? My favorites are the old Thinkpad USB UltraNav travel keyboards (http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/31P9490.jpg). They even come with a 2-port USB hub so you can connect a mouse directly to them (and/or a security key, ... tho you can't go crazy because it has very low power limits (and it's USB-1 only): no flash drive, for instance). But they're becoming hard to find. I also have one of those cheap 78-key compact keyboards and, beside the lack of "page up"/"page down" keys (and of course the lack of a trackpoint), I really like it. Mine is a "no brand" model, but it's fairly similar to the JLab Go wireless keyboard (https://www.jlab.com/products/jlab-go-keyboard?variant=39457511407688), except with a cable so I don't need to worry about batteries or bluetooth connection. Stefan
Re: what keyboard do you use?
Lee writes: > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :( > > ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert > about 'Keyboard not found.' on power up. The keyboard also doesn't > work in another machine so it's really & truly dead. > > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? > > I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok. > Not great but OK. > I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than > nothing but too thick for regular use. > And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick, > the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of > the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740) A Logitech ergonomic keyboard that mimics the Microsoft Natural but, sadly, has been out of production for many years. I don't know what I'll do when it eventually dies, but I expect it'll be expensive...
Re: what keyboard do you use?
On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote: > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so .. > which keyboard do you like and why? I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take away much more from a keyboard: https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just wonderful. Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky and heavy. I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the desk, which I do a lot. Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently. /ralph
