RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Mark, Forget the MS scripting engines - they are too much trouble for what they are worth! Firstly, there is no proper debugger, and the languages Whats MS Script Debugger then? I've seen references to it on several web-sites I've been looking at. I won't exactly call the script debugger a proper debugger. I installed it once, but decided it was not worth it, so now it is uninstalled! A debugger is especially important if you are expecting your clients to write the script. (vbscript / javascript) are rather limited. Furthermore, you will need to make everything COM before you can export to the scripting languages. Ouch! Whilst they may be limited, I don't really need MUCH out of the scripts. Plus you can also get perl, and I think tcl for ActiveScript now. If you must use scripts, I would go for the dreammaker tool, as it gives you more than just scripts. It would even let your clients design their own user interfaces! However, it too lacks a proper debugger. One thought. If the scripts are only used for reporting, try using Crystal reports. It can do most of what you can achieve using the basic scripts. - Dennis Chuah, BE (Hons) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Manager, Product Development Contec Data Systems Ltd. [http://www.contecds.com] tel: +64-3-3580060 ext-775 fax: +64-3-3588045 --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Dennis wrote: One thought. If the scripts are only used for reporting, try using Crystal reports. It can do most of what you can achieve using the basic scripts. Ditto for Shazam Report Writer -- http://www.shazamware.com, which has the advantage of being VCL, so built completely into your app if you want. Can also be a standalone EXE working against your DB. cheers, peter Peter Hyde, SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboNote: http://TurboPress.com/tbnote.htm -- small, FREE and very handy * Print-to-Web automation http://TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and hosting specialists Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Dennis Chuah wrote: One thought. If the scripts are only used for reporting, try using Crystal reports. It can do most of what you can achieve using the basic scripts. Nah, they're mainly used for performaing advanced calculations to building a summary table of imported information. For now, I think I might just stick with the existing dll's I already have, as they work, they're just not the most elegant way of handling the problem. --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
If you are trying to plug in user calcs like TotalEnthalpy := MyWayFunction(steam_temp_field,steam_pressure_field); Then there are several expression evaluating components on the DSP that you can plug in a piece of text and have the expression parsed and the result returned. Grant Black Software Developer SmartMove (NZ) Ltd Phone: +64 9 361-0219 extn 719 Fax : +64 9 361-0211 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mark Derricutt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 12:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host Dennis Chuah wrote: One thought. If the scripts are only used for reporting, try using Crystal reports. It can do most of what you can achieve using the basic scripts. Nah, they're mainly used for performaing advanced calculations to building a summary table of imported information. For now, I think I might just stick with the existing dll's I already have, as they work, they're just not the most elegant way of handling the problem. -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Ok, I hate to say this, BUT VB 6 does do this quite nice..it has wizards atc. for doing it..PLEASE DONT FLAME ME FOR SAYING SO.AGH ! Jeremy Coulter -Original Message- From: Mark Derricutt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host Hiya - has anyone here written any applications that use "plugins" and "extensions" to extend the use of their application? Currently I'm using dynamically loaded .dll's to provide a plugin system for my application, only, delphi bloats .dll's quite a bit making each one around 100-150k, which is compleatly overkill when the function being called is only 5-10 lines long (the functions often create a TQuery and connect into a database to perform lookups). Has anyone experimented with using other forms of plugin methods?? I've thought about looking at using a scripting language, such as MS Scripting Host (where can I download that from anyway?) but wasn't sure about how I could use that to link back into my database to perform calculation lookups. Does anyone know how it works?? Can I make certain variables/events/objects in my application available to the MS Scripting engine or what??? Thanks in advance, Mark Derricutt --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Not too good - the demo shows that it works, and it works WELL. Rather impressive, really. I think its www.dreamcompany.com or something similar. Nic. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are a coupe of components around for ActiveX scripting - checkout DSP. You can get the MS stuff from http://www.msdn.com/scripting. There is also the Dream Controls - available from dream.com (?) or DSP. This seems to good to be true as it gives you a full Delphi interpreter and Delphi like environment. Mark Derricutt [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 10/03/99 14:09:40 Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:(bcc: Peter Jones/LogisticsInformation Technology/Christchurch/Foodstuffs) Subject: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host Hiya - has anyone here written any applications that use "plugins" and "extensions" to extend the use of their application? Currently I'm using dynamically loaded .dll's to provide a plugin system for my application, only, delphi bloats .dll's quite a bit making each one around 100-150k, which is compleatly overkill when the function being called is only 5-10 lines long (the functions often create a TQuery and connect into a database to perform lookups). Has anyone experimented with using other forms of plugin methods?? I've thought about looking at using a scripting language, such as MS Scripting Host (where can I download that from anyway?) but wasn't sure about how I could use that to link back into my database to perform calculation lookups. Does anyone know how it works?? Can I make certain variables/events/objects in my application available to the MS Scripting engine or what??? Thanks in advance, Mark Derricutt --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Mark, Currently I'm using