Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi all,

I don't have enough time, so anybody step in...

Bernhard Dippold schrieb:

[...]

Moved the page to the Design area:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/UI_Elements

and added the Design category.

Please play with the page, add your ideas, categorize and sort them, so
we can discuss the next steps based on some examples.


... replace my example "vertical tabs" with real data - there have been 
several mockups mentioned here on the list containing this element.


... start a new thread pointing everybody to this new wiki page (at the 
moment buried in the deepest area of a thread on much more topics than 
just this one).


... link to the page from different areas in the wiki (whiteboard?, 
design kick-off?, "how to contribute" page - needs to be worked on too)


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Kévin, Phil, all,

Kévin PEIGNOT schrieb:

Hi Bernard

Yes move it somewhere else, out of your own space. I already have an idea
about something to add

Thanks for this good job !

Kévin
Le 7 juil. 2011 23:43, "Phil Jackson"  a écrit :

Hi Bernhard

Let's go with your proposal about moving it out of your user page - we
need to do something quickly before we lose interest from any the
contributors.

Cheers

Phil Jackson


Moved the page to the Design area:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/UI_Elements

and added the Design category.

Please play with the page, add your ideas, categorize and sort them, so 
we can discuss the next steps based on some examples.


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

Hi Bernard

Yes move it somewhere else, out of your own space. I already have an idea
about something to add

Thanks for this good job !

Kévin
Le 7 juil. 2011 23:43, "Phil Jackson"  a écrit :
> Hi Bernhard
>
> Let's go with your proposal about moving it out of your user page - we
> need to do something quickly before we lose interest from any the
> contributors.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Jackso
>
> On 7/8/2011 9:32 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>> Hi Mirek, all
>>
>> Mirek M. schrieb:
>>> Hi Bernhard,
>>>
>>> 2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold
>>>
 [...]

 I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.

 Here is the very first result:
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements

 A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail
 image,
 name and date of upload, last activity, description, other
 implementations,
 advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of
 implementation).

 Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find
 superfluous
 or lacking columns, add your own ideas -
>>>
>>>
>>> I already have a table of some of my ideas on
>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I
>>> add all
>>> the ideas to the table?
>>
>> My idea is to collect all the different elements in one table, leading
>> to collaborative work on the single element instead of commenting a
>> full mockup with a multitude of UI changes.
>>
>> So yes, I'd like to see all of the elements on your page added to the
>> table.
>>
>> We'll have to split the table (quite soon, I hope) in different parts
>> representing different areas of the UI, but similar ideas by several
>> team members could be discussed together and integrated in a final
>> position - leading to a specification and a proposal to the developers.
>>
>>> I'm assuming that would overflow the table,
>>
>> Not really - as the table is sortable, an increasing number of entries
>> could be handled by some hierarchical ordering or any other
>> sophisticated structure.
>>
>>> especially when the "Description" column is so small,
>>
>> This column should only contain a very short description of the
>> feature - the details should stay on your page linked from the entry.
>>
>>> but which features do
>>> I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table?
>>
>> It just my personal idea, so it might be totally wrong. But I want to
>> see all the proposed features listed in the table - until they have
>> been aggregated to our team's specifications and "hack proposals".
>>
>> If there are team members interested in such a more or less structured
>> approach to the task , I'd move the page out of my user space. If not,
>> I just drop it...
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Bernhard
>>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Phil Jackson]

Hi Bernhard

Let's go with your proposal about moving it out of your user page - we 
need to do something quickly before we lose interest from any the 
contributors.


Cheers

Phil Jackso

On 7/8/2011 9:32 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Hi Mirek, all

Mirek M. schrieb:

Hi Bernhard,

2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold


[...]

I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.

Here is the very first result:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements

A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail 
image,
name and date of upload, last activity, description, other 
implementations,

advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of
implementation).

Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find 
superfluous

or lacking columns, add your own ideas -



I already have a table of some of my ideas on
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I 
add all

the ideas to the table?


My idea is to collect all the different elements in one table, leading 
to collaborative work on the single element instead of commenting a 
full mockup with a multitude of UI changes.


So yes, I'd like to see all of the elements on your page added to the 
table.


We'll have to split the table (quite soon, I hope) in different parts 
representing different areas of the UI, but similar ideas by several 
team members could be discussed together and integrated in a final 
position - leading to a specification and a proposal to the developers.



I'm assuming that would overflow the table,


Not really - as the table is sortable, an increasing number of entries 
could be handled by some hierarchical ordering or any other 
sophisticated structure.



especially when the "Description" column is so small,


This column should only contain a very short description of the 
feature - the details should stay on your page linked from the entry.



but which features do
I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table?


