Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 11/03/2013 08:23 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Michael Scherer wrote: However, since you didn't explained at all what are the issues you are facing with the new approach, and since you have only explained how you are doing on your 20 servers ( which is totally unrelated to the question of desktops, BTW, and which would still be usable at your convenience on anything you maintain ), I am quite sceptic on your whole intervention. The issues are that: * updates require 2 reboots, * you cannot use what you upgraded before doing the reboots, * in particular, you cannot install new packages built against the updated ones before the reboots, * security fixes also only take effect after the reboots. Another issue is that it's a negative user experience---people either are interrupted at a time of sysadmin's choosing, or, worse, turn the computer off, and then turn it back on later expecting to use it promptly, and have to wait much longer. And then it happens again, and again, with regularity. This is a problem for any kind of delayed updates---even those scheduled for re-login instead of reboot. We don't have a way of telling which updates REQUIRE reboot(*)--but solving this problem by rebooting always is not right, in my opinion. p (*) Such list may not even be possible: it would obviously include the kernel, and currently running applications/services which cannot be reloaded, and even subsystems that might have been initialized one way but now must be initialized differently, and ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@nist.gov wrote: We don't have a way of telling which updates REQUIRE reboot(*)--but solving this problem by rebooting always is not right, in my opinion. This information is already available in bodhi. It's probably not very accurate, but it is there, and it could be made more accurate without changing the client-side tools. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 06.11.2013 23:03, schrieb Miloslav Trmač: On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@nist.gov wrote: We don't have a way of telling which updates REQUIRE reboot(*)--but solving this problem by rebooting always is not right, in my opinion. This information is already available in bodhi. It's probably not very accurate, but it is there, and it could be made more accurate without changing the client-side tools. i always take lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr do get a list of processes which have deleted files open which are exactly the libraries re updated systemctl restart daemon1.service daemon2.service and i prefer that much to restart a service automatically after update because several reasons: * i can deploy updates to any machines without interrupt services * i can choose to restart not-so-important ones, take a breath and coffee * and then i restart services on machines in my preferred order * the preferred order may depend on how services on different machines work together * that also is scriptable because ik now which services on what amchines work together it should not be that hard to refer a service list this way and offer the user to restart them or ignore it for whatever reason (a reason could be that he one hour later goes home and shut down the machine anyways) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 11/06/2013 05:08 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 06.11.2013 23:03, schrieb Miloslav Trmač: On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@nist.gov wrote: We don't have a way of telling which updates REQUIRE reboot(*)--but solving this problem by rebooting always is not right, in my opinion. This information is already available in bodhi. It's probably not very accurate, but it is there, and it could be made more accurate without changing the client-side tools. i always take lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr do get a list of processes which have deleted files open which are exactly the libraries re updated But my point was that there can be more reasons: e.g. some action at the service startup that needs to be done differently after the update. Neither lsof nor bodhi can deal with that type. The only hope is that the list is probably finite and we could come up with technical solutions. Hey, wait a minute. What if we made %post* responsible for e.g. sending dbus a 'need to restart something' message? Would that cover all cases we've been talking about? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Hi, On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 14:23:28 +0100 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Michael Scherer wrote: When statistics cost you money, yeah, I think that's important to take them in account. Maybe your employer do not care about this, but I strongly suspect mine does, and I strongly suspect that most companies do care about this as well. Company computers should get updated only by the sysadmins (which AFAIK is how it works at his company, him being the CTO, sysadmin and lead developer in one person), or by automated scripts running as root (which is how it's done at my university, there's an autoupdate script running at bootup). Users have no business updating company-managed computers. This is YOUR opinion. Evidently, the direction GNOME is taking conflicts with your opinion. But, maybe it would help to think about people having opinions other than your own? FWIW, at work here we used to do sysadmin-dictated updates and installation but for several reasons that is simply not feasible anymore: - people work remotely more than ever including spotty network performance at the right update time - laptops and their usage (ok audience of 200 students let's wait until my forced-update is done before I give my lecture) - expectations -- people simply installed their own OS once they found out that they could not install their own necessary software, wasting both their and our time Again, not saying that this is typical, or something that YOU should adopt at your work. But the offline updates as will be implemented in F20 will simply make things better for US. And that is ALSO a VALID opinion. Regards, --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
- Original Message - On 1 November 2013 19:27, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: Cleaned up the appdata xml Thanks, https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml but I get errors from appdata-validate Can see what the problem is :( You've got some odd non-utf8 char as the very first byte in the file: That's a BOM character: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark If you're not using libxml2, you should be. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Le Sam 2 novembre 2013 21:02, Richard Hughes a écrit : It's also impossible to do in a race-free way on a multiuser system. Quite frankly, I'm surprised online updates works as much as it does. It works as much as it does because people have made it work for years instead of giving up like you are. Serious (entrerprisey, that won some marketshare) software is designed to update without reboots Le Sam 2 novembre 2013 21:27, Reindl Harald a écrit : instead going the easy windows-way and say ok, you have to reboot it would be more worth to optimize the handling *after* updates without reboot and let the user decie wichi services are needed to restart Not to mention the windows way only works for home systems. In any corporation, sending update and reboot now orders to tens of thousand of workstations is a major productivity killer (because if you wait for reboot to apply updates some people won't ever reboot and if you leave them the choice some will drop everything to reboot at once because they'd rather waste work time now than go home later at the end of the workday since updates take ages) One way or another, adding causes for reboot is not going to make the product more successful in the market. Can we stop the race to adopt other systems antifeatures? -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 11/02/2013 09:27 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: instead going the easy windows-way and say ok, you have to reboot I don't think this is a technically accurate characterization of the Windows update mechanism. Windows even allows updating processes through in-memory patching and compiles most functions with a special prologue to support this: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc782258%28v=ws.10%29.aspx -- Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 04.11.2013 12:49, schrieb Florian Weimer: On 11/02/2013 09:27 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: instead going the easy windows-way and say ok, you have to reboot I don't think this is a technically accurate characterization of the Windows update mechanism. Windows even allows updating processes through in-memory patching and compiles most functions with a special prologue to support this: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc782258%28v=ws.10%29.aspx technical background is completly irrelevant in this context because the typical windows behavior over years was you did something reboot now and that Microsoft is working to reduce this as your link describes leaves a even more bad taste in the mouth now going the other direction on Linux systems that is no improvement, that is a step backwards 10 years or so signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Le lundi 04 novembre 2013 à 12:04 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot a écrit : instead going the easy windows-way and say ok, you have to reboot it would be more worth to optimize the handling *after* updates without reboot and let the user decie wichi services are needed to restart Not to mention the windows way only works for home systems. In any corporation, sending update and reboot now orders to tens of thousand of workstations is a major productivity killer AFAIK, some part of Orange do that. The only productivity killed is the one of the people that work in the night during the mandatory update windows at 2 or 3 o'clock. And at work, we have a policy of rebooting servers after every monthly update, to make sure the latest version of library and everything are running. And this mostly disturb irc screen/tmux session, because we do that during the night. (because if you wait for reboot to apply updates some people won't ever reboot and if you leave them the choice some will drop everything to reboot at once because they'd rather waste work time now than go home later at the end of the workday since updates take ages) Based on my experience, people already do that, so we have to cope with the fact they do not make update if we give them the choice. And this is also costing money to company due to calls to support that could be avoided if people ran the latest updated version of some software. One alternative is to force updates during the night, which would work fine for a workstation in a office ( and in which case, the issue of having to reboot become much less a problem ). But not for laptops. One way or another, adding causes for reboot is not going to make the product more successful in the market. Can we stop the race to adopt other systems antifeatures? Outside of posters in this thread, I think most people do not really care how the update work. What they care is to avoid weird bugs and that's the main point. Now, you disagree on the way to fix those weird bugs, but if no one fixed them so far ( and to be honest, I have not seen anyone even starting to work on this ), I doubt that waiting more is gonna make the fix appear. Free software is a do-o-cracy, whatever your perfect fix is, if it is not being implemented, it doesn't exist. And if people do not wish to use GPK or gnome-software to make updates because of the reboot, the old way still exist. People spoke of yumex among others, and the various scripts that were posted would still work, yum would still be here (or dnf). -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 4 November 2013 10:24, Bastien Nocera bnoc...