Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:09 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Mon, 2020-08-31 at 11:22 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 11:16 AM Michael Catanzaro > > wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:30 am, Chris Murphy > > > wrote: > > > > Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with > > > > zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all > > > > media. Can you double check my math? :) > > > > > > If minimization folks are OK with having it in @core, then it makes > > > sense to put it there, yes. But I have a suspicion that there might be > > > interest in avoiding that. :) > > > > > > It could alternatively go separately into @standard and > > > @workstation-product. > > > > It already is. As far as I'm aware, the only thing that pulls it into > > install images is @core. > > https://github.com/weldr/lorax/blob/master/share/templates.d/99-generic/runtime-install.tmpl You'd think by now I'd know there are many ways to do one thing in Fedora. -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, 2020-08-31 at 11:22 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 11:16 AM Michael Catanzaro > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:30 am, Chris Murphy > > wrote: > > > Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with > > > zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all > > > media. Can you double check my math? :) > > > > If minimization folks are OK with having it in @core, then it makes > > sense to put it there, yes. But I have a suspicion that there might be > > interest in avoiding that. :) > > > > It could alternatively go separately into @standard and > > @workstation-product. > > It already is. As far as I'm aware, the only thing that pulls it into > install images is @core. https://github.com/weldr/lorax/blob/master/share/templates.d/99-generic/runtime-install.tmpl -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 11:16 AM Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:30 am, Chris Murphy > wrote: > > Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with > > zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all > > media. Can you double check my math? :) > > If minimization folks are OK with having it in @core, then it makes > sense to put it there, yes. But I have a suspicion that there might be > interest in avoiding that. :) > > It could alternatively go separately into @standard and > @workstation-product. Beta freeze exception is approved, but I expect everyone will defer to minimization folks. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1874094#c3 -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 11:16 AM Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:30 am, Chris Murphy > wrote: > > Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with > > zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all > > media. Can you double check my math? :) > > If minimization folks are OK with having it in @core, then it makes > sense to put it there, yes. But I have a suspicion that there might be > interest in avoiding that. :) > > It could alternatively go separately into @standard and > @workstation-product. It already is. As far as I'm aware, the only thing that pulls it into install images is @core. -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:30 am, Chris Murphy wrote: Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all media. Can you double check my math? :) If minimization folks are OK with having it in @core, then it makes sense to put it there, yes. But I have a suspicion that there might be interest in avoiding that. :) It could alternatively go separately into @standard and @workstation-product. Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:34 PM Tomáš Popela wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:24 AM Neal Gompa wrote: >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 8:15 PM Chris Murphy wrote: >> > >> > Fedora-Silverblue-ostree-x86_64-33-20200830.n.0.iso does not have nano >> > on the install media itself. Is it intentional? >> > >> >> It's supposed to be there, but I don't know how Silverblue is >> "defined" so it would be pulled in. I thought it'd get it from the >> comps groups... > > > It should be there :/ : > > https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config/blob/f33/f/fedora-common-ostree-pkgs.yaml#_139 Just to restate, I'm referring to the booted ISO environment itself. I just tried Everything netinstall, and it's not there either. Which means boot.iso doesn't have it. And boot.iso is the basis for all netinstalls and DVDs that are not live, and I'm pretty sure Silverblue is a DVD variant. Looks at comps, I see vim-minimal is in core group. I'm betting that's probably why it's pulled into boot.iso. And I think nano-default-editor should be added to core group in comps to cause it and nano to be pulled into the ISOs. Almost no one needs an editor in this environment, but I ran into it while testing. If someone boots a netinstall or dvd to rescue an installation, maybe they'd like to use nano (even out of newly formed habit :) ) to edit grub config or fstab. Michael I'm pretty sure this is the same thing that I ran into with zram-generator-defaults and had to add it to core to pull it into all media. Can you double check my math? :) -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:24 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 8:15 PM Chris Murphy > wrote: > > > > Fedora-Silverblue-ostree-x86_64-33-20200830.n.0.iso does not have nano > > on the install media itself. Is it intentional? > > > > It's supposed to be there, but I don't know how Silverblue is > "defined" so it would be pulled in. I thought it'd get it from the > comps groups... > It should be there :/ : https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config/blob/f33/f/fedora-common-ostree-pkgs.yaml#_139 ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 8:15 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > Fedora-Silverblue-ostree-x86_64-33-20200830.n.0.iso does not have nano > on the install media itself. Is it intentional? > It's supposed to be there, but I don't know how Silverblue is "defined" so it would be pulled in. I thought it'd get it from the comps groups... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Fedora-Silverblue-ostree-x86_64-33-20200830.n.0.iso does not have nano on the install media itself. Is it intentional? -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 12:49 pm, Samuel Sieb wrote: That's good to know for the change proposal then. I never use the Workstation install. I net install either with a kickstart or selecting the options I want, so that would explain why I always end up with nano installed. I don't think so... nano is already installed by default regardless of what exactly you are installing (it's in both @standard and @workstation-product). It's just not *used* by default. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 7/7/20 12:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 11:26 am, Samuel Sieb wrote: Why do you think it's gone? It's in the "standard" group, so I think it should be installed on anything other than base minimal. I find that it's installed on everything. Warning: @standard is not included at all in Workstation That's good to know for the change proposal then. I never use the Workstation install. I net install either with a kickstart or selecting the options I want, so that would explain why I always end up with nano installed. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 11:26 am, Samuel Sieb wrote: Why do you think it's gone? It's in the "standard" group, so I think it should be installed on anything other than base minimal. I find that it's installed on everything. Warning: @standard is not included at all in Workstation ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 7 July 2020 20:26:52 CEST, Samuel Sieb wrote: >On 7/7/20 7:56 AM, Michal Schorm wrote: >> What I miss is the presence of nano in the default installations and images. >> I strongly believe it was there just a few Fedora releases back, but >> now, it's gone. > >Why do you think it's gone? It's in the "standard" group, so I think it >should be installed on anything other than base minimal. I find that >it's installed on everything. Yeah I make sure via configuration management that nano and Emacs aren't installed on any of my systems. I have 3 kids and don't want them to be led astray. M >___ >devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >Fedora Code of Conduct: >https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >List Archives: >https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 7/7/20 7:56 AM, Michal Schorm wrote: What I miss is the presence of nano in the default installations and images. I strongly believe it was there just a few Fedora releases back, but now, it's gone. Why do you think it's gone? It's in the "standard" group, so I think it should be installed on anything other than base minimal. I find that it's installed on everything. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
+1 for nano. What I miss is the presence of nano in the default installations and images. I strongly believe it was there just a few Fedora releases back, but now, it's gone. I would really simplify - or atleast make more friendly - fast file editing / configuration on fresh systems. This might not be what this discussions is about, but I feel that it would be nice to have nano part of the default images / installations before we would start talking about making it default editor. (Assuming vi won't disappear) -- Michal Schorm Software Engineer Core Services - Databases Team Red Hat ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 07/07/20 14:24 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Ben Cotton wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault == Summary == Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. == Owner == * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org +1, it makes a lot of sense to default to a usable editor. The only vi command I know is :q! that gets me the heck out of there. Does this mean we can stop having things depend on vim-minimal? I don't think so. POSIX requires some commands to use vi when EDITOR is not set, so unless you modify bash (and other shells) to prevent EDITOR being unset, you need vi for a functioning POSIX system. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Ben Cotton wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > == Summary == > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > == Owner == > * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] > * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org +1, it makes a lot of sense to default to a usable editor. The only vi command I know is :q! that gets me the heck out of there. Does this mean we can stop having things depend on vim-minimal? Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 3 July 2020 21:54:10 CEST, Adam Williamson wrote: >On Fri, 2020-07-03 at 21:35 +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: >> >> On 3 July 2020 21:30:26 CEST, Adam Williamson >> wrote: >> > On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 13:18 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: >> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault >> > > >> > > == Summary == >> > > >> > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that >> > > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. >> > > >> > > == Owner == >> > > * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] >> > > * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org >> > >> > Hey, randomly found another thing you'll need to do as part of this >> > change - drop this patch: >> > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/awesome/blob/master/f/awesome-4.0-use-vi-instead-of-nano.patch >> >> Isn't that awesome wm? >> Do we think that new users will even know it exists? >> It also will only use vi if $EDITOR isn't set. >> Am I completely missing the joke here? > >Oh, sorry, meant to send it to Chris only. it was mostly just a fun >note that I found this thing in a completely random package I was >looking at for other reasons... Phew, I was thinking my grasp on reality was slipping and/or you were on drugs :D ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, 2020-07-03 at 21:35 +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: > > On 3 July 2020 21:30:26 CEST, Adam Williamson > wrote: > > On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 13:18 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > > > > > == Summary == > > > > > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > > > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > > > > > == Owner == > > > * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] > > > * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org > > > > Hey, randomly found another thing you'll need to do as part of this > > change - drop this patch: > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/awesome/blob/master/f/awesome-4.0-use-vi-instead-of-nano.patch > > Isn't that awesome wm? > Do we think that new users will even know it exists? > It also will only use vi if $EDITOR isn't set. > Am I completely missing the joke here? Oh, sorry, meant to send it to Chris only. it was mostly just a fun note that I found this thing in a completely random package I was looking at for other reasons... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 3 July 2020 21:30:26 CEST, Adam Williamson wrote: >On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 13:18 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault >> >> == Summary == >> >> Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that >> doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. >> >> == Owner == >> * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] >> * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org > >Hey, randomly found another thing you'll need to do as part of this >change - drop this patch: >https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/awesome/blob/master/f/awesome-4.0-use-vi-instead-of-nano.patch Isn't that awesome wm? Do we think that new users will even know it exists? It also will only use vi if $EDITOR isn't set. Am I completely missing the joke here? M ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 13:18 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > == Summary == > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > == Owner == > * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] > * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org Hey, randomly found another thing you'll need to do as part of this change - drop this patch: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/awesome/blob/master/f/awesome-4.0-use-vi-instead-of-nano.patch -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:18 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek < zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote: > > So all those people are happy with vi? IMHO an argument for changing > > this would be that a lot of people are already changing EDITOR to nano, > > so it makes sense to make it a default. If this is actually not the > > case it is not very convincing to change this. > > I think people may not be happy with something, but if it's not trivial to > change > (and knowing that EDITOR may be set in bash configuration, but the > variable has to be exported, and then you need to reload the shell config > because > the change does not take effect immediately is not trivial), they will > continue to use the default as long as they are able to get by. > Or they just try Fedora and immediately mark it as a distro not for them. Because when they do "git commit" in Ubuntu, it opens up a reasonably user friendly editor (nano). When they do it in Fedora, it opens up a screen they don't even know how to exit (vi). If I were a new user to Linux, it would be clear to me which distribution is for me and which one is definitely not. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 11:08:01AM +0200, Till Maas wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 09:01:21AM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 05:52:07PM +0200, Till Maas wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 08:16:29AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > > > > > > > While it may be worth vim making themselves better, it really doesn't > > > > change the argument. > > > > > > > > Even a friendlier vim is still going to be far to strange and > > > > confusing to somebody just looking to quickly change a setting and get > > > > on with Fedora. > > > > > > The argument in the change proposal is that users might not know what is > > > going on when they run `git commit` and vi instead of nano is opened. It > > > does not mention "quickly changing a setting". Thinking more about this, > > > if someone has to use "git commit", they have probably changed > > > something with a tool. If this is a developer, they are probably using a > > > graphical IDE or a text editor on the console (or maybe a GUI text > > > editor). > > > > > But I guess the IDEs usually have git integration, so the user > > > would then not use "git commit". > > Plenty of people use graphical editors without git integration. But > > even if the editor has integration, people will often have been taught > > or have learnt themselves to use a git from the command line and will > > continue doing that. In many ways the cli is more convenient, so if you > > once learnt that, you're unlikely to switch away. > > IT seems that the persona that is targeted by this change is changing a > lot. Initially, it was about newcomers but someone who already learned > git from the command-line does not seem to be a newcomer. In my experience, some basic familiarity with git is nowadays fairly common. Many people do some kind of data processing as students, and it may be done using python or ipython notebook or R and open source libraries. Such people will be using the terminal for this as a tool, without spending too much time on bash or shell or other basic tools that we take for granted. Another group is people who open the terminal based on some instructions on the web. "Open a terminal, run 'systemctl edit foo.service', and add '...'." So yeah, as I understand this, there is no one well defined target, but rather various heterogeneous partially overlapping groups. > > > If they already use a console editor, > > > would it be typical that they do not set the EDITOR variable? > > In my experience, people set $EDITOR very rarely. > > So all those people are happy with vi? IMHO an argument for changing > this would be that a lot of people are already changing EDITOR to nano, > so it makes sense to make it a default. If this is actually not the > case it is not very convincing to change this. I think people may not be happy with something, but if it's not trivial to change (and knowing that EDITOR may be set in bash configuration, but the variable has to be exported, and then you need to reload the shell config because the change does not take effect immediately is not trivial), they will continue to use the default as long as they are able to get by. > > > And if they are using a graphical Editor, shouldn't maybe that one be > > > defaulted to in graphical environments? > > I replied to that earlier — short summary is that having the editor pop > > outside of the terminal window is confusing. We want the default editor > > to be in-terminal and block the terminal until the edit is done. > > There can also be some text in the console that explains that the user > should look at the window for the GUI editor and the editor helper could > block the console until the edit is done. git-mergetool works just fine > with meld, for example. Also I know people using gvimdiff instead of > vimdiff. This would be a possibility. But it's rather complicated, and requires us to change the default anyway... And we'd need to do something different for ssh connections. I like the original simple proposal better. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 09:01:21AM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 05:52:07PM +0200, Till Maas wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 08:16:29AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > > > > > While it may be worth vim making themselves better, it really doesn't > > > change the argument. > > > > > > Even a friendlier vim is still going to be far to strange and > > > confusing to somebody just looking to quickly change a setting and get > > > on with Fedora. > > > > The argument in the change proposal is that users might not know what is > > going on when they run `git commit` and vi instead of nano is opened. It > > does not mention "quickly changing a setting". Thinking more about this, > > if someone has to use "git commit", they have probably changed > > something with a tool. If this is a developer, they are probably using a > > graphical IDE or a text editor on the console (or maybe a GUI text > > editor). > > > But I guess the IDEs usually have git integration, so the user > > would then not use "git commit". > Plenty of people use graphical editors without git integration. But > even if the editor has integration, people will often have been taught > or have learnt themselves to use a git from the command line and will > continue doing that. In many ways the cli is more convenient, so if you > once learnt that, you're unlikely to switch away. IT seems that the persona that is targeted by this change is changing a lot. Initially, it was about newcomers but someone who already learned git from the command-line does not seem to be a newcomer. > > If they already use a console editor, > > would it be typical that they do not set the EDITOR variable? > In my experience, people set $EDITOR very rarely. So all those people are happy with vi? IMHO an argument for changing this would be that a lot of people are already changing EDITOR to nano, so it makes sense to make it a default. If this is actually not the case it is not very convincing to change this. > > And if they are using a graphical Editor, shouldn't maybe that one be > > defaulted to in graphical environments? > I replied to that earlier — short summary is that having the editor pop > outside of the terminal window is confusing. We want the default editor > to be in-terminal and block the terminal until the edit is done. There can also be some text in the console that explains that the user should look at the window for the GUI editor and the editor helper could block the console until the edit is done. git-mergetool works just fine with meld, for example. Also I know people using gvimdiff instead of vimdiff. Thanks Till ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Neal Gompa writes: > Oh man, that takes me back! I started on DOS with the MS-DOS Editor, > then went onto the DOS port of Emacs and using DJGPP, then jumped to > Linux years later... Now *that* takes me back to the days when I wrote DJGPP ;-) And for anyone who thinks vi is hard to use, try the original ed (not edlin) on CP/M. IMHO the default editor should have the following characteristics: * arrow keys always move the cursor * insert, delete, and backspace always do what they say * ASCII keys always mean "add this character" (insert or overwrite) * Every other option should have an obvious hint on the screen, such as a menu bar or hotkey line, like: [F1] exit [F2] save [Ctrl-Z] undo [Ctrl-X] cut if it doesn't fit on one line, it's too complicated. (ed did the opposite of all those, btw ;) (nano seems to hit most of these, although it's two lines of hints and INSERT didn't do what I expected - and it wasn't obvious how to get out of the mode INSERT put me in) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 13:14, Iñaki Ucar wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 18:54, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > > On 01. 07. 20 18:33, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:28 am, Michael Catanzaro > > > wrote: > > >> I have not much opinion on whether we should use this vs. nano. > > > > > > Actually, playing with it for an extra three minutes... it's *really* > > > nice. > > > > > > I know micro is not nearly as standard or popular as nano, but... this is > > > worth > > > serious additional consideration. > > > > I love micro. The problematic part is it's rather big. > > > > nano: 670 k > > micro: 4.7 M > > > > (sizes from repoquery --info) > > To be fair, we should add ncurses-libs and file-libs as dependencies: > 330 k + 570 k = 900 k more. But yes, micro is still bigger, as its > name suggests. :) > > > BTW My keyboard bindings for micro that resemble a standard (modern) > > terminal > > session more: > > https://gist.github.com/hroncok/f7bc01080e3b72320b858c437af92151 > > That's very useful, thanks! > On a side note.. I went looking to see if someone had an editor name smaller than nano. pico was the editor that nano replaces. femto is an editor on Apple phones written in javascript atto is an editor in the Moodle web app. there is a zepto which is at https://github.com/hughbarney/zepto (and also has an atto which is emacs like) https://github.com/hughbarney/zepto#comparisons-with-other-emacs-implementations gives size estimates from 3 years ago. that leaves yocto which is a different distribution.. and nothing is defined smaller than a yocto in the end, we should just probably choose something.. we can always change our minds in 6 months to something else. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 18:54, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 01. 07. 20 18:33, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:28 am, Michael Catanzaro > > wrote: > >> I have not much opinion on whether we should use this vs. nano. > > > > Actually, playing with it for an extra three minutes... it's *really* nice. > > > > I know micro is not nearly as standard or popular as nano, but... this is > > worth > > serious additional consideration. > > I love micro. The problematic part is it's rather big. > > nano: 670 k > micro: 4.7 M > > (sizes from repoquery --info) To be fair, we should add ncurses-libs and file-libs as dependencies: 330 k + 570 k = 900 k more. But yes, micro is still bigger, as its name suggests. :) > BTW My keyboard bindings for micro that resemble a standard (modern) terminal > session more: https://gist.github.com/hroncok/f7bc01080e3b72320b858c437af92151 That's very useful, thanks! -- Iñaki Úcar ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:42 pm, Miro Hrončok wrote: I love micro. The problematic part is it's rather big. nano: 670 k micro: 4.7 M (sizes from repoquery --info) rpm -qi micro says 16007158 bytes installed... that's 15.3 MiB, compared to nano at 2.5 MiB, and vim-minimal at 1.3 MiB. I've been reminded in IRC that micro was previously considered but passed over out of concern that this would be too much for containers. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 01. 07. 20 18:28, Michael Catanzaro wrote: I notice that when I copy text it instructs me to "install xclip for external clipboard." That's not OK since xclip won't do anything in Wayland. Could be avoided by checking $DISPLAY before printing the message. See https://github.com/zyedidia/micro#linux-clipboard-support -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 01. 07. 20 18:33, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:28 am, Michael Catanzaro wrote: I have not much opinion on whether we should use this vs. nano. Actually, playing with it for an extra three minutes... it's *really* nice. I know micro is not nearly as standard or popular as nano, but... this is worth serious additional consideration. I love micro. The problematic part is it's rather big. nano: 670 k micro: 4.7 M (sizes from repoquery --info) BTW My keyboard bindings for micro that resemble a standard (modern) terminal session more: https://gist.github.com/hroncok/f7bc01080e3b72320b858c437af92151 -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:28 am, Michael Catanzaro wrote: I have not much opinion on whether we should use this vs. nano. Actually, playing with it for an extra three minutes... it's *really* nice. I know micro is not nearly as standard or popular as nano, but... this is worth serious additional consideration. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:35 am, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: 'sudo dnf install micro' ;) It seems to work nicely. I especially like the standard keyboard shortcuts. I can't figure out how to Undo in nano, but in micro I just Ctrl+Z. I have not much opinion on whether we should use this vs. nano. I notice that when I copy text it instructs me to "install xclip for external clipboard." That's not OK since xclip won't do anything in Wayland. Could be avoided by checking $DISPLAY before printing the message. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 4:55 AM Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > I might support this, but Nano is a terrible editor. It has key > bindings that are quite unlike any other program and conflict with > normal bindings that newbies might be used to (eg. ^X is cut, not exit). > > If we're going to newbies how about a more MS-DOS-ish experience, eg: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LE_(text_editor) > Oh man, that takes me back! I started on DOS with the MS-DOS Editor, then went onto the DOS port of Emacs and using DJGPP, then jumped to Linux years later... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: It has key bindings that are quite unlike any other program Well, any other program that a newcomer is nowadays reasonably likely to be familiar with. The keybindings are from the Pico text editor, and the Pine and Alpine email clients. -- Peter Oliver ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 01/07/20 09:54 +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: I might support this, but Nano is a terrible editor. It has key bindings that are quite unlike any other program and conflict with normal bindings that newbies might be used to (eg. ^X is cut, not exit). If we're going to newbies how about a more MS-DOS-ish experience, eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LE_(text_editor) https://micro-editor.github.io/ was also suggested. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 10:54:46 AM CEST Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 09:44:12AM +0200, Kamil Dudka wrote: > > > On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:16:40 PM CEST Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > > > > May I suggest another option? > > > I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a > > > discoverable > interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ > > > > > > It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. > > > > > > How does it fit in Fedora, where dynamic linking is preferred? > > > > > > > Probably bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, > > > > > > So you like it more than nano. Could you be more specific about what > > "nicer" > means to others in this context? > > > > > > > with mouse support > > > > > > nano also has mouse support. It can be enabled by --mouse. > > > Cool! Can this be included in the proposal? Can nano be made to use --mouse > by default so it doesn't have to be specified on every invocation? > Zbyszek Technically we are able to make the change in /etc/nanorc which is customized for Fedora already. But there is a reason why it is not enabled by default: The mouse handling in nano takes precedence over mouse handling in terminal, which some users (including me) rely on. Neither vim has the mouse support enabled in its default configuration. This might be better to discuss at the upstream mailing list. Using fundamentally different configuration of nano might be disturbing for users that switch between Linux distributions. Kamil ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
