Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Fri, Apr 01, 2011 at 05:32:04AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components of the OS. All applications. Ralf, did anybody already asked you what do you understand under the term 'system'? Did you answer? If 'no' is the answer for both questions (otherwise please point me to correct place), here it is: What do you understand under the term 'system'? It looks like your definition of 'system' could really differ from the common one. Everybody understands init is part of *system*, everybody understands initrd is part of *system*, everybody understands udev is part of *system*. Everybody understands directory used by these parts of system is *system* directory. Why don't you? -- Regards, Marian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 01.04.2011 05:32, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious what adjectives you think of next. Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works. You are not only insulting Lennart, but all people involved in the design and decision process for /run here. From now on you are on my /ignore list forever and I will not feed you troll anymore. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 04/01/2011 03:32 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious what adjectives you think of next. Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works. I'm not sure what is the cause for this hatred you seem to have but I'm pretty sure Lennart had nothing to do with it and taking your frustration out on him will accomplish nothing. With the negative responses you have shown you are actively being disruptive to the community and you are disrespecting not only the works of those within our community but also the collaboration work which is being done amongst various distribution in finally agreeing, fixing and standardising amongst the distribution this long overdo issues. So please try to be constructive and respectful in your responses. Thank you. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
2011/4/1 Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com: So please try to be constructive and respectful in your responses. Let me step in here as the Fedora Project Leader and end this thread. If you've got legitimate technical concerns with the implementation of the /run directory, please open another thread and keep the discussion on a technical level. Let's keep the discussion focused on what is right and not who is right. If your intent is to tear down others in the Fedora community, please don't bother doing it here. -- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 2011/4/1 Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com: So please try to be constructive and respectful in your responses. Let me step in here as the Fedora Project Leader and end this thread. Please note that I quoted Jóhann here as an example of good practice, not as an example of the reason I'm ending this thread. His was simply the last post in the thread at the time, and I'd rather quote something positive than letting the personal attacks continue. -- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 31.03.2011 01:38, schrieb Chris Adams: Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said: /etc is static configuration data. There are a number of things under /etc that are not static configuration data. /etc is read-only during boot. /run is writable all the way. /etc/run could be too. no.. /etc not yet there in the initramfs! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 03:21 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing things into the absurd: a) systemd is the application this all has begin with. b) what else but applications are creating run files? Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 04:12 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: On Wednesday, March 30, 2011 04:05:27 PM Orcan Ogetbil wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I think, for the first time in Fedora history, I agree with Lennart. +1, me too :))) R. After reading the above reference, this does not seem like an FHS violation. Even if it is, it is the FHS that needs to be updated. Then you might be able to explain the difference between a script being launched by systemd and any other arbitrary script? I don't see any, -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Thu, 31.03.11 13:13, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing things into the absurd: a) systemd is the application this all has begin with. systemd is part of the OS, it is the system. It's not an app running on the OS. Firefox is an app. b) what else but applications are creating run files? The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components of the OS. So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious what adjectives you think of next. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/31/2011 01:22 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 31.03.11 13:13, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing things into the absurd: a) systemd is the application this all has begin with. systemd is part of the OS, it is the system. It's not an app running on the OS. Firefox is an app. Twisting words, again - To me, systemd is an application. b) what else but applications are creating run files? The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components of the OS. All applications. So, now I am a violent crack addicted rapist in your eyes. I am curious what adjectives you think of next. Well, PC prohibits to pronounce what I actually think of your works. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 01:22:14PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 31.03.11 13:13, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I feel you are violently not wanting to understand and prefer tearing things into the absurd: a) systemd is the application this all has begin with. systemd is part of the OS, it is the system. It's not an app running on the OS. Firefox is an app. b) what else but applications are creating run files? The system. dracut, systemd, udev, and so on -- which all are components of the OS. While I've agreed with the need for /run, I think that the definition of application that you are using here is a more recent (and not universally adopted) differentiation from program than what existed in the FHS. We could try to contact Rusty Russell (who's posted something about /run here: https://lwn.net/Articles/436177/ ) to see if the terms application and program should be considered synonymous in the FHS or if they denote two separate things. Since the purpose of the FHS is to define interoperability between distributions and properly set the expectations of system administrators, however, the broader interpretation of application as synonymous with program is probably the better one until/unless an updated FHS defines the terms explicitly. -Toshio pgpzB9YZfTkCN.