Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
In a message dated 3/16/05 8:29:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Final note: All this means today's American college and high school graduate had best get off their lazy butts and realize what the REAL competition is going to do to their job situation. -- I don't know. I spent three years on all kinds of projects that were to prepare students, they sort of got defunded. The children don't create the curriculum or create the ideational scaffolding toward curriculum. They are the ones who grew up in the culture of media. Seems to me that the reality is that so many people are looking at reality shows and entertainment that academics have gone away. Nationally we seem to be making fun of anything intellectual, challenging or of science. Sputnik got a rise out of congress years ago. maybe the Singapore triumph in technology will open the eyes of the sleeping. You don't get to Mars by reading a book. Thinking is an evolved practice. Maybe we have some other kind of divide that is anti-intellectual. Bonnie Bracey bbracey at aol.com ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
I'm kind of new to this network. Not that this matters. I'm with you John until you said lazy high school students. Can we really say that their being lazy is the problem? In some communities I know that there are a lack of available role models and inspiration. Teacher can't do it all. I can guarantee you that the people in these areas that you are using as examples, did not get motivated without some focused guidance. I agree with what you said about the opportunities for less expensive training on the net. I does though, take some doing to get people who are focused on survival in the streets to understand the exponential possibilities of information intelligence. When it comes to the digital divide, we need to focus on the source. I also like what Andy said about different solutions for different situations. For instance, in the American inner, cell phones and other type of digital toys are fairly ineffective in reaching the youth populations and making sure that once they are trained that the jobs are there for them. Many of the high school students are not lazy, many are just misguided. Unfortunately, the violence and gun play in cities such as Philadelphia makes it difficult to reach the very people who need a bridge through the Digital Divide. They are the stigmatized form both directions because they are being caught in the cross hairs. It's very sad that unfortunately this is the problem is alive and kicking right here the most digitally progressive county. What do you think about that? Like or not. Sandra - Original Message - From: John Hibbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Digital Divide Network discussiongroup [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd) At 4:27 AM + 3/12/05, Cindy Lemcke-Hoong wrote: One reason is, as a labourer, you don't need to know too much reading. Just pure muscle. And miserable lives. I saw that in China, Singapore (that was in the 80s, where foreign workers from Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia lived in deplorable conditions as compared to the local. The Malaysian faired better since their home is only a hop away ...), now in Malaysia ... While we frequently talk about greater access to education and training as a result of the Net and cheaper access to it -- all of which is true -- we really don't concentrate very hard on the talking more about promoting *work* opportunities as a result of the new connectivity. I don't know why this is because the examples are many that this kind of thing is well underway; (India's India's call centers -- coupled to the complaint by wealthy nation employees that their job was outsourced). (What is one man's poison is another man's potion.) It is not a terribly long step to believe that relatively simple typing skills by Bengali's can lead to data processing jobs from Boston -- along the lines of what the Irish have done for New England insurance companies for two or three decades. Outsourcing has just begun. In full bloom, 30, 40, 50 years from now, it will mean tele-commuting -- probably from telecenters with all the latest and greatest equipment, with the labor force coming from that same pool that Cindy came from...except what will count most is brain power, not muscle power. Final note: All this means today's American college and high school graduate had best get off their lazy butts and realize what the REAL competition is going to do to their job situation. -- John W. Hibbs http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
RE: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
