Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Take over of Novell
Le Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:04:27 -0800, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net a écrit : On 11/22/2010 10:10 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation? Actually, isn't this sort of thing the reason TDF was created to begin with? Yes exactly. And I'm glad to have Michael, Thorsten and the Suse team on board with us, hopefully for a very long time. Cheers, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell
Le Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:31:00 +1300, Graham Lauder yori...@openoffice.org a écrit : On Tuesday 23 November 2010 07:10:31 Ian Lynch wrote: Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation? And my question would be; do any of the 882 patents sold to the Microsoft consortium affect the go-ooo code and therefore expose TDF to patent actions? I don't know, but even without it we're exposed to the Sun-MS patent deal that was only covering StarOffice. Software patents are a shame, and ought to be fought, so in our case it's cholera or malaria you're choosing... Best, Charles. Cheers GL -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?
Thanks for that link, it was a real help. I can't say I'm pleased, but the decision has been made and I will not go against the steering community. Something I did note was that a-lot of the points we have raised match theirs concept-for-concept if not word-for-word. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Christoph Noack christoph.no...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi Sean, since it is a bit hard for me to find the right place to jump in, here some decision on the version numbers question - the Steering Committee discussed that some weeks ago. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Version_Numbering_Scheme_for_LibreOffice : Hope that helps! Christoph Am Samstag, den 20.11.2010, 10:26 +1100 schrieb Sean White: As a concerned user, if LibreOffice is meant a independent office project derived from the OpenOffice code then why do we still use their version numbering system. Wouldn't it be better to start from 1 to reinforce in peoples minds that we are a separate project. -- Sean White, Concerned User -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Sean White, I've Seen the Cow Level -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Take over of Novell
On Tuesday 23 November 2010 21:14:39 Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Le Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:04:27 -0800, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net a écrit : On 11/22/2010 10:10 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation? Actually, isn't this sort of thing the reason TDF was created to begin with? Yes exactly. And I'm glad to have Michael, Thorsten and the Suse team on board with us, hopefully for a very long time. Cheers, Charles. Amen to that -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?
Marc Paré schrieb: [...] IMO, the user should always be left in control of the extensions. If they are so necessary, then they should be coded in and not be called extensions. +1 I have a non removable Zulu hyphenation dictionary from 2008, but no Help. Rainer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Moderator problem
Hi, :-) I'm just curious... what is the moderator's role? do all messages get filtered by a human? how does a moderator operate? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Moderator problem
Replied to offline. //James On Nov 23, 2010, at 13:54 , David Nelson wrote: Hi, :-) I'm just curious... what is the moderator's role? do all messages get filtered by a human? how does a moderator operate? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions
On 11/22/2010 06:31 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote: Hi, On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:03:35AM -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote: unsuspecting users to the same problem that OOo has been famous for: there is no obvious way to start to install the files. Dependencies for dpkg -i *.deb? each .deb have to be met, but nothing indicates the order with which to install them. When dealing with 52 .deb files it's like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle where all distinguishing marks have been filed off. Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know dpkg. Seriously. This is not the case, many people on debian based systems are new to linux. Linux Mint and Ubuntu both use debian as their base. These are some of the best distros for new users, who usually have a fear of the terminal and typing command arguments. It would make sense for LibreOffice to make it an easy for new and inexperienced users to both use and test the suite:-) . It would be much easier if there were a single meta-package that would act as the start point. Failing that, at least an ordered list that an http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR. Grüße/Regards, René -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:24:00 +1100, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote: One of the things i LOVE about open source software is the ability for me to ask someone else to code something or port something that i cant do myself. So my solution to your problem of incompatible extensions is to set up a new mailing list for OO to LO extension porting. the public can send the extension which the people on the mailing list can then port over. Sorry, I can't hold back here :). You LOVE open source because you can ask others to do what you want without you having to do it yourself? I am afraid that is not going to work out, people won't work on things they don't want to work on, just because you tell them so :-). Besides, resources are scarce. WHY should we require people to port all hundreds of OOo extensions over to LO (and keep them up to date), just because you don't like the current numbering scheme? They could rather work on improving LO at the same time. Once the code base diverge so much that the APIs become incompatible, we can talk about porting again, but I don't see the point of porting just for the sake of it. Sebastian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions
On 11/22/2010 11:50 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote: original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of individual .deb files. This is not user friendly! Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim. That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument. On 22/11/10 15:07, Rene Engelhard wrote: There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed) This is a rather hostile attitude to show towards end users and an If those end users don't think, yes, you're right. based operating systems in the past. If your position were to be taken to its logical conclusion we should scrap LibreOffice, which afterall is pandering to the masses with its use of GUI and WYSIWYG, in favour of TeX. No, my position taken to the logical conclusion would not be that (as I think there's use cases for GUIs - I didn't say anything against them here but just mentioned that dpkg is basics - we don't need GUIs but that we need a drivers license for computers. Mandatory for everyone who wants to use PCs. The same as if you would not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know where the steering wheel or the gas pedal is, neither would you be allowed to use a gear car when you only know automatic. Learn basics, or live with people telling you that you need to look at basics before you do stuff. Grüße/Regards, René Personally I think that the mailing list admin needs to message these people. Libre and FLOSS by definition are for the ignorant masses and not for the select few who don't care for a visual experience. It is sad to see people flaming new users so soon after this project was started. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Content of Beta3 Windows Install-Packages
