Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miro Hrončok]

On 18. 03. 19 22:58, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

The actual effect of this is that I'm going to disable Java bindings
for all the affected packages.  Java loses, Fedora loses.


Everybody looses :(

--
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:34:23AM +0100, Jakub Jelen wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-03-15 at 19:36 -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 23:48:49 +0100, you wrote:
> > 
> > > * Richard W.M. Jones [15/03/2019 20:23] :
> > > > Is Java being dropped from the distro?
> > > 
> > > Yes, that's what we were warned about months ago.
> > 
> > Don't think so.
> > 
> > Nothing has been said about dropping Java, and if anything the
> > OpenJDK
> > packagers have been more active with having multiple versions of Java
> > now being necessary.
> > 
> > However a bunch of Java packages are being retired, and those
> > packages
> > are required for a bunch of other packages.
> 
> No. The java is not dropped from distro, but moved from normal release
> cycle to the modular release for better packaging experience and so on.
> Yes, the side effect of the moving is that the rawhide branch is
> orphaned and will be retired unless somebody else will maintain it. And
> yes, this will bring with it many other packages that depend on that,
> because there is no way to build them against the java packages in the
> modules (I did not even managed to find a way how to build my package
> as a module against this java-packages module so I gave up again after
> few more tries last week).

The actual effect of this is that I'm going to disable Java bindings
for all the affected packages.  Java loses, Fedora loses.

Rich.

> For the record, there is a fesco ticket discussing the delay of the
> retiring, hopefully before we will have a way to build these packages
> again:
> 
> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2104
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Jakub Jelen
> Software Engineer
> Security Technologies
> Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 05:35, Jakub Jelen  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2019-03-15 at 19:36 -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 23:48:49 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> > > * Richard W.M. Jones [15/03/2019 20:23] :
> > > > Is Java being dropped from the distro?
> > >
> > > Yes, that's what we were warned about months ago.
> >
> > Don't think so.
> >
> > Nothing has been said about dropping Java, and if anything the
> > OpenJDK
> > packagers have been more active with having multiple versions of Java
> > now being necessary.
> >
> > However a bunch of Java packages are being retired, and those
> > packages
> > are required for a bunch of other packages.
>
> No. The java is not dropped from distro, but moved from normal release
> cycle to the modular release for better packaging experience and so on.
> Yes, the side effect of the moving is that the rawhide branch is
> orphaned and will be retired unless somebody else will maintain it. And
> yes, this will bring with it many other packages that depend on that,
> because there is no way to build them against the java packages in the
> modules (I did not even managed to find a way how to build my package
> as a module against this java-packages module so I gave up again after
> few more tries last week).
>

To me this all looks like a game of Othello where one side of the
board is white, but black keeps laying down pieces and changing large
areas to their colour. [Or in other board games where strategic moves
of packages means everything else has to swap over to remain viable.]
Even with 'ursa major' to slow it down, it is still an 'inevitability'
that large parts of the distribution will fall into modularity space
in the next couple of releases.. if only because people will start
making '1 package' modules of whatever they are maintaining so they
can keep their dependencies.


> For the record, there is a fesco ticket discussing the delay of the
> retiring, hopefully before we will have a way to build these packages
> again:
>
> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2104
>
> Regards,
> --
> Jakub Jelen
> Software Engineer
> Security Technologies
> Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Jakub Jelen]

On Fri, 2019-03-15 at 19:36 -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 23:48:49 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> > * Richard W.M. Jones [15/03/2019 20:23] :
> > > Is Java being dropped from the distro?
> > 
> > Yes, that's what we were warned about months ago.
> 
> Don't think so.
> 
> Nothing has been said about dropping Java, and if anything the
> OpenJDK
> packagers have been more active with having multiple versions of Java
> now being necessary.
> 
> However a bunch of Java packages are being retired, and those
> packages
> are required for a bunch of other packages.

No. The java is not dropped from distro, but moved from normal release
cycle to the modular release for better packaging experience and so on.
Yes, the side effect of the moving is that the rawhide branch is
orphaned and will be retired unless somebody else will maintain it. And
yes, this will bring with it many other packages that depend on that,
because there is no way to build them against the java packages in the
modules (I did not even managed to find a way how to build my package
as a module against this java-packages module so I gave up again after
few more tries last week).

For the record, there is a fesco ticket discussing the delay of the
retiring, hopefully before we will have a way to build these packages
again:

https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2104

Regards,
-- 
Jakub Jelen
Software Engineer
Security Technologies
Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Gerald Henriksen]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 23:48:49 +0100, you wrote:

>* Richard W.M. Jones [15/03/2019 20:23] :

>> Is Java being dropped from the distro?
>
>Yes, that's what we were warned about months ago.

Don't think so.

Nothing has been said about dropping Java, and if anything the OpenJDK
packagers have been more active with having multiple versions of Java
now being necessary.

However a bunch of Java packages are being retired, and those packages
are required for a bunch of other packages.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Richard W.M. Jones [15/03/2019 20:23] :
>
> These are very important packages.  What do we have to do here?

I'm going to repeat this until it sinks in...

If you (this is the generic you, not you specifically) want these
packages to be in the distribution, you need to step up and ask for
maintainership of said packages or incite people who are interested
in maintaining Java packages to do so.

> Is Java being dropped from the distro?

Yes, that's what we were warned about months ago.

Emmanuel
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 12:40:00PM -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:38:47AM +0100, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> >> rjones: apache-ivy, maven-jar-plugin, maven-javadoc-plugin, gradle,
> >> xmvn, plexus-utils
> > 
> > I'm unclear what if anything I could do (apart from maintaining loads
> > of Java packages which isn't going to happen).  Is the email saying
> > that some package of mine depends on these?  And if so which one?
> 
> The list of the expanded deps was quite large, so Miro
> included a link to it in his message:
> 
> >> Grep the list for your FAS name, follow the transitive deps:
> >> https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans-2019-03-11.txt

I couldn't find this by grepping my username, but thanks
for the link.

