Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
You can transfers files between systems, (in the absence of an XS server), using a light weight web server such as boa To install boa on the XO: su - yum install boa If you want more details on how to configure boa let me know and I will post the instructions. I use boa to pull log files off my XO. Similarly you get get files off a MS Windows system using IIS. Another email in this thread mentions the scripts for copying files to and form the Sugar Journal. /Robert H. On Oct 10, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Deniz Kural wrote: I see how my email wasn't so nice. Apologies for increasing the animosity level. I was merely trying show how USB transfer from: 1) Xo to Xo 2) Other platform to Xo could be useful. Marco, I'm glad to have provoked a laugh, I was indeed joking. I don't even know you. I agree with Martin -- I thought he didn't write anything offensive. I will follow your advice, Edward, Tomeu. So to stay on topic, 1) I understand that there is in fact an easy way to transfer files between XOs with a USB (which I believe is necessary per the conditions in Mongolia - people living in mobile yurts, even in the largest city and the capital etc. as explained). In the future, if one day the network is universal, and the mesh works etc. I can see why we wouldn't need it. 2) I understand that sugar might not have been intended to work with other OS's, and should be thought of as an educational tool meant for children instead of a general all-purpose laptop computer. But I also think, since this is a significant investment for many people, referring to my original example of a teacher typing up a reading (from a book let's say, or a handout) on a regular computer s/he already has back home, and being able to transfer files back and forth on an Xo so s/he can distribute it to his/her students. Thus, to fulfill its educational mission, Sugar cannot be a closed box. Deniz On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 2008/10/10 Deniz Kural <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > This whole "why would you need a USB in mongolia?" conversation shows how > out of touch some people on this list are with the people the project is > trying to reach. Deniz, this list if composed by people from all around the world, some of which have had contact with some cultures, others with other cultures. What we have in common is the desire to build a software platform that others can use to learn themselves and to teach others. As we have the wish that our work is universally used, we'll need to teach each other how is life in every part of the world and how we can better work so it serves best everywhere. Mikus hasn't been afraid of showing his ignorance about how USB sticks are used in Mongolia and you have kindly replied with an useful explanation. I hope we can keep sharing experiences like this but with a bit less of animosity. Regards, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Oct 10, 2008, at 8:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > mikus wrote: >> Talking about copy-from-journal and copy-to-journal: >>> can you provide a pointer to these scripts? >> >> Try 'which'. On my XO they're in /usr/bin. > > doh! i guess i don't use my XO as much as i thought! when you > said "written by users" i assumed you meant you had obtained them > from someone's personal website somewhere -- there's certainly a > lot of that kind of stuff out there. > > thanks for the (rather short) pointer. :-) > > paul > =- > paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel Try http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Copy_to_and_from_the_Journal The scripts pointed to there may need updating and enhancing to work nicely. Robert H. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
mikus wrote: > Talking about copy-from-journal and copy-to-journal: > > can you provide a pointer to these scripts? > > Try 'which'. On my XO they're in /usr/bin. doh! i guess i don't use my XO as much as i thought! when you said "written by users" i assumed you meant you had obtained them from someone's personal website somewhere -- there's certainly a lot of that kind of stuff out there. thanks for the (rather short) pointer. :-) paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 05:36:10PM -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote: > Martin, Deniz, cool it, the pair of you. No more ad hominem attacks. Relax. As to my "ad-hominem attacks", how is it ad-hominem to say that someone who says something incorrect is out of touch (with the truth/progress/etc.)? Or say that it's annoying me if they call others out of touch? The former is a statement of fact relevant to the propositions at hand, and the latter could at worst be an irrelevant personal opinion, but in that case the correct response is to ignore it, which I note many on the list are doing. > You each owe the other an apology. For disseminating up-to-date, correct information? No. For attempting sarcasm on the internet? Very sorry. Er, whoops, there I go again. > And one to Marco, too. Eh? Marco's great. Why should I apologize to him for that? > The list is not out of touch. I tried to keep it in touch with actions. I doubt many will be impressed by anything else, especially mere assertions (a lady who says she's a lady, and all that). > There are many on the list who are ignorant of conditions on the > ground and of other things through no fault of their own. Yes, but most of them don't go calling the list out of touch. > Now shake hands and come out arguing about facts, needs, and > possibilities. I argued about the facts. And I'm not good at meta-discussions, so perhaps I'm missing some other point of yours. Martin pgpiqrjL6Lofh.