dynamically loaded .dll's to provide a plugin system for my application, only, delphi bloats .dll's quite a bit making each one around 100-150k, which is compleatly overkill when the function being called is only 5-10 lines long (the functions often create a TQuery and connect into a database to perform lookups). Have you considered using packages? If you build your app and dlls with packages, you will find a big reduction in size. You can also use packages instead of dll. (Well, a package is really just a dll with info about units, etc). Packages can be dynamically loaded using the LoadPackage procedure. Has anyone experimented with using other forms of plugin methods?? I've thought about looking at using a scripting language, such as MS Scripting Host (where can I download that from anyway?) but wasn't sure about how I could use that to link back into my database to perform calculation lookups. Does anyone know how it works?? Can I make certain variables/events/objects in my application available to the MS Scripting engine or what??? Forget the MS scripting engines - they are too much trouble for what they are worth! Firstly, there is no proper debugger, and the languages (vbscript / javascript) are rather limited. Furthermore, you will need to make everything COM before you can export to the scripting languages. Ouch! - Dennis Chuah, BE (Hons) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Manager, Product Development Contec Data Systems Ltd. [http://www.contecds.com] tel: +64-3-3580060 ext-775 fax: +64-3-3588045 --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Currently I'm using dynamically loaded .dll's to provide a plugin system for my application, only, delphi bloats .dll's quite a bit making each one around 100-150k, which is compleatly overkill when the function being called is only 5-10 lines long (the functions often create a TQuery and connect into a database to perform lookups). I've done so at an experimental level and found that this is the ideal candidate for runtime libraries... The experiment involved 1 Application an arbitrary number of plugin report modules (2 tested) an arbitrary number of plugin forms (2 tested) a single backend dll for each application atom (somewhat arbitrary building blocks). Performance was affected as: 1. A very long load up. 2. Larger memory requirements. 3. Poor crash recovery... such that resource release was poor under crash conditions... Interactive performance loss was not hugely significant since processing tended to remain within function blocks with most interblock communication either instructive or data transfer. Has anyone experimented with using other forms of plugin methods?? I've thought about looking at using a scripting language, such as MS Scripting Host (where can I download that from anyway?) but wasn't sure about how I could use that to link back into my database to perform calculation lookups. Does anyone know how it works?? Can I make certain variables/events/objects in my application available to the MS Scripting engine or what??? The scripting will likely have poorer performance balanced with better functionality. Security of scripts may be an issue also. i would be guessing a bunch off callbacks for custom functions (name and parameters) and similar for variables. -- Aaron Scott-Boddendijk Jump Productions (07) 838-3371 Voice (07) 838-3372 Fax --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
It seems a pretty common requirement to have framework/shell applications that can work with various modules - ie an accounting packages that support various optional bits as well as support user customization of reports etc. Its quite suprising then that there seems to be a lack of good tools to handle this process. Personally I think MS Scripting Engine + Com can lead to problems in the long term such as too much code ending up being written in script - imagine in a few years when you get a few thousand lines of perl tying your app together + various versions of COM objects scattered around shudder. If your DLL's work then why not stick with them? - as MS have proven, bloatware is no barrier to success and 150K DLL's is not exactly a worry when your target machines probably have 10Mb+ of wallpaper alone. Also take a look at TCL/TK for scripting - we have experimented with it as you can load a script that constructs the UI on the fly calls DLL's or COM objects to do the work. This means that each client could simply have a (text) script that constructs the application that calls the (Delphi coded) engine. Looks like a powerful concept and there are some good example of the approach in the OpenSource world where people take things like a GNU C++ backend compiler or SQL DB and construct a nice front end using TCL/TK. -Original Message- From: Mark Derricutt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 1999 15:10 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host Hiya - has anyone here written any applications that use "plugins" and "extensions" to extend the use of their application? Currently I'm using dynamically loaded .dll's to provide a plugin system for my application, only, delphi bloats .dll's quite a bit making each one around 100-150k, which is compleatly overkill when the function being called is only 5-10 lines long (the functions often create a TQuery and connect into a database to perform lookups). Has anyone experimented with using other forms of plugin methods?? I've thought about looking at using a scripting language, such as MS Scripting Host (where can I download that from anyway?) but wasn't sure about how I could use that to link back into my database to perform calculation lookups. Does anyone know how it works?? Can I make certain variables/events/objects in my application available to the MS Scripting engine or what??? Thanks in advance, Mark Derricutt -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Peter Jones wrote: There is also the Dream Controls - available from dream.com (?) or DSP. This seems to good to be true as it gives you a full Delphi interpreter and Delphi like environment. Robert Loof and I just had a review of the above published in Developers Review (March issue, I think). The gist is: a) Indeed they DO offer a good Delphi-like scripting language, called Delphin (no exceptions at present), but that is just one part of the overall solution, and you don't have to use it (see below) b) It provides very clever, easy ways to expose your components (and the entire VCL!) to the scripts c) The demo is a truly good way to get a feel for what's good about it, so it's worth paying a visit to http://www.dreamcompany.com d) You're not limited to