Hi plino, Am 23.11.2010 15:41, schrieb plino: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n1953706/LO_multi.png http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n1953706/LO_all_lang.png Thanks! The BrOffice is the same installer with a different name because the name OpenOffice was already copyrighted by another company in Brasil. Therefore OpenOffice is called BrOffice in Brasil. I know. Currently this probably doesn't make any sense for LibreOffice because this problem does not apply to LibreOffice... Ah. I was wondering if there was any sense, that I didn´t see. :-D Cheers, Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Content of Beta3 Windows Install-Packages
Hi Stefan, *, On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote: Hi, * Which languages are included in LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe ? * Which languages are included in LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_all_lang.exe ? I forwarded/posted the same question to the libreoffice developer list (as that is the place where the folks who build the installers hang out are: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2010-November/003228.html * What is the meaning of BrOffice_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe ? (By md5 it seems to be identical to LibO_3.3.0_Win_x86_install_multi.exe) Brazilian version has traditionally (i.e. OOo-times) been a different package/has not been called OpenOffice.org in Brazil, but BrOffice due to trademark issues. But AFAIK the plan is to get rid of the additional packaging, but to do any branding stuff (if necessary) in the same product. So yes, they are identical. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Three things to not forget to make LibreOffice (and ODF) succeed
Efficient support, explain fragmentation, put ODF first: http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/11/three-things-to-not-forget-to-make-libreoffice-and-odf-succeed/ Marco -- Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you:http://digifreedom.net/node/84 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hello, On Nov 23, 2010, at 10:42 AM, M. Fioretti wrote: As per subject: http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/11/a-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-libreoffice/ I reviewed your proposal and think you make very good points. As I personally haven't closely followed the user support mailing list over the years, I don't feel qualified to respond in too much detail on those points. :) However, have we considered adopting a knowledge base type interface to supplement our user support? One I worked with in the past allowed users to input their questions, and would automatically direct them toward similar questions that had been asked and answered already. If they don't find a sufficient response from the existing knowledge base, their question is automatically forwarded through to a human support person, who interacts with the user through a web application. Their answer is then added to the growing repository for the next user. This is different from a basic FAQ published in any ordinary CMS, because of the automatic search for similar questions, and because after passing that threshold, it leads directly to a human support person (or volunteer). Searching quickly for open source knowledge base I came upon the following useful discussion: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/284477/anybody-knows-any-knowledge-base-open-source I don't think the responses fill all of the criteria I discussed above, yet they may point us in a useful direction. Has anyone else worked with tools like I describe here? Do you think it makes sense to hybridize our support offering in this way, remove the challenge of an email list for many users, archive responses in an easy web-accessible location, and yet allow our support volunteers to continue using email or choose a web interface to do their part? -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1954657.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws
On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 17:52 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: 1) the ESC does not get to vote, it's not elected, and it's a technical body. The AB can propose candidate(s), but cannot vote. 2) BoD appoints the CH, by vote or by consensus. People can nominate themselves and send their nomination to the BoD no later than 2 months before the election date. The AB can also nominate one or several candidates and sends the name(s) to the BoD no later than 2 months before the election. That way, it's easier and faster. Any thoughts? Sounds much cleaner simpler to me :-) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org List archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/steering-discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Take over of Novell
On 11/23/2010 05:05 AM, Graham Lauder wrote: On Tuesday 23 November 2010 21:14:39 Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Le Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:04:27 -0800, NoOpgl...@sbcglobal.net a écrit : On 11/22/2010 10:10 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation? Actually, isn't this sort of thing the reason TDF was created to begin with? Yes exactly. And I'm glad to have Michael, Thorsten and the Suse team on board with us, hopefully for a very long time. Cheers, Charles. Amen to that can you clarify what you mean by having And I'm glad to have Michael, Thorsten and the Suse team on board with us, hopefully for a very long time. are these people that used to be employed by novell, have left and are now working with TDF? Personally, off topic i know, I stopped any association with SUSE once they jumped in bed with M$ (no matter how, through what subsidiary/organization/movement/non-profit or contractual agreement). The Patent and copyright infringement discussions are going to get very interesting. I for one like to acknowledge all the comments made by trust worthy adversary in the open source world and understand why they say implementing any sort of mono functionalities or dependencies is a large risk for your project and open source in general. -- Thanks for your time, Nathan Heafner -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org -- Thanks for your time, Nathan Heafner -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?
