Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[White, Langdon]

On Jun 21, 2014 12:26 PM, "Rahul Sundaram"  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>>
>> what you or i prefer don't matter
>
>
> Sure it does.  Otherwise you would not insist that your perspective is
the only right one and everyone else who has a different perspective is
always "wrong" in any such discussion.
>
>>
>> the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just
>> react on the "new updates are available" in the GUI
>
>
> I have been dealing with user questions in Fedora for around 10 years now
and I would disagree with that assertion.  We never really managed to
attract a large crowd of regular consumers to Fedora who preferred the
graphical interfaces for updates and the interfaces have been pretty poor
despite several revisions (up2date, pup, gpk-update etc).  It might be
change with better software managers now but I suspect that most of our
"regular" users are in fact using the command line for updates at this
point.
>
> Rahul

Now that the gui updater *requires* a reboot, I don't even use the gui when
I get the system notification (which I used to do unless I needed to do
something special).

Langdon
>
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Miroslav Suchý]

On 06/20/2014 09:10 AM, Jan Zelený wrote:

Dnf doesn't know anything about your network connection and I'm not even sure
it should ... I can imagine a high level orchestration tool for the entire
system to do stuff like this but that's out of our scope.


I just filed NetworkManager RFE
RFE: add attribute "limited data" to connection and expose it via API/DBUS
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1112230

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:

>
> what you or i prefer don't matter
>

Sure it does.  Otherwise you would not insist that your perspective is the
only right one and everyone else who has a different perspective is always
"wrong" in any such discussion.


> the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just
> react on the "new updates are available" in the GUI
>

I have been dealing with user questions in Fedora for around 10 years now
and I would disagree with that assertion.  We never really managed to
attract a large crowd of regular consumers to Fedora who preferred the
graphical interfaces for updates and the interfaces have been pretty poor
despite several revisions (up2date, pup, gpk-update etc).  It might be
change with better software managers now but I suspect that most of our
"regular" users are in fact using the command line for updates at this
point.

Rahul
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Tim Lauridsen]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Zdenek Kabelac  wrote:

> Also for years Debian supplies short update 'diffs' - so user doesn't have
> to download multiple MB sized files - just couple short small files - again
> something much nicer then running a daemon to download tens of MB on
> background daily...


dnf/yum don't download metadata if it is not changed, the download a small
repod.xml file with checksum and other stuff, metadata is only updated when
the metadata in cache don't
match the ones in the remoted repositories.

Updates are only push once a day, and have to sync out to the mirrors, so
there is no reason to check for metadata every 10 min og every time dnf is
run.
both yum/dnf has settings to control how often the remote repos is checked
for changes, so it can be configured by the user is they don't like tge
default setting.
delta metadata is on the wishlist for dnf, but it is hard to get it to work
in good way.

Tim
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[poma]

On 21.06.2014 03:03, Dan Williams wrote:

On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote:

On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote:

On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote:

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
wrote:


if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie



This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
developers liers doesn't help the situation any.



if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
upgrade"
for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are



Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to
do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
(or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
requirements.

Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
(especially from people coming from another package management system) is
that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
needs.




and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not



I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.


It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
(like packagekit does).


Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py

Dan




This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only 
click your heels three times and repeat, "There's no place like home."


Certainly.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if
we can't achieve the stars.  So I think there's a ton of value in doing
this despite the fact that we can't be perfect.

Dan



Your fame is well deserved, Spaniard.
However, a sensible default is what it is.


poma


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 21.06.2014 17:20, schrieb drago01:
> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>>
>> Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>>> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>>
>>> stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't
>>> have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are
>>> the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet
>>> don't need prefetch of metadata at all?
>>>
>>> Even if I have a fast connection,  I prefer metadata refreshes to happen 
>>> automatically in the background and
>>> consider it as a useful optimization.  I would disable that service in a 
>>> server perhaps and that is something for
>>> the server product to consider
>>
>> what you or i prefer don't matter
>>
>> the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just
>> react on the "new updates are available" in the GUI - fine that
>> runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster
>> in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata
>> and not previously cached ones
> 
> Well there is not much difference between a few hours old metadata and
> "fresh" metadata. You might as well hit a mirror that is a few hours
> behind in syncing 

and that is the difference

if i type "dnf upgrade" because at the moment i have time and
would apply available updates due a cigarette break and get
metadata downloaded at that moment the mirror is more likely
not behind compared to denf refreshed in background before

not only only i did "rm -rf /var/cache/yum/*; yum upgrade"
because i knew there where a security relevant update multiple
times and then it was visible

another things whis pisses me personally is the size of the
metadat at all - that are some hundret MB not worth lying
around unused - but as said: i disable that behavior and
that's it for me - the decision need to manually disable
it remains wrong



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[drago01]

On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
> Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't
>> have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are
>> the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet
>> don't need prefetch of metadata at all?
>>
>> Even if I have a fast connection,  I prefer metadata refreshes to happen 
>> automatically in the background and
>> consider it as a useful optimization.  I would disable that service in a 
>> server perhaps and that is something for
>> the server product to consider
>
> what you or i prefer don't matter
>
> the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just
> react on the "new updates are available" in the GUI - fine that
> runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster
> in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata
> and not previously cached ones

