Re: on "meritocracy"

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:52 PM Joan Touzet  wrote:

> "Wade Chandler"  wrote:
> > On one hand an organization “can” actively keep
> > people out based on personal attributes; intentional negative & bad;
> > don’t see this here; if you do, please give direct links; most will
> > certainly see that the same.
>
> > On another it “can” actively try to
> > attract more diversity; intentional positive; not sure I see this at
> > Apache.
>


> On another it “can” try to attract people who contribute,
> > and within that not have a bias related to any attribute of a person
> > other than they contribute; I see a lot of this at Apache; not bad
> > (evil), also good, not intentionally attracting diversity, but the
> > part that should be kept in mind is it is also good; not seeing this
> > as something to change as something that can be complemented.


Joan said so much, so much better than I could. But I want to emphasize
that this is a false trichotomy.

There are other ways that institutions reproduce their existing structure
and makeup. You may not find explicit discriminatory statements to call
out, especially not when those in power are self-aware. What you may find
is that there is systemic lenience applied to some candidates, for example
males (to the extent a PMC can discern), while stricter interpretations
applied to others. It is analogous to Joan's example of the value of
learning to listen and not speak in a meeting; quite hard to provide data
based on respectful silence. I am not an expert on the history of
discrimination but I expect this is boringly standard to any historian in
the area. I just wanted to mention one example of how it is not so simple.

An approach that seems promising (again - I'm not a historian or an
experienced activist) for counteracting the ease of disguising
discriminatory behavior is in your second paragraph - to explicitly
wholeheartedly embrace anti-discriminatory policies to welcome and protect
those less powerful / less favored. I think I will go watch Joan's
ApacheCon presentation for ideas. The only question in my mind is what an
effective implementation looks like..

Kenn


>
> Precisely the point. I'm in favour of this, though I know others are
> actively against it. I talked about this at length during my
> ApacheCon 2018 talk, proposing options that are well thought-out and
> fair, drawing from a wide variety of sources; I encourage you to
> listen to the full recording and read my slides before passing
> judgement.
>
> This effort can be engaged on a project-by-project basis, by the way.
> It doesn't need consent from people on this list.
>
>
> And it's obvious to me, at least, that just doing this has been
> insufficient. We need to cast our net wider. Rich said earlier in this
> thread:
>
> > Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE MONTH, there is at least one (and usually
> > several) response to a project report, encouraging them to more actively
> > pursue new committers, lower their bar to entry, actively mentor new
> > contributors, and so on.
>
> So yes, there is clearly a stated desire to improve, from the board
> level down.
>
> > Given you previously mentioned companies and performance reviews etc;
> > I will suggest part of the problem in those contexts are those
> > reviews are often measuring the wrong things, and not measuring the
> > drivers of the hierarchy of work in which most workers actually
> > exist within an organization; they please the street though.
>
> To me, this reads as you saying "We're promoting women and minorities
> just because they look good for our D numbers, not because they have
> the skillsets required." Was that what you really intended to say?
> If so that's borderline offensive, but as you say, irrelevant to
> our situation at Apache - so why bring it up? I'm trying to assume
> good faith on your part, but finding it hard to do so.
>
> > Were
> > they measuring the right things, and this odd dichotomy removed, and
> > the right signaling known to all, i.e. good communication of the
> > things that really matter, it would probably help a lot. I don’t
> > think this can be applied to Apache contributors though; it is
> > really clear the thing that matters; software that works and those
> > making that happen within a legal framework; very different than a
> > company and employee relationship and the motivators for it.
>
> On the contrary - we say "Community Over Code" is a core guiding
> principle of the ASF. So if that's the real thing that matters to us,
> and we state it loud and clear on our website, why aren't we deciding
> who gets "merit" based on that clearly and loudly, just as much as
> we care about code contributions?
>
> > Marginalized has a very specific and strong meaning; one of intent.
> > Do you intend to use it per that meaning?
>
> Not to speak for Naomi, but:
>
> It does not have that. Relegation to the margins may be transitive
> in nature, but it can be inadvertent. Learning to stop talking and
> let others who 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

"don’t see this here" - that's the root of the problem.

I was the point of contact for the Code of Conduct for three years. I can 
assure you the problem exists, in some cases in very extreme ways. You might 
not see it (perhaps it's not in your projects) or perhaps you are blind to it 
(that's not an attack on you, I miss it too, I'm part of the problem - white, 
male, English speaking, imperfect).

I can assure you it exists. It's usually dealt with quietly. For the most part, 
people are not intending to be exclusionary. In fact they are, usually, 
offended that someone would see them as being exclusionary, they seek to 
explain that "that's not what I meant, what I meant was..." [TIP: if someone is 
gently pointing out an error they are not judging you they are trying to help 
you see how it is exclusionary, just apologize, thank them and move on]

Then they get angry that it's positive discrimination to "censor" them, "why 
aren't you protecting my right to express an opinion?" is the typical kind of 
response. [TIP: the CoC applies to everyone equally it is designed to guide us 
on how to express our opinion in a way that is inclusive of all]

After a (typically long) conversation explaining how they can make their point 
without being exclusionary they are usually begrudgingly grateful and they can 
be seen trying to modify their behavior. [TIP: it's an awesome feeling when 
someone sees you making an effort and thanks you for it, plus it's good for 
your project!]

As I've posted elsethread I believe that many of us are simply unaware of how 
our social norms are exclusionary. I believe the softly, softly approach to 
helping people realize this is more effective. However, the softly, softly 
approach has the negative side effect of making the issues less visible. In my 
experience this is necessary since many people affected by this are not willing 
to be singled out by publicly calling out people. [TIP: always, gently, call 
out exclusionary behavior you see in F2F meetings - there are very different 
dynamics there and individuals sometimes need to know people are looking out 
for them]

I ask that everyone reading this far take a moment to think the above through. 
It means the issues that cause us to have poor diversity are mostly invisible 
to us. Therefore we assume the problem doesn't exist or isn't as severe as some 
claim. Thus when someone raises concerns we tell them they are wrong, which is 
exclusionary in and of itself. [TIP: always assume the other person has a 
justifiable reason for raising their concern and learn from it. Maybe ask how 
one might help. If you just can't see it, fine, don't engage. For the sake of 
our community don't deny the claim. Assume good intent. If you are right and 
the it's a non-event the thread will die immediately - there is no need to 
refute it]

Wade asks for explicit examples. My experience is that if we point to out an 
explicit example then someone will attempt to justify it (see above) and we end 
up in an argument about misinterpretation and censorship without ever getting 
back to constructive debate from which we can all learn. However, you can look 
at this thread for quite a number of examples.

Another place you can go is the video I shared earlier. There are two points at 
which I cringe at my clumsy efforts to be inclusive at the very time I'm trying 
to talk about D Watch it and see if you can spot them. If you can't then why 
not ask someone in a minority group?  Feel free to post your thoughts here - 
there's problem things I don't see yet. Don't worry about calling me out in 
public. I have no concerns being singled out. I make mistakes like the rest of 
us.
Even in this thread I've made mistakes (and been called out on it privately so 
I can continue to improve).

