Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hello everyone, I've been working with the GitHub guys and Andrea Veri on setting up a mirror for all GNOME repos in GitHub. I have more detailes about this in a blog post[0] I just published. The aim of this mirror is just to serve as a starting point for people wanting to have a public branch where they can publicize their work even if they don't have a GNOME account. It should also help maintainers keep track of the work people is doing out there with their code. There's no intention to support pull requests or to depend in any way in this service, this is just a nice-to-have to serve the GitHub's community and user base. The hooks are supposed to be non invasive and this should be completely transparent to the rest of our infrastructure, if you have any issues feel free to get in touch with me or Andrea! Let me know if you have any questions or requests, happy hacking! [0] http://aruiz.synaptia.net/siliconisland/2013/08/gnomes-official-github-mirror.html -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hello, GitHub indeed offers many features that Gnome's git web interface doesn't. But may I ask why you chose GitHub and not some other service? I'll tell you why it's important in my humble opinion, to ask this question. As you many have heard already, most Git hosting websites use proprietary software and are impossible to clone, which means these services are *partially proprietary* and it means they are *centralized*. Examples: GitHub Google Code SourceForge Launchpad (may technically be opensource but running a clone is forbidden = not really free software...) Actually, the only service I know which is truly free software IIRC, is Gitorious. Also, there's GitLab. They run servers but you can easily setup your own server, being idenpendent and running on fully free software. I just wanted to know whether you took these things into account. (Certainly the popularity of GitHub is not the reason you chose it I guess, just like the popularity of Windows doesn't make us focus on Windows support, and the popularity of Skype doesn't make us focus on Skype connectivity of our apps). Regards, fr33domlover On ה', 2013-08-15 at 11:03 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: Hello everyone, I've been working with the GitHub guys and Andrea Veri on setting up a mirror for all GNOME repos in GitHub. I have more detailes about this in a blog post[0] I just published. The aim of this mirror is just to serve as a starting point for people wanting to have a public branch where they can publicize their work even if they don't have a GNOME account. It should also help maintainers keep track of the work people is doing out there with their code. There's no intention to support pull requests or to depend in any way in this service, this is just a nice-to-have to serve the GitHub's community and user base. The hooks are supposed to be non invasive and this should be completely transparent to the rest of our infrastructure, if you have any issues feel free to get in touch with me or Andrea! Let me know if you have any questions or requests, happy hacking! [0] http://aruiz.synaptia.net/siliconisland/2013/08/gnomes-official-github-mirror.html ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:26 AM, אנטולי קרסנר fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, Hi, Examples: […] SourceForge SourceForge is actually free software now. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SourceForge#Apache_relicense (Certainly the popularity of GitHub is not the reason you chose it I guess, just like the popularity of Windows doesn't make us focus on Windows support, and the popularity of Skype doesn't make us focus on As you can see in Alberto's answer, it is indeed just a question of popularity and I agree with you that this is a sad thing. -- Alexandre Franke ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hello Alexandre, 2013/8/15 Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com: (Certainly the popularity of GitHub is not the reason you chose it I guess, just like the popularity of Windows doesn't make us focus on Windows support, and the popularity of Skype doesn't make us focus on As you can see in Alberto's answer, it is indeed just a question of popularity and I agree with you that this is a sad thing. We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. We accept money from Google for the GSoC's every year and I see no complaints. Everything is a matter on how you look at things really. As I mentioned before, if you want a gitorious mirror, feel free to start working on it, I fully support the idea, I'm just not interested in investing the time on it myself because I see no much value in it (on the other hand, I see the value on running our own instance). -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alberto Ruiz ar...@gnome.org wrote: We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. We accept money from Google for the GSoC's every year and I see no complaints. Everything is a matter on how you look at things really. I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? As I mentioned before, if you want a gitorious mirror, feel free to start working on it, I fully support the idea, I'm just not interested in investing the time on it myself because I see no much value in it (on the other hand, I see the value on running our own instance). I really don't care much about my code being mirrored anywhere. At least gitorious would be ethically acceptable, so it wouldn't bother me, but I won't invest time in this. I see the value of this as a backup though, so if others want to work on this I say that's a good thing. Anyway this is really not what was the most important point to me in my previous email and you didn't answer the question I really cared about, so I'm asking again: is there a way for maintainers to opt out of the github mirroring? -- Alexandre Franke ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
2013/8/15 Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alberto Ruiz ar...@gnome.org wrote: We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. We accept money from Google for the GSoC's every year and I see no complaints. Everything is a matter on how you look at things really. I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? Absolutely. I really don't care much about my code being mirrored anywhere. At least gitorious would be ethically acceptable, so it wouldn't bother me, but I won't invest time in this. I see the value of this as a backup though, so if others want to work on this I say that's a good thing. Anyway this is really not what was the most important point to me in my previous email and you didn't answer the question I really cared about, so I'm asking again: is there a way for maintainers to opt out of the github mirroring? At the moment, no there isn't. Patches to the hook and help to make this happen are welcome. -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hey, On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:07:23PM +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: Anyway this is really not what was the most important point to me in my previous email and you didn't answer the question I really cared about, so I'm asking again: is there a way for maintainers to opt out of the github mirroring? Speaking as someone who has a Gitorious account and not a GitHub one, what will you gain by opting out? It won't stop someone from cloning your code on GitHub. This way you atleast have a canonical tree on GitHub where you can see what people are doing with your stuff. Basically, I don't think that choosing to opt-out is strong enough message even on ethical grounds. Cheers, Debarshi -- Life is like bein' on a mule team. Unless you're the lead mule, all the scenery looks about the same. pgpaOaXH9F1Yv.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se wrote: Speaking as someone who has a Gitorious account and not a GitHub one, what will you gain by opting out? It won't stop someone from cloning your code on GitHub. This way you atleast have a canonical tree on GitHub where you can see what people are doing with your stuff. I agree that people are free to take code and copy it there. This doesn't mean that we should make it easy for them. Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. Basically, I don't think that choosing to opt-out is strong enough message even on ethical grounds. What you're saying is basically that if someone's fight is not worth fighting, we shouldn't let them fight it. -- Alexandre Franke ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
hi; On 15 August 2013 11:38, Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se wrote: Speaking as someone who has a Gitorious account and not a GitHub one, what will you gain by opting out? It won't stop someone from cloning your code on GitHub. This way you atleast have a canonical tree on GitHub where you can see what people are doing with your stuff. I agree that people are free to take code and copy it there. This doesn't mean that we should make it easy for them. I thought that making it easy for them to take the code and copy it was the entire point of using a distributed version control system. actually, I was pretty sure that this was the whole point of having free access to the software source code in the first place. Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