> $ grep rjones[^:] /tmp/orphans-2019-03-11.txt | sort -u
> erlang (maintained by: gemi, jeckersb, ndim, peter, rjones, skottler)
> libguestfs (maintained by: mdbooth, ptoscano, rjones)
> qemu (maintained by: amitshah, berrange, bonzini, crobinso, dwmw2, 
> ehabkost, jforbes, lkundrak, quintela, rjones, virtmaint-sig)

These are very important packages.  What do we have to do here?
Is Java being dropped from the distro?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
libguestfs lets you edit virtual machines.  Supports shell scripting,
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Todd Zullinger]

Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:38:47AM +0100, Miro Hrončok wrote:
>> rjones: apache-ivy, maven-jar-plugin, maven-javadoc-plugin, gradle,
>> xmvn, plexus-utils
> 
> I'm unclear what if anything I could do (apart from maintaining loads
> of Java packages which isn't going to happen).  Is the email saying
> that some package of mine depends on these?  And if so which one?

The list of the expanded deps was quite large, so Miro
included a link to it in his message:

>> Grep the list for your FAS name, follow the transitive deps:
>> https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans-2019-03-11.txt

$ grep rjones[^:] /tmp/orphans-2019-03-11.txt | sort -u
erlang (maintained by: gemi, jeckersb, ndim, peter, rjones, skottler)
libguestfs (maintained by: mdbooth, ptoscano, rjones)
qemu (maintained by: amitshah, berrange, bonzini, crobinso, dwmw2, 
ehabkost, jforbes, lkundrak, quintela, rjones, virtmaint-sig)

-- 
Todd


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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:38:47AM +0100, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> rjones: apache-ivy, maven-jar-plugin, maven-javadoc-plugin, gradle,
> xmvn, plexus-utils

I'm unclear what if anything I could do (apart from maintaining loads
of Java packages which isn't going to happen).  Is the email saying
that some package of mine depends on these?  And if so which one?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
libguestfs lets you edit virtual machines.  Supports shell scripting,
bindings from many languages.  http://libguestfs.org
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Orcan Ogetbil]

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 06:53, Miro Hrončok wrote:
>
> You can build Java apps as modules, yes.
> If we remove the mentioned packages from rawhide, it will be the only way to
> build Java packages.

How are the Java applications that come with C (JNI) extensions
handled in the modules model? How do they get the mass rebuilds due to
compiler/build flags/C library updates etc?

Thank you,
Orcan
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miro Hrončok]

On 13. 03. 19 18:05, Christopher wrote:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:07 AM Randy Barlow
 wrote:


On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 18:39 -0400, Christopher wrote:

Well, the packager experience I'm expecting in 3 weeks is: "almost
all
of my dependencies and BuildRequires are gone; I can't build
anything".
How much worse could it get than that?


Fair. I don't think we anticipated the large migration that happened
when we were discussing it, or at least, I personally don't recall
anyone bringing this up as a potential issue.


One of the threads on this topic included the phrase "everything will
most likely burn". So, it was certainly mentioned that it was a
serious issue. Mikolaj also stressed the importance of this issue
several times. Whether anybody took it seriously or not as an issue is
another matter, but it was definitely raised as a "potential issue".


That was me (the "everything will most likely burn" subject).
I take this seriously. Not seriously enough to allow half baked solution that 
will break more things, but seriously enough to be concerned and care.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Christopher]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 6:23 AM Mikolaj Izdebski  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:21 AM Fabio Valentini  wrote:
> > Can you give us a minimal set of packages that is required to make sure 
> > libreoffice etc. aren't caught up in the mass retirement?
>
> The minimal package set is the contents of javapackages-tools module,
> stream 201801. There are about 185 packages in that module. That set
> of packages is self-hosting (doesn't depend on any other Java packages
> except OpenJDK) and gives you two basic build systems (Maven, Ant)
> with RPM integration.

Is it possible to use that module in F29? I don't want to move to
rawhide, since I'm a Fedora user first, and a packager second.
I don't see javapackages-tools in `sudo dnf module list`.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Christopher]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:07 AM Randy Barlow
 wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 18:39 -0400, Christopher wrote:
> > Well, the packager experience I'm expecting in 3 weeks is: "almost
> > all
> > of my dependencies and BuildRequires are gone; I can't build
> > anything".
> > How much worse could it get than that?
>
> Fair. I don't think we anticipated the large migration that happened
> when we were discussing it, or at least, I personally don't recall
> anyone bringing this up as a potential issue.

One of the threads on this topic included the phrase "everything will
most likely burn". So, it was certainly mentioned that it was a
serious issue. Mikolaj also stressed the importance of this issue
several times. Whether anybody took it seriously or not as an issue is
another matter, but it was definitely raised as a "potential issue".
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Randy Barlow]

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 18:39 -0400, Christopher wrote:
> Well, the packager experience I'm expecting in 3 weeks is: "almost
> all
> of my dependencies and BuildRequires are gone; I can't build
> anything".
> How much worse could it get than that?

Fair. I don't think we anticipated the large migration that happened
when we were discussing it, or at least, I personally don't recall
anyone bringing this up as a potential issue.


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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 12:49 PM Florian Weimer  wrote:
>
> * Mikolaj Izdebski:
>
> >> As far as I understand it, under the Koji model, one of the tags wins,
> >> and which one determines whether you get the Python 2 subpackage or the
> >> Python 3 subpackage.  You cannot get both.  You will need two or more
> >> buildroots for that.
> >
> > That used to be the case, but for some time Koji supports
> > "repo_include_all" option [1] that has the exact effect you describe -
> > when set it makes build repos include all tagged RPMs, even if they
> > come from different SRPMs that happen to have the same name.
> >
> > [1] https://pagure.io/koji/issue/588
>
> *Very* interesting.
>
> Could this be used to address this issue, too?
>
>   
>
> (Including select i686 packages in the x86_64 buildroot.)

No, not by itself. repo_include_all won't lead to inclusion of RPMs
with non-matching arches.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Florian Weimer]

* Mikolaj Izdebski:

>> As far as I understand it, under the Koji model, one of the tags wins,
>> and which one determines whether you get the Python 2 subpackage or the
>> Python 3 subpackage.  You cannot get both.  You will need two or more
>> buildroots for that.
>
> That used to be the case, but for some time Koji supports
> "repo_include_all" option [1] that has the exact effect you describe -
> when set it makes build repos include all tagged RPMs, even if they
> come from different SRPMs that happen to have the same name.
>
> [1] https://pagure.io/koji/issue/588

*Very* interesting.