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Edward Cherlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martin, Deniz, cool it, the pair of you. No more ad hominem attacks. > You each owe the other an apology. And one to Marco, too. Thank you Edward, but no need for an apology. It's the funniest thing I heard in the last week, it made me laugh for a while if nothing else :) I need to turn it into a t-shirt... Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 08:10:57PM -0400, Deniz Kural wrote: > [this list is out of touch] > Hence, student, or teacher, I need a USB stick. 1. Plug USB stick into XO running build from the last six months 2. Drag files from the Journal to the USB stick icon 3. Drag files from the USB stick's file list to the Journal > Deniz > p.p.s Marco, you're a stuck-up asshole :) And you managed to call people that actually know what the hell they're talking about "out of touch". Thanks for advancing the state of knowledge on the list all the way forward to, oh, 2007. pgpoXl5f43HPu.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
Martin, Deniz, cool it, the pair of you. No more ad hominem attacks. You each owe the other an apology. And one to Marco, too. The list is not out of touch. There are many on the list who are ignorant of conditions on the ground and of other things through no fault of their own. Now shake hands and come out arguing about facts, needs, and possibilities. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Martin Dengler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 08:10:57PM -0400, Deniz Kural wrote: >> [this list is out of touch] >> Hence, student, or teacher, I need a USB stick. > > 1. Plug USB stick into XO running build from the last six months > 2. Drag files from the Journal to the USB stick icon > 3. Drag files from the USB stick's file list to the Journal > >> Deniz > >> p.p.s Marco, you're a stuck-up asshole :) > > And you managed to call people that actually know what the hell > they're talking about "out of touch". Thanks for advancing the > state of knowledge on the list all the way forward to, oh, 2007. > > ___ > Sugar mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > > -- Don't panic.--HHGTTG, Douglas Adams fivethirtyeight.com, 3bluedudes.com Obama still moving ahead in EC! http://www.obamapedia.org/ Join us! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai For the children ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
oh well, maybe it was just where we newbies entered the conversations - if that's the way you all work then fine. My main concern is that the info from the field gets to the right people. Best, Nia "Marco Pesenti Gritti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/08/08 02:33 PM To "Nia Lewis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc devel@lists.laptop.org, "elana langer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Erik Garrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Julia Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Reuben K. Caron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Tyler Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thanks, MArco. I still think talking to Erik like that isn't very nice > either:) Nia, this kind of "flames" are customary in a technical mailing list and I don't really think Erik should take personal offence about them. If you go back in the archives you will see way more offensive things said about my and the other Sugar developers work. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
Thanks, MArco. I still think talking to Erik like that isn't very nice either:) "Marco Pesenti Gritti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/08/08 02:17 PM To "Nia Lewis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc devel@lists.laptop.org, "elana langer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Erik Garrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Julia Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Reuben K. Caron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Tyler Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Marco, > > That was a really nice welcome. I work with Elana and the learning team here > at OLPC and one thing we are trying to do is increase communications between > our group and the technical side of the house. It seems the best way to > communicate this information from the field is to use the mailing list that > reaches the people creating the technology. > > Perhaps I am out of the loop but all of the people who have chimed in here > are active participants in this project and are just as devoted and > dedicated as you and I. To suggest they are uninformed seems a little harsh. > If you have better suggestions as to how we should communicate the issues we > find in the field and work toward fixing them, please let me know. Hello Nia, Huh! No, sorry, this is totally a misunderstanding. I was not referring to Elana feedback at all with that phrase. It was *exclusively* a technical remark to Erik approach to performance work. I appreciate Elana feedback and I highly value it. Keep it coming please :) My apologies for the misunderstanding, I hope this clarify. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
