Re: cerebro in sugar (was Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed)

2008-06-10 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The basic hang-up here is that our currently shareable activities are
> built on Telepathy but there are few OLPC-related people who understand
> and enjoy the Telepathy stack.

I must have missed something, because I don't understand nor enjoy
most (any?) of the software I depend on. But as it allows me to get
the work done, even if I get crazy sometimes, I just get into the
source and try to make some sense out of it.

How many people you know that understands and enjoys any of mozilla,
gtk, pygtk, abiword, X, cairo, etc? When you get so high on the stack,
you find lots of compromises already made for situations different
than yours. And then you have to workaround those workarounds to adapt
to your specific situation. How can someone understand all that and
even more, enjoy it?

There may be some other reasons why nobody wants to tackle this task?

Regards,

Tomeu
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Re: cerebro in sugar (was Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed)

2008-06-10 Thread Marco Pesenti Gritti
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:06:17AM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > I still don't understand what's in the path to integrate cerebro into
>> > sugar. You proposed to change the API and of course you were asked to
>> > justify this.
>> >
>> > Seems to me like now everybody agrees on coding a cerebro connection
>> > manager, which would bring cerebro's benefits without having to change
>> > the API.
>> >
>> > What's the problem?
>>
>> Yeah. There is interest to integrate cerebro. It's just very unclear
>> (to me at least) what's the path to get there...
>
> If you want to see what needs to be done to "integrate cerebro", then
> please examine
>
>  
> http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/mstone/telepathy-cerebro;a=blob;f=tpc/service.py;hb=HEAD
>
> When someone fills in those stubs correctly, we will have a Cerebro
> connection manager. That ought to be enough to drive the mesh view. Then
> someone will need to implement D-Bus and Stream tubes (not stubbed out
> here). That will permit activity sharing.
>
> The basic hang-up here is that our currently shareable activities are
> built on Telepathy but there are few OLPC-related people who understand
> and enjoy the Telepathy stack. Poly, according to his perogative, has
> decided that building a Cerebro connection manager is not a good use of
> his time. The Collabora staff most familiar with Telepathy are, at my
> request, concentrating on Gadget for us for August.

Thanks for the explanation, Michael.

I guess the only part I don't understand is why Poly would consider
writing a connection manager not a good use of his time. Telepathy is
the API used by both activities and the sugar shell. And unless
someone demonstrate that it's inherently broken and provides a better
alternative, I don't see it going away. Also as far as I understood
Cerebro doesn't provide an API that can be used directly by activities
yet (included the non-python ones).

Marco
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Re: cerebro in sugar (was Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed)

2008-06-10 Thread Michael Stone
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:06:17AM +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I still don't understand what's in the path to integrate cerebro into
> > sugar. You proposed to change the API and of course you were asked to
> > justify this.
> >
> > Seems to me like now everybody agrees on coding a cerebro connection
> > manager, which would bring cerebro's benefits without having to change
> > the API.
> >
> > What's the problem?
> 
> Yeah. There is interest to integrate cerebro. It's just very unclear
> (to me at least) what's the path to get there...

If you want to see what needs to be done to "integrate cerebro", then
please examine 

  
http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/mstone/telepathy-cerebro;a=blob;f=tpc/service.py;hb=HEAD

When someone fills in those stubs correctly, we will have a Cerebro
connection manager. That ought to be enough to drive the mesh view. Then
someone will need to implement D-Bus and Stream tubes (not stubbed out
here). That will permit activity sharing.

The basic hang-up here is that our currently shareable activities are
built on Telepathy but there are few OLPC-related people who understand
and enjoy the Telepathy stack. Poly, according to his perogative, has
decided that building a Cerebro connection manager is not a good use of
his time. The Collabora staff most familiar with Telepathy are, at my
request, concentrating on Gadget for us for August. 

Questions?

Michael
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Re: cerebro in sugar (was Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed)

2008-06-10 Thread Marco Pesenti Gritti
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I thought I covered this scenario quite thoroughly; cerebro enabled
>> about 70 laptops to chat in a simple mesh, even without using an access
>> point or a school server. I got no useful comments, nor was there any
>> significant interest to plan for sugar integration, so I think it's time
>> to move forward with a different test.
>
> I still don't understand what's in the path to integrate cerebro into
> sugar. You proposed to change the API and of course you were asked to
> justify this.
>
> Seems to me like now everybody agrees on coding a cerebro connection
> manager, which would bring cerebro's benefits without having to change
> the API.
>
> What's the problem?

Yeah. There is interest to integrate cerebro. It's just very unclear
(to me at least) what's the path to get there...

Marco
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cerebro in sugar (was Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed)

2008-06-10 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I thought I covered this scenario quite thoroughly; cerebro enabled
> about 70 laptops to chat in a simple mesh, even without using an access
> point or a school server. I got no useful comments, nor was there any
> significant interest to plan for sugar integration, so I think it's time
> to move forward with a different test.

I still don't understand what's in the path to integrate cerebro into
sugar. You proposed to change the API and of course you were asked to
justify this.

Seems to me like now everybody agrees on coding a cerebro connection
manager, which would bring cerebro's benefits without having to change
the API.

What's the problem?

Regards,

Tomeu
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-09 Thread Michael Stone
On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 09:55:20AM +0200, Guillaume Desmottes wrote:
> Latest Salut release has a new Avahi abstraction layer (see #6658).
> It's still unclear if Cerebro should be integrated as an Salut backend
> or in its own connection manager though.

What lack of clarity do you observe?  

From the Collabora work statement:

  Integrating Cerebro into Telepathy framework
  

  We've spoken to Polychronis about how Cerebro works, and attended his
  presentation last week, and now have a better understanding of the
  functions provided by Cerebro, and how it could be best integrated
  into Telepathy framework for use by the presence service, Sugar and
  activities. We propose to continue work on the “telepathy-cerebro”
  connection manager which implements the Telepathy API by using the
  communications provided by Cerebro, so that we can make its
  functionality available to the existing software on the XOs without
  modification, and allow observations of the behaviour and reliability
  of Cerebro in our test environments.

http://teach.laptop.org/~mstone/collabora.txt

Michael

P.S. - For hints, see http://dev.laptop.org/git/users/mstone/telepathy-cerebro
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-09 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Hi Kim,

Kim Quirk wrote:
>
> Poly - What I can't tell from your progress reports is exactly what is 
> needed for us to get to the next level. On the surface it sounds like 
> you had to rebuild chat to make it work with cerebro. If so, does that 
> mean all activities would have to be modified to a new API? 