Could this be used to address this issue, too?

  

(Including select i686 packages in the x86_64 buildroot.)

Thanks,
Florian
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 11:59 AM Florian Weimer  wrote:
>
> * Mikolaj Izdebski:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:42 PM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
> >> Alternative sum up:
> >> * People (not just Mikolaj) started using modules, while Koji cannot use 
> >> modular repos.
> >
> > Incorrect. Koji (the software) *can* use modular repos. I know of more
> > than one installation of Koji that successfully builds non-modular
> > contents against modules.
>
> Which installation would that be?  I would be surprised if there was
> *any* module-capable version of Koji out there.

Private installations that are not accessible publicly. I run one of
them myself.

> For example, is there a Koji version that can handle correctly the case
> where one module provides Python 2 subpackages of a source RPM, and
> another module provides Python 3 subpackages from a source RPM of the
> same name?

Yes, Koji can do that, since version 1.14.

> As far as I understand it, under the Koji model, one of the tags wins,
> and which one determines whether you get the Python 2 subpackage or the
> Python 3 subpackage.  You cannot get both.  You will need two or more
> buildroots for that.

That used to be the case, but for some time Koji supports
"repo_include_all" option [1] that has the exact effect you describe -
when set it makes build repos include all tagged RPMs, even if they
come from different SRPMs that happen to have the same name.

[1] https://pagure.io/koji/issue/588

--
Mikolaj
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Florian Weimer]

* Mikolaj Izdebski:

> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:42 PM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
>> Alternative sum up:
>> * People (not just Mikolaj) started using modules, while Koji cannot use 
>> modular repos.
>
> Incorrect. Koji (the software) *can* use modular repos. I know of more
> than one installation of Koji that successfully builds non-modular
> contents against modules.

Which installation would that be?  I would be surprised if there was
*any* module-capable version of Koji out there.

For example, is there a Koji version that can handle correctly the case
where one module provides Python 2 subpackages of a source RPM, and
another module provides Python 3 subpackages from a source RPM of the
same name?

As far as I understand it, under the Koji model, one of the tags wins,
and which one determines whether you get the Python 2 subpackage or the
Python 3 subpackage.  You cannot get both.  You will need two or more
buildroots for that.

Thanks,
Florian
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:21 AM Fabio Valentini  wrote:
> Can you give us a minimal set of packages that is required to make sure 
> libreoffice etc. aren't caught up in the mass retirement?

The minimal package set is the contents of javapackages-tools module,
stream 201801. There are about 185 packages in that module. That set
of packages is self-hosting (doesn't depend on any other Java packages
except OpenJDK) and gives you two basic build systems (Maven, Ant)
with RPM integration.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 3/13/19 9:45 AM, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:

* Hans de Goede [13/03/2019 08:51] :


A solution for this needs to be found and be in place *before* dropping
these packages not the otherway around.


We've known the solution for months, now.

If you (this is the generic you, not you specifically) want these packages
to be in the distribution, you need to step up and ask for maintainership
of said packages.

It's that simple, folks.


Sure I already own 150 pkgs I can take 4-5 more without really noticing
it, but I will only be fixing FTBFS errors and other blockers on them,
while at the same time they are being actively, probably better,
maintained in modules, so now we have a "kept alive as dep only" version
in base and an active maintained version in a module, this seems undesirable.

But lets get specific, one of the main issues here is all java packages
depending on javapackages-tools, which according to the top-post of
this thread is going away. Do we really want someone who maintains a
few leave packages which happen to depend on java to take this in base?

Also javapackages-tools does not look orphaned here:
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/javapackages-tools

So has the orphaning of that one been undone ?

Regards,

Hans
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Jakub Jelen]

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 21:24 +0100, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 3:11 PM Jakub Jelen 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 13:43 +0200, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> > > Hmm,
> > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/java-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/MQMRQVENBLDRS67WLNQ7EOCMSDI5WIET/
> > > seems that people had a lot of time to act and get involved.
> > 
> > Unfortunately not everyone who happens to maintain a java package
> > is in
> > the java SIG and reading the mails there so I think this mail
> > should
> > have been sent at least to fedora-devel too, maybe even announce
> > since
> > it is touching so many packages (dependencies).
> 
> I did send an announcement to devel list several months before to
> orphaning packages. The above message from java-devel was linked on
> devel list.
> See: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/YFUXS7ZX6UDEMEKJWONKFMVDTSBABZID/

Thank you for pointing to the thread. Really, but saying "some" is not
what was is happening now. If it would say "most of", I could have
stopped to read it half a year ago.

> > I see that Mikolaj already did a lot of work of moving his packages
> > to
> > the modules, so a mail with simple instructions "this is a list of
> > things that I did for my packages and if you depend on them, do it
> > also", would save many maintainers as me hours of searching the
> > sparse
> > modularity documentation.
> 
> The approach I used to build my modules should be described in "MBI
> (playground 2.0)" on this list. I don't want to spend too much time
> on
> describing the process in very detail - I am actively working on an
> improved process that will require less resources.

This is very appreciated. I read through that email thread and the
document, but I was not really more clever from that.

Just out of curiosity I started reading through the list of packaged
that I would have to take to build my package and that is more than I
am really able to handle. And especially when you are working on better
way to package it in modules, it feels like waste of resources and 
time.

I would appreciate if there would be a way to build normal packages
against modules (somehow?), but if using modules has only advantages, I
would be very interested to do that too with my Java package. But as
already said by more people around, we really do not know how and we do
not have so much spare time to figure all of the details.

Regards,
-- 
Jakub Jelen
Software Engineer
Security Technologies
Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Hans de Goede [13/03/2019 08:51] :
>
> A solution for this needs to be found and be in place *before* dropping
> these packages not the otherway around.

We've known the solution for months, now.

If you (this is the generic you, not you specifically) want these packages
to be in the distribution, you need to step up and ask for maintainership
of said packages.

It's that simple, folks.

Emmanuel
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Hans de Goede]

Hi,

On 12-03-19 11:38, Miro Hrončok wrote:

The following packages are orphaned and will be retired when they
are orphaned for six weeks, unless someone adopts them. If you know for sure
that the package should be retired, please do so now with a proper reason:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

Note: If you received this mail directly you (co)maintain one of the affected
packages or a package that depends on one. Please adopt the affected package or
retire your depending package to avoid broken dependencies, otherwise your
package will be retired when the affected package gets retired.