Hi Marco, That was a really nice welcome. I work with Elana and the learning team here at OLPC and one thing we are trying to do is increase communications between our group and the technical side of the house. It seems the best way to communicate this information from the field is to use the mailing list that reaches the people creating the technology. Perhaps I am out of the loop but all of the people who have chimed in here are active participants in this project and are just as devoted and dedicated as you and I. To suggest they are uninformed seems a little harsh. If you have better suggestions as to how we should communicate the issues we find in the field and work toward fixing them, please let me know. Thanks, Nia "Marco Pesenti Gritti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/07/08 12:08 PM To "Erik Garrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc "elana langer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Reuben K. Caron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Julia Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Tyler Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Nia Lewis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, devel@lists.laptop.org Subject Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How are we going to rectify the general slowness of our user interface? > It may not be enough to work on the performance problem from within the > existing framework. How will we know if this is the case? We will spend more time profiling and understanding the system and less in uninformed mailing list discussions. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
I encourage those interested in Journal issues to attend my talk @ 1cc next Wednesday, or to view the video of that talk when it's posted. Most of the journal issues have straight-forward solutions. Yesterday, I heard from the IT manager for the city of Key Largo, Florida; his 60-year old goverment workers have many of the same problems as our Mongolian users or 6-year olds. We can make things better. As Eben has mentioned, one part of this is prompting for names and descriptions at appropriate times. Think of Gmail: it doesn't let you send an email without a subject line without a bit a of effort. We can get better information from users, which will help them more easily find stuff later. Some objects, however (think of photos) really don't have good names: I've got a folder full of files named imgp12314.jpg and similar. Chronological search really is a decent way to find such things, and tags can help you re-find them later. I haven't put boot time on my personal 9.1.0 roadmap yet, but Mitch Bradley and others have done a good deal of work on the issue. I think we could make a sizable improvement for 9.1.0 if that's a priority (assuming some of the other technical enablers also make it into 9.1.0, like ubifs and partitions). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:14:16PM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > In my mind the fundamental problem is that users aren't required to
>> > fully qualify names for their work. Doing so seems to lie outside of
>> > one of the core points of Sugar's design ("There are no files, folders,
>> > or applications." -- http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page). Is it
>> > conceivable that we could change this feature of the system in future
>> > releases to clarify data management on Sugar-running XOs?
>>
>> You keep repeating this and it makes no sense. As Eben said we need to
>> encourage people to tag and name things. Saying that it's outside the
>> Sugar philosophy is nonsense.
>
> I read "there are no files ..." to mean that requiring a user to name
> something before storing it for later retrieval is outside Sugar design
> philosophy.
I don't think this statement is meant as literally as you interpret
it. Obviously the system is full of files, and you're correct that a
"named chunk of data" is basically what were talking about. The
intent of the "no files" sentiment is that kids needn't (necessarily)
think about named chunks of data. Instead, a child might make [this
thing], and then choose to give it [some name]; naming is a natural
process that applies to objects in the real world, too.
> "Named chunk of data" is pretty much the definition of a computer file.
> So if we're asking users to name their chunks of data to address a
> usability problem, aren't we just asking them to engage in file
> management? Can we do this and still abide by the "no files" principle?
We want the kids to make stuff. Call each thing they make an
"object"; call it a "thing"; call it whatever you'd like. We just
didn't want to force the definition of the term "file" on them, since
this term really stems from the early days of computing in which files
were predominantly text. The natural metaphor was files and folders.
In Sugar, we want to focus on creation of all sorts of things, and
ascribing the term "file" to [this song I composed] or [this image I
drew] seems limiting.