The results GitHub brings are not relevant in this case. TONS of useful software have been created - and are still being created - using Microsoft tools, and many other proprietary tools. So what? I think it's somewhat unfair to make the GitHub mirroring automatic and let people send their patches. What if I don't know how to do it or have no time? I think it should be every maintainer's right to decide they don't want to cooperate with a proprietary service. You don't see complaints about GSoC because money blinds people. But here you go: I hereby complain about the policy of Gnome projects to supply support for Google, Facebook and Live.com before they even consider adding similar support for free open alternatives (such as Diaspora, Friendica and MediaGoblin). To be honest, none of my code belongs to Gnome, and I use only Gitorious for hosting. But this upcoming GitHub support would just discourage me from wanting to contribute upstream, and discourage freedom-enthusiasts from joining in. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 12:11 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: 2013/8/15 Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alberto Ruiz ar...@gnome.org wrote: We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. We accept money from Google for the GSoC's every year and I see no complaints. Everything is a matter on how you look at things really. I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? Absolutely. I really don't care much about my code being mirrored anywhere. At least gitorious would be ethically acceptable, so it wouldn't bother me, but I won't invest time in this. I see the value of this as a backup though, so if others want to work on this I say that's a good thing. Anyway this is really not what was the most important point to me in my previous email and you didn't answer the question I really cared about, so I'm asking again: is there a way for maintainers to opt out of the github mirroring? At the moment, no there isn't. Patches to the hook and help to make this happen are welcome. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com wrote: I thought that making it easy for them to take the code and copy it was the entire point of using a distributed version control system. actually, I was pretty sure that this was the whole point of having free access to the software source code in the first place. I have nothing against free access to the source code. git.gnome.org already ensures that. As I said earlier, if someone wants to clone a module to work on it and have their clone on github because that's where they chose to host it to share their work, fine by me. This is already possible without the GNOME mirror. This doesn't mean I have to endorse it, or approve a move towards it. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? Frankly, I am not really motivated to elaborate more. As you can see from this thread, people disagree with this action, which has been taken in their name (as they are GNOME foundation members, GNOME module maintainers and GNOME committers). It should be possible for them not to have their name associated with it, whatever their reasons are, and without having to justify themselves. -- Alexandre Franke ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 12:07 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: I really don't care much about my code being mirrored anywhere. Anyway this is really not what was the most important point to me in my previous email and you didn't answer the question I really cared about, so I'm asking again: is there a way for maintainers to opt out of the github mirroring? I don't see any question in your last email, so you're not asking *again*. If you don't care much about your code being mirrored, it probably means that Can maintainers opt out? is a theoretical question. Or even a non-existing problem (so far). I hope there's no opt-out to avoid a cumbersome You can get most of GNOME's codebase also on the most popular code hosting website, but not everything because not all maintainers liked that idea situation. andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 13:39 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: I don't see any question in your last email, so you're not asking *again*. Ah. Either you asked on foundation-list only and not d-d-l, or my mail filters are wonky. Sorry. andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andre Klapper ak...@gmx.net wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 12:07 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: I really don't care much about my code being mirrored anywhere. If you don't care much about your code being mirrored, it probably means that Can maintainers opt out? is a theoretical question. Or even a non-existing problem (so far). Ok, I probably misphrased that since English is not my native language. What I meant is that my code being mirrored is not something I want to push for, it's not something I consider as needed. That was an explanation for the fact that I won't be contributing to a gitorious mirror. That didn't mean that having the github mirror is a non-issue to me. I hope this makes my opinion clearer. -- Alexandre Franke ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. If the maintainer agrees to look to those extra clones, all is well, but if he decides he won't look at them (because it's too much work, or for whatever other reason), he may want to disable them. That's because when people put GNOME code on Github themselves, they don't expect the maintainer to be aware of that. If *we* clone it there, then there may be expectations, giving the illusion the maintainer cares about what is done there. IMHO, if we want all of GNOME source cloned, and don't want to allow each maintainer to opt-out of extra clones, we should at the very least have a disclaimer telling that the maintainer encourages upstream contribution and should not be expected to poll or care about that extra clone. Another way would be to give information about the coding standards where are the extra clones, and allow pull requests. But this would put extra pressure on the maintainer. My 2 cents... -- Luis Menina ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. as I said the last time the idea of a github clone was being floated around, I don't want to look in multiple places for patches. nor I want to get pull requests from mirrors I don't maintain directly — and even then, I basically always say that if a patch is not on Bugzilla, then it doesn't exist. the work that Alberto did, though, seem to be clear that: a) the canonical place for submitting patches is Bugzilla, and b) the GitHub clones are for mirroring only, so that people can easily create a public fork on their own GitHub account when they wish to hack on something. it is, essentially, a read-only mirror. as a maintainer, I don't have a problem with exposing my code on multiple venues — that's what I do already every day. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
No problems, GNOME having read-only mirrors can be useful to people. Just make sure there's an easy way to opt out. For example, I wouldn't want any of my code automatically uploaded to GitHub. I think every maintainer should have the right to cancel mirroring for their module. If GitHub was free software, decentralized, etc, then I could maybe agree that mirroring can be activated by default for existing and new modules. But considering the nature of GitHub, I consider it somewhat rude to mirror a module without letting a maintainer an option to cancel it, or make it disabled by default and allowing the maintainer to switch it on. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 13:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. as I said the last time the idea of a github clone was being floated around, I don't want to look in multiple places for patches. nor I want to get pull requests from mirrors I don't maintain directly — and even then, I basically always say that if a patch is not on Bugzilla, then it doesn't exist. the work that Alberto did, though, seem to be clear that: a) the canonical place for submitting patches is Bugzilla, and b) the GitHub clones are for mirroring only, so that people can easily create a public fork on their own GitHub account when they wish to hack on something. it is, essentially, a read-only mirror. as a maintainer, I don't have a problem with exposing my code on multiple venues — that's what I do already every day. ciao, Emmanuele. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:34 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.orgwrote: No problems, GNOME having read-only mirrors can be useful to people. Just make sure there's an easy way to opt out. For example, I wouldn't want any of my code automatically uploaded to GitHub. I think every maintainer should have the right to cancel mirroring for their module. If GitHub was free software, decentralized, etc, then I could maybe agree that mirroring can be activated by default for existing and new modules. But considering the nature of GitHub, I consider it somewhat rude to mirror a module without letting a maintainer an option to cancel it, or make it disabled by default and allowing the maintainer to switch it on. Who gets the say? What happens if there's two maintainers to a project? What if you've contributed code to GNOME that's under a different repository. What happens if someone manually mirrors your repository under their own name. It's not realistic to have an opt-out button for contributors. It's free software, and that doesn't change whether we put it on a proprietary platform or not. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 13:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. as I said the last time the idea of a github clone was being floated around, I don't want to look in multiple places for patches. nor I want to get pull requests from mirrors I don't maintain directly — and even then, I basically always say that if a patch is not on Bugzilla, then it doesn't exist. the work that Alberto did, though, seem to be clear that: a) the canonical place for submitting patches is Bugzilla, and b) the GitHub clones are for mirroring only, so that people can easily create a public fork on their own GitHub account when they wish to hack on something. it is, essentially, a read-only mirror. as a maintainer, I don't have a problem with exposing my code on multiple venues — that's what I do already every day. ciao, Emmanuele. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:07:23PM +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alberto Ruiz ar...@gnome.org wrote: We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. We accept money from Google for the GSoC's every year and I see no complaints. Everything is a matter on how you look at things really. I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? And, yet, you use GMail. Cheers, Debarshi -- Life is like bein' on a mule team. Unless you're the lead mule, all the scenery looks about the same. pgpKMwwORb3Ka.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hey there, I can't help but notice that your mail provider, mailoo has a twitter account to promote themselves: https://twitter.com/mailoopointorg You should switch your email provider immediatly, as they are promoting a centralized closed source service in their very frontpage! 2013/8/15 fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org: Hey Jasper, Excellent questions. I suggest module maintainers decide together on each module, and other people can't control the mirroring in their name. You can suggest all that you want, but until the day Or just take the simple solution: Use a free software decentralized git hosting. For example Gitorious or Gitlab. Gitlab seems to have many cool features like Github and it's fully free software you can run on your own server. Does anyone have something against using these, instead of the proprietary centralized alternative GitHub, which happens to be popular? It's not my fault people use GitHub. It certainly doesn't mean I get basic rights taken, just because people don't care enough about the freedom of the software they use. I refuse to endorse Github in any way, on the grounds of it being partially proprietary and centralized. Can anything make more sense than this? Isn't software freedom our basics? On ה', 2013-08-15 at 08:37 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:34 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: No problems, GNOME having read-only mirrors can be useful to people. Just make sure there's an easy way to opt out. For example, I wouldn't want any of my code automatically uploaded to GitHub. I think every maintainer should have the right to cancel mirroring for their module. If GitHub was free software, decentralized, etc, then I could maybe agree that mirroring can be activated by default for existing and new modules. But considering the nature of GitHub, I consider it somewhat rude to mirror a module without letting a maintainer an option to cancel it, or make it disabled by default and allowing the maintainer to switch it on. Who gets the say? What happens if there's two maintainers to a project? What if you've contributed code to GNOME that's under a different repository. What happens if someone manually mirrors your repository under their own name. It's not realistic to have an opt-out button for contributors. It's free software, and that doesn't change whether we put it on a proprietary platform or not. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 13:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. as I said the last time the idea of a github clone was being floated around, I don't want to look in multiple places for patches. nor I want to get pull requests from mirrors I don't maintain directly — and even then, I basically always say that if a patch is not on Bugzilla, then it doesn't exist. the work that Alberto did, though, seem to be clear that: a) the canonical place for submitting patches is Bugzilla, and b) the GitHub clones are for mirroring only, so that people can easily create a public fork on their own GitHub account when they wish to hack on something. it is, essentially, a
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:57 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: Hey there, I can't help but notice that your mail provider, mailoo has a twitter account to promote themselves: https://twitter.com/mailoopointorg You should switch your email provider immediatly, as they are promoting a centralized closed source service in their very frontpage! 2013/8/15 fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org: Hey Jasper, Excellent questions. I suggest module maintainers decide together on each module, and other people can't control the mirroring in their name. You can suggest all that you want, but until the day Or just take the simple solution: Use a free software decentralized git hosting. For example Gitorious or Gitlab. Gitlab seems to have many cool features like Github and it's fully free software you can run on your own server. Does anyone have something against using these, instead of the proprietary centralized alternative GitHub, which happens to be popular? It's not my fault people use GitHub. It certainly doesn't mean I get basic rights taken, just because people don't care enough about the freedom of the software they use. I refuse to endorse Github in any way, on the grounds of it being partially proprietary and centralized. Can anything make more sense than this? Isn't software freedom our basics? On ה', 2013-08-15 at 08:37 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:34 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: No problems, GNOME having read-only mirrors can be useful to people. Just make sure there's an easy way to opt out. For example, I wouldn't want any of my code automatically uploaded to GitHub. I think every maintainer should have the right to cancel mirroring for their module. If GitHub was free software, decentralized, etc, then I could maybe agree that mirroring can be activated by default for existing and new modules. But considering the nature of GitHub, I consider it somewhat rude to mirror a module without letting a maintainer an option to cancel it, or make it disabled by default and allowing the maintainer to switch it on. Who gets the say? What happens if there's two maintainers to a project? What if you've contributed code to GNOME that's under a different repository. What happens if someone manually mirrors your repository under their own name. It's not realistic to have an opt-out button for contributors. It's free software, and that doesn't change whether we put it on a proprietary platform or not. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 13:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones. as I said the last time the idea of a github clone was being floated around, I don't want to look in multiple places for patches. nor I want to get pull requests from mirrors I don't maintain directly — and even then, I basically always say that if
[Fwd: Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror]
