Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

[Mikael Ståldal]

You have a file system, it is a storage. It has an index, a directory 
of files. Why not put the different configurations as separate files in 
a directory in the file system?



On 2017-08-09 07:34, Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis wrote:

I agree with you in a lot of things, but I think, maybe for my lack of 
experience talking in English, that you don't understand me at all.
1.- I would like just to give the possibility to share the same file, it is not 
mandatory but would be the default solution.
2.- What I want to share is just the "storage", in this case an XmlFile

In order to do this I think that as any storage system does we need an index, this 
index is  tag.
There you indicate the node of each logging subsystem in this case  and 
there should be another for . How do you indicate this? Is not what I'm 
proposing as I don't know it deeply, maybe a fullpath to the node, maybe just one tag  
don't know what is the best way.

Inside each tag, each one could still be using whatever attributes they use, I 
think what they are using now would be fine.

There's no reason to share appenders or other things, I'm not talking about 
this, just what I hope I explain now better.

Saludos,
Jose


-Mensaje original-
De: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com]
Enviado el: martes, 8 de agosto de 2017 14:45
Para: dev@logging.apache.org
Asunto: RE: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

There is at the moment only the idea of a common logging configuration 
specification for all the logging services subprojects. Note that this topic 
sounds like a great idea at first but gets complicated really quickly when 
thinking about all the different appenders, different notions about classes and 
namespaces or even differences in the environments like how settings are saved 
and retrieved. Storing the configuration in xml is not on all platforms the 
first choice. Because of these differences the different logging subprojects 
have evolved and they only share one thing:
they are there to provide a logging framework that fits into the environments 
where they run.

You could base your configuration files on a common configuration file and 
generate one for log4net and one for log4php during the release or deployment 
process. However i doubt the effort outweighs the benefits because every 
installation needs something slightly different. Further, when investigating an 
issue in backend A it should not affect backend B or frontend C and no longer 
be replaced by the default configuration on an update.

Last but not least, I would like to mention that decoupling applications is a 
great thing. A strongly coupled application is hard to maintain and refactor. 
And yes, I've been in such a situation and got no t-shirt. This is what I've 
learned back then:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_concerns

As you say, you have two systems running on the same machine and they are two systems 
that are related, but developers and devops should care where they relate. Where they 
"communicate", there should be an API and the surface of both should be as 
small as possible. Hidden dependencies is not a great thing because it makes space for 
culprits and pitfalls.

On 8 Aug 2017 8:16 a.m., "Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis" < 
jldomingue...@sice.com> wrote:


That is not correct because your base "is what typically happens" is
not really/fully true.
We have the two system running in the same machine (not matter if they
are separate, just take care) and also they are related.
The difference between them is the business that they cover.
One of them is used for configuration and the other is for the
business itself.

The more we spread configuration the more difficult to maintain. (This
two systems are the base unit of lot of systems.)

And that's why we want to use just one file, and XML support this very
well, and also in log4net you can see that they thought about it and
you can embed your configuration following the example I gave, but php
does not allow it as it doesn't manage  tag. Well I
think this is the problem, but not quite sure. That's why I ask how
can I do this, I have a solution but I don't think it is the right way to do 
things.



Saludos,
Jose

-Mensaje original-
De: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com] Enviado el: lunes, 7
de agosto de 2017 21:16
Para: dev@logging.apache.org
Asunto: Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

To me this sounds rather strange because it sounds like a mix-up of
unrelated applications. Let me explain my reasoning..

Typically, log4net would run on an entirely different machine than
where log4php runs (i.e. apache2). At least it would not coexist
within an
apache2 process since apache2 would not run dotnet assemblies as far
as I am aware of. So there are at least two completely unrelated
processes sourcing one and the same configuration file. It's like
apache2 reading the postfix configuration, isn't it?

2017-08-07

RE: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

[Domínguez Moraleja , Jose Luis]

I agree with you in a lot of things, but I think, maybe for my lack of 
experience talking in English, that you don't understand me at all.
1.- I would like just to give the possibility to share the same file, it is not 
mandatory but would be the default solution.
2.- What I want to share is just the "storage", in this case an XmlFile

In order to do this I think that as any storage system does we need an index, 
this index is  tag.
There you indicate the node of each logging subsystem in this case  
and there should be another for . How do you indicate this? Is not 
what I'm proposing as I don't know it deeply, maybe a fullpath to the node, 
maybe just one tag  don't know what is the best way.

Inside each tag, each one could still be using whatever attributes they use, I 
think what they are using now would be fine.

