Re: [DUG] FW: Web development
Useful browser share graphs published by arstechnica today afaik:-- Microsoft and Mozilla's continuing Chrome conundrum http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/06/may-browser-market-share-microsoft-and-mozillas-continuing-chrome-conundrum.ars Paul On 7 June 2011 14:00, Jolyon Smith jsm...@deltics.co.nz wrote: I took those observations to mean not that the intranets themselves rely on IE6 but that they are using web apps that don't behave properly in the new browsers. Or perhaps more accurately that they behave properly in the new browsers where proper is defined by the W3C, whereas proper used to be defined by the specification of the web app itself and the behaviour elicited in the browser by the HTML/CSS/JavaScript. Once upon a time, that old software for which there is no excuse to be using it used to be the cutting edge that people scoffed at you if you /weren't/ using it and were using what was *then* considered the old software. And I think you missed the point when observing that new browsers are free. The problem isn't the cost of upgrading the browsers. The problem is that once you have upgraded all your clients to the new browser, your *apps* stop working, so you have to upgrade those apps and the chances are that will incur direct and indirect costs not to mention disruption and downtime to some extent. Even for the browser upgrades, I suspect there is still a cost because not all *users* are competent to upgrade themselves - we who live and breath IT tend to forget that many people are confused by (and can royally screw up) what we take for granted. Plus, in this day and age, it's pretty certain that users won't be able to just upgrade their browser software without central IT/admin support, something that those concerned with security questions would surely characterise as a good thing. After all, we can't have everyone just able to willy nilly install/upgrade software on their workstations... Those who live by the sword etc... ;) -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of John Bird Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011 13:43 To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] FW: Web development I am mystified why any government organisations would be stuck on IE6 given its the best door for any hacker wanting to intrude into a system. Its how Google was penetrated 18 months ago - hackers found workstations that had to use IE6 for historical reasons (reasons that were not all that good) I was astonished about 3 years ago to see an unnamed government department workstation using a pre-release version of Firefox, ie it was so old it was basically the old Netscape - with diagonal arrow buttons and all, probably something like v0.5 and from probably 2003. Surely any government IT department should not be relying on such old unpatched software if even to cover their own backsides when the inevitable problem occurs - its not a budget issue if free secure browsers abound. If they have to use IE6 for intranets, do they prevent IE6 from accessing the outside internet? And why can they not use later browsers for Intranets? John ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development)
Hi All, After going through all the thread related to webdevelopment. I decided to give a try on ROR. So far it looks ok to me. Just wondering if anyone has used it to develop commercial application. I heard many saying ROR is fast and effective. I have no idea of PHP though Just wondering. Kind regards Vik On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Gary T. Benner g...@benner.co.nz wrote: *[Reply]* HI All, Aptana has it's own development $tudio, but also has free plugins for Eclipse. Both allow debugging for PHP. PHPclipse also works fine, but you need to find html, css and js plugins. kr Gary A*t 14:30 on 7/06/2011 you wrote * Hi Robert I have been following the thread with much interest. We use PHP becuase it is... 1) platform independent 2) widely supported by ISPs and support 3) Simple, fast and effective 4) Used by other products we support Up until recently we have been making minor modifications to existing products OR simple internal systems. We have just use Notepad++ to do this work. Now we are about to embark on a major new system (a web service, not a web site). What dev platform would people recommend. No one has mentioned Eclipse, Aptana Studio which sounds good but seems aimed at Ruby On Rails more than PHP. Does anyone know if it does code completion and debugging of PHP (it says it does for RoR). +1 for Eclipse It provides code completion, jump to implementation (ctrl click) and debugging (breakpoints, watches, local variables, call stack etc) in the IDE. With plugins for CSS, Javascript, HTML, XML UML, as well what could be better? Todd Still love Delphi but PHP seems to be the way to go for web dev. Cheers Rob ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- bPassion/b is no substitute for breason/b ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP Information Technology Certified Professional Onlearn Limited http://www.onlearn.co.nz - Online Learning Hosting Support, Training Content Development 123 Internet Limited http://www.123.net.nz - Managed Web Hosting, Virtualisation, High Availability Systems Cluster Technologies Semantic Limited http://www.semantic.co.nz - Software Development Systems Design, Online Education, e-Commerce Disaster Warning Systems Limited http://www.diwa.co.nz - Public Emergency Warning and Communication Systems *Mob:* 021 966 992 *DDI:* +64 7 543 1206 *Email:* g...@benner.co.nz *Skype:* garybenner Ref#: 41006 ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- vikas ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development)
