RE: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
good point. I remember when I tried to replace some JARs inside a container (it worked) but our QA told me that this will cause problems @ customers`s side. They pay much money for a container and replacing JARs can cause loose of support form the vendor side. Even when the customers engineers agree to do it, management will give a thumbs down ;-) Anyway, let`s do the JSF 1.2 impl. Java EE 5 will not be part of production at big big big customers. so containers like Geronimo or OC4J (just to name two) will be able to take the MyFaces JSF 1.2 impl to their system Even though the big companies are likely to be late implementers, all AppServer-Companies have to get working NOW... It might need some marketing to convince some appserver-people to wait for MyFaces 1.2 regards Alexander
RE: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that. We have people today who remove MyFaces so they can use the RI. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert -Original Message- From: Martin Marinschek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:16 AM To: MyFaces Development Subject: Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting Stan, will it be possible to configure another JSF 1.2 implementation in JBoss, when the release is out? Meaning - will it be possible to put the RI out and MyFaces (in a 1.2 compatible version) in, if that is desired by the user? regards, Martin On 5/10/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis Byrne schrieb: Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving. Btw. if anyone has not noticed yet, Craig pointed out at JAX a huge political issue with JSF 1.2 As of JEE 5 the webcontainers are not allowed in their classloader hierarchy to make the jsf implementation overridable via a WEB-INF/lib jsf (as far as I understood, Craig correct me there if I am wrong). So it will become way harder to push a new jsf implementation into a webapp as soon as an application moves from a plain servlet runner towards Tomcat. Werner -- http://www.irian.at Your JSF powerhouse - JSF Consulting, Development and Courses in English and German Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
that's my understanding as well. the only problem in my POV is that people might be wondering why the Myfaces-jars inside their WEB-INF/lib might be ignored (JavaEE 5). Will there be a logger-warning message ? -Matthias On 5/11/06, Stan Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that. We have people today who remove MyFaces so they can use the RI. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert -Original Message- From: Martin Marinschek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:16 AM To: MyFaces Development Subject: Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting Stan, will it be possible to configure another JSF 1.2 implementation in JBoss, when the release is out? Meaning - will it be possible to put the RI out and MyFaces (in a 1.2 compatible version) in, if that is desired by the user? regards, Martin On 5/10/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis Byrne schrieb: Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving. Btw. if anyone has not noticed yet, Craig pointed out at JAX a huge political issue with JSF 1.2 As of JEE 5 the webcontainers are not allowed in their classloader hierarchy to make the jsf implementation overridable via a WEB-INF/lib jsf (as far as I understood, Craig correct me there if I am wrong). So it will become way harder to push a new jsf implementation into a webapp as soon as an application moves from a plain servlet runner towards Tomcat. Werner -- http://www.irian.at Your JSF powerhouse - JSF Consulting, Development and Courses in English and German Professional Support for Apache MyFaces -- Matthias Wessendorf Aechterhoek 18 48282 Emsdetten http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
RE: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
It's possible, but weird things can happen. For instance, we now cache the MyFaces TLD globally. So, the standard JSF taglibs are available to all web apps regardless of classloader settings. When you try to use the RI you get conflicts because the MyFaces versions of these taglibs are called. To get the RI to work at all you have to either disable the cache or remove the MyFaces jars completely. I already created a task a few weeks ago to log an info message about this. So, at the very least users will get some helpful information about the choices they need to make. Right now they just get nasty error messages. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert -Original Message- From: Jacob Hookom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:16 AM To: MyFaces Development Subject: Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting I think it depends on the classloader... I wonder if the fact that you can specify an alternate Lifecycle on the FacesServlet mapping would allow you to hijack the implementation on a per webapp basis with JSF 1.2. Matthias Wessendorf wrote: that's my understanding as well. the only problem in my POV is that people might be wondering why the Myfaces-jars inside their WEB-INF/lib might be ignored (JavaEE 5). Will there be a logger-warning message ? -Matthias On 5/11/06, Stan Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that. We have people today who remove MyFaces so they can use the RI. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert -Original Message- From: Martin Marinschek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:16 AM To: MyFaces Development Subject: Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting Stan, will it be possible to configure another JSF 1.2 implementation in JBoss, when the release is out? Meaning - will it be possible to put the RI out and MyFaces (in a 1.2 compatible version) in, if that is desired by the user? regards, Martin On 5/10/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis Byrne schrieb: Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving. Btw. if anyone has not noticed yet, Craig pointed out at JAX a huge political issue with JSF 1.2 As of JEE 5 the webcontainers are not allowed in their classloader hierarchy to make the jsf implementation overridable via a WEB-INF/lib jsf (as far as I understood, Craig correct me there if I am wrong). So it will become way harder to push a new jsf implementation into a webapp as soon as an application moves from a plain servlet runner towards Tomcat. Werner -- http://www.irian.at Your JSF powerhouse - JSF Consulting, Development and Courses in English and German Professional Support for Apache MyFaces -- -- Sent from my FrankenBerry Wireless Handheld
