subject:"Re\: Proposed F19 Feature\: Cinnamon as Default Desktop"

Jan Kratochvil wrote:
 From what I have reports even Fedora 32-bit does not boot on such machines
 because nobody tests the bleeding edge Fedora kernels on such obsolete
 hardware.

FYI, kernel-3.7.3-101.fc17.i686 runs fine on a Pentium 4 Northwood (which 
predates EM64T, i.e. what's now known as Intel 64). It's what I'm sending 
this message from.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Adam Williamson wrote:
 It's an *initial* state, not a never-changing one. When I first decided
 I was going to try Linux, I wanted to try Linux. I wanted exactly what
 our download page gives you - a simple link to a thing called Linux I
 could download and fiddle with. I'm not sure I wanted my first encounter
 with the Linux world to be a boxout explaining to me what KDE and GNOME
 were and asking me to pick one or the other. These things are obviously
 things I came to learn about later, but they're not the most fascinating
 topic to deal with when you first decide you want to play around with
 this here Linux thing.

The desktop environment is going to be the main piece of software they're 
going to try out and a major part of the user experience they'll be getting. 
If you make the wrong choice for them, not telling them about the options at 
all, they'll end up disgusted of that Linux thing and will go back to the 
proprietary OS they used before, never to be seen again, and they'll never 
even realize that a better desktop exists.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Debarshi Ray wrote:

 I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm.
 
 I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible.
 
 Because gnome-shell (running in a special mode) is nowadays the greeter
 used by GDM. That does not mean GDM won't let you log into KDE if you have
 it installed.
 
 As for GDM requiring gnome-shell, I don't think it should come across as
 surprising because GDM is GNOME's display manager. If you dislike GNOME so
 much then get yourself a different display manager.

It's the opposite dependency he's complaining about, gnome-shell requires 
gdm-libs, which requires gdm for some reason.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Debarshi Ray wrote:

 Keep in mind that to get to the point of installing an alternative-only
 DE, in current Fedora, you normally first have a full blown Gnome3
 installed, which is close to impossible to get rid of.
 
 [citation needed]

There's no straightforward way to remove GNOME: yum groupremove
gnome-desktop does NOT work, it removes half of the distro. (In fact, yum 
groupremove is entirely useless as implemented right now, let's see whether 
the groups as objects feature will make it work any better or even worse.)

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Adam Williamson wrote:
 ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There
 seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not
 correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have
 multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option.

Last I checked, GDM also hid that feature so well that many users missed it. 
In fact, unless this changed recently, when you input your user name, the 
option is NOT shown, it only appears after you confirm your user name, 
during the password prompt.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

drago01 wrote:
 There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want
 to mess up with packages).

Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks 
(install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and 
the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier?

I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you 
the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic 
dependency resolution instead of bundling everything).

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Adam Williamson wrote:

 On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 02:59 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
 , but since you started it: OpenSUSE is doing just fine
 doing exactly what I suggest (making people actually pick their
 download). Their download button actually points to a selector, not
 directly to an ISO.
 
 That would be the SUSE that along with Mandriva got completely panned
 when Ubuntu showed up, then? To the point where they've since been sold
 two times and have never really recovered.

That was BEFORE OpenSUSE and thus BEFORE the selector was introduced. Back 
then, the default in SuSE was KDE and only KDE. Then Novell came and started 
pushing GNOME. And only then came OpenSUSE.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Alec Leamas wrote:

 On 2013-02-05 21:46, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
 You ordered Gnome and have been served Pizza for a long time - now
 you're being served Burgers :-)

 Well, from a nutrition perspective that's actually a big step forward.
 Perhaps time to trust the chef?  ;)

Huh? A plain cheese pizza (be it an original Pizza Margherita or an 
American-style cheese pizza) is much more suitable as an everyday meal than 
a burger. You know you're not supposed to eat meat every day, right? :-)

And if the cheese is too heavy for you, try Pizza Marinara (i.e., with only 
tomatos, garlic, and maybe some herbs).

(I know this is way off-topic, but I just HAD to defend one of the Italian 
national dishes there. :-) )

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Rave it wrote:

 There is a current poll at fedora forum.
 http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463
 
 The winner is...

There are several factors which bias this poll:
* GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be
using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default.
* Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3.
* Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most)
GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally
recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best
GNOME 3 support.

If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different 
results:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/
and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we
picked a different default.

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread Martin Sourada

Hi Kevin,

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:09:15 +0100 
Kevin Kofler wrote:

 There are several factors which bias this poll:
 * GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users
 will be using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default.
 * Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3.
 * Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even
 most) GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is
 universally recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the
 distro with the best GNOME 3 support.
 
 If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very
 different results:
 http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/
 and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well
 if we picked a different default.
While I inherently believe that that no internet poll can present
statistically relevant data (unless huge majority of user-base actually
votes), it's actually interesting to see that XFCE is coming second
(about 1/4 of votes), after KDE of course (about 1/3 of votes), in the
poll you linked. And has twice the votes than the third, which is GNOME
Shell (about 1/8 of votes). That's the first time I've seen XFCE win
over GNOME, LOL. And yeah, I agree with you about the bias in Fedora
poll.

joke So, when XFCE-4.12 comes into Fedora (Fedora 20?), how about
starting this flamewar again with XFCE as Default Desktop feature 
request? We already tried this with KDE and Cinnamon, after all and 
XFCE is the second most popular in some random internet poll ;-)/joke

Maybe we would really be better off if we provided user with the
initial choice between KDE, GNOME and XFCE, instead of pointing him
directly to 64bit GNOME, which does not boot on half of the world...

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Martin Sourada wrote:
 That's the first time I've seen XFCE win over GNOME, LOL.

It shouldn't be, it was the same last year (and I had already posted the
link back then). :-)
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2011-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-95/desktop-environment-of-the-year-919888/

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread Ian Malone

On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada martin.sour...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

  * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's
target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of
those are seeing this as arrogance.

