Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Are you going to remove the D1 compiler parts of code in the D2 compiler source code? A leaner source base will help. Also this transitional moment seems a good moment to rename the .c suffix of the frontend+backend C++ files to .cpp or something like that. I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from 2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their code will break, and they will have to work to fix it. Bye, bearophile
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote: I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from 2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their code will break, and they will have to work to fix it. Why? - Jonathan M davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Jonathan M Davis: Why? Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions), so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061. Bye, bearophile
Re: Awesomium D wrappers/bindings
Am 02.01.2013 08:48, schrieb evilrat:
arrays initialized with nulls right? anyway just setting only first
symbol in text field(it's wchar[4]) is enough.
Not wchar arrays:
import std.stdio;
void main() {
writefln(0x%x, wchar.init);
}
this prints: 0x
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19:54 bearophile wrote: Jonathan M Davis: Why? Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions), so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061. And how is that any different from any other release? - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Jonathan M Davis: And how is that any different from any other release? How much time used to pass between two adjacent releases, in past? Bye, bearophile
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 12:55, bearophile wrote: Jonathan M Davis: And how is that any different from any other release? How much time used to pass between two adjacent releases, in past? Bye, bearophile Around a month, perhaps. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). I think this will fix the problem: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/installer/pull/9 I don't know if this is the problem you encountered but: PackageMaker is apparently not included with Xcode anymore. It's not included in the auxiliary package which can be downloaded here: https://developer.apple.com/downloads/index.action The script now assumes PackageMaker is installed either in /Applications/PackageMaker.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageMaker or, as before, /Developer/usr/bin/packagemaker. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 08:20:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote: I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from 2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their code will break, and they will have to work to fix it. Why? - Jonathan M davis I have noticed my project doesn't compile with 2.061 when it did with 2.060. I am using a few different static libraries, one of them is thrift. I had to recompile the libraries I use with 2.061 which meant I had to rebuild thrift and the thrift generated libraries. Once I did that I could compile just fine. But before that I got the errors below. I am on 64-bit Ubuntu (AMD64). /persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(base_1_403.o): In function `_D6thrift4base10TException6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC6thrift4base10TException': src/thrift/base.d:(.text._D6thrift4base10TException6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC6thrift4base10TException+0x31): undefined reference to `_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception' /persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_19a_f6c.o): In function `_D3std6format62__T11formatRangeTS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderTAyaTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderKAyaKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv': /persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format62__T11formatRangeTS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderTAyaTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderKAyaKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x519): undefined reference to `_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception' /persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_518_1094.o): In function `_D3std6format81__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC3std6socket7AddressTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC3std6socket7AddressKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv': /persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format81__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC3std6socket7AddressTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC3std6socket7AddressKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x370): undefined reference to `_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception' /persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_528_117d.o): In function `_D3std6format72__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC9ExceptionTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC9ExceptionKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv': /persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format72__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC9ExceptionTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC9ExceptionKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x370): undefined reference to `_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception' /persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_555_f95.o): In function `_D3std6format327__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joiner6ResultTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joinerFS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultAyaZS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465! 787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joiner6Result6ResultKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv':
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Am Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:14:53 +0100 schrieb David Eagen davidea...@mailinator.com: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 08:20:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote: I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from 2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their code will break, and they will have to work to fix it. Why? - Jonathan M davis I have noticed my project doesn't compile with 2.061 when it did with 2.060. I am using a few different static libraries, one of them is thrift. I had to recompile the libraries I use with 2.061 which meant I had to rebuild thrift and the thrift generated libraries. Once I did that I could compile just fine. But before that I got the errors below. I am on 64-bit Ubuntu (AMD64). That's unfortunately normal for every dmd release. We try to stay API compatible, but ABI usually breaks with every compiler/druntime/phobos update. This means you can't mix object/library files compiled with different compiler versions. (An example of a ABI breaking change is everything which changes the mangled name: adding the safe/trusted attribute, pure, nothrow, property)
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Also, what's the dependency on ruby for?
