Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Bussoletti, John E wrote: Examination of the output of xdpyinfo in the SGI machines shows that the SGI X drivers support Pseudocolor visuals at both 8 bit planes and 12 bit planes. Similar output under Linux shows support for Pseudocolor Visuals at only 8 bit planes. These applications were built to take advantage of the 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visual under the SGI X drivers. Is there any support for 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visuals within at least one video card and the XFree86 drivers? Will there be support for such features in the future? If so, is there an anticipated release date? What features of Pseudocolor are you using ? Are you using plane masks or dynamic color changes ? 12bit PseudoColor naturally fits onto 36bit DirectColor visuals, something that PC graphics hardware doesn't have. Exceed will either give you StaticColor, or have a slow down whenever you switch colormaps. With backing store (something XFree86 doesn't do well at the moment) this wont be a big hit on a current machine but it does require a cludge, which upsets the sensibilities of some of our developers. If you actually need PseudoColor (not just StaticColor) I think you would be better rewriting the app to take account of the feature-set of the available hardware, than to get the X server to emulate the features you are using in software, which is what Exceed will be doing. (The absence of PseudoColor on DirectColor is partly that the RandR (Rotate and Resize) extension was going to allow all visual combinations on screen at once, emulating some in software and even switching hardware mode on the fly when a different visual became dominant. The departure of Keith Packard stopped that, so you might be better looking at Xorg/OpenDesktop.org.) I don't think anyone has asked for 12bit before. We do have 10bit support in the glint driver, but that is the width of the DAC, not the length of the palette. The Matrox Parhelia also has 10bit dacs; I don't know whether they have a closed driver that does what you need. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Cambridge, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Bussoletti, John E wrote: At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. Most PC graphics hardware does not support overlays and therefore doesn't really support simultaneous PseudoColor and TrueColor visuals. Some PC hardware can, for instance, some Matrox cards and some NVIDIA Quadro cards and some others. You'll need to research that pretty carefully because while some hardware may support it, the drivers may not. Hummingbird does PseudoColor emulation in software, probably by rendering PseudoColor windows offscreen and then translating into TrueColor windows during PseudoColor window updates and palette changes. XFree86 doesn't support this because nobody has cared enough about it to write support for it. I don't expect that to change. Examination of the output of xdpyinfo in the SGI machines shows that the SGI X drivers support Pseudocolor visuals at both 8 bit planes and 12 bit planes. Similar output under Linux shows support for Pseudocolor Visuals at only 8 bit planes. These applications were built to take advantage of the 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visual under the SGI X drivers. No PC hardware supports palettes with more than 2^8 entries. A 2^12 entry palette could be implemented only by emultation (rendering offscreen and then translating to TrueColor windows). To allow use of these graphics applications within a Linux environment, we're contemplating a port of the applications to Directcolor Visuals. But prior to initiating such an activity, I've been asked to ask whether new developments or releases of the XFree86 X drivers might be in the pipeline for future release that might offer a wider variety of Pseudocolor Visuals. Hence this note. Porting to depth 24 DirectColor will increase the number of cards that your application will run on. Most XFree86 drivers support simultaneous depth 24 DirectColor and TrueColor visuals, although there will be color flashing when changing window focus because PC hardware only supports a single hardware palette. But if your application requires 12 bit plane palettes, I don't see how depth 24 (8 plane palettes) will help your situation. Is there any support for 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visuals within at least one video card and the XFree86 drivers? Will there be support for such features in the future? If so, is there an anticipated release date? No PC hardware supports 12 bit plane PseudoColor. No drivers emulate this in software. I know of no plans to implement this and expect adding such a feature to be unlikely. My recommendation is that you get away from PseudoColor entirely. Most people stuck in your position have legacy apps for which they do not have source code and have no choice. I recommend doing everything in TrueColor, and depending on the application, you might want to consider using OpenGL. This problem will likely get worse for you in the future. Some hardware support 8 bit PseudoColor overlays now but I expect this to go the way of the dodo. My impression is that a future Microsoft operating system will not support 8 bit PseudoColor modes nor will it support overlays so eventually these will disappear from the hardware, leaving emulation as the only solution. Mark ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Mark Vojkovich wrote: ...Some hardware support 8 bit PseudoColor overlays now but I expect this to go the way of the dodo. My impression is that a future Microsoft operating system will not support 8 bit PseudoColor modes nor will it support overlays so eventually these will disappear from the hardware, leaving emulation as the only solution. Exactly correct. Windows XP still includes support for 8-bit pseudo-color, if you know how to hack the registry, but it is not exposed in the UI, and their documentation implies that it is not supported. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Title: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86? At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. Examination of the output of xdpyinfo in the SGI machines shows that the SGI X drivers support Pseudocolor visuals at both 8 bit planes and 12 bit planes. Similar output under Linux shows support for Pseudocolor Visuals at only 8 bit planes. These applications were built to take advantage of the 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visual under the SGI X drivers. To allow use of these graphics applications within a Linux environment, we're contemplating a port of the applications to Directcolor Visuals. But prior to initiating such an activity, I've been asked to ask whether new developments or releases of the XFree86 X drivers might be in the pipeline for future release that might offer a wider variety of Pseudocolor Visuals. Hence this note. Is there any support for 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visuals within at least one video card and the XFree86 drivers? Will there be support for such features in the future? If so, is there an anticipated release date? Thank you. John Bussoletti John Bussoletti Enabling Technology and Research Boeing Commercial Airplane Group Email: john.e.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (425) 234-1278
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Title: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86? Bussoletti, John E wrote: At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. Examination of the output of xdpyinfo in the SGI machines shows that the SGI X drivers support Pseudocolor visuals at both 8 bit planes and 12 bit planes. Similar output under Linux shows support for Pseudocolor Visuals at only 8 bit planes. These applications were built to take advantage of the 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visual under the SGI X drivers. To allow use of these graphics applications within a Linux environment, we're contemplating a port of the applications to Directcolor Visuals. But prior to initiating such an activity, I've been asked to ask whether new developments or releases of the XFree86 X drivers might be in the pipeline for future release that might offer a wider variety of Pseudocolor Visuals. Hence this note. Is there any support for 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visuals within at least one video card and the XFree86 drivers? Will there be support for such features in the future? If so, is there an anticipated release date? The problem is not XFree86, the problem is technology. I'm not aware of ANY commodity graphics chips that support a 12-bit palettized video display mode. That's mostly because Windows doesn't handle it, and if Windows doesn't handle it, there is no business case for developing it in hardware. Assuming there was such a chip, there are no architectural barriers to supporting it in XFree86.. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc.