I'll try to do better. We all need to do better. A good first step is to accept 
that there is a problem and ask how we can contribute to fixing it rather than 
spending time denying it exists.
Ross


From: Wade Chandler 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 8:35 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"


> On Mar 28, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Naomi Slater  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 13:14, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>
>>
>>> but in practice, this isn't true. and our committer demographics
>>> demonstrate this
>>
>> Then those PMCs have a f'ed up definition and measure of merit.
>>
>
> but this is true for all PMCs, and indeed our board. we have dismal
> representation for non men, non white people, etc, etc, across the whole
> organization. so you're saying that our whole organization has a f*ed up
> definition and measure of merit. which is precisely my point. and why I
> started this thread

How would you suggest individuals actually attract diversity in a given 
cultural context? Software development is inherently a cultural context. Thus, 
Apache is a sub-context of that. So, in this specific context. On one hand an 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Joan Touzet]

"Wade Chandler"  wrote:
> On one hand an organization “can” actively keep
> people out based on personal attributes; intentional negative & bad;
> don’t see this here; if you do, please give direct links; most will
> certainly see that the same.

Naming and shaming in a public forum isn't a good idea.

Situations where there have been individuals who were actively working
against inclusion have, in my experience, been dealt with on a need-to-
know basis. And yes, it has happened here at Apache.

> On another it “can” actively try to
> attract more diversity; intentional positive; not sure I see this at
> Apache.

Precisely the point. I'm in favour of this, though I know others are
actively against it. I talked about this at length during my
ApacheCon 2018 talk, proposing options that are well thought-out and
fair, drawing from a wide variety of sources; I encourage you to
listen to the full recording and read my slides before passing
judgement.

This effort can be engaged on a project-by-project basis, by the way.
It doesn't need consent from people on this list.

> On another it “can” try to attract people who contribute,
> and within that not have a bias related to any attribute of a person
> other than they contribute; I see a lot of this at Apache; not bad
> (evil), also good, not intentionally attracting diversity, but the
> part that should be kept in mind is it is also good; not seeing this
> as something to change as something that can be complemented.

And it's obvious to me, at least, that just doing this has been
insufficient. We need to cast our net wider. Rich said earlier in this
thread:

> Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE MONTH, there is at least one (and usually 
> several) response to a project report, encouraging them to more actively 
> pursue new committers, lower their bar to entry, actively mentor new 
> contributors, and so on.

So yes, there is clearly a stated desire to improve, from the board
level down.

> Given you previously mentioned companies and performance reviews etc;
> I will suggest part of the problem in those contexts are those
> reviews are often measuring the wrong things, and not measuring the
> drivers of the hierarchy of work in which most workers actually
> exist within an organization; they please the street though.

To me, this reads as you saying "We're promoting women and minorities
just because they look good for our D numbers, not because they have
the skillsets required." Was that what you really intended to say?
If so that's borderline offensive, but as you say, irrelevant to
our situation at Apache - so why bring it up? I'm trying to assume
good faith on your part, but finding it hard to do so.

> Were
> they measuring the right things, and this odd dichotomy removed, and
> the right signaling known to all, i.e. good communication of the
> things that really matter, it would probably help a lot. I don’t
> think this can be applied to Apache contributors though; it is
> really clear the thing that matters; software that works and those
> making that happen within a legal framework; very different than a
> company and employee relationship and the motivators for it.

On the contrary - we say "Community Over Code" is a core guiding 
principle of the ASF. So if that's the real thing that matters to us,
and we state it loud and clear on our website, why aren't we deciding
who gets "merit" based on that clearly and loudly, just as much as
we care about code contributions?

> Marginalized has a very specific and strong meaning; one of intent.
> Do you intend to use it per that meaning?

Not to speak for Naomi, but:

It does not have that. Relegation to the margins may be transitive
in nature, but it can be inadvertent. Learning to stop talking and
let others who may not talk as often is an important skill in meetings,
as is asking those who rarely speak to speak up another in encouraging
good team development. To find yourself edged out, unheard or ignored
is a common enough situation for people "at the margins." It doesn't
necessarily refer to active maliciousness on the part of the
marginaliser (though it can).

I'm not going to go into detail, but reading up on the topic of
inherent biases in cultural norms might provide some background here.

> If not, then what should be the
> measure of reward for one to become a “committer” to a code base? It
> is something that needs care and feeding, and in many cases, has
> many dependencies throughout the world, and that’s a big deal.

Again, not all contributions are code, and not everyone who gains merit
does so through writing it. Some really great people here at Apache
don't write code, have tons of merit, and just happen to be women and
minorities. Your choice of words above indicates you wouldn't consider
these people to be worthy of consideration - was *that* intentional?

> Similar to a company, requiring care and feeding, which regardless of
> anything else, would not hire someone with the wrong skillset nor
> 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Wade Chandler]

> On Mar 28, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Naomi Slater  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 13:14, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> but in practice, this isn't true. and our committer demographics
>>> demonstrate this
>> 
>> Then those PMCs have a f'ed up definition and measure of merit.
>> 
> 
> but this is true for all PMCs, and indeed our board. we have dismal
> representation for non men, non white people, etc, etc, across the whole
> organization. so you're saying that our whole organization has a f*ed up
> definition and measure of merit. which is precisely my point. and why I
> started this thread

How would you suggest individuals actually attract diversity in a given 
cultural context? Software development is inherently a cultural context. Thus, 
Apache is a sub-context of that. So, in this specific context. On one hand an 
organization “can” actively keep people out based on personal attributes; 
intentional negative & bad; don’t see this here; if you do, please give direct 
links; most will certainly see that the same. On another it “can” actively try 
to attract more diversity; intentional positive; not sure I see this at Apache. 
On another it “can” try to attract people who contribute, and within that not 
have a bias related to any attribute of a person other than they contribute; I 
see a lot of this at Apache; not bad (evil), also good, not intentionally 
attracting diversity, but the part that should be kept in mind is it is also 
good; not seeing this as something to change as something that can be 
complemented.

Given you previously mentioned companies and performance reviews etc; I will 
suggest part of the problem in those contexts are those reviews are often 
measuring the wrong things, and not measuring the drivers of the hierarchy of 
work in which most workers actually exist within an organization; they please 
the street though. Were they measuring the right things, and this odd dichotomy 
removed, and the right signaling known to all, i.e. good communication of the 
things that really matter, it would probably help a lot. I don’t think this can 
be applied to Apache contributors though; it is really clear the thing that 
matters; software that works and those making that happen within a legal 
framework; very different than a company and employee relationship and the 
motivators for it.

> 
> FWIW, I disagree, wholeheartedly, with the phrase:
>> 
>>  the already privileged SUCK at determining who deserves
>>  "recognition of merit"
>> 
>> I think that is self-serving and a gross and crass generalization
>> that does not help in uniting anyone.
>> 
> 
> self-serving how? if you mean it serves the interests of women and other
> marginalized people at this organization, then yes, that is also precisely
> my point. this is what we should be doing
> 

Marginalized has a very specific and strong meaning; one of intent. Do you 
intend to use it per that meaning?