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 7:27 AM, Johannes Pfau wrote: That's unfortunately normal for every dmd release. We try to stay API compatible, but ABI usually breaks with every compiler/druntime/phobos update. This means you can't mix object/library files compiled with different compiler versions. I go to some effort to avoid binary breakage with D1, but there's too much changing to make this work with D2 yet, so I settle for trying to not break source compatibility.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 9:59 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Also, what's the dependency on ruby for? The OS X install package builder is written in ruby.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 09:53 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). There has been a Ruby package on Ubuntu from the beginning, because Debian has had a Ruby package from the beginning. I'm afraid if your Ubuntu doesn't have ruby then the system administrator simply needs to install it. As evidence for much of the claim made above I present http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=rubysearchon=namessuite=allsection=all Evidence is only partial as only information about maintained versions is present. Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X. I think this is true as well ;-) -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of Ubuntu, it is no longer supported. Definitely need to stick with LTS version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now. Also need to consider formally supporting Mint now that Ubuntu is no longer the Linux distribution of choice in the Debian-based camp. Also, what's the dependency on ruby for? The OS X install package builder is written in ruby. Ruby, Perl and Python should all be considered as required infrastructure in this day and age. It should Just Work™. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
XING Gruppe D Programming Language - XING group D Programming Language
Hallo *. Ich habe auf XING die D Programmiersprache Gruppe einrichten lassen. Wer Interesse hat sich hier auszutauschen, Gleichgesinnte zu finden und/oder Kontakte zu pflegen, ist herzlichst eingeladen. Hier der Link: http://www.xing.com/net/dlang Frohes neues Jahr an alle D'ler Hi all. I've asked the XING team to create a D Programming Language group. If you are interested in finding D interested people and/or concacts, your are very welcome to join this group. Here is the link to the XING group: http://www.xing.com/net/dlang Happy Doding in the new year (Doding, the evaluation of coding ;) )
Re: XING Gruppe D Programming Language - XING group D Programming Language
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 18:19:01 UTC, notna wrote: Hallo *. Ich habe auf XING die D Programmiersprache Gruppe einrichten lassen. Wer Interesse hat sich hier auszutauschen, Gleichgesinnte zu finden und/oder Kontakte zu pflegen, ist herzlichst eingeladen. Hier der Link: http://www.xing.com/net/dlang Frohes neues Jahr an alle D'ler Hi all. I've asked the XING team to create a D Programming Language group. If you are interested in finding D interested people and/or concacts, your are very welcome to join this group. Here is the link to the XING group: http://www.xing.com/net/dlang Happy Doding in the new year (Doding, the evaluation of coding ;) ) A D-ating site? :-)
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. $ sudo apt-get install ruby -- Jordi Sayol
Re: XING Gruppe D Programming Language - XING group D Programming Language
On 02.01.2013 19:24, Chris wrote: A D-ating site? :-) :D Hopefully on the way to something like that... then mainly for business dating ;)
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote: Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. $ sudo apt-get install ruby That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 10:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of Ubuntu, it is no longer supported. Definitely need to stick with LTS version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now. I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from scratch.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:47 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote: Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. $ sudo apt-get install ruby That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too. To be expected in the circumstances since 10.10 is no longer supported. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen. Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail. Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe. P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from scratch. I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of upgrading operating systems. Their policy seems to be you want a new operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Al 02/01/13 19:47, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote: Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. $ sudo apt-get install ruby That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too. I don't know why. In a Ubuntu 10.04.4 LTS, the command: $ sudo apt-get install ruby installs these three packages: ruby ruby1.8 libruby1.8 Otherwise is that ruby version is lower that required. Best regards, -- Jordi Sayol
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen. Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail. Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe. It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual boxes, I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply gave up on virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth. It also nuked all my mail and calender data, which is why I don't use Ubuntu for mail or calender anymore, nor do I use it for music (same thing happened). P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from scratch. I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of upgrading operating systems. Their policy seems to be you want a new operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store. The only actual trouble I had was the installer assumed a screen larger than the one I had, and insisted on putting the [next] button off the bottom of the screen. Argh. P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote: I don't know why. mercury ~ sudo apt-get install ruby [sudo] password for walter: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: linux-headers-2.6.35-22-generic linux-headers-2.6.35-22 Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 Suggested packages: ri ruby-dev ruby1.8-examples ri1.8 The following NEW packages will be installed: libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby ruby1.8 0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 1,841kB/2,010kB of archives. After this operation, 8,266kB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Y WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 ruby Install these packages without verification [y/N]? Y Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main libruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.91.15 80] Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main libruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main ruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/libruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 404 Not Found Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/ruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 404 Not Found E: Unable to fetch some archives, maybe run apt-get update or try with --fix-missing? mercury ~