No. I refactored Chat to the Xavier activity 
(http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/ypod/xavier-activity;a=summary) as a 
proof of concept that collaboration could be solely based on Cerebro.

> What else is needed?

Create a connection manager for Cerebro. This would also be a great 
chance for OLPC to become more intimate with the internals of telepathy, 
which is why maybe someone from OLPC should take on this task? I think 
we should aim to have that implemented and tested by August. Some work 
has been done on this by Michael Stone already.

> How does the cerebro solution fit into the rest of the stack and the 
> other technologies we are working on for 8.2.0 (August) and future 
> releases?

Cerebro should totally replace salut - the former is a superset, in 
terms of functionality, of the latter (eg. cerebro additionally offers 
network layout, distance information, more efficient file transfer etc), 
while it scales about an order of magnitude better than salut. 
Furthermore, cerebro would never "black-out" with broadcast storms, so 
if there is a jabber server present, it will always be discoverable.

>
> If the cerebro solution is still in research and there are a lot of 
> issues that still need to be worked out before we can release it, then 
> we need someone to help track all the issues and help resolve them 
> through the stack in order to get something to release stage.

It depends on how you define "still in research". If that means not 
having been used by thousands of children around the world already, then 
yes it's still in research, but so is most of the XO's software. 
Realistically speaking, cerebro has been tested more extensively than 
the rest of the collaboration stack, not only on tens of XOs, but other 
platforms also.

> Let's work with Michail on this as he probably needs to take the lead.
>
> As a first step, I will order 10 laptops for Poly to find permanent 
> homes for throughout the MIT campus.

thank you.

>
> Kim

p.


-- 
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Graduate student
Viral Communications
MIT Media Lab
Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-09 Thread Guillaume Desmottes
Le dimanche 08 juin 2008 à 12:11 -0400, Michail Bletsas a écrit :
> >  b) collabora did some work to abstract out avahi, in theory the
> > groundwork is present for a cerebro backend. 
> That's more like wishful thinking at this point. We need to push more
> on that end. 
> 
Latest Salut release has a new Avahi abstraction layer (see #6658).
It's still unclear if Cerebro should be integrated as an Salut backend
or in its own connection manager though.


G.

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Michail Bletsas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/08/2008 12:25:13 PM:

> While we're talking about networking:
> 
> From discussions with the OLSRd guys, one way they made their
> protocols work well in dense networks was to aggressively use *all*
> the 802.11*a* as well as g channels.  802.11a has 24+ non-overlapping
> channels (in some regulatory environments) which could go a long way
> towards keeping the number of nodes on any given slice of spectrum
> below the 40-node 802.11 MAC limits.
> 
> It appears that our wireless chipset supports 802.11a, although our
> frontend and antennas are apparently tuned for 802.11b/g.  That could
> be an advantage: in dense scenarios we actually *want* to keep tx
> power and rx sensitivity low (at the expense of some multihop routes).
>  Michalis, does exploring 802.11a operation in some school
> environments seem reasonable to you?

The R.F. power amplifier on our current radio doesn't support 5Ghz.

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Quoting "C. Scott Ananian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> While we're talking about networking:
>
> From discussions with the OLSRd guys, one way they made their
> protocols work well in dense networks was to aggressively use *all*
> the 802.11*a* as well as g channels.  802.11a has 24+ non-overlapping
> channels (in some regulatory environments) which could go a long way
> towards keeping the number of nodes on any given slice of spectrum
> below the 40-node 802.11 MAC limits.
>
> It appears that our wireless chipset supports 802.11a, although our
> frontend and antennas are apparently tuned for 802.11b/g.  That could
> be an advantage: in dense scenarios we actually *want* to keep tx
> power and rx sensitivity low (at the expense of some multihop routes).
> Michalis, does exploring 802.11a operation in some school
> environments seem reasonable to you?
>  --scott


Are there going to be 24 different access points too? Don't forget that 
you will
then need to allow users to communicate across different channels, so you will
need a bridge at radio level. I thought the point with having three distinct
channels (1,6,11) was that it provides some sort of scalability at 
radio level,
while the cost of "connecting" the three channels was relatively low.

p.
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread C. Scott Ananian
While we're talking about networking:

>From discussions with the OLSRd guys, one way they made their
protocols work well in dense networks was to aggressively use *all*
the 802.11*a* as well as g channels.  802.11a has 24+ non-overlapping
channels (in some regulatory environments) which could go a long way
towards keeping the number of nodes on any given slice of spectrum
below the 40-node 802.11 MAC limits.

It appears that our wireless chipset supports 802.11a, although our
frontend and antennas are apparently tuned for 802.11b/g.  That could
be an advantage: in dense scenarios we actually *want* to keep tx
power and rx sensitivity low (at the expense of some multihop routes).
 Michalis, does exploring 802.11a operation in some school
environments seem reasonable to you?
  --scott

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Quoting Michail Bletsas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/08/2008 12:00:30 PM:
>
>> one more (which may be considered a varient of d)
>> i) 802.11s meshing in bad RF environments
>>
>> this is where there are a small number of XO machines (so you don't have
>
>> the 802.11s traffic issues), but where there are a large number of other
>
>> 802.11 devices in the area
>>
>> a unofficial testbed for this would be to take a half dozen XO machines
> to
>> a tech conference and try to run them.
>>
> What you are describing is nt far away from the wireless environment at
> 1CC...
>
> M.
>

Exactly. RF noise is not the problem in a mesh network, or at least not 
anymore.
The 70-node test at 1CC showed that what is important is _how_ you use the
network, not how much noise you have.

p.

