RE: Bodhi front page after login

[John Florian]

Ditto!  That seems like a much simpler solution overall.

--
John Florian


> -Original Message-
> From: Petr Spacek [mailto:pspa...@redhat.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 03:48
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
> 
> On 11.12.2015 01:34, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:57:55PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:39:16 +
> >> John Florian <john.flor...@dart.biz> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> From: Michael Schwendt [mailto:mschwe...@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 14:49
> >>>> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test
> >>>> updates. Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first
> >>>> notification.  Bug reporters read the mail, try to apply the
> >>>> update, but it is not available for download. It has not been
> >>>> pushed, and even when the second notification tells it has been
> >>>> pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.
> >>>
> >>> This gets me all the time.  Then I simply forget to test the update
> >>> unless it's something I need badly.  Perhaps these two messages in BZ
> >>> should indicate that the update will be available when it reaches the
> >>> mirrors and a 3rd message could indicate when that has happened
> >>> through the use of some mirror probing.  Such a 3rd message should be
> >>> carefully worded to indicate that the package has started reaching
> >>> *some* mirrors and that most should have it within another day.
> >>
> >> How many is some though? And if those happen to not be ones you are
> >> hitting you wouldn't see it then either.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we could get a dnf plugin thats advised in bugs for testers
> >> that checks enabled mirrors, then master mirrors, then koij for a
> >> specific update that someone wants to test? The downsides would be if
> >> everyone just decided to enable it, or if it's only in koji it possibly
> >> wouldn't be signed yet.
> >
> > What about scrapping the existing bugzilla message, and instead posting
> > the direct link to koji download the package:
> >
> > """To test the update now run:
> >   dnf upgrade https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to.rpm
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-another.rpm
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-yet-another.rpm
> >
> > After that go to https://bodhi.fp.o/update-/ to leave karma.
> > """
> 
> I like this idea!
> 
> > dnf will skip packages that are not already installed with 'upgrade'.
> > Since this would be only run manually, and the dependent packages
> > would be downloaded from mirrors, this shouldn't cause too much load
> > on koji servers. The advantage would be that the message would be
> > actionable and feedback from the bug reporters would be as fast as
> > possible.
> 
> --
> Petr Spacek  @  Red Hat
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:34:08 +
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek  wrote:

> What about scrapping the existing bugzilla message, and instead
> posting the direct link to koji download the package:
> 
> """To test the update now run:
>   dnf upgrade https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to.rpm
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-another.rpm
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-yet-another.rpm
> 
> After that go to https://bodhi.fp.o/update-/ to leave karma.
> """

Well, would need to give the path to the signed package once it's
signed, but once it goes to updates-testing it would be. 

> dnf will skip packages that are not already installed with 'upgrade'.
> Since this would be only run manually, and the dependent packages
> would be downloaded from mirrors, this shouldn't cause too much load
> on koji servers. The advantage would be that the message would be
> actionable and feedback from the bug reporters would be as fast as
> possible.

Sure, this is just making more clear what a number of testers do now
anyhow, so I think it's a good idea. 

Can you file a bodhi ticket on it?

kevin


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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:48:08AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> Sure, this is just making more clear what a number of testers do now
> anyhow, so I think it's a good idea. 
> 
> Can you file a bodhi ticket on it?

https://fedorahosted.org/bodhi/ticket/791

Zbyszek
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Petr Spacek]

On 11.12.2015 01:34, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:57:55PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:39:16 +
>> John Florian <john.flor...@dart.biz> wrote:
>>
>>>> From: Michael Schwendt [mailto:mschwe...@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 14:49
>>>> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:  
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test
>>>> updates. Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first
>>>> notification.  Bug reporters read the mail, try to apply the
>>>> update, but it is not available for download. It has not been
>>>> pushed, and even when the second notification tells it has been
>>>> pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.  
>>>
>>> This gets me all the time.  Then I simply forget to test the update
>>> unless it's something I need badly.  Perhaps these two messages in BZ
>>> should indicate that the update will be available when it reaches the
>>> mirrors and a 3rd message could indicate when that has happened
>>> through the use of some mirror probing.  Such a 3rd message should be
>>> carefully worded to indicate that the package has started reaching
>>> *some* mirrors and that most should have it within another day.
>>
>> How many is some though? And if those happen to not be ones you are
>> hitting you wouldn't see it then either. 
>>
>> Perhaps we could get a dnf plugin thats advised in bugs for testers
>> that checks enabled mirrors, then master mirrors, then koij for a
>> specific update that someone wants to test? The downsides would be if
>> everyone just decided to enable it, or if it's only in koji it possibly
>> wouldn't be signed yet. 
> 
> What about scrapping the existing bugzilla message, and instead posting
> the direct link to koji download the package:
> 
> """To test the update now run:
>   dnf upgrade https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to.rpm 
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-another.rpm 
> https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-yet-another.rpm
> 
> After that go to https://bodhi.fp.o/update-/ to leave karma.
> """