Well there is not much difference between a few hours old metadata and
"fresh" metadata. You might as well hit a mirror that is a few hours
behind in syncing 
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 21.06.2014 16:42, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't
> have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are
> the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet
> don't need prefetch of metadata at all?  
> 
> Even if I have a fast connection,  I prefer metadata refreshes to happen 
> automatically in the background and
> consider it as a useful optimization.  I would disable that service in a 
> server perhaps and that is something for
> the server product to consider

what you or i prefer don't matter

the ordinary user never uses yum/dnf at all and most of them just
react on the "new updates are available" in the GUI - fine that
runs completly in the background - there is no slower/faster
in that context and most ohters case about *fresh* metadata
and not previously cached ones

however, it's even not worth to get angry about another
wrong default decision and i juest fix the settings at
my own



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Rahul Sundaram]

HI


On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:

> stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't
> have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are
> the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet
> don't need prefetch of metadata at all?
>

Even if I have a fast connection,  I prefer metadata refreshes to happen
automatically in the background and consider it as a useful optimization.
I would disable that service in a server perhaps and that is something for
the server product to consider.

Rahul
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 21.06.2014 03:03, schrieb Dan Williams:
> On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote:
>> This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you 
>> can only click your heels three times and repeat, "There's no place like 
>> home."
> 
> Certainly.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if
> we can't achieve the stars.  So I think there's a ton of value in doing
> this despite the fact that we can't be perfect

stop the automatic bandwidth wasting at all and you don't
have to fix anything - don't you realize that this 50% are
the ones with the slow WAN and the ones with fast internet
don't need prefetch of metadata at all?

at least stop todo that as default

where are the times gone people made smart decisions instead
try to make everybody happy and be it with wrong technical
decisions - that won't lead to a Linux marketshare of 90%
and it's disgusting professionals




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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Dan Williams]

On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 23:27 +0200, poma wrote:
> On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote:
> > On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> >>  wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> >>> wrote:
> 
>  if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make 
> >>> package
> >>> installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
> >>> developers liers doesn't help the situation any.
> >>>
> 
>  if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
>  upgrade"
>  for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough 
> >>> to
> >>> do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
> >>> enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
> >>> retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
> >>> lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
> >>> engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
> >>> consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
> >>> (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
> >>> user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
> >>> requirements.
> >>>
> >>> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> >>> (especially from people coming from another package management system) is
> >>> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
> >>> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
> >>> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings 
> >>> so
> >>> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
> >>> needs.
> >>>
> 
> 
>  and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as 
> >>> I've
> >>> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in 
> >>> the
> >>> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
> >>> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> >>> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> >>
> >> It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> >> (like packagekit does).
> >
> > Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here:
> >
> > http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> 
> This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you 
> can only click your heels three times and repeat, "There's no place like 
> home."

Certainly.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix 50%, even if
we can't achieve the stars.  So I think there's a ton of value in doing
this despite the fact that we can't be perfect.

Dan

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[poma]

On 20.06.2014 17:55, Dan Williams wrote:

On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote:

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
wrote:


if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie



This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
developers liers doesn't help the situation any.



if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
upgrade"
for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are



Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to
do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
(or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
requirements.

Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
(especially from people coming from another package management system) is
that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
needs.




and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not



I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.


It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
(like packagekit does).


Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py

Dan




This is super duper, however if wwan is on the router as Ranhald wrote, you can only 
click your heels three times and repeat, "There's no place like home."


poma


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Dan Williams]

On Fri, 2014-06-20 at 08:55 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
> >
> >
> > This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
> > installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
> > developers liers doesn't help the situation any.
> >
> >>
> >> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
> >> upgrade"
> >> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
> >
> >
> > Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to
> > do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
> > enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
> > retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
> > lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
> > engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
> > consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
> > (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
> > user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
> > requirements.
> >
> > Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> > (especially from people coming from another package management system) is
> > that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
> > DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
> > it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
> > that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
> > needs.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> >
> >
> > I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
> > been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
> > past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
> > wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> > understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> 
> It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> (like packagekit does).

Python + D-Bus example for detecting WWAN NetworkManager 0.9+ is here:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/tree/examples/python/dbus/is-wwan-default.py

Dan


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Zdenek Kabelac]

Dne 20.6.2014 15:52, Chuck Anderson napsal(a):

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 02:39:25PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:

On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen:

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore mailto:den...@ausil.us>> wrote:

 In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf 
update" purely because I found most of
 the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata 
behind the scenes just doesn't work
 right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is 
trying to give.

 Dennis


Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is 
newer than the cached one.

so.

dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed


*that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes



I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background
refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is
up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current).
This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a
fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there
are not updates available when this is in fact not true.


Agreed.  In fact, when I'm doing updates (which doesn't happen as
frequently as it should due to the disruption to work it causes) I
want to be absolutely sure I'm not working out of a stale cache--I
often do "yum clean expire-cache; yum update" since I know I can trust
that to give me the latest updates.  It would be nice if I could just
trust dnf to do the right thing without resorting to extra command
line arguments.




Well I'm still curious why everyone solves upgrade of metadata, but every 
developer of yum and dnf stays pretty much away of any  'error-case' handling 
situation.


So whenever there is some crash fault during upgrade the installation is left 
broken in the middle - and after decades of rpm/yum development there simply 
doesn't exist tool to fix it.  So yes - skilled user will deal with that, but

I'm pretty sure any unskilled one is directly heading to reinstall...