My other account isn't a member of this list. I'm forwarding the message הודעה מועברת מאת: fr33domlover fr33domlo...@openmailbox.org אל: Alberto Ruiz ar...@gnome.org Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org desktop-devel-list@gnome.org נושא: Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror תאריך: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:11:16 +0300 * There you go, I switched. (I assume you'll make a google-search on * openmailbox.org now. Have fun.) * * Your turn. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:57 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: Hey there, I can't help but notice that your mail provider, mailoo has a twitter account to promote themselves: https://twitter.com/mailoopointorg You should switch your email provider immediatly, as they are promoting a centralized closed source service in their very frontpage! 2013/8/15 fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org: Hey Jasper, Excellent questions. I suggest module maintainers decide together on each module, and other people can't control the mirroring in their name. You can suggest all that you want, but until the day Or just take the simple solution: Use a free software decentralized git hosting. For example Gitorious or Gitlab. Gitlab seems to have many cool features like Github and it's fully free software you can run on your own server. Does anyone have something against using these, instead of the proprietary centralized alternative GitHub, which happens to be popular? It's not my fault people use GitHub. It certainly doesn't mean I get basic rights taken, just because people don't care enough about the freedom of the software they use. I refuse to endorse Github in any way, on the grounds of it being partially proprietary and centralized. Can anything make more sense than this? Isn't software freedom our basics? On ה', 2013-08-15 at 08:37 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:34 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: No problems, GNOME having read-only mirrors can be useful to people. Just make sure there's an easy way to opt out. For example, I wouldn't want any of my code automatically uploaded to GitHub. I think every maintainer should have the right to cancel mirroring for their module. If GitHub was free software, decentralized, etc, then I could maybe agree that mirroring can be activated by default for existing and new modules. But considering the nature of GitHub, I consider it somewhat rude to mirror a module without letting a maintainer an option to cancel it, or make it disabled by default and allowing the maintainer to switch it on. Who gets the say? What happens if there's two maintainers to a project? What if you've contributed code to GNOME that's under a different repository. What happens if someone manually mirrors your repository under their own name. It's not realistic to have an opt-out button for contributors. It's free software, and that doesn't change whether we put it on a proprietary platform or not. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 13:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: hi Luis; thanks for answering. On 15 August 2013 13:00, Luis Menina liberfo...@freeside.fr wrote: Le 15/08/2013 12:44, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : Actually, the fact that we have to ask to opt out is an issue in itself. We shouldn't even have to. This should have been opt in from the start. People (maintainers and commiters in this case) shouldn't have to fight to get back what you have taken away from them. considering that this is a mirroring system of a distributed version control system, I'm puzzled as to what has been lost. you still have all your rights to the software you maintain and commit to, and you still have the right to push your work to more than one repository. care to elaborate a bit more on this? I'm not a maintainer, but it seems to me that a maintainer may want as few entry points for patches as possible, or at least not need to poll to find patches. We already have bugzilla, or git.gnome.org. If extra clones exist and seem officially endorsed by GNOME, and there's no process to send those patches upstream, this clearly means it's up to the maintainer to poll for patches on these extra clones.
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. why? By releasing your code under a Free license such as the GPL, you are allowing others to take your code, and essentially, do what they want with it. Free licenses by design are made to allow this, and if your app is part of the Gnome project, then Gnome are free to do what they want with it, in this case, to create a *read-only* mirror on GitHub in the intrest of convenience. -- Marco Scannadinari ma...@scannadinari.co.uk ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 14:47, Debarshi Ray a écrit : On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:07:23PM +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? And, yet, you use GMail. Could we please stop the witch hunt ? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. [Citation Needed]. Easy workaround: Just ignore the fact that there is a mirror. Problem solved, all happy. You don't need to corporate. And a big thanks to Alberto who spend his time to make GNOME's codebase available to more people by adding another distribution channel to it. Cheers, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.orgwrote: On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:29 +, Marco Scannadinari wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. why? Because Github is centralized, and partially proprietary. And it has great alternatives like Gitorious and Gitlab, which don't suffer from these problems. Having used both of these tools, they aren't anywhere near what GitHub does. Gitorious is slow, hard to navigate, and tends to spit out error messages when trying to load files from anything other than master. It's also impossible to view any binary file (icons, images) without downloading. GitLab is an attempt at emulating GitHub, but it feels like the standard open-source clone of closed software in that it's years behind and doesn't really have its own design or identity. By releasing your code under a Free license such as the GPL, you are allowing others to take your code, and essentially, do what they want with it. Free licenses by design are made to allow this, and if your app is part of the Gnome project, then Gnome are free to do what they want with it, in this case, to create a *read-only* mirror on GitHub in the intrest of convenience. Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. I'm curious how this is different than somebody taking your code repository and putting a personal fork of it on GitHub. Is it because GNOME's mirrors are called official, and that you feel that having a presence on any proprietary infrastructure feels detrimental to GNOME's philosophy and mission? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, August 15, 2013 9:47 am, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: Is it because GNOME's mirrors are called official, and that you feel that having a presence on any proprietary infrastructure feels detrimental to GNOME's philosophy and mission? I won't comment too much since as Kat says, this will be discussed by the board, but I do feel this way. Saying that it's official implies that the GNOME Foundation recommends it. I think that having official endorsements of proprietary software is detrimental to our mission to support software freedom. karen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
If someone takes my code and puts it on Github, it's their right to do so. I won't like it, but I won't stop them. It's their freedom. But in this case it's not someone randomly copying my work: It's *direct* mirroring of all my code, directly to Github, in an official manner. If you want the features of Github, copy its code and run your own instance. Using it officially means endorsing it and making it more popular. If you want to endorse it, I won't stop you. But I don't want to be part of this because of the Github issues I mentioned. Convenience is not everything. Some people don't use a smartphone because they want privacy. Or they don't use GMail, for the same reason. In a similar manner, people should be able not to have any formal connection to Github. I'll repeat: You can mirror anything you want to Github, just let module maintainers decide on their modules. Cloning a git repo and uploading to Github is very easy, we both know that. It's not like people can't upload code to Github without the mirrors. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 09:47 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:29 +, Marco Scannadinari wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. why? Because Github is centralized, and partially proprietary. And it has great alternatives like Gitorious and Gitlab, which don't suffer from these problems. Having used both of these tools, they aren't anywhere near what GitHub does. Gitorious is slow, hard to navigate, and tends to spit out error messages when trying to load files from anything other than master. It's also impossible to view any binary file (icons, images) without downloading. GitLab is an attempt at emulating GitHub, but it feels like the standard open-source clone of closed software in that it's years behind and doesn't really have its own design or identity. By releasing your code under a Free license such as the GPL, you are allowing others to take your code, and essentially, do what they want with it. Free licenses by design are made to allow this, and if your app is part of the Gnome project, then Gnome are free to do what they want with it, in this case, to create a *read-only* mirror on GitHub in the intrest of convenience. Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. I'm curious how this is different than somebody taking your code repository and putting a personal fork of it on GitHub. Is it because GNOME's mirrors are called official, and that you feel that having a presence on any proprietary infrastructure feels detrimental to GNOME's philosophy and mission? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 15:40, fr33domlover a écrit : Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. Software freedom is a good thing, and like many here, I love it to. You can't say people don't consider freedom here. Yes, Github is proprietary. But someone did the work to interact with it, proprietary or not. This means that if someone stepped up to add mirrors for gitorious or other free services, that would IMHO be accepted as well. Does forcing everyone to use free software is freedom ? I don't think so. But letting users of proprietary software know that we exist, and that we are free software, is part of our job too. I didn't come to Linux or GNOME because it was free software, but that is why I remained faithful to it. So users of non-free software shouldn't bee seen as second-class citizens. We need to find a good compromise between freeness and user outreach. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:56 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.orgwrote: If someone takes my code and puts it on Github, it's their right to do so. I won't like it, but I won't stop them. It's their freedom. But in this case it's not someone randomly copying my work: It's *direct* mirroring of all my code, directly to Github, in an official manner. So, as I understand it, your issue is the official and endorsed use of proprietary technologies in GNOME. Do you know we have official Twitter, Facebook and Google+ accounts that are updated regularly? Were you at GUADEC 2013? Beside the slides in every presentation was a public wall that displayed all tweets with the hashtag #guadec. It may have been hooked up to Identi.ca or one of the free software clones, but I didn't notice anybody using those. The design of the wall used Twitter's bird logo and theme. If you want the features of Github, copy its code and run your own instance. Using it officially means endorsing it and making it more popular. If you want to endorse it, I won't stop you. But I don't want to be part of this because of the Github issues I mentioned. Convenience is not everything. Some people don't use a smartphone because they want privacy. Or they don't use GMail, for the same reason. In a similar manner, people should be able not to have any formal connection to Github. I am not a member of the board, but I think that we use proprietary software as a way of competition and collaboration. In my opinion, standing in our own little corner of the world and pretending that the rest of the world doesn't exist is not a way to spread our message and get people using free software. Yes, we would prefer if Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and GitHub were all open and free, but our road is a long one, and we're still in the early stages of computing, and we need to make peace and collaborate with proprietary software makers, not war. I'll repeat: You can mirror anything you want to Github, just let module maintainers decide on their modules. Cloning a git repo and uploading to Github is very easy, we both know that. It's not like people can't upload code to Github without the mirrors. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 09:47 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:29 +, Marco Scannadinari wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. why? Because Github is centralized, and partially proprietary. And it has great alternatives like Gitorious and Gitlab, which don't suffer from these problems. Having used both of these tools, they aren't anywhere near what GitHub does. Gitorious is slow, hard to navigate, and tends to spit out error messages when trying to load files from anything other than master. It's also impossible to view any binary file (icons, images) without downloading. GitLab is an attempt at emulating GitHub, but it feels like the standard open-source clone of closed software in that it's years behind and doesn't really have its own design or identity. By releasing your code under a Free license such as the GPL, you are allowing others to take your code, and essentially, do what they want with it. Free licenses by design are made to allow this, and if your app is part of the Gnome project, then Gnome are free to do what they want with it, in this case, to create a *read-only* mirror on GitHub in the intrest of convenience. Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. I'm curious how this is different than somebody taking your code repository and putting a personal fork of it on GitHub. Is it because GNOME's mirrors are called official, and that you feel that having
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 11:03 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: There's no intention to support pull requests or to depend in any way in this service, this is just a nice-to-have to serve the GitHub's community and user base. My concern is that with no way to disable pull requests, potential contributors will submit them and get discouraged when they are ignored. This could be very confusing to a potential contributor who finds the code on GitHub and isn't familiar with our development flow. This might outweigh the benefit of putting code on GitHub at all (since we seem to have disabled all GitHub's useful features). I do see pull request merges popping up [1] but I suppose those are handled manually if the GitHub mirror is read-only? [1] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-music/log/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On ה', 2013-08-15 at 15:41 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. [Citation Needed]. Easy workaround: Just ignore the fact that there is a mirror. Problem solved, all happy. You don't need to corporate. It's like a government saying we're starting a war oversees, but you can just ignore it and continue with your life. I can't ignore it. There is not workaround for software freedom. And a big thanks to Alberto who spend his time to make GNOME's codebase available to more people by adding another distribution channel to it. You mean, to make GNOME's codebase available to more people who don't mind using GitHub by adding another proprietary centralized distribution channel to it. Cheers, andre ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 16:08, fr33domlover a écrit : You mean, to make GNOME's codebase available to more people who don't mind using GitHub by adding another proprietary centralized distribution channel to it. You're missing the point: the goal is not to encourage people to go to github to contribute, but encourage people which already are on github to contribute to GNOME. That's not the same thing. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
I agree. Here is the compromise: 1. People who don't mind having their module on Github can turn on mirroring 2. Peope who don't want it, can turn it off 3. People who want to clone a module not mirrored on Github, do it like now: clone a gnome repo, then upload it to Github in a single mouse click and start hacking. Still easy. Eventually, GitHub is supposed to help maintainers track contribution. If they don't want to use this tool (e.g. because it's proprietary), why force them to have it applied on their modules? On ה', 2013-08-15 at 16:01 +0200, Luis Menina wrote: Le 15/08/2013 15:40, fr33domlover a écrit : Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. Software freedom is a good thing, and like many here, I love it to. You can't say people don't consider freedom here. Yes, Github is proprietary. But someone did the work to interact with it, proprietary or not. This means that if someone stepped up to add mirrors for gitorious or other free services, that would IMHO be accepted as well. Does forcing everyone to use free software is freedom ? I don't think so. But letting users of proprietary software know that we exist, and that we are free software, is part of our job too. I didn't come to Linux or GNOME because it was free software, but that is why I remained faithful to it. So users of non-free software shouldn't bee seen as second-class citizens. We need to find a good compromise between freeness and user outreach. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
This might be harmless if there was a way to disable pull requests, but if we mirror repos on GitHub we have a responsibility to monitor for and accept pull requests, otherwise potential contributors who are unfamiliar with our development flow will be discouraged when their pull requests sit unnoticed. On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 12:26 +0300, אנטולי קרסנר wrote: Hello, GitHub indeed offers many features that Gnome's git web interface doesn't. Yes, but we've disabled them all. I really fail to see the point of GitHub without its killer feature (pull requests); it seems to have no advantages over our current infrastructure. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