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, though presumably people consider this a bigger political change, so I guess this deserves an explanation: For quite a while programs involved with early boot used to place runtime data in /dev under numerous hidden dot directories. /dev/.udev was the first one, but over time this grew to at least /dev/.mdadm, /dev/.systemd, /dev/.mount, dracut, initscripts and more tools. (Other distros have even more) The reason they used directories there is that /dev was known to be a tmpfs and available from the first instant the machine was booted. /var/run otoh is only available very late at boot, since /var might reside on a separate file system. However, /dev always has been an inappropriate and ugly place for runtime data: runtime data is not a device node, and thus simply does not belong there. Also, hiding the existance of directories from the administator is a bad idea. Then, the fact that some runtime data was placed in /var/run/xxx, and other in /dev/.yyy is often not understandable to ther user, and especially when tools originally intended to be used only after boot are needed during early boot a complicated move between these directories needed to take place. Over time different distributions experimented with different broken solutions for the early-runtime-dir problem: on Debian /lib/init/rw was introduced, a tmpfs fs mounted during early boot. On Ubuntu /var/run was mounted as tmpfs even before /var itself was mounted, with some really ugly bind mount magic. Most software however just sidestepped the issue and used /dev/.xxx. In the past weeks key people from the Debian, Suse, Ubuntu and Fedora camps (and others, too) discussed the whole issue forth and back, to find a solution to stop the misuse of /dev before it becomes even more widespread. Various solutions have been suggested, but in the end it all boiled down to the fact that /var/run does not belong beneath /var and what we really want is a top-level directory /run, and that that is the only really clean solution. The only reason why nobody dared to actually implement such a directory was unwillingness to deal with the political backlash, especially messy discussions on mailing lists like this one. Understanding this, we came to the conclusion that we should rather implement what everybody thinks is the right technical solution, instead of evading the political backlash for it. And so we implemented this. With this upload Fedora and Suse have already adopted /run now. Debian folks will suggest this for their coming release. Ubuntu has agreed with introducing /run as well. Dracut, udev and systemd have already been updated upstream to make use of /run. We expect mdadm and mount to follow suit quickly. A few years back Debian folks already suggested introduction of /run, and even pinged LSB folks about this, and back then there even was a vaguely positive response from them. So, what is implemented in F15 precisely? /run is now a tmpfs, and /var/run is bind mounted to it. /var/lock is bind mounted to /run/lock. Applications can use /run the same way as /var/run. Since the latter is FHS/LSB most apps should just use the latter, only early boot stuff should use /run, for now. The folks who have packages where this applies already have been informed. If you haven't heard from any of us, then this doesn't apply to you. So, what's the benefit of this again? - There's only one tmpfs used, backing /run, /var/lock and /var/run, reducing a bit the ever increasing amount of tmpfs' used on a default system. - All runtime data at the same place. systemd's, udev's, dracut's data are all beneath /run and /var/run now. Easily discoverable to the admin. For the first time you can see the data all these important tools used on your system store just like any other by doing ls /var/run. - Nothing is hidden anymore. The admin can see everything beneath /var/run and /run, no hidden dot-files anymore. - We have standardized the early-runtime-dir solution across all major distributions - The people involved feel much better since they don't have to misuse /dev anymore - The lifecycle properties of directories are clear from the top-level directory name. Lifecycle properties do no longer change the further you go down your tree. i.e. /var is persistant runtime data and /run is volatile runtime data, and /etc is persistant system config data, and so on. The ugliness that /var/run abd /var/lock had completely different liftime guarantees than /var where they both reside in is gone. So, this is what is implemented for F15 now. For F16 we will make a minor change on top of this: /var/run and /var/lock will become symlinks to /run (resp /run/lock), so that we don't
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation FHS has 7 years, must be updated. = release blocker. Flame! :D -- Best regards, Michal http://eventhorizon.pl/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote: 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation FHS has 7 years, must be updated. = release blocker. Flame! :D No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 14:04, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation How so? FHS doesn't specify /selinux either. Or the old /cgroup. Or even /sys. = release blocker. I love you, too. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:04 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. It doesn't seem to break anything so even applications which use the old ugly ways will still work in F15, so why this would be a blocker? Or am I missing something? J. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Ralf Corsepius wote: It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. who cares ? also /cgroup /selinux /sys /debug ... FHS is frozen since seven years ago. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 05:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it.Besides, FHS violations do not qualify as release blockers at all. At best, this is a dramatic overreaction and wishful thinking. If we have consensus between major distributions, that is the living standard compared to a old stale and unmaintained document. Anyway, thanks Lennart for taking the time to explain the change. It makes documentation much easier. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: On 03/30/2011 05:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it.Besides, FHS violations do not qualify as release blockers at all. At best, this is a dramatic overreaction and wishful thinking. If we have consensus between major distributions, that is the living standard compared to a old stale and unmaintained document. Anyway, thanks Lennart for taking the time to explain the change. It makes documentation much easier. Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: The actual code changes we needed to implement this scheme were trivial (basically, just bind mount /var/run and /var/lock instead of mounting two new tmpfs' to them.), which is why we opted to do this so late in the F15 cycle. However, the political implications are much bigger I guess, so let's see what a fantastic flamewar we can start with this on fedora-devel now. Flame away! No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides. It is outside of the FHS, but is in the _spirit_ of it, and would fit into an updated release of the standard, if there ever were one. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wednesday, March 30, 2011 01:54:30 PM Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. Heya and thanks :) For example /dev/ has been blocked in KDirWatch so it made impossible to use it for systemd password agent (it's now patches but I think we should revert) and other /dev/.*. It really does not belong there. Jaroslav Lennart -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Lennart Poettering wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. *Applications* -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 06:00 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. Added to the release notes https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Boot_Beat#.2Frun_directory Tweak or change as necessary. Thanks. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
This *is* FHS compliant [was Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?]