There's no reason to share appenders or other things, I'm not talking about 
this, just what I hope I explain now better.

Saludos,
Jose


-Mensaje original-
De: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com]
Enviado el: martes, 8 de agosto de 2017 14:45
Para: dev@logging.apache.org
Asunto: RE: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

There is at the moment only the idea of a common logging configuration 
specification for all the logging services subprojects. Note that this topic 
sounds like a great idea at first but gets complicated really quickly when 
thinking about all the different appenders, different notions about classes and 
namespaces or even differences in the environments like how settings are saved 
and retrieved. Storing the configuration in xml is not on all platforms the 
first choice. Because of these differences the different logging subprojects 
have evolved and they only share one thing:
they are there to provide a logging framework that fits into the environments 
where they run.

You could base your configuration files on a common configuration file and 
generate one for log4net and one for log4php during the release or deployment 
process. However i doubt the effort outweighs the benefits because every 
installation needs something slightly different. Further, when investigating an 
issue in backend A it should not affect backend B or frontend C and no longer 
be replaced by the default configuration on an update.

Last but not least, I would like to mention that decoupling applications is a 
great thing. A strongly coupled application is hard to maintain and refactor. 
And yes, I've been in such a situation and got no t-shirt. This is what I've 
learned back then:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_concerns

As you say, you have two systems running on the same machine and they are two 
systems that are related, but developers and devops should care where they 
relate. Where they "communicate", there should be an API and the surface of 
both should be as small as possible. Hidden dependencies is not a great thing 
because it makes space for culprits and pitfalls.

On 8 Aug 2017 8:16 a.m., "Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis" < 
jldomingue...@sice.com> wrote:

> That is not correct because your base "is what typically happens" is
> not really/fully true.
> We have the two system running in the same machine (not matter if they
> are separate, just take care) and also they are related.
> The difference between them is the business that they cover.
> One of them is used for configuration and the other is for the
> business itself.
>
> The more we spread configuration the more difficult to maintain. (This
> two systems are the base unit of lot of systems.)
>
> And that's why we want to use just one file, and XML support this very
> well, and also in log4net you can see that they thought about it and
> you can embed your configuration following the example I gave, but php
> does not allow it as it doesn't manage  tag. Well I
> think this is the problem, but not quite sure. That's why I ask how
> can I do this, I have a solution but I don't think it is the right way to do 
> things.
>
>
>
> Saludos,
> Jose
>
> -Mensaje original-
> De: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com] Enviado el: lunes, 7
> de agosto de 2017 21:16
> Para: dev@logging.apache.org
> Asunto: Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file
>
> To me this sounds rather strange because it sounds like a mix-up of
> unrelated applications. Let me explain my reasoning..
>
> Typically, log4net would run on an entirely different machine than
> where log4php runs (i.e. apache2). At least it would not coexist
> within an
> apache2 process since apache2 would not run dotnet assemblies as far
> as I am aware of. So there are at least two completely unrelated
> processes sourcing one and the same configuration file. It's like
> apache2 reading the postfix configuration, isn't it?
>
> 2017-08-07 17:09 GMT+02:00 Matt Sicker <

Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

[Dominik Psenner]

To me this sounds rather strange because it sounds like a mix-up of
unrelated applications. Let me explain my reasoning..

Typically, log4net would run on an entirely different machine than where
log4php runs (i.e. apache2). At least it would not coexist within an
apache2 process since apache2 would not run dotnet assemblies as far as I
am aware of. So there are at least two completely unrelated processes
sourcing one and the same configuration file. It's like apache2 reading the
postfix configuration, isn't it?

2017-08-07 17:09 GMT+02:00 Matt Sicker :