 Being different does not imply different target audience ... same
 thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released.
 Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;)


Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is
starting to do this.

  * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut
down).

 Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented
 differently.


Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it.

  * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
way.

 Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever
 you want with the desktop 


Is anyone doing that?


  * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8.

 GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on
 touch devices then previous releases  supporting new hardware
 isn't really a bad thing imo.

And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate
for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. I still use Gnome
3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it
quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know
how to close down an app), but I do find that:
1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there
are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is
because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to
the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a
KDE desktop and use four routinely.
2. I do less with my computer. Fedora installs quite a lot of
applications, some of which are interesting. Occasionally I'd spot
something in a menu and think 'that's interesting', I don't do this
any more.

-- 
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread Michael Scherer

Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:09 +0100, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
Rave it wrote:

There is a current poll at fedora forum.
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=284463

The winner is...

There are several factors which bias this poll:
* GNOME 3 is the default in Fedora, so of course more Fedora users will be
using it, merely due to the fact that it is the default.
* Some people actually left Fedora over GNOME 3.
* Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, many (possibly even most)
GNOME 3 users are actually using Fedora now, because Fedora is universally
recommended to people wanting to try GNOME 3 as the distro with the best
GNOME 3 support.

If you do a poll across users of all distributions, you get very different
results:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-environment-of-the-year-4175441851/
and I believe the results for Fedora would be very different as well if we
picked a different default.

Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless, thanks to
demonstrate that once more. Just to be as clear as possible, I will only
speak of 2 points :

1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on
irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be dying.
There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the
number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a
handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions.

2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to default to gnome 3, then
why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ?
Is it because :
- Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell
does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ?
- Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and
so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all
representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by
taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical )
- Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are
far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ?

--
Michael Scherer

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread drago01

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Ian Malone ibmal...@gmail.com wrote:

  * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
way.

 Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever
 you want with the desktop 


 Is anyone doing that?

https://extensions.gnome.org/ ... seems so ;)


  * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8.

 GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on
 touch devices then previous releases  supporting new hardware
 isn't really a bad thing imo.

 And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate
 for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop.

GNOME 3 is not a mobile phone interface. Repeating that multiple times
does not make it true.

  I still use Gnome
 3, despite the many helpful suggestions to change. I don't find it
 quite as annoying as Windows 8 (where it's sometimes hard even to know
 how to close down an app), but I do find that:
 1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there
 are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is
 because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to
 the activities view and they aren't segregated well.

You have a keyboard Crtl-Alt-up/down works fine (Odd on a mobile
phone interface but you can do a lot of things with the keyboard).

And now I think this thread is going nowhere lets stop here.
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread Michael Scherer

Le samedi 09 février 2013 à 11:34 +, Ian Malone a écrit :
 On 9 February 2013 00:37, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada martin.sour...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
 
   * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's
 target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of
 those are seeing this as arrogance.
 
  Being different does not imply different target audience ... same
  thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released.
  Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;)
 
 
 Gnome 2 slowly returned to the old behaviour in many ways. Gnome 3 is
 starting to do this.
 
   * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut
 down).
 
  Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented
  differently.
 
 
 Hidden. On the bizarre assumption users didn't need it.

based on the assumption that showing hibernate, suspend, reboot,
shutdown, log out, lock was asking too much questions and that we could
do better. See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html for
the rational of the problem.

And if people had discussed with the designers, they would have seen
designers answering yes, the current design is not perfect, we are
aware, but we do not know how to do better, we have to think about. For
now, we have to release.

In the end, you have to select a design and release. Contrary to the
popular belief, Gnome took in account the KDE 4 releases lessons and
pushed gnome-shell for 2 releases to avid the stability issues ( and to
be fair for KDE4, the biggest stability issues came mostly from Nvidia
(http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 ), but of course, people prefer to
blame free software developers rather than questioning their choice of
using a closed source binary )

And the assumption was that using the power button would have been easy
enough for people to get it ( since people do get it for like almost
every possible electronic stuff and likely all computers stuff except a
few one ). It doesn't seems a totally bizarre assumption to me.

   * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
 way.
 
  Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever
  you want with the desktop 
 
 
 Is anyone doing that?

That's the problem. Most people prefer to talk rather to do work. 
And then complain that the others do not do exactly what they want for
free and immediately.

 
   * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8.
 
  GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on
  touch devices then previous releases  supporting new hardware
  isn't really a bad thing imo.
 
 And neither much contemplated that the interface that's appropriate
 for a mobile phone is not appropriate for a desktop. 

Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone.
And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is
still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk
also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ).

Gnome 3 and Gnome-shell is not for a smartphone because :

1) none of the applications are suitable for a very small screen ( like
a phone ). Just try with Xnest. Or use a VM with a ridiculously low
resolution.
 
2) given the resolution of a regular smart phone, the icon on the upper
bar would either take too much space in order to be usable, or would be
hard to hit. Unless you use a stylet, but I didn't see any smart phones
proposing this since 2008. That's for example a problem that plagued the
illume interface on the SHR distribution for the free runner.
Please also note that the upper bar cannot be expended, while it is one
most smartphones. So to be used on smartphone, you need to adjust it.

3) the only phone I know who can have a view of all applications is the
N9 on Meego. And that's just to close applications, not to move them to
another desktop or anything. Neither iPhone nor Android does it, and not
even talking of symbian os. So the whole interaction is rather
different. And of course, there is no keyboard shortcut for the feature,
since n9 do not have keyboard. So again, you would have to make
adjustment.

4) gnome-shell search need a keyboard. There is more and more refinement
on it, because that's a important part of the system. Nowadays, most
phones do not come with a keyboard, neither do most tablets. And the few
phone with a keyboard are having a numeric keypad. Typing anything is
slow in the best case. So again, that's something that would need
adjustment for a smartphone.