I like this idea!

> dnf will skip packages that are not already installed with 'upgrade'.
> Since this would be only run manually, and the dependent packages
> would be downloaded from mirrors, this shouldn't cause too much load
> on koji servers. The advantage would be that the message would be
> actionable and feedback from the bug reporters would be as fast as
> possible.

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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:39:16 +
John Florian <john.flor...@dart.biz> wrote:

> > From: Michael Schwendt [mailto:mschwe...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 14:49
> > To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
> > 
> > On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:  
> 
> 
> > As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test
> > updates. Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first
> > notification.  Bug reporters read the mail, try to apply the
> > update, but it is not available for download. It has not been
> > pushed, and even when the second notification tells it has been
> > pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.  
> 
> This gets me all the time.  Then I simply forget to test the update
> unless it's something I need badly.  Perhaps these two messages in BZ
> should indicate that the update will be available when it reaches the
> mirrors and a 3rd message could indicate when that has happened
> through the use of some mirror probing.  Such a 3rd message should be
> carefully worded to indicate that the package has started reaching
> *some* mirrors and that most should have it within another day.

How many is some though? And if those happen to not be ones you are
hitting you wouldn't see it then either. 

Perhaps we could get a dnf plugin thats advised in bugs for testers
that checks enabled mirrors, then master mirrors, then koij for a
specific update that someone wants to test? The downsides would be if
everyone just decided to enable it, or if it's only in koji it possibly
wouldn't be signed yet. 

kevin


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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:57:55PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:39:16 +
> John Florian <john.flor...@dart.biz> wrote:
> 
> > > From: Michael Schwendt [mailto:mschwe...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 14:49
> > > To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:  
> > 
> > 
> > > As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test
> > > updates. Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first
> > > notification.  Bug reporters read the mail, try to apply the
> > > update, but it is not available for download. It has not been
> > > pushed, and even when the second notification tells it has been
> > > pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.  
> > 
> > This gets me all the time.  Then I simply forget to test the update
> > unless it's something I need badly.  Perhaps these two messages in BZ
> > should indicate that the update will be available when it reaches the
> > mirrors and a 3rd message could indicate when that has happened
> > through the use of some mirror probing.  Such a 3rd message should be
> > carefully worded to indicate that the package has started reaching
> > *some* mirrors and that most should have it within another day.
> 
> How many is some though? And if those happen to not be ones you are
> hitting you wouldn't see it then either. 
> 
> Perhaps we could get a dnf plugin thats advised in bugs for testers
> that checks enabled mirrors, then master mirrors, then koij for a
> specific update that someone wants to test? The downsides would be if
> everyone just decided to enable it, or if it's only in koji it possibly
> wouldn't be signed yet. 

What about scrapping the existing bugzilla message, and instead posting
the direct link to koji download the package:

"""To test the update now run:
  dnf upgrade https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to.rpm 
https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-another.rpm 
https://koji.fp.o/update-/path-to-yet-another.rpm

After that go to https://bodhi.fp.o/update-/ to leave karma.
"""

dnf will skip packages that are not already installed with 'upgrade'.
Since this would be only run manually, and the dependent packages
would be downloaded from mirrors, this shouldn't cause too much load
on koji servers. The advantage would be that the message would be
actionable and feedback from the bug reporters would be as fast as
possible.