On 11/23/2010 05:37 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: Marc Paré schrieb: [...] IMO, the user should always be left in control of the extensions. If they are so necessary, then they should be coded in and not be called extensions. +1 I have a non removable Zulu hyphenation dictionary from 2008, but no Help. Rainer This isnt practical with the user base we service. Each user has different expectations and needs from LibO, there for each user may need different plugins, extensions, templates, etc etc. This is giving the user true control and choice. With that said, the popularity of plugins in itself(automatic installation, removal, and updating) will be beneficial to LibO in the general scheme of things. -- Thanks for your time, Nathan Heafner -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Take over of Novell
Hi Nathan, On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:13 -0500, Nathan wrote: can you clarify what you mean by having And I'm glad to have Michael, Thorsten and the Suse team on board with us, hopefully for a very long time. are these people that used to be employed by novell, have left and are now working with TDF? We are still Novell employees and nobody has left! Regards, -- Cédric Bosdonnat LibreOffice hacker http://documentfoundation.org OOo Eclipse Integration developer http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Nathan nathan1...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org Forums and wikis both have their uses, but a wiki is limited by the keywords the user knows, its existing content, and its search function, and a forum is prone to developing long, meandering questions/discussions and lots of duplicate questions. As Benjamin demonstrated (accidentally), they're not ideal for question-and-answer discussions. He linked to stackoverflow.com, which is not an open-source platform, but is a great precedent for a support system. It integrates the concepts of a blog, wiki, forum, and Digg/Reddit into one system that seems to work well for asking and getting answers to questions. Superuser.com is actually the place to ask questions about the use of software rather than Stackoverflow, which is for development. OpenOffice.org actually has 181 questions in their own tag on this site. There are no questions about LibreOffice yet. Should we start a new tag for LibreOffice and maintain a presence there? -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On 2010/11/23 11:29 AM Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Michael Wheatland schrieb: I use Gmail and I reply by clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation list. I don't know Gmail, but what You tell from it's not a very mailing list capable mail client. Gmail very capable for mailing lists. Michael isn't using the right reply button. There is a reply button (two actually) each specific message in the thread at the bottom of the message. The reply button at the very bottom to the conversation is to reply to the last message in the thread. Note: Gmail isn't a client. It is an online mail service accessed through your browser -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions
Hi René, *, René Engelhard schrieb: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 07:34:13PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is not a good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a computer or using office software ;o)). Ah, so we should let people not care about their PCs, how to use it, keep it safe etc. and thus affecting all, spreading viruses, spam and having botnets active? No, it's never a good idea to replace one evel with another one and I can't remember having advocated that. :o)) So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven one. What the hell does that have to do with people using PCs getting their basics straight? Correctly, it doesn't. Yes, You are right. It was the attitude carried by Your advice which made me writing that statement. I missed the respect regarding the OP's work, deciding to install Libreoffice, getting wired, and *writing a report* about that. We definitly *want* that information. (Otherwise I agree with you, we can argue about marketing and I agree for some deeper features you need docs, but come on, are you also going to tell people on how to use their mouse?) Using a mouse (I learned that 36 years old in five minutes) and installing deb based software *not hold by a repo*, are incomparably different levels of technical practice :o)). Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Community driven Project (was:Request: Installation Instructions)
Hi Italo, *, Italo Vignoli schrieb: [..] The fact that I am technically illiterate (and I like being so) does not make me a worse user, or one with less rights. Communities around the world have made OOo a better product because they have cared about users, although the project was clearly driven by developers not able to show any respect for users (and where the community was not there the project has been marginally successful). TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project cannot be built on a group prevailing on others. There is nothing to add to that statement. And You are not alone achiving this! ;o)) Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
There are open software stacks with various CMS tools where you can combine wiki, blog, forum, and FAQ functionality together. A community site could have articles on the front end to help demonstate features, provide tutorials, expose new templates and extensions, etc. Users can provide comments and questions on the articles as well as post in the forums. Duplicate questions are bound to occur in forums. The problem with that is retyping the same solutions time and time again. But if there is an integrated wiki/knowledgebase in the site, then you can link to the solution there. My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community. Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online resources? -- T. J. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Kevin Vermeer reemrevni...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Nathan nathan1...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org Forums and wikis both have their uses, but a wiki is limited by the keywords the user knows, its existing content, and its search function, and a forum is prone to developing long, meandering questions/discussions and lots of duplicate questions. As Benjamin demonstrated (accidentally), they're not ideal for question-and-answer discussions. He linked to stackoverflow.com , which is not an open-source platform, but is a great precedent for a support system. It integrates the concepts of a blog, wiki, forum, and Digg/Reddit into one system that seems to work well for asking and getting answers to questions. Superuser.com is actually the place to ask questions about the use of software rather than Stackoverflow, which is for development. OpenOffice.org actually has 181 questions in their own tag on this site. There are no questions about LibreOffice yet. Should we start a new tag for LibreOffice and maintain a presence there? -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