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Michail Bletsas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/08/2008 12:00:30 PM:


> 
> one more (which may be considered a varient of d)
> i) 802.11s meshing in bad RF environments
> 
> this is where there are a small number of XO machines (so you don't have 

> the 802.11s traffic issues), but where there are a large number of other 

> 802.11 devices in the area
> 
> a unofficial testbed for this would be to take a half dozen XO machines 
to 
> a tech conference and try to run them.
> 
What you are describing is nt far away from the wireless environment at 
1CC...

M.
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Michail Bletsas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/08/2008 11:33:15 AM:

> To clarify, there are at least seven different directions to follow 
here:
>  a) telepathy-based collaboration on 802.11g networks
>  b) telepathy-with-cerebro-backend collaboration on 802.11g networks
>  c) cerebro-based collaboration in 802.11g networks.
>  d) 802.11s meshing in dense networks
>  e) 802.11s meshing in sparse (wide-area) networks
>  f) 802.11s Mesh Portal Point functionality (bridging a school 802.11g
> network to a neighborhood 802.11s network)
>  g) OLSRd wide-area meshing on an 802.11g sparse (wide-area) network
>  h) plain ol' 802.11g in 100+ node schools
> 
> Let me try to summarize current status on a few of these:
>  a) what we're currently deploying.  believed working for ~20
> machines, but there are problem reports from the field.
The number depends on the traffic paterns of the specific applications.
Chat will scale to much higher numbers than write for example.
Careful optimization and debugging is the short term action path.
APs that support high rate multicasts can also help here.



>  b) collabora did some work to abstract out avahi, in theory the
> groundwork is present for a cerebro backend.
That's more like wishful thinking at this point. We need to push more on 
that end.

>  c) Poly has demonstrated this with 70 laptops (limited only by the
> size of his testbed); would require modification of activities.
Cerebro will work just fine over a mesh transport also. It uses nearest 
neighbor broadcast only.
We need to settle on a solution for #6211 soon and we need to get some 
form of Cerebro into Joyride (not-necessarily integrated with Telepathy - 
just a simple D-BUS/UI integration with some Cerebr-ized apps like chat 
and file tranfer)

>  d) nortel and our old mesh testbed looked at this, but I believe
> Michalis' current opinion is that we should be using APs in this
> scenario.  So, not important?
The bottom line is that there is no need to use a multi-hop transport with 
all of its associated overhead, when everybody can talk to everybody else. 
We could also be using simple ad-hoc mode, however we don't support that 
from a UI perspective. So, for the moment, we suggest that people use APs. 
In the long term we should be able to address the intermediate cases 
(between sparse and dense) via better broadcast support on the mesh (ex: 
Scalable Broadcast Algorithm, Ad-Hoc Broadacast Protocol) Marvell will be 
working on this one.
It is not clear if we have the necessary memory/cpu resources on the 8388 
but it seems a lot more feasible on the 8682.

>  e) No one looking at this.  Poly has proposed a testbed for this.
I wouldn't call that Wide Area since it involves mobile devices. It's more 
of a MANET and less of a WMN (Wireless Mesh Network)
We have done testing in the past and Polychronis' has been doing it in 
various forms for a long time now.

>  f) yanni is looking at this?  No test bed yet.
Ricardo and Yanni (whose last day was Thursday) looked at that, there is 
the original scheme adapted so that it doesn't take much memory and it 
awaits integration in the builds and (more importantly on the UI)
And given that we have the Active Antenna to think under the same context 
as well as an Ethernet adapter and that it operates at layer-3, lets stop 
calling it "MPP" and call it "Internet Sharing" from now on. I will submit 
a functional spec.


>  g) demonstrated in vienna, berlin, and athens with 600+, 800+, and
> ~2000 nodes.  Tradeoff: we can't route w/ CPU power turned off;
> doesn't make progress towards getting 802.11s working for gen2,
> probably requires further tuning for optimal performance in dense
> networks.
Again, we are interested in a MANET scenario much more than a WMN. We are 
doing the work so that code like that can run on the XO (in the form of 
the thin mac driver). I am sure that given the proper tools present on the 
XO, people will come up with interesting ways to use them. I don't see us 
putting a lot of resources in WMN operation though.


>  h) Ricardo looking at this?  No test bed that I know of. We know that
> tweaks are required to get any 802.11x standard to work in a dense
> scenario: media access protocols, probe request/response, beacon
> tuning, etc.  Marvell's done some of this tuning already, but we don't
> have any local resources validating/verifying behavior.
Why is that different from a) ? Will it be really hard to make spectrum 
out of thin air ? (OLPC's form of Alchemy I guess ;-).
Setting aside the fact that we still leak packets/frames occasionaly in 
the layer-2 stack, this is more about layer-7 than layer-2


> 
> Which should we invest in?  Which should we invest in most heavily?
> Let the politicking commence.
And let common sense prevail

>  --scott
> 
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread david
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008, C. Scott Ananian wrote:

> To clarify, there are at least seven different directions to follow here:
> a) telepathy-based collaboration on 802.11g networks
> b) telepathy-with-cerebro-backend collaboration on 802.11g networks
> c) cerebro-based collaboration in 802.11g networks.
> d) 802.11s meshing in dense networks
> e) 802.11s meshing in sparse (wide-area) networks
> f) 802.11s Mesh Portal Point functionality (bridging a school 802.11g
> network to a neighborhood 802.11s network)
> g) OLSRd wide-area meshing on an 802.11g sparse (wide-area) network
> h) plain ol' 802.11g in 100+ node schools

one more (which may be considered a varient of d)
i) 802.11s meshing in bad RF environments

this is where there are a small number of XO machines (so you don't have 
the 802.11s traffic issues), but where there are a large number of other 
802.11 devices in the area

a unofficial testbed for this would be to take a half dozen XO machines to 
a tech conference and try to run them.