So when the developpers say this is not made for a phone, when there is
actual strong evidence that it doesn't work on a phone, why do people
insist on the contrary ?
-- 
Michael Scherer

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
 
 Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
  On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
  I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
  statement, namely that there is a completely different target
  audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.
 
  I am that datapoint.
 
  As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
  their hands). No idea how representative that it.
 
 The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz
 too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
 GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do
 not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal
 of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's
 efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a
 smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there.
 
 So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for
 everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy
 that permeated other presentations).

1. The poll was right at the beginning
2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand
3. I don't get how we were intimidating
4. A user interface is more like a bike shed than anything else

Obviously I sat together with other GNOME people, as I know them.
Sometimes I sit randomly in the audience. I find it curious that you
find something negative about my behaviour.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 11:21:49PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
 I stand by my statement that this was a very awkward moment, with Vincent
 and the GNOME team radiating unhappiness and pretty much everyone else
 being perplexed and wondering whether they should take offence at being
 accused of being mad or if it was some weird form of apology. Certainly
 not the kind of celebration being portrayed here.
 
 As for the vocifering, I'll leave that to others.

Radiating unhappiness? As you're talking about me I will reply briefly:
bullshit. I would appreciate that you stop suggesting this about my and
my friends, thanks.

Note that and I think most other didn't know the contents of the talk
that Vincent would give.

Did you actually attend the presentation? It really seems you did not.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Michael Scherer wrote:
 Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone.
 And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is
 still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk
 also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ).

But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the 
target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate 
for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you 
cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a 
smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for?

Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks 
like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do 
Unity and Window$ 8's Modern UI (formerly known as Metro), which both 
suffer from the exact same problem).

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

Michael Scherer wrote:
 Well, a majority of people think such polls are useless,

Do you have a poll to prove that? ;-)

Seriously, the only thing more inaccurate than statistic is MADE UP
statistics. :-/

 1) 792 people. Just to compare, there is 300 people on #fedora-devel on
 irc, and 800 on #puppet on irc, a media which is said to be dying.
 There as around 4000 visitors in FOSDEM in 2008, 5 years ago. So the
 number of people is just low. I do truly hope we have more than a
 handful 1000 users across _all_ distributions.

Do you know what a sample is?

 2) if the fedora forums poll is biased due to default to gnome 3, then
 why isn't unity being more represented in the linuxquestion poll ?
 Is it because :
 - Unity, by some magic reason, do not bias anything while gnome-shell
 does ( ie, your argument is invalidated by the data you cite ) ?
 - Ubuntu users have their own forums, like many others distributions and
 so they are not present ( and so this also bias more by being not at all
 representative of a group we can safely count as million of user, ie by
 taking extremly conservative view of the number given by Canonical  )
 - Ubuntu users, despite perception and enough converging evidences, are
 far from being a important enough group to count and to bias the poll ?

The answer's right there:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2012-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-104/desktop-distribution-of-the-year-4175441843/
Looks like most Ubuntu users actually don't use Unity. Maybe it sucks even
more than GNOME 3 does, maybe Ubuntu is actually better at promoting other
choices (see Kubuntu and Xubuntu) than we are, or maybe LinuxQuestions is
more likely to attract people using something other than the default than
FedoraForum, I don't know. (There seem to be more GNOME 3 users than Fedora
users on LinuxQuestions, so it looks like folks are also using GNOME 3 on
other distros. Still, it's much less popular than KDE and Xfce, and compared
to the year before, Cinnamon has almost caught up to it.)

Kevin Kofler

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 03:46:57PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
 Michael Scherer wrote:
  Gnome-shell is not mean to be used nor appropriate for a mobile phone.
  And despite being rather usable on a touch screen ( I tested ), it is
  still not sufficient there for 1 million of details ( Vincent Untz talk
  also said the same, see gnome people to see the details ).
 
 But it is clearly inspired by mobile phone UIs. Why? Phones are not the 
 target, so why copy them? It leads to an interface which is not appropriate 
 for ANY platform. It's not appropriate for mobile phones for the reasons you 
 cite, it's not appropriate for computers because it looks and feels like a 
 smartphone UI, so what IS it appropriate for?

Touch friendliness (but on a laptop / desktop).

 Users of computers have certain expectations of how a user interface looks 
 like, and gnome-shell completely fails to meet those expectations (as do 
 Unity and Window$ 8's Modern UI (formerly known as Metro), which both 
 suffer from the exact same problem).

In my country smart phones are outselling computers, computer sales are
way down.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-09 Thread Pierre-Yves Chibon

On Sat, 2013-02-09 at 15:01 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 08:35:56PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
  
  Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
   On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
   I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
   statement, namely that there is a completely different target
   audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.
  
   I am that datapoint.
  
   As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
   their hands). No idea how representative that it.
  
  The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz

I didn't get this feeling seeing the questions asked at the end.

  too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
  GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do
  not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal
  of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's
  efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a
  smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there.
  
  So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for
  everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy
  that permeated other presentations).
 
 1. The poll was right at the beginning
 2. I don't get how it is intimidating to raise your hand
 3. I don't get how we were intimidating

The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you,
not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something
they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people.
I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from
this talk

Pierre
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 05:38:46PM +0100, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
 The only thing I can think of is that people turning their back on you,
 not looking at you when you are asked to raise your hand on something
 they worked on, this might be intimidating to some people.
 I was not one of these, and I certainly got a different feeling from
 this talk

We were sitting at the front and thus you turn around to see how many
people are raising their hands.

In any case, I'll keep it brief. For this current argument:
- I provided a measure, added that it is likely biased
- No responses to the measure, just changing the topic into yet
  something else (GNOME developers are intimidating/looking for a
  fight)

I'll leave it at that ☺

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 10:22:41AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
 drago01 wrote:
  There is no easy way to install applications (regular user don't want
  to mess up with packages).
 