Also for years Debian supplies short update 'diffs' - so user doesn't have to 
download multiple MB sized files - just couple short small files - again 
something much nicer then running a daemon to download tens of MB on 
background daily...


Zdenek


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Chuck Anderson]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 02:39:25PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:
> On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote:
> > 
> > Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen:
> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && 
> >> dnf update" purely because I found most of
> >> the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the 
> >> metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work
> >> right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience 
> >> dnf is trying to give.
> >>
> >> Dennis
> >>
> >>
> >> Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata 
> >> is newer than the cached one.
> >>
> >> so.
> >>
> >> dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed
> > 
> > *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes
> > 
> 
> I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background
> refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is
> up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current).
> This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a
> fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there
> are not updates available when this is in fact not true.

Agreed.  In fact, when I'm doing updates (which doesn't happen as
frequently as it should due to the disruption to work it causes) I
want to be absolutely sure I'm not working out of a stale cache--I
often do "yum clean expire-cache; yum update" since I know I can trust
that to give me the latest updates.  It would be nice if I could just
trust dnf to do the right thing without resorting to extra command
line arguments.
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Dennis Jacobfeuerborn]

On 20.06.2014 14:11, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore > > wrote:
>>
>> In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf 
>> update" purely because I found most of
>> the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata 
>> behind the scenes just doesn't work
>> right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf 
>> is trying to give.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is 
>> newer than the cached one.
>>
>> so.
>>
>> dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed
> 
> *that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes
> 

I think these are two separate issues. Independent of the background
refreshes dnf should always check if its current view of the world is
up-to-date (that is the data in its cache is current).
This can be fairly important when it comes to security issues. When a
fatal exploit is fixed in a package you don't want dnf to say that there
are not updates available when this is in fact not true.

Regards,
  Dennis
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 14:04, schrieb Tim Lauridsen:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore  > wrote:
> 
> In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf 
> update" purely because I found most of
> the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me dnf fetching the metadata 
> behind the scenes just doesn't work
> right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf 
> is trying to give.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> 
> Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata is 
> newer than the cached one.
> 
> so.
> 
> dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed

*that* would be a useful default instead background-refreshes



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Tim Lauridsen]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Gilmore  wrote:

> In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf
> update" purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of
> date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work
> right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is
> trying to give.
>
> Dennis
>

Dnf-0.5.2 has a --refresh option, there will a check if the repo metadata
is newer than the cached one.

so.

dnf update --refresh will check and update metadata if needed.

Tim
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 13:13, schrieb drago01:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Reindl Harald  
> wrote:
>> your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
> 
> As he said there is a NM API but it is indeed somehow limited as the
> example you mentioned shows also it (currently) won't work for a
> simpler case ... tethered Android Phone over USB (because it looks
> like USB Ethernet).
> 
> But that does not mean that we should not try to limit the impact if
> we want to do the background download stuff (perfect is not the enemy
> of good)

one could simple disable such things as preload-metadata and spend
the time for it in more useful work and bugfixing

if you don't produce by the user unasked impact you don't need
to spend your time find out how limt that impact



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 13:04, schrieb Mat Booth:
> On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald  > wrote:
> 
> Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth:
> > On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald  
> > > how should it do that?
> > >
> > > it's imagination that any software knows anything about the 
> internet connection
> > > even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for 
> my LAN and so
> > > the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was 
> "appears to be slow"
> > >
> > > IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that 
> information
> >
> > from where should it get that information if your network 
> connection is
> > a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
> >
> > your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
> >
> > Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be "smart enough to 
> not do it on mobile broadband" to which you
> > asked "how?"
> >
> > I answered only that question
> 
> again:
> 
> * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection
> * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN
> * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection
> 
> believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a
> box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect
> your devices and have some hundret MB per month
> 
> in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction
> ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as
> OS supplier
> 
> Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions 
> because of a desire for perfection. Don't
> you agree that a good first step would be to teach DNF how to talk to 
> NetworkManager?
> 
> 3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the use 
> case of connecting with a 3G dongle or
> tethered mobile phone

i don't agree the whole idea to refresh metadata unasked in the background
as default only to pretend it's faster and repeatly download unused data
because nobody asked for it and maybe don't ask for days

so stop implement unnecessary overhead with questionable benefit would
prevent from all discussions where it's appropriate and how to find out
if it's appropriate

the imagination that people all day long running dnf/yum is somehow
strange *and* that people which are doing are anyways not interested
in metadata fetched a hour ago and clean it



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[drago01]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>
> Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
>> On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald > > wrote:
>>
>> Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
>> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
>> > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org>> wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
>> mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about 
>> yum
>> >> (especially from people coming from another package management 
>> system) is
>> >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata. 
>>  The
>> >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had 
>> solved
>> >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added 
>> settings so
>> >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our 
>> particular
>> >> needs.
>> >>
>> >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>> >>
>> >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, 
>> as I've
>> >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only 
>> in the
>> >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
>> >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
>> >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
>> >
>> > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
>> > (like packagekit does)
>>
>> how should it do that?
>>
>> it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet 
>> connection
>> even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and 
>> so
>> the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to be 
>> slow"
>>
>>
>> IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information
>
> from where should it get that information if your network connection is
> a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
>
> your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection

As he said there is a NM API but it is indeed somehow limited as the
example you mentioned shows also it (currently) won't work for a
simpler case ... tethered Android Phone over USB (because it looks
like USB Ethernet).