David Lang


> Let me try to summarize current status on a few of these:
> a) what we're currently deploying.  believed working for ~20
> machines, but there are problem reports from the field.
> b) collabora did some work to abstract out avahi, in theory the
> groundwork is present for a cerebro backend.
> c) Poly has demonstrated this with 70 laptops (limited only by the
> size of his testbed); would require modification of activities.
> d) nortel and our old mesh testbed looked at this, but I believe
> Michalis' current opinion is that we should be using APs in this
> scenario.  So, not important?
> e) No one looking at this.  Poly has proposed a testbed for this.
> f) yanni is looking at this?  No test bed yet.
> g) demonstrated in vienna, berlin, and athens with 600+, 800+, and
> ~2000 nodes.  Tradeoff: we can't route w/ CPU power turned off;
> doesn't make progress towards getting 802.11s working for gen2,
> probably requires further tuning for optimal performance in dense
> networks.
> h) Ricardo looking at this?  No test bed that I know of. We know that
> tweaks are required to get any 802.11x standard to work in a dense
> scenario: media access protocols, probe request/response, beacon
> tuning, etc.  Marvell's done some of this tuning already, but we don't
> have any local resources validating/verifying behavior.
>
> Which should we invest in?  Which should we invest in most heavily?
> Let the politicking commence.
> --scott
>
>
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Michail Bletsas
There is a lot more discussion about this than it needs to be.
Polychronis requires some minimal help from us in the form of laptops in 
order to pursue his goals which are very well alligned with ours.
We provide the resources and we move forward.

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread C. Scott Ananian
To clarify, there are at least seven different directions to follow here:
 a) telepathy-based collaboration on 802.11g networks
 b) telepathy-with-cerebro-backend collaboration on 802.11g networks
 c) cerebro-based collaboration in 802.11g networks.
 d) 802.11s meshing in dense networks
 e) 802.11s meshing in sparse (wide-area) networks
 f) 802.11s Mesh Portal Point functionality (bridging a school 802.11g
network to a neighborhood 802.11s network)
 g) OLSRd wide-area meshing on an 802.11g sparse (wide-area) network
 h) plain ol' 802.11g in 100+ node schools

Let me try to summarize current status on a few of these:
 a) what we're currently deploying.  believed working for ~20
machines, but there are problem reports from the field.
 b) collabora did some work to abstract out avahi, in theory the
groundwork is present for a cerebro backend.
 c) Poly has demonstrated this with 70 laptops (limited only by the
size of his testbed); would require modification of activities.
 d) nortel and our old mesh testbed looked at this, but I believe
Michalis' current opinion is that we should be using APs in this
scenario.  So, not important?
 e) No one looking at this.  Poly has proposed a testbed for this.
 f) yanni is looking at this?  No test bed yet.
 g) demonstrated in vienna, berlin, and athens with 600+, 800+, and
~2000 nodes.  Tradeoff: we can't route w/ CPU power turned off;
doesn't make progress towards getting 802.11s working for gen2,
probably requires further tuning for optimal performance in dense
networks.
 h) Ricardo looking at this?  No test bed that I know of. We know that
tweaks are required to get any 802.11x standard to work in a dense
scenario: media access protocols, probe request/response, beacon
tuning, etc.  Marvell's done some of this tuning already, but we don't
have any local resources validating/verifying behavior.

Which should we invest in?  Which should we invest in most heavily?
Let the politicking commence.
 --scott

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-08 Thread Kim Quirk
Thanks Aaron! It is a good idea to use the projectdb, in general, although I
am hesitant to recommend people ask for more than a couple of laptops there.
We will actually not be able to meet very many requests for >2 or 3 laptops
as the supply for the Developer's program is limited.

It probably requires a wider discussion to get a quantity of 'free' laptops
to any group. So this has been a good discussion.

Having said that, I would encourage people to sign up for a laptop through
the developer's program, if you don't have one yet.

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Developers_Program

- kim

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Aaron Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> would it make sense to at least enter that request into the projectdb since
> that is what it was made for?
> (apart from the feature requests which will be taken care of at some time,
> it does hold the data and hence it can help in tracking the XOs)
>
>
>
> On a different note: in larger mesh networks (athens wireless comes to
> mind) you do encounter strange effects when you go to a couple of hundred of
> nodes. So I would not underestimate the need for a massive test. Massive
> means maybe 1000 ;-)
>
> After all you can reach that number of 1000 kids quite easily.
>
>
> a.
>
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:55 AM, Kim Quirk wrote:
>
>  Some thoughts from a QA perspective:
>>
>> I consider the 100 laptops that I budgeted, ordered and help install in
>> Peabody to be the QA "collaboration testbed", which is expected to be used
>> to recreate problems from the field and test out next release solutions.
>> Since we had to dismantle Peabody, most of these laptops (about 70 of them)
>> have been loaned to Poly in 1CC.  Now that we have both a QA Lead and an
>> intern, I expect we will need to refocus 20-30 laptops back to the QA
>> testbed full time and we have signed a lease on the new test facility, which
>> will be ready for the full 100 laptop test bed (or perhaps 200 laptops) by
>> mid-July.
>>
>> Secondly, we also need to be working on the longer term solutions, such as
>> those being investigated by Poly, Nortel, Michail, and Ricardo. If this also
>> requires a 100 laptop test bed then we need to build one. We need to order
>> these laptops and start making permanent homes for them. If the first step
>> is to order 10 laptops, I will order them.
>>
>> Poly - What I can't tell from your progress reports is exactly what is
>> needed for us to get to the next level. On the surface it sounds like you
>> had to rebuild chat to make it work with cerebro. If so, does that mean all
>> activities would have to be modified to a new API? What else is needed? How
>> does the cerebro solution fit into the rest of the stack and the other
>> technologies we are working on for 8.2.0 (August) and future releases?
>>
>> If the cerebro solution is still in research and there are a lot of issues
>> that still need to be worked out before we can release it, then we need
>> someone to help track all the issues and help resolve them through the stack
>> in order to get something to release stage. Let's work with Michail on this
>> as he probably needs to take the lead.
>>
>> As a first step, I will order 10 laptops for Poly to find permanent homes
>> for throughout the MIT campus.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> Honestly, I'm getting very burned out over the politicking here.
>> Ricardo, Polychronis, and the Nortel guys seem to be the ones doing
>> the real heavy lifting here on the mesh network.  When they ask for
>> something, I think we should give it to them.  Ricardo and Polychronis
>> agree that a sparse network testbed may be useful -- in addition to,
>> not instead of, a dense collaboration testbed -- why can't we just
>> say, yes, do that then.
>>
>> Wad is right, we still need a collaboration testbed, but as Poly
>> points out this is currently Collabora's area of responsibility.
>>  --scott
>>
>> --
>>( http://cscott.net/ )
>> ___
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>>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread Aaron Kaplan

would it make sense to at least enter that request into the projectdb  
since that is what it was made for?
(apart from the feature requests which will be taken care of at some  
time, it does hold the data and hence it can help in tracking the XOs)



On a different note: in larger mesh networks (athens wireless comes  
to mind) you do encounter strange effects when you go to a couple of  
hundred of nodes. So I would not underestimate the need for a massive  
test. Massive means maybe 1000 ;-)

After all you can reach that number of 1000 kids quite easily.


a.