I might support this, but Nano is a terrible editor. It has key bindings that are quite unlike any other program and conflict with normal bindings that newbies might be used to (eg. ^X is cut, not exit). If we're going to newbies how about a more MS-DOS-ish experience, eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LE_(text_editor) Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 100 libraries supported. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 09:44:12AM +0200, Kamil Dudka wrote: > On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:16:40 PM CEST Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > May I suggest another option? > > I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a discoverable > > interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ > > > > It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. > > How does it fit in Fedora, where dynamic linking is preferred? > > > Probably bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, > > So you like it more than nano. Could you be more specific about what "nicer" > means to others in this context? > > > with mouse support > > nano also has mouse support. It can be enabled by --mouse. Cool! Can this be included in the proposal? Can nano be made to use --mouse by default so it doesn't have to be specified on every invocation? Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:16:40 PM CEST Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > May I suggest another option? > I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a discoverable > interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ > > It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. How does it fit in Fedora, where dynamic linking is preferred? > Probably bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, So you like it more than nano. Could you be more specific about what "nicer" means to others in this context? > with mouse support nano also has mouse support. It can be enabled by --mouse. > and syntax highlighting. nano also has syntax highlighting. It has been enabled by default since 2015. Kamil > Best regards, > > Robert-André ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 09:47:08PM +0200, Iñaki Ucar wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:24, Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > > > May I suggest another option? > > I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a discoverable > > interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ 'sudo dnf install micro' ;) > > It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. Probably > > bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, with mouse support and syntax > > highlighting. > > I didn't know it. I've just tried it and absolutely loved it. +1 to > this suggestion. Using this as the default editor sounds interesting. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:24, Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > May I suggest another option? > I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a discoverable > interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ > > It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. Probably > bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, with mouse support and syntax > highlighting. I didn't know it. I've just tried it and absolutely loved it. +1 to this suggestion. -- Iñaki Úcar ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:18:59 CEST Ben Cotton wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > == Summary == > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > == Owner == > * Name: [[User:chrismurphy| Chris Murphy]] > * Email: chrismur...@fedoraproject.org > > > == Detailed Description == > > Users are exposed to the default editor when they use commands that > call it. The main example here is something like git > commit. > > Fedora does not currently have a default terminal text editor, because > the $EDITOR environment variable is unset by default. But a common > scenario where users wind up in a terminal text editor is when using > 'git commit'. By default, git picks vi. You need to spend time > learning how to use it, for even basic editing tasks. This increases > the barrier to entry for those who are switching to Fedora and don't > know how to use vi. It also makes things hard for those who don't > particularly want to learn how to use vi. (These arguments would apply > just as well if git picked Vim. vi is like hard mode for Vim, with > fewer features, missing syntax highlighting, and no indication of what > mode you are in. Even Vim users may feel lost and bewildered when > using vi.) > > In contrast, Nano offers the kind of graphical text editing experience > that people are used to, and therefore doesn't require specialist > knowledge to use. It is already installed across most Fedora Editions > and Spins. This proposal will make Nano the default editor, while > continuing to install vim-minimal (which provides vi, but > not Vim). People will still be able to call vi if they > want to edit a file. It will also obviously be possible to change the > default editor to vi or Vim, for those who want it. > > Why make Nano default and vi optional, rather than the other way > round? Because Nano is the option that everyone can use. > > == Feedback == > > Pending ... > > == Benefit to Fedora == > > * Makes the default editor across all of Fedora more approachable. > * Nano is also mostly self-documenting, by displaying common keyboard > shortcuts on-screen. > * More in line with the default editor of other distributions. > > == Scope == > * Proposal owners: > ** Modify comps to include nano Fedora wide. > ** Create a new subpackage of nano, called > nano-editor. > ** nano-editor to include > /usr/lib/environment.d/10-nano.conf, which sets > $EDITOR to nano. > > With this approach, if nano is uninstalled, the > configuration will be removed with it. At the same time, installing > nano on its own won't install the conf. > > * Other developers: N/A > > * Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/9522 #9522] > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A > > * Trademark approval: N/A > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact == > > Will not apply to upgrades. > > == How To Test == > > Run export EDITOR="/usr/bin/nano". > > == User Experience == > > Users running git commit will be able to just type their > commit message, rather than having to learn about insert mode, and > they'll be able to cut and paste without having to learn special > shortcuts. > > == Dependencies == > > No additional dependencies are required. > > == Contingency Plan == > The contingency plan is to revert the change by removing the > nano-editor package. > > * Contingency deadline: probably the beta? It's an easy change to revert. > * Blocks release? If the change breaks the redirection to an editor, > it should block the release. However, this is unlikely. > * Blocks product? Potentially all. > > == Documentation == > As part of this change, it would be good to add instructions for > changing the default editor to the > [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/ quick docs]. > > > -- > Ben Cotton > He / Him / His > Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream > Red Hat > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis May I suggest another option? I provide a package for Micro, an editor written in Go with a discoverable interface. https://micro-editor.github.io/ It is compiled as a static binary of 4.6 MB with no dependency. Probably bigger than nano, but it's nicer overall, with mouse support and syntax highlighting. Best regards, Robert-André ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 05:52:07PM +0200, Till Maas wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 08:16:29AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > > > While it may be worth vim making themselves better, it really doesn't > > change the argument. > > > > Even a friendlier vim is still going to be far to strange and > > confusing to somebody just looking to quickly change a setting and get > > on with Fedora. > > The argument in the change proposal is that users might not know what is > going on when they run `git commit` and vi instead of nano is opened. It > does not mention "quickly changing a setting". Thinking more about this, > if someone has to use "git commit", they have probably changed > something with a tool. If this is a developer, they are probably using a > graphical IDE or a text editor on the console (or maybe a GUI text > editor). > But I guess the IDEs usually have git integration, so the user > would then not use "git commit". Plenty of people use graphical editors without git integration. But even if the editor has integration, people will often have been taught or have learnt themselves to use a git from the command line and will continue doing that. In many ways the cli is more convenient, so if you once learnt that, you're unlikely to switch away. > If they already use a console editor, > would it be typical that they do not set the EDITOR variable? In my experience, people set $EDITOR very rarely. > And if they are using a graphical Editor, shouldn't maybe that one be > defaulted to in graphical environments? I replied to that earlier — short summary is that having the editor pop outside of the terminal window is confusing. We want the default editor to be in-terminal and block the terminal until the edit is done. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 19:06, Neil Horman wrote: > > Right, and I acutally think thats great. You had a problem, you asked the > questions you needed answers to, and solved your problem. I personally think > the process of identifying whats bothering you, figuring out a solution (by > asking questions, getting answers and experimenting), and then implementing > your > fix is actually a pretty good user experience in and of itself (though that > may > just be me). :) And that's why actual UX people are so important. Don't say "user experience" when you mean "nerd experience". :) -- Iñaki Úcar ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:03:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 12:58 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > From this thread you can find at least two people (me and Ben > > > Rosser) > > > who definitely didn't keep using vi (my very next questions were > > > "what's an easier editor to use?" and "how do I change the default > > > editor to something else?"), and are still sufficiently frazzled by > > > the > > > experience that we still refuse to. :P > > > Right, and I acutally think thats great. You had a problem, you > > asked the > > questions you needed answers to, and solved your problem. I > > personally think > > the process of identifying whats bothering you, figuring out a > > solution (by > > asking questions, getting answers and experimenting), and then > > implementing your > > fix is actually a pretty good user experience in and of itself > > (though that may > > just be me). :) > > That is not how it felt at the time :P > > It's really the point about Unexpected Forcible Learning. If I sit down > at my computer and think "right, I'm going to learn to do X", that's > one thing. I am mentally prepared to spend some time stumbling around > working out how to do X. > > The problem with this experience is that's not how it happens. You > don't sit down and thinking "today I'm going to learn how to use vi" or > "today I'm going to learn about console text editors and the $EDITOR > variable". You were intending to do something else, and you were > suddenly sandbagged by this fracking weird thing you have no idea what > it is that got in the way of the something else you were trying to do. > > Yes, eventually you learn something, but it's not a "pretty good user > experience", it is a frustrating and annoying one. /me puts a tinfoil hat on what if... what IF ... this whole "vi by default" is a huge conspiracy by the emacs people to make new users hate vi from the earliest stages, thus providing a welcoming environment for them to swoop in and save them with promises of strange shortcuts! I knew it all along! /me completely wraps himself in tinfoil [1] [1] well, aluminium foil because it's too hard to get decent tinfoil these days, not like back in my days when it was snowing uphill both ways ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 3:27 pm, Michael Catanzaro wrote: Erm... well, no. Plan foiled? The goal of using /usr/lib/environment.d was to avoid setting more environment variables in random places in various shell scripts. But if that only works in GNOME, I guess it's not a great solution after all. Since you noticed the original proposal doesn't actually work except in GNOME, the change proposal has been modified a bit. New proposal is: nano-default-editor will include /etc/profile.d/nano.