RE: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Title: Message Tim, Thanks for the info, but I'm left a bit puzzled. Under Windows with the ExCeed 3D X windows server, using the same hardware that we've got under Linux, we're at least able to use the Windows screen to display the 12 bit Pseudocolor Visual screen correctly. WIth Linux and the XFree86 drivers, we can only do so using an 8 bit plane Pseudocolor visual which results in mis-mapped colors when the color scale is exceeded. So ExCeed 3D must be doing something that the XFree86 drivers don't do. Do you have any idea what it might be? One possiblility is to pursue a contract with Hummingbird... John Bussoletti -Original Message-From: Tim Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:24 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?Bussoletti, John E wrote: At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. Examination of the output of xdpyinfo in the SGI machines shows that the SGI X drivers support Pseudocolor visuals at both 8 bit planes and 12 bit planes. Similar output under Linux shows support for Pseudocolor Visuals at only 8 bit planes. These applications were built to take advantage of the 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visual under the SGI X drivers. To allow use of these graphics applications within a Linux environment, we're contemplating a port of the applications to Directcolor Visuals. But prior to initiating such an activity, I've been asked to ask whether new developments or releases of the XFree86 X drivers might be in the pipeline for future release that might offer a wider variety of Pseudocolor Visuals. Hence this note. Is there any support for 12 bit plane Pseudocolor Visuals within at least one video card and the XFree86 drivers? Will there be support for such features in the future? If so, is there an anticipated release date?The problem is not XFree86, the problem is technology. I'm not aware of ANY commodity graphics chips that support a 12-bit palettized video display mode. That's mostly because Windows doesn't handle it, and if Windows doesn't handle it, there is no business case for developing it in hardware.Assuming there was such a chip, there are no architectural barriers to supporting it in XFree86..-- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc.
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Bussoletti, John E wrote: At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. The X terminology is a little different than most people expect, so I want to ask for some clarification. By SGI hardware acting as server do you mean the application is running on the SGI and displaying on the Linux system, or the application is running on the Linux system and displaying on the SGI? In X terminology, the server (i.e., X-server) is where ever the stuff is being displayed. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:24:12 -0800 Tim Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: The problem is not XFree86, the problem is technology. I'm not aware of ANY commodity graphics chips that support a 12-bit palettized video display mode. That's mostly because Windows doesn't handle it, and if Windows doesn't handle it, there is no business case for developing it in hardware. Assuming there was such a chip, there are no architectural barriers to supporting it in XFree86.. absolutely - but there is NO issue with this being able to be solved in SOFTWARE! :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 裸好多 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本) ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Ian Romanick wrote: Tim Roberts wrote: The problem is not XFree86, the problem is technology. I'm not aware of ANY commodity graphics chips that support a 12-bit palettized video display mode. That's mostly because Windows doesn't handle it, and if Windows doesn't handle it, there is no business case for developing it in hardware. Assuming there was such a chip, there are no architectural barriers to supporting it in XFree86.. The fact that ExCeed 3D (which runs under Windows) can support it leads me to believe that hardware support has little to do with it. Remember that you can have a pseudocolor visual on a display that is physically truecolor. It just means that the X-server has to remap everything. I suspect the real reason is that nobody has ever wanted this support bad enough to write a patch. :) Solaris/Xsun and the X11R6.8.0 tree both have Pseudocolor emulation modes (Xsun actually supports emulated StaticGray/Grayscale/StaticColor/etc., too) ... Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) [EMAIL PROTECTED] \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, CJAVASunUnix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
RE: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86?
Ian, What I mean is the application is running on the SGI platform and displaying on a screen across the network. Running on identical hardware, under Window/ExCeed's X server, the application works correctly. Running under Linux/XFree86 X server, it only displays at 8 bit planes and when the color map overflows, the display is not colored correctly. So somehow Windows/ExCeed seems to be doing a bit more in emulating capabilities that aren't being provided by the Xfree 86 driver. John Bussoletti -Original Message- From: Ian Romanick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Wollen, Douglas B; Jorstad, Ralph G Subject: Re: Added Pseudocolor Visuals for XFree86? Bussoletti, John E wrote: At Boeing we have a number of graphics applications that have been developed in-house, originally for various SGI platforms. These applications are used for engineering visualization They work well on the native hardware and even display well across the network using third party applications under Windows like Hummingbird's ExCeed 3D. However, under Linux, the fail to work properly, either natively or via remote display with the original SGI hardware acting as server, due to omissions in the available Pseudocolor Visuals. The X terminology is a little different than most people expect, so I want to ask for some clarification. By SGI hardware acting as server do you mean the application is running on the SGI and displaying on the Linux system, or the application is running on the Linux system and displaying on the SGI? In X terminology, the server (i.e., X-server) is where ever the stuff is being displayed. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