On Jun 8, 2008, at 5:55 AM, Kim Quirk wrote:

> Some thoughts from a QA perspective:
>
> I consider the 100 laptops that I budgeted, ordered and help  
> install in Peabody to be the QA "collaboration testbed", which is  
> expected to be used to recreate problems from the field and test  
> out next release solutions. Since we had to dismantle Peabody, most  
> of these laptops (about 70 of them) have been loaned to Poly in  
> 1CC.  Now that we have both a QA Lead and an intern, I expect we  
> will need to refocus 20-30 laptops back to the QA testbed full time  
> and we have signed a lease on the new test facility, which will be  
> ready for the full 100 laptop test bed (or perhaps 200 laptops) by  
> mid-July.
>
> Secondly, we also need to be working on the longer term solutions,  
> such as those being investigated by Poly, Nortel, Michail, and  
> Ricardo. If this also requires a 100 laptop test bed then we need  
> to build one. We need to order these laptops and start making  
> permanent homes for them. If the first step is to order 10 laptops,  
> I will order them.
>
> Poly - What I can't tell from your progress reports is exactly what  
> is needed for us to get to the next level. On the surface it sounds  
> like you had to rebuild chat to make it work with cerebro. If so,  
> does that mean all activities would have to be modified to a new  
> API? What else is needed? How does the cerebro solution fit into  
> the rest of the stack and the other technologies we are working on  
> for 8.2.0 (August) and future releases?
>
> If the cerebro solution is still in research and there are a lot of  
> issues that still need to be worked out before we can release it,  
> then we need someone to help track all the issues and help resolve  
> them through the stack in order to get something to release stage.  
> Let's work with Michail on this as he probably needs to take the lead.
>
> As a first step, I will order 10 laptops for Poly to find permanent  
> homes for throughout the MIT campus.
>
> Kim
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM, C. Scott Ananian  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Honestly, I'm getting very burned out over the politicking here.
> Ricardo, Polychronis, and the Nortel guys seem to be the ones doing
> the real heavy lifting here on the mesh network.  When they ask for
> something, I think we should give it to them.  Ricardo and Polychronis
> agree that a sparse network testbed may be useful -- in addition to,
> not instead of, a dense collaboration testbed -- why can't we just
> say, yes, do that then.
>
> Wad is right, we still need a collaboration testbed, but as Poly
> points out this is currently Collabora's area of responsibility.
>  --scott
>
> --
> ( http://cscott.net/ )
> ___
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread Kim Quirk
Some thoughts from a QA perspective:

I consider the 100 laptops that I budgeted, ordered and help install in
Peabody to be the QA "collaboration testbed", which is expected to be used
to recreate problems from the field and test out next release solutions.
Since we had to dismantle Peabody, most of these laptops (about 70 of them)
have been loaned to Poly in 1CC.  Now that we have both a QA Lead and an
intern, I expect we will need to refocus 20-30 laptops back to the QA
testbed full time and we have signed a lease on the new test facility, which
will be ready for the full 100 laptop test bed (or perhaps 200 laptops) by
mid-July.

Secondly, we also need to be working on the longer term solutions, such as
those being investigated by Poly, Nortel, Michail, and Ricardo. If this also
requires a 100 laptop test bed then we need to build one. We need to order
these laptops and start making permanent homes for them. If the first step
is to order 10 laptops, I will order them.

Poly - What I can't tell from your progress reports is exactly what is
needed for us to get to the next level. On the surface it sounds like you
had to rebuild chat to make it work with cerebro. If so, does that mean all
activities would have to be modified to a new API? What else is needed? How
does the cerebro solution fit into the rest of the stack and the other
technologies we are working on for 8.2.0 (August) and future releases?

If the cerebro solution is still in research and there are a lot of issues
that still need to be worked out before we can release it, then we need
someone to help track all the issues and help resolve them through the stack
in order to get something to release stage. Let's work with Michail on this
as he probably needs to take the lead.

As a first step, I will order 10 laptops for Poly to find permanent homes
for throughout the MIT campus.

Kim


On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:02 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Honestly, I'm getting very burned out over the politicking here.
> Ricardo, Polychronis, and the Nortel guys seem to be the ones doing
> the real heavy lifting here on the mesh network.  When they ask for
> something, I think we should give it to them.  Ricardo and Polychronis
> agree that a sparse network testbed may be useful -- in addition to,
> not instead of, a dense collaboration testbed -- why can't we just
> say, yes, do that then.
>
> Wad is right, we still need a collaboration testbed, but as Poly
> points out this is currently Collabora's area of responsibility.
>  --scott
>
> --
> ( http://cscott.net/ )
> ___
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread C. Scott Ananian
Honestly, I'm getting very burned out over the politicking here.
Ricardo, Polychronis, and the Nortel guys seem to be the ones doing
the real heavy lifting here on the mesh network.  When they ask for
something, I think we should give it to them.  Ricardo and Polychronis
agree that a sparse network testbed may be useful -- in addition to,
not instead of, a dense collaboration testbed -- why can't we just
say, yes, do that then.

Wad is right, we still need a collaboration testbed, but as Poly
points out this is currently Collabora's area of responsibility.
 --scott

-- 
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Wad,


John Watlington wrote:
> I would like to point out that both Marvell and Nortel have mesh testbeds
> (100 and 50 nodes, respectedly).Our problem has been that no-one has
> a collaboration testbed.