Merit as applied in “The Apache Way” rewards those who do work; it serves those 
who do work. Do you agree with this in principle as a baseline? I find that to 
be a clear read, and in practice is what I’ve seen for Apache projects. If not, 
then what should be the measure of reward for one to become a “committer” to a 
code base? It is something that needs care and feeding, and in many cases, has 
many dependencies throughout the world, and that’s a big deal.

Similar to a company, requiring care and feeding, which regardless of anything 
else, would not hire someone with the wrong skillset nor record of the right 
skillset be it experience or a degree. A university, needing the same, as do 
its students, would not hire a high school burger flipper as a professor 
either, regardless of demographics and needs; it would not be prudent. These 
are examples of rewarding applicants of merit without them first having done 
anything for the particular organization.

It seems clear Apache has this same principal, and takes it further to protect 
the software we all collectively use and depend on; Apache vets more thoroughly 
by way of actual contributions versus credentials; in this context I’ve not 
seen abuse of individuals based on anything other than their commitments to a 
given code base. I don’t know anyone (“virtually" for most) I’ve met at Apache 
who wears their personal attributes as a badge either, and I say this to 
suggest it is difficult for me at least to gauge ones physical attributes by 
those things which I can measure about them in this context; mostly emails, 
patches, and commits.

> it's uncomfortable to confront this fact. but it must be confronted. and
> appeals to "uniting people" (i.e. don't upset people or make them confront
> their biases or failures) is counter-productive and it won't have any sway
> with me

Sway? Isn’t that what you are attempting to do though? How about facts. If 
there is evidence to support what I’m reading as a strong statement, then it 
should exist. The numbers of people of a given N or 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

I'll expand a little on "simple infra request" as I'm not sure if Griselda 
knows how to make the simple request.

Short version open a ticket against INFRA at 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/Dashboard.jspa

Longer answer: https://www.apache.org/dev/infra-contact


From: Sam Ruby 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 5:38 PM
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:25 PM Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition.
>
> I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new
> one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to
> create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it
> and give me admin access?

No private JIRA.  Needs to be ASF hosted.  It is a simple request to
the infra team, and yes, you can have admin access.

> I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with
> components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who
> indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute.
>
> In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel?

Slack channels tend to disadvantage people who can't be available at a
given time (either due to other commitments or time zones).  We use it
in infra for time sensitive coordination, but my sense is that the D
work should be done in a more... dare I say it... inclusive manner
using mailing lists and JIRA and the like.

> // I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great
> points for us to put into an overall D strategy
>
> Thanks everyone!

And you deserve thanks for volunteering!

- Sam Ruby

> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>
> > I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal,
> > which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin!
> >
> > I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of
> > the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for
> > redundancy with the links that Justin shared.
> >
> > 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct
> > a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation
> >
> > 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders
> > a. have a D board to advance initiatives surrounding D
> > b. and a D contribution team to help underrepresented people
> > contribute to the Drupal codebase
> > c. address D in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits
> > from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and
> > inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our
> > workplaces”
> >
> > 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I
> > think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base)
> >
> > 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity
> > a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is
> > not afforded to underrepresented people
> > b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source
> > technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to
> > the projects the company uses
> >
> > It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal
> > D board and also the Drupal D contribution team.
> >
> > Kenn
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other
> > > foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked
> > for
> > > them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it
> > > includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d
> > > also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct)
> > but
> > > perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal
> > Diversity &
> > > Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other
> > > things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is
> > > different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be
> > > useful I think to at least consider them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Justin
> > >
> > > 1.
> > >
> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fangel.co%2Fblog%2Fdrupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-communitydata=02%7C01%7C%7C4983c9df1c4a4894037708d6b4a81089%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895031250123703sdata=zpG2DWLo5LjGZbiJ%2F7Wjjo5gOxwh%2BK4mjAdUY9bIHiU%3Dreserved=0
> > > 2.
> > >
> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.drupal.org%2Fdocs%2F8%2Fmodules%2Fdrupal-diversity-inclusion%2Fstatement-of-valuesdata=02%7C01%7C%7C4983c9df1c4a4894037708d6b4a81089%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895031250123703sdata=mEeVsuD9TOxNsB0wNjOAMNPfWSIltXKcf2U%2BlO1yKVU%3Dreserved=0
> > > 3.
> > >
> > 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Sam Ruby]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:25 PM Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition.
>
> I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new
> one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to
> create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it
> and give me admin access?

No private JIRA.  Needs to be ASF hosted.  It is a simple request to
the infra team, and yes, you can have admin access.

> I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with
> components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who
> indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute.
>
> In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel?

Slack channels tend to disadvantage people who can't be available at a
given time (either due to other commitments or time zones).  We use it
in infra for time sensitive coordination, but my sense is that the D
work should be done in a more... dare I say it... inclusive manner
using mailing lists and JIRA and the like.

> // I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great
> points for us to put into an overall D strategy
>
> Thanks everyone!

And you deserve thanks for volunteering!

- Sam Ruby

> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>
> > I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal,
> > which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin!
> >
> > I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of
> > the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for
> > redundancy with the links that Justin shared.
> >
> > 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct
> > a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation
> >
> > 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders
> > a. have a D board to advance initiatives surrounding D
> > b. and a D contribution team to help underrepresented people
> > contribute to the Drupal codebase
> > c. address D in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits
> > from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and
> > inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our
> > workplaces”
> >
> > 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I
> > think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base)
> >
> > 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity
> > a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is
> > not afforded to underrepresented people
> > b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source
> > technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to
> > the projects the company uses
> >
> > It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal
> > D board and also the Drupal D contribution team.
> >
> > Kenn
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other
> > > foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked
> > for
> > > them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it
> > > includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d
> > > also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct)
> > but
> > > perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal
> > Diversity &
> > > Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other
> > > things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is
> > > different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be
> > > useful I think to at least consider them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Justin
> > >
> > > 1.
> > >
> > https://angel.co/blog/drupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-community
> > > 2.
> > >
> > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/statement-of-values
> > > 3.
> > >
> > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/drupal-diversity-inclusion-participation-moderation-1
> > > 4.
> > >
> > https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/participation-moderation-guidelines/participant-guidelines
> > > 5. https://www.drupal.org/project/diversity
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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> > >
> > >
> >

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Griselda Cuevas]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition.

I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new
one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to
create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it
and give me admin access?

I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with
components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who
indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute.

In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel?

// I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great
points for us to put into an overall D strategy

Thanks everyone!