Hi Christian Lohmaier, *, Christian Lohmaier schrieb: On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Gmail very capable for mailing lists. Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated: When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new one) as it will remove the references from the reply. Can't confirm. References are O.K. here. So it's an accidently damage or a gmail ./. gmail prob (If I interpreted headers well). Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com lohmaier%2booofut...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi Larry, *, On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Gmail very capable for mailing lists. Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated: When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new one) as it will remove the references from the reply. This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with [tdf-discuss] and some replies get Re: inserted after it while others insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of subjects like: 1. [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist 2. Re: [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist 3. [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist 4. Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist Having these four different styles instead of just two is what causes conversations to break. gmail (and possibly others) use the first and second styles, and don't recognize that the third is a reply to the first, generating the fourth. What clients generate the third? One solution to the problem is to agree on using either the second or third style, and punish anyone who uses the banned version. This will be difficult, as most people don't realize where the Re: goes in their own replies, and some mail clients will default to the other version. The better solution in my mind is to remove the [tdf-discuss] part of the subject. I know it's the [tdf-discuss] mailing list because of the address discuss@documentfoundation.org and the signature, and this information doesn't have to be duplicated in the subject line. Most modern mail clients include some filter functionality to help differentiate between mailing lists - browsing a list of subjects and expecting anyone who communicates with you to label themselves with a token in brackets is rather old-fashioned. Also, having that token in every subject is redundant when browsing properly filtered emails. -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
Hi Larry, *, On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM Christian Lohmaier wrote: 2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it. Oh yes, it was changed (but according to usual etiquette, thus was very likely done by gmane itself) It was changed from: [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions) (Friedrich) To just [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist (your post) When changing subjects in usenet/mailinglists it is common to include the old subject like this New Subject (was: old subject) and then remove the (was: old subject) in replies (also you usually don't include the Re: in the old subject) The point is you claimed gmail being very capable for mailinglists, I usually agree, but the references issue bugs me. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community. Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online resources? In my experience an online forum/help/FAQ does NOT replace an offline help, it is a complement. There is always the need for an offline FAQ (included in the help files) which must be compiled by humans from the most frequent questions at the forum (ideally already organized in the wiki) If people keep asking the same questions (hence they are considered FAQ) it's because it's not clear enough on the standard help file how to perform those tasks. Even assuming that many people don't bother to read before asking, if a given task generates repeated questions it means that it should be included in the online and offline FAQs as a first approach and that the GUI itself should be re-designed to make it easier to find the function. I know this is easier said than done. But it is the key to a successful program. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1955402.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On 2010/11/23 12:29 PM Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Larry, *, On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Larry Gusaaslarry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM Christian Lohmaier wrote: 2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it. Oh yes, it was changed (but according to usual etiquette, thus was very likely done by gmane itself) It was changed from: [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions) (Friedrich) To just [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist (your post) I had missed that. (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions) was removed in my reply. I just checked and it was removed by Thunderbird. It seems that Thunderbird automatically removes the was part of the subject. Not Gmail's or Gmane's fault. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM Kevin Vermeer wrote: This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with [tdf-discuss] and some replies get Re: inserted after it while others insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of subjects like: Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane. None of the post I get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line. As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client. Some insert it before, some after [tdf-discuss]. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 08:57:45 AM -0800, plino (pedl...@gmail.com) wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. The problem I describe did not happen because OOo had no support forum. They happened because many volunteers did not want to use them but the official mailing list sucked big time because of certain policies. Now, in my **opinion**, forums are very limiting and ineffective tools compared to email and mailing lists. But this is my opinion, so we can safely ignore it. What I know for a FACT, which is embarassingly evident from the ooo-users archives, is that, regardless of your opinion, there ARE many people who were only available to provide support by email, were driven away by the dumb strategies I describe in the article and never used the forums that OOo does have. So, if you want to engage those potential contributors too, you have to give them an email environment that is purged for good from certain bright ideas. If you don't want that, no problem. The form that sends the help request can certainly send it to a forum instead of a mailing list, if that's the only channel TDF decides to offer for LibreOffice. Marco -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 14:29, M. Fioretti a écrit : On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 08:57:45 AM -0800, plino (pedl...@gmail.com) wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. The problem I describe did not happen because OOo had no support forum. They happened because many volunteers did not want to use them but the official mailing list sucked big time because of certain policies. Now, in my **opinion**, forums are very limiting and ineffective tools compared to email and mailing lists. But this is my opinion, so we can safely ignore it. What I know for a FACT, which is embarassingly evident from the ooo-users archives, is that, regardless of your opinion, there ARE many people who were only available to provide support by email, were driven away by the dumb strategies I describe in the article and never used the forums that OOo does have. So, if you want to engage those potential contributors too, you have to give them an email environment that is purged for good from certain bright ideas. If you don't want that, no problem. The form that sends the help request can certainly send it to a forum instead of a mailing list, if that's the only channel TDF decides to offer for LibreOffice. Marco Hi Marco If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Cheers Marc Drupal Web Dev. Team Member -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?
Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote in message news:ich2tj$ol...@dough.gmane.org... Le 2010-11-23 12:33, Nathan a écrit : On 11/23/2010 05:37 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: Marc Paré schrieb: [...] IMO, the user should always be left in control of the extensions. If they are so necessary, then they should be coded in and not be called extensions. +1 I have a non removable Zulu hyphenation dictionary from 2008, but no Help. Rainer This isnt practical with the user base we service. Each user has different expectations and needs from LibO, there for each user may need different plugins, extensions, templates, etc etc. This is giving the user true control and choice. With that said, the popularity of plugins in itself(automatic installation, removal, and updating) will be beneficial to LibO in the general scheme of things. Agreed. But then there needs to be - a *proper* management system so that one's extensions are not blown away by new versions - a *proper* scheme for notifying a user when a new [sub-[sub-]... version of LO invalidates an extension - a scheme whereby a user can easily remove *any* extension, even those that came *in the box with LO - a scheme whereby a user can easily re-install *any* extension that came *in the box* with LO and was removed by the above scheme. - a *proper* scheme whereby users can request notification of upgrades to *individual* extensions My main relationship with extensions has come from using Firefox. Yes, extensions are great but it is nevertheless extremely frustrating when an upgrade to FF comes along that invalidates an extension one has been relying on for quite a while. LO really must try to avoid this if it is to rely on extensions in the future. The same points apply to templates, plugins etc. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 09:13:16AM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2010-11-22 9:11 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists learning *anything*. And that's a problem. I would say that's *the* problem. Why? People like this will *always* have a problem with *any* software updates that change *anything* - so, why worry about it? Not worrried. Just an observation. Just keep improving the software (e.g., I was really happy to see the prompt for making the file associations for the Microsoft formats back in the GUI in the LibO 3.3b3 installer), improve the FAQ's and Help files and Installation instructions based on feedback from the user community, and don't worry about 'problems' that you have no control over. Where in my post did I indicate that I was worried? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions
Hi Rene, all, it seems that your mail started an evolution in this thread leading to negative feelings and reproaches that should be avoided. The Steering Committee asked me and Cor Nouws to have a eye on this (and the other lists we're subscribed to) in order to keep discussions on topic and avoid misbehavior. Sorry for stepping in so late, but I'm unable to be present 24 hours a day... Rene Engelhard schrieb: Hi, On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:03:35AM -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote: unsuspecting users to the same problem that OOo has been famous for: there is no obvious way to start to install the files. Dependencies for dpkg -i *.deb? each .deb have to be met, but nothing indicates the order with which to install them. When dealing with 52 .deb files it's like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle where all distinguishing marks have been filed off. Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know dpkg. Seriously. This is your personal opinion, you didn't blame anybody - nothing to say against it. But as the follow-up turned out to become more personal, I want to add my comments here (dedicated to all posters here in this thread): Your expectation is only valid for yourself - you can't tell anybody else to follow your opinion. People with different experience and opinions should never be treated as fools or idiots. In a volunteer community nobody has the right to force anybody to do something. If it might be a bug-fix, an addition to the readme, a piece of documentation, artwork or (really necessary at the moment) work on the LibreOffice website. But on the other hand nobody is allowed to exclude a contribution just because of his or her opinion, political or other interests. If there are valid reasons they have to be discussed and decided - but this should never be done by any individual. I don't know if René's position not to include additional installation instructions is shared by the majority of developers. It only shows that we should have a closer look at the Community Bylaws. The board deciding on including or excluding features and code contributions is *not* the Engineering Steering Committee [ESC]. Their task is to provide technical guidance, settle technical disputes ... The Board of Directors [BoD] - elected by all approved members of community - has to provide (among others) strategic planning, dispute settlement and community guidance, so it's their duty to find our community's way if there are oppositional interests in different groups of our community. But normally our intentions are not controversial at all: We want to improve our office suite, get more people to install and use it and find new contributor and more high quality contributions. So - to come back to the very topic here: Thanks to David [1] there will be a bug filed to include his how-to (might be based on NoOp's posting[2]) in the Linux version of LibreOffice. I don't see a reason why René would have to be the one to do this inclusion, if there is anybody else able to do so. If there are more than personal reasons not to include it, this should be mentioned in the bug report and brought back to this list for further consideration. I think here on this list is the best mixture of just users and people with profound knowledge of our product. I'd love to see some input by our UX expert(s), but this seems to me a basic political question: Do we want to make it as easy as possible to install and use our product on every supported platform? Only in case there is no common agreement on this topic the SC (being in the position of the BoD until the first election) should be involved. So please let's keep on the good work and avoid insulting each other just because we're individual people with different opinions on one or another topic. Best regards Bernhard [1]: http://go.mail-archive.com/eJqKKG7fNBgkKexh2MZnTm21RXA= [2]: http://go.mail-archive.com/a2cePZ-wvSelzyGuwyfsWvRJhSM= -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 15:11, plino a écrit : If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Marc, does it provide Live support such as a one-on-one Chat (like Facebook or Gtalk) or a IRC type page? I occasionally use the Gnumeric and Abiword IRC channels to get fast, direct answers and it works extremely well. I'll leave foward a note on to Michael who will be able to fill you in with the details. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. I totally agree. Having to create an account and to log in is usually enough to make most people give up (I haven't registered to Bugzilla...) That is why I suggested on another topic that posting would only require a valid email and solving a captcha (to avoid bots and spam). The same could be applied to the support forum. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1957000.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-11-23 15:36, Robert Derman a écrit : I have said this in the OOo discuss list, and I think it bears repeating here. One of the biggest problems causing the need for users especially new ones to need help is the lack of a good users manual. The OOo documentation site is very confusing, there are too many manuals to choose from and nothing says anything like If you are a new user, this is the one you want. I could be wrong in this, but I don't think that I am. The only module I ever use with any regularity is Writer. If I can figure out how to use it, I might use Calc for a personal check register, likewise I might use Base for a list of all my DVD collection, but it's Writer that I use daily. I suspect that I am fairly typical in this, and that perhaps 50% or more of OOo, and now LO users use Writer far more than they use the other applications. A survey might tell us if that is so. Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it. I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. This could be one thing that would set LO apart from other packages that offer good word processors, Even expensive MS basically sucks in the area of manuals and user support. Years ago they used to be much better in this area. Good user support seems to be the first thing that for profit companies give up when they think they can get away with it. Now it is time for me to climb down off of my soapbox Robert Derman Hi Robert. This could probably be easily done. However, adding it to the download may not be a good idea as some of us (there are qutie a few) are already worried about the size of the download. Maybe make advertising of the download a little more obvious would be the solution. Then the user would only have to download the manual at that point. I will leave a note to the documentation team and se what they think of this. I'm sure they will come back with usefull information. Cheers Marc Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. Perhaps there could be a way for people to use credit card or Pay Pal to order a disk at a price that would help support TDF and yet be fairly reasonable. I think expecting others to provide this was a mistake with OOo, because most sold the disk at an excessive price, usually renaming the package so that people wouldn't realize that they were actually being ripped off. I am a subscriber to NetFlix and the DVD disks that they send me are shipped in a simple paper envelope and Tyvek sleeve so I know that fancy padded packages are not required, so disks could be shipped as regular world wide first class mail. I believe that this is certainly something to think about. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
One of LibreOffice's supporters is Mark Shuttleworth / Canonical. They have a lot of experience in shipping Ubuntu disks worlwide for free... Just an idea ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1957198.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Ubuntu will be doing half the work for us as they will also be shipping LibreOffice to all Ubuntu users. I believe that a number of other distributions are planning the same. Now we just need to convince people to upgrade their OS and shipping the CDs is taken care of ;) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Andy Brown wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. Andy On your first point I agree with you, the installation instructions should be in PDF for the reason you state. I do know however that ODF if far more economical of file size than PDF, I have noticed that on documents that I have written with Writer and then output as PDFs. As far as 5x7 that is a guesstimation. What I do know for sure is that when I print manuals out there are usually hugely wasteful margins at all 4 sides when they are printed on 8.5x11 inch paper which is the only size commonly available in the U.S. I actually resent the authors forcing me to waste this much paper! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010/11/23 4:46 PM Michael Wheatland wrote: Now we just need to convince people to upgrade their OS and shipping the CDs is taken care of;) Only for Linux users. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 23/11/10 23:53, Robert Derman a écrit : As far as 5x7 that is a guesstimation. What I do know for sure is that when I print manuals out there are usually hugely wasteful margins at all 4 sides when they are printed on 8.5x11 inch paper which is the only size commonly available in the U.S. I actually resent the authors forcing me to waste this much paper! It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hi Robert, * Robert Derman schrieb: [...] Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. There is already a team working on a downloadable ISO for a DVD containing not only the product, but documentation and other resources too. They started in the Germanophone OOo community as PrOOo-Box (http://www.prooo-box.org) and continue their work for LibreOffice - starting from the German version, but will work on an international level too: http://www.libreofficebox.org/ Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010/11/23 5:01 PM Alexander Thurgood wrote: It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Canada uses Letter. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 23 November 2010 21:25, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hi Robert et al: Here is the information from Jean Hollis Weber from the documentation team. Jean is one of the senior leads on the documentation team. == Marc, thanks for passing this on. Some factual info regarding the OOo user guides: 1) The ODTs of the OOo user guides are available as well as the PDF versions. At one point we were not allowed to put the ODTs on the main OOo website because of license differences, but there are links to where one can get them. 2) In most cases, the PDFs are *smaller* in filesize than the ODTs. 3) The PDFs of the OOo Writer Guide and the other user guides in their current form (for V3.2) are NOT formatted for 5X7, although at least one older version of those books was made available in the PDF used for the pre-printed guide sold through Lulu, which is close to that size. The current are formatted for reading on screen and for printing 2-up on A4/US paper. After complaints from users who wanted to print them, the draft V3.3 guides (and the first draft of the LibO guides) have been reformatted for printing on A4/US paper size. 4) OOo provides the user guides in chapters as well as full books, because we know that often people want only a subset of the information. 