A collaboration test is all I did in the past 
(http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Simple_mesh_test_(Cerebro) ) and all I 
proposed for the future. If you want to do a collaboration test the 
right way you _must_ measure your stack's overhead against the number of 
participating nodes, improve your design and implementation and start 
over. And this should be done not with 2 or 3, but with 10s of laptops. 
To the best of my knowledge, this has never been done; OLPC is only 
passively testing (with 10s of laptops but does not contribute to the 
implementation of telepathy) what Collabora is "guessing" that will work 
(no real world tests done by Collabora).


>> I must admit that it is rather hard for OLPC to act on such results. 
>> It may be for lack of resources, but I'm speaking for myself when I 
>> say that OLPC has a hard time trusting developers unless they're on 
>> its payroll, especially for core parts of its software (with the 
>> exception of Marco? ;-). I think commitment, communication and 
>> roadmaps is the answer to this problem.
>
> Lack of resources and QA testing.
> As Martin put it, we can't take Linus' approach of putting stuff
> into our build and letting the customer test it.If we put it in
> our build, it should have been tested, tested, tested.

Wad, no matter how much you test the current collaboration stack, it 
will just never work like you'd like it to. Why is this so hard to 
understand? And you've already taken Linus' approach - we've seen 
reports from Uruguay from teachers failing to initiate collaboration, 
even in 6 groups of 2 laptops 
(http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-May/013921.html).

p.



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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread John Watlington

On Jun 7, 2008, at 2:31 AM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos wrote:

> C. Scott Ananian wrote:
>> Last I checked, Poly wasn't an employee of OLPC.
> I don't think this is a valid argument either:
>
> Not being an employee of OLPC does not mean I 'm willing to waste  
> my time on something OLPC has no interest in. Like most other  
> volunteers, work at OLPC is interesting because it's technically  
> challenging and globally significant. If the work is not in OLPC's  
> radar of interest, then something's wrong and it should be discussed.

And I didn't mean that OLPC isn't interested in making the mesh work.
The opposite is the truth.But we HAVE to prioritize the testing  
being
done to the scenarios we are deploying into.

> Being an employee of OLPC does not mean your technical solution is  
> better than mine either (me being a volunteer). Please don't take  
> this personally or literally. Having such a large pool of  
> volunteers means you may have to assess your software stack more  
> often against what volunteers can offer you.

Companies that aren't resource starved frequently fund different  
approaches.
Volunteers can make that possible even in resource starved companies.

>> I don't think we can or should make him fix our dense network  
>> problems, or run our mesh
>> testbed.
>
> Heh, I think I actually offered a solution on the first and  
> volunteered for the second, but was put off until OLPC figures out  
> what how to proceed with the mesh testbed.

What I am saying is that I don't believe a mesh testbed addresses
OLPC's customer's immediate needs.A collaboration testbed does.

>> We should, however, give him all the support he needs (and
>> he's only asking for ~10 laptops) to create the sparse network  
>> testbed
>> he's interested in, since we will need that after 8.2, and if it's to
>> be ready then someone needs to start working on it now.

I read more than ten.   Ten laptops aren't worth the time already  
spent on
this thread.

I would like to point out that both Marvell and Nortel have mesh  
testbeds
(100 and 50 nodes, respectedly).Our problem has been that no-one has
a collaboration testbed.

>>> The 8.2 release is the one that Peru will be using next year (2009).
>>> It is very important that any MPP functionality that is added back
>>> to the build be very well tested in the dense school wifi scenario
>>> by 8.2 freeze to ensure happy customers.
>>
>> Yes, continued wireless testing is important.  We also need to be
>> willing to act on the results of that testing.
>
> I must admit that it is rather hard for OLPC to act on such  
> results. It may be for lack of resources, but I'm speaking for  
> myself when I say that OLPC has a hard time trusting developers  
> unless they're on its payroll, especially for core parts of its  
> software (with the exception of Marco? ;-). I think commitment,  
> communication and roadmaps is the answer to this problem.

Lack of resources and QA testing.
As Martin put it, we can't take Linus' approach of putting stuff
into our build and letting the customer test it.If we put it in
our build, it should have been tested, tested, tested.

I'm sorry, but I've spent too much time in the last week being
told what doesn't work.   If the laptops can't communicate well
in a school, OLPC fails.

wad

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-07 Thread Samuel Klein
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> C. Scott Ananian wrote:
> > Last I checked, Poly wasn't an employee of OLPC.
> I don't think this is a valid argument either:

Not being an employee of OLPC does not mean I 'm willing to waste my
> time on something OLPC has no interest in. Like most other volunteers,
> work at OLPC is interesting because it's technically challenging and
> globally significant. If the work is not in OLPC's radar of interest,
> then something's wrong and it should be discussed.
>

I'm glad you said this; I was going to chime in with the same thought.
Providing a global sense of significance and priority -- through accurate
and complete transmission of feedback, and through review of all ideas being
offered or tested -- is one of the most valuable things OLPC can offer its
contributors and supporters.

SJ
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
C. Scott Ananian wrote:
> Last I checked, Poly wasn't an employee of OLPC.  
I don't think this is a valid argument either:

Not being an employee of OLPC does not mean I 'm willing to waste my 
time on something OLPC has no interest in. Like most other volunteers, 
work at OLPC is interesting because it's technically challenging and 
globally significant. If the work is not in OLPC's radar of interest, 
then something's wrong and it should be discussed.

Being an employee of OLPC does not mean your technical solution is 
better than mine either (me being a volunteer). Please don't take this 
personally or literally. Having such a large pool of volunteers means 
you may have to assess your software stack more often against what 
volunteers can offer you.

> I don't think we can or should make him fix our dense network problems, or 
> run our mesh
> testbed. 

Heh, I think I actually offered a solution on the first and volunteered 
for the second, but was put off until OLPC figures out what how to 
proceed with the mesh testbed.