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:

> I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal,
> which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin!
>
> I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of
> the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for
> redundancy with the links that Justin shared.
>
> 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct
> a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation
>
> 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders
> a. have a D board to advance initiatives surrounding D
> b. and a D contribution team to help underrepresented people
> contribute to the Drupal codebase
> c. address D in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits
> from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and
> inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our
> workplaces”
>
> 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I
> think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base)
>
> 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity
> a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is
> not afforded to underrepresented people
> b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source
> technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to
> the projects the company uses
>
> It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal
> D board and also the Drupal D contribution team.
>
> Kenn
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other
> > foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked
> for
> > them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it
> > includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d
> > also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct)
> but
> > perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal
> Diversity &
> > Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other
> > things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is
> > different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be
> > useful I think to at least consider them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
> >
> > 1.
> >
> https://angel.co/blog/drupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-community
> > 2.
> >
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/statement-of-values
> > 3.
> >
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/drupal-diversity-inclusion-participation-moderation-1
> > 4.
> >
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/participation-moderation-guidelines/participant-guidelines
> > 5. https://www.drupal.org/project/diversity
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Continuing conversation on Apache Swag

[Griselda Cuevas]

Hi ComDev & Sharan,

As per our last convo

[1]
on an Apache swag, we mentioned that we'd discuss a solution for a possible
Apache Swag Store. I'd like to follow up on that and make an introduction
for Joana Carrasqueira (who does swag for Google) and Sharan Foga (who
manages the Apache swag). It'd be helpful if you two connect and continue
this convo and evaluate if this is feasible.

In another note, we're interested in producing some swag for Apache Beam
and Apache Airflow, and we'd like to know how to do it well, i.e. how to
not violate trademark guidelines in terms of logo usage, name, etc. Who
would help us with that?

I believe that having a central store will streamline how projects produce
their swag and comply with trademark guidelines.

Thanks & Happy Friday.


[1]
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5e66494f132b87a9ebd54be7189edaa13dbb8c02e49023bdd5f52ecd@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Kenneth Knowles]

I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal,
which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin!

I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of
the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for
redundancy with the links that Justin shared.

1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct
a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation

2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders
a. have a D board to advance initiatives surrounding D
b. and a D contribution team to help underrepresented people
contribute to the Drupal codebase
c. address D in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits
from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and
inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our
workplaces”

3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I
think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base)

4. How private companies can promote open source diversity
a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is
not afforded to underrepresented people
b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source
technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to
the projects the company uses

It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal
D board and also the Drupal D contribution team.

Kenn

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other
> foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked for
> them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it
> includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d
> also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct) but
> perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal Diversity &
> Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other
> things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is
> different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be
> useful I think to at least consider them.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1.
> https://angel.co/blog/drupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-community
> 2.
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/statement-of-values
> 3.
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/drupal-diversity-inclusion-participation-moderation-1
> 4.
> https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/participation-moderation-guidelines/participant-guidelines
> 5. https://www.drupal.org/project/diversity
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>
>

Re: Google Season of Docs 2019

[Kenneth Knowles]

Is this taken care of? Did ASF apply? Is there anything more that I could
help with at all? I would also be happy to review anything.

Kenn

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 3:14 AM Sharan Foga  wrote:

> Hi Dinesh
>
> It's great to hear that the Apache Cassandra community is keen to be
> involved with this. I confirm that I will put an application on behalf of
> the ASF.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> On 2019/03/22 07:24:20, Dinesh Joshi 
> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am coordinating the GSoD effort in the Apache Cassandra community. We
> already have a few volunteers willing to help mentor the tech writer. Who
> can confirm whether ASF is applying as an organization? We will not apply
> separately.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dinesh
> >
> > > On Mar 19, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Sharan,
> > >
> > > I'm happy to help with the ASF's application for SoD, if you need any
> > > support there.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Aizhamal
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:25 PM Sharan Foga  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> ComDev currently manages the ASF applications for GSoC so it might
> make
> > >> sense for us to centralise the application for this too.
> > >>
> > >> We would need 2 people to manage the ASF organisation application as a
> > >> mentor organisation as well as administer the projects and mentors.
> > >>
> > >> If selected then each project participating would need to guarantee at
> > >> least 2 mentors to work with the technical writer.  We currently
> collect
> > >> the GSoC ideas via a JIra so perhaps that could be adapted for GSoD
> too,
> > >>
> > >> The timeline is tight - I think 2nd April is when applications open.
> It
> > >> already sounds like the level of interest is high so we need to act
> quickly
> > >> if we want to participate.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >> Sharan
> > >>
> > >> On 2019/03/12 18:14:54, Dave Fisher  wrote:
> > >>> Hi -
> > >>>
> > >>> Looks pretty cool.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cc: to Apache Community Development.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Dave
> > >>>
> > >>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>
> >  On Mar 12, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Huxing Zhang 
> wrote:
> > 
> >  Hi,
> > 
> >  Google Season of Docs 2019[1] seems to be an interesting project,
> >  which bring open source project and technical writer communities
> >  together, just Like Google summer of code.
> > 
> >  I think the Dubbo can benefit from the project, especially the
> English
> >  version of documentation could be improved.
> > 
> >  How do you think?
> > 
> >  [1] https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
> > 
> >  --
> >  Best Regards！
> >  Huxing
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -
> > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Craig Russell]

Hi Griselda,

I was thinking along similar lines: measuring where we are, setting goals, 
making policy, putting together a team to make it happen. 

I love your enthusiasm and hope we can actually create something great from 
your ideas. Just as we recognized the value in a fund-raising group, it's time 
we had a diversity-raising group.

I agree with Sam that one of the first things to do is to establish a 
communication channel for interested parties to focus on the issue. I don't 
think we need anything more than a request to infra to make that happen.

I do think that D is important enough, and separate enough, from Comdev that 
a new structure is needed. I'd say that one of the first tasks for the group 
will be to recommend what that structure looks like from an organization 
standpoint. Sam has outlined some options that need to be explored.

Craig

> On Mar 29, 2019, at 9:28 AM,Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
> 
> Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
> that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
> stronger.
> 
> Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:
> 
> *Diagnostic*
> 1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
> 2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
> 3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
> points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
> 4) Share results & recommendations w/ community
> 
> *Working towards improvement*
> *I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
> monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
> guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
> personal time to this effort. *
> 1) Curate a list of experts in D
> 2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
> 3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
> 4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
> 5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.
> 
> *Embedding D at the ASF*
> *I want to be part of this. *
> 1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
> 2) Define what structure makes more sense
> 3) Work on formalizing the council
> 4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY
> 
> If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
>>> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>>> 
>>> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.
>> Sometimes I
>>> struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
>> like
>>> I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
>>> start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
>>> offering to lead... so how could I do it?
>> 
>> TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
>> make it happen.
>> 
>> Longer answer:
>> 
>> Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
>> the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
>> president, or it could be something that reports to the board.
>> 
>> The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
>> less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
>> resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
>> the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
>> be in order.
>> 
>> Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
>> at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
>> a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
>> together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
>> those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
>> a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
>> died this way in the past.
>> 
>> Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
>> and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.
>> 
>> Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
>> characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
>> fix that.
>> 
>> So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
>> identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
>> written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
>> production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
>> creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
>> that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
>> and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
>> to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.
>> 
>> Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
>> of band 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other 
foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked for 
them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it 
includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d also 
note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct) but perhaps 
shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal Diversity & Inclusion 
team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other things guide on 
moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is different to Drupal and 
some of those tings may not fit but it would be useful I think to at least 
consider them.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://angel.co/blog/drupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-community
2. 
https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/statement-of-values
3. 
https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/drupal-diversity-inclusion-participation-moderation-1
4. 
https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules/drupal-diversity-inclusion/participation-moderation-guidelines/participant-guidelines
5. https://www.drupal.org/project/diversity
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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Daniel Gruno]

+0.999 (I think this is a great idea, and I'd love to be a part of it, 
contribute with my insights from the various under-represented 
categories I fall into and mistakes I've learned over the past years, 
but unsure how much time I can devote at present).