It just my personal idea, so it might be totally wrong. But I want to 
see all the proposed features listed in the table - until they have 
been aggregated to our team's specifications and "hack proposals".


If there are team members interested in such a more or less structured 
approach to the task , I'd move the page out of my user space. If not, 
I just drop it...


Best regards

Bernhard




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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Mirek, all

Mirek M. schrieb:

Hi Bernhard,

2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold


[...]

I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.

Here is the very first result:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements

A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image,
name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations,
advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of
implementation).

Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous
or lacking columns, add your own ideas -



I already have a table of some of my ideas on
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I add all
the ideas to the table?


My idea is to collect all the different elements in one table, leading 
to collaborative work on the single element instead of commenting a full 
mockup with a multitude of UI changes.


So yes, I'd like to see all of the elements on your page added to the table.

We'll have to split the table (quite soon, I hope) in different parts 
representing different areas of the UI, but similar ideas by several 
team members could be discussed together and integrated in a final 
position - leading to a specification and a proposal to the developers.



I'm assuming that would overflow the table,


Not really - as the table is sortable, an increasing number of entries 
could be handled by some hierarchical ordering or any other 
sophisticated structure.



especially when the "Description" column is so small,


This column should only contain a very short description of the feature 
- the details should stay on your page linked from the entry.



but which features do
I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table?


It just my personal idea, so it might be totally wrong. But I want to 
see all the proposed features listed in the table - until they have been 
aggregated to our team's specifications and "hack proposals".


If there are team members interested in such a more or less structured 
approach to the task , I'd move the page out of my user space. If not, I 
just drop it...


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Mirek M.]

Hi Bernhard,

2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi all,
>
> Bernhard Dippold schrieb:
>
>> Hi Björn, all
>>
>> Björn Balasz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bernhard, all,
>>>
>>> Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>>> [...]
>>>

 I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
 (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
 this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
 elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.

 I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

 While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
 more fields than just one caption below each image.

 With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
 to get the necessary information.

 A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
 to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
 specific design element (if existing) and many more information.

 On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.


>>> Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments
>>> are
>>> licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes
>>> at
>>> the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...
>>>
>>
>> I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too).
>>
>> My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team
>> members.
>>
>
> I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.
>
> Here is the very first result:
> http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/User:**Bedipp/UI_Elements
>
> A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image,
> name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations,
> advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of
> implementation).
>
> Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous
> or lacking columns, add your own ideas -


I already have a table of some of my ideas on
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I add all
the ideas to the table? I'm assuming that would overflow the table,
especially when the "Description" column is so small, but which features do
I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table?
Thanks.

>
> But most important: discuss it here.
>
> If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my personal
> page.
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
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> design+help@global.**libreoffice.org
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi all,

Bernhard Dippold schrieb:

Hi Björn, all

Björn Balasz wrote:

Hi Bernhard, all,

Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]


I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
(perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.

I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
more fields than just one caption below each image.

With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
to get the necessary information.

A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
specific design element (if existing) and many more information.

On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.



Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are
licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at
the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...


I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too).

My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team members.


I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.

Here is the very first result:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements

A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image, 
name and date of upload, last activity, description, other 
implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority 
(or status of implementation).


Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find 
superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas -


But most important: discuss it here.

If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my 
personal page.


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[planas]

Hi Steve

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:58 +1200, Steve Edmonds wrote:

> Hi Planas.
> 
> On 22/06/11 10:05 AM, planas wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Björn, all
> >>
> >> Björn Balazs schrieb:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> >>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs 
> >>> to
> >>> look linke this...".
> >> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
> >> area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
> >> proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
> >>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> >>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on 
> >>> that),
> >>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - 
> >>> the
> >>> developers and the companies paying them.
> >> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> >> another group coding on their own.
> >>
> >> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> >> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
> >> way into the product.
> >>
> >> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> >> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> >> interested and involved...
> >>> [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
> >>>
> >>> So, how can we make this more productive?
> >>>
> >>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to 
> >>> not
> >>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision 
> >>> with
> >>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
> >> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
> >> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
> >> gallery of the different mockups.
> >>
> >> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
> >> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
> >> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
> >> decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
> >> implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
> >> information for the developers.
> >>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. 
> >>> Knowing
> >>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> >>> decide about what they like.
> >> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
> >> modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
> >> which feature should be implemented in which way:
> >>
> >> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
> >> base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
> >> the product ...), users can't have in mind.
> >>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the 
> >>> code-sponsors
> >>> to go into a certain direction.
> >> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
> >> marketing and development ...
> >>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. 
> >>> Easy
> >>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
> >> +1
> >>
> >> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> >> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> >> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> >> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> >>
> >> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> >>
> >> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> >> more fields than just one caption below each image.
> >>
> >> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> >> to get the necessary information.
> >>
> >> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> >> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> >> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> >>
> >> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> Bernhard
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
> >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be 
> >> deleted
> >>
> > Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
> > the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
> > base.
> >
> > I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an impr

Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Steve Edmonds]

Hi Planas.