@redhat.com wrote: If you're not using libxml2, you should be. I'm using GMarkup. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 9:02 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 November 2013 17:47, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: I'm not really excited about a lot of required rebooting, though -- I think that might be worse than the disease. We should have most of the information needed to determine if a reboot is really necessary, shouldn't we? I hope we can move to that in the future for a nicer user experience. There's no way to tell if an application can be updated on-line due to runtime loadable content and plugins. It's also impossible to do in a race-free way on a multiuser system. That's true in the _general_ case, and therefore the ability to have off-line updates is a good _general_ default. We should be able to do _much_ better for many common cases (at the very least, a package that only has one executable, or one shared library, and no other executables or shared libraries or data files with unknown function). OTOH that's more of a generic packaging infrastructure RFE than specifically a gnome-software RFE. The problem is when online update fails, you either get snip or a hosed rpmdb. (How can rpmdb get hosed, and how are offline updates supposed to prevent that?) Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 4 November 2013 14:31, Miloslav Trmač m...@volny.cz wrote: That's true in the _general_ case, and therefore the ability to have off-line updates is a good _general_ default. We should be able to do _much_ better for many common cases (at the very least, a package that only has one executable, or one shared library, and no other executables or shared libraries or data files with unknown function). Even that's basically impossible to do in a race-free way. The way rpm works is when you update a package, you actually install the new package, then remove the old one. So there's a small but significant time where just launching a command line utility makes it crash. Without actually stopping the application from starting (for all users) it's impossible to do correctly with rpm. (How can rpmdb get hosed, and how are offline updates supposed to prevent that?) The idea is you have a small self contained known good environment. There are no locale overrides, no LD_PRELOAD hacks and no debuggers running, and all the things that make the transaction hang. Similarly, because there's such a small runtime environment, there's less to go wrong, e.g. X crashing and that kind of thing. I like what ChromeOS does where it has a rescue-ish partition, to do the upgrade, but without something like btrfs that can switch roots on a running filesystem that's basically impossible on Linux. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 14:48 +, Richard Hughes wrote: I like what ChromeOS does where it has a rescue-ish partition, to do the upgrade, but without something like btrfs that can switch roots on a running filesystem that's basically impossible on Linux. This is precisely what https://wiki.gnome.org/OSTree is designed to do, and has been doing quite successfully for gnome-continuous for over a year now. It really works. You don't need any special features at the block/filesystem layer. (And not just two systems - you can easily have 50 installed, and bisect between them) It is however far harder to slide it underneath yum/rpm, but if anyone is interested in working on this please do drop by the ostree-l...@gnome.org list. There are people who are working on this for dpkg and Arch linux packages. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 November 2013 14:31, Miloslav Trmač m...@volny.cz wrote: That's true in the _general_ case, and therefore the ability to have off-line updates is a good _general_ default. We should be able to do _much_ better for many common cases (at the very least, a package that only has one executable, or one shared library, and no other executables or shared libraries or data files with unknown function). Even that's basically impossible to do in a race-free way. The way rpm works is when you update a package, you actually install the new package, then remove the old one. So there's a small but significant time where just launching a command line utility makes it crash. That's not what strace says: open(/usr/bin/youtube-dl;5277b6fc, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0666) = 46 snip close(46) = 0 snip write(46, #!/usr/bin/env python\nPK\3\4\24\0\0\0\10\0..., 65536) = 65536 snip rename(/usr/bin/youtube-dl;5277b6fc, /usr/bin/youtube-dl) = 0 rename() is atomic, so at every single moment the path refers to a valid and working executable. (The heuristic above has been intentionally worded in a way that avoids inter-file dependencies.) Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Michael Scherer wrote: As i say, we mostly have a fleet of laptop, and of course, the situation would be different if this was a set of workstation, but alas, this is not the case. It's true that the problem is harder for laptops, which are often more loosely administrated by necessity. Then this mean there is a problem in dependency. If I install kevin- simulator-1.0 that requires libmichael1.1 while libmichael1.0 is installed, either it need it and it will pull it, or it doesn't need and it will not pull it. This also ask the whole question of having non compatible library, etc, but I think we already answered that question with the update policy and need to keep a proper compatible ABI. The update policy only requires BACKWARDS compatibility, i.e. that stuff built against libmichael1.0 will also work against libmichael1.1 if the latter is pushed as an update. For some libraries, it is totally impractical to require FORWARD compatibility (i.e. requiring that stuff built against libmichael1.1 will also run against libmichael1.0). So it is normal that updates depend on earlier updates. At least, the new system bring coherency, you know that everything is up to date after the reboot. And again, if you like the previous way, you can still opt-out of the system. The complaint in this thread is that GNOME Software does NOT allow you to opt-out, you have to switch to completely different software if you want to opt out of offline updates. (FYI, the plan for Apper upstream is to support both online and offline updates (currently, it supports only online updates), allowing the user to really opt-in or opt-out of offline updates. On the Fedora KDE end, we will then probably ship offline updates as opt- in/default-off rather than opt-out/default-on, at least that's our current consensus.) It also violates the principle of least surprise. In what way ? If the system clearly say we are gonna need to reboot to apply thoses updates, it is hard to say that you are surprised. And the principe of least surprise would be violated if we didn't followed the dominant paradigm, which is still windows afaik. Even that dominant paradigm stopped requiring reboots for each and every update eons ago. A user does not expect updates to require reboots, even less a GNU/Linux user. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Michael Scherer wrote: When statistics cost you money, yeah, I think that's important to take them in account. Maybe your employer do not care about this, but I strongly suspect mine does, and I strongly suspect that most companies do care about this as well. Company computers should get updated only by the sysadmins (which AFAIK is how it works at his company, him being the CTO, sysadmin and lead developer in one person), or by automated scripts running as root (which is how it's done at my university, there's an autoupdate script running at bootup). Users have no business updating company-managed computers. Not to mention that basically, what you suggest is that the system bypass users explicit requests to shutdown, and that doesn't sound like a improvement to me ( and again, I say that also because that's what we tried at work, and this didn't work that well ). Yet this is exactly how PackageKit deals with this for online updates. However, since you didn't explained at all what are the issues you are facing with the new approach, and since you have only explained how you are doing on your 20 servers ( which is totally unrelated to the question of desktops, BTW, and which would still be usable at your convenience on anything you maintain ), I am quite sceptic on your whole intervention. The issues are that: * updates require 2 reboots, * you cannot use what you upgraded before doing the reboots, * in particular, you cannot install new packages built against the updated ones before the reboots, * security fixes also only take effect after the reboots. It also violates the principle of least surprise. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Reindl Harald wrote: i am using updates-testing over years and often enough koji-packages too there are not much barely and problemtaic tested updates at all if someone wnats a system with less to zero updates he is using the wrong distribution and better suited with RHEL +1, the frequent updates are one of Fedora's strengths (see also the First principle). Fewer updates mean fewer bugfixes and thus more bugs! truly standalone is static linked *no* the people using Linux systems does not want the Windows/Apple way where everyting carries his whole libraries and never ever get updated and the ones who think that they want are using the wrong operating system that may sound hard but it is the truth +1 to that, and (ergo) -1 to app-store-like or OS-X-dmg-like applications which bundle the world. Throwing out decades of work on dependency resolution and going back to bundling with all its problems (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:No_Bundled_Libraries) is not acceptable. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 3 November 2013 13:31, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Fewer updates mean fewer bugfixes and thus more bugs! I'd agree with you if the majority of updates weren't either packaging tweaks or new upstream versions with little-to-no useful update text. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Richard Hughes wrote: I'd agree with you if the majority of updates weren't either packaging tweaks or new upstream versions with little-to-no useful update text. Packaging tweak updates are not that common. And the fact that the update notes are useless doesn't necessarily mean the update is useless, too. Plus, you ignore the many security and bugfix updates which do clearly explain what they fix in their update notes. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Le dimanche 03 novembre 2013 à 14:23 +0100, Kevin Kofler a écrit : Michael Scherer wrote: When statistics cost you money, yeah, I think that's important to take them in account. Maybe your employer do not care about this, but I strongly suspect mine does, and I strongly suspect that most companies do care about this as well. Company computers should get updated only by the sysadmins (which AFAIK is how it works at his company, him being the CTO, sysadmin and lead developer in one person), or by automated scripts running as root (which is how it's done at my university, there's an autoupdate script running at bootup). Users have no business updating company-managed computers. You would delighted to know that not everybody do like this. We prefer let the employees decide when the time to update is right, due for exemple factor like having to leave the office soon, or being at a customers site without much network connectivity, etc, etc. As i say, we mostly have a fleet of laptop, and of course, the situation would be different if this was a set of workstation, but alas, this is not the case. Not to mention that basically, what you suggest is that the system bypass users explicit requests to shutdown, and that doesn't sound like a improvement to me ( and again, I say that also because that's what we tried at work, and this didn't work that well ). Yet this is exactly how PackageKit deals with this for online updates. Then I think this must be changed. And in fact, that's maybe why this is currently changed. However, since you didn't explained at all what are the issues you are facing with the new approach, and since you have only explained how you are doing on your 20 servers ( which is totally unrelated to the question of desktops, BTW, and which would still be usable at your convenience on anything you maintain ), I am quite sceptic on your whole intervention. The issues are that: * updates require 2 reboots, as long as this is automated, this is a technical detail. People seeing 2 times the bios do not really matter. Granted, this is annoying to have to enter your encryption password twice if you use luks, but I wonder if kexec cannot help on that part. * you cannot use what you upgraded before doing the reboots, and so ? If the upgrade is the reboot, this is to be expected. AFAIK, the update is not applied until you reboot, and AFAIK, you can still do stuff by yourself using yum. So if your point is you cannot use the update before the update is applied, I have yet to find what you mean exactly. * in particular, you cannot install new packages built against the updated ones before the reboots, Then this mean there is a problem in dependency. If I install kevin- simulator-1.0 that requires libmichael1.1 while libmichael1.0 is installed, either it need it and it will pull it, or it doesn't need and it will not pull it. This also ask the whole question of having non compatible library, etc, but I think we already answered that question with the update policy and need to keep a proper compatible ABI. * security fixes also only take effect after the reboots. unlike now, where they take effect based on random factors such as was firefox already running, or did I logged out after the update, or did I reboot on the new kernel ? At least, the new system bring coherency, you know that everything is up to date after the reboot. And again, if you like the previous way, you can still opt-out of the system. It also violates the principle of least surprise. In what way ? If the system clearly say we are gonna need to reboot to apply thoses updates, it is hard to say that you are surprised. And the principe of least surprise would be violated if we didn't followed the dominant paradigm, which is still windows afaik. -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Ray Strode halfl...@gmail.com wrote: Small errors here: liControl want package repositories there is enabled for current session/li maybe should be: liControl what package repositories are enabled for the current session/li Thanks, fixed upstream Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Richard Hughes wrote: Not update, we do all updates offline now. Ewww! Yuck! Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 03:35:18PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: right-click-update in the app menu list, and other fun stuff like that? Not update, we do all updates offline now. Richard, who is we in this context? And what is offline? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 12:05 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: Richard, who is we in this context? And what is offline? we = GNOME, via systemd offline = Install Updates Restart [1]. Your computer shuts down, installs updates, shuts down again, and then boots back to GDM. This has been around since F18 (though it was quite broken until a PackageKit update in May or so), but it's currently a somewhat hidden option in the GNOME Shell menu. In F20 it will be the default behavior. I really want to have an Install Updates Power Off option as well, since offline updates are disruptive and annoying, and I don't want to wait around for my computer to restart when installing updates. The other change I want is for PackageKit to download updates weekly by default. Currently updates come daily, but daily offline updates would be completely absurd. All we have to do to support this is to change the default value of one gsettings key. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 18:16, schrieb Michael Catanzaro: The other change I want is for PackageKit to download updates weekly by default. Currently updates come daily, but daily offline updates would be completely absurd. All we have to do to support this is to change the default value of one gsettings key. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ in case of security updates with zero-deay exploits everywhere in the news weekly updates are more absurd for a bleeding-edge distribution - at this point the whole idea with offline-updates should be recosindered (saying as KDE user which is running yum daily per hand and updates-testing enabled, so not affected from all this changes) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 18:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 02.11.2013 18:16, schrieb Michael Catanzaro: The other change I want is for PackageKit to download updates weekly by default. Currently updates come daily, but daily offline updates would be completely absurd. All we have to do to support this is to change the default value of one gsettings key. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ in case of security updates with zero-deay exploits everywhere in the news weekly updates are more absurd for a bleeding-edge distribution - at this point the whole idea with offline-updates should be recosindered (saying as KDE user which is running yum daily per hand and updates-testing enabled, so not affected from all this changes) Whether the updates are done 'offline' or not has only little relation to how often we check for available updates and notify the user. The logic I recently implemented for gnome-software 3.12 in F21 is to check for new updates once per day, and download updates when they are important (e.g. security updates), or when it has been a week since the last time we installed updates. When a consistent set of updates has been downloaded, we notify the user about available updates. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 18:33 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 11:01 +, Richard Hughes wrote: Sure. GNOME is a complete desktop, not a collection of packages designed to be replaced. Personally, I see little benefit in prohibiting users from removing core apps. If they don't like a particular program, why force it on them? Many people like to have exactly one application for each task - for me that's the GNOME application, but it's not hard to understand why people replace Epiphany with Firefox, Totem with VLC, etc. Having a few uninstallable apps isn't a huge deal, but will be annoying for many and will justifiably draw user criticism. Anyway I'm curious exactly which apps will be uninstallable: are they handpicked or is there some criterion (e.g. everything in the core moduleset? but then would you be stuck with Epiphany if you install it, even though it's not installed by default?) On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 11:01 +, Richard Hughes wrote: We wanted to write an application that rocked for a certain set of users, rather than write a generic UI that wasn't really usable by anyone. Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. When they're installed at the same time, is there appropriate magic to ensure that gnome-software handles system updates, or would there be some sort of horrible competition between the two? (Maybe gpk-update-viewer should be retired entirely?) There's no competition. If you run gpk-update-viewer it will let you install updates (individual updates, 'online'), but it has no active role in monitoring system updates. In F20, the monitoring is done by the updates plugin in gnome-settings-daemon (and it will use gnome-software when asked to bring up a UI). For F21, this is being moved to gnome-software itself - it fits better there, and we get rid of the PackageKit dependency in gnome-settings-daemon, which people have complained about before (#699348). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 01:34:40PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: The logic I recently implemented for gnome-software 3.12 in F21 is to check for new updates once per day, and download updates when they are important (e.g. security updates), or when it has been a week since the last time we installed updates. When a consistent set of updates has been downloaded, we notify the user about available updates. This seems pretty sensible. I'm not really excited about a lot of required rebooting, though -- I think that might be worse than the disease. We should have most of the information needed to determine if a reboot is really necessary, shouldn't we? I hope we can move to that in the future for a nicer user experience. It would also be nice, in theory, to have an install on next reboot option for non-critical updates which do require a reboot. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Hi On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.atwrote: Richard Hughes wrote: Not update, we do all updates offline now. Ewww! Yuck! Can you stop with these childish responses? As a KDE contributor, it is understandable if you don't agree with GNOME decisions but you don't have to snipe at them all the time. It poisons the environment unnecessarily. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 2 November 2013 17:47, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: I'm not really excited about a lot of required rebooting, though -- I think that might be worse than the disease. We should have most of the information needed to determine if a reboot is really necessary, shouldn't we? I hope we can move to that in the future for a nicer user experience. There's no way to tell if an application can be updated on-line due to runtime loadable content and plugins. It's also impossible to do in a race-free way on a multiuser system. Quite frankly, I'm surprised online updates works as much as it does. The problem is when online update fails, you either get corrupted data and crashing application, or a hosed rpmdb. In a related point, we need to reduce the number of updates we present to the user in a massive way in a supposedly stable distro. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 21:02, schrieb Richard Hughes:
On 2 November 2013 17:47, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I'm not really excited about a lot of required rebooting, though -- I think
that might be worse than the disease. We should have most of the information
needed to determine if a reboot is really necessary, shouldn't we? I hope we
can move to that in the future for a nicer user experience.