Zbyszek
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RE: Bodhi front page after login

[John Florian]

> From: Michael Schwendt [mailto:mschwe...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 14:49
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login
> 
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:


> As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test updates.
> Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first notification.  Bug
> reporters read the mail, try to apply the update, but it is not available
> for download. It has not been pushed, and even when the second
> notification tells it has been pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.


This gets me all the time.  Then I simply forget to test the update unless it's 
something I need badly.  Perhaps these two messages in BZ should indicate that 
the update will be available when it reaches the mirrors and a 3rd message 
could indicate when that has happened through the use of some mirror probing.  
Such a 3rd message should be carefully worded to indicate that the package has 
started reaching *some* mirrors and that most should have it within another day.

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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Michael Schwendt]

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:20:40 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:

> why can't you not just set a bookmark in the time you write 5 mails?

I've adjusted my bookmarks more than 18 hours ago already.

That doesn't make the bodhi welcome page any better, though.
The left column is a flood of uninteresting messages, IMO.

> i could argue the same way why i have to make a dozen of selections in 
> the RH bugtracker to submit a Fedora bug or just klick on the 
> bookmark-toolbar with 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora

Well, I still prefer the

  http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/SOURCERPMNAME 

pages as a more versatile entry-point.
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Reindl Harald]

Am 07.12.2015 um 14:05 schrieb Michael Schwendt:

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:53:26 +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:


You can find all your updates under the 'profile' tab. You could even
set a bookmark to this page.



I can hardly see what has my "profile" in common with my updates. They
should be shown on the  welcome screen.


It's not the only web site where a person's public activity can be viewed
on the person's public profile page. That way you can look for a person's
updates, for example. I could understand extra features like that.

However, that's still no reason for the login welcome page to not list the
person's own updates or to explicitly highlight those that wait for action.
To say that "other folks find the overall status more interesting" is a poor
excuse for the page not being customisable


you clearly underestimate the work making a web-application 
customizeable in a way making everybody happy!


why can't you not just set a bookmark in the time you write 5 mails?

i could argue the same way why i have to make a dozen of selections in 
the RH bugtracker to submit a Fedora bug or just klick on the 
bookmark-toolbar with 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora





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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:44:42 +0100
Michael Schwendt  wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:20:40 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> 
> > why can't you not just set a bookmark in the time you write 5
> > mails?  
> 
> I've adjusted my bookmarks more than 18 hours ago already.
> 
> That doesn't make the bodhi welcome page any better, though.
> The left column is a flood of uninteresting messages, IMO.

Perhaps file a RFE ticket asking for a different behavior on the front
page for logged in users?

kevin


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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Josef Stribny]

> I can hardly see what has my "profile" in common with my updates. They
should be shown on the  welcome screen.

I agree completely. My biggest complain about new Bodhi so far.

It's really difficult to navigate and the link should show appropriate
cursor (now it shows cursor for editing text instead the one for clicking).

Josef

- Original Message -
From: "Vít Ondruch" <vondr...@redhat.com>
To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 11:53:26 AM
Subject: Re: Bodhi front page after login


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Dne 6.12.2015 v 20:42 Kevin Fenzi napsal(a):
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100
> Reindl Harald <h.rei...@thelounge.net> wrote:
>
>> Am 06.12.2015 um 20:06 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
>>> When I log in at  https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/  the new web ui
>>> greets me with a huge wall of uninteresting statistics, such as
>>>
>>>   * the activity of other update submitters,
>>>   * this week's top testers
>>>   * latest updates in need of testing
>>>
>>> Why doesn't it greet me with my own updates anymore?
>
> Because other folks find the overall status more interesting?
>
> You can find all your updates under the 'profile' tab. You could even
> set a bookmark to this page.
>

I can hardly see what has my "profile" in common with my updates. They
should be shown on the  welcome screen.


Vít
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Vít Ondruch]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Dne 6.12.2015 v 20:42 Kevin Fenzi napsal(a):
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100
> Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>> Am 06.12.2015 um 20:06 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
>>> When I log in at  https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/  the new web ui
>>> greets me with a huge wall of uninteresting statistics, such as
>>>
>>>   * the activity of other update submitters,
>>>   * this week's top testers
>>>   * latest updates in need of testing
>>>
>>> Why doesn't it greet me with my own updates anymore?
>
> Because other folks find the overall status more interesting?
>
> You can find all your updates under the 'profile' tab. You could even
> set a bookmark to this page.
>

I can hardly see what has my "profile" in common with my updates. They
should be shown on the  welcome screen.