Grep the list for your FAS name, follow the transitive deps:
https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans-2019-03-11.txt



I'm sorry but just dropping all the java packages because they have
been moved to modules, totally breaking rawhide is simply unacceptable.

A solution for this needs to be found and be in place *before* dropping
these packages not the otherway around.

We are working to make rawhide more stable:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/GatingRawhideSinglePackageUpdates
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure_2020/Rawhide_Gating

Yet we are going to go ahead with this java package removal and
break the world? That is just totally unacceptable. I've filed a
FESCo issue requesting FESCo to block this:

https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2104

Regards,

Hans


p.s.

I must admit that I've been too busy with other things to closely
follow the whole modularity process. So far most talk has been
about BuildRequires, but what about regular Requires, can a
package in the base repo have a Requires on a package only
available in a module ?



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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Fabio Valentini]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 07:42 Alexander Bokovoy  wrote:

> On ke, 13 maalis 2019, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> >On Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 22:37 Mikolaj Izdebski  wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> >> > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen 
> >> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a
> module or
> >> > > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> >> > >
> >> > > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> >> > > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> >> > > removal from distribution.
> >> >
> >> > Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> >> > their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> >> > maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages
> available
> >> > as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> >> > packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> >> > it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> >> > non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> >> > that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of
> quite a
> >> > few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> >> > That's not excellent.
> >>
> >> I am not forcing anyone to do anything. If I followed your thinking
> >> then I colud say that by not adopting orphaned packages you are
> >> forcing others to do the same things you accuse me of forcing people
> >> to.
> >>
> >
> >Still, by making your life a bit easier (by dropping "normal" packages and
> >moving everything to modules), you make the life of every packager that
> >depends on those packages harder.
> >
> >Can you give us a minimal set of packages that is required to make sure
> >libreoffice etc. aren't caught up in the mass retirement?
> >
> >I could try to figure that out from the contents of the linked dependency
> >graph, but you probably already have that information somewhere.
> >
> >We might want to look for maintainers for that minimal set, at least. (I
> >think my Package Stewardship SIG idea is showing its merits here ...)
> Another, pragmatic, approach would be to actually postpone or revert
> orphaning process for all those packages now that there is understanding
> that FESCO is not opposed and is merely looking for a satisfying
> technical solution. I've been told by contyk and others that it is
> closer to reality now.
>

This might come across as cynical, but a "solution" has been "just around
the corner" for months / years, but these they have so far all been
scrapped again.

Fabio


> --
> / Alexander Bokovoy
> Sr. Principal Software Engineer
> Security / Identity Management Engineering
> Red Hat Limited, Finland
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Alexander Bokovoy]

On ke, 13 maalis 2019, Fabio Valentini wrote:

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 22:37 Mikolaj Izdebski  wrote:


On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen 
wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> >
> > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> > removal from distribution.
>
> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> That's not excellent.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. If I followed your thinking
then I colud say that by not adopting orphaned packages you are
forcing others to do the same things you accuse me of forcing people
to.



Still, by making your life a bit easier (by dropping "normal" packages and
moving everything to modules), you make the life of every packager that
depends on those packages harder.

Can you give us a minimal set of packages that is required to make sure
libreoffice etc. aren't caught up in the mass retirement?

I could try to figure that out from the contents of the linked dependency
graph, but you probably already have that information somewhere.

We might want to look for maintainers for that minimal set, at least. (I
think my Package Stewardship SIG idea is showing its merits here ...)

Another, pragmatic, approach would be to actually postpone or revert
orphaning process for all those packages now that there is understanding
that FESCO is not opposed and is merely looking for a satisfying
technical solution. I've been told by contyk and others that it is
closer to reality now.

--
/ Alexander Bokovoy
Sr. Principal Software Engineer
Security / Identity Management Engineering
Red Hat Limited, Finland
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Fabio Valentini]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 22:37 Mikolaj Izdebski  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
>  wrote:
> >
> > On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> > > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> > >
> > > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> > > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> > > removal from distribution.
> >
> > Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> > their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> > maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
> > as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> > packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> > it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> > non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> > that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
> > few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> > That's not excellent.
>
> I am not forcing anyone to do anything. If I followed your thinking
> then I colud say that by not adopting orphaned packages you are
> forcing others to do the same things you accuse me of forcing people
> to.
>

Still, by making your life a bit easier (by dropping "normal" packages and
moving everything to modules), you make the life of every packager that
depends on those packages harder.

Can you give us a minimal set of packages that is required to make sure
libreoffice etc. aren't caught up in the mass retirement?

I could try to figure that out from the contents of the linked dependency
graph, but you probably already have that information somewhere.

We might want to look for maintainers for that minimal set, at least. (I
think my Package Stewardship SIG idea is showing its merits here ...)

Fabio


> >
> > Regards,
> > Dominik
> > --
> > Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
> > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Christopher]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:03 PM Randy Barlow
 wrote:
> As Miro said in another post, it's not that FESCo doesn't want to use
> modules in Koji, it's that we want to make sure that the packager
> experience is as good as it was pre-modularity, and in particular that
> packagers can build locally as they can today. IIRC, there were
> specific concerns about the details of the proposal to use Ursa Major
> that were raised at the time.

Well, the packager experience I'm expecting in 3 weeks is: "almost all
of my dependencies and BuildRequires are gone; I can't build
anything".
How much worse could it get than that?
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Randy Barlow]

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 22:18 +0100, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> It's Fedora developers (represented by
> elected body of FESCo) that don't want to use modules in Fedoras'
> Koji
> installation.

As Miro said in another post, it's not that FESCo doesn't want to use
modules in Koji, it's that we want to make sure that the packager
experience is as good as it was pre-modularity, and in particular that
packagers can build locally as they can today. IIRC, there were
specific concerns about the details of the proposal to use Ursa Major
that were raised at the time.

I do think most of FESCo does want to see the problem solved.


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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miro Hrončok]

On 12. 03. 19 22:11, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:

I hope FESCo
will finally realize how important it is to allow building any package
against modules and change the policy, allowing modules to be used as
build dependencies for non-modular packages.