There's no way to tell if an application can be updated on-line due to
runtime loadable content and plugins. It's also impossible to do in a
race-free way on a multiuser system.
why?
lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr shows any opened but deleted file
which is the case after updfates while applications are running
hence that is what i use on a infrastructure with around 20
Fedora servers to decide which services needs restarts or it
is worth to reboot which is hadrly the case except after kernel-updates
instead going the easy windows-way and say ok, you have to reboot
it would be more worth to optimize the handling *after* updates
without reboot and let the user decie wichi services are needed
to restart
yes i am strictly against restart services after updates why i
build any server related package by myself since years because
i know the impact of a update and most time a blind restart
at a random moment has more bad impact
___
[root@buildserver:~]$ cat /buildserver/distribute-needs-restart.sh
#!/usr/bin/bash
distribute-command.sh /usr/sbin/lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr
[root@buildserver:~]$ cat /buildserver/distribute-command.sh
#!/usr/bin/bash
source /Volumes/dune/buildserver/server-list.txt
function rh_run_command
{
echo -e \e[32m$1\e[0m
/usr/bin/ssh root@$1 $2
echo
echo -e
\e[31m--\e[0m
echo
}
if [ $2 == ]
then
echo /dev/null
else
echo Put your params in quotes
exit
fi
for item in ${RH_TARGET_SERVERS[*]}
do
rh_run_command $item $1
done
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Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 2 November 2013 20:27, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr shows any opened but deleted file which is the case after updfates while applications are running Doesn't work with libreoffice, firefox or any application that loads plugins or modules. hence that is what i use on a infrastructure with around 20 Fedora servers to decide which services needs restarts or it is worth to reboot which is hadrly the case except after kernel-updates Sure, that might work for servers, but I'd also argue gnome-software isn't designed for upgrading server hardware. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 21:35, schrieb Richard Hughes: On 2 November 2013 20:27, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr shows any opened but deleted file which is the case after updfates while applications are running Doesn't work with libreoffice, firefox or any application that loads plugins or modules explain why * the plugin is not loaded - fine * the plugin is not loaded but will be on demand - more fine, it loads the updated signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 20:35 +, Richard Hughes wrote: Doesn't work with libreoffice, firefox or any application that loads plugins or modules. I thought applications shipping desktop files would be updated online, and other packages would trigger offline updates. Has this plan changed? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 2 November 2013 21:08, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: I thought applications shipping desktop files would be updated online, and other packages would trigger offline updates. Has this plan changed? Yes, everything requires an offline update now. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 22:13, schrieb Richard Hughes: On 2 November 2013 21:08, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: I thought applications shipping desktop files would be updated online, and other packages would trigger offline updates. Has this plan changed? Yes, everything requires an offline update now before i leave this thread: smells abominable like Windows lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr works also on a Desktop since years god bless KDE, the idea offline-updates is a large step backwards signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Le samedi 02 novembre 2013 à 21:40 +0100, Reindl Harald a écrit : Am 02.11.2013 21:35, schrieb Richard Hughes: On 2 November 2013 20:27, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: lsof | grep DEL | grep /usr shows any opened but deleted file which is the case after updfates while applications are running Doesn't work with libreoffice, firefox or any application that loads plugins or modules explain why * the plugin is not loaded - fine * the plugin is not loaded but will be on demand - more fine, it loads the updated provided the updated is in the right place. If I have software1 that load plugin from /usr/lib/software1/v1 and suddenly, I switch to software1 v2 who load from /usr/lib/software1/v2, new plugins will be in /usr/lib/software1/v2, so outside of the search path of the running software1 v1 instance that currently run. Or what about if I start firefox at the same moment it is being updated ? Maybe you do not care about this because you know this is gonna crash, but the reason why so many people do not believe on Linux on the desktop is also partially due to this kind of crash from time to time. When you see them, you just start to think ok, this is crashing, that's not as solid as I believed, followed later by linux on the desktop is not even stable, let's go back to windows, it crash but at least, there is games. People internalized the problem and act as if this was normal, while it is not. Ars technica summarize quite clearly the situation on this problem : http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/its-the-little-things-how-small-conundrums-make-many-hate-computers/ And I do not even speak of the users who reboot during a upgrade, resulting into unbootable system due to issue like this ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1002891 ). Sure, people shouldn't do it. Yet they do, that's purely a statistical problem. Maybe you do not see it with your small set of 20 servers, but with ~ 40 RHEL desktops in my office, I have seen it 4 times. I have spend ~ 2h to fix each of them. Now, take a bigger fleer of laptop, and count how much this is costing in time to a company. Time lost by users, time lost by having someone looking at it instead of focusing on others issues. -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 22:29, schrieb Michael Scherer: Ars technica summarize quite clearly the situation on this problem : http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/its-the-little-things-how-small-conundrums-make-many-hate-computers/ And I do not even speak of the users who reboot during a upgrade, resulting into unbootable system due to issue like this ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1002891 ). Sure, people shouldn't do it. Yet they do, that's purely a statistical problem. Maybe you do not see it with your small set of 20 servers, but with ~ 40 RHEL desktops in my office, I have seen it 4 times. I have spend ~ 2h to fix each of them. Now, take a bigger fleer of laptop, and count how much this is costing in time to a company. Time lost by users, time lost by having someone looking at it instead of focusing on others issues strange - and instead fix the reboot/shutdown to delay the shutdown in case of a running rpm/yum/dnf we go the crappy way of install updates offline to work around statistics? sorry, but i can't see the improvement here in that case even windows is better which is technically wrong but with such behavior and conclusions we sadly make it true signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Dne 2.11.2013 22:13, Richard Hughes napsal(a): On 2 November 2013 21:08, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: I thought applications shipping desktop files would be updated online, and other packages would trigger offline updates. Has this plan changed? Yes, everything requires an offline update now. Richard. Not in KDE, a well behaved KDE app copes well with stuff being updated online; we usually watch the important directories and reload/restart the modules/plugins automatically. -- Lukáš Tinkl lti...@redhat.com Software Engineer - KDE desktop team, Brno KDE developer lu...@kde.org Red Hat Inc. http://cz.redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 08:02:51PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: update fails, you either get corrupted data and crashing application, or a hosed rpmdb. In a related point, we need to reduce the number of updates we present to the user in a massive way in a supposedly stable distro. I think we probably _can_ find a good technical solution to the other. Or at least, find some cases which we can handle reasonable well and work up fro there. Running applications in containers will help immensely, but that's kind of a long way off. So, really, it's this related point that I'm concerned about now. We _need_ to do these things in coordination, not just push a situation into F20 where we are telling our users to reboot everyday -- that's a pretty bad user experience. Even weekly feels like a lot. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Le samedi 02 novembre 2013 à 22:35 +0100, Reindl Harald a écrit : Am 02.11.2013 22:29, schrieb Michael Scherer: Ars technica summarize quite clearly the situation on this problem : http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/its-the-little-things-how-small-conundrums-make-many-hate-computers/ And I do not even speak of the users who reboot during a upgrade, resulting into unbootable system due to issue like this ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1002891 ). Sure, people shouldn't do it. Yet they do, that's purely a statistical problem. Maybe you do not see it with your small set of 20 servers, but with ~ 40 RHEL desktops in my office, I have seen it 4 times. I have spend ~ 2h to fix each of them. Now, take a bigger fleer of laptop, and count how much this is costing in time to a company. Time lost by users, time lost by having someone looking at it instead of focusing on others issues strange - and instead fix the reboot/shutdown to delay the shutdown in case of a running rpm/yum/dnf we go the crappy way of install updates offline to work around statistics? When statistics cost you money, yeah, I think that's important to take them in account. Maybe your employer do not care about this, but I strongly suspect mine does, and I strongly suspect that most companies do care about this as well. Not to mention that basically, what you suggest is that the system bypass users explicit requests to shutdown, and that doesn't sound like a improvement to me ( and again, I say that also because that's what we tried at work, and this didn't work that well ). Your proposal also do not account that by preventing shutdown/reboot on a laptop, a user that do not pay attention ( and again, this happen in real life ) could damage his computer if the laptop is still running and put in a laptop case, etc. And this is not theoretical damage. I fried my motherboard while doing something stupid like using the laptop as a ipod in my bag, despite the system shutting itself down at 80°C. sorry, but i can't see the improvement here If preventing problems and increasing reliability is not a improvement, I do not know what it is. However, since you didn't explained at all what are the issues you are facing with the new approach, and since you have only explained how you are doing on your 20 servers ( which is totally unrelated to the question of desktops, BTW, and which would still be usable at your convenience on anything you maintain ), I am quite sceptic on your whole intervention. -- Michael Scherer -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 17:46 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: So, really, it's this related point that I'm concerned about now. We _need_ to do these things in coordination, not just push a situation into F20 where we are telling our users to reboot everyday -- that's a pretty bad user experience. Even weekly feels like a lot. Then change the way that updates to the released distribution are treated. As long as we don't constrain the constant stream of barely tested updates, we *are* pretty much forcing our users to restart their system frequently. We will look at allowing non-offline updates of applications when we have applications that are truly standalone and separate from the OS itself. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Am 02.11.2013 23:21, schrieb Matthias Clasen: Then change the way that updates to the released distribution are treated. As long as we don't constrain the constant stream of barely tested updates, we *are* pretty much forcing our users to restart their system frequently. i am using updates-testing over years and often enough koji-packages too there are not much barely and problemtaic tested updates at all if someone wnats a system with less to zero updates he is using the wrong distribution and better suited with RHEL We will look at allowing non-offline updates of applications when we have applications that are truly standalone and separate from the OS itself truly standalone is static linked *no* the people using Linux systems does not want the Windows/Apple way where everyting carries his whole libraries and never ever get updated and the ones who think that they want are using the wrong operating system that may sound hard but it is the truth we do not need another clone if Windows/OSX to be successful in whatever statistics - the strength of operating systems like fedora is that they do not need to follow marketing and sales signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 06:21:34PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: So, really, it's this related point that I'm concerned about now. We _need_ to do these things in coordination, not just push a situation into F20 where we are telling our users to reboot everyday -- that's a pretty bad user experience. Even weekly feels like a lot. Then change the way that updates to the released distribution are treated. As long as we don't constrain the constant stream of barely tested updates, we *are* pretty much forcing our users to restart their system frequently. That's been proposed, but we need to work together to do that. There was a discussion at Flock, and particularly the QA team felt relucant. I've been thinking about this recently (I guess not completely by coincidence) and _do_ want to drive that forward... but not just by unilaterally changing parts of the system before it all works. We will look at allowing non-offline updates of applications when we have applications that are truly standalone and separate from the OS itself. Where here we is Gnome, again? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 18:38 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Sat, Nov 02, 2013 at 06:21:34PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: So, really, it's this related point that I'm concerned about now. We _need_ to do these things in coordination, not just push a situation into F20 where we are telling our users to reboot everyday -- that's a pretty bad user experience. Even weekly feels like a lot. Then change the way that updates to the released distribution are treated. As long as we don't constrain the constant stream of barely tested updates, we *are* pretty much forcing our users to restart their system frequently. That's been proposed, but we need to work together to do that. There was a discussion at Flock, and particularly the QA team felt relucant. I've been thinking about this recently (I guess not completely by coincidence) and _do_ want to drive that forward... but not just by unilaterally changing parts of the system before it all works. Every change has to start somewhere. But I'm not even sure what you are talking about here. In F19, update checks and notifications are controlled by two settings, frequency-get-updates and frequency-updates-notification. And their default values are 86400 and 604800 (seconds) - ie check for updates once per day, and notify once per week. Nothing is changing. We will look at allowing non-offline updates of applications when we have applications that are truly standalone and separate from the OS itself. Where here we is Gnome, again? I was referring to the people designing and implementing gnome-software. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Oct 31, 2013 11:43 PM, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.an...@gmail.com wrote: It isn't a *package* management application. It's an *application* management application, ie., it only handles packages that are desktop applications (and therefore have desktop files associated with them). I'm guessing power users that want to install other packages will need to resort to the command line: yum/dnf/packagekit-cli. I'm not really sure about this though. Someone else might know better. All users can use yumex, if they want a package management gui, there can install every thing they want but it is not installed by default in the Gnome desktop, so new user need to find out how to install it or how to to use yum from the command line. Tim -- Hmm... It sounds like yumex would be much more discoverable if it included an appdata file :) --Pete -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 11/01/2013 04:58 AM, Ankur Sinha wrote: On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 04:19 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Having as the only GUI package management application on your spin one that does not even offer all packages is very broken. It isn't a *package* management application. It's an *application* management application, ie., it only handles packages that are desktop applications (and therefore have desktop files associated with them). Why would this be useful? Just to be fashionable? I'm guessing power users that want to install other packages will need Pardon, but this sentence really causes my blood to boil! Why? Those people you are *offending* as power users, to me, are ordinary users. That said, what you are doing here, to me qualifies as playing down a functionally crippled piece of SW. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 08:03 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Why would this be useful? Just to be fashionable? No. If you haven't been following the design of gnome-software, the intent is to make it easier for users to install applications that they want, without having to dig up what package name it is known by. I'm guessing power users that want to install other packages will need Pardon, but this sentence really causes my blood to boil! Why? Because I can't see another UI that will let people install packages at the moment? Those people you are *offending* as power users, to me, are ordinary users. I'm not offending anyone. I'm offended by you saying that I am. That said, what you are doing here, to me qualifies as playing down a functionally crippled piece of SW. Gnome-software works great for me. Shifting focus to applications will make it easier for users to install applications that they use. I cannot do anything about the way you feel about things. -- Thanks, Warm regards, Ankur (FranciscoD) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha Join Fedora! Come talk to us! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 1 November 2013 06:51, Pete Travis li...@petetravis.com wrote: Hmm... It sounds like yumex would be much more discoverable if it included an appdata file :) Agreed. At the moment applications without an AppData file are shown below applications with AppData in the search results. See http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/screenshots/status.html#yumex for what yumex looks like from the software-center point of view. I've also written a blog this morning about upstream adoption of AppData: http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2013/11/01/upstream-adoption-of-appdata-so-far/ TL;DR version: We're getting there, albeit slowly. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 1 November 2013 03:19, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Having as the only GUI package management application on your spin one that does not even offer all packages is very broken. You forgot to type in my opinion... We have a notion of 'core app' - for things that 'come with the OS'. We don't allow to uninstall those. WTF!? Sure. GNOME is a complete desktop, not a collection of packages designed to be replaced. Compared to Ubuntu, certainly. But compared to gpk-application F19, I don't think so. Always the same broken assumption that Ubuntu's flawed design is the model to copy. Actually, Ubuntu Software Center allows you view packages too, although this split application/package model leads to a lot of oddness in the UI. Packages are not interesting to desktop users, they are just an implementation detail of how to get something done. e.g. Play my media file, Open this document someone sent to me. Anyone wanting to do things like install a mysql server or remove evince already knows what they are doing, and is better served using yum/dnf on the console. We wanted to write an application that rocked for a certain set of users, rather than write a generic UI that wasn't really usable by anyone. Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. Yet people visibly _are_ upset in this thread, so there's something wrong with that model :) We can't make everybody happy all the time, sure, but there must be something that can be done. * Add a release note describing how to get a GUI that shows all packages? * Make sure that yumex or a PackageKit frontend is easy to find from the application installer? ... something else? Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: Packages are not interesting to desktop users, they are just an implementation detail of how to get something done. e.g. Play my media file, Open this document someone sent to me. Anyone wanting to do things like install a mysql server or remove evince already knows what they are doing, and is better served using yum/dnf on the console. The problem is that these so-called Desktop Users dont run Fedora or other Linux Distros, they will properly run the OS there was preinstalled on there computer when they bought it. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Miloslav Trmač m...@volny.cz wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. Yet people visibly _are_ upset in this thread, so there's something wrong with that model :) By that definition every model is wrong. We can't make everybody happy all the time, sure, but there must be something that can be done. * Add a release note describing how to get a GUI that shows all packages? * Make sure that yumex or a PackageKit frontend is easy to find from the application installer? That just requires proper app data files for those applications. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: Packages are not interesting to desktop users, they are just an implementation detail of how to get something done. e.g. Play my media file, Open this document someone sent to me. Anyone wanting to do things like install a mysql server or remove evince already knows what they are doing, and is better served using yum/dnf on the console. The problem is that these so-called Desktop Users dont run Fedora or other Linux Distros, they will properly run the OS there was preinstalled on there computer when they bought it. Chicken-Egg ... but anyway most non desktop users just use yum from a terminal anyway. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 2:14 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Miloslav Trmač m...@volny.cz wrote: We can't make everybody happy all the time, sure, but there must be something that can be done. * Add a release note describing how to get a GUI that shows all packages? * Make sure that yumex or a PackageKit frontend is easy to find from the application installer? That just requires proper app data files for those applications. Sure. Is the above sufficient to address the concerns? And if so, would anyone like to volunteer to own this action so that we can consider the topic resolved? Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 11:01:57AM +, Richard Hughes wrote: We wanted to write an application that rocked for a certain set of users, rather than write a generic UI that wasn't really usable by anyone. Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. Speaking purely for myself and my own usage, I think this distinction makes plenty of sense. Except I don't even really want the old packagekit tools. If I'm looking for something desktop-application-y, an app store seems like a great feature, and I'll probably use it for convenience. If I'm looking at a lower level and thinking about _packages_, I probably am thinking from a command-line viewpoint anyway, and using yum directly is exactly what I want. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Pete Travis li...@petetravis.com wrote: Hmm... It sounds like yumex would be much more discoverable if it included an appdata file :) Done, https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/82198add9daabcfcabe9d8bb7a28ef3190e920d7/misc/yumex-appdata.xml Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 09:58:19AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: Speaking purely for myself and my own usage, I think this distinction makes plenty of sense. Except I don't even really want the old packagekit tools. If I'm looking for something desktop-application-y, an app store seems like a great feature, and I'll probably use it for convenience. Adding this as a gnome shell search provider will make this *really* slick. I see that's https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707594, but I don't see it on my F20 test box. Is this going to be in gnome 3.10 or is it for the future? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 10:05 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 09:58:19AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: Speaking purely for myself and my own usage, I think this distinction makes plenty of sense. Except I don't even really want the old packagekit tools. If I'm looking for something desktop-application-y, an app store seems like a great feature, and I'll probably use it for convenience. Adding this as a gnome shell search provider will make this *really* slick. I see that's https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707594, but I don't see it on my F20 test box. Is this going to be in gnome 3.10 or is it for the future? The search provider will appear in f21. It should already be in rawhide. Didn't make f20, since it is tied to some more invasive changes (turning gnome-software into a session service, essentially). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 1 November 2013 14:00, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/82198add9daabcfcabe9d8bb7a28ef3190e920d7/misc/yumex-appdata.xml There are numerous problems with that file, and it's not going to be used by the parser. If you read http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/appdata/ is explains what each of the tags are used for. Some issues: * You didn't escape the on line 10 (use amp;) * BR/ isn't a valid tag * The updatecontact contains and -- this is supposed to be a bare email address * The licence is not a valid content licence for the metadata In the appdata-tools package there's a binary called appdata-validate which checks AppData files for correctness and against the style guide. You probably want to use that. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 15:00 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Pete Travis li...@petetravis.com wrote: Hmm... It sounds like yumex would be much more discoverable if it included an appdata file :) Done, https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/82198add9daabcfcabe9d8bb7a28ef3190e920d7/misc/yumex-appdata.xml Great, thanks for doing that. Noticed while quickly looking over the file: - it is not valid xml: needs to be escaped as amp; - 'gui' is not a great term to use. I'd suggest rewording the first sentence maybe as 'Yum extender is a graphical package management application, ...' - Instead of 'categories' I would say 'criteria' in 'Browse packages by...'. Categories already has (too many) meanings... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 10:07:11AM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: Adding this as a gnome shell search provider will make this *really* slick. I see that's https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707594, but I don't see it on my F20 test box. Is this going to be in gnome 3.10 or is it for the future? The search provider will appear in f21. It should already be in rawhide. Didn't make f20, since it is tied to some more invasive changes (turning gnome-software into a session service, essentially). Okay, thanks. This is really cool good stuff. Guess it's time to update my other laptop to Rawhide. :) -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 1 November 2013 14:53, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Okay, thanks. This is really cool good stuff. Guess it's time to update my other laptop to Rawhide. :) For those less brave, I've uploaded a screenshot here: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/temp/gnome-software-shell-search.png Also, if you want to try this out on F20, you can use the rawhide gnome-software package if you also update glib2-* from rawhide. If you do this and file bugs, they will be ignored. :) Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
Richard Hughes (hughsi...@gmail.com) said: On 1 November 2013 14:53, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Okay, thanks. This is really cool good stuff. Guess it's time to update my other laptop to Rawhide. :) For those less brave, I've uploaded a screenshot here: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/temp/gnome-software-shell-search.png Also, if you want to try this out on F20, you can use the rawhide gnome-software package if you also update glib2-* from rawhide. If you do this and file bugs, they will be ignored. :) So if it has a session service, and a shell provider integration, does that mean we do overlays/highlighting on applications with updates pending in the shell, right-click-update in the app menu list, and other fun stuff like that? Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri 01 Nov 2013 11:31:37 EDT, Bill Nottingham wrote: Richard Hughes (hughsi...@gmail.com) said: On 1 November 2013 14:53, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Okay, thanks. This is really cool good stuff. Guess it's time to update my other laptop to Rawhide. :) For those less brave, I've uploaded a screenshot here: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/temp/gnome-software-shell-search.png Also, if you want to try this out on F20, you can use the rawhide gnome-software package if you also update glib2-* from rawhide. If you do this and file bugs, they will be ignored. :) So if it has a session service, and a shell provider integration, does that mean we do overlays/highlighting on applications with updates pending in the shell, right-click-update in the app menu list, and other fun stuff like that? Bill Or even kick off a removal of an application from the overview? --ryanlerch -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 1 November 2013 15:31, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: So if it has a session service, and a shell provider integration, does that mean we do overlays/highlighting on applications with updates pending in the shell We don't do that at the moment, but we could add that as a feature in [upstream] bugzilla as gnome-software knows when an installed application has an update pending. I'm not sure if the current search DBus interface allows that, but it's a sane request. right-click-update in the app menu list, and other fun stuff like that? Not update, we do all updates offline now. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On 1 November 2013 15:36, Ryan Lerch rle...@redhat.com wrote: Or even kick off a removal of an application from the overview? Sure, that's certainly possible, I'd just need some UI mockups to work from. Note, core apps are not removable, so we'd have to have some kind of API to ask if an app is removable before we offer the UI to remove it. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: gnome software shell search provider? [Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime?]