It will be an interesting journey, and I'm curious to see how we'll 
"sell" it to projects. On one hand, we strive for as much independence 
as possible, on the other hand, we have a set of commonalities and 
governance that fits over - a delicate balancing act.


I haven't spoken up earlier due to travel and getting set up in a new 
country, but...we really suck at this stuff, mainly because we (falsely) 
assume that "no judgment based on X/Y/Z" means leveling the playing 
field, which is not the case. The playing field is *heavily* skewed from 
the get go, and through our inaction we have been maintaining that skew, 
claiming that neutrality will get us where we want. All it gets us is 
stupid virtue signaling and very little towards any of our goals.


While we are vendor neutral, we should not be people neutral, we should 
not be community neutral. Community over Code should mean something, and 
not just be an empty feel-good phrase that looks cool on a tin of mints. 
It should mean more than "we treat everyone as equalif they can just 
get over these 5,000 other hurdles first".


On 29/03/2019 11.28, Griselda Cuevas wrote:

Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
stronger.

Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:

*Diagnostic*
1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
4) Share results & recommendations w/ community

*Working towards improvement*
*I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
personal time to this effort. *
1) Curate a list of experts in D
2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.

*Embedding D at the ASF*
*I want to be part of this. *
1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
2) Define what structure makes more sense
3) Work on formalizing the council
4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY

If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:


On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:


Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.

Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.

Sometimes I

struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel

like

I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
offering to lead... so how could I do it?


TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
make it happen.

Longer answer:

Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
president, or it could be something that reports to the board.

The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
be in order.

Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
died this way in the past.

Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.

Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
fix that.

So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
that this committee needs board 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Kenneth Knowles]

Sign me up as well. I assume there will be some announcement of the mailing
list or jira board here?

Interested in observing where ASF goes on the meritocracy thread,
interested in actively contributing where I can on diversity efforts.

Kenn

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 10:57 Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 6:13 PM Joan Touzet  wrote:
> > ...I think Bertrand here has the
> > lead since he's working on the website refresh
>
> Not really, I helped update a small part of apache.org for the 20th
> anniversary but that's it.
>
> However, if we can come to a consensus about that needs to be modified
> on the website I'm happy to help make the actual changes.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on collaboration in OSS development

[Kevin A. McGrail]

I'm not aware of them asking.

And they hit one of my $dayjob accounts.  I am guessing they
bought/scraped a list from the archives.

Regards,
KAM
On 3/29/2019 12:34 PM, Joan Touzet wrote:
> Did they even ask us to help put them in touch with people?
>
> How did they pick who they were going to email?
>
> Can anyone take point in contacting their IRB and, well, not
> to put a too fine a point on it: ratting them out?
>
> This certainly was done without approval. And I don't know how
> they gathered my email address, but it wasn't legitimately, as
> I didn't opt-in.
>
> -Joan
>
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Kevin A. McGrail" 
>> To: dev@community.apache.org, "Justin Mclean" 
>> Sent: Friday, 29 March, 2019 9:47:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on 
>> collaboration in OSS development
>>
>> Same.  Very frustrating.  These self-serving spams have burned my
>> interest in helping anyone to do legitimate research with our
>> assistance.
>>
>> On 3/29/2019 5:33 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> JFYI - And it look like they may of just spammed a whole lot of
>>> people. I just got an unsolicited email from them.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Justin
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>>>
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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>>
>>
> -
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>

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 6:13 PM Joan Touzet  wrote:
> ...I think Bertrand here has the
> lead since he's working on the website refresh

Not really, I helped update a small part of apache.org for the 20th
anniversary but that's it.

However, if we can come to a consensus about that needs to be modified
on the website I'm happy to help make the actual changes.

-Bertrand

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Naomi Slater]

agreed with Joan

I would like to be a part of the "meritocracy" conversation as it moves
under Bertrand's initiative. where do I sign up for that?

I would also like to contribute to the D work/initiative/committee

Sam said:

"I'm impressed with the detail, and with the speed with which you
provided it."

agreed! indeed, I expect I have a lot to learn from you, Griselda, and
looking forward to it!

On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 18:13, Joan Touzet  wrote:

> > TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
> > make it happen.
>
> In the interest of not losing sight of the meritocracy debate, along
> with the D work (which I'm happy to engage on, someone sign me up),
> we need to actually solve the original "meritocracy" problem. I
> proposed some concrete approaches, and I think Bertrand here has the
> lead since he's working on the website refresh. (Please correct me
> if I'm wrong.)
>
> Suggest we move that messaging point over to Bertrand's group, and
> have the new sub-ComDev D group focus on the latter half of this
> thread.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> -Joan "cuttin' back to basics" Touzet
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Joan Touzet]

> TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
> make it happen.

In the interest of not losing sight of the meritocracy debate, along
with the D work (which I'm happy to engage on, someone sign me up),
we need to actually solve the original "meritocracy" problem. I
proposed some concrete approaches, and I think Bertrand here has the
lead since he's working on the website refresh. (Please correct me
if I'm wrong.)

Suggest we move that messaging point over to Bertrand's group, and
have the new sub-ComDev D group focus on the latter half of this
thread.

Does that make sense?

-Joan "cuttin' back to basics" Touzet

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Sam Ruby]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 12:29 PM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:
>
> Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list
[snip]
> If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.

I'm impressed with the detail, and with the speed with which you
provided it.  And I very much like the idea of a JIRA board.  My
experience is that it is easier to keep discussions on topic in JIRA
than on a mailing list.

If we are going to pursue a President's committee, a post on
operati...@apache.org would be in order.  Included in that post would
be a list of people who have volunteered to date and a call for
volunteers.

It turns out that it is budget time (I actually should have started
the process already), and I realize that it is premature to ask for
hard numbers, but should you have ballpark numbers that we can use as
placeholders in the budget, that would be appreciated.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Dave Fisher]

+0 - as in I support this but don’t have time to do so directly.

I will support any surveys or discussions that might come to the Incubator or 
any of the PMCs of which I’m a member.