But that does not mean that we should not try to limit the impact if
we want to do the background download stuff (perfect is not the enemy
of good).
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Mat Booth]

On 20 June 2014 12:04, Mat Booth  wrote:

> On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth:
>> > On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald > h.rei...@thelounge.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
>> > > On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald > 
>> > >>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
>> > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
>> > > > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org>
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald <
>> h.rei...@thelounge.net 
>> > >>
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common
>> complaints about yum
>> > > >> (especially from people coming from another package
>> management system) is
>> > > >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download
>> the metadata.  The
>> > > >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common
>> complaint -- had solved
>> > > >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also
>> added settings so
>> > > >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit
>> our particular
>> > > >> needs.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on
>> this list, as I've
>> > > >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine
>> years.  Only in the
>> > > >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in
>> my home that
>> > > >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I
>> completely
>> > > >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
>> > > >
>> > > > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile
>> broadband
>> > > > (like packagekit does)
>> > >
>> > > how should it do that?
>> > >
>> > > it's imagination that any software knows anything about the
>> internet connection
>> > > even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for
>> my LAN and so
>> > > the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was
>> "appears to be slow"
>> > >
>> > > IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that
>> information
>> >
>> > from where should it get that information if your network
>> connection is
>> > a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
>> >
>> > your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
>> >
>> > Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be "smart enough to
>> not do it on mobile broadband" to which you
>> > asked "how?"
>> >
>> > I answered only that question
>>
>> again:
>>
>> * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection
>> * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN
>> * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection
>>
>> believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a
>> box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect
>> your devices and have some hundret MB per month
>>
>> in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction
>> ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as
>> OS supplier
>>
>>
> Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions
> because of a desire for perfection. Don't you agree that a good first step
> would be to teach DNF how to talk to NetworkManager?
>
> 3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the
> use case of connecting with a 3G dongle or tethered mobile phone.
>
>
In fact this already seems to be listed in the Feature Backlog, so that's
great!

https://github.com/akozumpl/dnf/wiki/Features-backlog

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Mat Booth]

On 20 June 2014 11:50, Reindl Harald  wrote:

>
>
> Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth:
> > On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald  h.rei...@thelounge.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
> > > On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald  
> > >>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> > > > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org>
>  > >> wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald <
> h.rei...@thelounge.net 
> > >>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common
> complaints about yum
> > > >> (especially from people coming from another package
> management system) is
> > > >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the
> metadata.  The
> > > >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common
> complaint -- had solved
> > > >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also
> added settings so
> > > >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit
> our particular
> > > >> needs.
> > > >>
> > > >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> > > >>
> > > >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on
> this list, as I've
> > > >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine
> years.  Only in the
> > > >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in
> my home that
> > > >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I
> completely
> > > >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> > > >
> > > > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile
> broadband
> > > > (like packagekit does)
> > >
> > > how should it do that?
> > >
> > > it's imagination that any software knows anything about the
> internet connection
> > > even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for
> my LAN and so
> > > the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was
> "appears to be slow"
> > >
> > > IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that
> information
> >
> > from where should it get that information if your network connection
> is
> > a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
> >
> > your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
> >
> > Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be "smart enough to
> not do it on mobile broadband" to which you
> > asked "how?"
> >
> > I answered only that question
>
> again:
>
> * 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection
> * that WAN connection is shared in the LAN
> * the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection
>
> believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a
> box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect
> your devices and have some hundret MB per month
>
> in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction
> ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as
> OS supplier
>
>
Well sure, but there's no sense in throwing out all imperfect solutions
because of a desire for perfection. Don't you agree that a good first step
would be to teach DNF how to talk to NetworkManager?

3G internet is common in my locale too -- this would at least cover the use
case of connecting with a 3G dongle or tethered mobile phone.

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 12:36, schrieb Mat Booth:
> On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
> > On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald  
> >> wrote:
> >
> > Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> > > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org> 
>  >> wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> mailto:h.rei...@thelounge.net>
> >>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints 
> about yum
> > >> (especially from people coming from another package management 
> system) is
> > >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the 
> metadata.  The
> > >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- 
> had solved
> > >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added 
> settings so
> > >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our 
> particular
> > >> needs.
> > >>
> > >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> > >>
> > >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this 
> list, as I've
> > >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  
> Only in the
> > >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my 
> home that
> > >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I 
> completely
> > >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> > >
> > > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile 
> broadband
> > > (like packagekit does)
> >
> > how should it do that?
> >
> > it's imagination that any software knows anything about the 
> internet connection
> > even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my 
> LAN and so
> > the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to 
> be slow"
> >
> > IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that 
> information
> 
> from where should it get that information if your network connection is
> a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
> 
> your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
> 
> Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be "smart enough to not do 
> it on mobile broadband" to which you
> asked "how?"
> 
> I answered only that question

again:

* 3G stick aka mobile broadband as WAN connection
* that WAN connection is shared in the LAN
* the single machines don't know anything about the WAN connection

believe it or not, but here in austria it's not uncommon to get a
box with 3G and on the other end a ethernet-port where you connect
your devices and have some hundret MB per month

in the meantime many of that packages are going in the direction
ulimited traffic, but that's nothing you can be sure about as
OS supplier



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jan Zelený]

On 20. 6. 2014 at 12:29:32, Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 20.06.2014 12:23, schrieb Jan Zelený:
> > On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >> Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený:
> >>> On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote:
> > and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but 
had
> > *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
> > instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
> > metadata refresh
> > 
> > do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?
>  
>  No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.
> >>> 
> >>> While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking
> >>> about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We
> >>> never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is
> >>> different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras
> >> 
> >> that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases
> > 
> > Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you
> > will not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change
> > that often and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day
> 
> how does it know that?