2013/8/15 Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 12:26 +0300, אנטולי קרסנר wrote: Hello, GitHub indeed offers many features that Gnome's git web interface doesn't. Yes, but we've disabled them all. I really fail to see the point of GitHub without its killer feature (pull requests); it seems to have no advantages over our current infrastructure. Again, the point of the mirror is to encourage people that are on GitHub to contribute to the GNOME Project, how? By forking a specific repository and then following the usual procedure for having the patch reviewed and eventually accepted. We are not diverging (and we won't diverge) from our development workflow, I agree with you that leaving pull requests open can take in some confusion and we'll be trying to address that by adding the relevant wiki page [1] on the description of each of the repositories hosted on the mirror so that people are aware of that. In an ideal world we should just disable pull requests completely directly on Github, but that would require extra efforts from the Github's guys that did a lot to help us mirroring our source code. -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Pressed sent too early. [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/GitHub 2013/8/15 Andrea Veri a...@gnome.org 2013/8/15 Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 12:26 +0300, אנטולי קרסנר wrote: Hello, GitHub indeed offers many features that Gnome's git web interface doesn't. Yes, but we've disabled them all. I really fail to see the point of GitHub without its killer feature (pull requests); it seems to have no advantages over our current infrastructure. Again, the point of the mirror is to encourage people that are on GitHub to contribute to the GNOME Project, how? By forking a specific repository and then following the usual procedure for having the patch reviewed and eventually accepted. We are not diverging (and we won't diverge) from our development workflow, I agree with you that leaving pull requests open can take in some confusion and we'll be trying to address that by adding the relevant wiki page [1] on the description of each of the repositories hosted on the mirror so that people are aware of that. In an ideal world we should just disable pull requests completely directly on Github, but that would require extra efforts from the Github's guys that did a lot to help us mirroring our source code. -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 03:38:00PM +0200, Luis Menina wrote: I agree that everyone should be free to pick their fights. I agree that you you are free to pick yours and have them different from mine. Do you agree that mine can be different from yours? And, yet, you use GMail. Could we please stop the witch hunt ? If you are using GMail (a proprietary web application) for your GNOME work, and then turn around and start objecting to the use of GitHub as another / secondary distribution channel for our code, then, yes, I do find it insincere. Running your own email infrastructure is much much more easier than replicating GitHub with free software. If you don't even care about the easy things, then who are you to hold others to even higher standards? Cheers, Debarshi -- Life is like bein' on a mule team. Unless you're the lead mule, all the scenery looks about the same. pgpYNOMuXjbyc.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 16:12, fr33domlover a écrit : Eventually, GitHub is supposed to help maintainers track contribution. If they don't want to use this tool (e.g. because it's proprietary), why force them to have it applied on their modules? The problem for me is more that people may try to contribute to GNOME on Github, and think the maintainer tracks the contributions there. If a maintainer doesn't plan to track things there, he should be able to make it clear on Github. But you can't ask people not to put your code on github. Free software on a closed source infrastructure is still free software. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 16:30, Debarshi Ray a écrit : If you are using GMail (a proprietary web application) for your GNOME work, and then turn around and start objecting to the use of GitHub as another / secondary distribution channel for our code, then, yes, I do find it insincere. Running your own email infrastructure is much much more easier than replicating GitHub with free software. If you don't even care about the easy things, then who are you to hold others to even higher standards? In fact, I'm not the one using GMail, so please look who you're answering to... This 100% free software thing is just a goal. Would you throw a stone to a Linux user which uses Flash ? If you do, he may prefer to run it under Windows, where noone will nag him about it. He has a GMail account, right. Does this mean he loses his rights to disagree on a decision ? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On ה', 2013-08-15 at 16:10 +0200, Luis Menina wrote: Le 15/08/2013 16:08, fr33domlover a écrit : You mean, to make GNOME's codebase available to more people who don't mind using GitHub by adding another proprietary centralized distribution channel to it. You're missing the point: the goal is not to encourage people to go to github to contribute, but encourage people which already are on github to contribute to GNOME. That's not the same thing. Of course, nobody wants to encourage people to use a proprietary service (I hope so, at least). But assume I'm new to Gnome and I want to contribute. It's easier for me to do it through GitHub than through Gitorious, because of the mirrors. So you do encourage the use of GitHub, even if you don't intend to. Maybe GitHub will help more people contribute, but I don't see why it's so important. I prefer to have 3 developers who care, than to have 5 who don't care. If I didn't mind to use GitHub, I could as well not mind using Windows. GitHub is proprietary, just like Windows. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On 13-08-15 07:55 AM, Alexandre Franke wrote: Ok, I probably misphrased that since English is not my native language. What I meant is that my code being mirrored is not something I want to push for, it's not something I consider as needed. That was an explanation for the fact that I won't be contributing to a gitorious mirror. That didn't mean that having the github mirror is a non-issue to me. Good old love/hate sharing complex that comes with GPL thinking... More seriously, if you can't articulate the issue you have with it, please refrain from generating additional work for the sysadmin team. Makes me feel fuzzy in my stomach doesn't can't. My 0.02CAD -- behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 16:48, fr33domlover a écrit : But assume I'm new to Gnome and I want to contribute. It's easier for me to do it through GitHub than through Gitorious, because of the mirrors. Sure. But if you know GNOME, you also may contribute through bugzilla by sending patches using the GNOME repositories. This has not changed. We're adding freedom of choice here, not removing any. So you do encourage the use of GitHub, even if you don't intend to. It's indirectly encouraging github over gitorious or gitlab, because one has to come first, and that Github has more users. This doesn't mean that gitlab mirrors nor gitorious are forbidden. GNOME has always been a do-ocracy. The one who does the work has the final word, so I'm pretty sure anyone wanting to help mirror on gitlab or gitorious is welcome. Gitlab and gitorious people who strive to keep using only free software are still able to contribute using a GNOME account, bugzilla and the GNOME repositories. Nothing changes for them. Please keep in mind that here only *more* choices are given to people, not *less*. That's all about sharing. Maybe GitHub will help more people contribute, but I don't see why it's so important. I prefer to have 3 developers who care, than to have 5 who don't care. If I didn't mind to use GitHub, I could as well not mind using Windows. GitHub is proprietary, just like Windows. Do you dismiss a Linux user that uses Skype ? Would you prefer a Windows user that uses Firefox ? For me they are both free software users, event if not using 100% free software. I personally prefer that people use what they want. They should be able to decide if free software is a good thing for them. Free software is good, but it should be praised for being better than the competition *and* free, not just for being free. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On ה', 2013-08-15 at 17:07 +0200, Luis Menina wrote: Le 15/08/2013 16:48, fr33domlover a écrit : But assume I'm new to Gnome and I want to contribute. It's easier for me to do it through GitHub than through Gitorious, because of the mirrors. Sure. But if you know GNOME, you also may contribute through bugzilla by sending patches using the GNOME repositories. This has not changed. We're adding freedom of choice here, not removing any. Of course. But since only *one* service is being supported, specifically the proprietary GitHub, I suggest the decision is considered seriously before it's made. We're not adding several git hosting services, just a specific one, and it's centralized. So you do encourage the use of GitHub, even if you don't intend to. It's indirectly encouraging github over gitorious or gitlab, because one has to come first, and that Github has more users. This doesn't mean that gitlab mirrors nor gitorious are forbidden. GNOME has always been a do-ocracy. The one who does the work has the final word, so I'm pretty sure anyone wanting to help mirror on gitlab or gitorious is welcome. Gitlab and gitorious people who strive to keep using only free software are still able to contribute using a GNOME account, bugzilla and the GNOME repositories. Nothing changes for them. Please keep in mind that here only *more* choices are given to people, not *less*. That's all about sharing. Maybe GitHub will help more people contribute, but I don't see why it's so important. I prefer to have 3 developers who care, than to have 5 who don't care. If I didn't mind to use GitHub, I could as well not mind using Windows. GitHub is proprietary, just like Windows. Do you dismiss a Linux user that uses Skype ? Would you prefer a Windows user that uses Firefox ? For me they are both free software users, event if not using 100% free software. I personally prefer that people use what they want. They should be able to decide if free software is a good thing for them. Free software is good, but it should be praised for being better than the competition *and* free, not just for being free. I don't dismiss anyone. I just examine things from the point-of-view of a developer who believes in software freedom, and hopes other developers here believe in it too. Because of the importance of freedom, not because it saves money. I agree people should decide what they think about free software. That's why it's important official GitHub mirroring is not done without giving maintainers a unique switch for their module, to control whether it's mirrored or not. Free software doesn't have to be better than the competition: Libreoffice lacks some MS Office features, and still many people use it. Same for many other projects. Personally, I use free software that crashes, instead of a proprietary alternative, just because it's free software. Software freedom is important to me, very much. That's why I ask one little thing: If you want to make the GitHub mirroring official for the Gnome project's modules, allow maintainers to turn it on/off easily. That's all. If people as why some modules turn it off, you can say GitHub is proprietary after all, in contradiction to our goals of spreading software freedom and they'll understand. Is it a legitimate request to have such a switch for maintainers? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:27 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: We are not diverging (and we won't diverge) from our development workflow, I agree with you that leaving pull requests open can take in some confusion and we'll be trying to address that by adding the relevant wiki page [1] on the description of each of the repositories hosted on the mirror so that people are aware of that. As GitHub extracts and renders the README file below the repository file browser, such information could be easily exposed on GitHub. On a general note, GNOME is not the first FLOSS project discussing a GitHub mirror, so there might be evaluations out there already. I know I'm a few hours and dozens of emails too late, anyway: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/Gerrit_evaluation#GitHub https://blog.mozilla.org/labs/2010/08/contribute-to-labs-projects-on-github/ andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Many large projects use Gitorious successfully. I have just small repos there, so I don't feel any serious weaknesses, but some large projects (you can find a list on their website) do use it. I'm sure Gnome users can do it too. On ה', 2013-08-15 at 09:47 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, fr33domlover fr33domlo...@mailoo.org wrote: On ה', 2013-08-15 at 14:29 +, Marco Scannadinari wrote: On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 16:13 +0300, fr33domlover wrote: Allow me to clarify: You're free to use github mirrors, it's your right to do so. But I have the right not to cooperate with this. All Gnome maintainers have this right. If you're going to enable those github mirrors, make sure any maintainer can easily turn off mirroring for their module. why? Because Github is centralized, and partially proprietary. And it has great alternatives like Gitorious and Gitlab, which don't suffer from these problems. Having used both of these tools, they aren't anywhere near what GitHub does. Gitorious is slow, hard to navigate, and tends to spit out error messages when trying to load files from anything other than master. It's also impossible to view any binary file (icons, images) without downloading. GitLab is an attempt at emulating GitHub, but it feels like the standard open-source clone of closed software in that it's years behind and doesn't really have its own design or identity. By releasing your code under a Free license such as the GPL, you are allowing others to take your code, and essentially, do what they want with it. Free licenses by design are made to allow this, and if your app is part of the Gnome project, then Gnome are free to do what they want with it, in this case, to create a *read-only* mirror on GitHub in the intrest of convenience. Software freedom is more important for me than convenience. If you're interested in convenience you can use MS Windows, Dropbox, Facebook, Skype and Github. Stop developing Gnome and just watch TV all day. That's convenience. I feel that some decisions taken in the name of Gnome don't consider software freedom. That's not fair, especially because many people here are volunteers, and some of them volunteer in the name of software freedom, not convenience or profit. I'm curious how this is different than somebody taking your code repository and putting a personal fork of it on GitHub. Is it because GNOME's mirrors are called official, and that you feel that having a presence on any proprietary infrastructure feels detrimental to GNOME's philosophy and mission? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On 15/08/13 09:56 AM, fr33domlover wrote: If someone takes my code and puts it on Github, it's their right to do so. I won't like it, but I won't stop them. It's their freedom. But in this case it's not someone randomly copying my work: It's *direct* mirroring of all my code, directly to Github, in an official manner. I'm having a hard time following. Which modules do you maintain? Just so that we know the context. I couldn't figure it out myself. Hub ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Le 15/08/2013 17:21, fr33domlover a écrit : On ה', 2013-08-15 at 17:07 +0200, Luis Menina wrote: Le 15/08/2013 16:48, fr33domlover a écrit : But assume I'm new to Gnome and I want to contribute. It's easier for me to do it through GitHub than through Gitorious, because of the mirrors. Sure. But if you know GNOME, you also may contribute through bugzilla by sending patches using the GNOME repositories. This has not changed. We're adding freedom of choice here, not removing any. Of course. But since only *one* service is being supported, specifically the proprietary GitHub, I suggest the decision is considered seriously before it's made. We're not adding several git hosting services, just a specific one, and it's centralized. So you do encourage the use of GitHub, even if you don't intend to. It's indirectly encouraging github over gitorious or gitlab, because one has to come first, and that Github has more users. This doesn't mean that gitlab mirrors nor gitorious are forbidden. GNOME has always been a do-ocracy. The one who does the work has the final word, so I'm pretty sure anyone wanting to help mirror on gitlab or gitorious is welcome. Gitlab and gitorious people who strive to keep using only free software are still able to contribute using a GNOME account, bugzilla and the GNOME repositories. Nothing changes for them. Please keep in mind that here only *more* choices are given to people, not *less*. That's all about sharing. Maybe GitHub will help more people contribute, but I don't see why it's so important. I prefer to have 3 developers who care, than to have 5 who don't care. If I didn't mind to use GitHub, I could as well not mind using Windows. GitHub is proprietary, just like Windows. Do you dismiss a Linux user that uses Skype ? Would you prefer a Windows user that uses Firefox ? For me they are both free software users, event if not using 100% free software. I personally prefer that people use what they want. They should be able to decide if free software is a good thing for them. Free software is good, but it should be praised for being better than the competition *and* free, not just for being free. I don't dismiss anyone. I just examine things from the point-of-view of a developer who believes in software freedom, and hopes other developers here believe in it too. Because of the importance of freedom, not because it saves money. I agree people should decide what they think about free software. That's why it's