CLI php is very powerful and very useful too. There are even times to shell out to it from Delphi or from other environments. There are existing php libraries (e.g. pdf handling etc etc etc ) that are just 'ready to go', where setting up in Delphi would be reinventing the wheel all too much. I work with TeXworks an OpenSource LaTeX editor, and they have provided an EMCA script language called QtScript (JavaScript for most intents and purposes), and using a system call you can get php to do almost any thing you need. One thing I do is get it to handle bibliographies for me, inserting the needed codes from an MySql table. You can provide JavaScript to your Delphi applications (as with php as a Delphi app scripting language using http://users.telenet.be/ws36637/php4delphi.html) as well - just a few examples (E also have some newer stuff on this as well I think) ... Commercial: http://eco148-88394.innterhost.net/paxscript/ OpenSource: Javascript in Desktop Applications http://www.codebot.org/delphi/?doc=9573 (And see http://code.google.com/p/delphichromiumembedded/ for use of the V8 engine), - then expose needed additional objects and functions and a generic system call, and the users can script away their own extensions virtually. (I don't mean in the TWebBrowser component.) This project http://phpjs.org/ has even ported much of the appropriatly useful php routines into JavaScript and that can be used as an evaluated library in a Delphi application scripting process. (Most people out there are not going to learn a Pascal Script -- so perhaps leverage the tremendous background people now have in Js and php for Delphi application scripting) Aptana Studio is great. They did drop php in 2.0 I think, for a while - huge outcry - and it is fully back in 3.0 - plus plugins as well. Aptana web studio is for JavaScript [php] what Delphi is for real code. -- from http://delphimax.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/delphi-for-javascript-a-viable-idea-or-wishful-thinking/ Paul On 7 June 2011 15:00, Gary T. Benner g...@benner.co.nz wrote: [Reply] HI All, Aptana has it's own development $tudio, but also has free plugins for Eclipse. Both allow debugging for PHP. PHPclipse also works fine, but you need to find html, css and js plugins. kr Gary At 14:30 on 7/06/2011 you wrote Hi Robert I have been following the thread with much interest. We use PHP becuase it is... 1) platform independent 2) widely supported by ISPs and support 3) Simple, fast and effective 4) Used by other products we support Up until recently we have been making minor modifications to existing products OR simple internal systems. We have just use Notepad++ to do this work. Now we are about to embark on a major new system (a web service, not a web site). What dev platform would people recommend. No one has mentioned Eclipse, Aptana Studio which sounds good but seems aimed at Ruby On Rails more than PHP. Does anyone know if it does code completion and debugging of PHP (it says it does for RoR). +1 for Eclipse It provides code completion, jump to implementation (ctrl click) and debugging (breakpoints, watches, local variables, call stack etc) in the IDE. With plugins for CSS, Javascript, HTML, XML UML, as well what could be better? Todd Still love Delphi but PHP seems to be the way to go for web dev. Cheers Rob ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- bPassion/b is no substitute for breason/b ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP Information Technology Certified Professional Onlearn Limited - Online Learning Hosting Support, Training Content Development 123 Internet Limited - Managed Web Hosting, Virtualisation, High Availability Systems Cluster Technologies Semantic Limited - Software Development Systems Design, Online Education, e-Commerce Disaster Warning Systems Limited - Public Emergency Warning and Communication Systems Mob: 021 966 992 DDI: +64 7 543 1206 Email: g...@benner.co.nz Skype: garybenner Ref#: 41006 ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send
Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development)
The whole of both our public admin sites are done ROR, made the change between 4 5 years ago. Tim Tim Perry Area Franchisee Christchurch South/Mid Canterbury/South Canterbury Nelson/Marlborough/West Coast M: +64 21 300 188 T: +64 3 547 4866 E: tim.pe...@open2view.com W: http://www.nz.open2view.com/ Open2view - New Zealand's Real Estate Website Open2view.com The Real Estate Website cid:9677ABD9-E816-4F7D-81C0-998EC6585C99@local From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Vik Vasudev Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011 6:40 p.m. To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development) Hi All, After going through all the thread related to webdevelopment. I decided to give a try on ROR. So far it looks ok to me. Just wondering if anyone has used it to develop commercial application. I heard many saying ROR is fast and effective. I have no idea of PHP though Just wondering. Kind regards Vik On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Gary T. Benner g...