Checksums.

Thanks
Jan

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Mat Booth]

On 20 June 2014 11:19, Reindl Harald  wrote:

>
>
> Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
> > On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald  h.rei...@thelounge.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> > > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org>>
> wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald <
> h.rei...@thelounge.net >
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints
> about yum
> > >> (especially from people coming from another package management
> system) is
> > >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the
> metadata.  The
> > >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint --
> had solved
> > >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added
> settings so
> > >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our
> particular
> > >> needs.
> > >>
> > >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> > >>
> > >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this
> list, as I've
> > >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.
>  Only in the
> > >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home
> that
> > >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> > >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> > >
> > > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> > > (like packagekit does)
> >
> > how should it do that?
> >
> > it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet
> connection
> > even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN
> and so
> > the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to
> be slow"
> >
> >
> > IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that
> information
>
> from where should it get that information if your network connection is
> a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?
>
> your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection
>
>

Woah there... The suggestion was to simply let it be "smart enough to not
do it on mobile broadband" to which you asked "how?"

I answered only that question.


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 12:23, schrieb Jan Zelený:
> On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený:
>>> On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote:
> and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
> *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
> instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
> metadata refresh
>
> do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?

 No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.
>>>
>>> While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking
>>> about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We
>>> never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is
>>> different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras
>>
>> that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases
> 
> Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you 
> will 
> not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change that often 
> and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day

how does it know that?
because it starts and looks for the metadata!

frankly i have seen so often "checksum does not match try other mirror"
iterating through the whole mirror lists by calling "yum upgrade" which
leads to *a lot* of traffic if you don't stop it

the first time i realized that was PackageKit triggering look for
updates and the reason i got aware about this was my network
widegt and the question "who in the world produces that much
network traffic now and why?"

if you have a small internet package limited to 500 MB per month
which is not that uncommon such default jokes may lead to have
no longer internet for the rest of the month, reduced bandwith
up to unuseable or paying a lot of money





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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jan Zelený]

On 20. 6. 2014 at 11:22:15, Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený:
> > On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote:
> >>> and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
> >>> *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
> >>> instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
> >>> metadata refresh
> >>> 
> >>> do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?
> >> 
> >> No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.
> > 
> > While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking
> > about rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We
> > never intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is
> > different in so many ways compared to stable Fedoras
> 
> that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases

Actually it has everything to do with rawhide. On normal distribution you will 
not see that lock that often because the metadata doesn't change that often 
and it doesn't need to be re-downloaded multiple times a day.

Thanks
Jan
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 11:57, schrieb Mat Booth:
> On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald  > wrote:
> 
> Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> > mailto:jsm...@fedoraproject.org>> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald  >
> >> wrote:
> >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> >> (especially from people coming from another package management system) 
> is
> >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  
> The
> >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had 
> solved
> >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added 
> settings so
> >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our 
> particular
> >> needs.
> >>
> >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> >>
> >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, 
> as I've
> >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only 
> in the
> >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
> >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> >
> > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> > (like packagekit does)
> 
> how should it do that?
> 
> it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet 
> connection
> even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and 
> so
> the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to be 
> slow"
> 
> 
> IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information

from where should it get that information if your network connection is
a Gigabit-Ethernet LAN to the router with a slow DSL upstream?

your whole machine has no idea about your WAN connection



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Mat Booth]

On 20 June 2014 10:19, Reindl Harald  wrote:

>
> Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> >  wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> >> wrote:
> >> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> >> (especially from people coming from another package management system)
> is
> >> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.
>  The
> >> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had
> solved
> >> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added
> settings so
> >> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
> >> needs.
> >>
> >>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> >>
> >> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as
> I've
> >> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only
> in the
> >> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
> >> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> >> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> >
> > It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> > (like packagekit does)
>
> how should it do that?
>
> it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet
> connection
> even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so
> the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to be slow"
>
>
IIRC, NetworkManager's DBus API should be able to give you that information.