 Huh? Fire up gnome-packagekit or Apper, choose your app, make 2 or 3 clicks 
 (install, apply, confirm dependencies if any), enter your root password and 
 the app is there. How do you propose making this any easier?
 
 I don't understand all this app store hype. Our repository system gives you 
 the same advantages while being much sounder technically (automatic 
 dependency resolution instead of bundling everything).

It is providing a solution from the maintainer perspective. Ideally
everything should be packaged by a distribution. But sometimes it is
nice to have a stable distribution, bit still easily be able to test a
development version of some app and see if your bug has been fixed. Same
for the maintainer who just wants to provide something for loads of
distributions, not wait if someone makes a package for every
distribution out there.

A distribution does not scale as much as all individual maintainers can
IMO. That said, distribution is still preferred (drawbacks of the
solution like shipping your own libraries is ugly).
-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Gnome-shell workspaces (Was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop)

2013-02-09 Thread Samuel Sieb


On 02/09/2013 03:34 AM, Ian Malone wrote:

1. I no longer use workspaces to manage different tasks unless there
are lots of windows and then I sometimes overflow onto 2. This is
because they're less useful as you now can't switch without going to
the activities view and they aren't segregated well. At work I have a
KDE desktop and use four routinely.


On my laptop, I have four workspaces.  One for email, one for Eclipse, 
one for my pile of browser windows, and one for other stuff.  I also 
have a terminal with many tabs in each workspace.  Other than the 
standard shortcuts for switching between workspaces (which I rarely 
use), I have mapped Logo[1-4] to directly switch between workspaces. 
I rarely need to go to the overview other than starting programs.


As an aside, when I first saw gnome-shell, I thought it would be 
horrible to use.  But after a while of using it, finding 
gnome-tweak-tool, and installing a couple of extensions, I've been quite 
happy with it.  I actually think it's more keyboard friendly than Gnome 
2 was.

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Stijn Hoop

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:47:48 +0100
Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:

 On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote:
  On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100
  Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:
  The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely
  different product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing*
  in common with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target
  audience.
 
  Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been
  conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine.
 
 Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing.
 
 Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and 
 therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences.
 They are similarly different as WinXP and Android are different in
 their GUIs' working principles.
 
 I can not help you if do not understand what I am talking about.
 
 Ralf
 

I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
statement, namely that there is a completely different target
audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.

I am that datapoint.

I know that it is my anecdata, but I am pretty sure that I have not yet
read any actual facts supporting your side of the argument as well.

Furthermore I am pretty sure that I am not the only one enjoying GNOME
3, while having enjoyed GNOME 2, having read the other posts in this
thread.

Hopefully that is clearer, regards,

--Stijn
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Olav Vitters

On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
 I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
 statement, namely that there is a completely different target
 audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.
 
 I am that datapoint.

As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
their hands). No idea how representative that it. Also people who didn't
like it, etc. As said during that presentation, figuring out if
something is felt by either a small focal minority or that it is generic
(representative) is pretty difficult and anyone is of course feel free
to assist.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread drago01

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:
 On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote:

 On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100
 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:

 The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different
 product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common
 with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience.


 Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been
 conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine.


 Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing.

 Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and
 therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences.

Citation needed for implication is different - catering the
demands of different target audiences .
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Nicolas Mailhot


Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
 On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
 I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
 statement, namely that there is a completely different target
 audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.

 I am that datapoint.

 As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
 their hands). No idea how representative that it.

The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz
too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do
not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal
of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's
efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a
smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there.

So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for
everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy
that permeated other presentations).

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Stijn Hoop

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:35:56 +0100
Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote:

 
 Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
  On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
  I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
  statement, namely that there is a completely different target
  audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.
 
  I am that datapoint.
 
  As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to
  raise their hands). No idea how representative that it.
 
 The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent
 Untz too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this
 knot of GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating,
 and people do not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is
 the complete refusal of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in
 the same bucket. Lennart's efforts to explain his project, understand
 sysadmin needs, provide a smooth transition and keep current usages
 working clearly paid off there.
 
 So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward
 moment for everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the
 positive energy that permeated other presentations).
 

To be honest, I don't think any poll will ever suffice for this topic.
Nor do I think a poll is what's needed.

It should simply be easier to switch to a desktop that Works For You,
especially after installation, and even before if possible. That way we
can keep the anti-GNOME-3 people happy as well.

In the end I guess we can't get rid of the fanatical GNOME 3 is for
tablets only meme (and others like it that I personally don't agree
with), but hey, I don't mind as long as I can ignore those.

But I will keep objecting to the single-sided argument that there is
no GNOME 2 user that likes GNOME 3. I fully support those who have
tried and rejected the new stuff -- as long as they don't impose their
opinion on me :-)

--Stijn
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Jef Spaleta

I'm not sure there's any place in our community where it is acceptable
for people to go to fight. Nor do I think that would be healthy.
I would prefer to think that noone in our community really wants to
hurt anyone else.  I think if anyone showed up at any face-to-face
meeting specifically with the intent to fight or to hurt someone
they would feel intimidated and would modify their behavior
accordingly.

So I really don't understand why FOSDEM as a collection of individuals
at a face-to-face meeting. would be any different than another
face-to-face meeting.

But I will say that I would prefer it if our written communication
channels were similarly less tolerant of individuals who show up
primarily to fight or are intent on hurting someone.  Text
communication channels, are inherently prone to a loss of civility,
and by collectively condoning behavior we'd otherwise find
uncomfortable in a face to face setting we hasten the debasement of
the level of discourse therein.

-jef

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Nicolas Mailhot
nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote:

 Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
 On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
 I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
 statement, namely that there is a completely different target
 audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.

 I am that datapoint.

 As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
 their hands). No idea how representative that it.

 The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz
 too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
 GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do
 not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal
 of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's
 efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a
 smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off there.

 So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for
 everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy
 that permeated other presentations).

