Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Mathias Bauer
Caolán McNamara wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 18:48 +0200, Ivo Hinkelmann wrote:
>> Hi Eike,
>> 
>> Eike Rathke wrote:
>> > 
>> > I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
>> > be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
>> > far future?
>> 
>> MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
>> module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 
> 
> On a not-really-semi-related topic, has anyone had a go at e.g.
> reseating the subprojects of sdext/swext/sccomp onto using the sdk
> makefiles and that sdk provided build-system system and move them out of
> the OOo svn project into top-level "independent" projects of their own ?

Currently we are reviewing the complete build process, including all
tools, the way we are using the SCM etc. As a part of this review we
will also have a look on how we can bring SDK and OOo build environment
together. Before someone jumps to conclusions: we are not thinking about
simply throwing out the SDK stuff and replacing it by the full-blown OOo
build environment with all its bells and whistles, we are thinking about
a more modular environment that can be customized to the particular
needs. The things you mentioned fit nicely into these considerations,
and this is also true for Ivo's work that started this thread. (BTW: I
think that this is awesome work and it is definitely a first step into
the right direction.)

An announcement for the build environment review/rework and how people
can contribute to it, either by giving input or by helping us doing the
work, will follow soon.

Regards,
Mathias

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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Mathias Bauer
Frank Schönheit - Sun Microsystems Germany wrote:

> Hi Ivo,
> 
>>> I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
>>> be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
>>> far future?
>> 
>> MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
>> module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 
> 
> Don't think this would be a good idea. I'd hate to deal with / build Yet
> Another 100MB monster if I just want to change a resource string in a
> project of mine.

This is a misunderstanding due to the very "reduced" version of my idea.

We have to balance two requirements: developers working on e.g. a dialog
may want to keep the english resources in their code module (you just
have proven that ;-)). OTOH developers building language packs would
welcome to get rid of the source trees.

There is a possible and clean way to fulfil both requirements, but it
would require some coding work: we could keep the resouces in the source
tree, but change the resource system in a way that the localizations
don't contain complete resources but only the strings. At runtime the
code then will always load the english resources and merges in all
localized strings. Another potential benefit: we could get rid of the
sdf format here and move to e.g. po files (or any other format that the
localization community might prefer).

So all code developers can work as they did before, localization
developers get rid of the source trees and - IMHO even more important -
of the RSC compiler and use a much easier processing. The price to pay
is a little bit coding work in tools/vcl and a few more CPU cycles to
burn when a dialog resource is loaded.

Ciao,
Mathias

-- 
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "nospamfor...@gmx.de".
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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Ivo Hinkelmann

Hi,

Frank Schönheit - Sun Microsystems Germany schrieb:

Hi Ivo,


I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
far future?
MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 


Don't think this would be a good idea. I'd hate to deal with / build Yet
Another 100MB monster if I just want to change a resource string in a
project of mine.


it is the question of the point of view. People who build languagepacks 
on a regular basis benefit a lot from this change. They don't have to 
check out the whole giant source tree, build the giant source tree etc 
... Would this hurt so much ?


Cheers,
Ivo

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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Juergen Schmidt

Caolán McNamara wrote:

On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 18:48 +0200, Ivo Hinkelmann wrote:

Hi Eike,

Eike Rathke wrote:

I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
far future?
MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 


On a not-really-semi-related topic, has anyone had a go at e.g.
reseating the subprojects of sdext/swext/sccomp onto using the sdk
makefiles and that sdk provided build-system system and move them out of
the OOo svn project into top-level "independent" projects of their own ?
i've brainstormed a little bit with MBA about aligning the SDK build env 
with the OO build env. The current gnu make based example build env 
seems to be simpler on the first look maybe, i am not sure but there is 
still some complexity in it. I would really like to benefit from a 
shared tiny config file for the compiler switches and maybe some 
component specific (well documented) targets.


But not the full blown one, a subset of them but using dmake and some 
extracted config files. The idea is to make it easier to get started 
with the SDK only and make it easy possible to include such projects 
later on in the normal office build.


Sometimes it might be a good idea to include such projects in the normal 
build and include this components directly in the office. On the other 
hand it would be nice to have them independent, especially for really 
specific stuff ...


Anyway we should keep in mind that it should be possible to have 
everything in one specific module. Think about NB or Eclipse extension 
projects.


Juergen



C.


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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Frank Schönheit - Sun Microsystems Germany
Hi Ivo,

>> I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
>> be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
>> far future?
> 
> MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
> module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 

Don't think this would be a good idea. I'd hate to deal with / build Yet
Another 100MB monster if I just want to change a resource string in a
project of mine.

JM2C

Ciao
Frank

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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-23 Thread Caolán McNamara
On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 18:48 +0200, Ivo Hinkelmann wrote:
> Hi Eike,
> 
> Eike Rathke wrote:
> > 
> > I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
> > be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
> > far future?
> 
> MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
> module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 

On a not-really-semi-related topic, has anyone had a go at e.g.
reseating the subprojects of sdext/swext/sccomp onto using the sdk
makefiles and that sdk provided build-system system and move them out of
the OOo svn project into top-level "independent" projects of their own ?

