Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
> On Sep 29, 2023, at 6:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, at 12:51, Christian Grobmeier wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, at 19:38, Ralph Goers wrote: >>> At this point in time I will abstain from voting. As far as I am >>> concerned only 1 vote counts - Scott’s. He has steadfastly asked that >>> the project not be retired and until he positively says he will no >>> longer maintain it I am not willing to override that. >> >> >> Agreed. I don’t think this discussion is already due for a vote. Even >> when we consider it dormant, we should consider to fix the problem. >> Unlike log4j1, chainsaw was never considered EOL. >> >> I would like to hear from Scott but also Robert, who did the last commits. > > I was just reading that message again, and would like to add something. > > I actually disagree that only one vote counts in this case. The PMC as a > whole is responsible for maintaining a component, fixing security issues etc. > If we decide to keep a component, we should be behind this decision. > > I think we should reopen this vote and discussion in a few weeks again to > see, if there actually was any maintenance (no threating here) > I think you misunderstood my position. Scott has been asked at least once a year on average on whether we should retire Chainsaw. I asked that question of him many times. Every time he has been asked he has said something to the effect of “I don’t have a lot of time but I will commit to supporting Chainsaw”. In addition others have stepped up to contribute to it to help out. So long as a component has 1 PMC member who is dedicated to maintaining a component I will not support retiring it. Ralph
Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, at 12:51, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, at 19:38, Ralph Goers wrote: >> At this point in time I will abstain from voting. As far as I am >> concerned only 1 vote counts - Scott’s. He has steadfastly asked that >> the project not be retired and until he positively says he will no >> longer maintain it I am not willing to override that. > > > Agreed. I don’t think this discussion is already due for a vote. Even > when we consider it dormant, we should consider to fix the problem. > Unlike log4j1, chainsaw was never considered EOL. > > I would like to hear from Scott but also Robert, who did the last commits. I was just reading that message again, and would like to add something. I actually disagree that only one vote counts in this case. The PMC as a whole is responsible for maintaining a component, fixing security issues etc. If we decide to keep a component, we should be behind this decision. I think we should reopen this vote and discussion in a few weeks again to see, if there actually was any maintenance (no threating here) Kind regards, Christian > Christian > >> I should also note that AFAIK we have never “archived” a dormant >> project. We simply change its status on the web site. That said, a >> read-only repo does make some sense for a dormant project I guess. >> >> Ralph >> >>> On Sep 21, 2023, at 10:00 AM, Volkan Yazıcı wrote: >>> >>> As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on >>> maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. >>> This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of >>> >>> - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] >>> - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not >>> maintained anymore >>> - Archive its repository[3] >>> >>> Please cast your votes on this mailing list. >>> >>> [ ] +1, retire the project >>> [ ] -1, don't retire, because... >>> >>> This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net >>> negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, >>> but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At >>> least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. >>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q >>> [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html >>> [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
Casting my +1, retire the project, because...[1]. With that, the decision does not pass with 3 binding -1 votes from Scott, Ralph, Gary and 1 binding +1 from me. [1] As its one and only active maintainer states, the project's user base is "very low to non-existent"[2]. No PMC member indicated they can currently afford time to address its shortcomings[3]. PMC should make this lack-of-maintenance clear to the public. PMC should focus its limited development resources on projects that have wider audiences rather than maintaining features serving to a handful of privileged (i.e., those who can vote go or no-go for a project) individuals, where these people/organizations can very well keep on using/maintaining the product from a fork. [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/ovhvs42wfw5kzzywzzjtyzj3gjm4hbt0 [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/t8pzkm9c4qgmb0fw16bswjs69mckt5wc On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 7:00 PM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > maintained anymore > - Archive its repository[3] > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > [ ] +1, retire the project > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
Might as well cast my official -1. Gary On Thu, Sep 28, 2023, 11:37 AM Ralph Goers wrote: > I will echo Scott’s vote. -1 > > Ralph > > > On Sep 22, 2023, at 7:30 AM, Scott Deboy wrote: > > > > -1 > > > > While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works > > well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. > > > > Scott > > > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > >> As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > >> maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > >> This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > >> > >> - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > >> - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > >> maintained anymore > >> - Archive its repository[3] > >> > >> Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > >> > >> [ ] +1, retire the project > >> [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > >> > >> This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > >> negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > >> but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > >> least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > >> [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > >> [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw > >> > >