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 11:05 AM, Russel Winder wrote: To be expected in the circumstances since 10.10 is no longer supported. Looks like I'll have to hold my nose and push the upgrade button, but after this release is settled down. Does the latest Ubuntu work properly with SSD drives? I know 10.10 does not. I have an extra SSD drive I want to try.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 03:20:27 Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19:54 bearophile wrote: Jonathan M Davis: Why? Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions), so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061. And how is that any different from any other release? Two to three months generally of the past few years, so this release has been much delayed in comparison, but that doesn't really change anything. You have the same risk of things breaking that you normally do. Any bug fix risks breaking code. The only difference is that there are more bugs which have been fixed. It's quite possible that way more code broke between 2.059 and 2.060 than it did between 2.060 and 2.061. I see no reason to call out this release as being particularly dangerous. If anyone is concerned about the amount of time between releases, they can see that easily enough in the changelog. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Al 02/01/13 20:28, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote: I don't know why. mercury ~ sudo apt-get install ruby [sudo] password for walter: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: linux-headers-2.6.35-22-generic linux-headers-2.6.35-22 Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 Suggested packages: ri ruby-dev ruby1.8-examples ri1.8 The following NEW packages will be installed: libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby ruby1.8 0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 1,841kB/2,010kB of archives. After this operation, 8,266kB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Y WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 ruby Install these packages without verification [y/N]? Y Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main libruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.91.15 80] Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main libruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main ruby1.8 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1 404 Not Found Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/libruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 404 Not Found Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/ruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 404 Not Found E: Unable to fetch some archives, maybe run apt-get update or try with --fix-missing? mercury ~ You're right. Ubuntu 10.10 is not longer supported, so the repositories are not available. Sorry, I didn't understand you. A rolling release will avoid this problem. -- Jordi Sayol
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Al 02/01/13 19:51, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit: On 1/2/2013 10:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of Ubuntu, it is no longer supported. Definitely need to stick with LTS version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now. I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from scratch. Walter, to avoid this problem you can install a rolling release like Linux Mint Debian Edition, based on Debian testing. You just need to keep it upgraded with mintUpdate manager (shield on panel). Read the Update pack info before. This month is scheduled to be a new LMDE DVD ISO release. Regards, -- Jordi Sayol
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
1/2/2013 11:24 PM, Walter Bright пишет: On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen. Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail. Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe. It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual boxes, I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply gave up on virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth. While I've found them to be quite easy to migrate and use. If virtual hard disk can be found/recovered you don't need the settings and other crap as these are re-created in matter of minutes. There are even pre-constructed images of various OS+software stack to be found on the web. P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much. On latest Windows OS-es almost everything is in AppData\Roaming + AppData\Roaming in \Users directory. Just copying them over and reinstalling the apps seems to work (I only tried Thunderbird and couple of others though). -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 20:09, Russel Winder wrote: I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of upgrading operating systems. Their policy seems to be you want a new operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store. I've been updating a couple of Macs from 10.6 through 10.7 to 10.8 without any problems. I'm still using an old Macbook that was shipped with 10.4, it's running 10.7 now. Although that has had a couple of reinstalls. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 19:51, Walter Bright wrote: I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. That's what backups are for :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 12:01 PM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much. On latest Windows OS-es almost everything is in AppData\Roaming + AppData\Roaming in \Users directory. Just copying them over and reinstalling the apps seems to work (I only tried Thunderbird and couple of others though). Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true. But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 18:53, Walter Bright wrote: The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X. Yeah, that's a requirement. Andrei has ported the Ruby script to shell script and created a pull request: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/installer/pull/10 -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 21:37, Walter Bright wrote: Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true. But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings. Copying the thunderbird profile directory should do the trick: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird I've created a symlink for the newsgroups messages pointing to dropbox to get synchronization. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 01/02/2013 03:37 PM, Walter Bright wrote: But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings. scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine will shove your whole TB directory to the new box. unison and/or rsync will keep it synced. I prefer unison because it's bidi. I don't have any suggestions for automagic cloud sync because I don't like automagic cloud sync. -- Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com +1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 12:47 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 21:37, Walter Bright wrote: Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true. But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings. Copying the thunderbird profile directory should do the trick: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird I've suffered trying to figure out that page many times. It's exactly why a button is needed.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 12:56 PM, Matthew Caron wrote: On 01/02/2013 03:37 PM, Walter Bright wrote: But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild. I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings. scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine will shove your whole TB directory to the new box. Doesn't work on Windows. Anyhow, the TB documentation never says this. Nor does that help you if you just want to move account settings over rather than the entire 10 years worth of mail. (I generally limit what I put on my laptop, in case I lose it!) What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing that for anything else?
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 12:36 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 19:51, Walter Bright wrote: I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one. That's what backups are for :) Having backups doesn't work so good when the versions and settings change with a new OS.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 13:18:02 Walter Bright wrote: What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing that for anything else? I don't know. kmail has basically the same problem. It drives me nuts that you can't export accounts. It makes setting up a new machine a royal pain when you have something like a dozen different e-mail addresses to set up. So, I always try and copy the config files, but I've only figured out which ones those are via trial and error, and sometimes things get screwed up enough that you just have to start from scratch again, which is no fun at all. Being able to export accounts would be a _huge_ gain. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 11:24 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual boxes, I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply gave up on virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth. Host file problem should self-organize on reinstall. What you had isntalled is a question of regularly doing: dpkg --get-selections /some/place/you/remember/on/backup/machine SSH keys can be a problem. I don't do virtual machines, but deletion sounds like it is actually another problem. Virtual machines are great for training rooms. It also nuked all my mail and calender data, which is why I don't use Ubuntu for mail or calender anymore, nor do I use it for music (same thing happened). Over-reaction to the wrong issue. Evolution is entirely fine for mail and calendar, I use it all the time on Debian and Fedora. Playing music with rhythmbox also works fine on Debian and Fedora. Also with mediatomb as a server. Where were your backups. I can vapourize a Debian/Fedora dual boot machine and have it up and running with the last backup up state in 2 hours. In the meantime I can be working on another machine and then have everything sync up in a matter of minutes. Losing mail and data and OS configuration sounds like a lack of proper sys admin approach. The only actual trouble I had was the installer assumed a screen larger than the one I had, and insisted on putting the [next] button off the bottom of the screen. Argh. I'd agree there, I had similar problems with the Ubuntu installer, which was turned into something horrible, but may have since evolved to be something usable. I have never had any such problems with Debian or Fedora installers. P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much. I think we can blame DOS and then Windows for enshrining the idea that all configuration information should be stored in C:\ and never replicated anywhere. Sadly the XDG filestore specification is good but has some glaring problems replicating configuration and cache files across machines. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 1:29 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 13:18:02 Walter Bright wrote: What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing that for anything else? I don't know. kmail has basically the same problem. It drives me nuts that you can't export accounts. It makes setting up a new machine a royal pain when you have something like a dozen different e-mail addresses to set up. So, I always try and copy the config files, but I've only figured out which ones those are via trial and error, and sometimes things get screwed up enough that you just have to start from scratch again, which is no fun at all. Being able to export accounts would be a _huge_ gain. The most miserable of all is Microsoft Outlook Express, which stores all the info in hidden directories that are down a long chain of paths filled with directory names that are GUID identifiers. Then, the mail files themselves are in some secret binary format. I had some back and forth with MS support on that, as I was trying to restore my OE email from a backup image. They were genuinely mystified why I would ever want to save/restore my email data. I told them I was never going to use OE again because of that issue, which baffled them further. Fortunately, TB was able to automatically import the OE mail files. Why TB cannot automatically import TB files is another baffling mystery.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 20:38:36 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true. But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address book, but not the mail database. A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole farkin' thing. Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless screens and config settings. Portable software is your friend. http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/thunderbird_portable