- Eben
> Erik
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Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 08:30:27PM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Thanks, MArco. I still think talking to Erik like that isn't very nice > > either:) > > Nia, > > this kind of "flames" are customary in a technical mailing list and I > don't really think Erik should take personal offence about them. If > you go back in the archives you will see way more offensive things > said about my and the other Sugar developers work. > > Marco Nia, For what it's worth, I'm not hurt and understood what Marco intended. Email is hard because it's difficult to hear the intention of the person. I think this feature of electronic communication is probably a principal cause of flamewars in their various guises. Thank you, Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Thanks, MArco. I still think talking to Erik like that isn't very nice >> either:) > > Nia, > > this kind of "flames" are customary in a technical mailing list and I > don't really think Erik should take personal offence about them. If > you go back in the archives you will see way more offensive things > said about my and the other Sugar developers work. Btw I went back and re-read my statement... There is actually nothing offensive or flaming in it "Uninformed" simply means that Erik assertions are not based on factual data (which I suggested him to acquire doing profiling work). Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thanks, MArco. I still think talking to Erik like that isn't very nice > either:) Nia, this kind of "flames" are customary in a technical mailing list and I don't really think Erik should take personal offence about them. If you go back in the archives you will see way more offensive things said about my and the other Sugar developers work. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Nia Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Marco, > > That was a really nice welcome. I work with Elana and the learning team here > at OLPC and one thing we are trying to do is increase communications between > our group and the technical side of the house. It seems the best way to > communicate this information from the field is to use the mailing list that > reaches the people creating the technology. > > Perhaps I am out of the loop but all of the people who have chimed in here > are active participants in this project and are just as devoted and > dedicated as you and I. To suggest they are uninformed seems a little harsh. > If you have better suggestions as to how we should communicate the issues we > find in the field and work toward fixing them, please let me know. Hello Nia, Huh! No, sorry, this is totally a misunderstanding. I was not referring to Elana feedback at all with that phrase. It was *exclusively* a technical remark to Erik approach to performance work. I appreciate Elana feedback and I highly value it. Keep it coming please :) My apologies for the misunderstanding, I hope this clarify. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:14:16PM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In my mind the fundamental problem is that users aren't required to
> > fully qualify names for their work. Doing so seems to lie outside of
> > one of the core points of Sugar's design ("There are no files, folders,
> > or applications." -- http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page). Is it
> > conceivable that we could change this feature of the system in future
> > releases to clarify data management on Sugar-running XOs?
>
> You keep repeating this and it makes no sense. As Eben said we need to
> encourage people to tag and name things. Saying that it's outside the
> Sugar philosophy is nonsense.
I read "there are no files ..." to mean that requiring a user to name
something before storing it for later retrieval is outside Sugar design
philosophy.
"Named chunk of data" is pretty much the definition of a computer file.
So if we're asking users to name their chunks of data to address a
usability problem, aren't we just asking them to engage in file
management? Can we do this and still abide by the "no files" principle?
Erik
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Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
> Fully qualified names (file names) are simple. They are misused to the > extent that users give things strange or confusing names. But, the > names are qualified and the users can encounter their work simply by > remembering most components of the name. The concept is > straightforward: given this key I will always find the data I need, and > only that data. There is nothing to prevent the user from entering his "fully qualified name" components as space-separated keywords in the tag field for the journal entry. Then the Journal search function (I just tried it on 8.2) will show only those entries whose keywords match all strings entered in the Journal search box. [The principal problem is that the current implementation does not enforce keyword order, nor keyword length - if an entry tagged "Ind Zip" matches, so will an entry tagged "Zipfiles Index".] mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:05:41PM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > How are we going to rectify the general slowness of our user interface? >> > It may not be enough to work on the performance problem from within the >> > existing framework. How will we know if this is the case? >> >> We will spend more time profiling and understanding the system and >> less in uninformed mailing list discussions. > > My point is that the easiest way to improve the user-perceived > performance of the system is probably to kill features. > > Profiling is not going to help us see this. It is merely going to help > us compare one implementation of the framework to another. No. Profiling is going to help you understand *what* is slow in the system and what you need to drop or fix. Right now you are just doing uninformed guesses, which increase the confusion and doesn't get us anywhere near to solve Elana problems. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
"Marco Pesenti Gritti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> In my mind the fundamental problem is that users aren't required to
>> fully qualify names for their work. Doing so seems to lie outside of
>> one of the core points of Sugar's design ("There are no files, folders,
>> or applications." -- http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page). Is it
>> conceivable that we could change this feature of the system in future
>> releases to clarify data management on Sugar-running XOs?