(sh|csh), which sets $EDITOR to nano ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:01 AM David Kaufmann wrote: > > Unfortunately I think this arguing is moot, as the issue seems to have > been decided already anyway. I only remember one change "proposal" to > actually being pulled back in the last year, and I'm really disappointed > about having fake discussions on devel@ whilst the decision has already > been made. It is incorrect to assume this change is a done deal. Community feedback is critical to the Changes process (and is one of the key factors behind why we replaced the Features process). To wit, five change proposals were rejected by FESCo for Fedora 32 alone: 1. https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2323#comment-624955 2. https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2291#comment-615815 3. https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2268#comment-611948 4. https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2241#comment-609153 5. https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2198#comment-587826 In addition, change proposals can be withdrawn by the owner before being submitted to FESCo, as happened last week: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VWY3HAH5GJOOBCYLB5SSFTYYJRPBQTUB/ Changes are often updated based on community feedback (which is why we recently added a section to the proposal explicitly to record some of that feedback). One example is the proposal to improve the counting in DNF. The original[1] received a lot of feedback about the privacy implications, so it was withdrawn and reworked to take that feedback into account[2]. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Changes/DNF_UUID=531449 [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DNF_Better_Counting -- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 1:48 pm, Przemek Klosowski via devel wrote: I would like to respectfully disagree---my recollection is that when there was a vigorous opposition, the proposals were changed/retracted. In this particular case, it feels to me that the responses are mostly in favor, so it may be that this proposal is going against your preference, but this is good--it's how the system is supposed to work. I am always always impressed by the discussion's high caliber and information content--I tend to learn a lot. My recollection is that proposals are being changed as a result. In this case, the implementation proposal using /usr/lib/environment.d has been pretty thoroughly rejected, so this proposal is really going to have to be modified. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/29/20 7:59 AM, David Kaufmann wrote: Unfortunately I think this arguing is moot, as the issue seems to have been decided already anyway. I only remember one change "proposal" to actually being pulled back in the last year, and I'm really disappointed about having fake discussions on devel@ whilst the decision has already been made. There are some where the Change proposal owner actually considers other options which come up in the discussion, but for a few of them there is not even an answer, and for some of them the only Change proposal owner response is "but it is the best option". I would like to respectfully disagree---my recollection is that when there was a vigorous opposition, the proposals were changed/retracted. In this particular case, it feels to me that the responses are mostly in favor, so it may be that this proposal is going against your preference, but this is good--it's how the system is supposed to work. I am always always impressed by the discussion's high caliber and information content--I tend to learn a lot. My recollection is that proposals are being changed as a result. I hope you can see it in a different light--as an opportunity to improve, not as an imposition. I am certainly glad that those proposals are in our workflow---thanks Ben, and the proposal authors! Very Respectfully p. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 08:16:29AM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote: > While it may be worth vim making themselves better, it really doesn't > change the argument. > > Even a friendlier vim is still going to be far to strange and > confusing to somebody just looking to quickly change a setting and get > on with Fedora. The argument in the change proposal is that users might not know what is going on when they run `git commit` and vi instead of nano is opened. It does not mention "quickly changing a setting". Thinking more about this, if someone has to use "git commit", they have probably changed something with a tool. If this is a developer, they are probably using a graphical IDE or a text editor on the console (or maybe a GUI text editor). But I guess the IDEs usually have git integration, so the user would then not use "git commit". If they already use a console editor, would it be typical that they do not set the EDITOR variable? And if they are using a graphical Editor, shouldn't maybe that one be defaulted to in graphical environments? Thanks Till ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 9:21 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 13:18 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > > > == Summary == > > > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > My only regret is that I have but one +1 to give to this proposal! > Here's another one. +1 ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:47:58 +0200, you wrote: >since vim addresses this when opened without a file and it is open >source, it seems to me to be a good idea to propose to adjust vim >behaviour to show the help overview when opening a file as well. For >example if there is no ~/.vimrc or some other indicator that shows the >user does not know vim, yet. While it may be worth vim making themselves better, it really doesn't change the argument. Even a friendlier vim is still going to be far to strange and confusing to somebody just looking to quickly change a setting and get on with Fedora. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 06:11:58AM -0400, Pavel Valena wrote: > TL;DR please, +1 for nano, as "trial by fire" is not a good first > experience for someone who just wants to get something done. This is not "trial by fire", it is just a different interface than people are used from notepad.exe. Vi may be not a good first experience for someone who needs to edit a file once during the whole lifetime of that os installation, but it is useful to those who have to do it lots and lots of times or even if it is just "regularly". > I don't think this should be matter of preference of current Fedora > users or developers. Instead it's all about first impressions with a > Linux distro (or second..) for fresh users. It should. I'm willing to argue that new users for Fedora try it, because they got it recommended by someone who uses *and* likes it. If you ignore the preferences of the current users you're cutting off new users before they even try it. > A developer/poweruser can later change EDITOR to something their > familiar with, on purpose. This is easy for one machine, but not if you have to maintain lots of them. That is why I'm proposing to put that into the gnome-welcome-screen that it adds EDITOR=… to the .bashrc only for that user. That way a regular user has it set, while users created via useradd/adduser, kickstart, … by more experienced users can have useful defaults for them. > Invoking vi for fresh user is like deciding for them they need to > learn vim , although they're learning how to use git f.e., > and therefore worsens the experience they'll have IMO. Well, they also have to learn that they can't copy and paste via Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v in the commandline, but that is no reason for anyone to change terminal behavior there. (lots of git tutorials mention 'git commit -m "message"' anyway, so you don't see an editor, and don't need to learn vim ) > Btw. nano is just simple by the looks, but has lots of improvements > under the hood. With options like f.e. -xAFEGHuiBPUWzw it's a > completely different editor I use for my everyday work for years > now... that is fine, but none of those options will be enabled by default if you have to work as sysadmin on a machine which isn't your primary one. For "mostly unconfigured" machines we need a default which doesn't stand in the way of fixing systems but enables working efficiently. Unfortunately I think this arguing is moot, as the issue seems to have been decided already anyway. I only remember one change "proposal" to actually being pulled back in the last year, and I'm really disappointed about having fake discussions on devel@ whilst the decision has already been made. There are some where the Change proposal owner actually considers other options which come up in the discussion, but for a few of them there is not even an answer, and for some of them the only Change proposal owner response is "but it is the best option". All the best, David signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
- Original Message - > From: "Till Maas" > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:47:58 AM > Subject: Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default > editor > > Hi, > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 06:48:56PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > Nothing in vi's default view (if launched with a file, which is what > > happens in this case) tells you you need to press 'insert' in order to > > actually edit anything. Nothing in vi's default view tells you you have > > to type the entirely cryptic sequence ":wq" to save and exit (or gives > > since vim addresses this when opened without a file and it is open > source, it seems to me to be a good idea to propose to adjust vim > behaviour to show the help overview when opening a file as well. For > example if there is no ~/.vimrc or some other indicator that shows the > user does not know vim, yet. > > Did someone discuss improving the novice user experience with the vim > developers, yet? What was the outcome? Hello, TL;DR please, +1 for nano, as "trial by fire" is not a good first experience for someone who just wants to get something done. I don't think this should be matter of preference of current Fedora users or developers. Instead it's all about first impressions with a Linux distro (or second..) for fresh users. If it's hard "on first look", some people will consider it too hard to use generally, and will rather not use it at all. Having the same default as Debian/Ubuntu would certainly help, as well as the simplicity of nano, for someone who sees commandline editor for the first time. Running a "vim guided tour", or showing some hints, wouldn't compare in this case. A developer/poweruser can later change EDITOR to something their familiar with, on purpose. Invoking vi for fresh user is like deciding for them they need to learn vim , although they're learning how to use git f.e., and therefore worsens the experience they'll have IMO. Btw. nano is just simple by the looks, but has lots of improvements under the hood. With options like f.e. -xAFEGHuiBPUWzw it's a completely different editor I use for my everyday work for years now... Regards, Pavel > > Thanks > Till ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Hi Till, I sent a question to Vim mailing list: https://groups.google.com/g/vim_dev/c/931nvz1TKyg On 6/29/20 10:47 AM, Till Maas wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 06:48:56PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> Nothing in vi's default view (if launched with a file, which is what >> happens in this case) tells you you need to press 'insert' in order to >> actually edit anything. Nothing in vi's default view tells you you have >> to type the entirely cryptic sequence ":wq" to save and exit (or gives > since vim addresses this when opened without a file and it is open > source, it seems to me to be a good idea to propose to adjust vim > behaviour to show the help overview when opening a file as well. For > example if there is no ~/.vimrc or some other indicator that shows the > user does not know vim, yet. > > Did someone discuss improving the novice user experience with the vim > developers, yet? What was the outcome? > > Thanks > Till > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- Zdenek Dohnal Software Engineer Red Hat Czech - Brno TPB-C signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Hi, On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 06:48:56PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > Nothing in vi's default view (if launched with a file, which is what > happens in this case) tells you you need to press 'insert' in order to > actually edit anything. Nothing in vi's default view tells you you have > to type the entirely cryptic sequence ":wq" to save and exit (or gives since vim addresses this when opened without a file and it is open source, it seems to me to be a good idea to propose to adjust vim behaviour to show the help overview when opening a file as well. For example if there is no ~/.vimrc or some other indicator that shows the user does not know vim, yet. Did someone discuss improving the novice user experience with the vim developers, yet? What was the outcome? Thanks Till ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 29 June 2020 04:51:40 CEST, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:32:34AM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: >> > Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72 >> See Markus Larsson's comment on this above... > >Yeah, but as Michael points out, that doesn't really apply: it takes up >literally zero additional screen space. > Yeah, looks like a slippery slope to me. Yes I'm mostly joking but these things has a tendency to grow. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Sunday, June 28, 2020 7:51:40 PM MST Matthew Miller wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:32:34AM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > > > > Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72 > > > > See Markus Larsson's comment on this above... > > > Yeah, but as Michael points out, that doesn't really apply: it takes up > literally zero additional screen space. The bottom row is normally just as large as the file name, or is even just blank, in the case of streams, and doesn't distract from the file/stream content. Adding that text is unnecessary clutter. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Sorry for duplicate, it was already answered. On 6/29/20 7:10 AM, Zdenek Dohnal wrote: > Spoiler alert :) > > It already does. > > On 6/26/20 3:41 PM, Jaroslav Skarvada wrote: >> - Original Message - >>> Adam Williamson < adamw...