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 09:11, schrieb Jan Zelený:
> On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote:
>>> and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
>>> *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
>>> instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
>>> metadata refresh
>>>
>>> do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?
>>
>> No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.
> 
> While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about 
> rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never 
> intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so 
> many 
> ways compared to stable Fedoras

that is not matter of rawhide or not and has nohting to do with usecases

* the background yum/dnf proess is running
* any dnf/yum command comes with a mystical "wait for something you have not 
ordered"

that behavior is the same as all the years ago with yum-cron
the only difference is that yum-cron are additional packages
and so that behavior don't live in the defaults



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.06.2014 08:55, schrieb drago01:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
>> wrote:
>> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
>> (especially from people coming from another package management system) is
>> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
>> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
>> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
>> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
>> needs.
>>
>>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>>
>> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
>> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
>> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
>> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
>> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> 
> It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> (like packagekit does)

how should it do that?

it's imagination that any software knows anything about the internet connection
even 11 years ago with a 56k modem that access was shared for my LAN and so
the only thing the notebook knew about the inernet was "appears to be slow"



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jan Zelený]

> > the "failed to load plugin copr" is also just a bug
> 
> In that case please file it here:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora

It is already filed and a fix is on the way:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1104088

Thanks
Jan
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Dridi Boukelmoune]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:55 AM, drago01  wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
>>
>>
>> This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
>> installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
>> developers liers doesn't help the situation any.
>>
>>>
>>> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
>>> upgrade"
>>> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
>>
>>
>> Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to
>> do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
>> enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
>> retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
>> lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
>> engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
>> consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
>> (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
>> user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
>> requirements.
>>
>> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
>> (especially from people coming from another package management system) is
>> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
>> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
>> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
>> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
>> needs.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>>
>>
>> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
>> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
>> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
>> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
>> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
>
> It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> (like packagekit does).

Funny thing you mention this just when I was about to do the same!

For various reasons my "home" internet access is my mobile phone and
my first experience last week [1] with dnf on my main laptop was
horrible. All this month's bandwidth is gone because I didn't notice
dnf was downloading from every mirrors failure after failure.

IMHO this feature is not ready to be on by default

Dridi

[1] I couldn't upgrade to heisenbug because of a fedup bug, and
bandwidth limitations :)
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jan Zelený]

On 19. 6. 2014 at 14:24:39, Jon wrote:
> > and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
> > *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
> > instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
> > metadata refresh
> > 
> > do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?
> 
> No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.

While I agree that the user experience is not pleasant, you are talking about 
rawhide. I'd like to ask you not to use rawhide as a reference. We never 
intended to optimize dnf for the rawhide use case which is different in so many 
ways compared to stable Fedoras.

> It would be great if the metadata were fetched, and put into place
> atomically. Something where the downloading step of the fetching would
> block on YOUR pid as a user you should never lose the battle, and if
> you happen to get not a race with the finally atomic save, it would
> briefly make you wait while the stdio took place. This is one thing
> I've always though was unfortunate with yum, and would like to see
> improve with DNF. More resilient handling of tasks, or more
> concurrency, or whatever.  I guess if you were doing a clearing of
> metadata, and in the back ground metadata were already being
> fetched... the two tasks could be combined, and you really wouldn't
> need to be blocked too much.  Perhaps someday that will be
> implemented. =)

If you feel like this should be done and there is no RFE about this in 
bugzilla, feel free to file one. It will probably get deprioritized for the 
moment but it will at least be tracked.

Thanks
Jan
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jan Zelený]

On 20. 6. 2014 at 08:55:18, drago01 wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
> 
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> > 
> > wrote:
> >> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
> > 
> > This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make
> > package
> > installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
> > developers liers doesn't help the situation any.
> > 
> >> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
> >> upgrade"
> >> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata 
are
> > 
> > Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough
> > to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably
> > know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based
> > metadata retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to
> > miss in the lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that
> > Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things
> > mostly by consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the
> > *average* user (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that
> > approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very
> > specific needs and
> > requirements.
> > 
> > Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> > (especially from people coming from another package management 
system) is
> > that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  
The
> > DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
> > it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings
> > so
> > that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
> > needs.
> > 
> >> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
> > 
> > I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as
> > I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years. 
> > Only in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my
> > home that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I
> > completely understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.
> 
> It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
> (like packagekit does).

Dnf doesn't know anything about your network connection and I'm not even sure 
it should ... I can imagine a high level orchestration tool for the entire 
system to do stuff like this but that's out of our scope.

Thanks
Jan
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[drago01]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Jared K. Smith
 wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
> wrote:
>>
>> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
>
>
> This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
> installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
> developers liers doesn't help the situation any.
>
>>
>> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
>> upgrade"
>> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
>
>
> Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to
> do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably know
> enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
> retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
> lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
> engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
> consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
> (or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
> user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
> requirements.
>
> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
> (especially from people coming from another package management system) is
> that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
> DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
> it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
> that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
> needs.
>
>>
>>
>> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>
>
> I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as I've
> been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only in the
> past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home that
> wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
> understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.

It should be at least smart enough to not do it on mobile broadband
(like packagekit does).
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:33 PM, J. Randall Owens <
jrowens.fed...@ghiapet.net> wrote:

> On a bit of a tangent, per the current yum-3.4.3 man page:
> >upgrade
> >   Is the same as the update command with the --obsoletes
> flag set.
> >   See update for more details.
>

We're not talking about YUM, we're talking about DNF... and per the current
dnf man page:
>   Update Command
>   dnf [options] update
>  Deprecated alias for the Upgrade Command.

So, yes... it is a just an alias, they are deprecating it (and it has been
that way since day 1 for DNF), and their documentation is up to date.
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[J. Randall Owens]

On 06/19/2014 03:42 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> FYI... update is a deprecated alias for the "upgrade" command​, and has
> been for a couple of years.  Don't know when they're going to phase it
> out, but probably a good idea to switch over to get used to it.