>
> You keep repeating this and it makes no sense. As Eben said we need to
> encourage people to tag and name things. Saying that it's outside the
> Sugar philosophy is nonsense.
I think we could have two modes: the one Sugar currently uses, where no
specific name is required to store a journal entry, and one in which the
user is required to name the journal entry when the activity is storing
it for the first time.
For example, in the first mode Atl-1 would do a screenshot as it does
right now. In the second mode Alt-1 would bring up a window querying
for the name of the screenshot.
Whether users are encouraged or not to actually name and tags things
on the XO can be influence by such UI features - no?
--
Bastien
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Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In my mind the fundamental problem is that users aren't required to
> fully qualify names for their work. Doing so seems to lie outside of
> one of the core points of Sugar's design ("There are no files, folders,
> or applications." -- http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page). Is it
> conceivable that we could change this feature of the system in future
> releases to clarify data management on Sugar-running XOs?
You keep repeating this and it makes no sense. As Eben said we need to
encourage people to tag and name things. Saying that it's outside the
Sugar philosophy is nonsense.
Marco
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Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:05:41PM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > How are we going to rectify the general slowness of our user interface? > > It may not be enough to work on the performance problem from within the > > existing framework. How will we know if this is the case? > > We will spend more time profiling and understanding the system and > less in uninformed mailing list discussions. My point is that the easiest way to improve the user-perceived performance of the system is probably to kill features. Profiling is not going to help us see this. It is merely going to help us compare one implementation of the framework to another. I am suggesting that we may need to think outside the existing box to resolve the issues described by Elana, and for this I believe that discussion is quite important. Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How are we going to rectify the general slowness of our user interface? > It may not be enough to work on the performance problem from within the > existing framework. How will we know if this is the case? We will spend more time profiling and understanding the system and less in uninformed mailing list discussions. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am concerned that focusing on such systems is breaking simple use > cases and causing problems for users in the field. I believe that this > functionality is important, but do not agree that it should comprise the > base layer of data access on a real-world system. > > Search is extremely powerful, but technically complicated to implement, > and equivalently complex to learn how to use. Remember that almost all > of us involved in this discussion have been using search on the web for > at least the past decade, and while we now understand it as an intuitive > process I contend this is not the case for new users. (I can remember, > but not locate, at least one study which noted that uninitated users > used search engines in extremely strange ways, for instance, running all > their search terms together because it mirrored the typical format of > DNS names.) > > Fully qualified names (file names) are simple. They are misused to the > extent that users give things strange or confusing names. But, the > names are qualified and the users can encounter their work simply by > remembering most components of the name. The concept is > straightforward: given this key I will always find the data I need, and > only that data. No one said that search would replace names. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:49:25AM -0400, Eben Eliason wrote: > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:17 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > mikus wrote: > > > - First off, every Activity has a 'Name Field' in its top menu. > > > When running any Activity, the user should enter there a short > > > "Title" to identify the resulting Journal entry from all others. > > > > > > - Then, upon leaving that Activity, the user should "reflect" on > > > what was done, and "update" the corresponding Journal entry to make > > > it easier to find later. This is particularly desirable if the > > > "Title" is not meaningful enough by itself for later locating what > > > the user is looking for: > > > > in a traditional system, when a user saves their work, they are > > pretty much forced to enter the (hopefully) useful name by which > > that work will be retrieved. > > > > if searching is the fundamental retrieval mechanism (which i think > > is fine), then my first reaction to mikus' advice is that > > activities and/or sugar should be more emphatic about asking for > > the descriptive information which be useful later. i.e., adding > > search tags shouldn't be an optional extra