 --
 Nicolas Mailhot

 --
 devel mailing list
 devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Lennart Poettering

On Fri, 08.02.13 20:35, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote:

 
 Le Ven 8 février 2013 13:22, Olav Vitters a écrit :
  On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 10:34:58AM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
  I am providing a datapoint that directly contradicts your original
  statement, namely that there is a completely different target
  audience for GNOME 2 vs GNOME 3.
 
  I am that datapoint.
 
  As are various others during FOSDEM (Vincent Untz asked people to raise
  their hands). No idea how representative that it.
 
 The FOSDEM poll was stacked — no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz
 too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
 GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do
 not go to FOSDEM to fight. What is telling however is the complete refusal
 of the audience to put systemd and Gnome 3 in the same bucket. Lennart's
 efforts to explain his project, understand sysadmin needs, provide a
 smooth transition and keep current usages working clearly paid off
 there.

Actually, don't try to separate us systemd folks too much from the
GNOME3 folks. I as one of the systemd guys, am a GNOME3 guy too. I fully
support GNOME3's goals, much of my work I see as groundwork to achieve
GNOME3's goals, and I believe GNOME3 is the best thing that ever happened
to the Linux desktop. When I see a GNOME2 desktop it appears like a trip
down memory lane to me, and even though it was only a few years ago that
GNOME2 was the state of the art of a Linux desktop it now appears to be
as old as Windows 3.1 to me. And I am really thankful I don't have to
use Windows 3.1 anymore.

So yeah, I'll jump in defending GNOME 3 any time, thank you very much,
even though I know that these discussions will never stop any haters
from hating, and never stop them from doing this publicly, and
repetitively and loudly on mailing lists such as this one.

Lennart

-- 
Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Debarshi Ray

 The FOSDEM poll was stacked ??? no one really wanted to hurt Vincent Untz
 too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
 GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people do

 [...]

 So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment for
 everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive energy
 that permeated other presentations).

Sounds like bitterness to me.

First we had the rabid hordes of hatred mongers running surveys, polls and
what not to support their claims of how GNOME 3 sucks and no one uses it
anymore and so on and so forth.

Now that the other side of the argument is coming to light, you are trying to
cling on to your vociferous claims at all costs.

For what it is worth, I have been using GNOME since 2004 and absolutely loved
the move to GNOME3.

Cheers,
Debarshi


-- 
If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars
and electricity would have done it too.  -- Arjun Shankar


pgpw1I3aTrmeb.pgp
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Debarshi Ray

 I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm.
 
 I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible.

Because gnome-shell (running in a special mode) is nowadays the greeter used
by GDM. That does not mean GDM won't let you log into KDE if you have it
installed.

As for GDM requiring gnome-shell, I don't think it should come across as
surprising because GDM is GNOME's display manager. If you dislike GNOME so
much then get yourself a different display manager.

Cheers,
Debarshi

-- 
If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars
and electricity would have done it too.  -- Arjun Shankar


pgpeO6FmBx7O0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Debarshi Ray

 Keep in mind that to get to the point of installing an alternative-only 
 DE, in current Fedora, you normally first have a full blown Gnome3 
 installed, which is close to impossible to get rid of.

[citation needed]

Cheers,
Debarshi

-- 
If computers are going to revolutionize education, then steam engines and cars
and electricity would have done it too.  -- Arjun Shankar


pgpCXShvAfgaH.pgp
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Nicolas Mailhot


Le Ven 8 février 2013 21:30, Debarshi Ray a écrit :
 The FOSDEM poll was stacked ??? no one really wanted to hurt Vincent
 Untz
 too much given his obvious efforts to be nice, there was this knot of
 GNOME people bunched together that were a tad intimidating, and people
 do

 [...]

 So don't overplay the GNOME 3 FOSDEM session, it was an awkward moment
 for
 everyone involved (and certainly not representative of the positive
 energy
 that permeated other presentations).

 Sounds like bitterness to me.

[…]

 Now that the other side of the argument is coming to light, you are trying
 to cling on to your vociferous claims at all costs.

Do you realise my vociferous claims didn't even include an opinion on
which side of the argument the audience was leaning towards most? Can you
please stop the stupid bunker mentality?

I stand by my statement that this was a very awkward moment, with Vincent
and the GNOME team radiating unhappiness and pretty much everyone else
being perplexed and wondering whether they should take offence at being
accused of being mad or if it was some weird form of apology. Certainly
not the kind of celebration being portrayed here.

As for the vocifering, I'll leave that to others.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Nicolas Mailhot

Lennart,

For better or worse Vincent Untz had people express themselves on systemd
at FOSDEM, and pretty much everyone thought you were doing great. I can
understand your regrets that it was less the case for your GNOME 3
friends, but that should not overshadow this great achievement of the
systemd team.

Given the scope of your work, I don't think anyone would have predicted a
week ago systemd could attain such a complete adhesion. That is something
to remember and rejoice on.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Martin Sourada

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:45:30 +0100 
Stijn Hoop wrote:
 But I will keep objecting to the single-sided argument that there is
 no GNOME 2 user that likes GNOME 3. I fully support those who have
 tried and rejected the new stuff -- as long as they don't impose their
 opinion on me :-)
I don't think anyone ever claimed such thing. What we (the Gnome 2
fans, but Gnome 3 haters) are saying is basically this:
 * Gnome 3 is a radical change from Gnome 2, in many ways, and for many
   people this was an unacceptable direction. These were numerous
   enough to get Cinnamon, Mate and Unity up and working. Some of those
   (including me) expanded XFCE (or other classical desktops) user
   base. These combined are a real lot of people. These users aren't
   going to return.
 * Gnome devs didn't learn from KDE's mistake (the release of beta
   stuff as 4.0) and went even further. Users affected by only this
   might return (like Linus did).
 * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's
   target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of
   those are seeing this as arrogance.
 * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut
   down).
 * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
   way. That's one of the reasons why many of us are using linux than
   windows -- because it traditionally *does not* do so. Randomly
   breaking things with messages like (oops, something went wrong,
   please try again) or things behaving unpredictably is *not* the
   linux way.
 * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8.
 * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome 3,
   many users left Fedora during the switch.
 * We think that if we changed default desktop now, it would be less
   disruptive than when we switched from G2 to G3, because we wouldn't
   be switching to beta project, however I think that neither Cinnamon
   and Mate are good candidates. They're too recent both in the world
   and in Fedora repos. I'd rather have G3 as default than another
   semi-beta or monolithic-DE-maintained-by-two-or-three people stuff.
 * gnome devs are systematically removing features many former gnome
   users thought were useful, and sometimes adding them back again
   after a year or so of complains. We perceive that as devs doing
   whatever they wont and ignoring the real users in favour of some
   imaginary ones.
 * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda)
 * maybe I forgot something