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 02:30:40PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. More than that, it's explicitly allowed. So we're good. See: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. [...] Distributions should not create new directories in the root hierarchy without extremely careful consideration of the consequences including for application portability. We're a distribution. And it's clear that the careful consideration has been done -- including the requisite dealing with application portability. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 01:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote: 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation FHS has 7 years, must be updated. = release blocker. Flame! :D No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form. If strict FHS compliance was a release criteria it's hard to see how we'd have made it to F15 in the first place. I also don't think you can really justify the massive qualifier in your assertion. The actual text of the (7 year old) FHS has this to say: Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. Rationale There are several reasons why creating a new subdirectory of the root filesystem is prohibited: • It demands space on a root partition which the system administrator may want kept small and simple for either performance or security reasons. • It evades whatever discipline the system administrator may have set up for distributing standard file hierarchies across mountable volumes. Distributions should not create new directories in the root hierarchy without extremely careful consideration of the consequences including for application portability. I'll agree that the standard's wording isn't as clear as it might be (don't you just love 'em?) but the last paragraph certainly seems to allow distributions to add subdirectories to the root directory with extremely careful consideration of the consequences. I find it interesting that you consider a breach of the root directory pollution rule sufficiently serious to be a release blocker and yet you have apparently remained silent as all the abuses of the /dev directory that Lennart pointed out were merged in previous releases. Why is that those FHS violations are OK but adding a directory to / (in an obvious effort to address one of the shortcomings of the existing standard) is the end of the world as we know it? No standard is or even should be carved in stone for all eternity. Regards, Bryn. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Le Mer 30 mars 2011 14:04, Ralf Corsepius a écrit : On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. The FHS is about having major distros agree about file locations, and documenting the result. Which seems to be exactly what happened here. Also the FHS is about progressively deprecating old quirks inherited from complex *nix history (such as /usr/X11), and trying to converge on a simpler consistent design. Again, this is exactly what happened. Thank you very much Lennart for continuing the filesystem cleanup the FHS initated but stopped doing years ago. Please make the effort to get the changes published in a new FHS revision. It does not matter for hardcore ditribution people, but it matters a lot for app people and ISVs. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 14:11 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote: 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation FHS has 7 years, must be updated. = release blocker. Flame! :D No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form. I have to applaud, you sent two emails and already go 11 reactions :) Nice flame-war start ! Pierre -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Le Mer 30 mars 2011 14:30, Lennart Poettering a écrit : Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. % Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. Tip Rationale There are several reasons why creating a new subdirectory of the root filesystem is prohibited: It demands space on a root partition which the system administrator may want kept small and simple for either performance or security reasons. It evades whatever discipline the system administrator may have set up for distributing standard file hierarchies across mountable volumes. Distributions should not create new directories in the root hierarchy without extremely careful consideration of the consequences including for application portability. % Which is why, while I find this change generally positive, it really needs an FHS update (might be a good occasion to remove old directory definitions which have finally been deprecated those past years, and resolve /var/opt vs /srv differences) Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote: The FHS is about having major distros agree about file locations, and documenting the result. Which seems to be exactly what happened here. Well, documentation on a mailing list is fine for F15, but it really doesn't count long-term. If the major distros have agreed on changing the standard layout (however the standard it is named), they should also agree on a canonical documentation. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:42 PM, Bryn M. Reeves wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:10 PM, Michał Piotrowski wrote: 2011/3/30 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation FHS has 7 years, must be updated. = release blocker. Flame! :D No, it's a no-go/no-way in most verbose form. If strict FHS compliance was a release criteria it's hard to see how we'd have made it to F15 in the first place. Well, the reasons why Fedora isn't FHS compliant to me are obvious. I also don't think you can really justify the massive qualifier in your assertion. The actual text of the (7 year old) FHS has this to say: 7 year old doesn't mean obsolete and doesn't mean to adopt any crack ridden idea somebody comes up with. Any ordinary Fedora contributor with a similar proposal would have been sent to hell. I find it interesting that you consider a breach of the root directory pollution rule sufficiently serious to be a release blocker Correct. Apart of this, it's wy too late in the release process to implement this change for F15, IMNSHO. and yet you have apparently remained silent as all the abuses of the /dev directory that Lennart pointed out were merged in previous releases. I have repeatedly spoken up - e.g. wrt. cgroup. Why is that those FHS violations are OK but adding a directory to / (in an obvious effort to address one of the shortcomings of the existing standard) is the end of the world as we know it? No standard is or even should be carved in stone for all eternity. Right, but devs should ignore it or feel tempted to rape such a standard. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 08:36:38AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides. It is outside of the FHS, but is in the _spirit_ of it, and would fit into an updated release of the standard, if there ever were one. Ack. A sensible and long-overdue attempt to address one of the short-comings of the standard. If the FHS isn't updated to reflect this, then it's only making itself less relevant. (lvm2 now gains a proper new location for /etc/lvm/cache.) Alasdair -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: The actual code changes we needed to implement this scheme were trivial (basically, just bind mount /var/run and /var/lock instead of mounting two new tmpfs' to them.), which is why we opted to do this so late in the F15 cycle. However, the political implications are much bigger I guess, so let's see what a fantastic flamewar we can start with this on fedora-devel now. Flame away! No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides. I could not disagree more. It is outside of the FHS, It's a clear violation of the FHS. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 30.03.2011 15:05, schrieb Ralf Corsepius: No flames from me. This is a sensible, thought-through change with cross-distro buy-in and no major downsides. I could not disagree more. without any argument? if all distributions agree with it where exactly do you have a problem? After 7 years FHS should be updated to reflect existing reality and FHS should not wait another 5 years for some changes in theory and expect that AFTER this new definition the work will start where is your argument other than i do not find the folder in FHS? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 02:08 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Fedora is a distribution, not an application. You neatly elided the following paragraph that explicitly grants distributions the right to do this with careful consideration. Well done. Regards, Bryn. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: It is outside of the FHS, It's a clear violation of the FHS. Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised way. Alasdair -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such -- Russ herrold -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Russ herrold wrote: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such like this? Reported: 2004-01-29 http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 15:03, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: I also don't think you can really justify the massive qualifier in your assertion. The actual text of the (7 year old) FHS has this to say: 7 year old doesn't mean obsolete and doesn't mean to adopt any crack ridden idea somebody comes up with. Thanks for implying we were addicted to crack. It really underlines your arguments. Any ordinary Fedora contributor with a similar proposal would have been sent to hell. Uh? What are you implying here? Note that I myself was actually leaning towards a different solution for a long time, just so I don't have to deal with negative people like you. But other folks were championing for /run (especially from Debian), and they convinced me and the others with stakes in this, and so we implemented this. This is how these things usually work: everybody can make suggestions, and the best one which convinced the key people who can implement something like this wins in the end. In this case the idea was not mine. So really no need to imply my humble ideas were in any way special here or had more weight than anybody else's, since well, this one wasn't even mine. No standard is or even should be carved in stone for all eternity. Right, but devs should ignore it or feel tempted to rape such a standard. Wow, crack addicted rapists. Die Wahl Deiner Worte adelt wahrlich Deine Gedanken! Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:54 AM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: With this upload Fedora and Suse have already adopted /run now. Debian folks will suggest this for their coming release. Ubuntu has agreed with introducing /run as well. Bravo! m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I think, for the first time in Fedora history, I agree with Lennart. After reading the above reference, this does not seem like an FHS violation. Even if it is, it is the FHS that needs to be updated. Orcan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wednesday, March 30, 2011 04:05:27 PM Orcan Ogetbil wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 15:08, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 18:04, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Also, can somebody point me to the place where the FHS would say no other directories below / are allowed? I can't find that. And hence this change is perfectly FHS compliant. It's in the preface of the root file system section: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEROOTFILESYSTEM cite Applications must never create or require special files or subdirectories in the root directory. Other locations in the FHS hierarchy provide more than enough flexibility for any package. /cite Well, we are not an application, are we? I think, for the first time in Fedora history, I agree with Lennart. +1, me too :))) R. After reading the above reference, this does not seem like an FHS violation. Even if it is, it is the FHS that needs to be updated. Orcan -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 07:00 PM, R P Herrold wrote: This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=17060262forum_id=3128 http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101 What have you or anyone else in FHS done about it? Who all are responsible What recent queries were answered? When was FHS last updated? Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 19:56, Rahul Sundaram (methe...@gmail.com) wrote: On 03/30/2011 07:00 PM, R P Herrold wrote: This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=17060262forum_id=3128 http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101 What have you or anyone else in FHS done about it? Who all are responsible What recent queries were answered? When was FHS last updated? Yupp, my impression too is that FHS is pretty much dead. On a more constructive note however I have now filed this bug asking for updating of the FHS regarding /run: http://bugs.freestandards.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718 Let's see if the FHS comes back from the dead! Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: SNIP So, this is what is implemented for F15 now. For F16 we will make a minor change on top of this: /var/run and /var/lock will become symlinks to /run (resp /run/lock), so that we don't have to use bind mounts anymore which are not the most beautiful thing to use by default, and confusing to the admin. Due to the implications of symlinks and RPM we didn't want to make that change in F15. The actual code changes we needed to implement this scheme were trivial (basically, just bind mount /var/run and /var/lock instead of mounting two new tmpfs' to them.), which is why we opted to do this so late in the F15 cycle. However, the political implications are much bigger I guess, so let's see what a fantastic flamewar we can start with this on fedora-devel now. Flame away! SNIP I would like to first say that I think this is a great idea and a solid solution to the problem at hand. I would like, however, to bring up a point of approach. This appears to be a rather heavy handed technical problem that has been solved, decided upon, and declared to be how it is and how it will be for Fedora 15. I am perfectly fine with this from the point of the solution because I agree with the sentiments expressed. Now, I have to ask: Was FESCo involved in this decision? and if so, where is the Trac ticket, or mention in the meeting minutes? Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. -AdamM -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 09:35, Adam Miller (maxamill...@fedoraproject.org) wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, the technical change is actually minimal, and this is mostly a contract between dracut, systemd, udev, and very few other low-level packages. The real technical changes will come when we make /var/run a symlink, since that probably needs some changes with a wider impact on other packages. That is planned for F16 and we'll require broader acceptance. For that I will file a feature page. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 13:54, Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) wrote: With this upload Fedora and Suse have already adopted /run now. Debian folks will suggest this for their coming release. Ubuntu has agreed with introducing /run as well. I guess I need to clarify this. Ubuntu actually hasn't agreed on anything. Scott Remnant, the maintainer of Upstart wants /run. Scott does not work for Canonical anymore, but he's still involved Ubuntu, and Ubuntu uses Upstart where /run needs to be created. So, I'd like to corect my self: Ubuntu has agreed to To me it appears that they will do it. Sorry for the confusion. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 09:35, Adam Miller (maxamill...@fedoraproject.org) wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, the technical change is actually minimal, and this is mostly a contract between dracut, systemd, udev, and very few other low-level packages. Actually, there is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Filesystem_Layout , which restricts even these very few low-level packages. Yes, the best solution is most likely to change the packaging guidelines, at least until FHS is updated - but that's something that needs to be done at the very latest at the same time that the packages are updated. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. On behalf of everyone at anaconda, thanks for fixing something we've all long-since hated. - Chris -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 30.03.2011 13:54, schrieb Lennart Poettering: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. dracut and udev versions are here: udev-167-1.fc15 : https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/udev-167-1.fc15 dracut-009-3.fc15: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/dracut-009-3.fc15 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 14:16 +0200, Jiri Moskovcak wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:04 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 01:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, It's a massive FHS violation = release blocker. It doesn't seem to break anything so even applications which use the old ugly ways will still work in F15, so why this would be a blocker? Or am I missing something? Right. As far as I'm aware, FHS is a _required minimum_ - we must have all the FHS directories. It's not a _maximum_ - it doesn't preclude the existence / use of other directories. FHS preamble states: We do this by: ... Specifying the minimum files and directories required, and the section on the Root Filesystem states: Distributions should not create new directories in the root hierarchy without extremely careful consideration of the consequences including for application portability. But it specifically does not _preclude_ distributions from creating new directories in the root hierarchy. It just says there should be careful consideration of the consequences. From what I can see, that is certainly the case here, and given the summary provided by Lennart, there should be no consequences for application portability. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. FWIW, libexec can be argued not to be a violation of the current FHS, because the FHS allows suffixed lib* for multilib purposes, and libexec can be argued to be the multilibbed libdir with the suffix exec, designed for the architecture native ELF executables, as opposed to shared libraries. Of course that's not the intent of the specification as written, but there's nothing in the letter of the FHS which would forbid this interpretation. :-) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:24:42AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. SNIP So we should disband FESCo and just let everyone commit whatever changes they want without oversight or community inclusion and just hope it builds and runs in the end? I can't stress this enough, I am not against this change and am actually in support of it. I am also a big fan of systemd and want to express my gratitude to those involved in all the work being done to make it a reality. I am, however, a little concerned with the precedence it is either creating or following in the path of. -AdamM -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 10:24 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Adam Miller maxamill...@fedoraproject.org wrote: however, a little concerned with the precedence it is either creating or following in the path of. This has behind is something IMHO bigger than FESCo: the agreement of key maintainers across distros. That's hard enough to pull -- and it's a feat that it's been done. It's a great precedent if you ask me! I am sure other people will request similar things in other distros -- I hope those are disregarded. All the technical steering committees of the major distros might one day agree -- but I like to see change in my lifetime. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 12:49 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:24:42AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. SNIP So we should disband FESCo and just let everyone commit whatever changes they want without oversight or community inclusion and just hope it builds and runs in the end? I can't stress this enough, I am not against this change and am actually in support of it. I am also a big fan of systemd and want to express my gratitude to those involved in all the work being done to make it a reality. I am, however, a little concerned with the precedence it is either creating or following in the path of. No, not really. I'm just pointing out that this isn't a _new_ problem, and it should probably be addressed on a wider scale than just squelching this particular change because it hasn't jumped through the (arguably) appropriate hoops. (I think Lennart's argument that in technical terms it's not actually a very big change has merit, too, given that we're not symlinking /var/run yet.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 10:55 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 03/30/2011 10:24 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 11:31 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 10:55 -0700, John Reiser wrote: Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? More importantly, the feature process has not been mandatory for major changes. So it is not a evasion. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 07:54 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, though presumably people consider this a bigger political change, so I guess this deserves an explanation: snip The actual code changes we needed to implement this scheme were trivial (basically, just bind mount /var/run and /var/lock instead of mounting two new tmpfs' to them.), which is why we opted to do this so late in the F15 cycle. However, the political implications are much bigger I guess, so let's see what a fantastic flamewar we can start with this on fedora-devel now. Flame away! Lennart Well, installed the new systemd, udev and dracut and rebooted several times and rebuit the initramfs. Same ol' system (except for populated /run dir), no smoke, no noises, no howling ghosts, etc. Nice quiet change. Now to enjoy the flame war, it was kind of quiet on the fedora front. -- Regards, OldFart -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 03/30/2011 11:31 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 10:55 -0700, John Reiser wrote: Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? More importantly, the feature process has not been mandatory for major changes. So it is not a evasion. Right, that's a better way of putting it. There's no need to get involved in a bunfight over specific examples - the point is that we have no explicit requirement that changes follow the feature process. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/30/2011 11:19 PM, Adam Miller wrote: So we should disband FESCo and just let everyone commit whatever changes they want without oversight or community inclusion and just hope it builds and runs in the end? Yes, I am sure that is the best course of action. Can you cut out the needless rhetoric in response and focus on a sensible discussion? FESCo has a role to play but to what extend it should manage changes is still a open question. If the impact is big, I can very well understand the need for it but this isn't a material change. Doesn't really affect applications because of the bind mounting. I would like to hear from you a good explanation on why FESCo should manage this change. Perhaps FPC, not FESCo. Since you asked, here is an explanation. FHS does not require every RPM package to not add arbitrary directories, but Fedora packaging guidelines do. We have a packaging standard. This change violates that packaging standard, so there are three possibilities: 1) The change is contrary to the intention of Fedora's technical governing body and should be reverted. 2) Fedora's technical governing body agrees and the standard should be amended. 3) The standard is irrelevant and should be dropped to make life easier for everybody. Accepting none of the above as a reasonable course of action would mean that we should actually do 3). (End of explanation.) I suppose Fedora packaging guidelines have this requirement to prevent any other group of packagers, to agree on any directory they want, say /tcl, /tetris-like-games or /dev/autoexec.bat.d. And finally, 2) would have been by far the easiest way to go here - bring this up to FPC, which would presumably say Sure, no problem, amend the guidelines, send a summary mail to fedora-devel (that, historically, very few people react to). Process is followed, change is implemented, this discussion never starts (or if it does, this follows packaging guidelines and you are out of date shuts it down again). Sure, it takes one more week. Are we really in such a rush? Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 11:01 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 10:55 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 03/30/2011 10:24 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? Giving specific examples, instead of only claiming lots of times, will help focus the discussion towards what really matters. Terms with differing interpretations tend to feed flame wars. If not even one specific case can be named from memory then lots of times is doubtful. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 11:16 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 03/30/2011 11:01 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 10:55 -0700, John Reiser wrote: On 03/30/2011 10:24 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? Giving specific examples, instead of only claiming lots of times, will help focus the discussion towards what really matters. Terms with differing interpretations tend to feed flame wars. If not even one specific case can be named from memory then lots of times is doubtful. Please see the better response Rahul gave, and consider this sub-thread dead =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 20:16 +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: FHS does not require every RPM package to not add arbitrary directories, but Fedora packaging guidelines do. We have a packaging standard. This change violates that packaging standard, so there are three possibilities: Can you cite this guideline? All I can find is a requirement that Fedora packages must follow the FHS - which is a somewhat vague requirement, and doesn't seem to be clarified. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Filesystem_Layout -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 30.03.2011 20:01, schrieb Adam Williamson: Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I have better things to do than spend my morning looking through old changelogs and freeze dates, thanks. Are you really suggesting it's never happened? if you have no example in mind from what you are speaking be quiet there was work done to get not only fedora in the boat and instead be happy that necessary changes are discussed in a wider range than fedora-only you have not more to say as i have better things to do and whine about to few political talk about technical needs? so please do the better things instead flaming here about a single folder which introducing is not political correct enough for your eyes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 20:16 +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: FHS does not require every RPM package to not add arbitrary directories, but Fedora packaging guidelines do. We have a packaging standard. This change violates that packaging standard, so there are three possibilities: Can you cite this guideline? All I can find is a requirement that Fedora packages must follow the FHS - which is a somewhat vague requirement, and doesn't seem to be clarified. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Filesystem_Layout What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? (Yes, this apparently requires that the data should be in /var/run, and the data really can't be there. Still, that's a reason to fix the packaging standard, not to ignore it.) Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/31/2011 12:00 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: so please do the better things instead flaming here about a single folder which introducing is not political correct enough for your eyes Pretty sure you completely misunderstood Adam Williamson. He has not flamed anybody. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/31/2011 12:01 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? But FHS permits this change to be done by distributions. All it says is that it should be carefully considered. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/31/2011 12:01 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? But FHS permits this change to be done by distributions. All it says is that it should be carefully considered. Sure, and the distribution in question does such changes - via its packaging guidelines. See /usr/libexec just below in the guidelines. A few minutes ago the FESCo meeting report has just recorded a vote about https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/577 ; AFAICT the process really doesn't hurt. Yes, the /var change is good, but good documentation (ideally-cross distro, but at least for Fedora) is important. There will surely be more packages that need to use /run in a few years. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Am 30.03.2011 20:44, schrieb Rahul Sundaram: On 03/31/2011 12:01 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? But FHS permits this change to be done by distributions. All it says is that it should be carefully considered The current version is 2.3. It was announced on January 29, 2004 first it is a MINIMUM-STANDARD NOT A MAXIMUM and second it is seven years old, 2004 upstart, systemd and many many commonly accepted subsystems did not exist and they should awake from dead signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Thu, 2011-03-31 at 00:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 03/31/2011 12:01 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? But FHS permits this change to be done by distributions. All it says is that it should be carefully considered. Right. Some of the language on the packaging guidelines page seems to imply a belief that 'follow the FHS' means 'place all data in directories explicitly listed in the FHS', but the FHS itself doesn't require that. Hence my suggestion that requirement is vague. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/31/2011 12:09 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: Sure, and the distribution in question does such changes - via its packaging guidelines. It might be obvious to you that this change requires a packaging guideline but that requirement is not well documented and is not mandated by what you are quoting. If you want it be mandatory, say so more explicitly in the packaging guidelines and then you can ask maintainers to follow it. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
John Reiser wrote: Please give specific examples that previously evaded the 'feature' process. I'm a little fuzzy on the timelines of these changes so I might be one release off, but here's two examples. -Fedora 10 changed curl from using openssl to nss. -Fedora 14 changed openldap from using openssl to nss. Both times I had software I use break and only figured it out when I was told the fix was to nss. IMHO those two changes are rather large as they introduce different behavior across a broad range of software. They have had negative effects in my usage cases[1][2] and took months to resolve. The libjpeg to libjpeg-turbo was a feature so it is not unreasonable to expect similar changes to be considered a feature. [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500180 [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=636956 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
How do changes to the FHS happen ? [was Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?]
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:30 -0400, R P Herrold wrote: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such How do changes to the FHS actually happen ? All I can find is the names of the three past editors of the standard, and a mailing list that seems to be overrun by spam. There doesn't seem to be any body/group that meets regularly to resolve issues and work towards an FHS update. Maybe it is time to set up such a group, e.g., by letting each distro put one representative forward that will discuss and vote on FHS changes on that distro's behalf. I think the group that Lennart worked with is a very encouraging sign that something like this is possible. David -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How do changes to the FHS happen ? [was Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?]
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 8:41 PM, David Lutterkort lut...@redhat.com wrote: How do changes to the FHS actually happen ? All I can find is the names of the three past editors of the standard, and a mailing list that seems to be overrun by spam. There doesn't seem to be any body/group that meets regularly to resolve issues and work towards an FHS update. Maybe it is time to set up such a group, e.g., by letting each distro put one representative forward that will discuss and vote on FHS changes on that distro's behalf. I think the group that Lennart worked with is a very encouraging sign that something like this is possible. Just for completeness can I ask if the current info at http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/14/html/Storage_Administration_Guide/s1-filesystem-fhs.html and http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ are in fact the latest? If not can someone point to the source of the most current version of the info? Thanks -- mike c -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 05:02:43PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 30.03.11 13:54, Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) wrote: With this upload Fedora and Suse have already adopted /run now. Debian folks will suggest this for their coming release. Ubuntu has agreed with introducing /run as well. I guess I need to clarify this. Ubuntu actually hasn't agreed on anything. Scott Remnant, the maintainer of Upstart wants /run. Scott does not work for Canonical anymore, but he's still involved Ubuntu, and Ubuntu uses Upstart where /run needs to be created. So, I'd like to corect my self: Ubuntu has agreed to To me it appears that they will do it. If you need somebody who works on Ubuntu for Canonical to support this, I'm happy to be such a person. Supporting /var/run reliably in early boot has long been an irritant and requires at least one hack in our installer, and while /dev/.initramfs is functional it isn't exactly pretty. Certainly, we should be conservative when introducing new top-level directories, but not to the point of obstinacy in the face of genuine problems. /run makes sense, it already has quite widespread agreement, it feels Unixy, and migration will be straightforward with the aid of a few symlinks. I should probably not try to cram this into Ubuntu 11.04 now, but I'm happy to make this happen in Ubuntu 11.10. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