Vít
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Michael Schwendt]

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:53:26 +0100, Vít Ondruch wrote:

> > You can find all your updates under the 'profile' tab. You could even
> > set a bookmark to this page.
> >  
> 
> I can hardly see what has my "profile" in common with my updates. They
> should be shown on the  welcome screen.

It's not the only web site where a person's public activity can be viewed
on the person's public profile page. That way you can look for a person's
updates, for example. I could understand extra features like that.

However, that's still no reason for the login welcome page to not list the
person's own updates or to explicitly highlight those that wait for action.
To say that "other folks find the overall status more interesting" is a poor
excuse for the page not being customisable.
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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100
Reindl Harald  wrote:

> Am 06.12.2015 um 20:06 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
> > When I log in at  https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/  the new web ui
> > greets me with a huge wall of uninteresting statistics, such as
> >
> >   * the activity of other update submitters,
> >   * this week's top testers
> >   * latest updates in need of testing
> >
> > Why doesn't it greet me with my own updates anymore?

Because other folks find the overall status more interesting?

You can find all your updates under the 'profile' tab. You could even
set a bookmark to this page.

> > Some have been four months old and haven't received any testing.
> > Perhaps that also means I should retire those packages as well,
> > if there is not even a single user to give feedback on them  
> 
> "if there is not even a single user to give feedback on them" is a
> jerk reaction - the majority of users don't have updates-testing
> enabled and just wait for stable updates

Also people who do have updates-testing enabled could well not provide
any positive feedback and only -1 things that they notice are wrong. 

kevin

 



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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Reindl Harald]

Am 06.12.2015 um 20:06 schrieb Michael Schwendt:

When I log in at  https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/  the new web ui
greets me with a huge wall of uninteresting statistics, such as

  * the activity of other update submitters,
  * this week's top testers
  * latest updates in need of testing

Why doesn't it greet me with my own updates anymore?

Some have been four months old and haven't received any testing.
Perhaps that also means I should retire those packages as well,
if there is not even a single user to give feedback on them


"if there is not even a single user to give feedback on them" is a jerk 
reaction - the majority of users don't have updates-testing enabled and 
just wait for stable updates


taht said from someone who is most of the time in the top 5 testers as 
long nobody breaks fedora-easy-karma




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Re: Bodhi front page after login

[Michael Schwendt]

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:17:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:

> "if there is not even a single user to give feedback on them" is a jerk 
> reaction - the majority of users don't have updates-testing enabled and 
> just wait for stable updates

That only proves that the updates release process is flawed. The karma based
system only works for packages where enough testers spend points to reach the
pos/neg karma threshold.

If nobody gives feedback on a test update:

 - This could mean that none of the (few?) testers has evaluated the test
   update.

 - This could also mean that no tester knows _how to test_ the update.
   Or nobody cares? Nobody asks either? The bug reporter is still affected,
   bug has worked around the bug? => Doesn't make the maintainer happy.

 - And it could also mean that the test update is fine, provided that it
   got installed and used on testers' machines without the testers being
   aware of it.

It is _not_ safe to assume, however, that an untested update is fine.
It has happened before that changes in dependencies caused simple rebuilds
to break badly.

As far as I know, bodhi posts to bugzilla tickets about test updates.
Unfortunately, it does that too early with a first notification.  Bug
reporters read the mail, try to apply the update, but it is not available
for download. It has not been pushed, and even when the second
notification tells it has been pushed, it has not arrived on mirrors.

For the case of 0 karma after months, where is the option to request an
automatic push to stable based on a minimum number of days rather than
a karma threshold?

Else updates-testing is just some "punishment" for maintainers of packages
with no active testers.

> taht said from someone who is most of the time in the top 5 testers as 
> long nobody breaks fedora-easy-karma

Fine, fine. Still, if a maintainer sets NEEDINFO in bugzilla and doesn't
receive any response by a bug reporter, it's too easy to forget a ticket
completely, especially if a test update has been released already. Nagmails
don't fix that, if the person in NEEDINFO state doesn't respond.
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