> I'm guessing that there are two separate applications running that want to
> use the same configuration. Such an idea wouldn't allow for logging to the
> same file all that well (synchronization issues), but being able to use the
> same config file across different languages would be nice.
>
> On 7 August 2017 at 07:59, Dominik Psenner  wrote:
>
> > You have an application that both runs log4net AND log4php in the same
> > process?
> >
> > On 7 Aug 2017 12:51 p.m., "Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis" <
> > jldomingue...@sice.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm working in a project and we want to use this two libraries log4php
> > and
> > > log4net.
> > >
> > > We want to use just one configuration file, is there any way to do it
> > like
> > > this?:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > > 
> > >
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > > 
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > Saludos,
> > > Jose
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > > Este mensaje va dirigido, de manera exclusiva, a su destinatario y
> > > contiene información confidencial y sujeta a secreto profesional, cuya
> > > divulgación no está permitida por la ley. En caso de haber recibido
> este
> > > mensaje por error, le rogamos que, de forma inmediata, nos lo comunique
> > > mediante correo electrónico remitido a nuestra atención o a través del
> > > teléfono (+34) 91 623 22 00 y proceda a su eliminación, así como a la
> de
> > > cualquier documento adjunto al mismo. Así mismo, le comunicamos que la
> > > distribución, copia o utilización de este mensaje, o de cualquier
> > documento
> > > adjunto al mismo, cualquiera que fuera su finalidad, están prohibidas
> por
> > > ley.  El correo electrónico vía Internet no permite asegurar la
> > > confidencialidad de los mensajes que se transmiten ni su integridad o
> > > correcta recepción. GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS no asume
> > > responsabilidad por estas circunstancias. Si el destinatario de este
> > > mensaje no consintiera la utilización del correo electrónico vía
> > Internet y
> > > la grabación de los mensajes, rogamos lo ponga en nuestro conocimiento
> de
> > > forma inmediata. En cumplimiento de la normativa de protección de
> datos,
> > le
> > > informamos de que sus datos personales forman parte de un fichero
> > propiedad
> > > de GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS y son tratados con la finalidad de
> > > mantenimiento de la relación adquirida con usted. Puede ejercitar los
> > > derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición dirigiéndose
> > por
> > > escrito a la dirección arriba indicada.
> > >
> > > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and contains
> > > confidential information and subject to professional secrecy, the
> > > disclosure of which is not permitted by law. If you have received this
> > > message in error, please immediately notify us by e-mail sent to our
> > > attention or via telephone (+34) 91 623 22 00 and proceed to its
> > > elimination, as well as any document attached to it. Likewise, we
> inform
> > > you that the distribution, copying or use of this message, or any
> > document
> > > attached to the same, whatever its purpose, are prohibited by law. The
> > > Internet e-mail does not ensure the confidentiality of messages that
> are
> > > transmitted or its integrity or proper reception. GRUPO SICE
> TECNOLOGIA Y
> > > SISTEMAS assumes no responsibility for these circumstances. If the
> > > recipient of this message does not consent to the use of e-mail via the
> > > Internet and the recording of the messages, please put it in our
> > knowledge
> > > immediately. In compliance with the regulations of data protection, we
> > > inform you that your personal data are part of a file property of GRUPO
> > > SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS and are treated with the aim of maintaining
> > the
> > > relationship gained with you. 

Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

[Matt Sicker]

I'm guessing that there are two separate applications running that want to
use the same configuration. Such an idea wouldn't allow for logging to the
same file all that well (synchronization issues), but being able to use the
same config file across different languages would be nice.

On 7 August 2017 at 07:59, Dominik Psenner  wrote:

> You have an application that both runs log4net AND log4php in the same
> process?
>
> On 7 Aug 2017 12:51 p.m., "Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis" <
> jldomingue...@sice.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm working in a project and we want to use this two libraries log4php
> and
> > log4net.
> >
> > We want to use just one configuration file, is there any way to do it
> like
> > this?:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> >   
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >
> >   
> > 
> >
> >   
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >
> > 
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >
> > 
> >   
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >
> >   
> >
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> > Saludos,
> > Jose
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > Este mensaje va dirigido, de manera exclusiva, a su destinatario y
> > contiene información confidencial y sujeta a secreto profesional, cuya
> > divulgación no está permitida por la ley. En caso de haber recibido este
> > mensaje por error, le rogamos que, de forma inmediata, nos lo comunique
> > mediante correo electrónico remitido a nuestra atención o a través del
> > teléfono (+34) 91 623 22 00 y proceda a su eliminación, así como a la de
> > cualquier documento adjunto al mismo. Así mismo, le comunicamos que la
> > distribución, copia o utilización de este mensaje, o de cualquier
> documento
> > adjunto al mismo, cualquiera que fuera su finalidad, están prohibidas por
> > ley.  El correo electrónico vía Internet no permite asegurar la
> > confidencialidad de los mensajes que se transmiten ni su integridad o
> > correcta recepción. GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS no asume
> > responsabilidad por estas circunstancias. Si el destinatario de este
> > mensaje no consintiera la utilización del correo electrónico vía
> Internet y
> > la grabación de los mensajes, rogamos lo ponga en nuestro conocimiento de
> > forma inmediata. En cumplimiento de la normativa de protección de datos,
> le
> > informamos de que sus datos personales forman parte de un fichero
> propiedad
> > de GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS y son tratados con la finalidad de
> > mantenimiento de la relación adquirida con usted. Puede ejercitar los
> > derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición dirigiéndose
> por
> > escrito a la dirección arriba indicada.
> >
> > This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and contains
> > confidential information and subject to professional secrecy, the
> > disclosure of which is not permitted by law. If you have received this
> > message in error, please immediately notify us by e-mail sent to our
> > attention or via telephone (+34) 91 623 22 00 and proceed to its
> > elimination, as well as any document attached to it. Likewise, we inform
> > you that the distribution, copying or use of this message, or any
> document
> > attached to the same, whatever its purpose, are prohibited by law. The
> > Internet e-mail does not ensure the confidentiality of messages that are
> > transmitted or its integrity or proper reception. GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y
> > SISTEMAS assumes no responsibility for these circumstances. If the
> > recipient of this message does not consent to the use of e-mail via the
> > Internet and the recording of the messages, please put it in our
> knowledge
> > immediately. In compliance with the regulations of data protection, we
> > inform you that your personal data are part of a file property of GRUPO
> > SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS and are treated with the aim of maintaining
> the
> > relationship gained with you. You can exercise your rights of access,
> > rectification, cancellation and opposition by writing to the address
> > indicated above.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _
> >
>



