Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
It is really difficult to answer two really different needs: - a map for mappers: so that they can quickly see their contributions, - a map for non-mappers: here some less cluttered rendering is needed, and different styles needed depending of the use I've always considered the default osm.org map rendering as a work rendering, mainly designed for the mappers and that's what I explain when people are a bit negative about it. A good move has been to add zoom 19 on osm.org, it answers a need for mappers in very dense area where overlapping features could not be rendered at zoom 18. I've forked the osm-carto style for OSM-FR and to try to address both need (a generic map for non mappers and a detailed one for mappers) here is what I've mainly done: - have better looking first zooms: for example use a lowzoom bitmap of landuse (based on an idea from Frederik Ramm), fill empty area with village names, add some geographic toponyms like main islands, archipelago, etc - simplify intermediate zooms: automatic abreviation of names, use of meaningful localized symbols - show more details on additional zooms (19 and 20) You can see the result on http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=5lat=47.71461lon=3.04866 Some parts could be reused for osm.org (first zooms for example). ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Christoph Hormann wrote It always amazes me how much the map style influences the mapping practice, not only by obvious tagging for the renderer but also in the form of subtle priorities. Having two separate styles - a 'data verification' style and a 'presentation style' would help reducing this effect. It is an interesting question if that would be indeed the case. I believe that one of the main motivating factors for many mappers for putting in all the effort of mapping is the reward of contributing to something important and big and being able to be proud of the result. That is imho why you see those subtle shifts in priority depending on what is displayed on the main map. It is simply more rewarding to work on something that is perceived to be more meaningful. However, for this to work, the main style needs to have a certain popularity among end users including being embedded into third party websites. If you now split the styles into one presentation style and a data verification style, then the data verification style instantly looses that appeal as it will only be viewed by a few. Recently there has been a lot of talk about gameification of OSM. In my opinion, one of the most powerful gameifications of OSM has been to have a prominent map shown on osm.org and have it update on a minutely basis. It really is a rather powerful reward to see your effort being directly incorporated into the in production map within minutes which can and _is_ viewed by millions of people. It is likely a much stronger reward than any artificial badge or points and has the advantage it is much less likely that people will manipulate things to game the system. Well, I guess you do get gaming the system to some degree as well in form of mapping for the renderer. So I think the main map really does need to strike a delegate balance between, and cater for both the presentation style and data verification style despite the fact that they are somewhat contradictory. Imho, the solution of cleaning up the low zoom tiles to look good for general use and then increasing or at least maintaining the detail on z18, z19 (and z20) is perhaps the best compromise we can achieve. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Default-map-style-on-osm-org-tp5775267p5775543.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
I think it would be fun/good to have the default map be a simple wireframe render (maybe with all the attributes shown as labels, and allowing overlapping of them). It wouldn't be the best map, but it would point out we have an incredible amount of data and that's what OSM is firstly about. The website should then clearly point people to some other layers/renders though. I don't think there is a public tileserver that is wireframe though, let alone one that meets the guidelines for inclusion on osm.org. On 29 August 2013 19:12, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: Christoph Hormann wrote It always amazes me how much the map style influences the mapping practice, not only by obvious tagging for the renderer but also in the form of subtle priorities. Having two separate styles - a 'data verification' style and a 'presentation style' would help reducing this effect. It is an interesting question if that would be indeed the case. I believe that one of the main motivating factors for many mappers for putting in all the effort of mapping is the reward of contributing to something important and big and being able to be proud of the result. That is imho why you see those subtle shifts in priority depending on what is displayed on the main map. It is simply more rewarding to work on something that is perceived to be more meaningful. However, for this to work, the main style needs to have a certain popularity among end users including being embedded into third party websites. If you now split the styles into one presentation style and a data verification style, then the data verification style instantly looses that appeal as it will only be viewed by