> We should, however, give him all the support he needs (and
> he's only asking for ~10 laptops) to create the sparse network testbed
> he's interested in, since we will need that after 8.2, and if it's to
> be ready then someone needs to start working on it now.
>
>   
>> The 8.2 release is the one that Peru will be using next year (2009).
>> It is very important that any MPP functionality that is added back
>> to the build be very well tested in the dense school wifi scenario
>> by 8.2 freeze to ensure happy customers.
>> 
>
> Yes, continued wireless testing is important.  We also need to be
> willing to act on the results of that testing.
>   

I must admit that it is rather hard for OLPC to act on such results. It 
may be for lack of resources, but I'm speaking for myself when I say 
that OLPC has a hard time trusting developers unless they're on its 
payroll, especially for core parts of its software (with the exception 
of Marco? ;-). I think commitment, communication and roadmaps is the 
answer to this problem.

p.



-- 
Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Graduate student
Viral Communications
MIT Media Lab
Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Hi Wad,

John Watlington wrote:
>
> Poly,
> In theory, your suggestion sounds good.   In practice, I think
> it is advanced research winning out over fixing real problems.

Heh as you know, research is usually done based on simulations, not by 
deploying such cumbersome, large area networks ;-)

>
> In the spirit of testing realistic scenarios where we are currently
> deployed and failing, I would instead strongly urge concentrating
> on testing 70 laptops in a small space (no larger than 1CC's devel
> area) with two WiFi access points.

I thought I covered this scenario quite thoroughly; cerebro enabled 
about 70 laptops to chat in a simple mesh, even without using an access 
point or a school server. I got no useful comments, nor was there any 
significant interest to plan for sugar integration, so I think it's time 
to move forward with a different test.

>
> This may not help the mesh routing work immediately, but it would
> help us verify why teachers in Uruguay are complaining about an
> inability to connect.

I was not presented with any specific scenarios from Uruguay to test 
with cerebro, which I would be very willing to test. Again, I insist on 
continuing to develop cerebro instead of testing the regular XO's 
collaboration stack because the performance of the former is at least an 
order of magnitude better.

>
> It would also allow testing of realistic methods of automatically
> becoming an MPP.  As Michail has rightfully pointed out and
> Uruguay and Peru have been requesting, we need a way
> of extending the WiFi network in the school out to the village.

This is exactly one of the goals of this test - extend the network 
outside the classroom, into the village.

>
> I don't see us getting far enough along with changes to mesh   
> routing, 

There never was any intent on changing mesh routing.

> or replacing parts of salut with cerebro in time for the
> 8.2 release.  

I believe there is no comparison between salut and cerebro (please 
correct me if I'm wrong). As for the 8.2 release, I was never asked for 
an integration plan. We will never make it into any release, unless we 
start planning.

> But I do believe that Michail can figure out a decent
> way to gate the MPP functionality by then.
>
> The 8.2 release is the one that Peru will be using next year (2009).
> It is very important that any MPP functionality that is added back
> to the build be very well tested in the dense school wifi scenario
> by 8.2 freeze to ensure happy customers.

I don't really see how this relates to the proposed test. MPP is not, 
currently, the objective.

p.



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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread C. Scott Ananian
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:37 AM, John Watlington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In theory, your suggestion sounds good.   In practice, I think
> it is advanced research winning out over fixing real problems.

Last I checked, Poly wasn't an employee of OLPC.  I don't think we can
or should make him fix our dense network problems, or run our mesh
testbed.  We should, however, give him all the support he needs (and
he's only asking for ~10 laptops) to create the sparse network testbed
he's interested in, since we will need that after 8.2, and if it's to
be ready then someone needs to start working on it now.

> The 8.2 release is the one that Peru will be using next year (2009).
> It is very important that any MPP functionality that is added back
> to the build be very well tested in the dense school wifi scenario
> by 8.2 freeze to ensure happy customers.

Yes, continued wireless testing is important.  We also need to be
willing to act on the results of that testing.
  --scott

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread John Watlington

Poly,
 In theory, your suggestion sounds good.   In practice, I think
it is advanced research winning out over fixing real problems.

 In the spirit of testing realistic scenarios where we are currently
deployed and failing, I would instead strongly urge concentrating
on testing 70 laptops in a small space (no larger than 1CC's devel
area) with two WiFi access points.

This may not help the mesh routing work immediately, but it would
help us verify why teachers in Uruguay are complaining about an
inability to connect.

It would also allow testing of realistic methods of automatically
becoming an MPP.  As Michail has rightfully pointed out and
Uruguay and Peru have been requesting, we need a way
of extending the WiFi network in the school out to the village.

I don't see us getting far enough along with changes to mesh
routing, or replacing parts of salut with cerebro in time for the
8.2 release.But I do believe that Michail can figure out a decent
way to gate the MPP functionality by then.

The 8.2 release is the one that Peru will be using next year (2009).
It is very important that any MPP functionality that is added back
to the build be very well tested in the dense school wifi scenario
by 8.2 freeze to ensure happy customers.

wad

On Jun 6, 2008, at 4:31 PM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos wrote:

> In the spirit of escalating collaboration/communication use cases to
> more realistic scenarios, I 'd like to propose creating the following
> multihop network testbed.
>
> This testbed will involve about 70 nodes, but most are already  
> deployed
> (about 50 nodes already exist at 1CC and 8 at the Media Lab). About
> 10-12 new XOs are necessary to form the multi-hop network:
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms? 
> hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116432384591811010127.00 
> 044f046ce8f6f83aae3
>
> This testbed will be used to:
>
> 1) stress communication over the mesh network; this can be as large  
> as a
> 10-hop network spanning from my apartment (Eastgate) to a friend's
> apartment in Ashdown.
>
> 2) Test collaboration using Cerebro on a mixture of devices including
> XOs, x86 machines (Linux and Windows) and mobile phones. Cerebro  
> runs on
> each one of those independently (including OpenMoko Freerunner), but
> this testbed could be used as a "backbone" network for devices that
> would otherwise be out of range (such as a mobile phone on one side of
> campus and a PC on the other).
>
>
> Action items:
> 1) secure space (especially at Infinite Corridor) to house XOs.
> 2) setup and automate software updates over the network.
> 3) last but not least, get about 10-12 XOs from OLPC ;-)
>
> Comments/additions are most welcome!
>
> Pol
>
> -- 
> Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
> Graduate student
> Viral Communications
> MIT Media Lab
> Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
> http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/
>
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Ricardo Carrano
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In the spirit of escalating collaboration/communication use cases to
> more realistic scenarios, I 'd like to propose creating the following
> multihop network testbed.
>
> This testbed will involve about 70 nodes, but most are already deployed
> (about 50 nodes already exist at 1CC and 8 at the Media Lab). About
> 10-12 new XOs are necessary to form the multi-hop network:
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116432384591811010127.00044f046ce8f6f83aae3
>
> This testbed will be used to:
>
> 1) stress communication over the mesh network; this can be as large as a
> 10-hop network spanning from my apartment (Eastgate) to a friend's
> apartment in Ashdown.
>
> 2) Test collaboration using Cerebro on a mixture of devices including
> XOs, x86 machines (Linux and Windows) and mobile phones. Cerebro runs on
> each one of those independently (including OpenMoko Freerunner), but
> this testbed could be used as a "backbone" network for devices that
> would otherwise be out of range (such as a mobile phone on one side of
> campus and a PC on the other).
>
>
> Action items:
> 1) secure space (especially at Infinite Corridor) to house XOs.
> 2) setup and automate software updates over the network.
> 3) last but not least, get about 10-12 XOs from OLPC ;-)
>
> Comments/additions are most welcome!
>
> Pol
>
> --
> Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
> Graduate student
> Viral Communications
> MIT Media Lab
> Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
> http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/
>
> ___
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>

Pol,

This will be something quite useful. We really need to start setting
sparse clouds.
>From what we've experimented back in November, you will want to put
active antennas by the window. Unless you're trying to reach the
neighbor next door (which is still a valid setup).
In the streets around 1cc, particularly at the parking lot near the
MediaLab you can decode frames from XOs sitting at 1cc. But nothing
that will support any useful communication, I believe.

Cheers!
Ricardo
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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Aaron Kaplan

>
> This is mainly an outdoor test with indoor nodes ;-) The idea is be  
> as realistic as possible and try to replicate the actual village  
> environment, only in its worst possible form: Including the high  
> radio noise levels of MIT. We should not enforce connectivity by  
> means of external antennae, but rather experiment with the  
> reachability of the XO as it is, potentially by adding active  
> antennae in between.
>
> Having this testbed in place, we can try a mobility test also, eg.  
> having a mobile phone or an XO "walk" from end to end.
>

makes sense. But I would not be surprised if you need external  
antennas for good thruput. Keep us updated :)

Which reminds me! You do have a radome on the main building, right?  
Is there something with 5Ghz (radar) there?

a.

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Aaron Kaplan wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:31 PM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos wrote:
>
>> In the spirit of escalating collaboration/communication use cases to
>> more realistic scenarios, I 'd like to propose creating the following
>> multihop network testbed.
>>
>> This testbed will involve about 70 nodes, but most are already deployed
>> (about 50 nodes already exist at 1CC and 8 at the Media Lab). About
>> 10-12 new XOs are necessary to form the multi-hop network:
>>
>> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116432384591811010127.00044f046ce8f6f83aae3
>>  
>>
>>
>
> Hi Pol!
>
> outdoor or indoor?
>
> Might be a good outdoor test for XO durability :))
>
> You might need some external directional antennas since there is so 
> much 2.4GHz noise there.
>
>
> a.

This is mainly an outdoor test with indoor nodes ;-) The idea is be as 
realistic as possible and try to replicate the actual village 
environment, only in its worst possible form: Including the high radio 
noise levels of MIT. We should not enforce connectivity by means of 
external antennae, but rather experiment with the reachability of the XO 
as it is, potentially by adding active antennae in between.

Having this testbed in place, we can try a mobility test also, eg. 
having a mobile phone or an XO "walk" from end to end.

p.


-- 
Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Graduate student
Viral Communications
MIT Media Lab
Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/

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Re: New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Aaron Kaplan

On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:31 PM, Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos wrote:

> In the spirit of escalating collaboration/communication use cases to
> more realistic scenarios, I 'd like to propose creating the following
> multihop network testbed.
>
> This testbed will involve about 70 nodes, but most are already  
> deployed
> (about 50 nodes already exist at 1CC and 8 at the Media Lab). About
> 10-12 new XOs are necessary to form the multi-hop network:
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms? 
> hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116432384591811010127.00 
> 044f046ce8f6f83aae3
>

Hi Pol!

outdoor or indoor?

Might be a good outdoor test for XO durability :))

You might need some external directional antennas since there is so  
much 2.4GHz noise there.


a.
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New, more realistic multi-hop network testbed

2008-06-06 Thread Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
In the spirit of escalating collaboration/communication use cases to 
more realistic scenarios, I 'd like to propose creating the following 
multihop network testbed.

This testbed will involve about 70 nodes, but most are already deployed 
(about 50 nodes already exist at 1CC and 8 at the Media Lab). About 
10-12 new XOs are necessary to form the multi-hop network:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116432384591811010127.00044f046ce8f6f83aae3

This testbed will be used to:

1) stress communication over the mesh network; this can be as large as a 
10-hop network spanning from my apartment (Eastgate) to a friend's 
apartment in Ashdown.

2) Test collaboration using Cerebro on a mixture of devices including 
XOs, x86 machines (Linux and Windows) and mobile phones. Cerebro runs on 
each one of those independently (including OpenMoko Freerunner), but 
this testbed could be used as a "backbone" network for devices that 
would otherwise be out of range (such as a mobile phone on one side of 
campus and a PC on the other).


Action items:
1) secure space (especially at Infinite Corridor) to house XOs.
2) setup and automate software updates over the network.
3) last but not least, get about 10-12 XOs from OLPC ;-)

Comments/additions are most welcome!

Pol

-- 
Polychronis Ypodimatopoulos
Graduate student
Viral Communications
MIT Media Lab
Tel: +1 (617) 459-6058
http://www.mit.edu/~ypod/

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