-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: [log4net][log4php] Xml Config file

[Dominik Psenner]

You have an application that both runs log4net AND log4php in the same
process?

On 7 Aug 2017 12:51 p.m., "Domínguez Moraleja, Jose Luis" <
jldomingue...@sice.com> wrote:

> I'm working in a project and we want to use this two libraries log4php and
> log4net.
>
> We want to use just one configuration file, is there any way to do it like
> this?:
>
> 
> 
>
>   
> 
> 
>   
>
>   
> 
>
>   
> 
> 
>   
> 
>
> 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
> 
>  
> 
>
> 
>   
>   
>   
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
>
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>
> 
>
> Saludos,
> Jose
>
>
>
> 
> Este mensaje va dirigido, de manera exclusiva, a su destinatario y
> contiene información confidencial y sujeta a secreto profesional, cuya
> divulgación no está permitida por la ley. En caso de haber recibido este
> mensaje por error, le rogamos que, de forma inmediata, nos lo comunique
> mediante correo electrónico remitido a nuestra atención o a través del
> teléfono (+34) 91 623 22 00 y proceda a su eliminación, así como a la de
> cualquier documento adjunto al mismo. Así mismo, le comunicamos que la
> distribución, copia o utilización de este mensaje, o de cualquier documento
> adjunto al mismo, cualquiera que fuera su finalidad, están prohibidas por
> ley.  El correo electrónico vía Internet no permite asegurar la
> confidencialidad de los mensajes que se transmiten ni su integridad o
> correcta recepción. GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS no asume
> responsabilidad por estas circunstancias. Si el destinatario de este
> mensaje no consintiera la utilización del correo electrónico vía Internet y
> la grabación de los mensajes, rogamos lo ponga en nuestro conocimiento de
> forma inmediata. En cumplimiento de la normativa de protección de datos, le
> informamos de que sus datos personales forman parte de un fichero propiedad
> de GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS y son tratados con la finalidad de
> mantenimiento de la relación adquirida con usted. Puede ejercitar los
> derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición dirigiéndose por
> escrito a la dirección arriba indicada.
>
> This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and contains
> confidential information and subject to professional secrecy, the
> disclosure of which is not permitted by law. If you have received this
> message in error, please immediately notify us by e-mail sent to our
> attention or via telephone (+34) 91 623 22 00 and proceed to its
> elimination, as well as any document attached to it. Likewise, we inform
> you that the distribution, copying or use of this message, or any document
> attached to the same, whatever its purpose, are prohibited by law. The
> Internet e-mail does not ensure the confidentiality of messages that are
> transmitted or its integrity or proper reception. GRUPO SICE TECNOLOGIA Y
> SISTEMAS assumes no responsibility for these circumstances. If the
> recipient of this message does not consent to the use of e-mail via the
> Internet and the recording of the messages, please put it in our knowledge
> immediately. In compliance with the regulations of data protection, we
> inform you that your personal data are part of a file property of GRUPO
> SICE TECNOLOGIA Y SISTEMAS and are treated with the aim of maintaining the
> relationship gained with you. You can exercise your rights of access,
> rectification, cancellation and opposition by writing to the address
> indicated above.
> 
> 
> 
> _
>