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
I will echo Scott’s vote. -1 Ralph > On Sep 22, 2023, at 7:30 AM, Scott Deboy wrote: > > -1 > > While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works > well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. > > Scott > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > >> As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on >> maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. >> This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of >> >> - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] >> - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not >> maintained anymore >> - Archive its repository[3] >> >> Please cast your votes on this mailing list. >> >> [ ] +1, retire the project >> [ ] -1, don't retire, because... >> >> This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net >> negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, >> but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At >> least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. >> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q >> [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html >> [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw >>
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
It's been 6 days, can we close this vote? Gary On Sat, Sep 23, 2023 at 12:31 AM Scott Deboy wrote: > > Most of the ui elements can be hidden. The explicit hidden expression > filter and real time update support are indispensable. > > I use it to aggregate results from multiple hosts into a single tab and > filter in that view. > > Scott > > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, 7:35 PM Robert Middleton > wrote: > > > I think Chainsaw /can/ be useful, but it currently is not. If people are > > willing to work on it a bit more, I can help out a bit. I can see it > > potentially being useful for the type of work that I do(embedded work) but > > it needs a fair amount of attention in order to get to the useful level > > IMO. > > > > I have spent a fair amount of time getting it into a state where it will > > run with newer JVMs and removing the old dependencies and re-architecting > > the backend to be more generic and allow for inputs from all types of > > sources. I think the basic architecture is sound at this point, but I > > think the GUI is much too busy to make it useful. I have been thinking > > about how it could be re-done though, I do have some ideas that I can put > > in a new thread. > > > > Latest staging site for reference: > > https://logging.staged.apache.org/chainsaw/2.2.0/ > > > > -Robert Middleton > > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 10:30 AM Scott Deboy > > wrote: > > > > > -1 > > > > > > While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works > > > well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > > > > > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > > > > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > > > > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > > > > > > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > > > > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > > > > maintained anymore > > > > - Archive its repository[3] > > > > > > > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > > > > > > > [ ] +1, retire the project > > > > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > > > > > > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > > > > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > > > > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > > > > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > > > > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > > > > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > > > > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw > > > > > > > > >
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
Most of the ui elements can be hidden. The explicit hidden expression filter and real time update support are indispensable. I use it to aggregate results from multiple hosts into a single tab and filter in that view. Scott On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, 7:35 PM Robert Middleton wrote: > I think Chainsaw /can/ be useful, but it currently is not. If people are > willing to work on it a bit more, I can help out a bit. I can see it > potentially being useful for the type of work that I do(embedded work) but > it needs a fair amount of attention in order to get to the useful level > IMO. > > I have spent a fair amount of time getting it into a state where it will > run with newer JVMs and removing the old dependencies and re-architecting > the backend to be more generic and allow for inputs from all types of > sources. I think the basic architecture is sound at this point, but I > think the GUI is much too busy to make it useful. I have been thinking > about how it could be re-done though, I do have some ideas that I can put > in a new thread. > > Latest staging site for reference: > https://logging.staged.apache.org/chainsaw/2.2.0/ > > -Robert Middleton > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 10:30 AM Scott Deboy > wrote: > > > -1 > > > > While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works > > well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. > > > > Scott > > > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > > > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > > > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > > > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > > > > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > > > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > > > maintained anymore > > > - Archive its repository[3] > > > > > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > > > > > [ ] +1, retire the project > > > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > > > > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > > > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > > > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > > > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > > > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > > > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw > > > > > >
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
I think Chainsaw /can/ be useful, but it currently is not. If people are willing to work on it a bit more, I can help out a bit. I can see it potentially being useful for the type of work that I do(embedded work) but it needs a fair amount of attention in order to get to the useful level IMO. I have spent a fair amount of time getting it into a state where it will run with newer JVMs and removing the old dependencies and re-architecting the backend to be more generic and allow for inputs from all types of sources. I think the basic architecture is sound at this point, but I think the GUI is much too busy to make it useful. I have been thinking about how it could be re-done though, I do have some ideas that I can put in a new thread. Latest staging site for reference: https://logging.staged.apache.org/chainsaw/2.2.0/ -Robert Middleton On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 10:30 AM Scott Deboy wrote: > -1 > > While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works > well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. > > Scott > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > > maintained anymore > > - Archive its repository[3] > > > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > > > [ ] +1, retire the project > > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw > > >
Re: [VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
-1 While changes may be infrequent, the project is still useful and works well. I'll continue to contribute to maintenance. Scott On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 10:00 AM Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > maintained anymore > - Archive its repository[3] > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > [ ] +1, retire the project > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw >
Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, at 19:38, Ralph Goers wrote: > At this point in time I will abstain from voting. As far as I am > concerned only 1 vote counts - Scott’s. He has steadfastly asked that > the project not be retired and until he positively says he will no > longer maintain it I am not willing to override that. Agreed. I don’t think this discussion is already due for a vote. Even when we consider it dormant, we should consider to fix the problem. Unlike log4j1, chainsaw was never considered EOL. I would like to hear from Scott but also Robert, who did the last commits. Christian > I should also note that AFAIK we have never “archived” a dormant > project. We simply change its status on the web site. That said, a > read-only repo does make some sense for a dormant project I guess. > > Ralph > >> On Sep 21, 2023, at 10:00 AM, Volkan Yazıcı wrote: >> >> As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on >> maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. >> This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of >> >> - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] >> - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not >> maintained anymore >> - Archive its repository[3] >> >> Please cast your votes on this mailing list. >> >> [ ] +1, retire the project >> [ ] -1, don't retire, because... >> >> This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net >> negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, >> but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At >> least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. >> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q >> [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html >> [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw
Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
At this point in time I will abstain from voting. As far as I am concerned only 1 vote counts - Scott’s. He has steadfastly asked that the project not be retired and until he positively says he will no longer maintain it I am not willing to override that. I should also note that AFAIK we have never “archived” a dormant project. We simply change its status on the web site. That said, a read-only repo does make some sense for a dormant project I guess. Ralph > On Sep 21, 2023, at 10:00 AM, Volkan Yazıcı wrote: > > As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on > maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. > This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of > > - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] > - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not > maintained anymore > - Archive its repository[3] > > Please cast your votes on this mailing list. > > [ ] +1, retire the project > [ ] -1, don't retire, because... > > This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net > negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, > but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At > least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q > [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html > [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw
[VOTE] Move Chainsaw to dormant status
As earlier discussions[1] indicate, Chainsaw has been lacking on maintenance and no PMC member stepped up to perform necessary chores. This is a vote to retire the Chainsaw by means of - Move it to the list of dormant projects[2] - Making it clear in its README and website that the project is not maintained anymore - Archive its repository[3] Please cast your votes on this mailing list. [ ] +1, retire the project [ ] -1, don't retire, because... This vote is open for 72 hours and will pass unless getting a net negative vote count. All votes are welcome and we encourage everyone, but only the Logging Services PMC votes are officially counted. At least 3 +1 votes and more positive than negative votes are required. [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fsykp5hxr9z0c2h85snnhnj2pq553t6q [2] https://logging.apache.org/dormant.html [3] https://github.com/apache/chainsaw