5) Surely the answer to if you are a new user, this is the one you want is the book titled _Getting Started with OOo_. Having said all that, I agree that improvements could (and should) be made. I think the current Getting Started with OOo book, at over 350 pages, is much too long. My original intention was to have it no more than 200 pages, but it grew... people kept adding things and it's hard to decide -- or agree upon -- what to cut out. Turning some of the chapters, particularly the chapter on Writer, into stand-alone books of about 100 pages, is a good idea. Expand a bit on what's there and include pointers to more detailed into in the full Writer Guide, which runs around 500 pages. Aside: I would like to split the Writer Guide into two books, one with basic info and one with more advanced topics like master documents and forms. The book of basic info does need to include the basics of style use, because styles are fundamental to so many features of Writer. Shipping a user guide with the product is a good idea, but runs into the practical difficulty of getting stuff written/updated in time. The docs always run behind, mainly because there are not enough people to work on them. --Jean As well, other personal emails suggested that adding it to the download would probably not be acceptable, for the same reasons discussed before. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/23/2010 02:50 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: On 23 November 2010 21:25, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. I think I like this proposal of yours. Basically, you're saying the training is free, but the certification costs. That would definitely make it accessible to people like me. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 19:20, Bernhard Dippold a écrit : Hi Robert, * Robert Derman schrieb: [...] Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. There is already a team working on a downloadable ISO for a DVD containing not only the product, but documentation and other resources too. They started in the Germanophone OOo community as PrOOo-Box (http://www.prooo-box.org) and continue their work for LibreOffice - starting from the German version, but will work on an international level too: http://www.libreofficebox.org/ Best regards Bernhard Thanks for the link Bernhard. Is this group listed anywhere on the OOo website? Where do you think that we would list it on our LibreOffice.org site? This is great! Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 16:50, Ian Lynch a écrit : There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. Thanks for the great suggestion. I believe you had left a copy of this proposal on the ideas page? http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas#LibO_certification And I believe there are talks of the same on this side of the Atlantic (Americas etc.) but I can't find this link any more. Maybe we should piggy back that suggestion onto your suggestion Ian. Great idea! Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 19:55, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2010/11/23 5:01 PM Alexander Thurgood wrote: It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Canada uses Letter. The latest version of documentation will be written up for A4/Letter printing, according to Jean Hollis Weber. I believe that the A4/Letter size covers all countries. You can read more of the documentation response to this thread here: http://go.mail-archive.com/gV-hAAe2bqaIsJGOQzWQEjkVkys= Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 17:52, Michael Wheatland a écrit : On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. We will be providing a system where no signup is required, likely just a recaptcha word challenge and spam filtering. The Drupal messaging system, which will be the main hub of internal/external data transfer including support requests and answers, currently supports Twitter and XMPP (Jabber and Google Talk), both of which can be extended using external infrastructure in order to aggregate and distribute support information in a structured way while keeping a record of the transactions which people can browse/search within the website. Michael Wheatland Thanks Michael. It will be nice when we are able to use it. Nice to see no signup. Hopefully this will help solve the help request from non members. We certainly do not want to ignore them, but rather help them and maybe convince them to join our membership and help out. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.comwrote: On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM Kevin Vermeer wrote: This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with [tdf-discuss] and some replies get Re: inserted after it while others insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of subjects like: Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane. None of the post I get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line. As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client. Some insert it before, some after [tdf-discuss]. Why does gmane remove it? It's clearly a part of the subject, if you look at the original headers. Is filtering with tokens in square brackets a standardized or recommended practice? If so, I'll submit a bug report to the gmail team, and that will be the end of it. However, gmane is the only client I'm aware of that handles it in a special way (based on the gmail web interface and Mozilla Thunderbird and Apple Mail tools). If the action it takes is to strip it, then why bother in the first place? -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 18:05, Alexander Thurgood a écrit : Le 23/11/10 23:01, Robert Derman a écrit : I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. How else would one prevent bots from joining the lists and spamming them ? If you want an example, of how bad it has become, join a usenet newsgroup and see how much crud gets posted on it. How else would one provide a given user a modicum of security and identification ? Alex I find that it sometimes does not require much. I had problems with spammers and bots on my sites till I added a captcha where you had to spell words backwards. Spam is now down to a very small trickle and I can now literally monitor new signups and to a quick check to see if they are listed spam logins. Cheers marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 15:11, plino a écrit : If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Marc, does it provide Live support such as a one-on-one Chat (like Facebook or Gtalk) or a IRC type page? I occasionally use the Gnumeric and Abiword IRC channels to get fast, direct answers and it works extremely well. Hi Plino: Michael answered a few posts below or you can read his answer on the archives if you can't find his post. Here is the link: http://go.mail-archive.com/JHR4JfBpt6jdRpxVSERqjNPL8FE= Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?