Regards,
Dave

> On Mar 29, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
> 
> Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
> that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
> stronger.
> 
> Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:
> 
> *Diagnostic*
> 1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
> 2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
> 3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
> points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
> 4) Share results & recommendations w/ community
> 
> *Working towards improvement*
> *I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
> monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
> guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
> personal time to this effort. *
> 1) Curate a list of experts in D
> 2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
> 3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
> 4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
> 5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.
> 
> *Embedding D at the ASF*
> *I want to be part of this. *
> 1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
> 2) Define what structure makes more sense
> 3) Work on formalizing the council
> 4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY
> 
> If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
>>> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>>> 
>>> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.
>> Sometimes I
>>> struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
>> like
>>> I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
>>> start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
>>> offering to lead... so how could I do it?
>> 
>> TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
>> make it happen.
>> 
>> Longer answer:
>> 
>> Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
>> the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
>> president, or it could be something that reports to the board.
>> 
>> The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
>> less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
>> resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
>> the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
>> be in order.
>> 
>> Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
>> at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
>> a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
>> together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
>> those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
>> a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
>> died this way in the past.
>> 
>> Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
>> and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.
>> 
>> Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
>> characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
>> fix that.
>> 
>> So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
>> identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
>> written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
>> production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
>> creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
>> that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
>> and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
>> to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.
>> 
>> Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
>> of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
>> The schedule is here:
>> 
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt
>> 
>> While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
>> shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
>> to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
>> can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.
>> 
>> - Sam Ruby
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>> 
>> 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[dinesh.jo...@yahoo.com.INVALID]

Hi Griselda,
I'd like to help out on the contributor survey.
Dinesh



On Mar 29, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
stronger.

Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:

*Diagnostic*
1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
4) Share results & recommendations w/ community

*Working towards improvement*
*I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
personal time to this effort. *
1) Curate a list of experts in D
2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.

*Embedding D at the ASF*
*I want to be part of this. *
1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
2) Define what structure makes more sense
3) Work on formalizing the council
4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY

If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:


On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:


Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.

Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.

Sometimes I

struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel

like

I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
offering to lead... so how could I do it?


TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
make it happen.

Longer answer:

Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
president, or it could be something that reports to the board.

The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
be in order.

Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
died this way in the past.

Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.

Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
fix that.

So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.

Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
The schedule is here:

https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt

While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.

- Sam Ruby

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Myrle Krantz]

I'm a +1 for this, and I'd like to help out as well.

Best,
Myrle

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Griselda Cuevas 
wrote:

> Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
> that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
> stronger.
>
> Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:
>
> *Diagnostic*
> 1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
> 2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
> 3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
> points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
> 4) Share results & recommendations w/ community
>
> *Working towards improvement*
> *I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
> monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
> guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
> personal time to this effort. *
> 1) Curate a list of experts in D
> 2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
> 3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
> 4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
> 5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.
>
> *Embedding D at the ASF*
> *I want to be part of this. *
> 1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
> 2) Define what structure makes more sense
> 3) Work on formalizing the council
> 4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY
>
> If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC,
> working
> > > group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
> > >
> > > Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.
> > Sometimes I
> > > struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
> > like
> > > I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when
> they
> > > start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> > > offering to lead... so how could I do it?
> >
> > TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
> > make it happen.
> >
> > Longer answer:
> >
> > Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
> > the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
> > president, or it could be something that reports to the board.
> >
> > The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
> > less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
> > resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
> > the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
> > be in order.
> >
> > Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
> > at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
> > a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
> > together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
> > those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
> > a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
> > died this way in the past.
> >
> > Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
> > and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.
> >
> > Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
> > characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
> > fix that.
> >
> > So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
> > identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
> > written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
> > production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
> > creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
> > that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
> > and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
> > to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.
> >
> > Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
> > of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
> > The schedule is here:
> >
> > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt
> >
> > While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
> > shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
> > to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
> > can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy]

If you need volunteers, please count me in as well.

Thanks,
Aizhamal

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:33 AM Ross Gardler  wrote:

> I'm in
>
> Get Outlook for Android
>
> 
> From: Sam Ruby 
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:07:59 AM
> To: Apache Community Dev
> Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
>  wrote:
> >
> > Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> > group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
> >
> > Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.
> Sometimes I
> > struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
> like
> > I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
> > start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> > offering to lead... so how could I do it?
>
> TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
> make it happen.
>
> Longer answer:
>
> Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
> the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
> president, or it could be something that reports to the board.
>
> The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
> less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
> resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
> the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
> be in order.
>
> Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
> at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
> a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
> together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
> those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
> a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
> died this way in the past.
>
> Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
> and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.
>
> Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
> characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
> fix that.
>
> So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
> identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
> written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
> production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
> creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
> that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
> and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
> to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.
>
> Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
> of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
> The schedule is here:
>
>
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsvn.apache.org%2Frepos%2Fprivate%2Fcommitters%2Fboard%2Fcalendar.txtdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6df6d7c6edd6470db09808d6b460c3d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636894725021001648sdata=TWlEfYaE1iNFNghHa3IJwZMvew%2B3FfqWVsVlFxQK6%2FA%3Dreserved=0
>
> While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
> shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
> to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
> can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

-- 

*Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy*

Open Source Program Manager

646-355-9740 Mobile

601 North 34th Street, Seattle, WA 98103

Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on collaboration in OSS development

[Joan Touzet]

Did they even ask us to help put them in touch with people?

How did they pick who they were going to email?

Can anyone take point in contacting their IRB and, well, not
to put a too fine a point on it: ratting them out?

This certainly was done without approval. And I don't know how
they gathered my email address, but it wasn't legitimately, as
I didn't opt-in.

-Joan

- Original Message -
> From: "Kevin A. McGrail" 
> To: dev@community.apache.org, "Justin Mclean" 
> Sent: Friday, 29 March, 2019 9:47:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on 
> collaboration in OSS development
> 
> Same.  Very frustrating.  These self-serving spams have burned my
> interest in helping anyone to do legitimate research with our
> assistance.
> 
> On 3/29/2019 5:33 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > JFYI - And it look like they may of just spammed a whole lot of
> > people. I just got an unsolicited email from them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
> 
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

I'm in

Get Outlook for Android


From: Sam Ruby 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:07:59 AM
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:
>
> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>
> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes I
> struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel like
> I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
> start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> offering to lead... so how could I do it?

TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
make it happen.

Longer answer:

Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
president, or it could be something that reports to the board.

The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
be in order.

Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
died this way in the past.

Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.

Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
fix that.

So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.

Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
The schedule is here:

https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsvn.apache.org%2Frepos%2Fprivate%2Fcommitters%2Fboard%2Fcalendar.txtdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6df6d7c6edd6470db09808d6b460c3d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636894725021001648sdata=TWlEfYaE1iNFNghHa3IJwZMvew%2B3FfqWVsVlFxQK6%2FA%3Dreserved=0

While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.

- Sam Ruby

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Griselda Cuevas]

Yes! This is exciting. I'd like to be part of the mailing list, and I agree
that when there's a product encoded in the efforts. the cadence become
stronger.

Here's my proposed list of deliverables by work stream:

*Diagnostic*
1) Revamp the 2016 contributor survey
2) Launch 2019 Survey (I can do this)
3) Analyze results and identify actionable next steps (based in pain
points, strengths, opportunity areas, etc.)
4) Share results & recommendations w/ community

*Working towards improvement*
*I can own this work stream and I need more volunteers, I commit to give
monthly reports. D in OSS is part of my day-to-day job, so that's a
guarantee I'll deliver on it. I also love the topic so I can also dedicate
personal time to this effort. *
1) Curate a list of experts in D
2) Evaluate possible vendors and select the best fit
3) Outline statement of work (define project req.)
4) Hire vendor (Due diligence by the ASF)
5) Kick-off consulting work, focused on findings from survey.