Oh we do realize. Especially since everything will break if we don't do this.
This was not rejected because we don't want to allow this, but because we were 
not satisfied with the technical solution.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> >
> > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> > removal from distribution.
>
> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> That's not excellent.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. If I followed your thinking
then I colud say that by not adopting orphaned packages you are
forcing others to do the same things you accuse me of forcing people
to.

>
> Regards,
> Dominik
> --
> Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> ___
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:42 PM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
> Alternative sum up:
> * People (not just Mikolaj) started using modules, while Koji cannot use 
> modular repos.

Incorrect. Koji (the software) *can* use modular repos. I know of more
than one installation of Koji that successfully builds non-modular
contents against modules. It's Fedora developers (represented by
elected body of FESCo) that don't want to use modules in Fedoras' Koji
installation.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:20 PM Christopher  wrote:
> Addendum: some of us part-time packagers, which depended on these
> packages to build our own Java packages don't know how to convert to
> modular packaging. I'm still trying to learn in my spare time, but I
> don't know where to look and have limited time. It was nearly all the
> spare cycles I had just to learn RPM, Fedora RPM packaging policies,
> and how to use fedpkg, koji, and bodhi. Now... I'm kinda lost again
> and feel like I'm starting over from scratch. I can't be the only one.
> I still think a lot of this is being driven by experienced Fedora
> packagers, and those involved in composes, but without a lot of regard
> to the casual or relatively inexperienced packager. pkgdb was a highly
> usable tool for inexperienced packagers, as it was a "one stop shop"
> for everything related to your package... but now... it's hard to find
> all the tools you need to do packaging.
>
> I have several Java packages that depend on one another, as well as
> dependencies now in modular repos. I have no idea where to get
> started. Which ones should be in the same module? Should each RPM be
> put in separate modules? How do I create convert my packages to
> modules? What is the workflow for builds? For updates? Do I still use
> fedpkg to submit to koji and bodhi? How will users install my RPMs
> now? I feel a bit overwhelmed by all of this... and I'm sure I should
> be spending more time trying to figure all this out on my own... but I
> really don't know where to start.

With "addon modularity" approach we currently use people shouldn't be
required to convert anything to modules. The idea is that parts of
Fedora can be modularized upon maintainer discretion. This change
should be transparent to users that are not aware of modularity.
Likewise, other Fedora developers should be able to maintain their
packages, even if their dependencies move to modules. That is not
possible without ordinary (non-modular, "ursine") packages being able
to be built against modular content. Unfortunately Fedora developers
(represented by FESCo) decided to forbid use of modules for building
non-modular packages. This was a sad and very disappointing decision
to read about and it was the direct cause that made me make the final
decision to orphan all packages I used to maintain for years.

Personally I think modularity is a great tool that will allow *me* to
reduce the effort needed to maintain packages and at the same time
improve user experience. But your mileage may vary. The effort that
packagers need to make in order to learn the new technology and change
their workflow may greatly outweight any possible gain from
modularity, especially for packagers that maintain fewer packages.
Therefore I discourage developers from moving their packages to
modules if they don't see the benefit for them and their users.
Instead I encourage people to talk about the problem. I hope FESCo
will finally realize how important it is to allow building any package
against modules and change the policy, allowing modules to be used as
build dependencies for non-modular packages.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 3:11 PM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 13:43 +0200, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> > Hmm,
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/java-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/MQMRQVENBLDRS67WLNQ7EOCMSDI5WIET/
> > seems that people had a lot of time to act and get involved.
>
> Unfortunately not everyone who happens to maintain a java package is in
> the java SIG and reading the mails there so I think this mail should
> have been sent at least to fedora-devel too, maybe even announce since
> it is touching so many packages (dependencies).

I did send an announcement to devel list several months before to
orphaning packages. The above message from java-devel was linked on
devel list.
See: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/YFUXS7ZX6UDEMEKJWONKFMVDTSBABZID/

> I see that Mikolaj already did a lot of work of moving his packages to
> the modules, so a mail with simple instructions "this is a list of
> things that I did for my packages and if you depend on them, do it
> also", would save many maintainers as me hours of searching the sparse
> modularity documentation.

The approach I used to build my modules should be described in "MBI
(playground 2.0)" on this list. I don't want to spend too much time on
describing the process in very detail - I am actively working on an
improved process that will require less resources.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Christopher]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:43 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
>
> Dne 12. 03. 19 v 12:34 Neal Gompa napsal(a):
> > This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
> > * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> > didn't know how to ask for help
> > * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
> > modularization
> > * This caused everyone dependent on those packages to freak
> > * And here we are in the bad ending...
>
> Alternative sum up:
> * People (not just Mikolaj) started using modules, while Koji cannot use 
> modular repos.
>

Addendum: some of us part-time packagers, which depended on these
packages to build our own Java packages don't know how to convert to
modular packaging. I'm still trying to learn in my spare time, but I
don't know where to look and have limited time. It was nearly all the
spare cycles I had just to learn RPM, Fedora RPM packaging policies,
and how to use fedpkg, koji, and bodhi. Now... I'm kinda lost again
and feel like I'm starting over from scratch. I can't be the only one.
I still think a lot of this is being driven by experienced Fedora
packagers, and those involved in composes, but without a lot of regard
to the casual or relatively inexperienced packager. pkgdb was a highly
usable tool for inexperienced packagers, as it was a "one stop shop"
for everything related to your package... but now... it's hard to find
all the tools you need to do packaging.

I have several Java packages that depend on one another, as well as
dependencies now in modular repos. I have no idea where to get
started. Which ones should be in the same module? Should each RPM be
put in separate modules? How do I create convert my packages to
modules? What is the workflow for builds? For updates? Do I still use
fedpkg to submit to koji and bodhi? How will users install my RPMs
now? I feel a bit overwhelmed by all of this... and I'm sure I should
be spending more time trying to figure all this out on my own... but I
really don't know where to start.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miroslav Suchý]

Dne 12. 03. 19 v 12:34 Neal Gompa napsal(a):
> This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
> * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> didn't know how to ask for help
> * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
> modularization
> * This caused everyone dependent on those packages to freak
> * And here we are in the bad ending...

Alternative sum up:
* People (not just Mikolaj) started using modules, while Koji cannot use 
modular repos.