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
On 5/10/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis Byrne schrieb: Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources.By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving.Btw. if anyone has not noticed yet, Craig pointed out at JAX a hugepolitical issue with JSF 1.2As of JEE 5 the webcontainers are not allowed in their classloader hierarchy to make the jsf implementation overridable via a WEB-INF/libjsf (as far as I understood, Craig correct me there if I am wrong).More precisely, you should not be allowed to replace the container's 1.2 implementation with a 1.1 implementation ... that would be like trying to replace the Servlet 2.5 implementation built in to the container with a Servlet 2.4 or 2.3 implementation by trying to include the relevant jars of Tomcat inside your war. It is certainly technically feasible for an app server to provide a mechanism to replace the JSF implementation inside the server itself. Just keep in mind that the result of doing this is no longer guaranteed to be a Java EE 5 server that has passed the entire platform suite of TCK tests. The TCKs would have been run against the unmodified server as a unit. CraigSo it will become way harder to push a new jsf implementation into a webapp as soon as an application moves from a plain servlet runnertowards Tomcat.Werner
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
More precisely, you should not be allowed to replace the container's 1.2 implementation with a 1.1 implementation ... that would be like trying to replace the Servlet 2.5 implementation built in to the container with a Servlet 2.4 or 2.3 implementation by trying to include the relevant jars of Tomcat inside your war. It is certainly technically feasible for an app server to provide a mechanism to replace the JSF implementation inside the server itself. Just keep in mind that the result of doing this is no longer guaranteed to be a Java EE 5 server that has passed the entire platform suite of TCK tests. The TCKs would have been run against the unmodified server as a unit. good point. I remember when I tried to replace some JARs inside a container (it worked) but our QA told me that this will cause problems @ customers`s side. They pay much money for a container and replacing JARs can cause loose of support form the vendor side. Anyway, let`s do the JSF 1.2 impl. Java EE 5 will not be part of production at big big big customers. so containers like Geronimo or OC4J (just to name two) will be able to take the MyFaces JSF 1.2 impl to their system -Matthias
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Anyway, let`s do the JSF 1.2 impl. Java EE 5 will not be part of production at big big big customers. so containers like Geronimo or OC4J (just to name two) will be able to take the MyFaces JSF 1.2 impl to their system I can't force anyone to share my opinion, but I would like to get a consensus on the goals for a 1.2 release . IMO, it is simple - pass TCK and release. Will one of the PMC members please start an official vote for this? -Matthias Dennis Byrne
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Stan- Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. It also means that I can be reassigned to other JSF-related projects. Which web-container you are using inside of JBoss? Is Tomcat 6 or Jetty already JEE5 compliant (and stable)? 1) I will commit the 1.2 code that I have already written. It is fairly substantial and should give MyFaces a good head start on 1.2 compliance. good -Matthias
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Hi Stan, Hi all, This is really bad news for our community. I'm personally very sad that JBoss has decided to choose this path. Most of you probably know that relationship between JBoss and the ASF was not always free of conflicts in the past. It's also no secret that JBoss never was happy about the Apache licence - for reasons beyond my ken. You mentioned that this decision was because of time and resources. There is no reason to doubt, of course. Stan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your contributions and thank you for your offer to commit the 1.2 stuff. Perhaps you where a little bit frustrated to get not much support from the community the last weeks. Ok, our fault. But, hey, this is Apache open source land. Many of us have day jobs not directly related to MyFaces. Many of us are currently working hard getting MyFaces 1.1.x stable. Everyone in the community is free to set his personal priorities. That's how it works. However, supporting Apache MyFaces further on would have been a strong signal from JBoss to the open source community. Too bad. Regards, Manfred On 5/9/06, Stan Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have some news for everyone. The JavaOne Committers/Contributors meeting is cancelled – at least for me. I won't be attending JavaOne this year. Since nobody from JBoss will be at the MyFaces meeting, I don't think JBoss will be able to sponsor the event. If you still want the meeting to happen I will find out if the room is cancelled or not. If the room is cancelled then maybe another company can pick up the cost. It wasn't very expensive (I think around $500). Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. It also means that I can be reassigned to other JSF-related projects. There is some good news: 1) I will commit the 1.2 code that I have already written. It is fairly substantial and should give MyFaces a good head start on 1.2 compliance. 