@fedoraproject.org > 于 2020年6月26日周五 上午9:32写道： >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 08:44 +0800, Qiyu Yan wrote: What about to provide a prompt to the user telling them the difference between editors? For example, when a new user to fedora first invokes git commit without $EDITOR set, a program named fedora-default-editor comes up and asks: Which editor do you like? User can do his or hers choice and the choice will be remembered by setting $EDITOR in his or hers ~/.bashrc The fedora-default-editor can be a small script that shows user all the difference and set $EDITOR for the user. >>> It's a nice idea, but the problem with things like this is they >>> *always* introduce bugs, and often wind up being unmaintained, because >>> keeping them working is kind of a thankless task. >>> >>> IMHO it's better to keep things simple and just pick a default. And the >>> default should definitely be nano. :D >>> Then I will +1 for this proposal. Yes, this certainly will make Fedora >>> easier >>> use for beginners. And for those who would like to use vi as default, we >>> should make this as easy as possible. >>> >>> I has been asked "how to exit this hell?" multiple times by my new-to-Linux >>> friends, that time I would always suggest them to set nano as default. Vim >>> is great though, it is not for beginners. >>> >> Why not just patch vim-minimal to show the hint on the CTRL+C? >> Problem solved :) >> >> Jaroslav >> ___ >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >> Fedora Code of Conduct: >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >> List Archives: >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- Zdenek Dohnal Software Engineer Red Hat Czech - Brno TPB-C signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Spoiler alert :) It already does. On 6/26/20 3:41 PM, Jaroslav Skarvada wrote: > > - Original Message - >> >> Adam Williamson < adamw...@fedoraproject.org > 于 2020年6月26日周五 上午9:32写道： >> >> >> On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 08:44 +0800, Qiyu Yan wrote: >>> What about to provide a prompt to the user telling them the difference >>> between editors? >>> For example, when a new user to fedora first invokes git commit >>> without $EDITOR set, a program named fedora-default-editor comes up >>> and asks: Which editor do you like? >>> User can do his or hers choice and the choice will be remembered by >>> setting $EDITOR in his or hers ~/.bashrc >>> >>> The fedora-default-editor can be a small script that shows user all >>> the difference and set $EDITOR for the user. >> It's a nice idea, but the problem with things like this is they >> *always* introduce bugs, and often wind up being unmaintained, because >> keeping them working is kind of a thankless task. >> >> IMHO it's better to keep things simple and just pick a default. And the >> default should definitely be nano. :D >> Then I will +1 for this proposal. Yes, this certainly will make Fedora easier >> use for beginners. And for those who would like to use vi as default, we >> should make this as easy as possible. >> >> I has been asked "how to exit this hell?" multiple times by my new-to-Linux >> friends, that time I would always suggest them to set nano as default. Vim >> is great though, it is not for beginners. >> > Why not just patch vim-minimal to show the hint on the CTRL+C? > Problem solved :) > > Jaroslav > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org -- Zdenek Dohnal Software Engineer Red Hat Czech - Brno TPB-C signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:32:34AM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > > Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72 > See Markus Larsson's comment on this above... Yeah, but as Michael points out, that doesn't really apply: it takes up literally zero additional screen space. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 13:23:17 -0400, you wrote: >Heres a thought that I hadn't considered before though, and it might be useful. >Apple at one point (and still may), shiped iphones without the itunes (or some >common) app on it, >and they did so intentionally, because they knew it was an app that people >wanted, and it forced them into a sort of 'training mission' in which they had >to use the app store on their phone to find and install the itunes app. It >gave >end users, after their initial disgruntledness, the skills to install new apps >on their phone, and explore how some of the system worked. I can't comment if that was ever true, but it certainly hasn't been the case for a very long time - it wasn't an issue on the first iPad. >Would that be a possibility here? I've upgraded my fedora workstation so many >times, I'm not sure what our firstboot screens look like anymore, but would it >be worthwhile to present users with some text, or a guide wizard, to point out >files like their ~/.bashrc file with some commented text that shows clearly >what >some useful environment variables are, and how they might set them to customize >their experience? Its not very 'just press the button to do something you may >or may not understand', but it targets new users as part of firstboot, and >introduces them in a somewhat friendly way to how things look under the covers, >so they can make adjustments as their needs dictate. At which point they realize choosing Fedora was a mistake, and they go to Ubuntu like all their friends suggested in the first place. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/28/20 10:03 AM, John M. Harris Jr wrote: On Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:06:01 PM MST Igor Raits wrote: On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:58 -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: I definitely agree on taking out "rhgb quiet", that's annoying as all hell, not knowing what's going on during the boot process. Why does the user need to know what's happening when system boots? So that they know what goes wrong, when something goes wrong. I don't know what users you have, but 95% of the people I've setup with Fedora would be confused or disturbed by the kernel spew during boot and wouldn't have any idea what to do with it if something went wrong. The other 5% (including me) would not want it by default and would be able to enable it if necessary. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
> Fedora does not currently have a default terminal text editor, because > the $EDITOR environment variable is unset by default. But a common > scenario where users wind up in a terminal text editor is when using > 'git commit'. By default, git picks vi. You need to spend time > learning how to use it, for even basic editing tasks. It sounds reasonable to me to set a default value for $EDITOR. But I'm not all that sure if the default editor should be set to "nano". It's true that programmers who use these terminal editors can easily change $EDITOR and often do when settings system for the first-time. There are still Emacs users for example who do this. And it's also true that first-time users suddenly being face-to-face with Vim isn't going to be a pleasant end-user experience. I love to use Vim and it is my $EDITOR value. I also don't think it's all that complicated... for example to do basic editing you only need to know that Vim has two modes, "normal" and "interactive". In normal mode user gives commands by hitting colon and typing command. :w saves a file, :q exits Vim. Commands can be combined so for example :wq saves and quits existing buffer. Hitting key switches to "interactive" mode aka. editing mode and key returns user back to "normal" mode. There you go, basics of using Vim explained in 10 seconds. It's true that where Vim stumbles is the first-time user experience and intuitiveness. Concept of modes isn't well known these days of because of GUIs. Vim also gives few visual glues as to what press and what to do after start-up. Knowing that user has to type colon ":" before any commands is absolutely required and it isn't all that well explained in the Vim initial screen. It basically says "type :help, :quit" and that's about it. But for example the given case where the git will default to Vim when doing a commit, it's likely user won't even see that little help. It's true that users can press key to get help but a lot of times users don't know this since use of for help has declined. Nano isn't necessarily easier editor by any means but at least it shows users some visual glues. But do users know that ^ character signifies "hold-ctrl-key-and-press-x-key"? It's true that it can be easier to discover but I've seen first-time users of nano (and first-time users to Linux) try nano and trying to type <^> key and when that has failed tried to do +<^>+something which also leads to failure and frustration. The default terminal editor preferably should use "ctrl+s" to save and not "ctrl+o" and it should say "ctrl+s" instead of "^o". To exit terminal editor, it should say "ctrl+q" and not "^x". While it's true that this is explained if user press key in Nano... if Vim is not easy enough, then we should assume that Nano isn't easy enough which means that we're probably dealing with new users coming from Microsoft Windows and they are the kind of people who would assume these kinds of keys. And setting default $EDITOR to "nano" is to first and foremost to serve their needs and make things easier for them. Who even are the target audience of Fedora? Are there any metrics about which editors are most used in Fedora? Fedora to me has primarily been developer's distribution. And Vim has constantly been the favourite editor among programmers. It would make more sense to me to do research on editors and then pick the most common editor user base of Fedora uses. So I will definitely support setting a default value for $EDITOR. But I'd do research to see what editor Fedora users actually use and most likely would like to be the default value. Meanwhile "nano" is a decent initial value. But it most likely isn't the optimal one for the people this change intends to assist. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Friday, June 26, 2020 10:53:59 AM MST David Cantrell wrote: > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:23:17PM -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > >On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:03:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 12:58 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > >> > >> > > From this thread you can find at least two people (me and Ben > >> > > Rosser) > >> > > who definitely didn't keep using vi (my very next questions were > >> > > "what's an easier editor to use?" and "how do I change the default > >> > > editor to something else?"), and are still sufficiently frazzled by > >> > > the > >> > > experience that we still refuse to. :P > >> > >> > >> > >> > Right, and I acutally think thats great.ÃÂ You had a problem, you > >> > asked the > >> > questions you needed answers to, and solved your problem.ÃÂ I > >> > personally think > >> > the process of identifying whats bothering you, figuring out a > >> > solution (by > >> > asking questions, getting answers and experimenting), and then > >> > implementing your > >> > fix is actually a pretty good user experience in and of itself > >> > (though that may > >> > just be me). :) > >> > >> > >> > >> That is not how it felt at the time :P > >> > >> > >> > >> It's really the point about Unexpected Forcible Learning. If I sit down > >> at my computer and think "right, I'm going to learn to do X", that's > >> one thing. I am mentally prepared to spend some time stumbling around > >> working out how to do X. > >> > >> > >> > >> The problem with this experience is that's not how it happens. You > >> don't sit down and thinking "today I'm going to learn how to use vi" or > >> "today I'm going to learn about console text editors and the $EDITOR > >> variable". You were intending to do something else, and you were > >> suddenly sandbagged by this fracking weird thing you have no idea what > >> it is that got in the way of the something else you were trying to do. > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes, eventually you learn something, but it's not a "pretty good user > >> experience", it is a frustrating and annoying one. > > > > > >But thats more or less the expectation of unix and unix like systems. For > >all the porcelain and chrome we've put around it, under the covers, its > >all still a bag of parts, and the expectation is (or should be) when using > >a bag of parts, you will have to learn how several of those parts work (be > >it vi or nano when using git, or substitue your tool of choice here). You > >start with a tool, you relize it relies on another tool, so you have to > >push it down the stack and figure out the new tool as part of the overall > >process. > > > >I'll share a simmilar experience to commiserate. During this thread, I > >went to go confirm that eclipse actually used its own internal git editor > >for adding commit messages. Thought it was going to be easy. Quickly > >realized that eclipse didn't come with git integration out of the box, so > >I had to go figure out how to get git support in, then how to configure > >it, then how to interface to it. It all felt like kinda the same tool, > >because it all happened in one of a few related windows, but its really > >learning several disparate tools, and thats ok. I still don't like using > >eclipse, but not because it made me go figure out several new tools, I > >don't like it because it seems nuts to me to have an IDE with a 400M > >Resident set size to edit ascii text. :) > > > >Heres a thought that I hadn't considered before though, and it might be > >useful. Apple at one point (and still may), shiped iphones without the > >itunes (or some common) app on it, > >and they did so intentionally, because they knew it was an app that people > >wanted, and it forced them into a sort of 'training mission' in which they > >had to use the app store on their phone to find and install the itunes > >app. It gave end users, after their initial disgruntledness, the skills > >to install new apps on their phone, and explore how some of the system > >worked. > > > I'm not sure that's a good comparison. Are we trying to force train new vi > users or gain new Fedora users and developers? Fedora doesn't have a > business interest in users being forced to learn vi like Apple does with > users learning to use the App Store. > > > >Would that be a possibility here? I've upgraded my fedora workstation so > >many times, I'm not sure what our firstboot screens look like anymore, > >but would it be worthwhile to present users with some text, or a guide > >wizard, to point out files like their ~/.bashrc file with some commented > >text that shows clearly what some useful environment variables are, and > >how they might set them to customize their experience? Its not very 'just > >press the button to do something you may or may not understand', but it > >targets new users as part of firstboot, and introduces them in a somewhat > >friendly way to how things look under the covers, so they can make > >adjustments as their