important official GitHub mirroring is not done without giving maintainers a unique switch for their module, to control whether it's mirrored or not. Free software doesn't have to be better than the competition: Libreoffice lacks some MS Office features, and still many people use it. Same for many other projects. Personally, I use free software that crashes, instead of a proprietary alternative, just because it's free software. Software freedom is important to me, very much. That's why I ask one little thing: If you want to make the GitHub mirroring official for the Gnome project's modules, allow maintainers to turn it on/off easily. That's all. If people as why some modules turn it off, you can say GitHub is proprietary after all, in contradiction to our goals of spreading software freedom and they'll understand. Is it a legitimate request to have such a switch for maintainers? If you're producing free software, you don't control where it ends. If you use a licence that forbids some uses (nuclear plants, weapons), then it's not free software anymore. The same applies here. Your code could end up on github anyway (or even already is), and you would have no mean to prevent this, because that's how free software works. So why use so much stop energy for that? Better work on having mirrors on gitorious and gitlab too. The turning on/off should IMHO be about each maintainer being allowed to enable/disable pull requests. When disabled, we should make it clear for contributors on the clones that the maintainer won't care about looking at the contributions there, and point them out to bugzilla and the GNOME repositories. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
Hey, 2013/8/15 Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se: If you are using GMail (a proprietary web application) for your GNOME work, and then turn around and start objecting to the use of GitHub as another / secondary distribution channel for our code, then, yes, I do find it insincere. Running your own email infrastructure is much much more easier than replicating GitHub with free software. If you don't even care about the easy things, then who are you to hold others to even higher standards? In my opinion, there's a big difference between someone's personal use of a non-free service, and GNOME as an entity (which is supposed to develop and promote free software) promoting a non-free service. This is what the GNOME's official GitHub mirror tagline makes it sound like. Christophe PS: Yes, I'm sending this from a GMail account, no I don't think this is good, and if you ask me I'm not going to recommend using Google services. I'm also slowly moving off from GMail. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 18:00 +0200, Christophe Fergeau wrote: 2013/8/15 Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se: If you are using GMail (a proprietary web application) for your GNOME work, and then turn around and start objecting to the use of GitHub as another / secondary distribution channel for our code, then, yes, I do find it insincere. Running your own email infrastructure is much much more easier than replicating GitHub with free software. If you don't even care about the easy things, then who are you to hold others to even higher standards? In my opinion, there's a big difference between someone's personal use of a non-free service, and GNOME as an entity (which is supposed to develop and promote free software) promoting a non-free service. This is what the GNOME's official GitHub mirror tagline makes it sound like. Maybe the wording has not been the best and I agree that the tagline might sound like an endorsement, whereas it should not be. Maybe we would need to make it clear. Nevertheless, I believe there is more than this. In the past, somebody made a mirror of GNOME repositories in GitHub. IIRC, way before Alberto mentioned for the first time some months or years ago. The problems with that mirror were: * It was outdated * There were people forking some of those repositories * It was not controlled by us This problem might happen with any mirror, but GitHub is too popular to ignore it. We might want to have control and let people know about it. If there were more mirrors in GitHub, at least the one called GNOME is from GNOME and it is updated. We could add information to let people know that the one there is only a mirror, the fun stuff is happening in gnome.org and educate them about Free Software. -- Germán Poo-Caamaño http://calcifer.org/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. In connection with GNOME, please say free/libre, not open source. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation of the difference between free software and open source. See also http://thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_hustler for Evgeny Morozov's article on the same point. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: [ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. In connection with GNOME, please say free/libre, not open source. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation of the difference between free software and open source. We're aware of the distinction between open source software and free/libre software. GitHub, the organization in question, is associated with the open source community and all its libraries are licensed under the non-copyleft 2-clause BSD license. See also http://thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_hustler for Evgeny Morozov's article on the same point. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 11:03 +0200, Alberto Ruiz wrote: I've been working with the GitHub guys and Andrea Veri on setting up a mirror for all GNOME repos in GitHub. This is great news! It should make it easier for people to keep independent/experimental branches of Gnome modules and have a place to collaborate. There's no intention to support pull requests or to depend in any way in this service, this is just a nice-to-have to serve the GitHub's community and user base. There is an API to probe pull requests, and it is described at http://developer.github.com/v3/pulls/ I don't know if there's an RSS feed or something for pull requests. But either with that or with the API, someone could do a weekend hack to notify module maintainers of pull requests, maybe. In any case, having the mirror is great news. Thanks for all the work to make it happen :) Federico ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
On Thu, 2013-08-15 at 13:54 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: [ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. We should pick our fights, on the other hand, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. In connection with GNOME, please say free/libre, not open source. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation of the difference between free software and open source. See also http://thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_hustler for Evgeny Morozov's article on the same point. Richard, is this an automated email reply? Because from the context of the discussion I was expecting a more thoughtful intervention than this one. :) Claudio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. We're aware of the distinction between open source software and free/libre software. GitHub, the organization in question, is associated with the open source community The issue is where we stand, not where they stand. Someone wrote, GitHub has released more open source code and tools than the gitorious community. GNOME is part of the free software movement, so we should say free software, not open source. If we judge organizations by the software development, we should judge by what free software they release, not what open source software they release. The developers of GitHub are free to think and say whatever they wish, but GNOME should not take them as a guide. and all its libraries are licensed under the non-copyleft 2-clause BSD license. That's a non-sequitur; it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I've encountered many people who believe that lax permissive licenses are open source and that 'free software refers to copyleft licenses only. However, neither of those is true. In fact, the lax permissive licenses are free and the GPL is free. See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html. And both of them are open source, too. Thus, the choice of license, between permissive license and copyleft, is orthogonal to the philosophical choice of values, between free software and open source. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for explanation of these points and many others. There are some licenses which are open source but not free. They are _too restrictive_ to be free. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Announcing GNOME's official GitHub mirror
[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. Is it advisable to use nonfree GitHub as a secondary mirror for GNOME's free software? When you say that GitHub is nonfree, what do you mean by that? We do not have any definition for calling a service free or nonfree. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