@benner.co.nz wrote: [Reply] HI All, Aptana has it's own development $tudio, but also has free plugins for Eclipse. Both allow debugging for PHP. PHPclipse also works fine, but you need to find html, css and js plugins. kr Gary At 14:30 on 7/06/2011 you wrote Hi Robert I have been following the thread with much interest. We use PHP becuase it is... 1) platform independent 2) widely supported by ISPs and support 3) Simple, fast and effective 4) Used by other products we support Up until recently we have been making minor modifications to existing products OR simple internal systems. We have just use Notepad++ to do this work. Now we are about to embark on a major new system (a web service, not a web site). What dev platform would people recommend. No one has mentioned Eclipse, Aptana Studio which sounds good but seems aimed at Ruby On Rails more than PHP. Does anyone know if it does code completion and debugging of PHP (it says it does for RoR). +1 for Eclipse It provides code completion, jump to implementation (ctrl click) and debugging (breakpoints, watches, local variables, call stack etc) in the IDE. With plugins for CSS, Javascript, HTML, XML UML, as well what could be better? Todd Still love Delphi but PHP seems to be the way to go for web dev. Cheers Rob ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- bPassion/b is no substitute for breason/b ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP Information Technology Certified Professional http://www.onlearn.co.nz Onlearn Limited - Online Learning Hosting Support, Training Content Development http://www.123.net.nz 123 Internet Limited - Managed Web Hosting, Virtualisation, High Availability Systems Cluster Technologies http://www.semantic.co.nz Semantic Limited - Software Development Systems Design, Online Education, e-Commerce http://www.diwa.co.nz Disaster Warning Systems Limited - Public Emergency Warning and Communication Systems Mob: 021 966 992 DDI: +64 7 543 1206 tel:%2B64%207%20543%201206 Email: g...@benner.co.nz Skype: garybenner Ref#: 41006 ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- vikas image001.jpg___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development)
Yea, I have been involved in 2 large development programs (as a manager, not a programmer) in RoR, both quite fast and successful. Works very well in a SCRUM development environment. One person mentioned that RoR is hobbled in that there seems only one way to do things - that is the very idea behind RoR. By having only one way to do things, development is consistent and speedy. A lot of assumptions can then be made by RoR which means it can write your application in a lot of places. As with all the comments, you still need JavaScript, HTML, CSS and Ajax to deliver apps, but on the whole both large development projects were very successfully delivered. Steve Peacocke On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Vik Vasudev vikas.im...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, After going through all the thread related to webdevelopment. I decided to give a try on ROR. So far it looks ok to me. Just wondering if anyone has used it to develop commercial application. I heard many saying ROR is fast and effective. I have no idea of PHP though Just wondering. ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] FW: Web development
Interesting. My AWStats for May shows IE visitors at 38.2%, Firefox at 33.1%, Chrome 18.2%. That's with 179680 hits. IE has been steadily decreasing. In April it was 40%, March 41%. Ross. -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Paul A Norman Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011 6:12 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] FW: Web development Useful browser share graphs published by arstechnica today afaik:-- Microsoft and Mozilla's continuing Chrome conundrum http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/06/may-browser-market-share-microsoft-a nd-mozillas-continuing-chrome-conundrum.ars Paul On 7 June 2011 14:00, Jolyon Smith jsm...@deltics.co.nz wrote: I took those observations to mean not that the intranets themselves rely on IE6 but that they are using web apps that don't behave properly in the new browsers. Or perhaps more accurately that they behave properly in the new browsers where proper is defined by the W3C, whereas proper used to be defined by the specification of the web app itself and the behaviour elicited in the browser by the HTML/CSS/JavaScript. Once upon a time, that old software for which there is no excuse to be using it used to be the cutting edge that people scoffed at you if you /weren't/ using it and were using what was *then* considered the old software. And I think you missed the point when observing that new browsers are free. The problem isn't the cost of upgrading the browsers. The problem is that once you have upgraded all your clients to the new browser, your *apps* stop working, so you have to upgrade those apps and the chances are that will incur direct and indirect costs not to mention disruption and downtime to some extent. Even for the browser upgrades, I suspect there is still a cost because not all *users* are competent to upgrade themselves - we who live and breath IT tend to forget that many people are confused by (and can royally screw up) what we take for granted. Plus, in this day and age, it's pretty certain that users won't be able to just upgrade their browser software without central IT/admin support, something that those concerned with security questions would surely characterise as a good thing. After all, we can't have everyone just able to willy nilly install/upgrade software on their workstations... Those who live by the sword etc... ;) -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of John Bird Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011 13:43 To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] FW: Web development I am mystified why any government organisations would be stuck on IE6 given its the best door for any hacker wanting to intrude into a system. Its how Google was penetrated 18 months ago - hackers found workstations that had to use IE6 for historical reasons (reasons that were not all that good) I was astonished about 3 years ago to see an unnamed government department workstation using a pre-release version of Firefox, ie it was so old it was basically the old Netscape - with diagonal arrow buttons and all, probably something like v0.5 and from probably 2003. Surely any government IT department should not be relying on such old unpatched software if even to cover their own backsides when the inevitable problem occurs - its not a budget issue if free secure browsers abound. If they have to use IE6 for intranets, do they prevent IE6 from accessing the outside internet? And why can they not use later browsers for Intranets? John ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development)