Not every former gnome user agrees with these, but they're probably the
ones that are most prominent.

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread drago01

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Martin Sourada martin.sour...@gmail.com wrote:

  * Gnome devs didn't learn from KDE's mistake (the release of beta
stuff as 4.0) and went even further. Users affected by only this
might return (like Linus did).

I can't recall that many stability bugs getting reported against GNOME
3.0 ... so [citation needed].

  * Gnome 3's target audience does not enclose majority of Gnome 2's
target audience, though it *does* have some intersection. Many of
those are seeing this as arrogance.

Being different does not imply different target audience ... same
thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released.
Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;)

  * Some trivial stuff is taking months to years to re-implement (shut
down).

Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented
differently.

  * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
way.

Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever
you want with the desktop 

That's one of the reasons why many of us are using linux than
windows -- because it traditionally *does not* do so. Randomly
breaking things with messages like (oops, something went wrong,
please try again) or things behaving unpredictably is *not* the
linux way.

Strawman.

  * We think Gnome 3 is doing similar type of mistake as Windows 8.

GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better on
touch devices then previous releases  supporting new hardware
isn't really a bad thing imo.

  * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome 3,
many users left Fedora during the switch.

[citation needed].

Anecdotes do not count (there are user that switched to Fedora because
they wanted a good GNOME 3 experience).

  * gnome devs are systematically removing features many former gnome
users thought were useful, and sometimes adding them back again
after a year or so of complains. We perceive that as devs doing
whatever they wont and ignoring the real users in favour of some
imaginary ones.
  * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda)

That's a problem why exactly? Actually it is the opposite ... stuff
looks way better and polished if you compare it to the GNOME2.
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Jef Spaleta

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:37 PM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote:
 Being different does not imply different target audience ... same
 thing and discussion happened when GNOME 2.0 got released.
 Now the haters from back then want GNOME 2.0 back ;)

Can we start a new thread about bringing sawfish back as the default
window manager. Because really, it had a lot of features that I have
been missing through the entire g2 experience.

-jefsort of not jokingspaleta
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Martin Sourada

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 01:37:03 +0100 
drago01 wrote:

 I can't recall that many stability bugs getting reported against GNOME
 3.0 ... so [citation needed].
Well the fallback mode being a poor man's excuse was partly the case why
the people couldn't stay with gnome. Loads of features weren't
implemented in 3.0. If anything Gnome 3.0 was more of a technology
preview than fully usable desktop.

 Nonsense. Shutdown has always been implemented. It just got presented
 differently.
That's even more the reason -- the code was present, so it was not a
problem of not having the human resources to make it work as expected by
users. It was just the devs being stuck on the mundane idea that it's
bad to have it shown by default.

 
   * Gnome 3 is going the I-know-better-then-you-what's-good-for-you
 way.
 
 Sure by giving you an extension system that allows you to do whatever
 you want with the desktop 
 1st Gnome 3 isn't just a gnome shell, gnome apps are getting worse as
 well (but there are also some positive trends)
 2nd Yes, three major releases after 3.0 we finally get something that
 can be used by majority of gnome 2 user base. I'm sorry, but that's
 too late for most of them to think of going back.

 GNOME3 has nothing to do with windows 8 other than both work better
M on
 touch devices then previous releases  supporting new hardware
 isn't really a bad thing imo.
I think they've done the same mistake, that does not implicate that
they have anything else to do with each other (besides gnome shell is
older than Win 8). Being neither cat nor dog isn't a good thing, IMHO.
Either you optimize for touch devices or for traditional input, not for
both.

 
   * We believe that due to the differences between Gnome 2 and Gnome
  3, many users left Fedora during the switch.
Notice the wording I used. I'm not presenting it as fact, but as a
belief based on experience. There aren't any acceptable statistics to
either prove or disprove the claim.
 
 Anecdotes do not count (there are user that switched to Fedora because
 they wanted a good GNOME 3 experience).
That users left does not imply new didn't come ;-)

   * huge overuse of symbolic icons (this includes the new anaconda)
 
 That's a problem why exactly? Actually it is the opposite ... stuff
 looks way better and polished if you compare it to the GNOME2.
Better? Polished? Those huge lumps of blurry grey stuff you have no
idea what they represent? Oh yes, on my BW e-book reader they look
awesome, but on desktop? Are we back in the days when displays didn't
display colour? I tried directly comparing Nautilus with Thunar,
side-by-side, in F18. It's actually Nautilus that looks like from last
millennium, not Thunar. Despite having otherwise very similar interface.

I'm not against symbolic icons ideologically. They have their place in 
modern desktop. But when they are used too much, and in bigger sizes,
they tend to be bland. Plus, as they are actually composed of no more
than 2 or 3 shades/colours, they're very limited in how they can look,
so having too much of them is severely damaging your ability to tell
them apart.