Miroslav
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Randy Barlow]

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 12:16 +0100, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
wrote:
> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of
> their
> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages
> available
> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans.
> If
> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of
> quite a
> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> That's not excellent.

It's important to keep in mind that many of us volunteer to work on
Fedora, including those of us who work at Red Hat (and even including
those of us who work at Red Hat full time on Fedora!) I do personally
wish we had RPM maintainers for these Java packages, but I don't think
we should make demands from our volunteers. That's not how a community
project works. I think it's OK to express that we wish there were RPMs
for these packages, but we shouldn't blame any particular person when
that doesn't happen. Things happen in open source when people do the
work to make those things happen. As much as I wish we could save these
packages, I am not going to choose to use my time that way. So the most
I would say about it is "it'd be nice if someone else volunteered to do
that work".

I sometimes receive bug reports in Bodhi where the reporter has a
demanding attitude. I welcome bug reports, but I also have to be honest
that maintaining Bodhi is far more work than the people who show up to
do it can handle.  Most things in Bodhi will only happen if someone
volunteers to write the code, so most of the bugs we get filed aren't
going to get worked on. It's not helpful to either party if the
reporter has a demanding attitude.


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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Jakub Jelen]

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 13:43 +0200, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:36 PM Neal Gompa 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:29 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov <
> > akurt...@redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> > domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen <
> > > > > jje...@redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a
> > > > > > module
> > or
> > > > > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already
> > > > > packaged as
> > > > > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause
> > > > > their
> > > > > removal from distribution.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that
> > > > depend on
> > > > their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands
> > > > of their
> > > > maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages
> > > > available
> > > > as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake
> > > > their
> > > > packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your
> > > > orphans. If
> > > > it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> > > > non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping
> > > > with
> > > > that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement
> > > > of quite a
> > > > few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with
> > > > Modularity.
> > > > That's not excellent.
> > > 
> > > Dominik, that is totally ugly reply to Mikolaj! Whole Java RPM
> > > community
> > (note not only Fedora but Mageia and etc. too) relied on his work
> > to keep
> > hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of packages rpm installable. And
> > he has
> > done that for years without ever complaining! Even more he is one
> > of the
> > most helpful maintainers whenever someone faces an issue. Respect
> > should be
> > shown when deserved, blaming like that causes nothing but ill
> > feelings.
> > > Everyone should remember that this is *COMMUNITY* project and
> > > if/when
> > someone needs something they should be ready to jump in and do the
> > work -
> > whether taking packages or helping infra guys or whatever but no
> > one owes
> > others anything.
> > > P.S. As Eclipse stack maintainers we are directly hit by this and
> > already working towards turning it into module as we don't have the
> > manpower to take over the maintainership of pristine rpms that
> > Mikolaj
> > maintains. Whoever things that's easy job is welcome to try it out!
> > 
> > This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum
> > up:
> > * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> > didn't know how to ask for help
> > * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to
> > force
> > modularization
> > * This caused everyone dependent on those packages to freak
> > * And here we are in the bad ending...
> > 
> > We could have avoided the bad ending if at any point there was an
> > official call for help to increase Java SIG manpower. There wasn't.
> > We
> > could have avoided this if there was a discussion before the
> > orphaning. There wasn't.
> > 
> > We could have avoided the bad ending if people dependent on Java
> > packages were given the opportunity to help. As you say, this is a
> > community distro. That goes both ways. But that didn't happen.
> > 
> 
> Hmm,
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/java-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/MQMRQVENBLDRS67WLNQ7EOCMSDI5WIET/
> seems that people had a lot of time to act and get involved.

Unfortunately not everyone who happens to maintain a java package is in
the java SIG and reading the mails there so I think this mail should
have been sent at least to fedora-devel too, maybe even announce since
it is touching so many packages (dependencies).

I used to have one java package inherited from inactive maintainer then
one more and now comes third. I have them because I want to be able to
use and update my application in Fedora. I really do not care if they
will be built in Fedora or Arbitrary branching.

I see that Mikolaj already did a lot of work of moving his packages to
the modules, so a mail with simple instructions "this is a list of
things that I did for my packages and if you depend on them, do it
also", would save many maintainers as me hours of searching the sparse
modularity documentation.

If there are no such steps, I will jump for the packages that I need,
but if the Java in Fedora future should be modular, lets do that. But
remember: We do not know how.

Regards,
-- 
Jakub Jelen
Software Engineer
Security Technologies
Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 8:35 AM Mikolaj Izdebski  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:36 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
> > * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> > didn't know how to ask for help
>
> You did not know that, but the situation in Java SIG is well known to
> Java SIG members. Statistics speak for themselves.
>

I'm not a Java SIG member, so how would I know?

> For example, the packager who owns the most of Java packages (point of
> contacts for 480 Java packages) made his last commit in February 2017.
> The second maintainer (PoC for 94 Java packages) had last commit in
> 2015. The fourth (PoC of 55 packages) - last commit in March 2017. And
> so on.
>
> Situation on mailing list is not much better. Less than 20 mail
> threads in each of years 2018 and 2017. Compare with more than 150
> threads in year 2013.
>
> The last Java SIG IRC meeting took place in February 2013.
>
> > * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
> > modularization
>
> I did not orphan that many packages. I orphaned about 250 packages only.
>

Sorry, you're right, it affects nearly that many though.

> It is not too late for anything. Orphaned packages can still be
> adopted. That's the whole point of this thread.
>
> > We could have avoided the bad ending if at any point there was an
> > official call for help to increase Java SIG manpower. There wasn't. We
> > could have avoided this if there was a discussion before the
> > orphaning. There wasn't.
>
> We don't have any official process for calling for help. Other distros
> (at least Debian) have it, but not Fedora.
>

The reason Debian has one is because people generally don't know how
to work with each other there. That said, if we need a process for
this for some people to be more comfortable, then that probably should
be requested from FESCo.