C.


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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Ivo Hinkelmann

Hi Rene,

Rene Engelhard wrote:

Hi,

Thorsten Ziehm wrote:

the goal to to build and deliver language packs without any
dependencies. This CWS is the first step. There are still some steps
open. But as I heard by Ivo, when this CWs is ready you can you can
build the localization without any obj's / libs / whatever. But the


[snip]


So there will be a benefit. ;-)


Though only a small one... :)


you can build language packs without the need of building all the objs 
of svx, sw , binfilter and friends ... thats is already a bigger 
benefit, esp. if you don't own a 16 core machine ;)


Cheers,
Ivo



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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Ivo Hinkelmann

Hi Eike,

Eike Rathke wrote:


I guess that for building a language pack the OOo source tree would not
be needed anymore, except maybe a few modules, is still a wish for the
far future?


MBA had the idea to move also all resource source files into a own 
module but we first need to discuss this a bit further 


Cheers,
Ivo



  Eike




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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Rene Engelhard
Hi,

Thorsten Ziehm wrote:
> the goal to to build and deliver language packs without any
> dependencies. This CWS is the first step. There are still some steps
> open. But as I heard by Ivo, when this CWs is ready you can you can
> build the localization without any obj's / libs / whatever. But the

Except transex3, rsc etc. but that its unavoidable, I agree :) [1]

> source code is still needed in this step.

So it doesn't help, as you need a full copy of the stuff anyway and thus
also could just build it with the rest of the office And our FTP
people won't allow a second copy of the OOo source in the archive just
to build the translations out of it...

> So there will be a benefit. ;-)

Though only a small one... :)

Regards,

Rene

[1] packagers probably can work around it, though


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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Thorsten Ziehm

Hi Rene,

the goal to to build and deliver language packs without any
dependencies. This CWS is the first step. There are still some steps
open. But as I heard by Ivo, when this CWs is ready you can you can
build the localization without any obj's / libs / whatever. But the
source code is still needed in this step.

So there will be a benefit. ;-)

Thorsten


Rene Engelhard wrote:

Hi,

Thorsten Ziehm wrote:

Ivo and others are working on it to realize it in the near future ;-)
http://eis.services.openoffice.org/EIS2/cws.ShowCWS?Path=DEV300%2Fl10nframework01


How is that helpful?

#build the l10n tools
cd transex3 && build --all && deliver
cd xmlhelp  && build --all && deliver
cd rsc  && build --all && deliver

OK. Obvious.

# build only l10n targets , skip HID generation
cd instsetoo_native && build --all L10N_framework=1 NO_HIDS=1

Why -all? Just for completeness and because you need some stuff for packaging?
Or do we really need *all* the other modoules? This effectively needing
the whole source tree anyway?

What we need to have and what was Eikes question aboiut was to just need:

cd l10n && build --all && deliver


if that works out, fine. If not, that issue isn't what we talk about.

Regards,

Rene

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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Frank Schönheit - Sun Microsystems Germany
>> the DEV300 m51 milestones contains the cws l10ncleanup04 that moves
>> all the translations that are spread over the office code to the new
>> module "l10n".
> 
> Hey, wow, finally, well done! :-)
> 
> Good news; not only for translators, but also for developers because now
> a recursive grep for some resource ID in the source directories doesn't
> produce a gazillion lines with localize.sdf content anymore.

Indeed, that's great news, thanks!

> And if one
> wants to know to which source code module a certain dialog's message
> belongs, it should be possible to grep that from the one
> l10n/source/*/localize.sdf file. Just not for en-US :-(  Well, en-GB
> most times probably will deliver the result.

http://grok.services.openoffice.org :)

Ciao
Frank

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Re: [dev] Re: [l10n-dev] Localisation moved into own module

2009-06-22 Thread Rene Engelhard
Hi,

Thorsten Ziehm wrote:
> Ivo and others are working on it to realize it in the near future ;-)
> http://eis.services.openoffice.org/EIS2/cws.ShowCWS?Path=DEV300%2Fl10nframework01

How is that helpful?

#build the l10n tools
cd transex3 && build --all && deliver
cd xmlhelp  && build --all && deliver
cd rsc  && build --all && deliver

OK. Obvious.

# build only l10n targets , skip HID generation
cd instsetoo_native && build --all L10N_framework=1 NO_HIDS=1

Why -all? Just for completeness and because you need some stuff for packaging?
Or do we really need *all* the other modoules? This effectively needing
the whole source tree anyway?

What we need to have and what was Eikes question aboiut was to just need:

cd l10n && build --all && deliver


if that works out, fine. If not, that issue isn't what we talk about.

Regards,

Rene

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