2011/3/30 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please do not try to kill evolution through the bureaucracy. Lennart fixed a long standing issue here and he did it in such a way that tree other major distributions accepted his solution. He also fixed a long standing issues with Linux init system. This is not a feature - this is evolution. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Best regards, Michal http://eventhorizon.pl/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
2011/3/30 Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com: 2011/3/30 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please do not try to kill evolution through the bureaucracy. Lennart fixed a long standing issue here and he did it in such a way that tree other major distributions accepted his solution. He also fixed a long standing issues with Linux init system. This is not a feature - this is evolution. Well we are on f-d-l and this is a change ... we all know what this evil combination causes ;) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
W dniu 30 marca 2011 22:30 użytkownik drago01 drag...@gmail.com napisał: 2011/3/30 Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com: 2011/3/30 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please do not try to kill evolution through the bureaucracy. Lennart fixed a long standing issue here and he did it in such a way that tree other major distributions accepted his solution. He also fixed a long standing issues with Linux init system. This is not a feature - this is evolution. Well we are on f-d-l and this is a change ... we all know what this evil combination causes ;) First, people are wondering if this change is compatible with some obsolete specification, next people are wondering if this change is compatible with distribution feature process. I repeat again, this is not a feature this is evolution. Lennart uses a big hammer here, but from a technical POV these changes makes sense. -- Best regards, Michal http://eventhorizon.pl/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Once upon a time, Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com said: First, people are wondering if this change is compatible with some obsolete specification, next people are wondering if this change is compatible with distribution feature process. I repeat again, this is not a feature this is evolution. Lennart uses a big hammer here, but from a technical POV these changes makes sense. Please stop calling FHS obsolete, at least as long as the Fedora packaging guidelines say it should be followed. I think the problem here is how this was done, not as much what was done. Would it have been so much trouble to have discussed this in advance? The FHS allows dsitros to add additional top-level directories, but this was done by developers of a package, without any distro discussion. We're well past F15 Alpha and almost to Beta; IMHO a change like this should have been made sooner (or wait until next release). There may be things that the systemd developers didn't think about (what about SELinux policy for example; I haven't seen that mentioned). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/30/2011 04:59 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com said: First, people are wondering if this change is compatible with some obsolete specification, next people are wondering if this change is compatible with distribution feature process. I repeat again, this is not a feature this is evolution. Lennart uses a big hammer here, but from a technical POV these changes makes sense. Please stop calling FHS obsolete, at least as long as the Fedora packaging guidelines say it should be followed. I think the problem here is how this was done, not as much what was done. Would it have been so much trouble to have discussed this in advance? The FHS allows dsitros to add additional top-level directories, but this was done by developers of a package, without any distro discussion. We're well past F15 Alpha and almost to Beta; IMHO a change like this should have been made sooner (or wait until next release). There may be things that the systemd developers didn't think about (what about SELinux policy for example; I haven't seen that mentioned). We are scrambling to get the policies updated, but it would have been nice to have more time. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2TmlkACgkQrlYvE4MpobPFqwCdGGHiYGn00/i/4dAzFO5O0GcF lNsAoLPaa5prsHq/rWNWkDCAZKU66LVQ =WSRi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 22:25 +0200, Michał Piotrowski wrote: 2011/3/30 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:35 -0500, Adam Miller wrote: Again, I'm not against that this is being done, but I would like to see everyone equally follow suit on the way things are traditionally done in Fedora land. Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. We have a features process with lots of bureaucracy and FESCo involvement and so on. What we don't have is any clear _enforcement_ of that process; there's no workable system that evaluates changes and requires sufficiently significant changes to be submitted as features. It's perfectly possible, and has been done lots of times, to simply go ahead and commit significant changes that _could_ have been 'features', not submit them as features, and happily bypass the entire 'feature' process with all its bureaucracy. /run would certainly not be close to being the first time this has happened. Please do not try to kill evolution through the bureaucracy. Lennart fixed a long standing issue here and he did it in such a way that tree other major distributions accepted his solution. He also fixed a long standing issues with Linux init system. This is not a feature - this is evolution. I'm not trying to, my post doesn't say anything like that. Adam Miller suggested that the change should be required to go through the feature process, I pointed out that we don't actually have any formal requirement for this (we don't define anywhere exactly what changes must go through the feature process), and suggested that changes of similar impact have bypassed the feature process before. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 07:54 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. It's a fairly minor technical change, though presumably people consider this a bigger political change, so I guess this deserves an explanation: For quite a while programs involved with early boot used to place runtime data in /dev under numerous hidden dot directories. /dev/.udev was the first one, but over time this grew to at least /dev/.mdadm, /dev/.systemd, /dev/.mount, dracut, initscripts and more tools. (Other distros have even more) The reason they used directories there is that /dev was known to be a tmpfs and available from the first instant the machine was booted. /var/run otoh is only available very late at boot, since /var might reside on a separate file system. Just for some perspective, before /dev/.udev we had /dev/.dhclient-leases and before even that we had /initrd for quite some time. There's nothing new under the sun. -- Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On 03/30/2011 03:20 PM, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: It is outside of the FHS, It's a clear violation of the FHS. Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised way. How about /var/run ?? What would be wrong with it? Or /var/lib/systemd ?? This would open up all liberties for systemd, what ever idea it may come up with in future. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How do changes to the FHS happen ? [was Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?]