a few. Recently there has been a lot of talk about gameification of OSM. In my opinion, one of the most powerful gameifications of OSM has been to have a prominent map shown on osm.org and have it update on a minutely basis. It really is a rather powerful reward to see your effort being directly incorporated into the in production map within minutes which can and _is_ viewed by millions of people. It is likely a much stronger reward than any artificial badge or points and has the advantage it is much less likely that people will manipulate things to game the system. Well, I guess you do get gaming the system to some degree as well in form of mapping for the renderer. So I think the main map really does need to strike a delegate balance between, and cater for both the presentation style and data verification style despite the fact that they are somewhat contradictory. Imho, the solution of cleaning up the low zoom tiles to look good for general use and then increasing or at least maintaining the detail on z18, z19 (and z20) is perhaps the best compromise we can achieve. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Default-map-style-on-osm-org-tp5775267p5775543.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On Thursday 29 August 2013, Kai Krueger wrote: [...] It really is a rather powerful reward to see your effort being directly incorporated into the in production map within minutes which can and _is_ viewed by millions of people. This i can very much agree with. My idea of a separate data verification map was not meant as a purely technical display without any concern for practical usability. I could also phrase it differently: Having two different but both real time updated maps would help communicating to the mapper that the purpose of the data is not just to produce a single map. Seeing how the same features and tags affect the result in the two maps in different ways could make people more aware of this. And for this purpose it would not matter too much in what ways the two map styles differ. Imho, the solution of cleaning up the low zoom tiles to look good for general use and then increasing or at least maintaining the detail on z18, z19 (and z20) is perhaps the best compromise we can achieve. One problem with having a style with strong differences between zoom levels is that the map scale is strongly varying across the map. z18 at the equator is the same as z15 in northern Canada. So when peaks for example get displayed starting with z11 and get labels at z13 this works nicely at low to moderate latitudes but is pointless at high latitudes (once you see the peak you usually see nothing but the peak) meaning the reward of seeing your efforts incorporated into the production map is much less in those areas. Greetings, -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 28 August 2013 12:02, Peter K peat...@yahoo.de wrote: Or at least: will this default style be further developed and improved? See the following video for some background regarding the current state of the main map style http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093876 Since the conference, the new openstreetmap-carto stylesheets are now live, and many small improvements are starting to show up. Thanks, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Hi, On 08/28/2013 01:02 PM, Peter K wrote: too many unimportant information are packed on especially the higher zoom levels (smaller than 12). If you follow these lists for a while (and possibly the enhancement requests filed in trac or github for the map style) then you will see that we have many many people keen on adding more and more detail to the map. We're trying to keep the default map usable but at the same time it is also used by mappers to get feedback on their edits; cartographically cleansing the map would probably mean disappointing many mappers. It's a thin and difficult line, and something that is prettier (or cartographically more appealing) need not automatically be the better solution for our default map. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 2013-08-28 13:02, Peter K wrote: Hi there, I know that this is highly subjective: But why has the default map style to be that ugly? I don't mean it as a rant, I know how difficult it is to create something like this. I only say that it is 'ugly' because I know there are a lot better and several alternatives. What do I mean with 'ugly'? I mean, besides the ugly bing-magenta for country lines and some texts the style is very confusing - too many unimportant information are packed on especially the higher zoom levels (smaller than 12). Or the contrast to see main roads is just too low. Not sure. As you say: it's highly subjective. I have no problem with the default OSM style at all. The only thing is that from zooms 8 and lower I think the landuse may be less prominent. Some time ago someone showed a new lowzoom renderer that looked rather nice. I also don't see a big difference between the .de and the default map. The two differences are that .de has red-yellow motorways (in the style of a lot of paper maps) and that the general theme is less red and more green. Maarten ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Hi Andy, hi Frederik, hi Maarten, I know that this is highly subjective: But why has the default map style to be that ugly? I don't mean it as a rant, I know how difficult it is to create something