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:09:31 AM MST Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:50:52PM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > > That actually works really well, and we should seriously consider > > doing it. Or at least suggesting it to upstream. > > > > It doesn't even take extra space. Only uses the bottom row that > > would otherwise be empty. > > > Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72 See Markus Larsson's comment on this above... -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 1:27:06 PM MST Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:40 pm, Ian McInerney > wrote: > > > Are you sure this will work? I just ran a test, and putting a new > > config file inside /usr/lib/environment.d only works for Gnome, and > > doesn't work for Mate, Cinnamon or SSH (tested by opening a terminal > > in the respective session and examining the environment variables). > > From what I gather in [1], systemd is not a standard way of > > interacting with the user's environment variables, and only Gnome has > > decided to use it. So this method of implementing this change seems > > to be making the default editor for Gnome be nano and not changing > > the defaults for anyone else. > > > Erm... well, no. Plan foiled? > > The goal of using /usr/lib/environment.d was to avoid setting more > environment variables in random places in various shell scripts. But if > that only works in GNOME, I guess it's not a great solution after all. Actually, that may be the perfect solution.. This way, it'd be a self contained change to the GNOME spin, and wouldn't affect the rest of Fedora. I'd be +1 on that. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 2020-06-29 03:03, John M. Harris Jr wrote: On Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:06:01 PM MST Igor Raits wrote: On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:58 -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > I definitely agree on taking out "rhgb quiet", that's annoying as all > hell, > not knowing what's going on during the boot process. Why does the user need to know what's happening when system boots? So that they know what goes wrong, when something goes wrong. +1 - I have been routinely getting rid of "rhgb quiet" for as long as it has been around - but it is become much less simple to do in recent years . . P. -- Philip Rhoades PO Box 896 Cowra NSW 2794 Australia E-mail: p...@pricom.com.au ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:50:20 AM MST John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:18:59 AM MST Ben Cotton wrote: > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > > > == Summary == > > > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. > > > As an alternative, I would like to recommend we make Emacs the default. > Emacs does not require "specialist knowledge", but is much more powerful > once you do learn how to use it properly. It's also not as hard to use as > nano. > -- > John M. Harris, Jr. Please don't take this seriously. I wrote that email to show that text editor preferences are subjective, and that different people have different ideas of "simple". -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:06:01 PM MST Igor Raits wrote: > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:58 -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > > I definitely agree on taking out "rhgb quiet", that's annoying as all > > hell, > > not knowing what's going on during the boot process. > > > Why does the user need to know what's happening when system boots? So that they know what goes wrong, when something goes wrong. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
Hello, I decided to register just so I could offer my humble take on this. First of all, I have many years of Linux experience (mostly on Debian and Gentoo), but after years without having Linux on my desktop environments (though I did use it on all servers I have managed, mostly on the Debian side of things). Seeing the currently offered options, even though I almost nil experience with RHEL/CentOS/Fedora systems, I decided to go with Fedora earlier this year (just before F32 was released). BTRFS drove me an inch away from completely removing Fedora from my system and never looking back again. I mean, it couldn't be just a file system, it seemed impossible that deeper issues within the distro weren't involved. Android emulator went literally unusable. Images that podman would build 10x times faster in lower specced servers. Turned off datacow on the folders containing the vm images/container fs's and copied them in order to get rid of the fragmentation. Things were a little better, but performance was still degrading every single day. I just threw the towel and turned off datacow entirely as a palliative, which made the system somewhat usable but also made btrfs a toothless tiger, took away all of its compelling features. All of this was on a Predator Helios 300 - 572 notebook, i7 7700, 32gb ram, dedicated Nvidia 1060, with the BTRFS system installed on a 500GB WD Blue SSD. At this point I was starting to wonder whether Fedora, Gnome or even Linux were a viable choice of this machine, it seemed my computer wasn't getting along with the system at all. Only reason I still have Fedora is that I managed to backup the data on my NVME WD Black 256GB drive, wiped it and created a new XFS partition as a last ditch effort (also mirroring the previous Swap / boot layout, but this time I had swap encryption) I mean, of course the PCI-E interface is fast than the SATA one, but the difference is barely noticeable during daily usage. And while I had BTRFS as a raw partition, XFS was on top of LVM and LUKS. My WD Blue SSD is also, fine tested it over and over again to make sure and my previous Windows installation ran there and performed just fine. Wasn't very hopeful, but after a simple rsync and simply pointing grub to the new XFS partition gave a whole new life to my system. The sizes were very similar (the BTRFS partition had about 230GB), so it can't come down to that. The difference was so absurd I couldn't believe I was actually enjoying the exact same system just because of a FS change. I really wish I could provide benchmarks to back my claim but at this point I was quite fed up and had lost a lot of productive time because of the countless hang-ups and even crashes I experienced with btrfs. Don't expect much love on this, since my opinion has been downvoted on reddit by many of those who don't want to hear bad news about btrfs. And no, I don't have any benchmarks and did not collect any logs, I'm not talking about a bug, BTRFS is defective beyond anything Fedora could do to fix it. After spending so much time fighting against my system So, deciding to come back to Linux after getting fed up with Windows, meant that I'd have to make some choices. Foremost of all for me, after choosing Fedora, was choosing a suitable filesystem. I installed it on a partition taking about half of a pretty decent WD Blue SSD. I actually expected btrfs to be one of the best aspects of my experience, was quite excited to make use of its capabilities (and I didn't even get to using RAID features, which are knowingly riddled with defects). I've never thought much of ext4 and in the past I just went with JFS for my desktop machines. I mean, my machine is pretty decent, the performance impact couldn't be that bad, even seeing the benchmarks. Turns out I was wrong. My system was pretty much unusable after some weeks. Even defragmenting and doing every kind of mount flag option optimization known to man didn't make the situation any better. Turning off CoW was the only thing that made me able to even perform simple tasks on my otherwise performant computer. With all due respect, this proposal is borderline wreckless. There is not a single benchmark out there showing BTRFS is suitable for any common workload of an average Fedora user. Anedoctal experience is even worse. I'm boarding an airplane right now and this e-mail should be quite disorganized, but I had to leave my 2cents I'm not surprised RHEL completely got rid of BTRFS and not even oracle is using it as a default for their Enterprise Linux. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/27/20 12:50 PM, John M. Harris Jr wrote: As an alternative, I would like to recommend we make Emacs the default. Emacs does not require "specialist knowledge", but is much more powerful once you do learn how to use it properly. It's also not as hard to use as nano. I used emacs for 30+ years and have it in my muscle memory but even I don't use EDITOR=emacs because 1) startup takes seconds and 2) it leaves ~ files around by default. Afer thinking about it I believe nano is better suited for quick edits. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:58 -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:38:13 PM MST Jan Kratochvil wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:21:37 +0200, Chris Adams wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure why you think end-users can't use a free OS. > > > > > > First steps of end-users is to install Chrome, Spotify and > > VirtualBox. > > So there is left no advantage of a Free OS. > > > > > > > > > I've run with SELinux enabled for years, rarely if ever causes > > > problems > > > for typical stuff. > > > > > > Sooner or later something does not work. I do not want to open this > > can of > > worms whether SELinux yes or not, it may be a good idea but IMNSHO > > it is > > not for a development machine. > > I definitely agree on taking out "rhgb quiet", that's annoying as all > hell, > not knowing what's going on during the boot process. Why does the user need to know what's happening when system boots? > -- > John M. Harris, Jr. > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org - -- Igor Raits -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEcwgJ58gsbV5f5dMcEV1auJxcHh4FAl73pqkACgkQEV1auJxc Hh5AUw/+I3C4LBRAV/JYGGg5TOVn/s4fNgl0ynNRcDDwOGeXJJsuA05o/gU1CWd2 WpnRYMWhMuGjunKs5/ZDxbLENlHsDgnkWrb82Lq9/bZnZwclqCTpWhJFMqDP0zQT FGjhvEDE5XyWoGanYjgI84MNoiTaBRzwaZnncUkfREx3n8RsF8sZWc2hdNynmJVR iZ2O+rsXzL5RfFDQwimyEFRjwlJC0J1baqxm+8XBXRf3/Y4X/YahyO2x6oDY8irO fYbbC1LOlaB9FsrC94uJB9BU8kY/cpZHA8D+CyNYakrCpqiciFwu1gnaqgj5mmtU JOtPbYOxyMb91JTfiyQnTP3MPMoSOQraMO7/VVefGS8LeW3r2dteH163gOSiNhCM bO7R1fusa4FZOUcKp9lbnv61GzbNZ6X1P63lVPLgd61YqcUUDwDdx2rMim+46j11 UxKXGLqlrQbW62EhQhhn3DILfMm37oj66GghE2Drln8l1PZ0LHH8v8I8WCwdJGZ3 hePvbDV7DMmMEt5g/HD1r/qaQSr30f4ZeIWGHFoH3sMepHGWr8uOBRDmccHoqyiE /uo4yPXiNOilcrTnb7db5aY3c0Ghxyh1LyQbqGC8BCUD79NBUo0BlTWgk2W5l19j uxrYusQH8GGv4i7Q1WUvVnAEjdMsgKaa8UwTlXnGEkvIoHU7ZX4= =c/Lb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Friday, June 26, 2020 5:50:01 AM MST Markus Larsson wrote: > I like to think that I am part of everyone and I would love if we could > deliver smart solutions that doesn't needlessly change default behaviour > under the guise "advanced users will know how to configure this". We're getting to the point where there are so many things that "advanced users will know how to configure", it's absolutely absurd. You spend the first week with a fresh install customizing all the little things that used to be defaults, back when defaults were sane. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Friday, June 26, 2020 1:19:45 AM MST Jan Kratochvil wrote: > It does not as I have shown. Moreover it takes so much time to do dnf > command completion and one always has to ctrl-c it anyway. That is because > dnf should use cached results updated by cron and do not contact network > during interactive cache queries. If one really wants most fresh data there > is --refresh for that. This used to be the case, and then something broke it a few releases ago. 3-4 releases ago, you even had to explicitly install sqlite to get dnf completion to work, but that has been fixed as far as I'm aware. For me, dnf completion went from taking a few seconds to several minutes. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Friday, June 26, 2020 12:51:32 AM MST Jan Kratochvil wrote: > I feel blind when I do not see what is happening and I feel scared it will > lock up again and I will be unable to debug it. Besides that it is much > more pretty to see what is happening and it makes the waiting time > shorter. > All pros and no con. Yes, it is a personal preference. Yes, I understand > most of computer users prefer "rhgb quiet". I have some doubts most of > _Fedora_ users really prefer it. There are lots of Fedora users, not just developers or "power users". Not many of them have any interest or knowledge of kernel or dracut debugging, especially now that systemd is part of the boot process. Those users who know how to debug that also know how to disable those cmdline options. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:38:13 PM MST Jan Kratochvil wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:21:37 +0200, Chris Adams wrote: > > > I'm not sure why you think end-users can't use a free OS. > > > First steps of end-users is to install Chrome, Spotify and VirtualBox. > So there is left no advantage of a Free OS. > > > > > I've run with SELinux enabled for years, rarely if ever causes problems > > for typical stuff. > > > Sooner or later something does not work. I do not want to open this can of > worms whether SELinux yes or not, it may be a good idea but IMNSHO it is > not for a development machine. I definitely agree on taking out "rhgb quiet", that's annoying as all hell, not knowing what's going on during the boot process. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:18:59 AM MST Ben Cotton wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault > > == Summary == > > Let's make Fedora more approachable, by having a default editor that > doesn't require specialist knowledge to use. As an alternative, I would like to recommend we make Emacs the default. Emacs does not require "specialist knowledge", but is much more powerful once you do learn how to use it properly. It's also not as hard to use as nano. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