This thread caused me to remember: The word educate comes from latin root words which together mean 'to draw out from within.' I always liked that because it spoke to me of the value of understanding. Wanda Jean ThreeHoops.com Visibility Resources for Tribal Nations, NA Businesses and Nonprofits 2011 Fall Hill Avenue - Fredericksburg VA 22041 - Tel: 540 371 4199 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd) --Dear Bonnie and Others: As an educator and student, I agree that we certainly are experiencing a backlash to anything intellectual that requires critical thinking skills. As a matter of fact, in most workplaces independent thinking is downright discouraged, leaving those who still possess a flare for it feeling alienated and ostracized. We have acquired a persistent tendency to believe that if results cannot be produced quickly and failure might be an issue, they are not worth the bother. This may be true in certain areas, but when it comes to developing critical thinking skills and acquiring a solid educational foundation, this is certainly not the case. Students in underserved public education situations are no longer allowed the intellectual courtesy of why they should be interested in studying certain concepts and until we approach this problem and link concepts so that relevance can be understood and used to correlate ideas they will not feel the fire of true learning and where it can take them. Teaching to the test certainly doesn't cut it. Try as we might, we cannot quantify everything with our current mathematical capabilities. In any given class you can see those who have been given this gift, who understand why they are there. They stand out; the student who had that one educator who linked ideas together to motivate them and how they use it like rocket fuel to propel them along a path, eating up knowledge because it has become self-relevant. When we give learners a place a sense of belonging and a sense of why learning is important to THEM that is when educators do justice to their profession. Maybe then intellectualism might stand a fighting chance once more. So John, I don't think that they are really lazy, I just think that most of them are directionless- take the leash! Excuse the rant, I wish I could sound more like Mad Dog - he certainly burns rocket fuel! Regards, Susan Susan Crane-Sundell [EMAIL PROTECTED] SUCB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/16/05 8:29:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Final note: All this means today's American college and high school graduate had best get off their lazy butts and realize what the REAL competition is going to do to their job situation. -- I don't know. I spent three years on all kinds of projects that were to prepare students, they sort of got defunded. The children don't create the curriculum or create the ideational scaffolding toward curriculum. They are the ones who grew up in the culture of media. Seems to me that the reality is that so many people are looking at reality shows and entertainment that academics have gone away. Nationally we seem to be making fun of anything intellectual, challenging or of science. Sputnik got a rise out of congress years ago. maybe the Singapore triumph in technology will open the eyes of the sleeping. You don't get to Mars by reading a book. Thinking is an evolved practice. Maybe we have some other kind of divide that is anti-intellectual. Bonnie Bracey bbracey at aol.com ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
At 4:27 AM + 3/12/05, Cindy Lemcke-Hoong wrote: One reason is, as a labourer, you don't need to know too much reading. Just pure muscle. And miserable lives. I saw that in China, Singapore (that was in the 80s, where foreign workers from Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia lived in deplorable conditions as compared to the local. The Malaysian faired better since their home is only a hop away ...), now in Malaysia ... While we frequently talk about greater access to education and training as a result of the Net and cheaper access to it -- all of which is true -- we really don't concentrate very hard on the talking more about promoting *work* opportunities as a result of the new connectivity. I don't know why this is because the examples are many that this kind of thing is well underway; (India's India's call centers -- coupled to the complaint by wealthy nation employees that their job was outsourced). (What is one man's poison is another man's potion.) It is not a terribly long step to believe that relatively simple typing skills by Bengali's can lead to data processing jobs from Boston -- along the lines of what the Irish have done for New England insurance companies for two or three decades. Outsourcing has just begun. In full bloom, 30, 40, 50 years from now, it will mean tele-commuting -- probably from telecenters with all the latest and greatest equipment, with the labor force coming from that same pool that Cindy came from...except what will count most is brain power, not muscle power. Final note: All this means today's American college and high school graduate had best get off their lazy butts and realize what the REAL competition is going to do to their job situation. -- John W. Hibbs http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
RE: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
One of the best books I have found on the subject of technology and American Indians is Jerry Mander's In the Absence of the Sacred: The failure of technology and the survival of the Indian nations. It was published by Sierra Books, San Francisco in 1991. Mander's book leans to the left at times, but it is well written with some very thought provoking ideas. Mander, J. (1991) In the Absence of the Sacred. At Amazon.com. http://tinyurl.com/57kz9 The Western ethnocentric bias in software development is an obvious place to look for evidence of assimilation of languages and cultures. One indicator of the homogenization of humanity is the loss of linguistic diversity as documented by many sources including the UN. The link below leads to a horribly written, rambling press release on the subject (some interesting snippets though). The report itself is huge (25MB - 750 pages) but there is lots of good stuff in there. There are a number of people in the States working on the linguistic preservation issue including the folks at Red Pony. You may want to contact them. UNEP Press Release: Globalization Threat to World's Cultural, Linguistic and Biological Diversity http://tinyurl.com/6xyaa Cultural and Spiritual Values of Biodiversity - Edited by Darrell Addison Posey http://www.unep.org/Biodiversity/ Red Pony http://www.redpony.us/ Kelvin Wong Department of Computer Science University of Victoria My Blog on Aboriginal People and Technology http://nativetech.