like this. I only say that it is 'ugly' because I know there are a lot better and several alternatives. What do I mean with 'ugly'? I mean, besides the ugly bing-magenta for country lines and some texts the style is very confusing - too many unimportant information are packed on especially the higher zoom levels (smaller than 12). Or the contrast to see main roads is just too low. Not sure. As you say: it's highly subjective. I have no problem with the default OSM style at all. The only thing is that from zooms 8 and lower I think the landuse may be less prominent. Some time ago someone showed a new lowzoom renderer that looked rather nice. I also don't see a big difference between the .de and the default map. The two differences are that .de has red-yellow motorways (in the style of a lot of paper maps) and that the general theme is less red and more green. Yes, .de and default are not that different. But I think .de is one step into a good direction with somehow more contrast colours. And yes, the landuse is also one thing which is confusing to me (and others). If you follow these lists for a while (and possibly the enhancement requests filed in trac or github for the map style) then you will see that we have many many people keen on adding more and more detail to the map. Exactly that is what is the problem: too detailed on overview zoom levels. But it is good to hear that there will be progress on the style - not only on the internals (which is of course really great - see below). We're trying to keep the default map usable but at the same time it is also used by mappers to get feedback on their edits; Ok, that is an argument. But I expect mappers to be able to switch the layer in their settings in comparison to an average 'luser'. See the following video for some background regarding the current state of the main map style http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093876 Since the conference, the new openstreetmap-carto stylesheets are now live, and many small improvements are starting to show up. I know. This is a really nice direction and lots of possibilities are opened via this. But I've always heard/read that the style has to stay the same. Could it be an option with Carto-CSS (in the future) that the default style is less detailed and mappers can enable this if they want? Who can decide and develop this in the future? Regards, Peter. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Peter K schrieb am 28.08.2013 17:05: See the following video for some background regarding the current state of the main map style http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093876 Since the conference, the new openstreetmap-carto stylesheets are now live, and many small improvements are starting to show up. I know. This is a really nice direction and lots of possibilities are opened via this. But I've always heard/read that the style has to stay the same. Could it be an option with Carto-CSS (in the future) that the default style is less detailed and mappers can enable this if they want? Who can decide and develop this in the future? I think the rewrite in carto wanted to maintain the visual result to be sure to be able to switch the main rendering. Otherwise the switch could be stopped by some for visual reasons. After the switch we have now a far better basis to discuss the content/map features to show. -- greetings Holger Jeromin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 28 August 2013 16:05, Peter K peat...@yahoo.de wrote: But I've always heard/read that the style has to stay the same. And where did you hear that? It's not something I've heard before. Who can decide and develop this in the future? That would be me, and whoever else contributes to the style. Of course, we all listen to feedback too. Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 28 August 2013 16:26, Holger Jeromin mailgm...@katur.de wrote: I think the rewrite in carto wanted to maintain the visual result to be sure to be able to switch the main rendering. Otherwise the switch could be stopped by some for visual reasons. Good point - that's probably the source of the confusion. Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Peter K peat...@yahoo.de wrote: I know that this is highly subjective: But why has the default map style to be that ugly? I don't mean it as a rant, I know how difficult it is to create something like this. I only say that it is 'ugly' because I know there are a lot better and several alternatives. [...] I think that being pretty is not the goal of the default map style at all. The primary goal of the default style is to expose as much of the OSM data as possible. And because of that, you will eventually run out of colors, line styles, icons, and such elements to display leading to clutter and places where there is not enough contrast (such as trunk roads alongside forests). As Frederik mentioned, the default style is a mapper's map. It's there to provide instant feedback to mapping efforts. That said, I could agree that for first-time and maybe non logged-in users, we can show a prettier map. And for logged-in users, provide them with the option to select the default map layer. Also, the default mapper's style could still use some improvement on the aesthetics department. Now that the style sheet has been ported to CartoCSS, I would expect improvements to be done. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Hi, On 08/28/2013 05:05 PM, Peter K wrote: We're trying to keep the default map usable but at the same time it is also used by mappers to get feedback on their edits; Ok, that is an argument. But I expect mappers to be able to switch the layer in their settings in comparison to an average 'luser'. Well in addition to wanting to see their own edits, mappers are also proud of their work and want others to see it. Therefore removing anything from the limelight that is openstreetmap.org and stowing it into an expert-only layer, however sensible from a cartographic standpoint, is always going to meet resistance - and re-open the old question of whom the openstreetmap.org map is for. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 28 August 2013 16:48, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: I think that being pretty is not the goal of the default map style at all. The primary goal of the default style is to expose as much of the OSM data as possible. That's widely held opinion, but there's an equally sized opinion that would heartily disagree. The cartography work that I do is not intended as a simplistic multicoloured visualisation of the database. It's a map, and cartographic decisions about what to show, and what to leave out, are key to its success. Expose as much of the OSM data as possible is only a goal with a sufficiently loose definition of 'as possible'. Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On Wednesday 28 August 2013, Andy Allan wrote: I think that being pretty is not the goal of the default map style at all. The primary goal of the default style is to expose as much of the OSM data as possible. That's widely held opinion, but there's an equally sized opinion that would heartily disagree. That's probably to some extent because the main map serves a double purpose: For the user of the map and for the mapper. Both these uses have their own requirements which are not always identical. It always amazes me how much the map style influences the mapping practice, not only by obvious tagging for the renderer but also in the form of subtle priorities. Having two separate styles - a 'data verification' style and a 'presentation style' would help reducing this effect. Another problem is that a consistent and asthetic map design is difficult to achieve with a large number of people working on it together. On the other hand with few people making the design decisions there is inevitably a bias in decisions what is prominently visible and what not (which as said above has a significant influence back on the mapping practice). Greetings, -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Am 28.08.2013 17:33, schrieb Andy Allan: On 28 August 2013 16:26, Holger Jeromin mailgm...@katur.de wrote: I think the rewrite in carto wanted to maintain the visual result to be sure to be able to switch the main rendering. Otherwise the switch could be stopped by some for visual reasons. Good point - that's probably the source of the confusion. Yeah, that was the source of confusion. Also it is nice to hear that you're open to change and some people agree with me that osm.org needs one style for the normal user and one for the mapper. The primary goal of the default style is to expose as much of the OSM data as possible. I see osm.org as the main reference for OpenStreetMap. And everytime I suggest friends to have a look at this great source of information I hear it is not clear or even ugly. Also they miss a router but that is another topic ;) I think (and it would probably be also in the sense of all mappers) that OSM should gain even more (at)traction. And to do this one simple thing could be to improve the default style. As Frederik mentioned, the default style is a mapper's map. It's there to provide instant feedback to mapping efforts. Why? Who decides this? Why not a normal user map as default and the mapper can choose its own preferred layer? This decission process is not clear to me here at OSM. Not to bash this and the community of course! Is there some process how to establish consent? Could it be probably easier for all to handle it like the Apache Foundation ... ? Regards, Peter. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
On 08/28/2013 09:05 PM, Peter K wrote: As Frederik mentioned, the default style is a mapper's map. It's there to provide instant feedback to mapping efforts. Why? Who decides this? Why not a normal user map as default and the mapper can choose its own preferred layer? There is no such formal decision. A user-oriented map style is not done because nobody has stand up to actually do it, and have done it, simply. Yves ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Default map style on osm.org
Il giorno 28/ago/2013, alle ore 21:14, yvecai yve...@gmail.com ha scritto: There is no such formal decision. A user-oriented map style is not done because nobody has stand up to actually do it, and have done it, simply. there used to be one (osmarender tiles@home), but the crowd sourced rendering was not very efficient and had some limitations (xslt transformations of osm-xml without a db and spatial functions) and when the t@h maintainer finally resigned it wasn't continued. That style was particularly ugly in high zoom levels, but it was interesting and showed much more stuff than the mapnik of these days... cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