And while talking about polish -- why in the world is the Adwaitha
scrollbar a grey rounded rectangle while almost everything else in the
theme is shaded with gradients, shadows and distinct borders? No, I
definitely cannot talk about polish when speaking about Gnome 3. In
some places yes, but it's hugely inconsistent. Looks like half-done
work (some areas polished [almost] professionally, while others are
bland and non-fitting with the rest). IMHO

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Kevin Fenzi

Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list? 

The subject of the thread has been decided... 

I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community
anymore. 

kevin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Martin Sourada

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 18:21:00 -0700 
Kevin Fenzi wrote:

 Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list? 
 
 The subject of the thread has been decided... 
 
 I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community
 anymore. 
 
Ah, yes, my apologies. I would rather end this off topic sub-thread
altogether. I don't want another flame, and I've already said pretty
much everything what I wanted to say, anything else would be just
rephrasing that...

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Orcan Ogetbil

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
 Could we move this to a gnome/desktop list?

 The subject of the thread has been decided...

 I don't think it's providing much value to the Fedora devel community
 anymore.


+1. Gnome 2 was counterintuitive enough. I can't imagine how Gnome 3
is like after all these comments (I never dared to try).

Please continue the discussion in some Gnome mailing list.

Thanks,
Orcan
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-08 Thread Rave it

Can a admin pls close this topic?

boring

since some days, people who don't want use gnome anymore are branded as
'haters' and 'reactionary'.
.i don't and want follow your logic.

regards,
Wolfgang
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-07 Thread Ralf Corsepius


On 02/06/2013 08:42 AM, Stijn Hoop wrote:

On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0100
Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:

The actual problem is the current Gnome 3 being an entirely different
product than Gnome 2, which usability-wise has *nothing* in common
with Gnome2 and addresses a completely different target audience.


Ralf, could you please stop this generalization. You have been
conveniently ignoring posts to the contrary, including mine.


Sorry, I don't see what I am generalizing.

Gnome3 and Gnome2's GUI working principles are entirely different and 
therefore are catering the demands of different target audiences. They 
are similarly different as WinXP and Android are different in their 
GUIs' working principles.


I can not help you if do not understand what I am talking about.

Ralf

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Martin Sourada

On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:53:20 -0800 
Adam Williamson wrote:
 You're a new Linux user, you go to our download page, and instead of a
 simple big green Download button, it starts asking you questions about
 what 'desktop environment' you want? What the hell is this crap?
Well, than with the current model you either:
 * download an ISO that fails to boot, because you still have a 32bit
   machine - never think about Fedora again.
 * See gnome shell, something totally different to what you've ever
   used - what the hell is this crap? Walk away.
 * If you happen to like (Yay, it looks like my Android phone!) it
   you'll get greeted by installed with grey icons - wait what? Is
   that actually for a computer with a colour display? Is that thing
   modern? I don't want to use oldish stuff. Walk away.
 * And if you still persist, you get greeted with an installer that's
   completely different to anything you've ever used. Where the hell is
   the next button? Have I forgot anything? I'm not feeling safe
   installing this. Walk away.

If you want to target this kind of users, you need to provide them with
similar-to-Windows experience -- or have a really strong marketing,
like Ubuntu does, to make users feel it's cool to use something they
don't know/like at first -- if you don't want them to quit instantly.
First impression does a lot and gnome shell isn't especially good with
*first* impressions.

I think the no-single-default DE is better. Let's say I think it's
better to go with more defaults -- i.e. the initial choice would be
of DEs that are known to be well maintained and supported in Fedora.
That's GNOME and KDE at the very least. The app defaults are then up to
the various desktops' teams - they would want to make their desktop
appeal to users if they cannot count on being downloaded directly from
homepage, right? And lets hope (WRT the bottom couple of points above)
that anacoda UI gets better in F20 (I generally agree with the reasons
why was anaconda finally rewritten).

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Ralf Corsepius


On 02/05/2013 07:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 17:17 +, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 05/02/13 16:58, Przemek Klosowski wrote:


What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the
desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection. In fact, I
am not sure what is the recommended method nowadays--- groupinstall KDE
+ groupremove Gnome? but this can't be right for XFCE which I think
shares stuff with Gnome..


If you want to change what display manager is used then just change what
/etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service points to.

What desktop a display manager starts will be a display manager specific
configuration option.


...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There
seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not
correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have
multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option.


I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm.

I.e. removing gdm without removing gnone-shell is not possible.

Ralf

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Mathieu Bridon

On Wed, 2013-02-06 at 10:01 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
 On 02/05/2013 07:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
  On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 17:17 +, Tom Hughes wrote:
  On 05/02/13 16:58, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
 
  What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the
  desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection. In fact, I
  am not sure what is the recommended method nowadays--- groupinstall KDE
  + groupremove Gnome? but this can't be right for XFCE which I think
  shares stuff with Gnome..
 
  If you want to change what display manager is used then just change what
  /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service points to.
 
  What desktop a display manager starts will be a display manager specific
  configuration option.
 
  ...but as Rahul said, they all allow you to log in to any desktop. There
  seems to be a meme in this thread that GDM does not, but that's not
  correct, it does. The choice is not visible unless you actually have
  multiple desktops installed, but when you do, it gives you the option.
 
 I know this applies, but installing gnome-shell pulls in gdm.

Wouldn't that just be a packaging bug?

gnome-shell requires gdm-libs
gdm requires gdm-libs

The requirement gdm-libs has on gdm seems unneeded at first glance.


-- 
Mathieu

-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Martin Sourada

On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:58:22 +0800 
Mathieu Bridon wrote:
 But your statement was even less backed by data. ;)
 
I was assuming the case of newcomers doing the switch by themselves,
coming from Windows (supposedly pre Win8), in rare cases from Mac OS X.
My data is generally known -- just look over the internet, or even usage
statistics (yeah I know they're far from exact). The introduction of
gnome shell and ubuntu unity is the reason why cinnamon and mate exist
and why XFCE regained popularity. Sure, some people later switched back
to GS or UU, but that no longer counts as *first* impressions. Even many
of the GS promoters are defending it with words like after using it a
bit you'll start to really like it. That's not *first* impression.