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 14:14:54 UTC, David Eagen wrote: I have noticed my project doesn't compile with 2.061 when it did with 2.060. I am using a few different static libraries, one of them is thrift. I had to recompile the libraries I use with 2.061 which meant I had to rebuild thrift and the thrift generated libraries. Once I did that I could compile just fine. But before that I got the errors below. Hm, the errors you are getting _do_ look like a typical Phobos modules vs. binaries mismatch. Thrift should work fine on 2.061, and if you apply the following patches, it should pass all the tests (trivial fixes, but they haven't been merged been in yet): https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/THRIFT-1814 David
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 1:32 PM, Russel Winder wrote: It also nuked all my mail and calender data, which is why I don't use Ubuntu for mail or calender anymore, nor do I use it for music (same thing happened). Over-reaction to the wrong issue. Evolution is entirely fine for mail and calendar, I use it all the time on Debian and Fedora. Playing music with rhythmbox also works fine on Debian and Fedora. Also with mediatomb as a server. rhythmbox is a miserable program (at least on Ubuntu). It has a marvy feature where it randomly stops playing, and only a cold boot will bring it back. It also has random problems syncing with my music file database which is on a Windows shared folder. Getting it to recognize a just-added CD was an exercise in madness. I usually wound up deleting rhythmbox's settings file and starting over. I finally threw in the towel and don't use Ubuntu to play music anymore. Where were your backups. I can vapourize a Debian/Fedora dual boot machine and have it up and running with the last backup up state in 2 hours. In the meantime I can be working on another machine and then have everything sync up in a matter of minutes. Losing mail and data and OS configuration sounds like a lack of proper sys admin approach. I'll admit my backups were less than stellar. I stupidly clicked the upgrade Ubuntu button first. I'll also admit to not having a whole lot of patience with the problems with it.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
All I can say is I've never looked back since abandoning Canonical linuxes. And Debian in general, really. Hooray for Gentoo. More on-topic: I do look forward to playing around with UDA's and seeing what kind of strange voodoo I can cook up with them. Been anticipating this release for eons, it seems.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 23:58:08 Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote: All I can say is I've never looked back since abandoning Canonical linuxes. And Debian in general, really. Hooray for Gentoo. Glutton for punishment are we? I used to use it and got sick of stuff breaking on me during updates (if Walter doesn't like dealing with updates on Ubuntu, I'd be shocked if he liked dealing with updates on Gentoo). I use Arch these days, since it provides a lot of the benefits of Gentoo without anywhere near as many of the headaches. But if I had to recommend an easy-to-use distro, I'd recommend OpenSuSE, but as with all such things, YMMV. For better or worse, Ubuntu is very popular. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 23:34:42 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: I'd be shocked if he liked dealing with updates on Gentoo). I use Arch these days, since it provides a lot of the benefits of Gentoo without anywhere near as many of the headaches. +1 for Arch. Have used almost everything Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse and ended up with Arch Linux. I am happy with it for almost two years now and wouldn't even consider switching to something else :) It's a bit tougher to set up (though setup process is quite well documented), but once you install it - no bothers anymore! Updates are as simple as 'pacman -Syu' (or some gui tool), it has excellent Wiki which had solution for every single problem I needed to solve and friendly forums and IRC. Rolling release is a cool model too - I decide when I want to upgrade and system is always up-to-date.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 2:45 PM, deadalnix wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 07:01:02 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote: I am getting a whole _mess_ of warning: statement not reachable on everything after a final switch. I can confirm this. Freaking annoying (and not really convincing me that D is stable) ! Please post example to bugzilla.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 2:58 PM, Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote: Been anticipating this release for eons, it seems. Me too. I'm glad to get it out the door, as my head is boiling over with things I want to get done for the next version.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
dimsuz wrote: +1 for Arch. Have used almost everything Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse and ended up with Arch Linux. I am happy with it for almost two years now and wouldn't even consider switching to something else :) Same here. After making my way through the most popular Linux distros, I eventually braved setting up Arch.. and I'll never go back. For me, it's the best OS I've ever used.. granted you make it past the setup and aren't afraid to open a terminal. That's also it's biggest (only?) flaw. Hopefully Manjaro/CinnArch are successful in creating a more user-friendly arch-based distro for the casual user.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 19:42:13 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 03:20:27 Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19:54 bearophile wrote: Jonathan M Davis: But many months have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions), so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061. - Jonathan M Davis Just for D2, 330 issues closed for this release ! Talk about a huge amount of work done. Congrats to everybody, 2013 is looking good !