The ship on POSIX mandating vi (and defining it's behavior) sailed years ago. On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 4:11 PM Orcan Ogetbil wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 10:55, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > > > > > I came here with peace. Let's face it. It's always between the two. I > > > respect vim and I learned quite some things in vim. But I'm an emacs > > > user and I find the original decision between vim and emacs for 'git > > > commit' unfair. > > > > Git doesn't use vim by default, it uses vi, and it's got nothing to do > with fairness. vi is specified by the POSIX standard, emacs is not. Using > vi as the default when EDITOR is not set is consistent with POSIX utilities > like crontab, using emacs is not. > > > > https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html > > > > But this isn't about your preference (emacs) or my preference (vim), or > what POSIX can portably assume is present. Fedora can assume nano is > present, because Fedora controls that and already makes it present. > > Thank you again for the reference. vi and vim are the same thing for > most people. > > I think it's best if POSIX stays away from taking sides on a deep > religious dilemma. > > Make it neutral (e.g. nano). Both sides get hurt the same amount. > > Best, > Orcan > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:38:40PM -0400, Ben Rosser wrote: > The -t/--tempfile switch for nano (and pico) does exactly this: > https://linux.die.net/man/1/nano Yeah, I've had EDITOR='nano -t -r 72' set in my .profile for as long as I can remember. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email) @pizza:shaftnet dot org (matrix) High Springs, FL speachy (freenode) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/26/20 10:33 AM, Neil Horman wrote: If I google how to quit vi, I see a full 10 pages of the answer to the question documented in detail The fact that people have to google their way out of such a mundane circumstance is in my opinion enough to give this proposal a: +1 As background, I am well familiar with vi and I rarely change the EDITOR to emacs, even though it's my own preference. There are two reasons: * vi starts instantly and emacs doesn't, * emacs leaves the *~ files around, and most contexts in which 'vi' is being used is simple enough that my knowledge of vi is sufficient and I don't need the backup files. Nano comes out favorably in both cases, so even though I have never used it before I think it's a better choice than both vi and emacs. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 10:55, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > > > I came here with peace. Let's face it. It's always between the two. I > > respect vim and I learned quite some things in vim. But I'm an emacs > > user and I find the original decision between vim and emacs for 'git > > commit' unfair. > > Git doesn't use vim by default, it uses vi, and it's got nothing to do with > fairness. vi is specified by the POSIX standard, emacs is not. Using vi as > the default when EDITOR is not set is consistent with POSIX utilities like > crontab, using emacs is not. > > https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html > > But this isn't about your preference (emacs) or my preference (vim), or what > POSIX can portably assume is present. Fedora can assume nano is present, > because Fedora controls that and already makes it present. Thank you again for the reference. vi and vim are the same thing for most people. I think it's best if POSIX stays away from taking sides on a deep religious dilemma. Make it neutral (e.g. nano). Both sides get hurt the same amount. Best, Orcan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
I wrote: > Zdenek Dohnal wrote: >> CCing Git maintainer to see whether it can be implemented or not. I somehow forgot to say that I'm just one of several maintainers for the git package. :) I've Cc'd the git-maintainers alias to include the other folks. -- Todd signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 26 June 2020 20:08:53 CEST, Robert Relyea wrote: >On 6/25/20 12:58 PM, Jonathan Wakely wrote: >> >> >> Anyway, I find it hard to believe that serious developers are >> unable/unwilling to set their own choice of EDITOR. A systemwide >> default EDITOR=nano shouldn't cause them any real difficulty. > > >I second that. I'm the guy who gets annoyed at non-vi editors because I >tend to fill files in them with hjkl's due to muscle memory of 40 years >of vi usage. You'll pull vi out of my cold dead hands. I'm still quite >capable of setting $EDITOR in my own startup files. Pretty much anyone >that has figured out and prefers vi (or emacs or whatever) knows how to >set $EDITOR. That's not really the point. The point is that yet again more or less fictional future users needs comes before the needs of current actual users. As time goes by it seems the list of configuration changes needed to make a system usable (subjectively yes) grows. What was default was changed and since doing it the easy way only annoyed current users the easy way was chosen. I'm getting tired of this but I guess it's time to accept that I'm just one of those grumpy old neckbeard now. Markus >___ >devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >Fedora Code of Conduct: >https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >List Archives: >https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 07:04:51PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > On 26/06/20 13:23 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > Heres a thought that I hadn't considered before though, and it might be > > useful. > > Apple at one point (and still may), shiped iphones without the itunes (or > > some > > common) app on it, > > and they did so intentionally, because they knew it was an app that people > > wanted, and it forced them into a sort of 'training mission' in which they > > had > > to use the app store on their phone to find and install the itunes app. It > > gave > > end users, after their initial disgruntledness, the skills to install new > > apps > > on their phone, and explore how some of the system worked. > > That's not about learning useful life skills, it's about forcing them > to visit the money-making machine. > ulterior motives asside, the goal was still to implicitly teach the end users how to use a central tool in their environment. > I don't think "I had to learn vi and it never did me any harm, new > users should have to as well" is really the right approach for the > distro. > I'm not sure how you got that out of my comment above, but it certainly wasn't my intent. All I was trying to say was, orthogonal to the choice of default editor, part of the frustration here seems to be not only understanding how vi works but how to go about changing it if it doesn't work for you (as suggested by the large number of searches for vi help, and the relatively non-existant number of searches for "how do I change my default editor in linux". I was suggesting that some sort of introductory guide during install might mitigate that. > Shut up and learn vi, it's for your own good. And eat your vegetables > or you won't get dessert. Ok, that a bit over the line. Please don't twist my words. > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:50:52PM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > That actually works really well, and we should seriously consider > doing it. Or at least suggesting it to upstream. > > It doesn't even take extra space. Only uses the bottom row that > would otherwise be empty. Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72 -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/25/20 12:58 PM, Jonathan Wakely wrote: Anyway, I find it hard to believe that serious developers are unable/unwilling to set their own choice of EDITOR. A systemwide default EDITOR=nano shouldn't cause them any real difficulty. I second that. I'm the guy who gets annoyed at non-vi editors because I tend to fill files in them with hjkl's due to muscle memory of 40 years of vi usage. You'll pull vi out of my cold dead hands. I'm still quite capable of setting $EDITOR in my own startup files. Pretty much anyone that has figured out and prefers vi (or emacs or whatever) knows how to set $EDITOR. bob ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 26/06/20 13:23 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: Heres a thought that I hadn't considered before though, and it might be useful. Apple at one point (and still may), shiped iphones without the itunes (or some common) app on it, and they did so intentionally, because they knew it was an app that people wanted, and it forced them into a sort of 'training mission' in which they had to use the app store on their phone to find and install the itunes app. It gave end users, after their initial disgruntledness, the skills to install new apps on their phone, and explore how some of the system worked. That's not about learning useful life skills, it's about forcing them to visit the money-making machine. I don't think "I had to learn vi and it never did me any harm, new users should have to as well" is really the right approach for the distro. Shut up and learn vi, it's for your own good. And eat your vegetables or you won't get dessert. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 26/06/20 19:15 +0200, David Kaufmann wrote: On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote: "In the last year, How to exit the Vim editor has made up about .005% of question traffic: that is, one out of every 20,000 visits to Stack Overflow questions. That means during peak traffic hours on weekdays, there are about 80 people per hour that need help getting out of Vim." Please don't just simply take that number as "number of people trying to exit vim" One of those threads on stackoverflow was a highly popular meme and was featured in quite many webpages. I myself probably visited that thread about 5 to 10 times despite being a vim user for about 10 years now, just because I was provided with the link to that specific thread or because I wanted to show someone that thread. Agreed. I've never tried to use regular expressions to parse XML* but I've visited https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/981959 dozens of times. * ok, maybe once or twice. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:15 am, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 12:39 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: Also, have we asked the question, what default editor are other distros setting? I've honestly never looked. I believe no major distro currently sets $EDITOR, so we would be the first. Debian/Ubuntu/Mint use https://salsa.debian.org/debian/sensible-utils for this. I checked Ubuntu yesterday and they build git with DEFAULT_EDITOR=editor, which chooses nano. (They also use DEFAULT_PAGER=pager, which I guess is how you would allow configuring 'most'.) An earlier version of the change proposal involved packaging up these Debain tools, but I suggested that setting $EDITOR would be a whole lot easier. On the other hand, if we were to package sensible-utils, it's likely other independent distros would follow, and we would turn it into a cross-distro standard. So it's worth considering. Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:23:17PM -0400, Neil Horman wrote: On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:03:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 12:58 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > From this thread you can find at least two people (me and Ben > > Rosser) > > who definitely didn't keep using vi (my very next questions were > > "what's an easier editor to use?" and "how do I change the default > > editor to something else?"), and are still sufficiently frazzled by > > the > > experience that we still refuse to. :P > Right, and I acutally think thats great.ÃÂ You had a problem, you > asked the > questions you needed answers to, and solved your problem.ÃÂ I > personally think > the process of identifying whats bothering you, figuring out a > solution (by > asking questions, getting answers and experimenting), and then > implementing your > fix is actually a pretty good user experience in and of itself > (though that may > just be me). :) That is not how it felt at the time :P It's really the point about Unexpected Forcible Learning. If I sit down at my computer and think "right, I'm going to learn to do X", that's one thing. I am mentally prepared to spend some time stumbling around working out how to do X. The problem with this experience is that's not how it happens. You don't sit down and thinking "today I'm going to learn how to use vi" or "today I'm going to learn about console text editors and the $EDITOR variable". You were intending to do something else, and you were suddenly sandbagged by this fracking weird thing you have no idea what it is that got in the way of the something else you were trying to do. Yes, eventually you learn something, but it's not a "pretty good user experience", it is a frustrating and annoying one. But thats more or less the expectation of unix and unix like systems. For all the porcelain and chrome we've put around it, under the covers, its all still a bag of parts, and the expectation is (or should be) when using a bag of parts, you will have to learn how several of those parts work (be it vi or nano when using git, or substitue your tool of choice here). You start with a tool, you relize it relies on another tool, so you have to push it down the stack and figure out the new tool as part of the overall process. I'll share a simmilar experience to commiserate. During this thread, I went to go confirm that eclipse actually used its own internal git editor for adding commit messages. Thought it was going to be easy. Quickly realized that eclipse didn't come with git integration out of the box, so I had to go figure out how to get git support in, then how to configure it, then how to interface to it. It all felt like kinda the same tool, because it all happened in one of a few related windows, but its really learning several disparate tools, and thats ok. I still don't like using eclipse, but not because it made me go figure out several new tools, I don't like it because it seems nuts to me to have an IDE with a 400M Resident set size to edit ascii text. :) Heres a thought that I hadn't considered before though, and it might be useful. Apple at one point (and still may), shiped iphones without the itunes (or some common) app on it, and they did so intentionally, because they knew it was an app that people wanted, and it forced them into a sort of 'training mission' in which they had to use the app store on their phone to find and install the itunes app. It gave end users, after their initial disgruntledness, the skills to install new apps on their phone, and explore how some of the system worked. I'm not sure that's a good comparison. Are we trying to force train new vi users or gain new Fedora users and developers? Fedora doesn't have a business interest in users being forced to learn vi like Apple does with users learning to use the App Store. Would that be a possibility here? I've upgraded my fedora workstation so many times, I'm not sure what our firstboot screens look like anymore, but would it be worthwhile to present users with some text, or a guide wizard, to point out files like their ~/.bashrc file with some commented text that shows clearly what some useful environment variables are, and how they might set them to customize their experience? Its not very 'just press the button to do something you may or may not understand', but it targets new users as part of firstboot, and introduces them in a somewhat friendly way to how things look under the covers, so they can make adjustments as their needs dictate. Even if they don't do it immediately, they will have a reference to something they can recall if they find later that their choice of editor is not something they are comfortable with. Sounds like something suitable for gnome-initial-setup. I think /etc/motd with that info would be useful on the non-workstation releases. Slackware always installed a "welcome" email to the root user with similar info. OpenBSD has 'man afterboot'.