On 22/06/11 10:05 AM, planas wrote:

Hi all,
On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:


Hi Björn, all

Björn Balazs schrieb:

Hi all,

I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
look linke this...".

For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
proposals in general directions for UI improvements.

This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
developers and the companies paying them.

Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
another group coding on their own.

What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
way into the product.

But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
interested and involved...

[... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]

So, how can we make this more productive?

Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.

A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
gallery of the different mockups.

If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
information for the developers.

We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
decide about what they like.

Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
which feature should be implemented in which way:

There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
the product ...), users can't have in mind.

With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
to go into a certain direction.

That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
marketing and development ...

So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?

+1

I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
(perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.

I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
more fields than just one caption below each image.

With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
to get the necessary information.

A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
specific design element (if existing) and many more information.

On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
base.

I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved
version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who
prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and
finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it
meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized.

Personally, I am most in the last group of being more interested in
meeting certain goals rather than the graphical layout itself. I would
prefer to let the layout be determined by specific design goals such as
user customization, being well organized. I do not object to a new
interface if it will meet these and simil

[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Björn, all

Björn Balasz wrote:
> Hi Bernhard, all,
> 
> Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> [...]
> > > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> > > that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and
> > > financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them.
> > 
> > [...]  if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> > needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> > interested and involved...
> 
> I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up 
> with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary 
> developers!

In a community of volunteers shared positions by all team members are hard
to establish, especially if you try to integrate designers and developers in one
team.

But your right: This needs to be our goal. 

And this will only be able to reached by clear (user) data and convincing 
scepticists by good and valid arguments.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> > (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> > this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> > elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> > 
> > I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> > 
> > While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> > more fields than just one caption below each image.
> > 
> > With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> > to get the necessary information.
> > 
> > A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> > to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> > specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> > 
> > On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> > 
> 
> Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are 
> licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at 
> the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...

I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too).

My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our tema members.

Best regards

Bernhard




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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Björn Balazs]

Hi Steve,

Am Mittwoch, 22. Juni 2011, 09:22:33 schrieb Steve Edmonds:
[...]
> I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package,
> complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not
> haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all
> questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every
> menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on
> writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring
> wide to tall space.
> May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO
> components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down.
> When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction
> is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered.
> The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function
> needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this)
> Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented.

Please do not mix up two distinct steps.

1. We need to collect the ideas. This is what this thread is about (as I 
understand it)

2. Extract the ideas behind the ideas and create something developers can 
work with. We have not even adressed this topic, as no major UI changes will 
take place at the moment, because developers are on totally different tasks 
(refactoring code to be able to change the UI in future).

Let us talk about step 2 once we have a working solution for step 1 - or 
noone will be able to follow the discussions anymore... :)

Best,
Björn


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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Björn Balazs]

Hi Bernhard, all,

Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]
> > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> > that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and
> > financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them.
> 
> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> another group coding on their own.
> 
> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
> way into the product.
> 
> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> interested and involved...

I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up 
with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary 
developers!

[...]

> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> 
> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> 
> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> more fields than just one caption below each image.
> 
> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> to get the necessary information.
> 
> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> 
> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> 

Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are 
licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at 
the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...

Best,
Björn

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Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[planas]

Hi all,
On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

> Hi Björn, all
> 
> Björn Balazs schrieb:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> > the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
> > look linke this...".
> 
> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design 
> area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different 
> proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
> >
> > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
> > we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> > developers and the companies paying them.
> 
> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is 
> another group coding on their own.
> 
> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If 
> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their 
> way into the product.
> 
> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the 
> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers 
> interested and involved...
> >
> > [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
> >
> > So, how can we make this more productive?
> >
> > Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> > comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
> > eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
> 
> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI 
> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a 
> gallery of the different mockups.
> 
> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context 
> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user 
> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements, 
> decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for 
> implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary 
> information for the developers.
> >
> > We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> > these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> > decide about what they like.
> 
> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI 
> modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide 
> which feature should be implemented in which way:
> 
> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user 
> base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of 
> the product ...), users can't have in mind.
> >
> > With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> > to go into a certain direction.
> 
> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince 
> marketing and development ...
> >
> > So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> > to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
> 
> +1
> 
> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through 
> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI 
> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> 
> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> 
> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add 
> more fields than just one caption below each image.
> 
> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages 
> to get the necessary information.
> 
> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow 
> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each 
> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> 
> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Bernhard
> 
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> 

Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
base. 