Commercial: http://eco148-88394.innterhost.net/paxscript/ Interesting to see this one mentioned - the newer version of it is http://www.paxcompiler.com/ by the way and I am a happy user of that script engine in one of my projects (totally non-web related work). The developer of it (a Russian called Alexander Baranovsky) is still looking for work as a software developer in New Zealand, last I've heard - if anyone is interested and looking for some talent with strong mathematical/computational background then let me know and I will forward your email to him. Regards, Stefan -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Paul A Norman Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:44 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] PHP setup (was Web development) CLI php is very powerful and very useful too. There are even times to shell out to it from Delphi or from other environments. There are existing php libraries (e.g. pdf handling etc etc etc ) that are just 'ready to go', where setting up in Delphi would be reinventing the wheel all too much. I work with TeXworks an OpenSource LaTeX editor, and they have provided an EMCA script language called QtScript (JavaScript for most intents and purposes), and using a system call you can get php to do almost any thing you need. One thing I do is get it to handle bibliographies for me, inserting the needed codes from an MySql table. You can provide JavaScript to your Delphi applications (as with php as a Delphi app scripting language using http://users.telenet.be/ws36637/php4delphi.html) as well - just a few examples (E also have some newer stuff on this as well I think) ... Commercial: http://eco148-88394.innterhost.net/paxscript/ OpenSource: Javascript in Desktop Applications http://www.codebot.org/delphi/?doc=9573 (And see http://code.google.com/p/delphichromiumembedded/ for use of the V8 engine), - then expose needed additional objects and functions and a generic system call, and the users can script away their own extensions virtually. (I don't mean in the TWebBrowser component.) This project http://phpjs.org/ has even ported much of the appropriatly useful php routines into JavaScript and that can be used as an evaluated library in a Delphi application scripting process. (Most people out there are not going to learn a Pascal Script -- so perhaps leverage the tremendous background people now have in Js and php for Delphi application scripting) Aptana Studio is great. They did drop php in 2.0 I think, for a while - huge outcry - and it is fully back in 3.0 - plus plugins as well. Aptana web studio is for JavaScript [php] what Delphi is for real code. -- from http://delphimax.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/delphi-for-javascript-a-viable-ide a-or-wishful-thinking/ Paul On 7 June 2011 15:00, Gary T. Benner g...@benner.co.nz wrote: [Reply] HI All, Aptana has it's own development $tudio, but also has free plugins for Eclipse. Both allow debugging for PHP. PHPclipse also works fine, but you need to find html, css and js plugins. kr Gary At 14:30 on 7/06/2011 you wrote Hi Robert I have been following the thread with much interest. We use PHP becuase it is... 1) platform independent 2) widely supported by ISPs and support 3) Simple, fast and effective 4) Used by other products we support Up until recently we have been making minor modifications to existing products OR simple internal systems. We have just use Notepad++ to do this work. Now we are about to embark on a major new system (a web service, not a web site). What dev platform would people recommend. No one has mentioned Eclipse, Aptana Studio which sounds good but seems aimed at Ruby On Rails more than PHP. Does anyone know if it does code completion and debugging of PHP (it says it does for RoR). +1 for Eclipse It provides code completion, jump to implementation (ctrl click) and debugging (breakpoints, watches, local variables, call stack etc) in the IDE. With plugins for CSS, Javascript, HTML, XML UML, as well what could be better? Todd Still love Delphi but PHP seems to be the way to go for web dev. Cheers Rob ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe -- bPassion/b is no substitute for breason/b ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP Information Technology Certified Professional Onlearn Limited - Online Learning Hosting Support, Training Content
Re: [DUG] Web development
FYI, O'reilly have 50% JavaScript books and video this week - also includes some HTML5 http://oreilly.com/store/dd-HALFD.csp Alister Christie Computers for People Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266 http://www.salespartner.co.nz Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/salespartner PO Box 13085 Johnsonville Wellington ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