David Lutterkort wrote: How do changes to the FHS actually happen ? see: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=6704952 All I can find is the names of the three past editors of the standard, and a mailing list that seems to be overrun by spam. Someone should ask matti or davem to setup a new ml on vger. Maybe it is time to set up such a group, e.g., by letting each distro put one representative forward that will discuss and vote on FHS changes on that distro's behalf. I think the group that Lennart worked with is a very encouraging sign that something like this is possible. Distributions, and others companies interested in LiNUX/*BSD/UN*X. FHS is not only for LiNUX. -- «Allá muevan feroz guerra, ciegos reyes por un palmo más de tierra; que yo aquí tengo por mío cuanto abarca el mar bravío, a quien nadie impuso leyes. Y no hay playa, sea cualquiera, ni bandera de esplendor, que no sienta mi derecho y dé pecho a mi valor.» -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:03:22PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Right, but devs should ignore it or feel tempted to rape such a standard. Use of the word rape in this context has entirely inappropriate connotations. Please don't use it in this way. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said: How about /var/run ?? What would be wrong with it? I believe the need is for something guaranteed to be on the root filesystem, and having a separate /var is still valid. I'm not sure why this doesn't go under /etc, but if I were king, the proliferation of kernel filesystems (proc, sys, cgroup, selinux, etc.) would be under /kernel, so maybe that's just me. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 15:39 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 03:20 PM, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: It is outside of the FHS, It's a clear violation of the FHS. Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised way. How about /var/run ?? What would be wrong with it? That's addressed in the initial proposal. It's a subdir of /var, which doesn't get mounted early enough. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 15:39, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote: On 03/30/2011 03:20 PM, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 03:05:35PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 03/30/2011 02:36 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: It is outside of the FHS, It's a clear violation of the FHS. Indeed, but there really is no suitable FHS-compliant location for files of these types, so we had no choice but to violate the standard up to now: nothing has changed in this respect. As I see things, the proposal is just to violate it in a much cleaner, co-ordinated and standardised way. How about /var/run ?? You didn't even bother to read my mail, did you? /var is mounted very late at boot, after fsck, and so on. We need something we can write during early boot, in fact even vom initrd. Hence /var/run is not suitable. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 16:24, Chris Adams (cmad...@hiwaay.net) wrote: Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said: How about /var/run ?? What would be wrong with it? I believe the need is for something guaranteed to be on the root filesystem, and having a separate /var is still valid. I'm not sure why this doesn't go under /etc, but if I were king, the proliferation of kernel filesystems (proc, sys, cgroup, selinux, etc.) would be under /kernel, so maybe that's just me. /etc is static configuration data. /run is volatile runtime data. /etc is read-only during boot. /run is writable all the way. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: How do changes to the FHS happen ? [was Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?]
On Wed, 30.03.11 12:41, David Lutterkort (lut...@redhat.com) wrote: On Wed, 2011-03-30 at 09:30 -0400, R P Herrold wrote: On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are many directories already in Fedora that are not defined by FHS and even though we have asked them to update it (libexec, /selinux /sys etc), there is noone maintaining it. This is stunningly untrue. I've worked for years in the fields of LSB, FHS and LANANA to make sure there are traceable paths for such requests. Post the URLs to your bugs in the LSB / LF tracker if you assert you have done such How do changes to the FHS actually happen ? All I can find is the names of the three past editors of the standard, and a mailing list that seems to be overrun by spam. There doesn't seem to be any body/group that meets regularly to resolve issues and work towards an FHS update. I wonder if the LSB folks feel responsible for this. Not that I was a big fan of the LSB work (making up standards out of thin air and stuff), but there's at least somebody commited to standards. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, 30.03.11 21:08, Colin Watson (cjwat...@ubuntu.com) wrote: So, I'd like to correct myself: Ubuntu has agreed to To me it appears that they will do it. If you need somebody who works on Ubuntu for Canonical to support this, I'm happy to be such a person. Supporting /var/run reliably in early boot has long been an irritant and requires at least one hack in our installer, and while /dev/.initramfs is functional it isn't exactly pretty. Certainly, we should be conservative when introducing new top-level directories, but not to the point of obstinacy in the face of genuine problems. /run makes sense, it already has quite widespread agreement, it feels Unixy, and migration will be straightforward with the aid of a few symlinks. I should probably not try to cram this into Ubuntu 11.04 now, but I'm happy to make this happen in Ubuntu 11.10. Perfect, that's great news! Anything from Ubuntu's side you'd still like to see changed in this scheme? If you have a longer devel cycle left for 11.10 you could probably even go directly for symlinks in /var/run and /var/lock, how we plan it for F16, instead of just bind mounting them like we do it for F15. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said: /etc is static configuration data. There are a number of things under /etc that are not static configuration data. /etc is read-only during boot. /run is writable all the way. /etc/run could be too. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:42:11AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2011-03-31 at 00:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 03/31/2011 12:01 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: What more would you want? Fedora packages must follow the FHS. 'Must follow' means that if you don't follow it you violate it? But FHS permits this change to be done by distributions. All it says is that it should be carefully considered. Right. Some of the language on the packaging guidelines page seems to imply a belief that 'follow the FHS' means 'place all data in directories explicitly listed in the FHS', but the FHS itself doesn't require that. Hence my suggestion that requirement is vague. If the FHS doesn't require that then we need to add that to our guidelines. Part of the purpose of the FHS is defeated if packages within a distribution (and indeed, third party packages that aren't packaged by a distribution) do not place their files inside of the hierachies that are specified. If the new directories are not categorized properly, *all* of the purposes of the FHS can be defeated (for instance, if apache designated its own toplevel directory the FHS goals of separating files needing backup from those that are reinstallable from a package and separating files that are read-only from those that need to be written to would be defeated.) The intent of the Fedora Packaging Guidelines, at least, is that Fedora packages don't create extra directories and store things in them. Creating extra directories should not be done without approval. I've opened a FPC ticket to both make that explicit and to add /run as an approved directory: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/75 -Toshio pgp7gueKhOnk4.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:54 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: Heya, I just uploaded a new version of systemd into F15, which establishes a directory /run in the root directory. Most likely you'll sooner or later stumble over it, so here's an explanation what this is and why this is. Sounds like a decent, workable solution. Thanks! -c -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: What's this /run directory doing on my system and where does it come from?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: I think the problem here is how this was done, not as much what was done. Would it have been so much trouble to have discussed this in advance? ... it is way more efficient to beg forgiveness for picking a colour for a bikeshed than soliciting everyone's opinion ... especially when one is never planning to beg forgiveness. ;] /Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