I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved
version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who
prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and
finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it
meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized.

Personally, I am most in the last group of being more interested in
meeting certain goals rather

Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Steve Edmonds]

Hi All.

On 22/06/11 9:09 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Hi Björn, all

Björn Balazs schrieb:

Hi all,

I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going 
into
the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it 
needs to

look linke this...".


For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI 
design area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the 
different proposals in general directions for UI improvements.


This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on 
that),
we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it 
- the

developers and the companies paying them.


Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is 
another group coding on their own.


What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If 
we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find 
their way into the product.


But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the 
needs our users to the entire community, this would get more 
developers interested and involved...


[... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]

So, how can we make this more productive?

Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way 
to not
comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy 
comparision with

eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.


A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI 
improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a 
gallery of the different mockups.


If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context 
sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user 
data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert 
statements, decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended 
for implementation based on a specification containing all the 
necessary information for the developers.


We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. 
Knowing

these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
decide about what they like.


Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for 
UI modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to 
decide which feature should be implemented in which way:


There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present 
user base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other 
areas of the product ...), users can't have in mind.


With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the 
code-sponsors

to go into a certain direction.


That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince 
marketing and development ...


So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface 
ideas. Easy

to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?


+1

I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
(perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go 
through this gallery and collect the single features for another 
gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our 
overall concept.


I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to 
add more fields than just one caption below each image.


With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki 
pages to get the necessary information.


A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would 
allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for 
each specific design element (if existing) and many more information.


On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.

Best regards

Bernhard

I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package, 
complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not 
haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all 
questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every 
menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on 
writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring 
wide to tall space.
May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO 
components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down. 
When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction 
is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered.
The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function 
needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this)

Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented.
steve

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Björn, all

Björn Balazs schrieb:

Hi all,

I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
look linke this...".


For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design 
area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different 
proposals in general directions for UI improvements.


This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
developers and the companies paying them.


Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is 
another group coding on their own.


What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If 
we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their 
way into the product.


But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the 
needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers 
interested and involved...


[... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]

So, how can we make this more productive?

Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.


A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI 
improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a 
gallery of the different mockups.


If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context 
sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user 
data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements, 
decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for 
implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary 
information for the developers.


We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
decide about what they like.


Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI 
modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide 
which feature should be implemented in which way:


There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user 
base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of 
the product ...), users can't have in mind.


With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
to go into a certain direction.


That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince 
marketing and development ...


So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?


+1

I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
(perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through 
this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI 
elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.


I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add 
more fields than just one caption below each image.


With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages 
to get the necessary information.


A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow 
to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each 
specific design element (if existing) and many more information.


On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Björn Balazs]

Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011, 22:43:26 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the
> LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure.
[...]
> With our Visual Elements page
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
> we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files,
> so this might be a starting point...

+1

Best,
Björn

-- 
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Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Astron]

Hi back,
> We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the LibreOffice/TDF
> infrastructure.

Yes, however, ADDITIONALLY it might be helpful to have a Flickr group
that would be linked to from the Wiki, so everyone with at least a
Yahoo account could post their ideas instantly.

> With our Visual Elements page
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
> we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, so
> this might be a starting point...

However, the new page should probably be sub-page of the Whiteboard page.

Astron.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Joed, all

jlopez777 schrieb:

we can host it here

www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com


We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the 
LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure.


Individual contributors can't assure future commitment and they should 
not feel forced to keep their resources open for the community when they 
had to leave our team for one reason or another.


Backups and archives are another point why I strongly prefer our wiki 
for tasks manageable there. If we lack additional resources, we might 
ask for hosting them on the TDF infrastructure.


But galleries are able to be presented on the wiki, so I don't see any 
need for external tools.


With our Visual Elements page
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, 
so this might be a starting point...


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[jlopez777]

we can host it here

www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Sean White  wrote:

> I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a
> different site??
>
>
we can host it here

www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com



> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger
> wrote:
>
> > +1 on the gallery concept.
> >
> > I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI
> > reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates
> to
> > add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?
> >
> >  I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because
> >> with
> >> that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether
> Microsoft
> >> is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because
> there
> >> designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are
> >> paid
> >> to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
> >> windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just
> that,
> >> so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
> >> And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if
> >> ribbon
> >> deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
> >> special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version
> >> ubuntu
> >> found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After
> all,
> >> all is a habit.
> >>
> >> I fully agree with the gallery idea.
> >>
> >> 2011/6/20 Björn Balazs
> >>
> >>  Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going
> >>> into
> >>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it
> needs
> >>> to
> >>> look linke this...".
> >>>
> >>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> >>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> >>> that),
> >>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it -
> >>> the
> >>> developers and the companies paying them.
> >>>
> >>> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same
> discussion
> >>> all
> >>> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors
> of
> >>> new
> >>> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A
> conflict
> >>> in
> >>> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of
> >>> sponsoring
> >>> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
> >>> will
> >>> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised
> that
> >>> the
> >>> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us,
> not
> >>> the
> >>> users and not the sponsors).
> >>>
> >>> So, how can we make this more productive?
> >>>
> >>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to
> >>> not
> >>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
> >>> with
> >>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
> >>>
> >>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on.
> >>> Knowing
> >>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the
> users
> >>> decide about what they like.
> >>>
> >>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the
> >>> code-sponsors
> >>> to go into a certain direction.
> >>>
> >>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas.
> >>> Easy
> >>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Björn
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
> >>> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-**
> >>> Usability-Labs.com 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**
> libreoffice.org
> >>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
> >>> Netiquette 
> >>> List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/<
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/>
> >>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> >>> deleted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
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> 
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
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> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/>
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sean White,
> I've Seen the Cow Level
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Sean White]

I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a
different site??

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger
wrote:

> +1 on the gallery concept.
>
> I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI
> reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates to
> add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?
>
>  I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because
>> with
>> that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
>> is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
>> designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are
>> paid
>> to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
>> windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
>> so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
>> And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if
>> ribbon
>> deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
>> special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version
>> ubuntu
>> found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
>> all is a habit.
>>
>> I fully agree with the gallery idea.
>>
>> 2011/6/20 Björn Balazs
>>
>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going
>>> into
>>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
>>> to
>>> look linke this...".
>>>
>>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
>>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
>>> that),
>>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it -
>>> the
>>> developers and the companies paying them.
>>>
>>> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
>>> all
>>> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
>>> new
>>> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict
>>> in
>>> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of
>>> sponsoring
>>> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
>>> will
>>> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
>>> the
>>> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
>>> the
>>> users and not the sponsors).
>>>
>>> So, how can we make this more productive?
>>>
>>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to
>>> not
>>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
>>> with
>>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>>>
>>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on.
>>> Knowing
>>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
>>> decide about what they like.
>>>
>>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the
>>> code-sponsors
>>> to go into a certain direction.
>>>
>>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas.
>>> Easy
>>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Björn
>>>
>>> --
>>> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
>>> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-**
>>> Usability-Labs.com 
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
>>> design+help@global.**libreoffice.org
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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-- 
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I've Seen the Cow Level

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Scott Pledger]

+1 on the gallery concept.

I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different 
UI reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some 
templates to add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?

I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with
that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid
to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if ribbon
deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu
found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
all is a habit.

I fully agree with the gallery idea.

2011/6/20 Björn Balazs


Hi all,

I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
to
look linke this...".

This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
that),
we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
developers and the companies paying them.

We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
all
over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
new
software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in
personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring
companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
will
predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
the
sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
the
users and not the sponsors).

So, how can we make this more productive?

Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
with
eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.

We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
decide about what they like.

With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
to go into a certain direction.

So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?

Best,
Björn

--
Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

[Budislav Stepanov]

I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with
that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid
to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if ribbon
deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu
found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
all is a habit.

I fully agree with the gallery idea.

2011/6/20 Björn Balazs 

> Hi all,
>
> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
> to
> look linke this...".
>
> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> that),
> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> developers and the companies paying them.
>
> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
> all
> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
> new
> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in
> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring
> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
> will
> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
> the
> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
> the
> users and not the sponsors).
>
> So, how can we make this more productive?
>
> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
> with
> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>
> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> decide about what they like.
>
> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> to go into a certain direction.
>
> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>
> Best,
> Björn
>
> --
> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Budislav

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