On 11/23/2010 02:59 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-11-23 14:44, Harold Fuchs a écrit : Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote in message news:ich2tj$ol...@dough.gmane.org... Le 2010-11-23 12:33, Nathan a écrit : On 11/23/2010 05:37 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: Marc Paré schrieb: [...] IMO, the user should always be left in control of the extensions. If they are so necessary, then they should be coded in and not be called extensions. +1 I have a non removable Zulu hyphenation dictionary from 2008, but no Help. Rainer This isnt practical with the user base we service. Each user has different expectations and needs from LibO, there for each user may need different plugins, extensions, templates, etc etc. This is giving the user true control and choice. With that said, the popularity of plugins in itself(automatic installation, removal, and updating) will be beneficial to LibO in the general scheme of things. Agreed. But then there needs to be - a *proper* management system so that one's extensions are not blown away by new versions - a *proper* scheme for notifying a user when a new [sub-[sub-]... version of LO invalidates an extension - a scheme whereby a user can easily remove *any* extension, even those that came *in the box with LO - a scheme whereby a user can easily re-install *any* extension that came *in the box* with LO and was removed by the above scheme. - a *proper* scheme whereby users can request notification of upgrades to *individual* extensions My main relationship with extensions has come from using Firefox. Yes, extensions are great but it is nevertheless extremely frustrating when an upgrade to FF comes along that invalidates an extension one has been relying on for quite a while. LO really must try to avoid this if it is to rely on extensions in the future. The same points apply to templates, plugins etc. Agreed on this as well. We are in the process of re-building the distro. Now is the time to start fine tuning the process of all of these external pieces by which they function. It is important to document clearly the problems and suggest a remedy and someone will step up to the plate and help fix it. We presently have approximately 90 devs (according to a blog somewhere) working on the distro, so once the first official version if out and the pressure is off the devs, they will have a lot to pick from as well as to prioritize. It would be nice if someone on this thread assembled all of the documentation on one post here once the discussions has concluded. If the subject to the thread does not fit, feel free to move it to a subject line that best suits the discussion. These discussions will surely get lost as the subject line does not even discuss extensions. IMO if you are trying to make a credible statement, I would create a new thread with a more descriptive subject line and continue the discussion there. Just keep fine tuning suggestions and someone will help present it to the right people. Marc I would like to chime in. for the record I will use the term Extensions vaguely but am ultimately referring to plugins/add-ons/extensions/ etc etc. I think, in the world of extensions there are some issues present in very popular open source apps That LibO could attempt to solve to create a seamless user experience. The example listed above was excellent regarding updating the main app and having extensions that are non compatible with newer versions. Heres what I have in mind. 1. How extensions are chosen for Core inclusion. (I think this should be done by user statics, the most used extensions should get consideration for core inclusion) 2. Balancing the core app with the appropriate number of extensions. Some projects leave everything to extensions, leaving the user to install 10 - 20 at a time making a lot of work. 3. Extension licensing, very complex. 4. Core developers contributing to extensions. 5. Plugin repo clean up. I think each time a new version of Lib0 is released, when extensions are deemed to be unusable, the developer can either update the extension or have it removed from the listing, moving it to a archived listing if you will. After typing this up, I've found myself pondering the idea of extensions in an office Suite. Mostly, can an office suite be extended? How? If any of the current features were removed for a fresh install to be offered as an extension, would this create a bad user experience? If we keep all current features in core, what else would there be to extend? -- Thanks for your time, Nathan Heafner -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
On 2010/11/23 8:31 PM Kevin Vermeer wrote: On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Larry Gusaaslarry.gus...@gmail.comwrote: On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM Kevin Vermeer wrote: This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with [tdf-discuss] and some replies get Re: inserted after it while others insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of subjects like: Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane. None of the post I get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line. As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client. Some insert it before, some after [tdf-discuss]. Why does gmane remove it? It's clearly a part of the subject, if you look at the original headers. Nope. No [tdf-discuss] in the raw view when reading in a newsreader. Is filtering with tokens in square brackets a standardized or recommended practice? If so, I'll submit a bug report to the gmail team, and that will be the end of it. What has gmail got to do with it? However, gmane is the only client I'm aware of that handles it in a special way (based on the gmail web interface and Mozilla Thunderbird and Apple Mail tools). Gmane is a service to make mailing lists available through a NNTP News Server instead of as emails. It also provides an archive service. It is not an email client. If the action it takes is to strip it, then why bother in the first place? Having the name of the list in the subject is redundant in a newsgroup. Each group (list) is subscribed to separately and is receive by your newreader in a separate group. No filtering to separate lists required. In contrast all emails would be put in your inbox unless you filter them into individual folders. None of the OOo lists I receive through Gmane have the list name in the subject even though the email versions do. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 24/11/10 03:31, Marc Paré a écrit : I find that it sometimes does not require much. I had problems with spammers and bots on my sites till I added a captcha where you had to spell words backwards. Spam is now down to a very small trickle and I can now literally monitor new signups and to a quick check to see if they are listed spam logins. Does such a system also prevent false representation, i.e. someone passing themselves off as another member ? With a userid and password combo, this is much harder to do, it seems (notwithstanding one's computer being hacked and one's ID/pwds being stolen) ? Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] functionality issues discussions
I'm sorry if asking this here is inappropriate, I couldn't find the answer in FAQ, neither another mailing list dedicated for that purpose: what is the proper place/people to resort to, in order to report/resolve issues with current LibreOffice's beta release? Is bugzilla (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/) my best shot here? Thank you -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] functionality issues discussions
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:16:53 +0200, Marwan Gedeon mar...@zaradoustra.com wrote: I'm sorry if asking this here is inappropriate, I couldn't find the answer in FAQ, neither another mailing list dedicated for that purpose: what is the proper place/people to resort to, in order to report/resolve issues with current LibreOffice's beta release? Is bugzilla (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/) my best shot here? Yes Sebastian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