> Discussion requires more than one participating party. I started a
> thread on java-devel list where I explained the situation and my plans
> in detail. There was no reply on the list, not a single message. I
> only had one or two private conversations about this problem.
>
> > We could have avoided the bad ending if people dependent on Java
> > packages were given the opportunity to help. As you say, this is a
> > community distro. That goes both ways. But that didn't happen.
>
> IMHO I've been very patient. I've given the community a lot of
> opportunity to help. I never refused any help. I was and I am still
> working with new contributors that want to become packagers.
>

At the risk of overwhelming myself with yet another SIG (I'm in
Python, Go, and Rust already!), I'm willing to help as a SIG member if
that's what it takes to prevent this. I don't know much about Java
packaging (I have only a single Java based package), though.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:36 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
> * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> didn't know how to ask for help

You did not know that, but the situation in Java SIG is well known to
Java SIG members. Statistics speak for themselves.

For example, the packager who owns the most of Java packages (point of
contacts for 480 Java packages) made his last commit in February 2017.
The second maintainer (PoC for 94 Java packages) had last commit in
2015. The fourth (PoC of 55 packages) - last commit in March 2017. And
so on.

Situation on mailing list is not much better. Less than 20 mail
threads in each of years 2018 and 2017. Compare with more than 150
threads in year 2013.

The last Java SIG IRC meeting took place in February 2013.

> * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
> modularization

I did not orphan that many packages. I orphaned about 250 packages only.

It is not too late for anything. Orphaned packages can still be
adopted. That's the whole point of this thread.

> We could have avoided the bad ending if at any point there was an
> official call for help to increase Java SIG manpower. There wasn't. We
> could have avoided this if there was a discussion before the
> orphaning. There wasn't.

We don't have any official process for calling for help. Other distros
(at least Debian) have it, but not Fedora.

Discussion requires more than one participating party. I started a
thread on java-devel list where I explained the situation and my plans
in detail. There was no reply on the list, not a single message. I
only had one or two private conversations about this problem.

> We could have avoided the bad ending if people dependent on Java
> packages were given the opportunity to help. As you say, this is a
> community distro. That goes both ways. But that didn't happen.

IMHO I've been very patient. I've given the community a lot of
opportunity to help. I never refused any help. I was and I am still
working with new contributors that want to become packagers.

--
Mikolaj
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Aleksandar Kurtakov]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:36 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:29 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen 
> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module
> or
> >> > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> >> >
> >> > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> >> > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> >> > removal from distribution.
> >>
> >> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> >> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> >> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
> >> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> >> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> >> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> >> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> >> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
> >> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> >> That's not excellent.
> >
> >
> > Dominik, that is totally ugly reply to Mikolaj! Whole Java RPM community
> (note not only Fedora but Mageia and etc. too) relied on his work to keep
> hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of packages rpm installable. And he has
> done that for years without ever complaining! Even more he is one of the
> most helpful maintainers whenever someone faces an issue. Respect should be
> shown when deserved, blaming like that causes nothing but ill feelings.
> > Everyone should remember that this is *COMMUNITY* project and if/when
> someone needs something they should be ready to jump in and do the work -
> whether taking packages or helping infra guys or whatever but no one owes
> others anything.
> >
> > P.S. As Eclipse stack maintainers we are directly hit by this and
> already working towards turning it into module as we don't have the
> manpower to take over the maintainership of pristine rpms that Mikolaj
> maintains. Whoever things that's easy job is welcome to try it out!
> >
>
> This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
> * No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
> didn't know how to ask for help
> * Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
> modularization
> * This caused everyone dependent on those packages to freak
> * And here we are in the bad ending...
>
> We could have avoided the bad ending if at any point there was an
> official call for help to increase Java SIG manpower. There wasn't. We
> could have avoided this if there was a discussion before the
> orphaning. There wasn't.
>
> We could have avoided the bad ending if people dependent on Java
> packages were given the opportunity to help. As you say, this is a
> community distro. That goes both ways. But that didn't happen.
>

Hmm,
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/java-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/MQMRQVENBLDRS67WLNQ7EOCMSDI5WIET/
seems that people had a lot of time to act and get involved.


>
> So here we are, in the bad ending.
>
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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-- 
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:29 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski 
>  wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
>> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
>> > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
>> >
>> > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
>> > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
>> > removal from distribution.
>>
>> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
>> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
>> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
>> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
>> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
>> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
>> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
>> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
>> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
>> That's not excellent.
>
>
> Dominik, that is totally ugly reply to Mikolaj! Whole Java RPM community 
> (note not only Fedora but Mageia and etc. too) relied on his work to keep 
> hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of packages rpm installable. And he has 
> done that for years without ever complaining! Even more he is one of the most 
> helpful maintainers whenever someone faces an issue. Respect should be shown 
> when deserved, blaming like that causes nothing but ill feelings.
> Everyone should remember that this is *COMMUNITY* project and if/when someone 
> needs something they should be ready to jump in and do the work - whether 
> taking packages or helping infra guys or whatever but no one owes others 
> anything.
>
> P.S. As Eclipse stack maintainers we are directly hit by this and already 
> working towards turning it into module as we don't have the manpower to take 
> over the maintainership of pristine rpms that Mikolaj maintains. Whoever 
> things that's easy job is welcome to try it out!
>

This whole process was handled in the worst possible way. To sum up:
* No one knew Java SIG was having manpower issues because Mikolaj
didn't know how to ask for help
* Now it's too late because he orphaned nearly 1700 packages to force
modularization
* This caused everyone dependent on those packages to freak
* And here we are in the bad ending...

We could have avoided the bad ending if at any point there was an
official call for help to increase Java SIG manpower. There wasn't. We
could have avoided this if there was a discussion before the
orphaning. There wasn't.

We could have avoided the bad ending if people dependent on Java
packages were given the opportunity to help. As you say, this is a
community distro. That goes both ways. But that didn't happen.

So here we are, in the bad ending.



--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Aleksandar Kurtakov]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:17 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
domi...@greysector.net> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> > > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> >
> > Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> > modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> > removal from distribution.
>
> Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
> their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
> maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
> as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
> packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
> it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
> non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
> that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
> few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
> That's not excellent.
>

Dominik, that is totally ugly reply to Mikolaj! Whole Java RPM community
(note not only Fedora but Mageia and etc. too) relied on his work to keep
hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of packages rpm installable. And he has
done that for years without ever complaining! Even more he is one of the
most helpful maintainers whenever someone faces an issue. Respect should be
shown when deserved, blaming like that causes nothing but ill feelings.
Everyone should remember that this is *COMMUNITY* project and if/when
someone needs something they should be ready to jump in and do the work -
whether taking packages or helping infra guys or whatever but no one owes
others anything.