using its "Delphin" interpreter -- you can hook it up with any Microsoft Scripting Engine back end you wish (VBS, JS, Perl etc), and still get all the other advantages (FWIW, Delphin itself is *not* MSE, so can be bound directly into your EXE if you want, with no extra installation hassles) e) Debugging with MSE back ends is limited, but there are debugging options these days. For Delphin, it's currently non- existent f) There's a whole bunch of other components for IDE design, parsing, syntax-highlighted editing, excellent property editors and so on In other words, well worth a look in. cheers, peter Peter Hyde, SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboNote: http://TurboPress.com/tbnote.htm -- small, FREE and very handy * Print-to-Web automation http://TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and hosting specialists Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Nic Wise wrote: [DLLs] Definatly overkill :) Yup, and a memory hog/bloat, and make it not very customizable for quick fixes/additions :( http://www.microsoft.com/scripting I think - seach on msdn.microsoft.com or install IE4 I've just been looking through the sites on this and also came accross wsh.glazier.co.nz (I remember seeing glazier.co.nz mentioned on here, Ian I think???). Unfortunately I didn't really find anything that gave me pointers in how to link them to my app, I think I delphi orientated article/site could be quite useful. Via OLE objects. Do you get Visual Developer Mag? Feb/Mar 1998 (vol 8, #6) had an article on it - if not, I can PCopy it and drop it in/fax it. Nope, we get jack all magazines here, and I havn't really found a good place to get 'puter mags. If you could PCopy it and fax it to me it would be great (fax - 09-377-9946). I think they publish their code too - www.visual-developer.com /me goes surfing :) There's also a Perl module if you want your clients to be truely unproductive. As yes, being such a language the client will start writing indepth and complex functions just to add to strings together... Perl - brilliant language when used for whats its designed for :) Mark --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is also the Dream Controls - available from dream.com (?) or DSP. This seems to good to be true as it gives you a full Delphi interpreter and Delphi like environment. Mmmm, now I like the sound of this. We're also using Report Builder for our reports, and Digital Metaphors having written what they call "Report Application Programming" which provides a full Object Pascal interpreter for embedding code inside your reports for complex report building on the fly. However they didn't seem to interested in seperating the layers and making RAP available for generic scripting (which kinda sucks)... Hope they change there minds. Mark --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
I've just been looking through the sites on this and also came accross wsh.glazier.co.nz (I remember seeing glazier.co.nz mentioned on here, Ian I think???). Unfortunately I didn't really find anything that gave me pointers in how to link them to my app, I think I delphi orientated article/site could be quite useful. Nah, Ian's site is for Windows Scripting Host, which is, in itself, a good thing(tm) - think, no more .bat files!!! But he's a non-programmer, so the site does not cover things like putting it in your app. Nope, we get jack all magazines here, and I havn't really found a good place to get 'puter mags. If you could PCopy it and fax it to me it would be great (fax - 09-377-9946). I'll do that when I'm in the office tommorow. /me goes surfing :) ... but you do have a net connection - better than most mags! As yes, being such a language the client will start writing indepth and complex functions just to add to strings together... Perl - brilliant language when used for whats its designed for :) and its generally not used for that. N --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Dennis Chuah wrote: Have you considered using packages? If you build your app and dlls with packages, you will find a big reduction in size. You can also use packages instead of dll. (Well, a package is really just a dll with info about If possible, I want to get away from compiled plugins, cause otherwise the client will need Delphi or some other compiler to make the plugins. Forget the MS scripting engines - they are too much trouble for what they are worth! Firstly, there is no proper debugger, and the languages Whats MS Script Debugger then? I've seen references to it on several web-sites I've been looking at. (vbscript / javascript) are rather limited. Furthermore, you will need to make everything COM before you can export to the scripting languages. Ouch! Whilst they may be limited, I don't really need MUCH out of the scripts. Plus you can also get perl, and I think tcl for ActiveScript now. Mark --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: Plugins/MS Scripting Host
Grant Black wrote: imagine in a few years when you get a few thousand lines of perl tying One would hope your 'scripts' are not reaching the thousand lines of code area, if so then its a very complex piece of script, or theres something wrong with the main application :) If your DLL's work then why not stick with them? - as MS have proven, bloatware is no barrier to success and 150K DLL's is not exactly a worry when your target machines probably have 10Mb+ of wallpaper alone. The problem with the DLL's - is that for what they do, having to maintain seperate delphi projects, editing the code, compiling etc. etc. is a pain in the butt for changing the behavior, or adding new behavior to the system. Plus I don't expect the clients to have Delphi, or another development platform that will make it easy for them to add new plugins etc. etc. Also take a look at TCL/TK for scripting - we have experimented with it as you can load a script that constructs the UI on the fly calls DLL's I've often wanted to look into TCL for scripting, not neccesarily using the TK extensions thou. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much information availble for integrated it with Delphi. I know several people writing major applications using TCL/TK as both the front-end, and back-end. The most prominent that come to mind are two IRC clients: Zircon and IraCa. Looks like a powerful concept and there are some good example of the approach in the OpenSource world where people take things like a GNU C++ The problem with scripted systems, if that often they get used too much for things they're not designed for, or not appropriate for. Mark --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