2) Though I won't be as active as in the past few months, I'll still keep an eye on MyFaces work as time allows. 3) JBoss is upping its involvement in the JSF community. I can't say much at this point about that. You probably already know about JBoss Seam, but there is more cool JSF stuff where that came from. Best regards, Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert From: Stan Silvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:54 PM To: MyFaces Development Subject: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting In addition to the dinner, it sounded like there was interest in a MyFaces Committers and Contributors meeting. Please let me know if you are coming and if you are willing to lead a discussion. I got JBoss to sponsor the meeting and we now have a room booked for 20-30 people at the Hotel Palomar (across the street from the Marriott). We are booked on Wednesday, the 17th: - 20-30 people classroom style so you all will have desks - afternoon from 1pm to 5pm - 3pm break with refreshments – sodas and water. Maybe some light snacks? - LCD projector, one microphone, a screen and wireless mouse I'm open to the format, but I was thinking we could do it BOF-style with some short presentations and lots of QA. Here are some suggestions for topics: Project History and Overview (Manfred, would you be willing to do this one?) Project Infrastructure (SVN tips?, MVN tips?, How stuff is organized. Future Plans for component unification?) Tomahawk Tobago ADF The JSF Community and Ecosystem JSF Portlets (I'll do this one if folks are interested) JSF 1.2 Again, please respond if you will attend and if you can lead a discussion. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert
RE: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
We are using Tomcat 6. We have funded most of the development of that. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthias Wessendorf Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:24 AM To: MyFaces Development Subject: Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting Stan- Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. It also means that I can be reassigned to other JSF-related projects. Which web-container you are using inside of JBoss? Is Tomcat 6 or Jetty already JEE5 compliant (and stable)? 1) I will commit the 1.2 code that I have already written. It is fairly substantial and should give MyFaces a good head start on 1.2 compliance. good -Matthias
RE: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
You mentioned that this decision was because of time and resources. There is no reason to doubt, of course. Stan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your contributions and thank you for your offer to commit the 1.2 stuff. Perhaps you where a little bit frustrated to get not much support from the community the last weeks. Ok, our fault. But, hey, this is Apache open source land. Many of us have day jobs not directly related to MyFaces. No, it had nothing to do with frustration on my part. I totally understand what it's like to do open source on nights and weekends. I don't fault anyone at MyFaces. It really wasn't my decision to make. But, there was no way to make an argument that spending 60 hours a week on MyFaces was a good use of my time. I have a responsibility to do right by my employer. However, supporting Apache MyFaces further on would have been a strong signal from JBoss to the open source community. Too bad. I do differ with you there. You don't get more open source community than JBoss. We live it, breathe it, eat it, and feed our children with it. We've proven that you don't have to just do open source on nights and weekends. You can make it your day job. More developers should insist on spending their time doing what they love instead of being stuck in boring IT jobs. To that end, I will now be able to work on open source projects that expand the usefulness of JSF in general. I'm sorry if the MyFaces core impl suffers, but the overall community actually benefits. I want to reiterate - this has nothing to do with our opinion of MyFaces or Apache. The whole effort just wasn't making a lot of sense. I still think MyFaces is cool, for lots of reasons. Regards, Manfred On 5/9/06, Stan Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have some news for everyone. The JavaOne Committers/Contributors meeting is cancelled - at least for me. I won't be attending JavaOne this year. Since nobody from JBoss will be at the MyFaces meeting, I don't think JBoss will be able to sponsor the event. If you still want the meeting to happen I will find out if the room is cancelled or not. If the room is cancelled then maybe another company can pick up the cost. It wasn't very expensive (I think around $500). Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. It also means that I can be reassigned to other JSF-related projects. There is some good news: 1) I will commit the 1.2 code that I have already written. It is fairly substantial and should give MyFaces a good head start on 1.2 compliance. 2) Though I won't be as active as in the past few months, I'll still keep an eye on MyFaces work as time allows. 3) JBoss is upping its involvement in the JSF community. I can't say much at this point about that. You probably already know about JBoss Seam, but there is more cool JSF stuff where that came from. Best regards, Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert From: Stan Silvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:54 PM To: MyFaces Development Subject: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting In addition to the dinner, it sounded like there was interest in a MyFaces Committers and Contributors meeting. Please let me know if you are coming and if you are willing to lead a discussion. I got JBoss to sponsor the meeting and we now have a room booked for 20- 30 people at the Hotel Palomar (across the street from the Marriott). We are booked on Wednesday, the 17th: - 20-30 people classroom style so you all will have desks - afternoon from 1pm to 5pm - 3pm break with refreshments - sodas and water. Maybe some light snacks? - LCD projector, one microphone, a screen and wireless mouse I'm open to the format, but I was thinking we could do it BOF-style with some short presentations and lots of QA. Here are some suggestions for topics: Project History and Overview (Manfred, would you be willing to do this one?) Project Infrastructure (SVN tips?, MVN tips?, How stuff is organized. Future Plans for component unification?) Tomahawk Tobago ADF The JSF Community and Ecosystem JSF Portlets (I'll do this one if folks are interested) JSF 1.2 Again, please respond if you will attend and if you can lead a discussion. Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Stan's cycles aside, it's probably just a case of JBoss wanting to have all of their ducks in order for their next AS release. Going with the 'stable' RI 1.2 right now is one issue they don't need to worry about in the immediate future. That's not to say that JBoss couldn't easily switch over to MyFaces 1.2 a little later based on community support. I've been reading about some of the state saving/jboss serialization integration that the myfaces devs were looking at, and it's those kinds of commitments that could quickly place MyFaces 1.2 in a preferred position for AS integration once you reach 1.2 compliance. Stan Silvert wrote: You mentioned that this decision was because of time and resources. There is no reason to doubt, of course. Stan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your contributions and thank you for your offer to commit the 1.2 stuff. Perhaps you where a little bit frustrated to get not much support from the community the last weeks. Ok, our fault. But, hey, this is Apache open source land. Many of us have day jobs not directly related to MyFaces. No, it had nothing to do with frustration on my part. I totally understand what it's like to do open source on nights and weekends. I don't fault anyone at MyFaces. It really wasn't my decision to make. But, there was no way to make an argument that spending 60 hours a week on MyFaces was a good use of my time. I have a responsibility to do right by my employer. However, supporting Apache MyFaces further on would have been a strong signal from JBoss to the open source community. Too bad. I do differ with you there. You don't get more open source community than JBoss. We live it, breathe it, eat it, and feed our children with it. We've proven that you don't have to just do open source on nights and weekends. You can make it your day job. More developers should insist on spending their time doing what they love instead of being stuck in boring IT jobs. To that end, I will now be able to work on open source projects that expand the usefulness of JSF in general. I'm sorry if the MyFaces core impl suffers, but the overall community actually benefits. I want to reiterate - this has nothing to do with our opinion of MyFaces or Apache. The whole effort just wasn't making a lot of sense. I still think MyFaces is cool, for lots of reasons. Regards, Manfred On 5/9/06, Stan Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have some news for everyone. The JavaOne Committers/Contributors meeting is cancelled - at least for me. I won't be attending JavaOne this year. Since nobody from JBoss will be at the MyFaces meeting, I don't think JBoss will be able to sponsor the event. If you still want the meeting to happen I will find out if the room is cancelled or not. If the room is cancelled then maybe another company can pick up the cost. It wasn't very expensive (I think around $500). Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. It also means that I can be reassigned to other JSF-related projects. There is some good news: 1) I will commit the 1.2 code that I have already written. It is fairly substantial and should give MyFaces a good head start on 1.2 compliance. 2) Though I won't be as active as in the past few months, I'll still keep an eye on MyFaces work as time allows. 3) JBoss is upping its involvement in the JSF community. I can't say much at this point about that. You probably already know about JBoss Seam, but there is more cool JSF stuff where that came from. Best regards, Stan Silvert JBoss, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] callto://stansilvert From: Stan Silvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:54 PM To: MyFaces Development Subject: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting In addition to the dinner, it sounded like there was interest in a MyFaces Committers and Contributors meeting. Please let me know if you are coming and if you are willing to lead a discussion. I got JBoss to sponsor the meeting and we now have a room booked for 20- 30 people at the Hotel Palomar (across the street from the Marriott). We are booked on Wednesday, the 17th: - 20-30 people classroom style so you all will have desks - afternoon from 1pm to 5pm - 3pm break with refreshments - sodas and water. Maybe some light snacks? - LCD projector, one microphone, a screen and wireless mouse I'm open to the format, but I was thinking we could do it BOF-style with some short presentations
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Dennis Byrne schrieb: Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving. Btw. if anyone has not noticed yet, Craig pointed out at JAX a huge political issue with JSF 1.2 As of JEE 5 the webcontainers are not allowed in their classloader hierarchy to make the jsf implementation overridable via a WEB-INF/lib jsf (as far as I understood, Craig correct me there if I am wrong). So it will become way harder to push a new jsf implementation into a webapp as soon as an application moves from a plain servlet runner towards Tomcat. Werner
Re: Cancelled: JavaOne MyFaces Committers/Contributors meeting
Also, JBoss has decided to use the RI instead of MyFaces for JBoss 5. The decision was purely one of time and resources. By shipping the RI we will be able to pass the JEE 5 TCK sooner. We need to branch for 1.2 and get moving. Dennis Byrne