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Jean Lord Sent: March 12, 2005 12:56 PM To: 'The Digital Divide Network discussion group' Subject: RE: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd) As we focus on bridging the DD - it appears that there are cultural exchanges that are inherent in this work, with impacts. Are there models of completed DD projects that work specifically with the markers of retaining and/or strengthening the intact cultures to which the technology is introduced while bringing economic benefits to those communities? I wonder at the impacts technology can have that either purposefully, or without intent, act as a 'great assimilator.' Can anyone recommend readings/research on this topic? ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
Hello Tom, You said : Why in a remote village in Bangladesh when the urban poor in the streets of Dhaka mean you could begin right after landing. One reason I could think of is to stop migration. Young people from villages tend to move to big cities to find a 'better living', or being attracted by the choices. I came from a small village. After high school I left and went to the capital and eventually went abroad 35 years ago. I am one of the lucky ones because I am now in the same crowd as all of you, sitting infront of a PC and tell the world the plight of the poor and less fortunate. Most time I just feel down-right guilty. Countries such as China ... constructions in cities attracted villagers. One reason is, as a labourer, you don't need to know too much reading. Just pure muscle. And miserable lives. I saw that in China, Singapore (that was in the 80s, where foreign workers from Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia lived in deplorable conditions as compared to the local. The Malaysian faired better since their home is only a hop away ...), now in Malaysia ... Digital Divide, migrations, refugees, education, corruptions, tyrants etc. etc. etc. ... go hand-in-hand. Taking care of one without managing the others is not going to work. If we look at all the ills created by migrations at this present moment in Europe, or any where eles in this world, then I am asking is DDN looking at the right directions? Is DDN working with the right stakeholders and partners? It has to be cohesive 'managing' and not with a one track mind of solving just DD ... we have to solve the fundamental problems, help them to build a solid foundations ... These are all the work of policy-makers. But what do one see with policy makers? POWER hunger. POWER mongel. GREED, DOMINATION .. Starting from the most powerful nation on earth. IF the US would spend less time fighiting with UN and EU, and give more constructive support, would it not be a better use of time and resources? But what do we see just from one simple example ... the Tsunami and earth-quake disaster in Asia ??? Or Darfur ??? Or the removal of the UN Refugee commissioner ... why? Digital divide is at the bottom of the list. Don't just give them fish. And sometime I think we do more harm than good. Cindy Tom Abeles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Andy The mobile phone and radio, as others, here, have suggested seems to have been spot on. What we must also realize is that the many emerging features of the mobile phone, including txt msgs, gps and even pda capabilities are being actively deployed in the developed world for a number of commercial uses that, in the past, would have required a pc. Some applications, of course, require reading skills. But for many it is not needed. A colleague has been in a car where four different occupants were on cells in four different languages. The claim that phone access is not available in some remote locations is less of a problem than the regulatory issues within a country As I have said elsewhere, the issues are at the institutional levels more than in the technology arena. It seems that eager hands/minds in the NGO and foundation community find it easier to embrace a village project and rationalize it when a combined macro effort, with the stroke of a pen could release more opportunity and allow those who want to work in the field to be much more effective. The other issue in the DD which relates to this is where exactly to attack the problem. For example, working in a remote village is interesting: but when compared to the number of disenfranchised who are living on the streets of major urban areas driven out of the economc dearth of the remote villages to the city, then bringing the digital world to the urban poor seems to have leverage. Why in a remote village in Bangladesh when the urban poor in the streets of Dhaka mean you could begin right after landing. thoughts? tom abeles Andy Carvin wrote: From the latest issue of The Economist -ac The real digital divide IT WAS an idea born in those far-off days of the internet bubble: the worry that as people in the rich world embraced new computing and communications technologies, people in the poor world would be left stranded on the wrong side of a digital divide. Five years after the technology bubble burst, many ideas from the timethat eyeballs matter more than profits or that internet traffic was doubling every 100 dayshave been sensibly shelved. But the idea of the digital divide persists. On March 14th, after years of debate, the United Nations will launch a Digital Solidarity Fund to finance projects that address the uneven distribution and use of new information and communication technologies and enable excluded people and countries to enter the new era of the information society. Yet the debate over the digital divide is founded on a myththat plugging poor