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 03.01.2013 08:40, Walter Bright wrote: The most miserable of all is Microsoft Outlook Express, which stores all the info in hidden directories that are down a long chain of paths filled with directory names that are GUID identifiers. Then, the mail files themselves are in some secret binary format. I hate OE, it uses a single file for each mail folder, and when this file gets bigger than 2GB (easily possible for the inbox folder and a few years of email with attachments), it cannot open it anymore. So what does is do? It creates a new empty file with the same name, nuking all your emails. And then when you buy Office to get Outlook, it cannot import emails from OE! I easily lost a week when I had to deal with this on my mother's pc... -- Marco Nembrini
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 8:15 PM, Marco Nembrini wrote: On 03.01.2013 08:40, Walter Bright wrote: The most miserable of all is Microsoft Outlook Express, which stores all the info in hidden directories that are down a long chain of paths filled with directory names that are GUID identifiers. Then, the mail files themselves are in some secret binary format. I hate OE, it uses a single file for each mail folder, and when this file gets bigger than 2GB (easily possible for the inbox folder and a few years of email with attachments), it cannot open it anymore. So what does is do? It creates a new empty file with the same name, nuking all your emails. Yowsa, looks like I dodged a bullet with that one. Back in the 90's, I used to use an email program called ccremote. It encrypted the email folders. I lost a lot of email when I forgot the password :-(
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 23:34:42 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 23:58:08 Chris Nicholson-Sauls wrote: All I can say is I've never looked back since abandoning Canonical linuxes. And Debian in general, really. Hooray for Gentoo. Glutton for punishment are we? Not particularly. I've heard plenty of horror stories, but I've yet to experience them -- or rather, I've yet to experience problems on nearly the same scale as what I had with Ubuntu/Kubuntu, and have had with SUSE far in the past. The only flaw I can think of is that occasionally I *forget* to run updates for a couple weeks, and then there's quite a pile of them. But that's going to be the case with any rolling release distro. Nothing at all against Arch (it might be my 2nd favorite); I'm just plenty happy where I am, with everything working just as I want it to.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:18 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. I think that this is at the heart of your mail problems. It means you rely on one and only one computer for email. I would find this unworkable: I find IMAP the only solution that works for me and my collection of laptops and workstation. This has the dies effect of the data stored on the client being removable because it is reconstructible. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 18:34 -0500, Jonathan M Davis wrote: […] But if I had to recommend an easy-to-use distro, I'd recommend OpenSuSE, but as with all such things, YMMV. For better or worse, Ubuntu is very popular. I remain with Debian Unstable as it works for me, but you do sometimes have to be careful about some upgrades, it being generally a continuous deployment system. Debian Testing is really not what it claims. I used to use it but it has more problems than Unstable as a day-to-day use distribution. Fedora does look good as a Linux/GNOME system, especially compared to Ubuntu. I think Mint is now the Debian-based but not Debian distro of choice amongst the cogniscenti. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