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 1:00 pm, Matthew Miller wrote: ... that would actually be really easy to do, since a patch isn't necessary. export LESS='-MPM?f%f .?n?m(%T %i of %m) ..?ltlines %lt-%lb?L/%L. :byte %bB?s/%s. .?e(END) ?x- Next\: %x.:?pB%pB\%..%t (h for help or q to quit)' But let's not get ahead of ourselves. :) That actually works really well, and we should seriously consider doing it. Or at least suggesting it to upstream. It doesn't even take extra space. Only uses the bottom row that would otherwise be empty. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:43:10AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 13:37 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > > > > Mint's default seems to be nano, though like openSUSE, it is doing this > > > some way other than by setting $EDITOR. > > > > > Mints just a derivative of openSuse, isn't it? It would make sense that > > this > > followed. > > I thought it was a derivative of Debian and/or Ubuntu? Wikipedia has it > in the 'Ubuntu derivatives' category. But anyhow, it doesn't behave > like openSUSE, it doesn't have the weird mix - for all three tests I > used (visudo, git, systemctl edit) I got nano. > > > > So, it's a bit of a mixed bag, overall. But Ubuntu and Mint both using > > > nano is pretty significant. > > > > > Yeah, but significant in what way? We have two fairly popular distributions > > using nano, but over 1,000,000 people trying to figure out how to exit vi on > > stackexchange. Is the user base for other distros defaulting to vi just > > that > > much bigger? > > Dunno. Maybe if Debian and Ubuntu defaulted to vi there'd be 5,000,000 > people? :D Possibly :) I guess the real conclusion we can imply here is that new users just use whatever the default is. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net > http://www.happyassassin.net > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On 6/25/20 1:54 PM, Randy Barlow wrote: I would like to counter propose that we make ed the default editor :P Just in case it wasn't clear, I was joking here. I support nano as a default. Let's make Fedora easier for new users, especially those who are new to the command line and/or Linux. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 1:45 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 13:37 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > > > > Mint's default seems to be nano, though like openSUSE, it is doing this > > > some way other than by setting $EDITOR. > > > > > Mints just a derivative of openSuse, isn't it? It would make sense that > > this > > followed. > > I thought it was a derivative of Debian and/or Ubuntu? Wikipedia has it > in the 'Ubuntu derivatives' category. But anyhow, it doesn't behave > like openSUSE, it doesn't have the weird mix - for all three tests I > used (visudo, git, systemctl edit) I got nano. > Linux Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu, thus is a member of the Debian family. > > > So, it's a bit of a mixed bag, overall. But Ubuntu and Mint both using > > > nano is pretty significant. > > > > > Yeah, but significant in what way? We have two fairly popular distributions > > using nano, but over 1,000,000 people trying to figure out how to exit vi on > > stackexchange. Is the user base for other distros defaulting to vi just > > that > > much bigger? > > Dunno. Maybe if Debian and Ubuntu defaulted to vi there'd be 5,000,000 > people? :D Probably! :D -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:43:10AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > Mints just a derivative of openSuse, isn't it? It would make sense that > > this followed. > I thought it was a derivative of Debian and/or Ubuntu? Wikipedia has it > in the 'Ubuntu derivatives' category. But anyhow, it doesn't behave > like openSUSE, it doesn't have the weird mix - for all three tests I > used (visudo, git, systemctl edit) I got nano. It is an Ubuntu derivative, with a back-up version which pulls directly from Debian. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 13:37 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > > Mint's default seems to be nano, though like openSUSE, it is doing this > > some way other than by setting $EDITOR. > > > Mints just a derivative of openSuse, isn't it? It would make sense that this > followed. I thought it was a derivative of Debian and/or Ubuntu? Wikipedia has it in the 'Ubuntu derivatives' category. But anyhow, it doesn't behave like openSUSE, it doesn't have the weird mix - for all three tests I used (visudo, git, systemctl edit) I got nano. > > So, it's a bit of a mixed bag, overall. But Ubuntu and Mint both using > > nano is pretty significant. > > > Yeah, but significant in what way? We have two fairly popular distributions > using nano, but over 1,000,000 people trying to figure out how to exit vi on > stackexchange. Is the user base for other distros defaulting to vi just that > much bigger? Dunno. Maybe if Debian and Ubuntu defaulted to vi there'd be 5,000,000 people? :D -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make nano the default editor
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:15:45AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 12:39 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > > Also, have we asked the question, what default editor are other distros > > setting? > > I've honestly never looked. > > The Change page says "More in line with the default editor of other > distributions." But it doesn't give more detail, so I did a bit of > research! > Thanks! > Ubuntu's default is nano, per various search results. > > openSUSE's (I tested the Leap 15.1 GNOME live image) is...mostly vi, > though this is implemented some other way than $EDITOR, because `echo > $EDITOR` shows nothing. `visudo` and `git commit` run vi, but > `systemctl edit` runs nano. Not sure what's going on there. > I know git hard codes vi as the final default, so that tracks, I'm not sure how visudo and systemctl pick an editor. Etiher way, whatever we pick, we probably shouldn't implement it like this. > At least as of 2015, Arch considered changing to nano but stuck with > vi, though one of their key arguments at the time was "everyone else > uses vi", and it seems the issue was slightly complicated by the > question of what packages would or wouldn't be in their 'core': > https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2015-April/027133.html > As of 2019 it still seems to be vi: > https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=245675 > > Mint's default seems to be nano, though like openSUSE, it is doing this > some way other than by setting $EDITOR. > Mints just a derivative of openSuse, isn't it? It would make sense that this followed. > So, it's a bit of a mixed bag, overall. But Ubuntu and Mint both using > nano is pretty significant. > Yeah, but significant in what way? We have two fairly popular distributions using nano, but over 1,000,000 people trying to figure out how to exit vi on stackexchange. Is the user base for other distros defaulting to vi just that much bigger? > > > Don't focus on git. It's not just about git. git was just a convenient > > > example of something that launches the default text editor. > > > > > Sure, we can substitue any other tool here that has to fork an editor from > > the > > command line, and some of those will be far more in line with what a novice > > non-developer might use. I just think for those users, nano likely isn't > > going > > to move the needle much, and I'm not sure how many of those users Fedora > > gets, > > or looses on this point. I know we can't really get that data, but it sure > > would be great to have. > > > > > > So the user you are describing > > > > > > > > 1) Isn't skilled in command line usage > > > > 2) Chose to use the command line anyway, despite having a littany of > > > > IDE's > > > > available > > > > 3) Was sufficiently well versed in development process to chose to use > > > > an SCM, > > > > and to search for commands to work with it (setting asside their lack of > > > > understanding of what they were doing) > > > > 4) But wasn't sufficiently well versed enough to go back and find out > > > > how to use > > > > the editor that their scm choice chose to default to > > > > > > > > I just don't see that that person really exists. > > > > > > There are literally multiple people in the thread telling you this > > > literally happened to them or to people they know who asked them for > > > help. I am one of them. > > I think thats an overstatement. If it isnt, I apologize, but I really have > > a hard > > time believing that they comply with 1-3 (those are entirely believable), > > but > > then threw their hands up in the air when confronted with a window that they > > could sort of edit text in. As shown above, typing "I typed in and this > > wierd screen poped up that I could kind of edit" into google answered that > > question in the top result. > > Sure, like I wrote elsewhere in the thread, it's probably less of a > complete roadblock than it used to be. But it's still an unnecessary > pain point. Yes, people can probably get through it in fifteen minutes > these days, but it's still unnecessarily annoying. Why cause them the > trouble? Thats a fair question. I thinik the best answer I could give is one of balance. I can't argue that it may be a pain point for new users, but for our existing user base, the change to something else is a hassle (arguably less of a hassle because they have learned how to set the default to what they want, but I never like the idea of our creating more work for our existing users when we don't know that an equally large portion of new users will benefit). I say that keeping in mind that we're assuming that new users will struggle with vi, I think its also possible that new users will have my good experience with this sort of roadblock, as much so as the negative experience you had. Neil > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net > http://www.happyassassin.net