RE: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
No good deed goes unpunished or Do good anyways and Bloom where you're planted - so people have told me in the past...when faced with the natural tendency of people to examine or criticize good work from a variety of important and legitimate perspectives. I remember once learning about how the federal budget process worked and the sharer of information said a very wise thing. He said Of course, it is obvious, that very intelligent people can legitimately disagree about priorities. I struggle with where the balance is too - is the most effective action policy and legislation based (to achieve a long term goal or open a market)? Is it the 'on the ground' one on one work in communities who may not ever directly benefit from changed legislation and market opportunities due to a variety of factors? Is it in the profit sector? Is it via faith based or NGO or nonprofit efforts? Is it with an individual (teach them to fish or in this case give them fishing poles)? An organization that's community based (teach them to fish together)? An institution that has far reach and the fiscal wherewithal to sustain effort (research best fishing practices, create models and provide resources to increase the catch for all fishermen - regardless of a lack of existing fishing poles and the money to buy them or put them to the best use of some fishermen)? Is sustained effort the measure of success? Are open markets the measure of success? Are increased communications/technology abilities the measure? Or is the actual increased economic condition of people living in poverty the marker(individually increased cash flow, and/or increased short long term assets made possible via technology that would not otherwise exist)? And then with all these questions - there has come a new thought to my mind of late as I have observed the interaction of IT projects within more culturally traditional and more assimilated communities. In forensic science there is a concept that when a person goes to a place they leave an impact on the place - a speck of dust, a hair, something...and the place also leaves an impact on the person - reciprocally giving to them - a speck of dust, a hair, something...in some interactions the reciprocity is balanced, in others it is highly imbalanced and produces more of an impact on one or the other. As we focus on bridging the DD - it appears that there are cultural exchanges that are inherent in this work, with impacts. Are there models of completed DD projects that work specifically with the markers of retaining and/or strengthening the intact cultures to which the technology is introduced while bringing economic benefits to those communities? I wonder at the impacts technology can have that either purposefully, or without intent, act as a 'great assimilator.' Can anyone recommend readings/research on this topic? I am very interested in any thoughts any of you have on this topic and appreciate them in advance. Thank you, Wanda ThreeHoops.com Visibility Resources for Tribal Nations, NA Businesses and Nonprofits 2011 Fall Hill Avenue - Fredericksburg VA 22041 - Tel: 540 371 4199 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Abeles Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:39 PM To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group Subject: Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd) Hi Andy The mobile phone and radio, as others, here, have suggested seems to have been spot on. What we must also realize is that the many emerging features of the mobile phone, including txt msgs, gps and even pda capabilities are being actively deployed in the developed world for a number of commercial uses that, in the past, would have required a pc. Some applications, of course, require reading skills. But for many it is not needed. A colleague has been in a car where four different occupants were on cells in four different languages. The claim that phone access is not available in some remote locations is less of a problem than the regulatory issues within a country As I have said elsewhere, the issues are at the institutional levels more than in the technology arena. It seems that eager hands/minds in the NGO and foundation community find it easier to embrace a village project and rationalize it when a combined macro effort, with the stroke of a pen could release more opportunity and allow those who want to work in the field to be much more effective. The other issue in the DD which relates to this is where exactly to attack the problem. For example, working in a remote village is interesting: but when compared to the number of disenfranchised who are living on the streets of major urban areas driven out of the economc dearth of the remote villages to the city, then bringing the digital world to the urban poor seems to have leverage. Why in a remote village in Bangladesh when the urban poor in the streets of Dhaka mean you could begin right after landing