*Embedding D at the ASF*
*I want to be part of this. *
1) Define purpose, values and objectives for a D council
2) Define what structure makes more sense
3) Work on formalizing the council
4) Make the survey the measurement for council's impact YoY

If you like it, I'm happy to create a Jira board to track efforts.


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 09:08, Sam Ruby  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
>  wrote:
> >
> > Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> > group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
> >
> > Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list.
> Sometimes I
> > struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
> like
> > I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
> > start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> > offering to lead... so how could I do it?
>
> TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
> make it happen.
>
> Longer answer:
>
> Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
> the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
> president, or it could be something that reports to the board.
>
> The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
> less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
> resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
> the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
> be in order.
>
> Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
> at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
> a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
> together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
> those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
> a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
> died this way in the past.
>
> Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
> and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.
>
> Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
> characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
> fix that.
>
> So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
> identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
> written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
> production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
> creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
> that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
> and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
> to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.
>
> Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
> of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
> The schedule is here:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt
>
> While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
> shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
> to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
> can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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>
>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Sam Ruby]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:
>
> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>
> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes I
> struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel like
> I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
> start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> offering to lead... so how could I do it?

TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
make it happen.

Longer answer:

Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
president, or it could be something that reports to the board.

The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
be in order.

Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
died this way in the past.

Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.

Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
fix that.

So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.

Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
The schedule is here:

https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/calendar.txt

While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

Apologies. At least the first sentence, and first half of the second is true. 
Catching up on a long thread and obviously being lost in who said what.

Back to the main point of the thread :

We should be aware that human nature means we recognize and reward behavior 
that looks like our own behavior. This results in a reinforcement of the status 
quo. It doesn't change things.

We should not be accepting damaging behavior.

We should be calling out mistakes, preferably privately as people don't usually 
mean harm. If we are called out we should consider if it's appropriate, 
apologize and move on. Most importantly we should seek to change that behavior.

As someone who is least affected by this issue I know how hard it is to change 
a behavior that my society has accepted for all of my privileged life. Beating 
people up for who they are is not how we make a difference. I, and others like 
me, did not choose to be white, male and English speaking. However, we can 
choose to be aware of the privilege this brings us. We must seek to break the 
behaviors of a lifetime.

Recognizing the effort in others to learn and adapt, even if imperfect, is how 
we make a difference.

I know from personal experience that this leads to positive action (as opposed 
to talk). Thesr people (and certainly I) will make mistakes, but it doesn't 
mean they are a part of the problem by choice.

Help them learn. Help them adapt.

Ross


Get Outlook for Android



From: Rich Bowen
Sent: Friday, March 29, 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"
To: dev@community.apache.org




On 3/28/19 11:28 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully support your 
> goals, but I do worry that demanding the foundation "police" these things by 
> forcing people to behave in a way you find acceptable is counter-productive.


FWIW, Pierre used the term "policing".

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Griselda Cuevas]

Oh I forgot to mention that I just concluded a research on user personas &
journeys for potential OSS contributors. The objective was to identify the
information needs *they* have and what are the characteristics of effective
documentation that would entice them to cross the chasm and actually become
contributors.

One of the factors that prevents people to contribute is FEAR, fear to make
mistakes, not being welcome, not being supported and vulnerability in
sharing their work with the world.

I think this might support Naomis original points.

I'll be sharing insights once my team and our research vendor finalize
synthesis. The content and results will be public and available for all to
use.

Now that I think of... we could work with this vendor for further research.


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 08:37, Griselda Cuevas  wrote:

>
> I'd like to help with the research. I could help to:
>
> a) Identify a consultant to work on this, and
>
> b) lead the research representing the ASF.
>
>
> Here are my credentials:
>
>
> I'm a latin woman, working actively on bringing awareness of Open Source
> to Latin America. I'm planning a conference for 1000 tech practitioners
> (not only CS graduates) in Mexico to talk about how to contribute to Open
> Source. I'm addressing topics such as impostor syndrome, language barriers
> and remote collaboration. I'm also discussing legal matters and
> volunteering as a way to uplevel your career and CV. We're at the same time
> talking to the industry leaders to encourage employees to contribute back
> to OSS. These efforts are part of the Product Inclusion council for Latin
> American users at Google.
>
>
> Additionally, in the past, I've done research for Google on fair reward
> systems for what is now our Product Expert programs. The research included
> qualitative and quantitative analysis of people who spoke 20 different
> languages. Our objective was to develop a program and an on boarding
> experience that would grow our community of experts.
>
>
> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>
>
> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes
> I struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel
> like I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when
> they start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time
> I'm offering to lead... so how could I do it?
>
>
> (The disclaimer here is that I've been working with Apache projects for
> 1.5 years, and I have fallen and stumble so many times, so any coaching is
> welcome)
>
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 07:58, Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 3/28/19 11:28 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> > Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully
>> support your goals, but I do worry that demanding the foundation "police"
>> these things by forcing people to behave in a way you find acceptable is
>> counter-productive.
>>
>>
>> FWIW, Pierre used the term "policing".
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
>> http://rcbowen.com/
>> @rbowen
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>>
>>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Griselda Cuevas]

I'd like to help with the research. I could help to:

a) Identify a consultant to work on this, and

b) lead the research representing the ASF.


Here are my credentials:


I'm a latin woman, working actively on bringing awareness of Open Source to
Latin America. I'm planning a conference for 1000 tech practitioners (not
only CS graduates) in Mexico to talk about how to contribute to Open
Source. I'm addressing topics such as impostor syndrome, language barriers
and remote collaboration. I'm also discussing legal matters and
volunteering as a way to uplevel your career and CV. We're at the same time
talking to the industry leaders to encourage employees to contribute back
to OSS. These efforts are part of the Product Inclusion council for Latin
American users at Google.


Additionally, in the past, I've done research for Google on fair reward
systems for what is now our Product Expert programs. The research included
qualitative and quantitative analysis of people who spoke 20 different
languages. Our objective was to develop a program and an on boarding
experience that would grow our community of experts.


Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.


Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes I
struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel like
I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
offering to lead... so how could I do it?


(The disclaimer here is that I've been working with Apache projects for 1.5
years, and I have fallen and stumble so many times, so any coaching is
welcome)

On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 07:58, Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 3/28/19 11:28 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully support
> your goals, but I do worry that demanding the foundation "police" these
> things by forcing people to behave in a way you find acceptable is
> counter-productive.
>
>
> FWIW, Pierre used the term "policing".
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
> http://rcbowen.com/
> @rbowen
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Rich Bowen]

On 3/28/19 11:28 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully support your goals, but 
I do worry that demanding the foundation "police" these things by forcing 
people to behave in a way you find acceptable is counter-productive.



FWIW, Pierre used the term "policing".