Your Mum and Dad are in a different situation -- you forced
them to use GS, they've been put in a different kind of situation than
newcomer that decided to try Fedora by himself.

But yeah, I'm *not* claiming I'm correct. These are my impressions and
opinions only ;-)

Martin


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 02:22:21PM +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote:
 Normally I try not to do this, but: what he said.

Vincent Untz asked for a show of hands of people who used GNOME 2, GNOME
3, switched, etc. Recommend seeing the FOSDEM video. Loads of people
indicated that they use GNOME 3, though less than GNOME 2. A while later
he asked who loved GNOME 3. Not sure how many GNOME 3 users love it due
to the time difference. There was one person who uses GNOME 3 and at the
same time hates it.

Anyway, recommend seeing the video once available, better than my guesswork :)

Note: due to the topic (GNOME community gone crazy?), I didn't expect
that many people who liked it would join actually. Note that the people
who work on GNOME in some way sat together, only judged on people I did
not recognize as people who help out GNOME in some way.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 09:28:16PM -0800, Eric Bergen wrote:
 Success! I've switched over to Cinnamon. The start style menu is back
 and I am happy. I'm sure I could get used to gnome-shell but my first
 experience wasn't a good one.

To add:
- Cinnamon was forked from gnome-shell, so any slowness you see in
  gnome-shell should be shared with Cinnamon, else the bugfix should be
  upstreamed. People have been saying that Cinnamon doesn't seem to
  include bugfixes made in gnome-shell though. Not verified/checked if
  that is true.
- GNOME 3.8 will have a new mode with some kind of start menu and a few
  other things (being vague because it is in development, not released
  yet, plus I have not tried it yet)

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 08:06:51PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
 what makes me rellay angry (as one who never used and will use
 GNOME and i knew GNOME 1.0 and KDE 1.0 as well where most users
 of today not heard about linux at all) is that the GNOME developers
 did NOT learn ANYTHING by the KDE4.0 disaster and that distributions
 are not straight enough to show ignorant upstream if you think you
 can abuse all your users by present a completly different desktop with

Please also look at all the changes we made and are making based on the
feedback we have gotten over the various releases. It is often listed in
the release notes, blogged about, etc. Extension system is a bit
forgotten in the announcements, but that went from fully experimental to
beta in just a few releases.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 12:04:44AM +0100, Rave it wrote:
 Your look in a crystal ball is far away from reality like the topic
 himself.
 Pls, give more to laugh.
 and stay close to facts instead of posting your personal
 perspective.
 This doesn't help us really.

Pot calling the kettle black.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 05.02.2013 21:31, schrieb Ian Malone:
 On 5 February 2013 20:10, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I wouldn't say Fedora follows blindly but rather chooses an upstream from
 some alternatives (their ability to handle feedback from us beeing one ot
 the criterias).
 
 Gnome has been the default, unless I'm misremebering since *before*
 Fedora (RH8/9 or earlier). That's not incompatible with 'chooses an
 upstream from some alternatives' but does suggest some inertia. Maybe
 if Gnome really thinks distros might drop them they'd think harder
 about introducing unwanted workflow changes every other release.

exactly that is my point

as long it is tolerated from any distro for any upstream
project do beark any compatibility why should developers
care about anything and spent time to think if the way they
are going is really the best for the users

currently the only reaction of many open source projects
is it is free so who do you think you are - by some
changes i say thank god it is free and not paied for it



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 05.02.2013 22:21, schrieb Luya Tshimbalanga:
 On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

 In the Gnome2 days you had choices between functionally similar DEs.

 Times have changed ... Gnome has been forked multiply (Gnome3, MATE, 
 Cinammon), xfce/enlightenment are back.

 Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years after Gnome 3 
 via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for
 self-interest because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell 
 extensions meaning they will become
 irrelevant in a future

and if the developers (in this case GNOME developers) would
be less ignorant while punish their users they would never
became relevent because there would have been no reason to fork

 because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell extensions

and why the hell did upstream not do this work from the
very frist beginning?

my definition of REwrite and optimize is

* clean up the code base
* provide the same functionality as before
* fix bugs
* release



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Pavel Simerda

- Original Message -
 From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net
 Am 05.02.2013 22:21, schrieb Luya Tshimbalanga:
  On 05/02/13 12:09 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
  Gnome 3 is still Gnome. Both MATE and Cinnamon which came years
  after Gnome 3 via Gnome-Shell, are reactionary for
  self-interest because these DE can easily reproduced through
  Gnome-Shell extensions meaning they will become
  irrelevant in a future
 
 and if the developers (in this case GNOME developers) would
 be less ignorant while punish their users they would never
 became relevent because there would have been no reason to fork

I couldn't agree more. I can hardly imagine how an open project can be so 
careless about such large groups of their own users.

  because these DE can easily reproduced through Gnome-Shell
  extensions
 
 and why the hell did upstream not do this work from the very frist beginning?

I wouldn't ask specific people to actually work on it. But it would be nice if 
the core developers provided more support, feature stability and API stability. 
To ask them to actively encourage alternative GUIs and allow them to be built 
on top of the Gnome stack instead of forking some of its projects... would be 
probably too much.

If only it could be possible to make most of the Gnome devs learn from the 
community feedback instead of giving marvellous talks at conferences about how 
much the community is wrong.

Cheers,

Pavel
-- 
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop

2013-02-06 Thread Przemek Klosowski


On 02/05/2013 12:00 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

What's worse is that it's harder than it used to be to change the
desktop---desktop style is no longer a login-time selection.

It certainly is.  Every login manager offers that option


Ah, another dummkopf moment for me---it only shows up when you actually 
installed the alternatives ('yum groupinstall xfce').

In retrospect it makes sense, but is not very discoverable.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop