Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Sameer Verma wrote: > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Mitch Bradley wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno > wrote: > > > >> > AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight > >> > AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power > >> > chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. > >> > > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight > >> > > > > The cost of developing and supporting a processor family is staggering. > > > > AMD bought the Geode business from another company. Often, when a > company buys a business unit, that unit withers on the vine. The "new kids > on the block" have a difficult time establishing a strong place within the > established "pecking order", so in the competition for resources, the new > group often comes up short. When there is an economic downturn, the new > group is often the first to go. > > > > AMD barely has the resources to maintain a competitive stance in the part > of the market that has traditionally been their core, especially now that > the economy is bad. > > > > I'm sure that AMD would be very happy if they had enough money to go > after the low power market, but they just don't. > > > > > > ___ > > Devel mailing list > > Devel@lists.laptop.org > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > > > Somebody on Slashdot (yeah!) has a good write-up pointing to the fact > that AMD isn't halting production. Its just not going to develop Geode > further. http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1105799&cid=26623857 > > From the comment: > > > > > AMD is NOT halting production of the Geode. They are not leaving the > market (RTFM!). They have decided that it serves it's niche AS IS and > will be kept AS IS. That's a very different statement. They're saying > that it is a mature product (a rare thing in IT). > > Currently, the Geode is good enough for many applications and would be > a step up for others. The embedded world tends away from the shiny > object model of upgrades. If it worked last year, it works this year, > and it'll work next year. Changes in the product are considered > undesirable. > > AMD's statement doesn't even mean there won't be a die shrink or even > a faster Geode in the future, just that they won't be updating it's > architecture. > > It's not a bad decision either. There is a significant niche for the > Geode between the Atom (too hot, too power hungry) and things like the > Dragon Ball and mips (not enough power). > > Geode isn't in trouble until Intel comes out with an x86 that doesn't > need a heatsink (or at least doesn't need a fan). This is also referred to, in another thread, but the Atom draws very little power. I already referred that you can get an Atom that has a 0.65W TDP, not 3.whatever like in the Geode LX. These are the Z series and they draw very little power, top of 2.4W for the 1866MHz model. The other low-end chip(also $20), the Z510, has a TDP of 2W - any one of these can run without an "heatsink", mostly a small metal plate that allows the silicon core to dissipate heat, since it's a fliped-chip design. The Z500 is obviously very very good for embedded applications. The Z series use a lower power CMOS bus, instead of the power hungry GTL+, which when paired with Poulsbo it should make for a remarkable package. The next iteration will also have the graphics core and some other stuff embedded, for further savings. Best regards, Tiago Marques ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Jordan Crouse wrote: > Edward Cherlin wrote: > >> National Semiconductor, which bought the line from Cyrix. I edited >> several of the pin- and register-level manuals for various chips for >> them more than ten years ago, and updates of my work are still online >> on the AMD Web site. OLPC has educated AMD on how to use the >> power-management registers to do things that nobody previously knew >> were possible. > > AMD may have made some odd decisions over the years, but they don't deserve > the kicking they are getting. AMD gave OLPC unprecedented access to the > combined software and hardware expertise for the Geode - AMD didn't have to > be so open and OLPC didn't ask for it. The AMD engineers (and there were > many, many more than I) worked hand in hand with the OLPC designers from the > beginning, long before virtually everybody on this mailing list or in the > IRC room had jumped on the bandwagon. I was fortunate to be working with > brilliant developers such as Mark and Mitch who were able to read datasheets > and ask interesting qeustions, and they were fortunate to be able to have a > nearly direct connection to the silicon designers that designed the part. > > AMD and OLPC educated each other My point. I took it as obvious that AMD had to teach OLPC about the Geode processors, and commented that OLPC also found some other things in addition to what they were taught. > - and the result was arguably the most open > processor in history on one side, and a little green machine on the other. > So I take exception to the idea that AMD was the bumbling fool in this > partnership - Which is not what I said. I know something about combinatory mathematics, and a good deal about the definitions of the Geode registers, and I think it would have been astounding if OLPC had not found combinations and sequences with new uses. I am also well aware that AMD contributed greatly to the design of the XO, as did Red Hat and Quanta. I am also aware that power management design and implementation is nowhere near finished. > that is an unfair characterization, and an insult to the AMD > engineers that spent a lot of hours reviewing schematics, looking at USB > debug traces and writing code - much of which is still running on the system > to this day. > > Jordan -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai (Ed Cherlin) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
Edward Cherlin wrote: > National Semiconductor, which bought the line from Cyrix. I edited > several of the pin- and register-level manuals for various chips for > them more than ten years ago, and updates of my work are still online > on the AMD Web site. OLPC has educated AMD on how to use the > power-management registers to do things that nobody previously knew > were possible. AMD may have made some odd decisions over the years, but they don't deserve the kicking they are getting. AMD gave OLPC unprecedented access to the combined software and hardware expertise for the Geode - AMD didn't have to be so open and OLPC didn't ask for it. The AMD engineers (and there were many, many more than I) worked hand in hand with the OLPC designers from the beginning, long before virtually everybody on this mailing list or in the IRC room had jumped on the bandwagon. I was fortunate to be working with brilliant developers such as Mark and Mitch who were able to read datasheets and ask interesting qeustions, and they were fortunate to be able to have a nearly direct connection to the silicon designers that designed the part. AMD and OLPC educated each other - and the result was arguably the most open processor in history on one side, and a little green machine on the other. So I take exception to the idea that AMD was the bumbling fool in this partnership - that is an unfair characterization, and an insult to the AMD engineers that spent a lot of hours reviewing schematics, looking at USB debug traces and writing code - much of which is still running on the system to this day. Jordan ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > say those four magic words, sell the XO via geek online stores, and > 1CC will be so slashdotted to high heck with orders that the waiting > list will take years to fill out. At similar price points, the XO-1 > puts the Nintendo DS, Tapwave Zodiac, GP2X, Sony PSP, Chumby and iPods > + iPhones to shame. I'm not so sure of this. Nintendo is in the business of selling software and their consoles are just the drivers to it. So with iPods and PSPs. And most of these items are pushed to drive sales of a bigger item (a Wii, a MacBook, or a PS3) so there is some sort of selling strategy involved. Selling individual XOs in retail could be a driver though, to make up for the disappointing G1G1 2008 sales, but its pretty damn hard to compete on sheer geekery alone. -- Jerome G. Blog: http://gotangco.blogspot.com ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > Support? real men don't need no steeenkin manuals or directions! just > ship em in a plain cardboard box with a power adaptor and all will be > good to go! This unfortunately, is the point of view of a technical elitist (no I'm not pointing to you) that results to project failures. -- Jerome G. Blog: http://gotangco.blogspot.com ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > > People say they buy computers to work, but by and large they really > > buy them to play. And geodes > > wont run modern games so they aren't selling. > > Before the term DDOS came into use, there was only the Slashdot effect > where entire servers would melt down because of the sheer number of > geeks a link to the front page of slashdot.org would bring. > > foru simple words can save the entirety of OLPC and the AMD, and in > fact make both filthy rich, rich enough to execute our insane kumbaya > vision. > > military grade hacker toy > > say those four magic words, sell the XO via geek online stores, and > 1CC will be so slashdotted to high heck with orders that the waiting > list will take years to fill out. At similar price points, the XO-1 > puts the Nintendo DS, Tapwave Zodiac, GP2X, Sony PSP, Chumby and iPods > + iPhones to shame. > > Support? real men don't need no steeenkin manuals or directions! just > ship em in a plain cardboard box with a power adaptor and all will be > good to go! > > Start selling current batches of 1GB Nand 256MB RAM. These are > collector's items and will increase in value. > Move out all existing stocks, and then fix fab to ship next version > with 512MB RAM + 4-8GB NAND. Moore's law and Windows Vista have > brought down the price of memory to dirt-cheap levels. > I'm with you. The small detail is that the Geode LX doesn't support DDR2, AFAIK, and that's the cheapest RAM currently available, DDR1 is more expensive, so that it may be prohibitive. The most serious mistake, decision, whatever the case that the XO ships with is the lack of swap memory on a "bloated" python based environment. I have not used much my XO without the swap, cause I found that opening up 2 or 3 activities would make the XO "crash". Use 1GB of swap from an SD card and all is good. The XO should, at least, pack more flash or an SD card to have swap on it. If the SD card goes bad from constant swapping, exchange or throw it away. It wouldn't be worse than as is today. > Chipmakers produced so much RAM and opened so many factories in > anticipation of Vista's insanely stupid bloatedness (that was the > first time I ever saw a software company make bloatedness and > inefficiency as a prime selling feature) that when it miserably > failed, they now have so much RAM on their hands they don't know what > to do with it. > > Chipmakers are in deep trouble right now and RAM prices have never > been so low. Anyone looking to upgrade RAM, now is the time. OLPC? > Have Quanta start on the XO-1.1 with the increased storage + memory. > > My concern with the upped specs is that AFAIK, more ram = increased > power consumption? Or was that only for desktops and sticking > additional sticks in empty memory slots? > > Also, here's something Jerome Gotangco over at OLPC Ph has noticed > after sticking in Teapot's Xubuntu XO Intrepid Ibex liveSD: Battery > life seems to have gone down a lot. > > I just recently managed to get the same working on 2 of the developer > units with me on different kinds of SD Cards, and it seems that using > the SD for the primary storage/OS cuts the battery life a lot because > of the increased power draw from having to jump electricity through SD > cards? (I haven't timed it yet, but I think battery life went down to > about 2-2.5 hours with an active wifi connection and the screen > brightness set to black and white sunlight readable mode?) > > Will do further tests. > > -Naz > > P.S. Seriously. Look at the popularity of the homebrew and > retrogaming/emulation scene. Opening up sales of the XO to the geeks > of the world will also provide the EXACT OPPOSITE of drawing away > resources from OLPC. The sheer amount of geekery will give back and > produce the amazing kinds of stuff you see from the homebrew and > emulation hacker scene, creating troves of the much needed content the > XO is lacking. > P.P.S. Beggars can't be choosers. Asking for donations but putting > conditions on it is just twisted ethics. Just sell 'em at $200 and > economies of scale + moore's law will take care of things. > > P.P.P.S. Seriously seriously WTF seriously. > P.P.P.P.P.P.P.S. WTF? WTF?WTF WTF? > > P.P.S. All snarkiness aside, will post better on why this is really > extremely ethical and is the proper way to go. I have to sleep. Very > little sleep since monday. nyt all. > > P.P.P.P.S. re: multitouch go for it! MPX, keep the "2nd screen" as a > real keyboard -> power draw of 2nd screen + lack of haptics is a > serious functionality problem. thanks to all who replied, such > incredible starting points and I've done research on those 2 things I > said even googling, but am tickled pink that the methods I outlined > are in use :D check out > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQpr3W-YmcQ&NR=1 too :) > > nyt > > -- > carlos nazareno > http://twitter.com/object404 > http://www.object404.com > -- > adobe user group manager > phlashers: philippine flash ac
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Bobby Powers wrote: > I believe there are technical or supply chain reasons that make it > more difficult than just swapping out the NAND chips. Not to be rude, > but you're not the first one who has thought of this :) Lot of people assume mfg is easy. It is incredibly hard, and everybody sweats blood over it. Every little change is a nightmare domino of other "little" changes. Apparently trivial changes have ginormous costs. Just like when a non-programmer goes "What could be hard about adding feature X? Add the button, a little bit of code behind it, done!". I find that annoying, so I avoid doing the same to hw people. Apple manages to make mfg easy and cool, but behind the scenes, man do they toil... cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: >> People say they buy computers to work, but by and large they really >> buy them to play. And geodes >> wont run modern games so they aren't selling. > > Before the term DDOS came into use, there was only the Slashdot effect > where entire servers would melt down because of the sheer number of > geeks a link to the front page of slashdot.org would bring. > > foru simple words can save the entirety of OLPC and the AMD, and in > fact make both filthy rich, rich enough to execute our insane kumbaya > vision. > > military grade hacker toy > > say those four magic words, sell the XO via geek online stores, and > 1CC will be so slashdotted to high heck with orders that the waiting > list will take years to fill out. At similar price points, the XO-1 > puts the Nintendo DS, Tapwave Zodiac, GP2X, Sony PSP, Chumby and iPods > + iPhones to shame. > > Support? real men don't need no steeenkin manuals or directions! just > ship em in a plain cardboard box with a power adaptor and all will be > good to go! > > Start selling current batches of 1GB Nand 256MB RAM. These are > collector's items and will increase in value. > Move out all existing stocks, and then fix fab to ship next version > with 512MB RAM + 4-8GB NAND. Moore's law and Windows Vista have I believe there are technical or supply chain reasons that make it more difficult than just swapping out the NAND chips. Not to be rude, but you're not the first one who has thought of this :) bobby > brought down the price of memory to dirt-cheap levels. > > Chipmakers produced so much RAM and opened so many factories in > anticipation of Vista's insanely stupid bloatedness (that was the > first time I ever saw a software company make bloatedness and > inefficiency as a prime selling feature) that when it miserably > failed, they now have so much RAM on their hands they don't know what > to do with it. > > Chipmakers are in deep trouble right now and RAM prices have never > been so low. Anyone looking to upgrade RAM, now is the time. OLPC? > Have Quanta start on the XO-1.1 with the increased storage + memory. > > My concern with the upped specs is that AFAIK, more ram = increased > power consumption? Or was that only for desktops and sticking > additional sticks in empty memory slots? > > Also, here's something Jerome Gotangco over at OLPC Ph has noticed > after sticking in Teapot's Xubuntu XO Intrepid Ibex liveSD: Battery > life seems to have gone down a lot. > > I just recently managed to get the same working on 2 of the developer > units with me on different kinds of SD Cards, and it seems that using > the SD for the primary storage/OS cuts the battery life a lot because > of the increased power draw from having to jump electricity through SD > cards? (I haven't timed it yet, but I think battery life went down to > about 2-2.5 hours with an active wifi connection and the screen > brightness set to black and white sunlight readable mode?) > > Will do further tests. > > -Naz > > P.S. Seriously. Look at the popularity of the homebrew and > retrogaming/emulation scene. Opening up sales of the XO to the geeks > of the world will also provide the EXACT OPPOSITE of drawing away > resources from OLPC. The sheer amount of geekery will give back and > produce the amazing kinds of stuff you see from the homebrew and > emulation hacker scene, creating troves of the much needed content the > XO is lacking. > P.P.S. Beggars can't be choosers. Asking for donations but putting > conditions on it is just twisted ethics. Just sell 'em at $200 and > economies of scale + moore's law will take care of things. > > P.P.P.S. Seriously seriously WTF seriously. > P.P.P.P.P.P.P.S. WTF? WTF?WTF WTF? > > P.P.S. All snarkiness aside, will post better on why this is really > extremely ethical and is the proper way to go. I have to sleep. Very > little sleep since monday. nyt all. > > P.P.P.P.S. re: multitouch go for it! MPX, keep the "2nd screen" as a > real keyboard -> power draw of 2nd screen + lack of haptics is a > serious functionality problem. thanks to all who replied, such > incredible starting points and I've done research on those 2 things I > said even googling, but am tickled pink that the methods I outlined > are in use :D check out > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQpr3W-YmcQ&NR=1 too :) > > nyt > > -- > carlos nazareno > http://twitter.com/object404 > http://www.object404.com > -- > adobe user group manager > phlashers: philippine flash actionscripters > adobe flash/flex/air community > http://www.phlashers.com > -- > interactive media specialist > zen graffiti studios > http://www.zengraffiti.com > -- > "if you don't like the way the world is running, > then change it instead of just complaining." > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
Hi, > Also, here's something Jerome Gotangco over at OLPC Ph has noticed > after sticking in Teapot's Xubuntu XO Intrepid Ibex liveSD: Battery > life seems to have gone down a lot. We have power management software specific to the XO, and the Ubuntu build doesn't use it. - Chris. -- Chris Ball ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > Also, here's something Jerome Gotangco over at OLPC Ph has noticed > after sticking in Teapot's Xubuntu XO Intrepid Ibex liveSD: Battery > life seems to have gone down a lot. one reason for this is that the power management for the XO is still tied up in OLPC specific things and not the standard interfaces that the distros use. David Lang ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
> People say they buy computers to work, but by and large they really > buy them to play. And geodes > wont run modern games so they aren't selling. Before the term DDOS came into use, there was only the Slashdot effect where entire servers would melt down because of the sheer number of geeks a link to the front page of slashdot.org would bring. foru simple words can save the entirety of OLPC and the AMD, and in fact make both filthy rich, rich enough to execute our insane kumbaya vision. military grade hacker toy say those four magic words, sell the XO via geek online stores, and 1CC will be so slashdotted to high heck with orders that the waiting list will take years to fill out. At similar price points, the XO-1 puts the Nintendo DS, Tapwave Zodiac, GP2X, Sony PSP, Chumby and iPods + iPhones to shame. Support? real men don't need no steeenkin manuals or directions! just ship em in a plain cardboard box with a power adaptor and all will be good to go! Start selling current batches of 1GB Nand 256MB RAM. These are collector's items and will increase in value. Move out all existing stocks, and then fix fab to ship next version with 512MB RAM + 4-8GB NAND. Moore's law and Windows Vista have brought down the price of memory to dirt-cheap levels. Chipmakers produced so much RAM and opened so many factories in anticipation of Vista's insanely stupid bloatedness (that was the first time I ever saw a software company make bloatedness and inefficiency as a prime selling feature) that when it miserably failed, they now have so much RAM on their hands they don't know what to do with it. Chipmakers are in deep trouble right now and RAM prices have never been so low. Anyone looking to upgrade RAM, now is the time. OLPC? Have Quanta start on the XO-1.1 with the increased storage + memory. My concern with the upped specs is that AFAIK, more ram = increased power consumption? Or was that only for desktops and sticking additional sticks in empty memory slots? Also, here's something Jerome Gotangco over at OLPC Ph has noticed after sticking in Teapot's Xubuntu XO Intrepid Ibex liveSD: Battery life seems to have gone down a lot. I just recently managed to get the same working on 2 of the developer units with me on different kinds of SD Cards, and it seems that using the SD for the primary storage/OS cuts the battery life a lot because of the increased power draw from having to jump electricity through SD cards? (I haven't timed it yet, but I think battery life went down to about 2-2.5 hours with an active wifi connection and the screen brightness set to black and white sunlight readable mode?) Will do further tests. -Naz P.S. Seriously. Look at the popularity of the homebrew and retrogaming/emulation scene. Opening up sales of the XO to the geeks of the world will also provide the EXACT OPPOSITE of drawing away resources from OLPC. The sheer amount of geekery will give back and produce the amazing kinds of stuff you see from the homebrew and emulation hacker scene, creating troves of the much needed content the XO is lacking. P.P.S. Beggars can't be choosers. Asking for donations but putting conditions on it is just twisted ethics. Just sell 'em at $200 and economies of scale + moore's law will take care of things. P.P.P.S. Seriously seriously WTF seriously. P.P.P.P.P.P.P.S. WTF? WTF?WTF WTF? P.P.S. All snarkiness aside, will post better on why this is really extremely ethical and is the proper way to go. I have to sleep. Very little sleep since monday. nyt all. P.P.P.P.S. re: multitouch go for it! MPX, keep the "2nd screen" as a real keyboard -> power draw of 2nd screen + lack of haptics is a serious functionality problem. thanks to all who replied, such incredible starting points and I've done research on those 2 things I said even googling, but am tickled pink that the methods I outlined are in use :D check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQpr3W-YmcQ&NR=1 too :) nyt -- carlos nazareno http://twitter.com/object404 http://www.object404.com -- adobe user group manager phlashers: philippine flash actionscripters adobe flash/flex/air community http://www.phlashers.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- "if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining." ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
2009/1/27 Benjamin M. Schwartz : > Carlos Nazareno wrote: >> Do ARM processors do these things better than anything else on the >> market right now? but then you lose the X86 compatibility and this >> probably breaks things for cross-platform upstream contributions for >> any deved/researched write-once-run-many apps/projects. (correct me if >> I'm wrong, am just speculating because I'm not a CE and as well-versed >> with computer architecture) > > Sugar has been tested on both x86 and ARM [1]. How about the XScale version of the ARM architecture? Is anybody working on that? We need it for the Encore Mobilis port, on Montavista Linux. It would be hilarious to me if the XO-2 had an XScale processor, and Microsoft suddenly had to port Windows XP to it in order to stay in th game. :-Þ > I expect it would run > perfectly on MIPS, PPC, SPARC, Itanium, Alpha... Linux runs on just about > every major architecture, and I expect the same of just about any > Linux-based system. None of the Geode-specific power management code would work, of course, but that's kernel-level stuff. It doesn't go into the .xo bundles or the distro-specific packages. > I'm not too worried about upstream support. Our Activities are mostly > written in Python or portable C, and the underlying operating system is > typically based on Fedora, Debian[2], Gentoo[3]... which already support > all of the above architectures. > > It's true that you lose the ability to run arbitrary binaries from other > platforms, but this is only important if you care about closed-source > code. That means, for us, Flash and drivers. There are Open Source BIOS equivalents for some of these architectures. > Most important open source programs are easily recompiled for any > architecture. > > --Ben > > [1] http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardSugar > [2] http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual > [3] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/index.xml#doc_chap4 > > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai (Ed Cherlin) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Edward Cherlin wrote: >>> AMD bought the Geode business from another company. > > National Semiconductor, which bought the line from Cyrix. I edited > several of the pin- and register-level manuals for various chips for > them more than ten years ago, For National Semiconductor, that is. -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai (Ed Cherlin) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Sameer Verma wrote: > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Mitch Bradley wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno >> wrote: >> >>> > AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight >>> > AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power >>> > chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. >>> > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight >>> >> >> The cost of developing and supporting a processor family is staggering. >> >> AMD bought the Geode business from another company. National Semiconductor, which bought the line from Cyrix. I edited several of the pin- and register-level manuals for various chips for them more than ten years ago, and updates of my work are still online on the AMD Web site. OLPC has educated AMD on how to use the power-management registers to do things that nobody previously knew were possible. >> Often, when a company buys a business unit, that unit withers on the vine. >> The "new kids on the block" have a difficult time establishing a strong >> place within the established "pecking order", so in the competition for >> resources, the new group often comes up short. When there is an economic >> downturn, the new group is often the first to go. >> >> AMD barely has the resources to maintain a competitive stance in the part of >> the market that has traditionally been their core, especially now that the >> economy is bad. >> >> I'm sure that AMD would be very happy if they had enough money to go after >> the low power market, but they just don't. I am delighted that this premature obituary also turns out to be greatly exaggerated. >> ___ >> Devel mailing list >> Devel@lists.laptop.org >> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel >> > > Somebody on Slashdot (yeah!) has a good write-up pointing to the fact > that AMD isn't halting production. Its just not going to develop Geode > further. http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1105799&cid=26623857 > > From the comment: > > > > > AMD is NOT halting production of the Geode. They are not leaving the > market (RTFM!). They have decided that it serves it's niche AS IS and > will be kept AS IS. That's a very different statement. They're saying > that it is a mature product (a rare thing in IT). > > Currently, the Geode is good enough for many applications and would be > a step up for others. The embedded world tends away from the shiny > object model of upgrades. If it worked last year, it works this year, > and it'll work next year. Changes in the product are considered > undesirable. > > AMD's statement doesn't even mean there won't be a die shrink or even > a faster Geode in the future, just that they won't be updating it's > architecture. > > It's not a bad decision either. There is a significant niche for the > Geode between the Atom (too hot, too power hungry) and things like the > Dragon Ball and mips (not enough power). > > Geode isn't in trouble until Intel comes out with an x86 that doesn't > need a heatsink (or at least doesn't need a fan). > > Marvell has bought XScale from Intel. That may be the principal alternative. The Encore Mobilis being bought by Brazil for its schools uses an XScale processor and MontaVista Linux, so Sugar Labs should be working on an XScale port of Sugar soon. > I've seen the Geode in action in Soekris boards > (http://www.soekris.com/) when I was doing fun Wi-Fi stuff, and used > to wonder what it would be like if we had a Geode machine running a > laptop...well that wish came true with the XO :-) > > I'll also point out (peripherally) to a comment made by Jeff Bezos in > a BusinessWeek article > (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_17/b4081064880218.htm), > where he says that frugality leads to innovation (necessity being the > mother of invention, etc.) and I think the frugality of XO's design > has definitely lead to many innovations. I for one would *not* have > thought that I would be using a 433MHz x86 laptop with 256MB RAM as my > favorite machine :-) Alan Kay loves to ask how Doug Engelbart and his team managed to shoehorn all of the Online System (NLS) in The Mother of All Demos into 192K in 1968.This included realtime videoconferencing and instantaneous, seamless crash recovery. People come up with all sorts of technical theories, but Alan's answer is, "Because they wanted to badly enough." > Hats off to the Geode! > > cheers, > Sameer > -- > Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Information Systems > San Francisco State University > San Francisco CA 94132 USA > http://verma.sfsu.edu/ > http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my d
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Jan 27, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Mitch Bradley wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno > wrote: > >>> AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight >>> AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low- >>> power >>> chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. >>> http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/ >>> amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight >> > > The cost of developing and supporting a processor family is > staggering. > > AMD bought the Geode business from another company. Often, when a > company buys a business unit, that unit withers on the vine. The > "new kids on the block" have a difficult time establishing a strong > place within the established "pecking order", so in the competition > for resources, the new group often comes up short. When there is > an economic downturn, the new group is often the first to go. Much worse, as AMD bought Geode from National, who had obtained it six years earlier through acquiring Cyrix. wad ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Mitch Bradley wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > >> > AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight >> > AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power >> > chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. >> > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight >> > > The cost of developing and supporting a processor family is staggering. > > AMD bought the Geode business from another company. Often, when a company > buys a business unit, that unit withers on the vine. The "new kids on the > block" have a difficult time establishing a strong place within the > established "pecking order", so in the competition for resources, the new > group often comes up short. When there is an economic downturn, the new > group is often the first to go. > > AMD barely has the resources to maintain a competitive stance in the part of > the market that has traditionally been their core, especially now that the > economy is bad. > > I'm sure that AMD would be very happy if they had enough money to go after > the low power market, but they just don't. > > > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > Somebody on Slashdot (yeah!) has a good write-up pointing to the fact that AMD isn't halting production. Its just not going to develop Geode further. http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1105799&cid=26623857 >From the comment: AMD is NOT halting production of the Geode. They are not leaving the market (RTFM!). They have decided that it serves it's niche AS IS and will be kept AS IS. That's a very different statement. They're saying that it is a mature product (a rare thing in IT). Currently, the Geode is good enough for many applications and would be a step up for others. The embedded world tends away from the shiny object model of upgrades. If it worked last year, it works this year, and it'll work next year. Changes in the product are considered undesirable. AMD's statement doesn't even mean there won't be a die shrink or even a faster Geode in the future, just that they won't be updating it's architecture. It's not a bad decision either. There is a significant niche for the Geode between the Atom (too hot, too power hungry) and things like the Dragon Ball and mips (not enough power). Geode isn't in trouble until Intel comes out with an x86 that doesn't need a heatsink (or at least doesn't need a fan). I've seen the Geode in action in Soekris boards (http://www.soekris.com/) when I was doing fun Wi-Fi stuff, and used to wonder what it would be like if we had a Geode machine running a laptop...well that wish came true with the XO :-) I'll also point out (peripherally) to a comment made by Jeff Bezos in a BusinessWeek article (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_17/b4081064880218.htm), where he says that frugality leads to innovation (necessity being the mother of invention, etc.) and I think the frugality of XO's design has definitely lead to many innovations. I for one would *not* have thought that I would be using a 433MHz x86 laptop with 256MB RAM as my favorite machine :-) Hats off to the Geode! cheers, Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
Carlos Nazareno wrote: > Do ARM processors do these things better than anything else on the > market right now? but then you lose the X86 compatibility and this > probably breaks things for cross-platform upstream contributions for > any deved/researched write-once-run-many apps/projects. (correct me if > I'm wrong, am just speculating because I'm not a CE and as well-versed > with computer architecture) Sugar has been tested on both x86 and ARM [1]. I expect it would run perfectly on MIPS, PPC, SPARC, Itanium, Alpha... Linux runs on just about every major architecture, and I expect the same of just about any Linux-based system. I'm not too worried about upstream support. Our Activities are mostly written in Python or portable C, and the underlying operating system is typically based on Fedora, Debian[2], Gentoo[3]... which already support all of the above architectures. It's true that you lose the ability to run arbitrary binaries from other platforms, but this is only important if you care about closed-source code. Most important open source programs are easily recompiled for any architecture. --Ben [1] http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardSugar [2] http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual [3] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/index.xml#doc_chap4 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:04 AM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > Looks like AMD's going to be pulling out of the low-power computing > space because of the economic crunch. At least they're not completely shutting down the fabrication of existing technologies that would still need Geode-type of components. They (AMD) have been struggling for quite some time, and I guess the other players have been doing their share of improvements into low power computing (Freescale, VIA, etc.) -- Jerome G. Blog: http://gotangco.blogspot.com ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes (Carlos Nazareno)
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > > AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight > > AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power > > chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. > > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight > The cost of developing and supporting a processor family is staggering. AMD bought the Geode business from another company. Often, when a company buys a business unit, that unit withers on the vine. The "new kids on the block" have a difficult time establishing a strong place within the established "pecking order", so in the competition for resources, the new group often comes up short. When there is an economic downturn, the new group is often the first to go. AMD barely has the resources to maintain a competitive stance in the part of the market that has traditionally been their core, especially now that the economy is bad. I'm sure that AMD would be very happy if they had enough money to go after the low power market, but they just don't. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > it's the low power part that's very important here. it's the XO's > incredibly low power consumption that really sets it apart from any > other currently in production computer (excluding smartphones and > pdas). Of course! But, I was quite disapointed when I knew that the 0.9W they announce for the Geode LX is only the idle power, on typical usage it's more like: LX 8...@0.9 W: clock speed: 500 MHz, with power consumption: 1.8 watts. (*TDP 3.6 W*) Borrowed this line from wikipedia. Now take a look at this one: Atom Z500, 800 MHz, 512 KiB, 0.80 - 1.1V, *0.65 W TDP, 160 mW* *idle* - $20 As much as I don't really like Intel for the Classmate, this is miles ahead of the Geode LX. And it's not what I'd call expensive, although I don't have an ideia of how much the Geode in the XO costs. > > > I'm not really familiar with the new processors from Intel > (silverthorne, diamondville) and Via's, but can they run at as low > power consumption as the Geode and provide the same (and if not > better) MHz bang for the consumption? > > Do ARM processors do these things better than anything else on the > market right now? but then you lose the X86 compatibility and this > probably breaks things for cross-platform upstream contributions for > any deved/researched write-once-run-many apps/projects. (correct me if > I'm wrong, am just speculating because I'm not a CE and as well-versed > > with computer architecture) > > Some laptop manufacturers are designing hybrid laptops with a regular x86 processor and an ARM to boot a small linux distribution from flash, so it must not be that bad. AFAIK, ARM and Canonical will be doing a push for ARM Linux in the coming months. > > > I've always loved AMD's cool and quiet technology and am pretty much > cursing the unrelenting power draw of my core2-quad desktop coz my UPS > battery life has gone down the drain and electric bill has spiked so > high since I replaced my lowly Sempron. > > (I do have the need for speed for rendering) > Pretty much all of Intel's power management sucks, even in laptops. Mostly they don't allow the CPU to clock too low, for whatever reason, while AMD can clock down to 800-1GHz almost all CPUs. Also, do you know one thing that Celeron Ms lack is power management? Unbelievable, given their target market. > As for games, can we just classify the XO in the same class as > current-gen smartphones horsepower wise and not market it as anything > other than that? That's pretty much how we're running the Flash Dev > for the XO project because that's exactly how the XO performs (and > it's a hell of a lot better than any smartphone in the market for > heavier mobile computing and education!) > Right you are, I love this little piece of hardware. Best regards, Tiago Marques > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Martin Langhoff > wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno > wrote: > >> AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight > >> AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power > >> chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. > >> > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight > > > > This has been relatively well known in the industry for a while. It > > means they'll keep cranking more Geodes if you want to buy them, but > > there will not be a "next" Geode chip. Maybe they'll come out with > > another low-power cpu line sometime in the future, maybe not. > > > > Intel and Via are the most interesting options right now in this > > space, and both seem to be working on a "next" chip. > > > > PCWorld and friends are for the consumer market, so they are about a > > year behind on the news I'd say... > > > > cheers, > > > > > > m > > -- > > martin.langh...@gmail.com > > mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect > > - ask interesting questions > > - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first > > - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff > > > > > > -- > Carlos Nazareno > http://twitter.com/naz404 > http://www.object404.com > -- > interactive media specialist > zen graffiti studios > http://www.zengraffiti.com > -- > User Group Manager > Phlashers: Philippine Flash ActionScripters > Adobe Flash/Flex User Group > http://www.phlashers.com > -- > "if you don't like the way the world is running, > then change it instead of just complaining." > ___ > Devel mailing list > Devel@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
it's the low power part that's very important here. it's the XO's incredibly low power consumption that really sets it apart from any other currently in production computer (excluding smartphones and pdas). I'm not really familiar with the new processors from Intel (silverthorne, diamondville) and Via's, but can they run at as low power consumption as the Geode and provide the same (and if not better) MHz bang for the consumption? Do ARM processors do these things better than anything else on the market right now? but then you lose the X86 compatibility and this probably breaks things for cross-platform upstream contributions for any deved/researched write-once-run-many apps/projects. (correct me if I'm wrong, am just speculating because I'm not a CE and as well-versed with computer architecture) I've always loved AMD's cool and quiet technology and am pretty much cursing the unrelenting power draw of my core2-quad desktop coz my UPS battery life has gone down the drain and electric bill has spiked so high since I replaced my lowly Sempron. (I do have the need for speed for rendering) As for games, can we just classify the XO in the same class as current-gen smartphones horsepower wise and not market it as anything other than that? That's pretty much how we're running the Flash Dev for the XO project because that's exactly how the XO performs (and it's a hell of a lot better than any smartphone in the market for heavier mobile computing and education!) On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: >> AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight >> AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power >> chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. >> http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight > > This has been relatively well known in the industry for a while. It > means they'll keep cranking more Geodes if you want to buy them, but > there will not be a "next" Geode chip. Maybe they'll come out with > another low-power cpu line sometime in the future, maybe not. > > Intel and Via are the most interesting options right now in this > space, and both seem to be working on a "next" chip. > > PCWorld and friends are for the consumer market, so they are about a > year behind on the news I'd say... > > cheers, > > > m > -- > martin.langh...@gmail.com > mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect > - ask interesting questions > - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first > - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff > -- Carlos Nazareno http://twitter.com/naz404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- User Group Manager Phlashers: Philippine Flash ActionScripters Adobe Flash/Flex User Group http://www.phlashers.com -- "if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining." ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: > AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight > AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power > chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. > http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight This has been relatively well known in the industry for a while. It means they'll keep cranking more Geodes if you want to buy them, but there will not be a "next" Geode chip. Maybe they'll come out with another low-power cpu line sometime in the future, maybe not. Intel and Via are the most interesting options right now in this space, and both seem to be working on a "next" chip. PCWorld and friends are for the consumer market, so they are about a year behind on the news I'd say... cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
Hi. On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Jeffrey Kesselman wrote: > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno > wrote: > >e of the economic crunch. > > > > This is completely wrong and low-power + efficiency is exactly where > > all computing should go. multicore GHz monsters should be sold to > > people who really need them and not to joe average who just needs to > > surf and do ms office work. > > What makes you think that's all the average Joe does with his computer? > > This is a blindness that always amazes me when I see it. Does every > single motherboard now come with > a 3D chip to suf the web and do ms office work? > > Since the beginning of the microcomputer revolution people have SAID > they were buyign the computer to > word process, or do spreadsheets, but the number one selling pecie fo > software, the one > comaptability test every clone maker had tio pass, was running MS > Flight Simualtor. > > People say they buy computers to work, but by and large they really > buy them to play. And geodes > wont run modern games so they aren't selling. Neither do Celerons ULV 900 and the current Intel Atom, just see how they are doing. Call them the Wii of personal computers, if you may. One of the problems with the Geode LX is that it doesn't run youtube quite right. As sales of the OLPC G1G1 came down to 7% of last year, it seems people didn't like to pay more for a "netbook" that doesn't do youtube how a $199 EEE does. That 93% less Geodes sold sure must help AMD to not look at the Geode the same way. A Geode shrunk to 45nm sure would help the XO, heck, even a 65nm one would. Perhaps time for a "Get 4 Give 1" program? Where each XO sold to the public, 1/4 of it's value is for a donated XO. That could help bring mass production closer to the desired numbers, mass public availability sure has helped that darn Classmate. Just my 2 cents. Best regards, Tiago Marques ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: AMD to stop working on Geodes
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Carlos Nazareno wrote: >e of the economic crunch. > > This is completely wrong and low-power + efficiency is exactly where > all computing should go. multicore GHz monsters should be sold to > people who really need them and not to joe average who just needs to > surf and do ms office work. What makes you think that's all the average Joe does with his computer? This is a blindness that always amazes me when I see it. Does every single motherboard now come with a 3D chip to suf the web and do ms office work? Since the beginning of the microcomputer revolution people have SAID they were buyign the computer to word process, or do spreadsheets, but the number one selling pecie fo software, the one comaptability test every clone maker had tio pass, was running MS Flight Simualtor. People say they buy computers to work, but by and large they really buy them to play. And geodes wont run modern games so they aren't selling. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
AMD to stop working on Geodes
AMD sees no Geode chip replacement in sight AMD on Monday said it has no replacement for the aging Geode low-power chips that are used in netbooks and set-top boxes. http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/274414/amd_sees_no_geode_chip_replacement_sight Looks like AMD's going to be pulling out of the low-power computing space because of the economic crunch. This is completely wrong and low-power + efficiency is exactly where all computing should go. multicore GHz monsters should be sold to people who really need them and not to joe average who just needs to surf and do ms office work. sorry guys, lack sleep, thanks for all the pointers on multitouch & audio feedback interface - I saw really amazing stuff and am tickled pink that the precise methods I just outlined are already being worked on :) will reply on all these when I get back. This latest piece of news has been an extremely frustrating development for me and goes completely against the grain of ubiquitous sustainable computing for everyone + bridging the digital divide. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong see you guys later. -- Carlos Nazareno http://twitter.com/naz404 http://www.object404.com -- interactive media specialist zen graffiti studios http://www.zengraffiti.com -- User Group Manager Phlashers: Philippine Flash ActionScripters Adobe Flash/Flex User Group http://www.phlashers.com -- "if you don't like the way the world is running, then change it instead of just complaining." ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