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Naomi Slater]

in your email, you say that we have made a lot of progress. but I disagree.
we have made *some* progress. and that progress is good. but it is nowhere
near enough. and I don't intend to stop complaining

I am extremely grateful to every person who has helped us make that
progress. but as Rich said, we are under 8 feet of water. so perhaps some
readers will excuse me for not being overtly thankful that we are no longer
under *nine* feet of water

if I had made any of the people who have put the effort to feel
underappreciated or undervalued, then I sincerely apologize (to those
people). I know what it is like to do this work without thanks

indeed -- and I am surprised I have to add this, to be honest, but -- most
of the work I have done at Apache in the 12 years I have been a contributor
has been exactly this sort of work. indeed, much of the progress you
describe can trace its roots back to efforts I have been involved in (code
of conduct, CouchDB, etc)

in my experience, the people who are also doing this work appreciate people
like me being vocal about what needs to be improved and not mincing my
words about it. because it validates the work they are also doing, or
validates the feelings they share (if they are affected by the issues I'm
talking about, etc)

I cannot overemphasize how *demotivating* it is to do this sort of work
on-list and to be repeatedly be met with naysayers, and filibustering, and
pedantic unproductive circular arguments. it makes the work feel pointless.
it is exhausting

so if I was going to choose anyone to publicly upbraid, it would be those
people

On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 04:38, Ross Gardler  wrote:

> You can find posts from me on this topic going back a long way. Noirin
> tried to educate me. I didn't learn fast enough, however, she did convince
> me that I need to learn and act more quickly.


Norin was one of the people who thanked me multiple times in private for
continuing to be vocal on the lists about what is broken when they had run
out of energy and left the discussion, demotivated and frustrated


> In 2015 I broke from tradition for the State of the Feather talk at
> ApacheCon. Rather than a self-congratulatory romp through statistics I
> challenged the foundation to think about diversity. You can see the talk
> here (I've linked to where I start on Diversity for your convenience).
> https://youtu.be/1UkQBOvVhfw?t=1010


I was in the audience!

Fast forward 4 years we've made very significant progress. Our diversity
> numbers are up significantly. We have two women on the board - despite
> Isabel (who could have been a third) stepping down from her director role
> and re-nomination, we have a code of conduct and we are much more aware of
> the problems that exist. Everything is going in the right direction because
> of the hard work of a significant number of people.
>

in the kindest possible way: I don't need to be reminded of this. I am one
of the people who has worked to make this happen

>
> Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully support
> your goals, but I do worry that demanding the foundation "police" these
> things by forcing people to behave in a way you find acceptable is
> counter-productive. That's just not what the foundation is.


I have not once suggested that we "police" anybody. nor have I ever
suggested we force people to behave in a way that is acceptable. perhaps
you are confusing me for other people who have said things like this


> We need to work within the structure of the foundation.


that is 100% what I am advocating. I believe that the Community PMC has a
responsibility, per its charter, to make structural changes to the
organization as a whole to improve our community (and communities) -- and I
believe that this work must touch the disparate community resources, the
foundation-level resources, the Incubator, and every single project. in one
way or another


> We need to take action as individuals such that it becomes the norm and
> this debate simply goes away.
>

I believe you are conflating two things here

the work necessary to affect large-scale structural changes (i.e., the
sorts of changes that must be made if we want to get anywhere close to what
Sam describes when he relates his experience of the Node community)
requires a collective effort, and that will, of course, require us to make
an effort as individuals

but that doesn't mean that an individualist strategy is the right approach
here. this isn't as simple as "be the change you wanna be and the rest will
fall into place". that's not how this sort of thing works

the debate is never going to "simply go away". it's going to take
long-term, coordinated effort to bring about broad structural change and
then it is going to take long-term, coordinated effort to maintain that as
the status quo


> I do understand that accepting this is much easier for me, as a white male
> who speaks English as a first language. I do understand that the slow
> progress 

Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on collaboration in OSS development

[Kevin A. McGrail]

Same.  Very frustrating.  These self-serving spams have burned my
interest in helping anyone to do legitimate research with our assistance.

On 3/29/2019 5:33 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> Hi,
>
> JFYI - And it look like they may of just spammed a whole lot of people. I 
> just got an unsolicited email from them.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


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Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

[Jim Jagielski]

I applaud this idea and fully support it! I also note that
it is extremely smart to document what didn't work, as
well as what did, w/ ComCon and how Events will be
different. Way too often we do these reboots by the seat
of our pants. This is the way to do it.

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[jira] [Commented] (COMDEV-313) HTTP/3 for Apache Tomcat: DTLS support for JSSE+OpenSSL

[Mark Thomas (JIRA)]

[ 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-313?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel=16804834#comment-16804834
 ] 

Mark Thomas commented on COMDEV-313:


Experience with GSoC tells me that a successful student needs to be engaged 
with the project from the start. That means joining the dev list as early as 
possible and starting to contribute. The exact nature of those contributions is 
less important than demonstrating an understanding of the code base and your 
coding skills. The dev@ list can answer any questions you have (or ask me 
directly if you prefer although I may redirect you to the dev@ list anyway). 
Generally, this is more effective if you choose the issues to work on but the 
dev@ list can provide pointers if asked.

> HTTP/3 for Apache Tomcat: DTLS support for JSSE+OpenSSL
> ---
>
> Key: COMDEV-313
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMDEV-313
> Project: Community Development
>  Issue Type: New Feature
>  Components: GSoC/Mentoring ideas
>Reporter: Mark Thomas
>Priority: Major
>  Labels: gsoc2019
>
> HTTP/3 is the next iteration of the HTTP protocol. An HTTP/3 implementation 
> requires a number of building blocks of which this is one.
> Java does not currently have DTLS support.
> Tomcat has two options for TLS. Pure JSSE and JSSE+OpenSSL where a JSSE 
> wrapper is placed around OpenSSL and OpenSSL is used to perform the 
> encryption.
> Irrespective of whether Java provides DTLS support, Tomcat will want an 
> JSSE+OpenSSL option for DTLS. This project is to provide that JSSE+OpenSSL 
> based DTLS implementation.



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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Jim Jagielski]

> On Mar 28, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Naomi Slater  wrote:
> 
> I'd argue that it's actually the failure of the foundation. we're
> responsible for instilling the "apache way", so we're responsible for its
> shortcomings. and our diversity stats *do* reveal some pretty large
> shortcomings
> 
> to put it another way: voluntary contribution is the life-blood of this
> organization. our ability to attract contributions is our number one
> biggest asset. "meritocracy" is one of the ideologies we use in service of
> that goal
> 

I know I said I was backing away from this thread, but I agree so much
with what Naomi said above, that I feel it necessary to make that clear.

And while I'm here, it's been implied that I don't see our lack
of diversity as a problem. That is far, far from the truth. What
I am saying is that it's not as simple or as "clear cut", IMHO at
least, as some make it out to be. Very few things in life are.


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Re: Help us understand the effects of developers' personality on collaboration in OSS development

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

JFYI - And it look like they may of just spammed a whole lot of people. I just 
got an unsolicited email from them.

Thanks,
Justin
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