step, but a "usual" > > step which must be explicitly skipped by the user. > > Indeed. I had brought this issue up in the past thinking it might > happen for 8.2, but it's definitely on the plate for 9.1. I have a few > ideas about how we can make this system better, and encourage names > and tags, without becoming a hassle. We also, down the road, have > ideas about how to better expose the tagging system, and perhaps even > make it fun, so that describing things becomes a natural part of the > interface. Kids learn to speak by describing things around them; we > should be able to tap into this to both help them learn and make the > Journal a useful and searchable space. > I am concerned that focusing on such systems is breaking simple use cases and causing problems for users in the field. I believe that this functionality is important, but do not agree that it should comprise the base layer of data access on a real-world system. Search is extremely powerful, but technically complicated to implement, and equivalently complex to learn how to use. Remember that almost all of us involved in this discussion have been using search on the web for at least the past decade, and while we now understand it as an intuitive process I contend this is not the case for new users. (I can remember, but not locate, at least one study which noted that uninitated users used search engines in extremely strange ways, for instance, running all their search terms together because it mirrored the typical format of DNS names.) Fully qualified names (file names) are simple. They are misused to the extent that users give things strange or confusing names. But, the names are qualified and the users can encounter their work simply by remembering most components of the name. The concept is straightforward: given this key I will always find the data I need, and only that data. Note that in prior art, notably the web and desktop systems, a layer of fully qualified names for resources has always come long before, and provided a base layer for search systems. Despite the fact that links can break, if resources are renamed, we have not yet replaced URLs with search queries to search engines. URLs are quite reliable in comparison to the databases and algorithms required to drive search systems. Erik ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:17 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > mikus wrote: > > - First off, every Activity has a 'Name Field' in its top menu. > > When running any Activity, the user should enter there a short > > "Title" to identify the resulting Journal entry from all others. > > > > - Then, upon leaving that Activity, the user should "reflect" on > > what was done, and "update" the corresponding Journal entry to make > > it easier to find later. This is particularly desirable if the > > "Title" is not meaningful enough by itself for later locating what > > the user is looking for: > > in a traditional system, when a user saves their work, they are > pretty much forced to enter the (hopefully) useful name by which > that work will be retrieved. > > if searching is the fundamental retrieval mechanism (which i think > is fine), then my first reaction to mikus' advice is that > activities and/or sugar should be more emphatic about asking for > the descriptive information which be useful later. i.e., adding > search tags shouldn't be an optional extra step, but a "usual" > step which must be explicitly skipped by the user. Indeed. I had brought this issue up in the past thinking it might happen for 8.2, but it's definitely on the plate for 9.1. I have a few ideas about how we can make this system better, and encourage names and tags, without becoming a hassle. We also, down the road, have ideas about how to better expose the tagging system, and perhaps even make it fun, so that describing things becomes a natural part of the interface. Kids learn to speak by describing things around them; we should be able to tap into this to both help them learn and make the Journal a useful and searchable space. - Eben > paul > =- > paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Sugar mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
mikus wrote: > - First off, every Activity has a 'Name Field' in its top menu. > When running any Activity, the user should enter there a short > "Title" to identify the resulting Journal entry from all others. > > - Then, upon leaving that Activity, the user should "reflect" on > what was done, and "update" the corresponding Journal entry to make > it easier to find later. This is particularly desirable if the > "Title" is not meaningful enough by itself for later locating what > the user is looking for: in a traditional system, when a user saves their work, they are pretty much forced to enter the (hopefully) useful name by which that work will be retrieved. if searching is the fundamental retrieval mechanism (which i think is fine), then my first reaction to mikus' advice is that activities and/or sugar should be more emphatic about asking for the descriptive information which be useful later. i.e., adding search tags shouldn't be an optional extra step, but a "usual" step which must be explicitly skipped by the user. paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