On a bit of a tangent, per the current yum-3.4.3 man page:
>upgrade
>   Is the same as the update command with the --obsoletes flag set.
>   See update for more details.

So, either no, not just an alias, and they aren't deprecating it
effectively at all, or, the documentation needs to be brought up to
date. Could be either way; I don't know.

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Gerald B. Cox]

FYI... update is a deprecated alias for the "upgrade" command​, and has
been for a couple of years.  Don't know when they're going to phase it out,
but probably a good idea to switch over to get used to it.

Also, to make the changes more permanent, add the following lines to
/etc/dnf/dnf.conf
metadata_expire=0
metadata_timer_sync=0

That is what I finally did... Of the two years of using DNF I have always
had to "dnf clean" before "upgrade" otherwise it would report back no
updates were available, even though a "yum update" would report that
changes were indeed available.

I've never had much luck with the "automagic" update utilities.
 "kpackagekit" now known "apper" would always startup at the most
inopportune times, chugging away, slowing down the system.  I think one of
the number one questions has always been how to disable it.  Don't get me
wrong, I fully understand how some people love that sort of thing.   I
personally alway prefer to do anything upgrade related manually, though the
command line, watching as changes are being applied.  I guess I'm not very
trusting in that regard.  LOL...



Just a few weeks ago, I finally got tired of it and searched and found out
how to update the dnf.conf.
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Heiko Adams]

Adding

> alias Update='sudo dnf --refresh update'

to your .bashrc will safe you that bit of typing every time you want to
do an update ;)
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Am Donnerstag, den 19.06.2014, 16:35 -0400 schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 01:47:27PM -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> > In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf
> > update" purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of
> > date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work
> > right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is
> > trying to give.
> 
> Just FYI: `dnf --refresh update`. Save you a little bit of typing. :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 01:47:27PM -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote:
> In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf
> update" purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of
> date. To me dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work
> right. But I'm not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is
> trying to give.

Just FYI: `dnf --refresh update`. Save you a little bit of typing. :)


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jon]

> and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
> *two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
> instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
> metadata refresh
>
> do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?
>

No, that is unfortunate, and probably user unfriendly.

It would be great if the metadata were fetched, and put into place
atomically. Something where the downloading step of the fetching would
block on YOUR pid as a user you should never lose the battle, and if
you happen to get not a race with the finally atomic save, it would
briefly make you wait while the stdio took place. This is one thing
I've always though was unfortunate with yum, and would like to see
improve with DNF. More resilient handling of tasks, or more
concurrency, or whatever.  I guess if you were doing a clearing of
metadata, and in the back ground metadata were already being
fetched... the two tasks could be combined, and you really wouldn't
need to be blocked too much.  Perhaps someday that will be
implemented. =)
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.06.2014 21:09, schrieb Reindl Harald:
> Am 19.06.2014 20:59, schrieb Jared K. Smith:
>> Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to 
>> do this in yum for your particular use
>> case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with 
>> regards to cron-based metadata
>> retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the 
>> lot of fedora-devel discussions you take
>> part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs.  We 
>> do things mostly by consensus, and aim
>> to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have 
>> in the Fedora community that
>> approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very 
>> specific needs and requirements
> 
> that must be also the reason for proposals like disable the firewall by 
> default
> while power-users never would do that and the ordinary user is in danger by
> rely on careful defaults
> 
> what many developers refuse to understand if i complain about things is that
> *i have no problem* to adopt many wrong decisions and make them sane, the
> ordinary user don't know that all and relies on defaults
> 
>> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum 
>> (especially
>> from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems 
>> slow
>> because of the necessity to download the metadata
> 
> Whether you like it or not, the reason i laugh about Debian based systems
> over many years is that "apt-get upgrade" don't do anything most of the
> time until you force it to refresh the metadata before and then you get
> the recent security updates you already know that they are available

and BTW i am not playing around that much on my Rawhide VM but had
*two times* today by type "dnf whatever" the "there is already an
instance, wating for PID..." nonsense caused by the background
metadata refresh

do you *really* think that's a good user-expierience?



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.06.2014 20:59, schrieb Jared K. Smith:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald  > wrote:
> 
> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
> 
> This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package 
> installations and updates go faster (or
> appear to go faster).  Calling the developers liers doesn't help the 
> situation any.
>  
> 
> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum 
> upgrade"
> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
>  
> Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough to 
> do this in yum for your particular use
> case, which means you probably know enough to change the DNF settings with 
> regards to cron-based metadata
> retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the lot 
> of fedora-devel discussions you take
> part in) is that Fedora isn't engineered around *your* particular needs.  We 
> do things mostly by consensus, and aim
> to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user (or whatever we have 
> in the Fedora community that
> approximates an average user), and not just for power users with very 
> specific needs and requirements

that must be also the reason for proposals like disable the firewall by default
while power-users never would do that and the ordinary user is in danger by
rely on careful defaults

what many developers refuse to understand if i complain about things is that
*i have no problem* to adopt many wrong decisions and make them sane, the
ordinary user don't know that all and relies on defaults

> Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum 
> (especially
> from people coming from another package management system) is that it seems 
> slow
> because of the necessity to download the metadata

Whether you like it or not, the reason i laugh about Debian based systems
over many years is that "apt-get upgrade" don't do anything most of the
time until you force it to refresh the metadata before and then you get
the recent security updates you already know that they are available



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jared K. Smith]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Reindl Harald 
wrote:

> if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
>

This is not the only thing that DNF does differently to try to make package
installations and updates go faster (or appear to go faster).  Calling the
developers liers doesn't help the situation any.