P.S. As Eclipse stack maintainers we are directly hit by this and already
working towards turning it into module as we don't have the manpower to
take over the maintainership of pristine rpms that Mikolaj maintains.
Whoever things that's easy job is welcome to try it out!


>
> Regards,
> Dominik
> --
> Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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-- 
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 at 12:02, Mikolaj Izdebski wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
> >
> > Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> > we will really remove all these package from Fedora?
> 
> Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
> modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
> removal from distribution.

Maybe, but it will cause the removal of other packages that depend on
their regular (non-modular) builds. You are forcing the hands of their
maintainers before the infrastructure to make modular packages available
as build dependencies to regular packages is in place to remake their
packages into modules, let them be retired or pick up your orphans. If
it were ready, your moving these packages to modules would be a
non-event for everyone concerned except you. Instead of helping with
that (or just waiting), you are about to cause the retirement of quite a
few packages whose maintainers want nothing to do with Modularity.
That's not excellent.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Mikolaj Izdebski]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM Jakub Jelen  wrote:
>
> Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
> we will really remove all these package from Fedora?

Most of Java packages listed in this thread are already packaged as
modules. Their retirement in rawhide won't directly cause their
removal from distribution.

> I am really not interested in maintaining a whole java frameworks
> stack, but some guidance (not these weekly emails) from java
> maintainers team that took this decision would be appreciated.

Can you elaborate on what kind of guidance do you expect?

There is no "Java maintainers team" in Fedora. Java packages are
maintained by individual packagers. Theoretically there exists a Java
SIG, but its activity is limited to a couple of emails per year, with
significant part of them talking about orphaning or retiring packages.

--
Mikolaj Izdebski
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miro Hrončok]

On 12. 03. 19 11:48, Jakub Jelen wrote:

Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
we will really remove all these package from Fedora?


You can build Java apps as modules, yes.
If we remove the mentioned packages from rawhide, it will be the only way to 
build Java packages.
No, there is not yet supported way to build "normal" packages with modular 
buildrequires.
Yes, I'm really going to retire those packages on rawhide if nobody picks them 
or if we don't agree on an exception (such as, wait X extra weeks before the 
problem is solved).



I am really not interested in maintaining a whole java frameworks
stack, but some guidance (not these weekly emails) from java
maintainers team that took this decision would be appreciated.


I'd appreciate it as well.

--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Jakub Jelen]

Is there already a way to package the java application as a module or
we will really remove all these package from Fedora?

I am really not interested in maintaining a whole java frameworks
stack, but some guidance (not these weekly emails) from java
maintainers team that took this decision would be appreciated.

Regards,
Jakub

On Tue, 2019-03-12 at 11:38 +0100, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> The following packages are orphaned and will be retired when they
> are orphaned for six weeks, unless someone adopts them. If you know
> for sure
> that the package should be retired, please do so now with a proper
> reason:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life
> 
> Note: If you received this mail directly you (co)maintain one of the
> affected
> packages or a package that depends on one. Please adopt the affected
> package or
> retire your depending package to avoid broken dependencies, otherwise
> your
> package will be retired when the affected package gets retired.
> 
> Grep the list for your FAS name, follow the transitive deps:
> https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans-2019-03-11.txt
> 
> Request package ownership via releng ticket: 
> https://pagure.io/releng/issues

...
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Orphaned packages to be retired (Java packages in 3 weeks)

[Miro Hrončok]

The following packages are orphaned and will be retired when they
are orphaned for six weeks, unless someone adopts them. If you know for sure
that the package should be retired, please do so now with a proper reason:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

Note: If you received this mail directly you (co)maintain one of the affected
packages or a package that depends on one. Please adopt the affected package or
retire your depending package to avoid broken dependencies, otherwise your
package will be retired when the affected package gets retired.

Grep the list for your FAS name, follow the transitive deps:
https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans-2019-03-11.txt

Request package ownership via releng ticket: https://pagure.io/releng/issues

Package  (co)maintainers   Status Change

OSGi-bundle-ant-task  orphan   5 weeks ago
SimplyHTMLmizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
aether-connector-okhttp   galileo, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
ant-contrib   davidcl, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
antlr3dchen, lef, mizdebsk,4 weeks ago
  mjakubicek, orphan, walters
aopalliance   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-commons-beanutils  fnasser, mizdebsk, orphan,   4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-collectionsjcapik, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-commons-collections4   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-commons-compress   mizdebsk, mkoncek, orphan,   4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-configuration  fnasser, mizdebsk, orphan,   4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-csvlef, mizdebsk, orphan, spike 4 weeks ago
apache-commons-discovery  lkundrak, mizdebsk, orphan,  4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-el fnasser, mizdebsk, orphan,   4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-fileupload jerboaa, mizdebsk, mmraka,   4 weeks ago
  orphan, spike
apache-commons-jexl   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-commons-jxpath fnasser, mizdebsk, orphan,   4 weeks ago
  spike
apache-commons-netmizdebsk, orphan, spike  4 weeks ago
apache-ivymizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-james-project  lef, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
apache-logging-parent mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-mime4j lef, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
apache-parent mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-ratmizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apache-resource-bundles   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
apiguardian   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
aqute-bnd jcapik, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
args4jjcapik, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
atinject  kdaniel, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
avalon-framework  jerboaa, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
avalon-logkit jerboaa, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
base64coder   jcapik, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
batik jvanek, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
bcel  mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
bea-stax  jcapik, mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
beust-jcommander  jcapik, jvanek, mizdebsk,4 weeks ago
  orphan
blobbyorphan   5 weeks ago
bsf   choeger, mizdebsk, orphan4 weeks ago
bsh   mizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
c3p0  dchen, lef, orphan   4 weeks ago
cal10nmizdebsk, orphan 4 weeks ago
catkinorphan, rmattes, robotics-sig,   7 weeks ago
  thofmann
checkstyledbhole, greghellings, lef,   4 weeks ago
  mizdebsk, nsantos, orphan,
  rmyers
clang5.0  orphan, tstellar 5 weeks ago
clang6.0  orph