Re: [DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
Hi Andy The mobile phone and radio, as others, here, have suggested seems to have been spot on. What we must also realize is that the many emerging features of the mobile phone, including txt msgs, gps and even pda capabilities are being actively deployed in the developed world for a number of commercial uses that, in the past, would have required a pc. Some applications, of course, require reading skills. But for many it is not needed. A colleague has been in a car where four different occupants were on cells in four different languages. The claim that phone access is not available in some remote locations is less of a problem than the regulatory issues within a country As I have said elsewhere, the issues are at the institutional levels more than in the technology arena. It seems that eager hands/minds in the NGO and foundation community find it easier to embrace a village project and rationalize it when a combined macro effort, with the stroke of a pen could release more opportunity and allow those who want to work in the field to be much more effective. The other issue in the DD which relates to this is where exactly to attack the problem. For example, working in a remote village is interesting: but when compared to the number of disenfranchised who are living on the streets of major urban areas driven out of the economc dearth of the remote villages to the city, then bringing the digital world to the urban poor seems to have leverage. Why in a remote village in Bangladesh when the urban poor in the streets of Dhaka mean you could begin right after landing. thoughts? tom abeles Andy Carvin wrote: From the latest issue of The Economist -ac The real digital divide IT WAS an idea born in those far-off days of the internet bubble: the worry that as people in the rich world embraced new computing and communications technologies, people in the poor world would be left stranded on the wrong side of a digital divide. Five years after the technology bubble burst, many ideas from the timethat eyeballs matter more than profits or that internet traffic was doubling every 100 dayshave been sensibly shelved. But the idea of the digital divide persists. On March 14th, after years of debate, the United Nations will launch a Digital Solidarity Fund to finance projects that address the uneven distribution and use of new information and communication technologies and enable excluded people and countries to enter the new era of the information society. Yet the debate over the digital divide is founded on a myththat plugging poor countries into the internet will help them to become rich rapidly. snip Plenty of evidence suggests that the mobile phone is the technology with the greatest impact on development. A new paper finds that mobile phones raise long-term growth rates, that their impact is twice as big in developing nations as in developed ones, and that an extra ten phones per 100 people in a typical developing country increases GDP growth by 0.6 percentage points. And when it comes to mobile phones, there is no need for intervention or funding from the UN: even the world's poorest people are already rushing to embrace mobile phones, because their economic benefits are so apparent. Mobile phones do not rely on a permanent electricity supply and can be used by people who cannot read or write. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
[DDN] The real digital divide (fwd)
From the latest issue of The Economist -ac The real digital divide IT WAS an idea born in those far-off days of the internet bubble: the worry that as people in the rich world embraced new computing and communications technologies, people in the poor world would be left stranded on the wrong side of a digital divide. Five years after the technology bubble burst, many ideas from the timethat eyeballs matter more than profits or that internet traffic was doubling every 100 dayshave been sensibly shelved. But the idea of the digital divide persists. On March 14th, after years of debate, the United Nations will launch a Digital Solidarity Fund to finance projects that address the uneven distribution and use of new information and communication technologies and enable excluded people and countries to enter the new era of the information society. Yet the debate over the digital divide is founded on a myththat plugging poor countries into the internet will help them to become rich rapidly. snip Plenty of evidence suggests that the mobile phone is the technology with the greatest impact on development. A new paper finds that mobile phones raise long-term growth rates, that their impact is twice as big in developing nations as in developed ones, and that an extra ten phones per 100 people in a typical developing country increases GDP growth by 0.6 percentage points. And when it comes to mobile phones, there is no need for intervention or funding from the UN: even the world's poorest people are already rushing to embrace mobile phones, because their economic benefits are so apparent. Mobile phones do not rely on a permanent electricity supply and can be used by people who cannot read or write. -- http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3742817 --- Andy Carvin Program Director EDC Center for Media Community acarvin @ edc . org http://www.digitaldivide.net http://www.tsunami-info.org Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com --- ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