> if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum
> upgrade"
> for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are
>

Sure, but you have to understand -- you're a power user.  You know enough
to do this in yum for your particular use case, which means you probably
know enough to change the DNF settings with regards to cron-based metadata
retrieval.  What I think you're missing (and frankly, seem to miss in the
lot of fedora-devel discussions you take part in) is that Fedora isn't
engineered around *your* particular needs.  We do things mostly by
consensus, and aim to make it a pleasant experience for the *average* user
(or whatever we have in the Fedora community that approximates an average
user), and not just for power users with very specific needs and
requirements.

Whether you like it or not, one of the most common complaints about yum
(especially from people coming from another package management system) is
that it seems slow because of the necessity to download the metadata.  The
DNF developers -- in trying to address this common complaint -- had solved
it by handling metadata in a different way.  They've also added settings so
that power users like you and I can tune it to better fit our particular
needs.


>
> and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>

I probably understand this better than a lot of people on this list, as
I've been on a bandwidth-limited connection for the past nine years.  Only
in the past month have I been able to get high speed internet in my home
that wasn't limited to a few gigabytes per month.  So yes, I completely
understand that traffic isn't cheap (or fast) everywhere.

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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Dennis Gilmore]

In testing dnf on rawhide I nearly always do "dnf clean metadata && dnf update" 
purely because I found most of the time dnfs metadata was out of date. To me 
dnf fetching the metadata behind the scenes just doesn't work right. But I'm 
not sure that me or rawhide fits into the experience dnf is trying to give.

Dennis

On June 19, 2014 1:01:03 PM CDT, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>
>Am 19.06.2014 19:57, schrieb Jon:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald
> wrote:
>>> that's not the question
>>> the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults*
>>>
>> 
>> I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster
>> compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata
>ahead
>> of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a
>> costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do
>> that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF
>> or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is
>> very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default?
>> It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like
>> determine what package provides something... I would say no, but
>> bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads
>> to continuously update metadata
>
>if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie
>
>if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata &&
>yum upgrade"
>for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata
>are
>
>and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.06.2014 19:57, schrieb Jon:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald  
> wrote:
>> that's not the question
>> the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults*
>>
> 
> I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster
> compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata ahead
> of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a
> costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do
> that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF
> or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is
> very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default?
> It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like
> determine what package provides something... I would say no, but
> bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads
> to continuously update metadata

if *that* is what is supposed to make DNF faster it's just a lie

if i am really interested in updates now i do "yum clean metadata && yum 
upgrade"
for many years simply because you don't know how accurat you metadata are

and *no* traffic is not cheap everywhere, by far not



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Petr Viktorin]

On 06/19/2014 07:14 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:

why does DNF refresh metadata in background?


To quote Aleš Kozumplík from [a previous mail]:
| majority of people appreciates having the metadata handy and only a 
minority worries about the traffic.


[a previous mail] 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-March/180401.html




that has no benefit,


False.


increases network traffic


True (in some scenarios).


and finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case
you type "dnf upgrade" *when* you want to apply updates


True.



the "failed to load plugin copr" is also just a bug


In that case please file it here: 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora



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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Jon]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> that's not the question
> the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults*
>

I might be way off base here, but in an effort to make DNF go faster
compared to YUM, the idea was made to have it pre-fetch metadata ahead
of time, so when DNF command is finally run by the user, it skips a
costly step... and *seems* faster. Although I believe YUM could do
that also with a simple crontab. It is actually a nice feature of DNF
or YUM, and I would suggest you embrace. Also, I'm skeptical there is
very much network traffic, unless it downloads file lists by default?
It's arguable if file lists should be pre-fetched, to do things like
determine what package provides something... I would say no, but
bandwidth is cheap. So there really is a benefit, and it mostly leads
to continuously update metadata.


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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Gerald B. Cox]

You might want to review:
http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/user_faq.html

It contains information on how to disable the automatic metadata updates...


On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Reindl Harald 
wrote:

> why does DNF refresh metadata in background?
>
> that has no benefit, increases network traffic and
> finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case
> you type "dnf upgrade" *when* you want to apply updates
>
> the "failed to load plugin copr" is also just a bug
>
>
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Re: DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

that's not the question
the question is why such traffic wasting *defaults*

Am 19.06.2014 19:40, schrieb Gerald B. Cox:
> You might want to review:
> http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/user_faq.html
> 
> It contains information on how to disable the automatic metadata updates...
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Reindl Harald  > wrote:
> 
> why does DNF refresh metadata in background?
> 
> that has no benefit, increases network traffic and
> finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case
> you type "dnf upgrade" *when* you want to apply updates
> 
> the "failed to load plugin copr" is also just a bug



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DNF: why does it refresh metadata all the time

[Reindl Harald]

why does DNF refresh metadata in background?

that has no benefit, increases network traffic and
finally leads to more likely outdated metadata in case
you type "dnf upgrade" *when* you want to apply updates

the "failed to load plugin copr" is also just a bug



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