On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 03:29:02PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: For those less brave, I've uploaded a screenshot here: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/temp/gnome-software-shell-search.png H -- that little shopping bag doesn't _quite_ say available but not installed to me. I wonder if there's a way that could be made more clear? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: Great, thanks for doing that. Noticed while quickly looking over the file: - it is not valid xml: needs to be escaped as amp; - 'gui' is not a great term to use. I'd suggest rewording the first sentence maybe as 'Yum extender is a graphical package management application, ...' - Instead of 'categories' I would say 'criteria' in 'Browse packages by...'. Categories already has (too many) meanings... Cleaned up the appdata xml https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml but I get errors from appdata-validate $ appdata-validate yumex.appdata.xml yumex.appdata.xml 1 problems detected: • markup invalid: Error on line 1 char 1: Document must begin with an element (e.g. book) Can see what the problem is :( Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: Great, thanks for doing that. Noticed while quickly looking over the file: - it is not valid xml: needs to be escaped as amp; - 'gui' is not a great term to use. I'd suggest rewording the first sentence maybe as 'Yum extender is a graphical package management application, ...' - Instead of 'categories' I would say 'criteria' in 'Browse packages by...'. Categories already has (too many) meanings... Cleaned up the appdata xml https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml but I get errors from appdata-validate $ appdata-validate yumex.appdata.xml yumex.appdata.xml 1 problems detected: • markup invalid: Error on line 1 char 1: Document must begin with an element (e.g. book) Can see what the problem is :( That's odd ... have not looked at the code of appdata-validate (where is its upstream?) but seems like it complains about the xml header (i.e. the ?xml ...) line. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 1 November 2013 19:27, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: Cleaned up the appdata xml Thanks, https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml but I get errors from appdata-validate Can see what the problem is :( You've got some odd non-utf8 char as the very first byte in the file: diff --git a/misc/yumex.appdata.xml b/misc/yumex.appdata.xml index 640c557..2c24fa5 100644 --- a/misc/yumex.appdata.xml +++ b/misc/yumex.appdata.xml @@ -1,5 +1,4 @@ -U+FEFF?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8? -!-- Copyright 2013 Tim Lauridsen tim...@fedoraproject.org -- +?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8? application id type=desktopyumex.desktop/id licenceCC0/licence With that fixed it validates fine. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:30 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: Great, thanks for doing that. Noticed while quickly looking over the file: - it is not valid xml: needs to be escaped as amp; - 'gui' is not a great term to use. I'd suggest rewording the first sentence maybe as 'Yum extender is a graphical package management application, ...' - Instead of 'categories' I would say 'criteria' in 'Browse packages by...'. Categories already has (too many) meanings... Cleaned up the appdata xml https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml but I get errors from appdata-validate $ appdata-validate yumex.appdata.xml yumex.appdata.xml 1 problems detected: • markup invalid: Error on line 1 char 1: Document must begin with an element (e.g. book) Can see what the problem is :( That's odd ... have not looked at the code of appdata-validate (where is its upstream?) but seems like it complains about the xml header (i.e. the ?xml ...) line. -- https://github.com/hughsie/appdata-tools Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: You've got some odd non-utf8 char as the very first byte in the file: Looks like the editor has written an Unicode BOM, after removing that it validates ok Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
Hi, On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Tim Lauridsen tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: Cleaned up the appdata xml https://github.com/timlau/yumex/blob/master/misc/yumex.appdata.xml Small errors here: liControl want package repositories there is enabled for current session/li maybe should be: liControl what package repositories are enabled for the current session/li --Ray -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 11:01 +, Richard Hughes wrote: Sure. GNOME is a complete desktop, not a collection of packages designed to be replaced. Personally, I see little benefit in prohibiting users from removing core apps. If they don't like a particular program, why force it on them? Many people like to have exactly one application for each task - for me that's the GNOME application, but it's not hard to understand why people replace Epiphany with Firefox, Totem with VLC, etc. Having a few uninstallable apps isn't a huge deal, but will be annoying for many and will justifiably draw user criticism. Anyway I'm curious exactly which apps will be uninstallable: are they handpicked or is there some criterion (e.g. everything in the core moduleset? but then would you be stuck with Epiphany if you install it, even though it's not installed by default?) On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 11:01 +, Richard Hughes wrote: We wanted to write an application that rocked for a certain set of users, rather than write a generic UI that wasn't really usable by anyone. Also, given that you can easily install the old packagekit package tools using the application installer, there's really no reason to get upset at all. When they're installed at the same time, is there appropriate magic to ensure that gnome-software handles system updates, or would there be some sort of horrible competition between the two? (Maybe gpk-update-viewer should be retired entirely?) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On 02.11.2013 00:33, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 11:01 +, Richard Hughes wrote: Sure. GNOME is a complete desktop, not a collection of packages designed to be replaced. Personally, I see little benefit in prohibiting users from removing core apps. If they don't like a particular program, why force it on them? Many people like to have exactly one application for each task - for me that's the GNOME application, but it's not hard to understand why people replace Epiphany with Firefox, Totem with VLC, etc. Having a few uninstallable apps isn't a huge deal, but will be annoying for many and will justifiably draw user criticism. +1. Preventing people from uninstalling the actual core (i.e. gnome-shell, control-center, ...) is sensible, but anything beyond that is IMO excessive and not really in the spirit of freedom. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
I have tested gnome-software to see the current state, compaired to gpk in F19, there is a lot stuff there cant be done. 1. You cant install backgrounds / icons 2. Not all application found in the menu, can be found under installed, you can search for them and find them, but cant remove them (ex. Document viewer) 3. if you search for 'icons' you get at lot of wrong positives, where there is no visible relation to icons in the text shown 4. Description is missing from almost every application. This is just a few of the issues i have made bug reports on, but the main question is gnome-software ready for the one an only software manager for the primary desktop for Fedora ? I think the current state will make Fedora look limitted for new Fedora users. PS. Please dont turn this into a flame war for/against gnome :) Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 12:13 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: I have tested gnome-software to see the current state, compaired to gpk in F19, there is a lot stuff there cant be done. 1. You cant install backgrounds / icons It is an application installer, first and foremost. Installing backgrounds/icons/themes is not a priority. That being said, 3.11 can install fonts and codecs. 2. Not all application found in the menu, can be found under installed, you can search for them and find them, but cant remove them (ex. Document viewer) What menu ? And what application ? We have a notion of 'core app' - for things that 'come with the OS'. We don't allow to uninstall those. 3. if you search for 'icons' you get at lot of wrong positives, where there is no visible relation to icons in the text shown Search looks at keywords from desktop files in addition to descriptions and names. Would be good to see some concrete examples of the false positives you get. I only get gnome-tweak-tool and some icon-related font. 4. Description is missing from almost every application. Richard has pushed very hard for getting descriptions upstream - you may have seen his repeated posts on this topic. And we have made quite a bit of progress. But getting every application equipped with a good description, screenshots, and other metadata will take some time, and some help from the packagers and maintainers of those applications. I think the current state will make Fedora look limitted for new Fedora users. Compared to Ubuntu, certainly. But compared to gpk-application F19, I don't think so. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.comwrote: On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 12:13 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: I have tested gnome-software to see the current state, compaired to gpk in F19, there is a lot stuff there cant be done. 1. You cant install backgrounds / icons It is an application installer, first and foremost. Installing backgrounds/icons/themes is not a priority. That being said, 3.11 can install fonts and codecs. I know that it is an application installer, but user want to install content also and gpk can do that, so it is a regression in my world. gnome-software cant install extra backgrounds and icons https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1025209 2. Not all application found in the menu, can be found under installed, you can search for them and find them, but cant remove them (ex. Document viewer) What menu ? And what application ? We have a notion of 'core app' - for things that 'come with the OS'. We don't allow to uninstall those. It feels inconsitance that i cant remove evince, but it can remove other gnome apps like boxes and documents gnome-software dont show all installed applications https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1025250 3. if you search for 'icons' you get at lot of wrong positives, where there is no visible relation to icons in the text shown Search looks at keywords from desktop files in addition to descriptions and names. Would be good to see some concrete examples of the false positives you get. I only get gnome-tweak-tool and some icon-related font. search in package description, but dont show it https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1021889 4. Description is missing from almost every application. Richard has pushed very hard for getting descriptions upstream - you may have seen his repeated posts on this topic. And we have made quite a bit of progress. But getting every application equipped with a good description, screenshots, and other metadata will take some time, and some help from the packagers and maintainers of those applications. I know Richard has pushed hard to get appdata for apps, but it do help the end user, if lot of apps in gnome-software dont have any descriptions. Look at System - File Tools - Caja-actions configuration tool How should an end user have a clue what this app does ? I think the current state will make Fedora look limitted for new Fedora users. Compared to Ubuntu, certainly. But compared to gpk-application F19, I don't think so. A tool like gnome-software targets novice enduser (IMHO) and more advanced user will tools like yum, dnf or yumex So I try to look at it like a novice end user, and they fill see a more friendly user interface, but they will not be able to find the things they are look for. The Fedora art team has done a great job find good extra background images, but you have to use a command line to install it on the current F10 gnome desktop, I is not a good user experiense i my book. Personal it is not a problem for me, but I would like Fedora to be as good as possible for new users, so i took some time to install the gnome desktop and check the state of thing and report the issues I have found. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 14:31 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 12:13 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: I have tested gnome-software to see the current state, compaired to gpk in F19, there is a lot stuff there cant be done. 1. You cant install backgrounds / icons It is an application installer, first and foremost. Installing backgrounds/icons/themes is not a priority. That being said, 3.11 can install fonts and codecs. I know that it is an application installer, but user want to install content also and gpk can do that, so it is a regression in my world. 'Regression' does not really apply. gnome-software is not aiming to be a 1-1 replacement for gpk-application. Wrt to backgrounds, I would say that installing them in packages is really suboptimal, and we should look for ways to make backgrounds from online sources show up in the background panel. I know Richard has pushed hard to get appdata for apps, but it do help the end user, if lot of apps in gnome-software dont have any descriptions. Look at System - File Tools - Caja-actions configuration tool Get the cinnamon guys to fork the nautilus appdata ? I'm sure it will only need minor adjustments... :-) Personal it is not a problem for me, but I would like Fedora to be as good as possible for new users, so i took some time to install the gnome desktop and check the state of thing and report the issues I have found. Thanks for doing that. Your feedback is appreciated! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
Matthias Clasen wrote: On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 14:31 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: Look at System - File Tools - Caja-actions configuration tool Get the cinnamon guys to fork the nautilus appdata ? I'm sure it will only need minor adjustments... :-) Caja is actually from MATE, Cinnamon has Nemo. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
Matthias Clasen wrote: It is an application installer, first and foremost. Installing backgrounds/icons/themes is not a priority. Having as the only GUI package management application on your spin one that does not even offer all packages is very broken. We have a notion of 'core app' - for things that 'come with the OS'. We don't allow to uninstall those. WTF!? Compared to Ubuntu, certainly. But compared to gpk-application F19, I don't think so. Always the same broken assumption that Ubuntu's flawed design is the model to copy. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 14:31 +0100, Tim Lauridsen wrote: I know Richard has pushed hard to get appdata for apps, but it do help the end user, if lot of apps in gnome-software dont have any descriptions. Look at System - File Tools - Caja-actions configuration tool How should an end user have a clue what this app does ? This really does require package maintainers to pay attention and include appdata files for their packages. I've done quite a few, for packages that I maintain and ones that I use. However, sending appdata files upstream requires new bugtracker accounts and since existing package maintainers are supposed to have these already, it's really best if they write up and include appstream data, or at least take submissions from the community and send them upstream. I've requested a list of packages missing appdata[1]. Once I have that, I'll go ahead and file bugs in the hope that it'll get maintainers to take out the five minutes required to write and submit these. [1] https://github.com/hughsie/fedora-appstream/issues/13 -- Thanks, Warm regards, Ankur (FranciscoD) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha Join Fedora! Come talk to us! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 04:19 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Having as the only GUI package management application on your spin one that does not even offer all packages is very broken. It isn't a *package* management application. It's an *application* management application, ie., it only handles packages that are desktop applications (and therefore have desktop files associated with them). I'm guessing power users that want to install other packages will need to resort to the command line: yum/dnf/packagekit-cli. I'm not really sure about this though. Someone else might know better. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/AppInstaller -- Thanks, Warm regards, Ankur (FranciscoD) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha Join Fedora! Come talk to us! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Is Gnome Software ready for primetime ?
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.an...@gmail.com wrote: It isn't a *package* management application. It's an *application* management application, ie., it only handles packages that are desktop applications (and therefore have desktop files associated with them). I'm guessing power users that want to install other packages will need to resort to the command line: yum/dnf/packagekit-cli. I'm not really sure about this though. Someone else might know better. All users can use yumex, if they want a package management gui, there can install every thing they want but it is not installed by default in the Gnome desktop, so new user need to find out how to install it or how to to use yum from the command line. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
